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Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

Idea

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I don't understand why after almost 10 years this has not been implemented yet. Also, I don't understand why workarounds such as tags are considered a good solution.

Is it that complicated to add more hierarchy levels to the structure?

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I'm using the notebooks the same way I used many categories in EN2.2, as "holders", as opposed to tags/attributes. For instance, I dump recipes into the Recipes notebook, Tips into the Tips notebook, etc. etc.

What I'd like to be able to do is have subnotebooks so that I can have say Tips:Latex, Tips:Linux, Tips:Windows as subnotebooks on Tips. Yes, I can painfully accomplish the same thing with tags, but it's clunky for a couple of reasons:

1. When I want to mark a note as a Tips/Linux note, I have to: (a) move it to the Tips notebook and then (B) tag it with Linux to distinguish it from other tips notes. If I had a separate notebook for Linux, I could just drag the note to that notebook and be done - half as much work. However, I've already got 13 notebooks - adding that many more will make the list unwieldy.

2. One of the joys of clipping to the web version is the ability to pick the destination notebook. Easy, quick, done. (Yes, I can tag there too - but I'd have to remember all my tags then.)

Basically, I find the current tag implementation unwieldy. And frankly, useless. I can't easily select multiple tags, e.g., by clicking on their parent (a la 2.2), so the hierarchy is, well, frankly, completely meaningless. I'm trying to adapt to using it, but it's kind of a square peg/round hole argument.

In addition, I find the saved searches to be pretty much useless for me too. Because I can't organize them in a hierarchy; and because they're not combined with the tag list, and because I can only have 32, I don't see the point in using them.

What this means is that the only left-panel part of EN3 that I find useful at all is the notebooks concept. Unfortunately, they're a flat list, sorted alphabetically. This means that I've actually changed the kind of data I store in EN3. I don't keep anything "important" there, just scraps that I can dump into a notebook willy-nilly.

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To all Guru's that keep saying the same thing about being able to do the same thing with tag. This maybe so but is not the point. 

Clearly for at least the last 9 Years people have been asking for the ability to nest stacks. We pay for this product and this is what we want so do it already.

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Yes - please, add sub-folders / categories / etc.

I am getting the feeling from reading these threads that the EN people are 'refusing' to add this? Is that really true? Why would a company alienate it's user base by refusing to add a feature that so many have requested?

Well, my position is simple, if I find the program a burden to use, and I will if I cannot find a way to organize things the way I am USED to organizing them, then I will simply stop using it - it wont happen right away, however small frustrations will build up over time, and inertia will take its toll. Probably will happen in about - 2 or 3 weeks I imagine. Meanwhile I am looking for a different service - or unless I can get a different feeling from the EN development team.

Also - I can add this feature if they dont want to - just give me teh codez.

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Well that was an interesting read. This thread seems to have devolved into a debate about the relative superiority of tagging over folders a la PlayStation vs. Xbox, PC vs. Mac, Star Trek vs. Star Wars, Android vs. iOS.. [need I continue?]

The reality is the features don't have to be mutually exclusive; you can have both and it would:

  • Add to the multitude of creative ways to use Evernote by having the two systems complement and enhance each other
  • Allow users to choose for themselves which organizational system to use
  • Extend an organizational system that almost everyone is already familiar with into Evernote
  • Add another potentially tier-able feature to entice users to subscribe

Is there something to be lost by adding this feature?

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Has the fact that several of us have asked for subnotebooks been noted as a feature request? Will it be possible in the future? Personally, subnotebooks will be much more useful to me than the tag hierarchy.

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On 11/1/2017 at 9:55 AM, jefito said:

If you follow the history of the thread, then I think you'll probably see that this is an intentional stance on the part of Evernote (look for posts by @engberg), rather than making a virtue out of necessity. My take is that they have tended to emulate GMail's structure more closely than anything else: GMail has some predefined folders, but not nested folders; these are like Evernote notebooks. GMail also has labels, which can be nested, but are more like tags (sadly, the GMail also documentation uses the term 'folders' to describe them, but they are not folder-like in that they can be applied to multiple emails). From everything I've seen from Evernote employee postings, here and elsewhere, they just don't seem to think that nested notebooks are necessary. That being said, there may be added resistance due to cost of implementation, but I really think that the architectural choices here are philosophical.

Good points. An intentional stance that has note changed since 2008?  There are four factors at play here.

1. Information Structure and Organization. gmail is an excellent example showing that "labels" and "folders" are one and the same.  In fact, technically, any filesystem is simply a set of labels (tags) in a directory. The only difference is that tags allow multiple membership, which is a more flexible structure than a directory.  I'd argue that EN users have a higher requirement for organizing active information than an email app, which is ultimately about Inbox Zero and an archive.  This is the actual nature of the technical problem at the root of everyone's frustration.

2. User Stories / Usage Cases. Some people think in terms of folders. Some think in terms of tags. Some prefer search.   Some problems (archival) favor folders and hierarchy. Some problems (research) favor jumping to a tag.  Some (quick answers) favor a search. Take a simple example from Spotify, who has essentially solved this problem:

Playlist: My Deep House Playlist - a list of songs I MUST have together in a specific order (they can also be in other playlists)

Hierarchical Playlists: Electronic > House > Deep House; Electronic > DownTempo;  Electronic > Dubstep; etc.

Tag: Artist names, albums, genres are all forms of tags: Metalcore, punk, Prince, JustinBieber, 

Search: "Free bir..."

3. User Perception.  The fact that this is an ongoing debate 10 years later, means customer expectations are NOT being met.  Perhaps Evernote Team don't understand what the users are asking for. Perhaps they do understand but are dismissive.  Perhaps no one with formal training in ontologies and information structure is even looking at the problem, so EVERYONE is confused both Evernote and Customers.  But regardless, the fact that users aren't free to organize thousands of notes in a way that works for them, and the company and the users are talking past each other for 10 years running? Obviously a communication problem. Poor @engberg left alone to defend the company's position without reinforcements.

4. Technical Deficit.  Evernote has been running a technical Deficit since the beginning. I'm a champion, and supporter and really WANT them to succeed. And they've managed to keep advancing the product so many of us rely on. But the reality of over-stretched technical teams, is long stand-up meetings with long lists of unresolved bugs.  And the lists keep getting longer. If the technical deficit is never addressed, often by biting the bullet and focusing on refactoring ancient code, the problems compound, it shows up in quality, and it shows up in subscription renewals, and those paying customers are the lifeblood of the company.  All it takes is a freshly funded Y-Combinator team who are super smart and super motivated to solve the problem in a cleaner way.  Then when Sequoia backs that team, it will be able to hire the best engineers who've been slaving away to maintain the EN code base for a decade, and the rest is a story told a thousand times in Silicon Valley.

So, hopefully, this one widely desired and poorly understood aspect of information organization can be resolved AND communicated sometime soon.

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Using Tags as Pseudo Notebooks

My knowledge of how to use Tags continues to evolve.  This has been largely due to limitations Evernote has placed on Notebooks.

So, the question is:  How does one make the best use of the tool they have?

Notebooks (NB) are limited to 250.  Tags are virtually unlimited at 100,000.    Tags can have a hierarchical structure of Parent Tag / Child Tag, much like the folders that you see on your computer.
 
So, if we can model NBs as Tags, then we can effectively have unlimited NBs and sub-NBs.  One of the most appealing features of Notebooks (and folders) is how they visually appear.  But what if we can do the same visual layout with Tags?  Stay tuned to learn how.
 
I use tags in two fundamentally different ways:
  1. Pseudo Notebooks -- use in place of where you would normally use a notebook.  This includes sub-notebooks.
  2. Note Categorization -- traditional use of tags to categorize the entity, which can have multiple tags.  Can be used across Notebooks, or in this case, across pseudo NBs.
Using Tags as Pseudo Notebooks
 
Tags can be organized in hierarchies (meaning Parent-Child relationship).  So we can achieve the appearance of Notebooks and sub-notebooks,
 
Without going into a lot of detail at this point, I have created a number of Tags which serve as pseudo Notebooks.   Note that all of the pseudo NBs, actually tags, all have a prefix of ".NB.", which makes it easy to identify which tags are pseudo NBs, and will cause them to appear at the top of the Tag list.
 
One great advantage of using tags as pseudo NBs, is that you can assign multiple pseudo NBs to the same Note.  Can't do that with actual NBs.  Each Note can belong to only one NB.  So this allows me, for example, to assign multiple pseudo NBs of .NB.IT, .NB.Business, and .NB.Personal to the same Note, which is the asset record for a new Mac, used in both business and personal activities.  Now when I search or filter on any of the 3 pseudo NBs it will find the asset record of my Mac.
 
I now have all of my pseudo NBs that appear at the top of my Tag list, and the pseudo NBs can, and do, have sub-pseudo NBs.  Here's an example:
 
EN-Mac-6.3-Pseudo-NBs.png.a04a1800aadfb467f67ab7f7c4956c19.png
 
As a result, I now have a need for ONLY 3 main Notebooks, plus any Notebooks needed for sharing or mobile offline use:
 
EN-Mac-6.3-NBs.png.f9de1465cff90a888dd0a2964742ca68.png
 
Please feel free to post any questions or comments.
 
EDIT:  Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:36:27 PM CST
For more discussion on pseudo notebooks, 
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Although this request is far from being a priority to me, it is the 7th most voted one right now (09/20/2017).

I've learned here that the only discussion which really matters is about # of votes. Fine, but then this request deserves more than the "EN-is-not-for-you" or "go-and-look-for-something-else" usual approaches.

 

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I'm a newb, but I want to add my 2 cents to this. This would be super helpful. 

My example: 

I have notebooks for work, home, etc. I travel a lot and I like to organize my expense reports and I'd prefer to keep that under "work", so basically

Work

   -Expense Reports

  • 2017 October 16-18
  • 2017 October 23-25

   -People

  • -Person A
  • -Person B
  • -Person C

After reading this, I'll start using tags, but typing out the long date format for every expense report is going to be cumbersome. "2017 October 16-18", "2017 October 23-25", etc. 

