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Flier

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  1. Well, "if it is what it is," then why in the world would they set up a forum to collect enhancement requests? Your selection of a quotation to back up your position is either ignorant or duplicitous. Either way I think it's quite funny. Then next sentence following the one you cherry-picked is: "Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man." https://en.wikiquote.org/wiki/George_Bernard_Shaw
  2. Please keep us posted on this. I looked at Nimbus and it seems attractive, but as we all know the best software in the world is the stuff we just bought and have not yet installed. Nimbus claims an Evernote import function, too. I'd be interested to hear from anyone that has tried it. I like the Evernote concept but the lack of a folder hierarchy has kept it out of my mainstream work. I just use it as a sort of trash can for random things that I might want to find some day. These elaborate workarounds for its architectural deficiency have no attraction to me, no matter how many times DTlow tries to tell others what they need and what they don't need. Related comment: I too have been watching this thread for years. My theory on EN's reluctance to implement nested folders is that the underlying code was written years ago with a totally different view of what the app would do. Since then it has probably been patched, scabbed, and gumballed into what it is today and they are terrified to touch it any more than absolutely necessary. It is unlikely that they dumb guys, but rather guys that see the certain market reward as too risky and costly to chase. IOW they will just ride this horse into the ground as more capable applications replace it as the tools of choice. I will be interested to see how Nimbus Notes does. I believe that its ownership is Russian, which has its own uncertainties. Good for them, anyway, they are not owned by Huawei.
  3. @TonyMontanaSlot, it is important that you understand that @DTLow must approve your need or it does not exist. He is the self-appointed guardian of Truth and Light. His position is that if a use case can be met by workarounds using tags, no matter how complicated and baroque, then the problem is with the user and not with Evernote. I've been watching this thread for years, waiting for the announcement that Evernote has finally grasped the obvious. No luck so far.
  4. Having watched this thread for literally years, there is always the same scenario: Someone (like me) comes in asking for nested folders, a paradigm that has been common in computing for decades. Basically a no-brainer. Responses are of two types: (1) Explanations of why the user shouldn't want nested folders or doesn't need them. (2) Elaborate and somewhat opaque workarounds where the tagging system can be bent to serve the need. Maybe 6 months ago there was a post by an Evernote guy that implied that nested folders were in the works for at least the premium business version of EN. So I continue to monitor the thread. Someday I would like to use EN as a mainstream app and not as a sideshow where getting real work done is significantly impeded by a bad design decision.
  5. Yeah. Agreed. I don't know which is more impressive, his arrogance or the amount of free time he has available to spend on posting the same comments, over and over. and over. and over. Re "I am not interested in boohoo posts." Is that also a requirement , that your highness be interested in every post? Or that someone cares whether you are interested or not? ROFL.
  6. Maybe I missed reading the rule book. Are others required to prove to you that their viewpoints are valid? FWIW I am not seeing any proof here that your endlessly repeated tag workarounds to the folder problem are anything but that: workarounds. And clumsy ones at that.
  7. "There is a need for notebook hierarchy. We're working on it." Hallelujah! Thank you, Leo. I knew there was a reason I remained to subscribed to this apparently-fruitless thread all these years. "We're first starting with Spaces as the highest level container, and have intentions to add layers down - we recognize that hierarchy is important, especially for teams (it's almost impossible to find something someone else has added if you don't allow for some level of organization). We're also looking into how we can bring Spaces into non-business tiers. These changes aren't easy though. I'd love to hear more from you if you have specific use cases and needs (whether for hierarchy, or for Spaces in your non-business use). PM me." I'll just answer in the thread: There is no need to reinvent the wheel here. Nested folders have been around forever and all you have to do is to implement in EN the nested folder paradigm that you have been using your entire computing life. Ditch the arcane names like "spaces," "stacks," etc. and resist the temptation to add more of them. They are not just superfluous, they can become confusing. If, for marketing reasons, you need to have a zippy name for the top level folders beneath the root that is tolerable but please don't go further than that. For "cases and needs" you probably need to look no further than the data you have stored on your own computer. This thread has many examples as well. I will defer to the tag mavens to consider if and/or how tags should be applied to folders. It seems logical to me given the "taggish" style of Evernote but whether the folder tag name space should be separate from the folder tag name space, I don't know. There are probably other issues and considerations as well. Dare I ask for an estimated release date?
  8. " A new element Spaces is currently being rolled out. " Quite funny, actually. Now they have a three-level limited on nested folders instead of just two. Maybe in a few months they will invent a four-level hierarchy, etc. Clearly they know this lack of folder hierarchy is a problem, but they persist in adding kludges instead of just biting the bullet and doing what they should have done in the first place. The underlying code must be a such a gawdawful mess that they don't dare touch it. I mostly use Evernote for random web clips. Anything that needs organization stays either in my email reader's folder hierarchy or in the Windows folder system. Kind of a PITA to have two sets of folders relating to the same subject but that's the best I can do given EN's limitations.
