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Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks


cswsteve

Idea

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On 1/20/2021 at 5:44 PM, DTLow said:


I prefer to be more productive

 

Yes, it is quite productive to troll a thread for 10 years telling every new person who adds their voice to wanting this improvement why you think it can't be done, or why you think it shouldn't be done. That's the signature of somebody who is productive. 😄

It's about as productive a use of your time as the pinkelephant trolling the thread year after year telling people they should go find another product if they are asking for an improvement on a forum created by the software company itself asking for suggestions of improvements. 🙄

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@Tazzz Since you are offensive in your way to discuss things, nobody will discuss with you.

At least I won't. Read the thread (yes, all 17 pages) and you will probably understand why your insistence on hierarchical folders for EN is completely fruitless.

As I say: If you need a hierarchy to feel good, pick another tool.

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Wistfully checking again (my bi-annual check) to see if hierarchical structure is yet supported by Evernote. It seems you're either a Tag kind of person or a Hierarchy type but not both.

I'd be a premium customer in a flash if it gave me the option. Just asking your paying customers what they want doesn't always work. Ask Blackberry (nee RIM), as just one example

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On 6/30/2021 at 11:11 AM, DTLow said:

I merged your post with an ongoing discussion for notebook hierarchy    
You're welcome to add your vote to the request   
  
Evernote's primary organization tool is the Tags feature   
Tags include a hierarchy for unlimited levels

Then I guess it's got its priorities wrong, lol. For a beginner.. what purpose do tags serve? who needs that sort of extreme management, when you can already do so much with stacks and notebooks? I doubt the average user does.. and the pro users, who see faults in notebooks use tags, which make up a very small percentage. There is, quite literally, NO REASON to use tags. What,  to label notes into different tags? Not everybody needs that. It's really simple.. what do you need? To find a book? artist? Go into its notebook! I understand different users have their own use cases and have a need for tags, but for the vast majority that is literally how simple it is. What purpose do tags serve apart from being terrible and linking notes? I could go on and on about its faults and why it wouldn't be anywhere near as good as using notebooks, or at least for those that are currently using notebooks. Everything uses folders.. your telling me people are coming here thinking their going to use tags? 

I don't think the average user wants to go through renaming their tags when moving notebooks or note locations. It is in no way the primary organization tool in the eyes of the customers, for evernote, who knows, they probably developed it after having developed notebooks and just added hierarchy. A very simple poll on feature request can very easily solve the problem. Upon opening the app in a new update, ask: What do you think should be improved? and then a list appears with the top requested features, and start working on the most requested one. Or ask: Are you using notebooks or tags? if notebooks, would you like additional hierarchy? It's as simple as that. Listen to the user base - I bet tons of people would pay (including me) if some of the top feature requests were added. Or at the very least.. reply! it doesn't hurt to give a gush darn answer. Is it now possible to implement this feature? let us know. Are you considering it? let us know. Are you not sure? let us know. Do you not want to? let us know. It's not that hard to keep customers happy and updated on their requests and ideas after 13+ years. 

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Hi All

Just switched over to Evernote form OneNote because the old version keeps crashing on my desktop and the latest version...well Microsoft being Microsoft have decided to destroy what was the perfect and simplest note taking app

Anyways...

Been reading this thread.

OneNote allows you to create a notebook, have several sections and then several pages within each section. For me thats a perfect structure so easy to use its actually faster than using the search function.

I have tried stacks on here but it doesn't seem to go deeper than 1 level. 

Can you create a notebook and then create sub notebooks?

I mean this is just the simplest feature you would expect in any note taking app.

Im a cancel my premium if i cant get this feature. This is simple stuff

Thanks

 

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Is it not about time to permanently close this thread? And considering the sheer amount of messages from customers can we not just have an official statement from Evernote telling customers this will NEVER EVER EVER EVER EVER be implemented. This has gone on way too long and I feel bad for people still waiting for this feature to come some day. It wont ever come, Evernote does not want to build it and its pretty clear they want everyone to use tags, regardless of whether they are useful to the customer.

I gave up on Evernote for everything but scanning documents after waiting for this for several years, after using Nimbus Note for a while I don't regret the move. Evernote doesn't really have any killer features anymore and its very easy to transfer all your existing notes to another app.

It comes down to this plain fact...

Use Tags or Leave Evernote, its your only two options...

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The topic of this thread is exactly how I ended up in the discussion board. I have a notebook that has grown large and want to make it a stack within a stack. I was shocked when I couldn't do it! This seems like a no-brainer feature to add in. Then, to find out that many customers have been asking for this feature for about a decade to no avail is at least disturbing and at most negligent.

And in line with a bunch of the other comments throughout, I find, "But, you can do it with tags," to be wildly unsatisfying. I don't want to organize it like blogposts. I want to organize it like a hierarchy of subprojects within a larger project. Stacks within stacks makes that easy.

Evernote folks - Your product is great. I've been using it to organize projects and research and now that I've had additional responsibilities thrown my way, I've been leaning into EN even more. Please add this feature and move your product from great to excellent.

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On 11/26/2019 at 9:56 AM, gazumped said:

I'd hope it's been mentioned before in this thread,  but just to confirm - Evernote is based on a database layout which was originally designed in a specific way that does not - we've been told by people who work there - allow for a hierarchy of stacks or notebooks.  It would require a redesign of some underlying systems to allow that to be added.  The problem is that Evernote now hosts 250 million (or so) databases in that original format,  and making fundamental changes to the structure is not something that can be done lightly,  or overnight.  Regardless of the number of users who require that style of organisation,  it may simply not be worth it to Evernote to invest heavily in re-engineering the database and running risk of affecting their whole client-base.  Priorities are not involved here - it's like wanting to J-turn a cruise liner - a ship is not set up to make sudden turns and the passengers wouldn't like it if it did.

As to the archiving stacks question - as a subscriber,  you'll be able to switch between accounts on a desktop.  Why not set up your archive(s) in a separate Basic account to get them out of the way? 

It's called software development.It's not easy, but it's definitely a solvable problem. It's pathetic that they have ignored this basic feature for so long. It's just bad product architecture forcing us into bad information architecture Tags and folders are different constructs. That you can use tags to hack bad product architecture is not the point.  

Also, the backend database should not dictate how notebooks/stacks/etc are presented to the user. That's a UI-level concern. Just add another column to the database that stores the desired structure. This use case is not rocket science.

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On 3/20/2023 at 9:45 AM, swl64 said:

If it's a relational database just create another table to handle the hierarchical relationship.It's not that hard and it's really the UI that should do most of the work.