And I don't know who at Evernote reads this, but the other thing I'd like to say is, I understand the gurus role, but telling people "EN isn't right for you" - that's really not a great answer for people to respond with. If you're trying to sell a product, chasing them away isn't going to help sell. My boss told me about EN but funny enough he uses OneNote. I'm actually really digging EverNote but reading some of the replies really is kind of off-putting. Also, nitpicking between "product" and "subscription".... well, that's just offensive. A subscription is still a product.

Again, just my 2 cents.

Thanks

 

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28 minutes ago, Flier said:

Maybe I missed reading the rule book.  Are others required to prove to you that their viewpoints are valid?  FWIW I am not seeing any proof here that your endlessly repeated tag workarounds to the folder problem are anything but that:  workarounds.  And clumsy ones at that.

I have not found any of the replies from DTLow in this thread to be helpful.  He seems to be strictly on a mission to talk hierarchical thinkers out of being the way they are.  This thread is home for we who have been begging EV for nested, organiz-able folders for years.  It is not helpful to be told (over again) why they aren't necessary, aren't a good idea and why the workarounds work just fine when we of the nesting tribe know they don't fill the void.

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10 minutes ago, Shellah said:

I have not found any of the replies from DTLow in this thread to be helpful.  He seems to be strictly on a mission to talk hierarchical thinkers out of being the way they are.  This thread is home for we who have been begging EV for nested, organiz-able folders for years.  It is not helpful to be told (over again) why they aren't necessary, aren't a good idea and why the workarounds work just fine when we of the nesting tribe know they don't fill the void.

Yeah.  Agreed.  I don't know which is more impressive, his arrogance or the amount of free time he has available to spend on posting the same comments, over and over.  and over.  and over.

Re "I am not interested in boohoo posts."  Is that also a requirement , that your highness be interested in every post?  Or that someone cares whether you are interested or not?  ROFL.

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I just wanted to add my two cents.. I chose Onenote over Evernote based only on subfolders/hierarchy.. Albeit onenote doesnt have much beyond three levels deep (and even the 3rd level of hierarchy is barely noticeable).. My friend is considering Evernote for the Mac but immediately was upset when it revealed no support for subfolders. It has everything but it! She wants to create 100+ notebooks but knows how cluttered it will look.. when she hoped to break them into about 10 categories.. For cleanliness subfolders are needed! She tried the tags and got more confused.. Why should she have to set the tags manually for each note she adds? When she should just be allowed to "select" on a certain notebook and hit add... then it will know file it in that same sub-notebook... without "tagging" it (another tedius chore).

+1 vote for subfolders

Thanks!

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Big mistake, IMHO. Tags are for taxonomy, not organization. Organization with tags resembles spaghetti. Folders are absolute and cleaner.

Anyway, I'm another "I'd go premium, if EN had folders" vote. I'm ready to throw money at you guys if you fix this usability issue.

I don't really understand this "tags are for taxonomy, not organisation" argument. What's the point of taxonomy if not for organisation?! Why on earth would you spend time categorising data if it weren't for the purpose of organising it? It only takes a very subtle shift in thinking to use tags in virtually the same way one might use sub-notebooks or folders. And tags offer many advantages such as being able to add multiple tags to an item, to search for a specific combination of tags, more finely-grained categorisation etc. I agree that the current functionality of tags could be improved, especially in the way that the hierarchy works (to be more like Evernote 2 was, with the ability to treat nested tags as a group and therefore select them all by selecting the "parent").

The only really valid argument I can see here for sub-notebooks is that notebooks behave in a slightly different way to tags; if you are "in" a particular notebook, you stay in that notebook, so any new notes are added to that notebook and any tag you click on will only bring up items in that notebook. Perhaps a more fruitful line of attack for getting the functionality you want would be to focus on getting tags to work more like subnotebooks. So perhaps have a way of being able to select one or more tags and have them automatically applied to any notes that are created while those tags are selected.

A bit if creativity in how you use tags can help overcome the "messiness" that some people associate with them; I use a kind of syntax to organise my tags, so all of my main "projects" (i'm talking "uber projects" here rather than GTD style projects) are prefixed by an "*", and all of my "action" tags are prefixed by an "!" (e.g. "*househunting", "*family", "!read/review" etc). This sorts the tag list in a logical order & reduces mistakes in forgetting tags (if I know I need to add an "action" tag I just type "!" and autocomplete brings up a list of all of these tags - very easy!). All tags without a prefix are more general categorisations of the topic of the note (e.g. "food", "psychology", "money", "law", "advice" etc.). I think the asterisked tags serve a similar function to your subnotebooks, but allow me a great deal more flexibility by being able to assign things to more than one project (the lack of an ability to do this is one thing that I've found very frustrating in some other tools). I actually use notebooks very little as I find them too restrictive - surely there are some things that could go in more than one notebook? With tags there's no need to make a decision between two categories, as they can go in both! I tried to use my notebooks only for very discrete projects with absolutely no overlap with other projects, but I kept finding things that could go in more than one of them, consequently I only have one separate project notebook now and I'll probably get rid of that soon! Apart from this I just have one main notebook, one public notebook, and one for "my thoughts" (which is where I put random ideas that pop into my head, to avoid cluttering up my main notebook with these things). My system also simulates some of the other features that people ask for in notebooks, like being able to associate certain tags with only one notebook - I simply put these tags in the hierarchy under the relevant project tag, so they're all grouped together and easy to find.

@mwg147 - your beer tasting notes shouldn't "pop up by accident" if you're using the current notebook feature to separate personal notes from work notes. If you select your "work" notebook, only notes in that notebook will pop up.

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... but then I don't make much distinction between the idea of tags and folders anyway, to me they are just different metaphors for categorising things. In "real life" I'm forced to use physical location (folders, notebooks, shelves etc) as the main means of categorising things, which is rather restrictive since an item can only be in one place at a time, whereas in Evernote something can be in many places at once (using tags).

Well, the really crucial difference is that real-world containers can have hierarchy. The lack of this in Evernote could be fixed either by having subnotebooks or hierarchical tags, but certainly not (as Dave seems to have suggested a couple of times in the forums) by simulation via the current flat tag system (notwithstanding the fake hierarchical GUI fig-leaf). A good example of what you can't do with Evernote: have a series of Projects, each with a 'refs' section. Yes, you could have 'ProjectX' and 'refs' tags, but then to assign something to ProjectA's refs, you have to tag twice. You don't have to go far along this road before realising how quickly such a system becomes too error-prone and cumbersome to be viable for *organising* (a different problem from *searching*).

I feel some impatience with both sides of this debatelet. Dave's answers sometimes seem uncharacteristically evasive (as if he's telling people that Evernote's facilities are adequate to their needs, when are plainly saying they're not); and the subnotebook proponents seem intent on thcweaming and thcweaming and thcweaming until they get what they want (when the EN guys are plainly entitled to take their app in any direction they please).

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Another voice for sub-notebooks.

Tags are extremely useful, but on their own they are restrictive and unintuitive. Folders and sub-folder mimic the way the human brain works, there is no learning curve involved.

Products that force the user to work in an unfamiliar fashion frequently fail. Apple's success is largely due to making computers, and phones, work in an intuitive, human way. Apple products are rarely the 'best' product on the market, but as far as usability is concerned they are unbeatable. They work for you, not against you.

Evernote is an excellent product, but there isn't a day where I don't wish for sub-notebooks. I want to see at a glance where my information is. I want to be able to search just a specific sub-notebook. I want to scroll through notes without having to run a search first. Why? Because I might miss a connection otherwise. I want to the software to work for me, not against me.

The answers that I've read from the developers in this thread (use tags, use tags, use tags) are ignoring what a large number of people are asking for. I suspect that the people who are asking for advanced features might well be the people who would evangelize the product if they'd consider it to be closer to perfection. Ignoring user feedback is the fastest way into irrelevance I know of. It's also pretty arrogant - we know best, don't worry about it. Well, we are the people you're relying on for your commercial success. Might it not be time to start listening?

The day Evernote gets sub-folders is the day I'd go pro. in the meantime, I'll be keeping my eyes open for the inevitable arrival of the competition.

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I'm not going into the philosophical reasons that I want sub-notebooks, but just know that for what I'm doing and for how my brain works I would really appreciate it if they were added. Keep all the good tagging stuff too, but just give me a concrete place to stash stuff quickly.

I decided to post here because I was actually trying to use Evernote today - trying to set up my note structure and become a consistent user (and likely future suscriber) - but became frustrated with my growing list of tags. I kept wishing there was a way to make a sub-notebook. I KNEW there must be a way because it seemed like such a basic UI feature. I couldn't find it anywhere and consulted google only to find out that there are no sub-notebooks. :)

I think of those multi-section divided notebooks that I used in high school. I keep each subject in a section of the notebook. Each day I easily flip open to the correct section and write my notes in the section that belongs to that class. When it comes time for a test everything is there, in order, and easy to find. Now, say I have to write a paper for another class that incorporates things I've learned in several classes. I tear out all the pages I need from various classes that are about the same subject and put them in a 3 ring binder to write my paper. This is how I would like to use sub-folders and tags.

I know that with work I could do that with tags alone, but I think that this is how it works in so many other places and just seems natural. Maybe my mind is too feeble to understand the benefits of a "tags only" system, but for me sub-categories just make sense and would be ideal working in conjunction with your powerful tag system. Why not give your users more power by implementing both?

So, to sum up... +1

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6 hours ago, raphaelaguiar said:

Only when I first saw Notion I really understood how amazing this feature would be!

Please stop spamming the forums with links to other products. If you have something to say about the topic, then say it. Otherwise...