  9. @SirPPingTon, what you are discovering is something that many of us have long since discovered: A request for nested folders here elicits two classes of responses. First, there are people who explain in great detail that tags are a workaround for the application's deficient design. Second, there are responses from fan-boys and Evernote employees to the effect that the application does not have nested folders and that Evernote has never shown the slightest inclination to fix the problem, so you can just forget about it. Neither class of responders has the slightest interest in the merits of the argument. IOW, we are wasting our time. I'm still subscribed to this thread, I guess for the amusement of seeing the little operetta replayed from time to time. Or maybe I am subconsciously optimistic. I dunno.
  10. ROFL. Excellent metaphor. I've been watching and occasionally contributing to this thread for quite a while and the paradigm is pretty standard. (1) Someone comes in asking for nested folders. (2) One or more EN zealots, DTLow always among them, come in to browbeat the poster for wanting this and to explain in excruciating detail how tags can be used as a workaround. (3) If the poster attempts to explain that folders have been a standard in computing for years and it is nearly brain-dead for a filing system to not support them, then the zealots attempt to drive him away. Re an earlier post, I don't think that EN has decided that nested folders are unnecessary for users. I suspect that there were some unfortunate design decisions very early in EN's development which make a change to nested folders difficult without an expensive and risky rewrite. That kind of thing happens frequently in developments as the early designers can never be perfectly prescient in knowing how the product and market will evolve. At the beginning, when the ship is leaving New York, it is pretty easy to make a destination change from Copenhagen to Barcelona. When the ship has sailed for a week and is approaching Barcelona, a switch to Copenhagen is much more difficult. So, if EN management indeed uses the word "unnecessary" IMO it is in the context of being able to grow and attract users even with this major deficiency. They are not dummies, they know the product should have this and, in fact, implemented the silly "stacks" concept in reaction. But IMO it is probably cost and risk factors that keep them from implementing what they really should have. DTLow, please do not attempt to answer this. I have read everything you have to say. Several times. It is always the same.
  11. A couple of amusing things I notice about the zealots who unfailingly arrive to attack posts requesting conventional folders: 1) They say the same things over and over, in old posts and new ones. Believing that repetition is a debating technique? 2) Frequent ad hominem attacks. i.e., "They can't adjust ... " 2) Unfailing arrogance, assuming that they are qualified to speak for all users . i.e., "We don't need ... " I am too old to know everything, but it is a stage that most of us, but not all, outgrew in our 20s.
  12. I''ll agree with obstinate but I'm not so sure about zealot. Granted there is a suffocating lot of fan-boy zealots that attack anyone broaching the idea of hierarchical folders, but from many years in technology development my guess is that reliance on tags was an architectural decision made very early in the product's life that now underpins the whole contraption. In the beginning, people usually have an idea of where a product is going and that idea usually turns out to be wrong. So as user behavior veered away from the expectations of the developer, some of the initial architectural decisions turned out to be wrong. But going all the way down to the foundation code to implement major architectural changes is both risky and expensive, hence "obstinate" probably applies for good business reasons. The appearance of stacks is probably a symptom of this. Stacks are a band-aid that was probably easier and less risky to implement than going to a full file system. The reality is that the longer this type of nearly-inevitable change is postponed, the more difficult and risky it becomes. In the mean time, it's entirely possible that a competing Evernote workalike with a competent file system will emerge and capture significant share. There is an old business rule: "If you don't compete with yourself, someone else will do it for you."
  13. Quite a funny post, actually. You betray your lack of experience with databases. Well over 20 years ago there was Lotus Agenda, which was actually quite an interesting piece of software with tag-like features. It failed miserably in the marketplace. (Wikipedia: " New users confronted with so much flexibility were often overpowered by the steep learning curve required to use the program." Sound familiar?) "A recent advancement" ?? Hardly. Long prior to computers, there were card systems where the edges of the cards listed all possible tags (maybe 20 depending on the size of the card) There were holes for each tag and a tear-out section which, when torn out, indicated that the particular card had the corresponding tag.. Knitting needle type rods were inserted into the stack of cards and the cards corresponding to a particular tag or a logical AND of tags fell out. Doing a logical "OR" or implementing more complex logical equations required multiple passes. (Edit: It looks like tags were "a recent advancement" in 1896. http://kk.org/thetechnium/one-dead-media/) There is a reason that tag systems are nearly extinct. They were outcompeted by nested folders, a system that is much easier to work with even though it lacks some of the power of tag systems and by relational database systems (E.F. Codd, circa 1970) because of their orderliness and power. One could even argue that Codd absorbed the more primitive tag system and imposed order on it. That is not to say that Evernote's tag system wouldn't be a good thing to keep after adding a hierarchical folder system, but the more modern folder system is still needed. Darwin has spoken. So, child, you present yourself as really naive and inexperienced.
  14. "ontologies" !??! Cute. Do you talk like that in real life? Tags are a workaround for a serious deficiency. Noting wrong with tags, but nested folders have been around since the dawn of computers because this is a useful paradigm. I stop back here about every six months to see if there is any clue that Evernote will be bringing its product up to the 50-years-ago state of the art. So far, no joy.
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