It is pretty laughable just how much of a joke the evernote development team have become in general... but unfortunately anyone who has any experience in software know this is an easily solvable problem. Even evernotes competitors advertise this feature as a selling point of switching to them.

But this was never a technical issue it was always a matter of ego, evernote dont think this feature is needed and 14 years of messages have done nothing to change their mind. They love tags, everyone should accept that despite the rest of the world using a hierarchical structure evernote knows better, its sad but true...

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We take every request in the forums as a feature request, yes.

Could you provide more information about how you see the difference? What is the task you want to accomplish with hierarchical notebooks that you can't do with hierarchical tags?

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Actually, the same thing can be accomplished with my "Auto Drag & Tag" feature request.

I'll explain.

In EN's current state, if the user is in the "Tips" notebook and highlights the "Linux" tag, then the note window shows only "Tips:Linux" notes.

I think that's much simpler than sub-notebooks because one can simply have a set of universal tags that apply to all notebooks and then hierarchical tags as needed. No need to replicate sub-notebooks.

Now, back to my idea.

The downside with the tags as opposed to sub-notebooks is in importing. Particularly, bulk importing (where is easy to lose yourself in the main notebook).

So, if one were able to drag/import files directly to the tag, the problem is solved.

It would work as follows:

The user clicks on the relevant notebook, let's use the above example: "Tips."

Then, the user would click the relevant tag, again with the above, "Linux."

Now, the user simply drags the file onto the "Linux" tag and the file is imported into the Tips folder and tagged as a Linux tip.

My plan is to use EN as a document management program in a law practice. As such, I would have 50 or so notebooks at any given time. Each notebook would represent an active client file. With my current setup (DEVONthink), I have specific sub-solders that are identical in each file. Those would become tags in EN. I desperately need a way to import directly into the specific notebook & tag.

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I have played around with the Tags and I guess what confuses me is the tags seem to be used to mimic subnotebooks. If you had subnotebooks you really would not need the tags. One of the big problems I had with OneNote is it did not handle subfolders/subpages very well. Yes, you could add a subpage but it seemed to only go one level deep.

What you have in the tags and subtags is exactly what you should do for the folders and let the tags be used for simply tagging your notebooks. If you take a look at "Ultra Recall" it allows you to create an unlimited number of folders/subfolders and makes organizing your data very easy. The problem with using the tags/subtags in EN is it seems to be double the work and take twice the space on the left. If I could just create a subnotebook I really would never need tags especially since the searching is so powerful. To me the tags are just another way to group my notebooks but if I could have subnotebooks I could group them from the start the way I want.

Here is an example of the Subfolders I have setup in Ultra Recall. This is just a small example as I have well over 100 subfolders of subfolders of data.

subfolders.png

What is so incredible about EN is the ability to have all your data on the Desktop, Web and iPhone and have it always in sync. I have not seen any other program be able to do this.

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In EN2.2, we have categories. They are a combination of notebooks, tags, attributes, and saved searches. You can have an entire hierarchy, and any one category could be made to filter (e.g., filter by type of note, creation date, containing text, etc.). Or, it could just be "dumb" without any special autocategorization.

There have been many long philosophical discussions on this forum as to what a category really was. Was it a tag, like del.icio.us? Was it a folder, like windows? Some of us liked it one way, some another, and some combined both methodologies without even thinking about it. Knowing these philosophical arguments, you can see why the new EN3 has separated out the four types now. Notebooks are like folders - a note can belong in any one folder. Tags are like del.icio.us tags; a note can have multiple tags. (We got a tag hierarchy because we begged for it, but unfortunately, it's not as powerful as the old category hierarchy from 2.2). Attributes are simply the auto-categories that could be created based on note type/format. And saved searches replace our regular autocategories, i.e., the categories that were automatically assigned based on something in the note. Of course, the new saved searches are much more powerful. But also limited, in that they stand by themselves, are stored in a flat alphabetical list, and are limited to a max of 32.

The current mantra is that to achieve the concept of folders/subfolders in EN3, you should just use tags, because they come with a hierarchy. I say this is not an optimal solution because:

1. I can automatically create a note in a particular notebook. I can (no longer) create a note in a new tag. I have to create the note, and then tag it. (Plus/minus any moving to the appropriate notebook).

2. If I have a tag and two subtags, there is no way for me to see all notes that are in the hierarchy. In 2.2, I could double-click on the tag, and it (and all of its children) were selected, with an OR, i.e., I would have the notes that were in the tag, OR in either of its children. This can still be achieved, but by a manual search, i.e., "any: tag:mytag tag:mytagchild1 tag:mytag2". Ugly and painful. One could argue, well make a saved search. See my discussion about how they're limited.

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My two cents about navigation/classification :D

I use Evernote as advanced notebook in professional and personal aspects.

Personal notes consist of my todo/to read notebook, clips from freebsd configs, bills & tickets, etc, earlier stored in personal wiki.

Professional aspect includes some analytical notes & stuff (and I wouldn't mind at this point if we'll be able to attach arbitrary file types :D

and my articles and reviews for few online magazines.

So I thought about classification scheme. It's clear for me that one-level notebooks and not-so-hierarchical tags (parents does not include child-tagged notes) are not enough to my goals. So there is my proposed scheme:

1) One-level notebooks works as "data domain" and sync/publish options --- as it is

2) Tags works in multi-dimensions instead of one (faceted classification). User can define facets (for example: projects, status, people, magazine) and values (projects: A,B,C..), status (draft, proposed, ready, published), people (Kolmogorov, ...).

3) Note are marked with pairs facet:value, f.e. status:ready

4) Search box works to find notes on multiple facets (status: draft magazine:CNews type:review) in combination with search phrase and attributes

5) Every search saves (as it is in Saved searches now) as some kind of virtual notebook

I think this scheme with some modifications (f.e. multilevel facets) will be not so hard to learn and have some flexibility to address many intermed. classification schemes. And case with one facet and many tags are simple one-dimension tags.

Sorry for my poor English

WBR, your premium user since June 2008 :D

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I recently switched from a Windows based PC to a Mac and have been searching for a replacement for OneNote. I think Evernote might just be the replacement, but the toughest thing for me to cope with in this switch is no hierarchical folder/notebook paradigm....one more vote for "subnotebooks". I hope the folks at Evernote have this in the works.

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Hierarchical notebooks are not in the next release of any of our clients. However, if you want to make hierarchical ontologies to organize your notes, you can do that in all of our clients today by using tags.

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This means that I've actually changed the kind of data I store in EN3. I don't keep anything "important" there, just scraps that I can dump into a notebook willy-nilly.