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Directory like structure would be very good - at least one more level

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I think its clear at this point that someone within the Evernote organisation has simply refused to add this feature a long time ago and now its blacklisted. I am a developer and unfortunately this is very common in the industry logic goes out the window and pride comes into play.

There is only 1 way that this feature will ever get implemented in Evernote, if it effects their revenue streams...

I am not advocating this as I love Evernote, but something as simple as a group of users refusing to renew their memberships until this feature is available would put pressure on the management, and thus would apply pressure to the development team.

Unfortunately I also see this alot in my industry, its just a sad state of affairs when pride comes into the picture.

I don't like tags, and I like stacks, give the customers what they want... it should really be that simple!

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A note to Evernote ;)

The lack of this feature is why my company chose Quip over Evernote. And it's why I am finally getting around to moving my personal Evernote content to some other (yet undecided) service.
 

Quote

But you can do everything with tags!


I've been a software developer for quite awhile now, and no, just no. Things as simple as moving deeply nested subfolders around, dragging and dropping files from one folder to another, become a painful exercise in trying to rename tags.

I'm sure EN made an early mistake in software or db design that makes this feature nigh impossible, just letting the product team know that it is affecting your bottom line.

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Just so you know there is a very simple way to implement this regardless of how the backend architecture of evernote was built, and would not effect backwards compatibility and would work easily across all platforms.

Create virtually nested stacks

Stack 1

-- Stack 2

-- -- Stack 3

is stored in the backend as a single stack with the string:

Stack1 :: Stack 2 :: Stack 3

older clients simply see this instead of nested stacks, and the newer clients see the stacks in a nested view

 

Its really not as hard as evernote seem to think it is...

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Posted (edited)

Hierarchy of notebooks/stacks should be a given. Currently the only thing keeping from using Evernote over OneNote is the lack of hierarchy. I really, really would prefer to use Evernote, but no matter what I try (hours and hours of experimenting) nothing is right for me. Yes, I have tried tag hierarchy. I like my notes to be in one place, one notebook, and for tags to be something additional. That is how my brain works and is the genius behind applications like Workflowy and Todoist.

If hierarchical tags are enough for you, good for you, but everyone doesn't need to be just like you. There is no universal "right" way to take notes, what is right is what is right for you. A good app offers a variety of options to many different people who think in many different ways. I happen to be non-neurotypical and frankly the posts that are like "I can't see why you could possibly need this" frustrate me. Of course you can't, because it isn't how you think, but can you recognize and accept the fact that some people do think that way even though it isn't how you do?

And yes, I have found another app to use. OneNote. It isn't perfect but I have weighed the pros and cons of each application over a few years, and have in general experimented with many note-taking platforms (I genuinely enjoy doing so.) I have found OneNote to be the better choice when I weigh the pros and cons, but that all would change if Evernote had notebook hierarchy. So yeah that's the reason I have come on here to comment, because I really do want things to improve with Evernote.

Also I want to add notebooks don't necessarily have to be under notebooks in a hierarchy, it could actually just be stacks under stacks, with no sub-notebooks and only sub-stacks. Honestly either way would be nice if there were just true hierarchy.

Also something that makes a huge difference when it comes to notebook hierarchy vs. tag hierarchy is that with tag hierarchy you lose the ability to share things as one notebook. Since Evernote prioritizes collaboration a lot you would think this would be important to them.

Edited by AlextheUnicat
added note about notebook sharing
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We take every request in the forums as a feature request, yes.

Could you provide more information about how you see the difference? What is the task you want to accomplish with hierarchical notebooks that you can't do with hierarchical tags?

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Actually, the same thing can be accomplished with my "Auto Drag & Tag" feature request.

I'll explain.

In EN's current state, if the user is in the "Tips" notebook and highlights the "Linux" tag, then the note window shows only "Tips:Linux" notes.

I think that's much simpler than sub-notebooks because one can simply have a set of universal tags that apply to all notebooks and then hierarchical tags as needed. No need to replicate sub-notebooks.

Now, back to my idea.

The downside with the tags as opposed to sub-notebooks is in importing. Particularly, bulk importing (where is easy to lose yourself in the main notebook).

So, if one were able to drag/import files directly to the tag, the problem is solved.

It would work as follows:

The user clicks on the relevant notebook, let's use the above example: "Tips."

Then, the user would click the relevant tag, again with the above, "Linux."

Now, the user simply drags the file onto the "Linux" tag and the file is imported into the Tips folder and tagged as a Linux tip.

My plan is to use EN as a document management program in a law practice. As such, I would have 50 or so notebooks at any given time. Each notebook would represent an active client file. With my current setup (DEVONthink), I have specific sub-solders that are identical in each file. Those would become tags in EN. I desperately need a way to import directly into the specific notebook & tag.

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I have played around with the Tags and I guess what confuses me is the tags seem to be used to mimic subnotebooks. If you had subnotebooks you really would not need the tags. One of the big problems I had with OneNote is it did not handle subfolders/subpages very well. Yes, you could add a subpage but it seemed to only go one level deep.

What you have in the tags and subtags is exactly what you should do for the folders and let the tags be used for simply tagging your notebooks. If you take a look at "Ultra Recall" it allows you to create an unlimited number of folders/subfolders and makes organizing your data very easy. The problem with using the tags/subtags in EN is it seems to be double the work and take twice the space on the left. If I could just create a subnotebook I really would never need tags especially since the searching is so powerful. To me the tags are just another way to group my notebooks but if I could have subnotebooks I could group them from the start the way I want.

Here is an example of the Subfolders I have setup in Ultra Recall. This is just a small example as I have well over 100 subfolders of subfolders of data.

subfolders.png

What is so incredible about EN is the ability to have all your data on the Desktop, Web and iPhone and have it always in sync. I have not seen any other program be able to do this.

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In EN2.2, we have categories. They are a combination of notebooks, tags, attributes, and saved searches. You can have an entire hierarchy, and any one category could be made to filter (e.g., filter by type of note, creation date, containing text, etc.). Or, it could just be "dumb" without any special autocategorization.

There have been many long philosophical discussions on this forum as to what a category really was. Was it a tag, like del.icio.us? Was it a folder, like windows? Some of us liked it one way, some another, and some combined both methodologies without even thinking about it. Knowing these philosophical arguments, you can see why the new EN3 has separated out the four types now. Notebooks are like folders - a note can belong in any one folder. Tags are like del.icio.us tags; a note can have multiple tags. (We got a tag hierarchy because we begged for it, but unfortunately, it's not as powerful as the old category hierarchy from 2.2). Attributes are simply the auto-categories that could be created based on note type/format. And saved searches replace our regular autocategories, i.e., the categories that were automatically assigned based on something in the note. Of course, the new saved searches are much more powerful. But also limited, in that they stand by themselves, are stored in a flat alphabetical list, and are limited to a max of 32.

The current mantra is that to achieve the concept of folders/subfolders in EN3, you should just use tags, because they come with a hierarchy. I say this is not an optimal solution because:

1. I can automatically create a note in a particular notebook. I can (no longer) create a note in a new tag. I have to create the note, and then tag it. (Plus/minus any moving to the appropriate notebook).

2. If I have a tag and two subtags, there is no way for me to see all notes that are in the hierarchy. In 2.2, I could double-click on the tag, and it (and all of its children) were selected, with an OR, i.e., I would have the notes that were in the tag, OR in either of its children. This can still be achieved, but by a manual search, i.e., "any: tag:mytag tag:mytagchild1 tag:mytag2". Ugly and painful. One could argue, well make a saved search. See my discussion about how they're limited.

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If I may add my 2 cents as well (again).

Organizing by using sub notebooks seems so logical ... it follows the approach of Explorer and a million other programs (listing just the ones I have open currently: ListPro, Clip Cache Pro, ACDSee Pro, Thunderbird, jRiver Media Center, iTunes, etc, etc). I really don't want to have to learn a new paradigm every time I use a new program. For better or worse using sub 'folders' is what we're used to.

The tagging idea is great but I'd prefer to have that as an extra feature rather than the only way to organize the notes.

2 cents>

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The tagging is great for some users but I think the majority of users would understand and prefer subnotebooks. I think you need to look more at your future customers as EN grows and ask which method they will understand more.

In fact, I say leave the tagging feature exactly as you have it now and add the ability to create subnotebooks. Then you would cover ALL users in the future with the best of both. :D

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My two cents about navigation/classification :D

I use Evernote as advanced notebook in professional and personal aspects.

Personal notes consist of my todo/to read notebook, clips from freebsd configs, bills & tickets, etc, earlier stored in personal wiki.

Professional aspect includes some analytical notes & stuff (and I wouldn't mind at this point if we'll be able to attach arbitrary file types :D

and my articles and reviews for few online magazines.

So I thought about classification scheme. It's clear for me that one-level notebooks and not-so-hierarchical tags (parents does not include child-tagged notes) are not enough to my goals. So there is my proposed scheme:

1) One-level notebooks works as "data domain" and sync/publish options --- as it is

2) Tags works in multi-dimensions instead of one (faceted classification). User can define facets (for example: projects, status, people, magazine) and values (projects: A,B,C..), status (draft, proposed, ready, published), people (Kolmogorov, ...).

3) Note are marked with pairs facet:value, f.e. status:ready

4) Search box works to find notes on multiple facets (status: draft magazine:CNews type:review) in combination with search phrase and attributes

5) Every search saves (as it is in Saved searches now) as some kind of virtual notebook

I think this scheme with some modifications (f.e. multilevel facets) will be not so hard to learn and have some flexibility to address many intermed. classification schemes. And case with one facet and many tags are simple one-dimension tags.

Sorry for my poor English

WBR, your premium user since June 2008 :D

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I recently switched from a Windows based PC to a Mac and have been searching for a replacement for OneNote. I think Evernote might just be the replacement, but the toughest thing for me to cope with in this switch is no hierarchical folder/notebook paradigm....one more vote for "subnotebooks". I hope the folks at Evernote have this in the works.

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I agree that this is an almost necessary feature idea. Could the powers-at-be tell us where this ranks among feature requests and if/when it might be implemented?

-Justin

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Hierarchical notebooks are not in the next release of any of our clients. However, if you want to make hierarchical ontologies to organize your notes, you can do that in all of our clients today by using tags.

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This means that I've actually changed the kind of data I store in EN3. I don't keep anything "important" there, just scraps that I can dump into a notebook willy-nilly.

This is how I use EN3 (Mac) at home. Strictly for miscellaneous, unimportant tidbits of info. At work (EN2.2), I have virtually everything that is not an actual document in it, and use it as my central hub for everything else I do during the day. Completely different app, still, with completely different capabilities. :lol:

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Having just completed the importing of my delicious bookmarks into Evernote3 (all 700 plus of them, tags and all), I have suddenly seen the value of hierarchical tags! Each bookmark has one or more tags. To be able to group these tags into a hierarchical structure is a joy. Long live hierarchical tags!

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I understand tags and nested tags, but they suck for my purposes. Great for taxonomy, not great for organization.

I would prefer folder and notebook entities. Or notebook and subnotebook entities.

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I'm also voting for subnotebooks.

The idea with tagging is great. However, tags work across notebooks, and they're great for some searches that are made well... across notebooks

If you allow tags to be nested, then why not to do the same with notebooks?

I'm using windows platform and recently switched from OneNote to EverNote and this is the very feature that's essential for me.

I'm using such an organizer to store all my files and notes, and I lead a busy life. I need a notebook for my voyages, for studies, and for my job. In the company I lead some projects and it's a lot easier to put every project in a separate subnotebook, and then of course I could tag it like "possible point of failures", "rewards" etc. The same is with my studies. I'd love to have each subject in its own subnotebook, each note tagged i.e. "general informaion", "exam session"... This means greater flexibility and makes the use of it more intuitive.

If this would be a lot easier for all of the people (there's no single voice it's a bad idea), it would really be a great improvement to see it this way...

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Hierarchical notebooks are not in the next release of any of our clients. However, if you want to make hierarchical ontologies to organize your notes, you can do that in all of our clients today by using tags.

I've looked at that, and tried it a bit. It will not work for my purposes. I understand that this is not planned for the next release, but is it even in the works?

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I would "Go Premium" if Evernote had subnotebooks. Evernote would be a killer product. I can't seem to orient my mind around hierarchical tags.

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Thanks for this discussion. Consider this another request for subnotebooks. I really want to keep my work data organized separately from beer-tasting, etc... And the hierarchical tagging just doesn't cut it. I would like to be able to create definitive partitions, so that diagrams from work don't accidentally pop up while I'm in a discussion with friends about lager - how embarassing! (and vice-versa wouldn't be so good, either)

The only other option might be to set up 2 separate accounts - but I really don't want the hassle of that.

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I again add my own request for subnotebooks.

I have no doubt everything could be done with tags -- but my experience has been that things work best with a combined notebook/tag metaphor.

I have set up notebooks for my main subject areas -- but some second level notebooks would sure help.

If not for the next version, then when?

Similarly with the missing EN2 features -- on one hand you're having tremendous market growth, and so you should given the ingenuity and hard slogging you folks have put into it. However, it seems you're putting much weight on the idea that some of us will wait forever because of our loyalty. We loyal to a point, and as I have said before, please do not take us for granted.

While I have never paid a cent to Evernote, and I won't for extra web space because that isn't my thing, I would gladly pay the premium fee if it included subnotebooks, and all the features left from EN2.

I've talked about your market before. It seems there are two streams -- the one that want Web 2 style capability and mobility everything.

Then there is the stream that sees EN as a day-to-day workhorse, tied to research and writing, with phenomenal web data capture.

If there is a way to develop both streams concurrently, there'll be less noise from guys like me.

If other readers agree with me -- or if you think I am full of hot air -- I hope you all will make your positions known.

Thanks to all, including the developers of one great product.

Daly

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I again add my own request for subnotebooks.

I second the request. Though I'm much more interested in off-line viewing on the iPhone.

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Hierarchical notebooks are not in the next release of any of our clients. However, if you want to make hierarchical ontologies to organize your notes, you can do that in all of our clients today by using tags.

Big mistake, IMHO. Tags are for taxonomy, not organization. Organization with tags resembles spaghetti. Folders are absolute and cleaner.

Anyway, I'm another "I'd go premium, if EN had folders" vote. I'm ready to throw money at you guys if you fix this usability issue.

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Tree structure for notebooks, please.

This really is a significant feature. The metaphor of a notebook is a necessary metaphor: One place to hold everything that the user wants to "bind" into one place, one conceptual bin, ordered chronologically.

Tags are a different concept: cross-references between things that the user does not necessarily want to put into one bin--tags label things that may not have chronological or immediate conceptual unity for the user, but which have some referential relationship.

The restrictions of the UI make a flat notebook hierarchy unwieldy. At about 20 notebooks, things start to get messy. Subnotebooks of arbitrary depth let the user use notebooks to bind things together as needed, in a clean, easily manipulated way. Tags let the user cut across the tree notebook structure to mark inter-relationships and retrieval possibilities that a notebook tree structure alone does not allow.

These are two different approaches to data, both with their strengths and weakness. Both are useful. Right now, you are severely diminishing the usefulness of the notebook approach by not allowing a notebook hierarchy.

Even if you are not persuaded of this way of viewing tags vs. notebooks, please still consider putting notebooks in a tree structure just because users are asking for it.

I'm also in the "give me tree structure for notebooks, and I'll go premium" camp.

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Count me as another in the "give me tree structure for notebooks, and I'll go premium" camp.

I won't bother repeating the reasons as the case is made well by the preceding comments in this thread.

Any comment from the developers?

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I'm reluctant to add a "me, too" post, but in this case I would like to say, yes, subnotebooks would be great. I like to be able to see all my notebooks on the screen and not have any below the monitor. Without subnotebooks that limits the number of notebooks I can use. Having all the notebooks helps make Evernote a highly useable program.

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Hierarchical notebooks are not in the next release of any of our clients. However, if you want to make hierarchical ontologies to organize your notes, you can do that in all of our clients today by using tags.

Big mistake, IMHO. Tags are for taxonomy, not organization. Organization with tags resembles spaghetti. Folders are absolute and cleaner.

Anyway, I'm another "I'd go premium, if EN had folders" vote. I'm ready to throw money at you guys if you fix this usability issue.

+1 for folders. I'm used to EN2. Why on earth do I have to learn a new "concept" (and yes, importing my notes from EN2 into EN3 does look like spaghetti - don't get me wrong, I love all kinds of pasta but only when I can eat them).

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Tags suck. I came here, hoping to find a setup issue I had with subfolders not being displayed. Disappointed to see so many requests and not one glimmer of hope in creating subfolders. Please listen to your audience. Everyone wants subfolders. Not one person anywhere here is arguing for tags. Seems a pretty clearcut distinction for what your users want.

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I so get tired of this loudest minority gets what it wants. The reason that most people here are arguing for sub-notebooks and not tags is because we have tags. You all want sub-notebooks and so argue for it. Simple.

I think you are all being very narrow in your view of tags. They are a damn sight more useful than sub-notebooks. I can only have a note in one sub-notebook. But I can give the same note many tags?

Maybe with the use of voting and email they could ask all the users?

Blackrat

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Blackrat (And all the others that say that tags are better than subnotebooks)

Tags and subnotebooks serve two separate purposes. I have uses for them both.

For example, I am a law student. I have tags. They are: Book briefs,case briefs, concepts and rules. I have notebooks. Each class gets its own notebook. If I could have subnotebooks, then I could organize them by semester. This prevents my notebook list from getting too crowded.

-Justin

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Justin,

I do agree with you and use them in the same way. My only point is that if we only have the option of one or the other. Then tags are far more useful than sub-notebooks, IMHO..! If however we can have both then great, why we discussing it?

Blackrat

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Justin,

I do agree with you and use them in the same way. My only point is that if we only have the option of one or the other. Then tags are far more useful than sub-notebooks, IMHO..! If however we can have both then great, why we discussing it?

Blackrat

As yet, we haven't been presented with a reason why we can't have both. Every time a user asks for subnotebooks, EN comes back with "use tags". We're not asking to remove tags, we just want subnotebooks as well.

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Tags suck. I came here, hoping to find a setup issue I had with subfolders not being displayed. Disappointed to see so many requests and not one glimmer of hope in creating subfolders. Please listen to your audience. Everyone wants subfolders. Not one person anywhere here is arguing for tags. Seems a pretty clearcut distinction for what your users want.

Actually, not everyone is arguing for sub-notebooks; I don't really see the point when we have a perfectly good method of organisation in the form of tags! I've tried very hard to understand why you all seem to want subnotebooks and I haven't really seen a pursuasive argument yet that made it clear why subnotebooks would be better than the existing methods of organising notes. The only advantage I can see to using notebooks as the main means of organising things is that you can work "within" one notebook and have all your notes made during that session go to that notebook. If a similar feature was added for tags (which woud be pretty useful - i.e. whatever tag(s) is(/are) currently selected automatically gets added to any notes made) then this argument would be redundant and I wouldn't be able to see a single reason why subnotebooks would be necessary. I use tags for pretty much all of my organisation in Evernote; the only reason I have multiple notebooks now is to allow me to share them (e.g. my recipes & other food notes are in a separate public notebook so I can share them with other people). At first I started off with more notebooks but I actually found it more of an inconvenience because notes can only be in one notebook, whereas they can be in multiple tags. Justin (jameyer) used the example of having separate notebooks for each university class; well, I'm a student too and I actually found this method far too limiting - I had notes that related to more than one subject area (and also to more than one semester or year), so tags worked much better than notebooks.