This is how I use EN3 (Mac) at home. Strictly for miscellaneous, unimportant tidbits of info. At work (EN2.2), I have virtually everything that is not an actual document in it, and use it as my central hub for everything else I do during the day. Completely different app, still, with completely different capabilities. :lol:

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Having just completed the importing of my delicious bookmarks into Evernote3 (all 700 plus of them, tags and all), I have suddenly seen the value of hierarchical tags! Each bookmark has one or more tags. To be able to group these tags into a hierarchical structure is a joy. Long live hierarchical tags!

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I'm also voting for subnotebooks.

The idea with tagging is great. However, tags work across notebooks, and they're great for some searches that are made well... across notebooks

If you allow tags to be nested, then why not to do the same with notebooks?

I'm using windows platform and recently switched from OneNote to EverNote and this is the very feature that's essential for me.

I'm using such an organizer to store all my files and notes, and I lead a busy life. I need a notebook for my voyages, for studies, and for my job. In the company I lead some projects and it's a lot easier to put every project in a separate subnotebook, and then of course I could tag it like "possible point of failures", "rewards" etc. The same is with my studies. I'd love to have each subject in its own subnotebook, each note tagged i.e. "general informaion", "exam session"... This means greater flexibility and makes the use of it more intuitive.

If this would be a lot easier for all of the people (there's no single voice it's a bad idea), it would really be a great improvement to see it this way...

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Hierarchical notebooks are not in the next release of any of our clients. However, if you want to make hierarchical ontologies to organize your notes, you can do that in all of our clients today by using tags.

I've looked at that, and tried it a bit. It will not work for my purposes. I understand that this is not planned for the next release, but is it even in the works?

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Thanks for this discussion. Consider this another request for subnotebooks. I really want to keep my work data organized separately from beer-tasting, etc... And the hierarchical tagging just doesn't cut it. I would like to be able to create definitive partitions, so that diagrams from work don't accidentally pop up while I'm in a discussion with friends about lager - how embarassing! (and vice-versa wouldn't be so good, either)

The only other option might be to set up 2 separate accounts - but I really don't want the hassle of that.

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I again add my own request for subnotebooks.

I have no doubt everything could be done with tags -- but my experience has been that things work best with a combined notebook/tag metaphor.

I have set up notebooks for my main subject areas -- but some second level notebooks would sure help.

If not for the next version, then when?

Similarly with the missing EN2 features -- on one hand you're having tremendous market growth, and so you should given the ingenuity and hard slogging you folks have put into it. However, it seems you're putting much weight on the idea that some of us will wait forever because of our loyalty. We loyal to a point, and as I have said before, please do not take us for granted.

While I have never paid a cent to Evernote, and I won't for extra web space because that isn't my thing, I would gladly pay the premium fee if it included subnotebooks, and all the features left from EN2.

I've talked about your market before. It seems there are two streams -- the one that want Web 2 style capability and mobility everything.

Then there is the stream that sees EN as a day-to-day workhorse, tied to research and writing, with phenomenal web data capture.

If there is a way to develop both streams concurrently, there'll be less noise from guys like me.

If other readers agree with me -- or if you think I am full of hot air -- I hope you all will make your positions known.

Thanks to all, including the developers of one great product.

Daly

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Hierarchical notebooks are not in the next release of any of our clients. However, if you want to make hierarchical ontologies to organize your notes, you can do that in all of our clients today by using tags.

Big mistake, IMHO. Tags are for taxonomy, not organization. Organization with tags resembles spaghetti. Folders are absolute and cleaner.

Anyway, I'm another "I'd go premium, if EN had folders" vote. I'm ready to throw money at you guys if you fix this usability issue.

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Count me as another in the "give me tree structure for notebooks, and I'll go premium" camp.

I won't bother repeating the reasons as the case is made well by the preceding comments in this thread.

Any comment from the developers?

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I'm reluctant to add a "me, too" post, but in this case I would like to say, yes, subnotebooks would be great. I like to be able to see all my notebooks on the screen and not have any below the monitor. Without subnotebooks that limits the number of notebooks I can use. Having all the notebooks helps make Evernote a highly useable program.

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I so get tired of this loudest minority gets what it wants. The reason that most people here are arguing for sub-notebooks and not tags is because we have tags. You all want sub-notebooks and so argue for it. Simple.

I think you are all being very narrow in your view of tags. They are a damn sight more useful than sub-notebooks. I can only have a note in one sub-notebook. But I can give the same note many tags?

Maybe with the use of voting and email they could ask all the users?

Blackrat

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Blackrat (And all the others that say that tags are better than subnotebooks)

Tags and subnotebooks serve two separate purposes. I have uses for them both.

For example, I am a law student. I have tags. They are: Book briefs,case briefs, concepts and rules. I have notebooks. Each class gets its own notebook. If I could have subnotebooks, then I could organize them by semester. This prevents my notebook list from getting too crowded.

-Justin

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Justin,

I do agree with you and use them in the same way. My only point is that if we only have the option of one or the other. Then tags are far more useful than sub-notebooks, IMHO..! If however we can have both then great, why we discussing it?

Blackrat

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Justin,

I do agree with you and use them in the same way. My only point is that if we only have the option of one or the other. Then tags are far more useful than sub-notebooks, IMHO..! If however we can have both then great, why we discussing it?

Blackrat

As yet, we haven't been presented with a reason why we can't have both. Every time a user asks for subnotebooks, EN comes back with "use tags". We're not asking to remove tags, we just want subnotebooks as well.

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Tags suck. I came here, hoping to find a setup issue I had with subfolders not being displayed. Disappointed to see so many requests and not one glimmer of hope in creating subfolders. Please listen to your audience. Everyone wants subfolders. Not one person anywhere here is arguing for tags. Seems a pretty clearcut distinction for what your users want.

Actually, not everyone is arguing for sub-notebooks; I don't really see the point when we have a perfectly good method of organisation in the form of tags! I've tried very hard to understand why you all seem to want subnotebooks and I haven't really seen a pursuasive argument yet that made it clear why subnotebooks would be better than the existing methods of organising notes. The only advantage I can see to using notebooks as the main means of organising things is that you can work "within" one notebook and have all your notes made during that session go to that notebook. If a similar feature was added for tags (which woud be pretty useful - i.e. whatever tag(s) is(/are) currently selected automatically gets added to any notes made) then this argument would be redundant and I wouldn't be able to see a single reason why subnotebooks would be necessary. I use tags for pretty much all of my organisation in Evernote; the only reason I have multiple notebooks now is to allow me to share them (e.g. my recipes & other food notes are in a separate public notebook so I can share them with other people). At first I started off with more notebooks but I actually found it more of an inconvenience because notes can only be in one notebook, whereas they can be in multiple tags. Justin (jameyer) used the example of having separate notebooks for each university class; well, I'm a student too and I actually found this method far too limiting - I had notes that related to more than one subject area (and also to more than one semester or year), so tags worked much better than notebooks.