I'm not saying that there AREN'T any good arguments for having subnotebooks, just that I haven't seen any that have persuaded me so far, and I'm guessing the same is true of the Evernote developers. If you believe so passionately that subnotebooks are much better than tags, then I think you need to give a comprehensive list of all the things you could accomplish with subnotebooks that can't be accomplished with tags. If you can manage that then the Evernote developers may take more notice. At the moment, to those of us in the "tag camp" it looks like you're all thinking a little too narrowly about tags; that may be totally unfair, but that's just how it looks to someone with a different perspective. Maybe if you can all explain your arguments more fully then the developers will be persuaded too!

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At least from my point of view, I'm arguing for subnotebooks because of the functionality that used to exist in 2.2. There, *categories* were the only form of organization, and yet they could be used either as *folders* or as *tags*. There were many long philosophical discussions about what a category really meant, and I think that forced the EN team to scrap the concept and separate the two concerns. Hence, we now have notebooks, which act as folders or containers, and tags, which act, well, like tags.

I see tags as something *extra* that I tag my notes with, kind of like sticking tape flags on certain pages in a physical notebook. If I were just clipping miscellaneous bits of information, e.g., a favourite link, a recipe, a tip, etc., then tags would probably be enough - kind of like the del.icio.us concept. However, I use EN for much more than just snippets. I tend to log my thought process in there, e.g., how I'm going about fixing a problem, how I'm researching a particular thing, etc. etc. In the real world, I would have a physical notebook, with sequential notes showing the whole process. I could then tag/flag various bits for easy retrieval later. Most of these notes belong in one place, e.g., Research Problem X. For me at least, the ability to have notebooks/subnotebooks would fit my work flow much better. That's not to say that I don't use tags, but I find them to be an extra step that is only useful when something really important needs to be noted.

You hit the nail on the head with the comment about being able to select a tag and have new notes automatically tagged. If that were the case, I would treat tags the same way I treated categories in 2.2. Alas, tags can only be assigned after the fact, and that's an extra step I'm not willing to take for most of my notes.

Hopes this helps explain the rationale behind my request for subnotebooks :)

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I am a little frustrated. There are a few people who come on here and they simply say that because we want subnotebooks, we aren't using tags correctly. Clearly, as the argument seems to go, we don't know what we really want, and the problem is that we just don't know how to use the software correctly. If we did,then we'd be happy with tags and there'd be no problem.

You, people who like tags and don't want subnotebooks, don't need to understand. If/when we get subnotebooks as a feature, you are welcome to not use them. However, please stop telling us that we don't need this feature. Obviously, we see a need for it.

I like tags. I use tags. But tags will not replace my need for notebooks. Unlike Missdipsy,my notes do not transfer from one class to another. Even if I read the same case for two classes, specific rule that I need to get out of it is different. There is exactly 0 overlap. I do not anticipate that changing.

Now, could I,if I tried hard enough, make tags work for me in the way that I want it? Yeah, I probably could. But, here's the thing. At the end of the semester, I need to do something with my notes. I don't need my torts notes anymore, but can't get rid of them because I will need them for the bar. So, I need a way to keep them out of the way. With tags, they are still floating around. I don't want to clutter up my life, and I don't want to clutter up my software.

Here's the bottom line: If tags work for you, mazel tov. Stop telling those of us who want the subnotebooks that we're wrong. Obviously, tags do not serve the purpose that we want. Tags will not replace notebook categorization for me. What's more, by telling me how wrong I am, you make me want to try and see your side even less. I have even less interest now in trying to make tags work for me. You don't need to understand our reasoning. If you don't want subnotebooks, fine. This is not the thread for you; please move on.

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You, people who like tags and don't want subnotebooks, don't need to understand. If/when we get subnotebooks as a feature, you are welcome to not use them. However, please stop telling us that we don't need this feature.

You're right, it's not me that needs to understand, it's the developers, but I'm here having this discussion and they're not. Hopefully, though, they'll read this, and they might change their minds if you can present a persuasive argument. I was trying to help clarify what it is about the subnotebook metaphor that you think works better than tabs, in the assumption that if you can convince those of us who don't get it, you can probably convince the developers too. Call it playing devil's advocate if you like!

It seems from what the developers have said so far that they don't get it either, so if you feel strongly then it's clear that you need to make them understand your point of view. To those of us who use tags as handy little multi-purpose labels/folders/categories/whatever it's difficult to see why you can't just use tags. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, just that it isn't obvious to people who don't share your point of view.

The Evernote developers no doubt have a lot of features they keep getting asked for, in addition to the "road map" they will have planned out for Evernote, so they can't just implement every feature they get asked for (as someone else said, it could just be a vocal minority asking for this). I'm sure they could be convinced, however, if you can address the arguments against this feature request.

Also, I'm here because I'm actually very interested in how other people use Evernote. I read these forums to get a variety of perspectives and hopefully pick up some new ideas, perhaps even have some of my own ideas challenged. Funnily enough you don't tend to get that if you only ever talk to people who agree with you completely!

@Crane:

Thanks for your explanation. I used to use Evernote 2 as well, although less than I use Evernote now. I suppose I always thought of the categories as being like tags... but then I don't make much distinction between the idea of tags and folders anyway, to me they are just different metaphors for categorising things. In "real life" I'm forced to use physical location (folders, notebooks, shelves etc) as the main means of categorising things, which is rather restrictive since an item can only be in one place at a time, whereas in Evernote something can be in many places at once (using tags). I'd just have a tag for "Research Problem X", although I completely agree that it would be better if you could automatically apply selected tags to new notes, as you can with notebooks. It would make the workflow just that little bit smoother when you're working on a project. It can get rather tedious to repeatedly type in the same tags (although I have a habit of having a text file permanently open on my PC which I sometimes use as a kind of clipboard for things like that, but it would be nice if I didn't have to!)

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Please add me to the list of people requesting sub-folders.

The bottom line for me is that it is simply counter-intuitive to not have them. Users are used to the concept of sub-folders, whether in explorer, sharepoint, or whatever. Tags are great, and I know that they're all the rage these days and are hyped up by web 2.0, but it seems to me that forcing people down that way of thinking is not catering to how most users think.

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Crispinb, you've hit the nail on the head when you say that "organizing" is a different problem than "searching". I've been trying to use EN3 to hold all my notes from my new job. I'm in week #4 now, and I've come to the conclusion that EN3 is just untenable as a real notebook for me. Sure, it's great for absorbing a bunch of stuff that I send to it, and I surely do love the fact that I can use a shortcut key anyway to clip some stuff to it.

But I've been trying for 3 weeks now to figure out how to organize the stuff I've collected. So far I've only 400 notes related to work. I've tried different notebooks. I've tried one notebook with many tags. I've tried different organization of tags. I'm to the point where I have a set of tags that start with numbers, e.g., 001 Learn X, 002 Learn Y, etc. and have everything in one notebook. This requires me to, at the end of every day, look at ever untagged note and decide where (what project, really) it belongs.

But then when it comes to finding that "thing" I'm looking for, e.g., a note that I know I'm going to have to keep coming back to, I got frustrated. I created a Help tag, to hold all those special notes. To be honest, I find tagging a pain. I often forget to tag stuff, which makes the tags meaningless.

It was to the point where I was writing down the really important stuff in a notebook, for easy access. But then I started working on projects, and I want to keep project information together - useful URLs, documents that have been sent to me by email, my notes from meetings, etc. etc. Argh. EN was just not cutting it.

So, my new system, newly minted, is a combination of EN3 for instant dumping / easy searching for things I *might* need in the future. For actually organizing, e.g., project notes, pieces of info I'm going to refer to over and over, I've started a tiddlywiki. I always avoided them in the past, because of the pain of dealing with screenshots. But to be honest, although I take may screenshots while working through something, only a few ever need to be referred to again, and EN makes it easy to save an image to my hard drive. Then, I just link to it from the tiddlywiki. I was resistant to trying this out, but then I found myself about to create a web page to organize my URLs, because I have so many and the bookmarks in FF just wasn't doing it for me.

Long story short, my EN is now a giant container, like a sieve. Most stuff stays in EN, but some stuff, the really important stuff that I know I'll need for projects, gets brought into my TiddlyWiki. The wiki can be organized as I see fit, just like an interlinked set of web pages or notes. I get the advantage of choosing the order in which info is shown, I can link between notes (tiddlers) and I can link to files on my computer. It seems to be the best of both worlds for now.

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crane: yours is a very similar tale to mine, actually. I've been through a couple of iterations of trying to use Evernote for my project-related stuff, and always found it just too hard to keep a consistent form of organisation. Like you, I for a while even had notes reminding me of the tagging scheme to use within my projects. But that was a pain to keep maintained, and, in the end, a silly way to have to use a tool.

My solution is structurally similar to yours: I use Evernote as my immediate dump for everything, and as a permanent store for lots of disconnected stuff; but I use a different app for my highly structured, project-related info (Zotero, in my case).

It's worth commenting though on why I persisted in *trying* to find a way to use Evernote for projects, which is that in most ways it's so damned good. The local client is beautifully responsive and friction-free, the Firefox clipper is just the best, it's great to have everything mirrored on a decent web app, its development is moving forward at a really impressive rate, both Mac and Win clients, bugs are fixed quickly etc etc.

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It's worth commenting though on why I persisted in *trying* to find a way to use Evernote for projects, which is that in most ways it's so damned good. The local client is beautifully responsive and friction-free, the Firefox clipper is just the best, it's great to have everything mirrored on a decent web app, its development is moving forward at a really impressive rate, both Mac and Win clients, bugs are fixed quickly etc etc.

Yeah, I think it's back to the whole discussion about power users. A lot of people can just use EN right out of the box to collect miscellaneous *****. But there's a few power users out there who try to make it really work hard, e.g., serious searches (a la old category intersection), no-think tagging so you can have a trusted system, templates (oh, how power users miss templates), etc.

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I've been following this thread for some time and my first reaction was ...yes we definitely need subfolders ...what is it the developers don't understand about the way we've always created information storage hierarchies?

- Over the last couple of months I've added several hundred MB of files - watching the data share and index grow while performance becomes a little more sedate. As I continue to add data I'm starting to wonder whether my local computer will be able to manage a multi GB index efficiently ...or should I plan for multiple accounts?

I'd like to be able to further test the tag hierarchy paradigm without losing my current folder based organization.

Is it possible to copy the database to a new location and set it up not to replicate so I can see how well I could adapt to the tag data structure?

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I'd like to be able to further test the tag hierarchy paradigm without losing my current folder based organization.

Is it possible to copy the database to a new location and set it up not to replicate so I can see how well I could adapt to the tag data structure?

You can select a set of notes (or all notes) and then use the Export function to make a local export file. You can import this for testing elsewhere, into either normal (synchronized) or local-only notebooks.

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I will add my wish for subnotebooks. The fact is, different people think differently about how to organise things. My own personal preference would be to use a fixed structure in the form of a hierarchy of notebooks and then to add tags to allow searching and categorisation in a way that cuts across the notebook organisation. I use the same strategy in organising my photos in Lightroom, with a folder structure plus tags. Without this EN becomes less interesting for me and I anticipate using it now for relatively small collections of notes.

So +1 to the suggestion.

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I'm still using one of my templates in Ecco Pro to manage the projects that I work on. However, I like the ability to dump data of any kind from multiple locations into Evernote and be able to view that same data via different Evernote interfaces. I think what the power users of Evernote are looking for is a way to enter data ONCE in a folder of their choosing (hopefully with a minimal level of inheritance) with some kind of structure/hierarchy that mimics their VIEW of how data should be stored. Once this data has been entered into the appropriate folder, TAGS can be used to cross pollinate a data element across multiple fields, which can then be used in your search engine with the necessary tagging to find said data.

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Like most folks, I've used the subfolder notion for years, in Unix & Windows file systems, in Outlook, and in many other places.

More recently, I've come to appreciate tagging and have gone through multiple learning processes with them. Tagging is very popular in modern Web-based collaboration (Web 2.0 or whatever). I've used them with Outlook categories, Shadow Plan & SmartList for Palm OS, Google Mail (Gmail), Google Reader (Greader), Evernote, FireFox bookmarks, etc.

Like most folks, over the years, I've evolved a directory tree structure I like for file systems, and I set that up when I get a new machine or a new drive. Also, I've noted similarities to the various bookmark, category (like Outlook), and tag sets that have evolved, and I am now in a mode of aligning them; soon, I will have them fully aligned and will become more rigorous as to how I assign tags to content.

After all that, here's what I find:

(1) In file systems, I find myself frequently wanting to use (Unix/Linux) symlinks or (Windows) shortcuts to implement exceptions within the otherwise hierarchical structure of file system content. Still, if the tree structure is good enough, the need for them is somewhat rare, but always present.

(2) In tag sytems (my use of them is most mature in gmail, so I'll use that for examples), most of my messages are tagged twice or three times; examples include (each tuple are tags for one message):

(2a) {order, books}, {order, gear}, {order, clothing}, {order, clothing, john};

(2b) {family}, {colleague}, {family, event}, {event, music}, {colleague, event, conference, IT};

(2c) {career}, {career, opportunity}, {career, education}; and

(2d) {community, social}, {community, career}, {community, organization}.

(3) Subfolders/subnotebooks by themselves is nowhere near sufficient.

(4) Tags by themselves are powerful, especially once mastered. But they exact a price:

(4a) It takes me a handful of clicks or keystrokes to get a message tagged in gmail. If I were less OCD, less nerdy, or less intent on having a searchable message store, I would've abandoned it long ago due to productivity loss.

(4b) Getting hierarchical structuring done via tagging IS possible; but again, at a cost in productivity (and complexity).

(4c) The creative mechanisms I put in place as I refine my tagging are great, but they are not policed. I mistag stuff every day, and I realize it sometimes immediately and sometimes much later. Regardless, I live with knowing there will always be exceptions due to mistagging; my lists of, say, orders are not complete, for example.

(5) When developing code, I've learned -- after using SmallTalk & others purely hierarchical (single) inheritance methods, Java single inheritance with multiple interface inheritance, C++ with multiple inheritance, and so on and on -- that there is no "right" answer as to how best to model a problem, a solution, or the world.

So.........., here is my proposal...............

(1) Let there be subfolders, unless the developers REALLY consider this to be hard or bad in some other way. There's just going to be a level of comfort they will yield, and without them, there will be too many folks who will be put off by or tempted to stray from Evernote.

(2) Tagging is really great. Let there be tags. Let there also be a forum specifically for tag structures or usage mechanisms to be used like templates to help users get the most out of them. Evernote can contribute as well as users to this compendium.

(3) THE way (in my opinion) to enable productive tagging is to provide (pop-up?) CHECKLISTS of tags. If a list gets too big, SCROLL it (probably HORIZONTALLY, like Windows Explorer List View, as opposed to Details View). Tagging gmail-style is 'way too slow.

(4) For rigorous tagging to be feasible for those of us who may NOT be OCD or sufficiently nerdy, let's get a smidgeon creative regarding tags. Mature tag sets tend to have at least partial relationships between tags. An example of mine above is that a message (note) representing an "order" should generally have a tag representing the kind of thing being ordered and possibly who it might be ordered for. Another is that a note of an "event" is pretty barren without also knowing what kind of event it is, and depending on that (like "music" vs "conference"), it might also be annotated with "IT" or "concert" or something. We could implement tag hierarchies this way, if the relationship is a full one (enforceable) rather than partial (user's option).

(5) To accomplish #4, I suggest that power tag users have a Settings section wherein they can define relationships between tags. The effect of a relationship is to be prompted with a list of optional "sub" tags. Now, this is arguably icing on the cake; #4 is the main deal. BUT an additional benefit of #5 is that Evernote could then help the user achieve INTEGRITY by ensuring the relationships are maintained or at least not violated.

I have spoken. :-)

This topic shouldn't degenerate into the subnotebookers vs the taggers. Most of us probably use both right now. If someone gets frustrated and inadvertently snubs the other, let's relax and give each other a bit of a break.

-bc

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Awesome reply. You should be working, or at least consulting for evernote.

My main deal is that I don't like having to remember every tag that something should have. If I had a pop up list of check marked, hierarchical tags that could be set to automatically apply tags higher up the hierarchy that would be awesome. I'm a very visual person and really want some sort of visual hierarchy of tags in the clip to evernote window and the ability quickly check them off instead of typing, arrowing, tabbing, etc.

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Awesome reply. You should be working, or at least consulting for evernote.

It is easy for me to imagine all sorts of wonderful solutions, since I don't have to spend time actually doing it. I'm sure Dave's ideas are just as good, but he has things to worry about as he guides this thing along its path, and everything takes time. And I am known for being very long-winded (sigh).

My main deal is that I don't like having to remember every tag that something should have. If I had a pop up list of check marked, hierarchical tags that could be set to automatically apply tags higher up the hierarchy that would be awesome. I'm a very visual person and really want some sort of visual hierarchy of tags in the clip to evernote window and the ability quickly check them off instead of typing, arrowing, tabbing, etc.

When I left HP a couple of months ago, I moved from using MS Office 2003 to the 2007 edition. It has the "ribbons" along the top. I'm still not fully adjusted to it, occasionally failing to find the place where the function I need might be buried. But I nevertheless consider it to be an advance, at least for casual users, as it is very visual. Power users tend to like menu navigation sequences, keystrokes, or even commands. Power users can tag very quickly if tags are searched keystroke by keystroke in real time. For general users, I like the idea of having a 6-8-line-tall ribbon of checkboxed tags with +- symbols to expand & collapse tag hierarchies. It would extend to the right however far and scroll horizontally if it needs to. Keys and buttons to toggle it on or off, expand all, and collapse all. Hard hierarchies (like Colored, Colored.Red, and Colored.Taupe) would have the behavior that checking Colored.Taupe automatically causes Colored to be checked (and conversely, ...).

That partial or soft relationship between tags (like my Order may or may not need an item type, but it ideally would have additional attributes/tags), and if the mechanism can expedite that, that would be great; it's sort of like required & optional "attributes" in an "element" in XML. This part of it is at the edge of my UX (user experience) imagination at the moment; I'm not quite sure how that might work. The main thing is that multitagging should be very quick and maximally assisted for both productivity and integrity. The thing I'm working on at the moment is to determine what checks to clear and what checks to check or leave checked after a note has been tagged and until the next one comes up. Perhaps one could define a filter (saved search?) that, when satisfied, causes certain tags to be set, among other things. (shrug) And whether these ideas are shared by others or by Dave, I have no idea at all. Please chime in. For me, I'd like to searches and the actions to take and such to all be scriptable -- like Ruby or Python (I'm a Ruby/JRuby/Groovy man myself, but whatever).

My main model is that of research info capture and profiling/categorizing. But Evernote could be useful in many other ways as well. I'd like to use it as an RSS/Atom feed reader, as a blog editor/viewer, and so on and on. Each kind of use will demand certain UX features. I heavily use a tool called PersonalBrain (TheBrain.com). It is a very useful tool that can be leveraged in so many ways that it has a major identity crisis, in my opinion. Things they do for the calendar/to do list folks sometimes ***** up the research/knowledge folks like me. So far, not too badly, though. I think Evernote is a bit like that at the moment. By the way, Dave, I'd really like to see Evernote and PersonalBrain interfaced together. Both are pure Java and have APIs, so it should be readily doable, I would think. But both tools need to evolve a lot on their own, as well.

-amb

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I like evernote, but I only use it for a few things because it does not have subnotebooks. Evernote with subnotebooks would be the nuclear bomb of information managers!