I'm not saying that there AREN'T any good arguments for having subnotebooks, just that I haven't seen any that have persuaded me so far, and I'm guessing the same is true of the Evernote developers. If you believe so passionately that subnotebooks are much better than tags, then I think you need to give a comprehensive list of all the things you could accomplish with subnotebooks that can't be accomplished with tags. If you can manage that then the Evernote developers may take more notice. At the moment, to those of us in the "tag camp" it looks like you're all thinking a little too narrowly about tags; that may be totally unfair, but that's just how it looks to someone with a different perspective. Maybe if you can all explain your arguments more fully then the developers will be persuaded too!

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At least from my point of view, I'm arguing for subnotebooks because of the functionality that used to exist in 2.2. There, *categories* were the only form of organization, and yet they could be used either as *folders* or as *tags*. There were many long philosophical discussions about what a category really meant, and I think that forced the EN team to scrap the concept and separate the two concerns. Hence, we now have notebooks, which act as folders or containers, and tags, which act, well, like tags.

I see tags as something *extra* that I tag my notes with, kind of like sticking tape flags on certain pages in a physical notebook. If I were just clipping miscellaneous bits of information, e.g., a favourite link, a recipe, a tip, etc., then tags would probably be enough - kind of like the del.icio.us concept. However, I use EN for much more than just snippets. I tend to log my thought process in there, e.g., how I'm going about fixing a problem, how I'm researching a particular thing, etc. etc. In the real world, I would have a physical notebook, with sequential notes showing the whole process. I could then tag/flag various bits for easy retrieval later. Most of these notes belong in one place, e.g., Research Problem X. For me at least, the ability to have notebooks/subnotebooks would fit my work flow much better. That's not to say that I don't use tags, but I find them to be an extra step that is only useful when something really important needs to be noted.

You hit the nail on the head with the comment about being able to select a tag and have new notes automatically tagged. If that were the case, I would treat tags the same way I treated categories in 2.2. Alas, tags can only be assigned after the fact, and that's an extra step I'm not willing to take for most of my notes.

Hopes this helps explain the rationale behind my request for subnotebooks :)

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I am a little frustrated. There are a few people who come on here and they simply say that because we want subnotebooks, we aren't using tags correctly. Clearly, as the argument seems to go, we don't know what we really want, and the problem is that we just don't know how to use the software correctly. If we did,then we'd be happy with tags and there'd be no problem.

You, people who like tags and don't want subnotebooks, don't need to understand. If/when we get subnotebooks as a feature, you are welcome to not use them. However, please stop telling us that we don't need this feature. Obviously, we see a need for it.

I like tags. I use tags. But tags will not replace my need for notebooks. Unlike Missdipsy,my notes do not transfer from one class to another. Even if I read the same case for two classes, specific rule that I need to get out of it is different. There is exactly 0 overlap. I do not anticipate that changing.

Now, could I,if I tried hard enough, make tags work for me in the way that I want it? Yeah, I probably could. But, here's the thing. At the end of the semester, I need to do something with my notes. I don't need my torts notes anymore, but can't get rid of them because I will need them for the bar. So, I need a way to keep them out of the way. With tags, they are still floating around. I don't want to clutter up my life, and I don't want to clutter up my software.

Here's the bottom line: If tags work for you, mazel tov. Stop telling those of us who want the subnotebooks that we're wrong. Obviously, tags do not serve the purpose that we want. Tags will not replace notebook categorization for me. What's more, by telling me how wrong I am, you make me want to try and see your side even less. I have even less interest now in trying to make tags work for me. You don't need to understand our reasoning. If you don't want subnotebooks, fine. This is not the thread for you; please move on.

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You, people who like tags and don't want subnotebooks, don't need to understand. If/when we get subnotebooks as a feature, you are welcome to not use them. However, please stop telling us that we don't need this feature.

You're right, it's not me that needs to understand, it's the developers, but I'm here having this discussion and they're not. Hopefully, though, they'll read this, and they might change their minds if you can present a persuasive argument. I was trying to help clarify what it is about the subnotebook metaphor that you think works better than tabs, in the assumption that if you can convince those of us who don't get it, you can probably convince the developers too. Call it playing devil's advocate if you like!

It seems from what the developers have said so far that they don't get it either, so if you feel strongly then it's clear that you need to make them understand your point of view. To those of us who use tags as handy little multi-purpose labels/folders/categories/whatever it's difficult to see why you can't just use tags. I'm not saying you're wrong and I'm right, just that it isn't obvious to people who don't share your point of view.

The Evernote developers no doubt have a lot of features they keep getting asked for, in addition to the "road map" they will have planned out for Evernote, so they can't just implement every feature they get asked for (as someone else said, it could just be a vocal minority asking for this). I'm sure they could be convinced, however, if you can address the arguments against this feature request.

Also, I'm here because I'm actually very interested in how other people use Evernote. I read these forums to get a variety of perspectives and hopefully pick up some new ideas, perhaps even have some of my own ideas challenged. Funnily enough you don't tend to get that if you only ever talk to people who agree with you completely!

@Crane:

Thanks for your explanation. I used to use Evernote 2 as well, although less than I use Evernote now. I suppose I always thought of the categories as being like tags... but then I don't make much distinction between the idea of tags and folders anyway, to me they are just different metaphors for categorising things. In "real life" I'm forced to use physical location (folders, notebooks, shelves etc) as the main means of categorising things, which is rather restrictive since an item can only be in one place at a time, whereas in Evernote something can be in many places at once (using tags). I'd just have a tag for "Research Problem X", although I completely agree that it would be better if you could automatically apply selected tags to new notes, as you can with notebooks. It would make the workflow just that little bit smoother when you're working on a project. It can get rather tedious to repeatedly type in the same tags (although I have a habit of having a text file permanently open on my PC which I sometimes use as a kind of clipboard for things like that, but it would be nice if I didn't have to!)

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Please add me to the list of people requesting sub-folders.

The bottom line for me is that it is simply counter-intuitive to not have them. Users are used to the concept of sub-folders, whether in explorer, sharepoint, or whatever. Tags are great, and I know that they're all the rage these days and are hyped up by web 2.0, but it seems to me that forcing people down that way of thinking is not catering to how most users think.

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Crispinb, you've hit the nail on the head when you say that "organizing" is a different problem than "searching". I've been trying to use EN3 to hold all my notes from my new job. I'm in week #4 now, and I've come to the conclusion that EN3 is just untenable as a real notebook for me. Sure, it's great for absorbing a bunch of stuff that I send to it, and I surely do love the fact that I can use a shortcut key anyway to clip some stuff to it.

But I've been trying for 3 weeks now to figure out how to organize the stuff I've collected. So far I've only 400 notes related to work. I've tried different notebooks. I've tried one notebook with many tags. I've tried different organization of tags. I'm to the point where I have a set of tags that start with numbers, e.g., 001 Learn X, 002 Learn Y, etc. and have everything in one notebook. This requires me to, at the end of every day, look at ever untagged note and decide where (what project, really) it belongs.

But then when it comes to finding that "thing" I'm looking for, e.g., a note that I know I'm going to have to keep coming back to, I got frustrated. I created a Help tag, to hold all those special notes. To be honest, I find tagging a pain. I often forget to tag stuff, which makes the tags meaningless.

It was to the point where I was writing down the really important stuff in a notebook, for easy access. But then I started working on projects, and I want to keep project information together - useful URLs, documents that have been sent to me by email, my notes from meetings, etc. etc. Argh. EN was just not cutting it.

So, my new system, newly minted, is a combination of EN3 for instant dumping / easy searching for things I *might* need in the future. For actually organizing, e.g., project notes, pieces of info I'm going to refer to over and over, I've started a tiddlywiki. I always avoided them in the past, because of the pain of dealing with screenshots. But to be honest, although I take may screenshots while working through something, only a few ever need to be referred to again, and EN makes it easy to save an image to my hard drive. Then, I just link to it from the tiddlywiki. I was resistant to trying this out, but then I found myself about to create a web page to organize my URLs, because I have so many and the bookmarks in FF just wasn't doing it for me.

Long story short, my EN is now a giant container, like a sieve. Most stuff stays in EN, but some stuff, the really important stuff that I know I'll need for projects, gets brought into my TiddlyWiki. The wiki can be organized as I see fit, just like an interlinked set of web pages or notes. I get the advantage of choosing the order in which info is shown, I can link between notes (tiddlers) and I can link to files on my computer. It seems to be the best of both worlds for now.

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crane: yours is a very similar tale to mine, actually. I've been through a couple of iterations of trying to use Evernote for my project-related stuff, and always found it just too hard to keep a consistent form of organisation. Like you, I for a while even had notes reminding me of the tagging scheme to use within my projects. But that was a pain to keep maintained, and, in the end, a silly way to have to use a tool.

My solution is structurally similar to yours: I use Evernote as my immediate dump for everything, and as a permanent store for lots of disconnected stuff; but I use a different app for my highly structured, project-related info (Zotero, in my case).

It's worth commenting though on why I persisted in *trying* to find a way to use Evernote for projects, which is that in most ways it's so damned good. The local client is beautifully responsive and friction-free, the Firefox clipper is just the best, it's great to have everything mirrored on a decent web app, its development is moving forward at a really impressive rate, both Mac and Win clients, bugs are fixed quickly etc etc.

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It's worth commenting though on why I persisted in *trying* to find a way to use Evernote for projects, which is that in most ways it's so damned good. The local client is beautifully responsive and friction-free, the Firefox clipper is just the best, it's great to have everything mirrored on a decent web app, its development is moving forward at a really impressive rate, both Mac and Win clients, bugs are fixed quickly etc etc.

Yeah, I think it's back to the whole discussion about power users. A lot of people can just use EN right out of the box to collect miscellaneous *****. But there's a few power users out there who try to make it really work hard, e.g., serious searches (a la old category intersection), no-think tagging so you can have a trusted system, templates (oh, how power users miss templates), etc.

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I've been following this thread for some time and my first reaction was ...yes we definitely need subfolders ...what is it the developers don't understand about the way we've always created information storage hierarchies?

- Over the last couple of months I've added several hundred MB of files - watching the data share and index grow while performance becomes a little more sedate. As I continue to add data I'm starting to wonder whether my local computer will be able to manage a multi GB index efficiently ...or should I plan for multiple accounts?

I'd like to be able to further test the tag hierarchy paradigm without losing my current folder based organization.

Is it possible to copy the database to a new location and set it up not to replicate so I can see how well I could adapt to the tag data structure?

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I'd like to be able to further test the tag hierarchy paradigm without losing my current folder based organization.

Is it possible to copy the database to a new location and set it up not to replicate so I can see how well I could adapt to the tag data structure?

You can select a set of notes (or all notes) and then use the Export function to make a local export file. You can import this for testing elsewhere, into either normal (synchronized) or local-only notebooks.

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I will add my wish for subnotebooks. The fact is, different people think differently about how to organise things. My own personal preference would be to use a fixed structure in the form of a hierarchy of notebooks and then to add tags to allow searching and categorisation in a way that cuts across the notebook organisation. I use the same strategy in organising my photos in Lightroom, with a folder structure plus tags. Without this EN becomes less interesting for me and I anticipate using it now for relatively small collections of notes.

So +1 to the suggestion.

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I'm still using one of my templates in Ecco Pro to manage the projects that I work on. However, I like the ability to dump data of any kind from multiple locations into Evernote and be able to view that same data via different Evernote interfaces. I think what the power users of Evernote are looking for is a way to enter data ONCE in a folder of their choosing (hopefully with a minimal level of inheritance) with some kind of structure/hierarchy that mimics their VIEW of how data should be stored. Once this data has been entered into the appropriate folder, TAGS can be used to cross pollinate a data element across multiple fields, which can then be used in your search engine with the necessary tagging to find said data.

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Like most folks, I've used the subfolder notion for years, in Unix & Windows file systems, in Outlook, and in many other places.

More recently, I've come to appreciate tagging and have gone through multiple learning processes with them. Tagging is very popular in modern Web-based collaboration (Web 2.0 or whatever). I've used them with Outlook categories, Shadow Plan & SmartList for Palm OS, Google Mail (Gmail), Google Reader (Greader), Evernote, FireFox bookmarks, etc.

Like most folks, over the years, I've evolved a directory tree structure I like for file systems, and I set that up when I get a new machine or a new drive. Also, I've noted similarities to the various bookmark, category (like Outlook), and tag sets that have evolved, and I am now in a mode of aligning them; soon, I will have them fully aligned and will become more rigorous as to how I assign tags to content.