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I am really disappointed. I recently paid for a Premium account. I love Evernote. I love how responsive they seem to be on this forum. But I just don't understand the implementation of tags.

I've been learning Evernote, and saw this thread earlier this week. I didn't read through all the posts, but skimming some of the posts, I figured, a "folders guy," if I wanted to use Evernote I was going to have to switch to the tag paradigm. Not a huge deal (so I thought). I understand folders and tags are different ways to organize. But on some levels, folders and tags differ by semantics, style or preference.

As I have been setting up Evernote for my use, I honestly thought parent tags would "contain" child tags - that is, child tags applied to a note would automatically include the parent tags they belong to. I didn't even consider the concept of parent tags would be used if they weren't really "parent" tags. To me, the whole point of *visually* creating parent tags was to implement the *functionality* of parent tags.

OK. So now I've read this thread in its entirety. There are some well-articulated arguments for both styles of organization. Yes, I'd like to have Subnotebooks. I think the best use of Evernote for me will be a hierarchy of notebooks *and* a hierarchy of tags. Evernote seems to be pushing tags, at least for now. I can deal with a tags-centric approach. But at the every least, I need to have true parent tags (inheritance). Is this in the works?

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Hi all,

I came across Evernote recently while searching for a replacement to "Anynotes" that would work on the iphone. I am extremely impressed with this suite and decided to register on the forum to add my two cents to this discussion & my name to the list of those requesting subfolders.

I believe the addition of subfolders would add a greater level of organisation to all and particularly those who structure their notes/work/life(!) in this way. I also use tags in other web 2.0 apps, but do believe there is a limitation in their lack of structure (FYI - Flickr as an example now offers both structures). Putting notes into a tree-like store is intuitive to those who use digital and paper files in the office every day. The ability to have a collapsible directory of notes would make navigating this system on an regular basis much faster and far more user-friendly.

For myself, I keep 3 notebooks (Work, Personal, Property) and maintain a structure within each. So for me to store a detail of an advert I have placed, in my head - the structure is as follows.....

Work

^--------Business 1

.................^-----------1.Purchasing

.................^-----------2.Processing

....................................^-----------Advertising

........................................................^-----------Newspaper

..........................................................................^-----------Financial Times (Putting notes in here for example)

.................^-----------3.Sales

^--------Business 2

^--------Business 3

If I was to accurately store a note to the example above, I would have to tag (Business 1, Process, Advertising, Newspaper, Financial Times) just to store it as I need it. As I keep a large number of small notes in such a folder as above, this becomes particularly tedious, where dragging it to a folder in a structure makes things far less time consuming.

I hope this could be considered in a future release, even as an option for stuck-in-their-ways type users like me, as I do believe it would set this program apart in terms of functionality and simplicity.

Thanks to the creators of the program - keep up the good work.

D P

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I honestly thought parent tags would "contain" child tags - that is, child tags applied to a note would automatically include the parent tags they belong to. I didn't even consider the concept of parent tags would be used if they weren't really "parent" tags. To me, the whole point of *visually* creating parent tags was to implement the *functionality* of parent tags.

I had exactly the same reaction. Letting you structure the tags so they display in a hierarchical manner when they don't actually behave in anyway other than flat was very confusing - and disappointing. I hardly bother with tagging in evernote as a result. When I have notes that need to be structured, I move them out of evernote.

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I had exactly the same reaction. Letting you structure the tags so they display in a hierarchical manner when they don't actually behave in anyway other than flat was very confusing - and disappointing. I hardly bother with tagging in evernote as a result. When I have notes that need to be structured, I move them out of evernote.

Can I ask what you move them to? I haven't found a perfect solution yet for my own notes (as opposed to captured odds and ends, for which EN is perfect), though Zotero comes the closest of anything I've found so far.

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Can I ask what you move them to? I haven't found a perfect solution yet for my own notes (as opposed to captured odds and ends, for which EN is perfect), though Zotero comes the closest of anything I've found so far.

I haven't found the perfect solution either, which is why I still play with evernote and one note and others. I guess my most used note taking program is WinOrganizer but it's winows only and its not free. It does allow me to create note hierarchies and link notes to each other. It doesn't have the ubiquitous capture and syncing of evernote but at least for synching you can get part way there using dropbox or windows live sync to keep the datafile synched across computers.

I'd like to drop winorganizer for evernote (or one note) but I find the flat list of notes doesn't work for me long term. If I have notes that I need to refer to frequently over time I want to put them somewhere where I know where they'll be - not watch it drop further and further into history, only recallable by some search. The search doesn't work because over time, as my notebooks grow, searches bring back more and more hits.

One note is pretty cool but its hierarchy only goes so deep (notebooks - tabs and pages) and although it is apparently built to sync they do not provide a syncpoint for all one note users. You have to have a shared folder or webdav host.

So I keep hoping some one program will combine the features I really want: easy capture, sync and organization so I can drop all these other ones.

But now, thanks to you, my problem has gotten worse because I have to check out Zotero now...

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But now, thanks to you, my problem has gotten worse because I have to check out Zotero now...

Well I might be able to save you some time: zotero doesn't have hyperlinks, so mightn't be any use to you if you need those. It's primarily geared towards academics and researchers, and makes it easy to create a database of references with associated notes. As a standalone note-taker it does have a bit going for it, in that it has both a folder hierarchy and tags, but being a firefox add-on is slower and has a rougher feel as a note editor than does EN. It does have a web sync facility, though the web side of it is as yet very rudimentary.

In an ideal world, I'd use Zotero for references and EN for everything else, but I can't do that until EN has some form of true hierarchical organisation.

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I am reading all this with great interest!

The problem would be solved (for me at least) if dragging to a sub-tag applied the parent tag too.

Tags are good and powerful because you can use the same tags in multiple notebooks, but it makes no sense to present them as sub-tags without them inheriting the parent tag . . as previous posters have said.

Can someone remind me the subtle difference in functionality between dragging a note to a tag as against a tag to a note?

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I think Dave Engberg's made it pretty clear here that there are not going to be subnotebooks. In their absence I agree that having the facility to automatically apply parent tags would be good.

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Really? You think the response to subnotebooks has been pretty clear? The closest thing to a clear "no" that I saw was in this post:

...

All together, this combination of metaphors and tools is moderately complex, and exceeds the total capabilities of comparable consumer applications. We would never say that this is the final end state of the product, but we are currently not doing any work to make these organizational metaphors more complex ... there are a lot of things more pressing for many users that we're working on right now. ...

I have pretty much assumed subnotebooks aren't going to happen. And as I've posted before I can deal with that provided tag hierarchies actually work like real hierarchies.

But I think claiming that Dave's post - or the "official word" from EN about this - has been "pretty clear" is far too generous. I am merely assuming that subnotebooks aren't happening, because it sounds like that is the case. I don't know for sure. Do you?

Evernote is a great product that I don't regret paying for. And I understand that there is a fine line to walk when promising features to your customers (don't want to over-promise, raise unrealistic expectations, still want to meet customer needs). But I don't think the Evernote staff has even come close to that line. There are a few posts where Dave (I think) responds by basically saying "tags are the way to go" - which is fine. But I'm still waiting to see about tag hierarchy implementation - whether it will ever go beyond a simple visual organizational gimmick. Without tag inheritance of some kind, it just doesn't work for me.

Sorry if I sound petulant. I'm tired of wishy-washy responses from software companies. I think the audience should be respected more. Tell us "No, we're not going in that direction" or "That's not going to happen in 2009." I think much of the frustration stems from not really knowing what the plans are. Too many people are asking the same questions. And that's just the audience that is participating on the forum. OK, I'll assume the direction of EN is tags and not subnotebooks. Can we get tag inheritance? Are there any plans for this? Can someone from Evernote please state whether this is being considered? On the horizon? A goal for 2009? I'm not asking for "we'll have tag inheritance completed, tested and released by Sept 2009." (but that would be pretty cool ;) )

Apologies in advance if the official answer has already been posted. But I doubt it has. I subscribed to a lot of different threads on this forum that are all asking essentially 2 or 3 questions. I'm not seeing any official answers from Evernote in the posts. That gets old real fast.

To their credit, the New Year's resolution e-mail was nice. That did provide some insight into EN development, and I appreciated that.

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Well, I find Dave's comment's clear unless someone insists on a 'never' rather than just a 'no' (and I can't think where you'd get that). If you look back at the context I had asked him to clarify so that people could either decide to use alternative tools where necessary, or just adapt to tags. I found his statement enough to convince me on a pragmatic level that it wasn't worth waiting for any hierarchical means of organisation, so I use a different tool now for projects, restricting EN for miscellaneous capture and search.

In general, I don't agree that software companies have any particular duty to inform customers/competitors of their plans, but EN has maybe invited the demand by adopting a subscription model. Buying a product with features fixed at the time of purchase is quite different to signing up for a period of time not knowing what you're going to get a few months down the line. So I agree there.

I'd also like real hierarchical tags (the current system is really a bit of a fake), so agree there also.

But the pragmatic upshot is unambiguous: if you need forms of organisation beyond EN's flat tag system, don't waste time waiting for it from EN, but find a more appropriate tool now.

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It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

ALLOW COPIES OF TAGS TO BE POSITIONED BESIDE THE NOTEBOOKS!!!

This will make it look like there are sub-notebooks.

Summary : -

Tags draggable to Notebooks (new behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Notebook get assigned to the Notebook (existing behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Notebook's Tag get assigned to the Notebook AND its Tag (new behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Tag get assigned to the Tag (existing behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Sub-Tag get assigned to the sub-tag and its parent Tag (new behaviour)

Clicking on Project2\Tag5 you would see only Notes in that Notebook with Tag5 (which is exactly the same as currently highlighting a Notebook and a Tag!)