After all that, here's what I find:

(1) In file systems, I find myself frequently wanting to use (Unix/Linux) symlinks or (Windows) shortcuts to implement exceptions within the otherwise hierarchical structure of file system content. Still, if the tree structure is good enough, the need for them is somewhat rare, but always present.

(2) In tag sytems (my use of them is most mature in gmail, so I'll use that for examples), most of my messages are tagged twice or three times; examples include (each tuple are tags for one message):

(2a) {order, books}, {order, gear}, {order, clothing}, {order, clothing, john};

(2b) {family}, {colleague}, {family, event}, {event, music}, {colleague, event, conference, IT};

(2c) {career}, {career, opportunity}, {career, education}; and

(2d) {community, social}, {community, career}, {community, organization}.

(3) Subfolders/subnotebooks by themselves is nowhere near sufficient.

(4) Tags by themselves are powerful, especially once mastered. But they exact a price:

(4a) It takes me a handful of clicks or keystrokes to get a message tagged in gmail. If I were less OCD, less nerdy, or less intent on having a searchable message store, I would've abandoned it long ago due to productivity loss.

(4b) Getting hierarchical structuring done via tagging IS possible; but again, at a cost in productivity (and complexity).

(4c) The creative mechanisms I put in place as I refine my tagging are great, but they are not policed. I mistag stuff every day, and I realize it sometimes immediately and sometimes much later. Regardless, I live with knowing there will always be exceptions due to mistagging; my lists of, say, orders are not complete, for example.

(5) When developing code, I've learned -- after using SmallTalk & others purely hierarchical (single) inheritance methods, Java single inheritance with multiple interface inheritance, C++ with multiple inheritance, and so on and on -- that there is no "right" answer as to how best to model a problem, a solution, or the world.

So.........., here is my proposal...............

(1) Let there be subfolders, unless the developers REALLY consider this to be hard or bad in some other way. There's just going to be a level of comfort they will yield, and without them, there will be too many folks who will be put off by or tempted to stray from Evernote.

(2) Tagging is really great. Let there be tags. Let there also be a forum specifically for tag structures or usage mechanisms to be used like templates to help users get the most out of them. Evernote can contribute as well as users to this compendium.

(3) THE way (in my opinion) to enable productive tagging is to provide (pop-up?) CHECKLISTS of tags. If a list gets too big, SCROLL it (probably HORIZONTALLY, like Windows Explorer List View, as opposed to Details View). Tagging gmail-style is 'way too slow.

(4) For rigorous tagging to be feasible for those of us who may NOT be OCD or sufficiently nerdy, let's get a smidgeon creative regarding tags. Mature tag sets tend to have at least partial relationships between tags. An example of mine above is that a message (note) representing an "order" should generally have a tag representing the kind of thing being ordered and possibly who it might be ordered for. Another is that a note of an "event" is pretty barren without also knowing what kind of event it is, and depending on that (like "music" vs "conference"), it might also be annotated with "IT" or "concert" or something. We could implement tag hierarchies this way, if the relationship is a full one (enforceable) rather than partial (user's option).

(5) To accomplish #4, I suggest that power tag users have a Settings section wherein they can define relationships between tags. The effect of a relationship is to be prompted with a list of optional "sub" tags. Now, this is arguably icing on the cake; #4 is the main deal. BUT an additional benefit of #5 is that Evernote could then help the user achieve INTEGRITY by ensuring the relationships are maintained or at least not violated.

I have spoken. :-)

This topic shouldn't degenerate into the subnotebookers vs the taggers. Most of us probably use both right now. If someone gets frustrated and inadvertently snubs the other, let's relax and give each other a bit of a break.

-bc

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Awesome reply. You should be working, or at least consulting for evernote.

My main deal is that I don't like having to remember every tag that something should have. If I had a pop up list of check marked, hierarchical tags that could be set to automatically apply tags higher up the hierarchy that would be awesome. I'm a very visual person and really want some sort of visual hierarchy of tags in the clip to evernote window and the ability quickly check them off instead of typing, arrowing, tabbing, etc.

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Awesome reply. You should be working, or at least consulting for evernote.

It is easy for me to imagine all sorts of wonderful solutions, since I don't have to spend time actually doing it. I'm sure Dave's ideas are just as good, but he has things to worry about as he guides this thing along its path, and everything takes time. And I am known for being very long-winded (sigh).

My main deal is that I don't like having to remember every tag that something should have. If I had a pop up list of check marked, hierarchical tags that could be set to automatically apply tags higher up the hierarchy that would be awesome. I'm a very visual person and really want some sort of visual hierarchy of tags in the clip to evernote window and the ability quickly check them off instead of typing, arrowing, tabbing, etc.

When I left HP a couple of months ago, I moved from using MS Office 2003 to the 2007 edition. It has the "ribbons" along the top. I'm still not fully adjusted to it, occasionally failing to find the place where the function I need might be buried. But I nevertheless consider it to be an advance, at least for casual users, as it is very visual. Power users tend to like menu navigation sequences, keystrokes, or even commands. Power users can tag very quickly if tags are searched keystroke by keystroke in real time. For general users, I like the idea of having a 6-8-line-tall ribbon of checkboxed tags with +- symbols to expand & collapse tag hierarchies. It would extend to the right however far and scroll horizontally if it needs to. Keys and buttons to toggle it on or off, expand all, and collapse all. Hard hierarchies (like Colored, Colored.Red, and Colored.Taupe) would have the behavior that checking Colored.Taupe automatically causes Colored to be checked (and conversely, ...).

That partial or soft relationship between tags (like my Order may or may not need an item type, but it ideally would have additional attributes/tags), and if the mechanism can expedite that, that would be great; it's sort of like required & optional "attributes" in an "element" in XML. This part of it is at the edge of my UX (user experience) imagination at the moment; I'm not quite sure how that might work. The main thing is that multitagging should be very quick and maximally assisted for both productivity and integrity. The thing I'm working on at the moment is to determine what checks to clear and what checks to check or leave checked after a note has been tagged and until the next one comes up. Perhaps one could define a filter (saved search?) that, when satisfied, causes certain tags to be set, among other things. (shrug) And whether these ideas are shared by others or by Dave, I have no idea at all. Please chime in. For me, I'd like to searches and the actions to take and such to all be scriptable -- like Ruby or Python (I'm a Ruby/JRuby/Groovy man myself, but whatever).