Clicking on Project2 top level would obviously show ALL Project2 Notes (as currently)

Clicking on Tag5 in the Tag List would obviously show ALL Tag 5 Notes (as currently)

NoteBooks

+project 1

____tag1

____tag4

+project 2

____tag1

____tag5

+project 3

____tag1

____tag6

____tag7

Tags

tag1

tag2

tag3

+tag4

____tag5

____tag6

tag7

- No change to basic architecture or search function.

- People who like things just as they are dont need to drag tags to Notebooks and will perceive no difference.

- People who want/need sub-notebooks just use tags to create them.

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It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

One serious problem with flat tags is that they exist in one namespace. An example: it's a trivial issue with any hierarchical organisational system to have multiple instances of 'Chapter 1' or 'Introduction'. That's also the most natural way to express collections for the Chapter 1 or Introduction of several different projects. But it's impossible with flat tags.

Tags are useful. Hierarchical containers are useful. Each can to some extent be used in place of the other in some situations. But they are fundamentally and formally distinct.

I suspect I'm not the only person here who knows perfectly well that some of my projects need container hierarchies and am getting a bit bored of being told that they don't.

Edit: btw stuartibee, I do think your suggested enhancements are good ideas. They'd bring tags nearer to being a practical substitute for hierarchical collections.

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But the pragmatic upshot is unambiguous: if you need forms of organisation beyond EN's flat tag system, don't waste time waiting for it from EN, but find a more appropriate tool now.

First off, I want to thank you for responding so patiently. I was concerned I came across snarkier than I intended.

You and I agree on many points. Though we seem to have a different idea on what a clear answer means. I'd still argue (based on your response) that you had to *figure out* what Dave meant. My point was that if someone asks "Will you provide feature A?" Answering "We suggest using feature B, and here are reasons why feature B is awesome." - isn't really answering the original question. There are *implied* answers, of course. Hmmm... I can see this discussion veering off into semantic nit-picking. :D

In response to your more recent post - I can imagine it gets tiresome to be told that feature B can do the same as feature A - when A and B are really different ways of thinking about things. Your example of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" was great. Though I was one who originally asked for subnotebooks, I realized that *for me* I could probably get by with a true hierarchical tag system. I understand the different between tags and notebooks, but am willing to adopt one method (provided it gets implemented fully).

Subnotebooks != tags, even with inheritance. But for many, that inheritance would go a long way.

It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

(snip)

- No change to basic architecture or search function.

- People who like things just as they are dont need to drag tags to Notebooks and will perceive no difference.

- People who want/need sub-notebooks just use tags to create them.

Great suggestions. I promise to send cookies to the Evernote office if these features get implemented in 2009. And to you as well, provided you are in the U.S. (not American snobbery - just don't want to send perishables internationally)

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First off, I want to thank you for responding so patiently. I was concerned I came across snarkier than I intended.

No snarkiness detected (or offense taken).

All the (as you say) semantics aside, I think we know from Dave's posts here, along with recent announcements of priorities, that EN's organisational facilities are just not going to change fundamentally in the foreseeable future. So there's little point in more petitioning. Those of us who find a tag-only approach less than adequate either have to use something else, or work around the limitations. I use a combination of both (zotero for projects, EN for misc capture and storage).

Suggestions for workarounds and enhancements using tags (like stuartibee's) are welcome and useful, even if like me you need or prefer containers for some purposes.

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I suspect I'm not the only person here who knows perfectly well that some of my projects need container hierarchies and am getting a bit bored of being told that they don't.

There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept. You could think of 'Notebooks' as tags too. Your notes are a continuous ribbon.

Even on a desktop file system like XP your stuff is scattered all over the hard drive and the 'container folders' you perceive is a just labelling system.

Re-badge the hierarchical tags as 'smart folders' and make them behave properly and everyone is happy?

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There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept. You could think of 'Notebooks' as tags too. Your notes are a continuous ribbon.

I have to respectfully disagree. A note can only be in ONE notebook, hence the notebook is a container. If a notebook were a tag, you could have a note in several notebooks.

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I see the sub-notebook discussion is going on the same way it was several months ago when I last looked in on Evernote forum.

I now use Surfulater, www.surfulater.com. It has notebooks, and tags, and a growing capability to handle metadata.

It also manages to clip web pages with even greater accuracy than EN.

And the developer replies to queries from users.

From what I see the sub-notebook discussion is being ignored by EN.

For saving to the web when that is actually important in my work I use Microsoft's new, free program Thumbtack.

If you all want to continue using EN, and want sub-notebooks, then express yourselves in forums outside of EN, such as www.outlinersoftware.com

Daly

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After spending time on my Sunday morning replying to a dozen forum topics (and even more second-level direct tech support requests), it's refreshing to come in on Monday morning to hear from Daly that we don't reply to users.

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I'll admit that I don't always get what I ask for here, but hey, I realize that I'm only one of many. There may be a few threads that seem to fall through the cracks (but that's because we can't get what we want), but to say that EN doesn't reply to users...well, ffffflpppppbbbtttt.

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There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept.

Yes, the concept of containerhood, which flat tags don't instantiate.

Re-badge the hierarchical tags as 'smart folders' and make them behave properly and everyone is happy?

Hierarchical tags with independent namespaces, presented via a convenient UI, would suit my needs.

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From what I see the sub-notebook discussion is being ignored by EN.

I think you're confusing listening with obedience. 'No' is a perfectly reasonable response to a feature request.

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Ouch. Not sure what happened there. I "know" Daly (as much as you can know someone from reading their online postings) from other mailing lists/groups. I would describe him as helpful, intelligent, level-headed, even classy. This latest seems out of character. Believe me, I'm not one to shy from complaining/whining about the feature set I want. But to post on an external site that development of a product seems to have stopped because "your" features haven't been implemented/answered satisfactorily is out of line.

It's one thing to express disappointment, criticism, etc. Quite another to imply a company's product is vaporware. Not cool.

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It's one thing to express disappointment, criticism, etc. Quite another to imply a company's product is vaporware. Not cool.

Ah well, its understandable enough. We invest an awful lot of time in software we use a lot, and it can be frustrating not to have an influence over its direction. In an ideal world I'd dictate my desired feature set, which would change about every 2nd week, to my own personal team of developers. They'd hate me, but be sufficiently well paid to stay with the job.

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Hierarchical tags with independent namespaces, presented via a convenient UI, would suit my needs.

I sort of agree with Crispinb on this one, but I need to be able to drag copies of tags under notebooks, so that the same tag can appear under more than one notebook. Then it looks like sub-folders. : -

+NOTEBOOKS

Notebook1

______data

______notes

______tips-tricks

Notebook2

______data

______notes

______tips-tricks

+TAGS

application

assembly

construction

data

notes

tips-tricks

Surely this wouldn't be hard to do . . since there seems to be a pseudo-hierarchical tag thing working already?

Keep everything as it is. Just allow tags to be located under notebooks.

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Ok here is my view, I have been using EV at both home and work since 2.1 and paid for my personal copy for ver. 2.2

and I am still paying for my home copy and using free version at work. If there were subfolders it would probably be easier to keep them in one account. But even saying that, I've got over 200 tags in my work database so adding my personal database to that would be even more unwielding. What would be more key is a way to filter the tags by notebook. It would be an icon next to the Tags heading on the left and when activated would only show the tags that are normally highlighted in bold. This would help me find things a bit like the intersection area in ver. 2.2.

If I had it my way my data structure would look something like

+Notebooks

+Personal

finance

healthcare

etc....

+Work

+Projects

proj1

proj2

+Standards

ADOT

etc.....

+Tags

Control

Asbuilts

Field work

Scope of Work

etc....

Where if I selected a different notebook it would show me an other set of tags. If I needed a tag that was not shown I would either just type it in or use the drop down or unclick the filter icon and see them all.

Bruce

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Where if I selected a different notebook it would show me an other set of tags. If I needed a tag that was not shown I would either just type it in or use the drop down or unclick the filter icon and see them all.

I like this idea a lot. This would work well for me. I wonder how the idea of distinct tags would be implemented, though. Consider crispinb's scenario of multiple instances of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" within parent containers.

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I see my structure didn't space right :?

+Notebooks

___+Personal

_____finance

_____healthcare

_____etc....

___+Work

_____+Projects

_______proj1

_______proj2

___+Standards

______ADOT

______etc.....

+Tags

___Control

___Asbuilts

___Field work

___Scope of Work

___etc....

I like this idea a lot. This would work well for me. I wonder how the idea of distinct tags would be implemented, though. Consider crispinb's scenario of multiple instances of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" within parent containers.

I guess I not sure what’s missing here? If you select All Notebooks and tag "Chapter 1" you would see all the notes you have that have "Chapter 1" tag in them, If you select just the tag "Chapter 1" you can see which notebook it is in from the note book column.

Ok so playing with this a little more I see if you have tags for "Book1" "Book2" etc. and you select the tag "Chapter 1"

all the books that have a "Chapter 1" tag highlight, then you select the "Book1" tag also you only see the note for "Chapter 1" in that book. So I see the argument for not needing sub-note books. Now if the tags were dynamic so you only saw the tags that are now bolded in the selection set I wouldn't have to scroll so much.

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For my purposes that would be cumbersome (if I'm correctly following the suggestion). In Zotero (or plain filesystem directories, or anything with hierarchical structures available), all I have to do to work on Chapter 1 of Project X is click on that Chapter 1. That's it. And I easily stay in that context whilst working on chapter 1. Then it's just 1 click to work on the Intro of that project, etc. The ergonomics are good because a truly hierarchical means of organisation fits a hierarchical project.

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Subnotebooks would be great! I see their functionality as being different than tags. If you're relying on tags to replicate this functionality, then you'll end up with an unnecessarily long list of tags, and I'd rather be able to use tags to overlay another form of organization over my collected data. And speaking of tags, they're not that useful if I can't select more than one at a time, e.g. Family and Vacation and Tora Bora.

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