My main model is that of research info capture and profiling/categorizing. But Evernote could be useful in many other ways as well. I'd like to use it as an RSS/Atom feed reader, as a blog editor/viewer, and so on and on. Each kind of use will demand certain UX features. I heavily use a tool called PersonalBrain (TheBrain.com). It is a very useful tool that can be leveraged in so many ways that it has a major identity crisis, in my opinion. Things they do for the calendar/to do list folks sometimes ***** up the research/knowledge folks like me. So far, not too badly, though. I think Evernote is a bit like that at the moment. By the way, Dave, I'd really like to see Evernote and PersonalBrain interfaced together. Both are pure Java and have APIs, so it should be readily doable, I would think. But both tools need to evolve a lot on their own, as well.

-amb

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I am really disappointed. I recently paid for a Premium account. I love Evernote. I love how responsive they seem to be on this forum. But I just don't understand the implementation of tags.

I've been learning Evernote, and saw this thread earlier this week. I didn't read through all the posts, but skimming some of the posts, I figured, a "folders guy," if I wanted to use Evernote I was going to have to switch to the tag paradigm. Not a huge deal (so I thought). I understand folders and tags are different ways to organize. But on some levels, folders and tags differ by semantics, style or preference.

As I have been setting up Evernote for my use, I honestly thought parent tags would "contain" child tags - that is, child tags applied to a note would automatically include the parent tags they belong to. I didn't even consider the concept of parent tags would be used if they weren't really "parent" tags. To me, the whole point of *visually* creating parent tags was to implement the *functionality* of parent tags.

OK. So now I've read this thread in its entirety. There are some well-articulated arguments for both styles of organization. Yes, I'd like to have Subnotebooks. I think the best use of Evernote for me will be a hierarchy of notebooks *and* a hierarchy of tags. Evernote seems to be pushing tags, at least for now. I can deal with a tags-centric approach. But at the every least, I need to have true parent tags (inheritance). Is this in the works?

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Hi all,

I came across Evernote recently while searching for a replacement to "Anynotes" that would work on the iphone. I am extremely impressed with this suite and decided to register on the forum to add my two cents to this discussion & my name to the list of those requesting subfolders.

I believe the addition of subfolders would add a greater level of organisation to all and particularly those who structure their notes/work/life(!) in this way. I also use tags in other web 2.0 apps, but do believe there is a limitation in their lack of structure (FYI - Flickr as an example now offers both structures). Putting notes into a tree-like store is intuitive to those who use digital and paper files in the office every day. The ability to have a collapsible directory of notes would make navigating this system on an regular basis much faster and far more user-friendly.

For myself, I keep 3 notebooks (Work, Personal, Property) and maintain a structure within each. So for me to store a detail of an advert I have placed, in my head - the structure is as follows.....

Work

^--------Business 1

.................^-----------1.Purchasing

.................^-----------2.Processing

....................................^-----------Advertising

........................................................^-----------Newspaper

..........................................................................^-----------Financial Times (Putting notes in here for example)

.................^-----------3.Sales

^--------Business 2

^--------Business 3

If I was to accurately store a note to the example above, I would have to tag (Business 1, Process, Advertising, Newspaper, Financial Times) just to store it as I need it. As I keep a large number of small notes in such a folder as above, this becomes particularly tedious, where dragging it to a folder in a structure makes things far less time consuming.

I hope this could be considered in a future release, even as an option for stuck-in-their-ways type users like me, as I do believe it would set this program apart in terms of functionality and simplicity.

Thanks to the creators of the program - keep up the good work.

D P

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I honestly thought parent tags would "contain" child tags - that is, child tags applied to a note would automatically include the parent tags they belong to. I didn't even consider the concept of parent tags would be used if they weren't really "parent" tags. To me, the whole point of *visually* creating parent tags was to implement the *functionality* of parent tags.

I had exactly the same reaction. Letting you structure the tags so they display in a hierarchical manner when they don't actually behave in anyway other than flat was very confusing - and disappointing. I hardly bother with tagging in evernote as a result. When I have notes that need to be structured, I move them out of evernote.

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I had exactly the same reaction. Letting you structure the tags so they display in a hierarchical manner when they don't actually behave in anyway other than flat was very confusing - and disappointing. I hardly bother with tagging in evernote as a result. When I have notes that need to be structured, I move them out of evernote.

Can I ask what you move them to? I haven't found a perfect solution yet for my own notes (as opposed to captured odds and ends, for which EN is perfect), though Zotero comes the closest of anything I've found so far.

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Can I ask what you move them to? I haven't found a perfect solution yet for my own notes (as opposed to captured odds and ends, for which EN is perfect), though Zotero comes the closest of anything I've found so far.

I haven't found the perfect solution either, which is why I still play with evernote and one note and others. I guess my most used note taking program is WinOrganizer but it's winows only and its not free. It does allow me to create note hierarchies and link notes to each other. It doesn't have the ubiquitous capture and syncing of evernote but at least for synching you can get part way there using dropbox or windows live sync to keep the datafile synched across computers.

I'd like to drop winorganizer for evernote (or one note) but I find the flat list of notes doesn't work for me long term. If I have notes that I need to refer to frequently over time I want to put them somewhere where I know where they'll be - not watch it drop further and further into history, only recallable by some search. The search doesn't work because over time, as my notebooks grow, searches bring back more and more hits.

One note is pretty cool but its hierarchy only goes so deep (notebooks - tabs and pages) and although it is apparently built to sync they do not provide a syncpoint for all one note users. You have to have a shared folder or webdav host.

So I keep hoping some one program will combine the features I really want: easy capture, sync and organization so I can drop all these other ones.

But now, thanks to you, my problem has gotten worse because I have to check out Zotero now...

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But now, thanks to you, my problem has gotten worse because I have to check out Zotero now...

Well I might be able to save you some time: zotero doesn't have hyperlinks, so mightn't be any use to you if you need those. It's primarily geared towards academics and researchers, and makes it easy to create a database of references with associated notes. As a standalone note-taker it does have a bit going for it, in that it has both a folder hierarchy and tags, but being a firefox add-on is slower and has a rougher feel as a note editor than does EN. It does have a web sync facility, though the web side of it is as yet very rudimentary.

In an ideal world, I'd use Zotero for references and EN for everything else, but I can't do that until EN has some form of true hierarchical organisation.

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I am reading all this with great interest!

The problem would be solved (for me at least) if dragging to a sub-tag applied the parent tag too.

Tags are good and powerful because you can use the same tags in multiple notebooks, but it makes no sense to present them as sub-tags without them inheriting the parent tag . . as previous posters have said.

Can someone remind me the subtle difference in functionality between dragging a note to a tag as against a tag to a note?

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Really? You think the response to subnotebooks has been pretty clear? The closest thing to a clear "no" that I saw was in this post:

...

All together, this combination of metaphors and tools is moderately complex, and exceeds the total capabilities of comparable consumer applications. We would never say that this is the final end state of the product, but we are currently not doing any work to make these organizational metaphors more complex ... there are a lot of things more pressing for many users that we're working on right now. ...

I have pretty much assumed subnotebooks aren't going to happen. And as I've posted before I can deal with that provided tag hierarchies actually work like real hierarchies.

But I think claiming that Dave's post - or the "official word" from EN about this - has been "pretty clear" is far too generous. I am merely assuming that subnotebooks aren't happening, because it sounds like that is the case. I don't know for sure. Do you?

Evernote is a great product that I don't regret paying for. And I understand that there is a fine line to walk when promising features to your customers (don't want to over-promise, raise unrealistic expectations, still want to meet customer needs). But I don't think the Evernote staff has even come close to that line. There are a few posts where Dave (I think) responds by basically saying "tags are the way to go" - which is fine. But I'm still waiting to see about tag hierarchy implementation - whether it will ever go beyond a simple visual organizational gimmick. Without tag inheritance of some kind, it just doesn't work for me.

Sorry if I sound petulant. I'm tired of wishy-washy responses from software companies. I think the audience should be respected more. Tell us "No, we're not going in that direction" or "That's not going to happen in 2009." I think much of the frustration stems from not really knowing what the plans are. Too many people are asking the same questions. And that's just the audience that is participating on the forum. OK, I'll assume the direction of EN is tags and not subnotebooks. Can we get tag inheritance? Are there any plans for this? Can someone from Evernote please state whether this is being considered? On the horizon? A goal for 2009? I'm not asking for "we'll have tag inheritance completed, tested and released by Sept 2009." (but that would be pretty cool ;) )

Apologies in advance if the official answer has already been posted. But I doubt it has. I subscribed to a lot of different threads on this forum that are all asking essentially 2 or 3 questions. I'm not seeing any official answers from Evernote in the posts. That gets old real fast.

To their credit, the New Year's resolution e-mail was nice. That did provide some insight into EN development, and I appreciated that.

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Well, I find Dave's comment's clear unless someone insists on a 'never' rather than just a 'no' (and I can't think where you'd get that). If you look back at the context I had asked him to clarify so that people could either decide to use alternative tools where necessary, or just adapt to tags. I found his statement enough to convince me on a pragmatic level that it wasn't worth waiting for any hierarchical means of organisation, so I use a different tool now for projects, restricting EN for miscellaneous capture and search.

In general, I don't agree that software companies have any particular duty to inform customers/competitors of their plans, but EN has maybe invited the demand by adopting a subscription model. Buying a product with features fixed at the time of purchase is quite different to signing up for a period of time not knowing what you're going to get a few months down the line. So I agree there.

I'd also like real hierarchical tags (the current system is really a bit of a fake), so agree there also.

But the pragmatic upshot is unambiguous: if you need forms of organisation beyond EN's flat tag system, don't waste time waiting for it from EN, but find a more appropriate tool now.

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It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

ALLOW COPIES OF TAGS TO BE POSITIONED BESIDE THE NOTEBOOKS!!!

This will make it look like there are sub-notebooks.

Summary : -

Tags draggable to Notebooks (new behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Notebook get assigned to the Notebook (existing behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Notebook's Tag get assigned to the Notebook AND its Tag (new behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Tag get assigned to the Tag (existing behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Sub-Tag get assigned to the sub-tag and its parent Tag (new behaviour)

Clicking on Project2\Tag5 you would see only Notes in that Notebook with Tag5 (which is exactly the same as currently highlighting a Notebook and a Tag!)

Clicking on Project2 top level would obviously show ALL Project2 Notes (as currently)

Clicking on Tag5 in the Tag List would obviously show ALL Tag 5 Notes (as currently)

NoteBooks

+project 1

____tag1

____tag4

+project 2

____tag1

____tag5

+project 3

____tag1

____tag6

____tag7

Tags

tag1

tag2

tag3

+tag4

____tag5

____tag6

tag7

- No change to basic architecture or search function.

- People who like things just as they are dont need to drag tags to Notebooks and will perceive no difference.

- People who want/need sub-notebooks just use tags to create them.

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It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

One serious problem with flat tags is that they exist in one namespace. An example: it's a trivial issue with any hierarchical organisational system to have multiple instances of 'Chapter 1' or 'Introduction'. That's also the most natural way to express collections for the Chapter 1 or Introduction of several different projects. But it's impossible with flat tags.

Tags are useful. Hierarchical containers are useful. Each can to some extent be used in place of the other in some situations. But they are fundamentally and formally distinct.

I suspect I'm not the only person here who knows perfectly well that some of my projects need container hierarchies and am getting a bit bored of being told that they don't.

Edit: btw stuartibee, I do think your suggested enhancements are good ideas. They'd bring tags nearer to being a practical substitute for hierarchical collections.

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But the pragmatic upshot is unambiguous: if you need forms of organisation beyond EN's flat tag system, don't waste time waiting for it from EN, but find a more appropriate tool now.

First off, I want to thank you for responding so patiently. I was concerned I came across snarkier than I intended.

You and I agree on many points. Though we seem to have a different idea on what a clear answer means. I'd still argue (based on your response) that you had to *figure out* what Dave meant. My point was that if someone asks "Will you provide feature A?" Answering "We suggest using feature B, and here are reasons why feature B is awesome." - isn't really answering the original question. There are *implied* answers, of course. Hmmm... I can see this discussion veering off into semantic nit-picking. :D

In response to your more recent post - I can imagine it gets tiresome to be told that feature B can do the same as feature A - when A and B are really different ways of thinking about things. Your example of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" was great. Though I was one who originally asked for subnotebooks, I realized that *for me* I could probably get by with a true hierarchical tag system. I understand the different between tags and notebooks, but am willing to adopt one method (provided it gets implemented fully).

Subnotebooks != tags, even with inheritance. But for many, that inheritance would go a long way.

It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

(snip)

- No change to basic architecture or search function.

- People who like things just as they are dont need to drag tags to Notebooks and will perceive no difference.

- People who want/need sub-notebooks just use tags to create them.

Great suggestions. I promise to send cookies to the Evernote office if these features get implemented in 2009. And to you as well, provided you are in the U.S. (not American snobbery - just don't want to send perishables internationally)

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First off, I want to thank you for responding so patiently. I was concerned I came across snarkier than I intended.

No snarkiness detected (or offense taken).

All the (as you say) semantics aside, I think we know from Dave's posts here, along with recent announcements of priorities, that EN's organisational facilities are just not going to change fundamentally in the foreseeable future. So there's little point in more petitioning. Those of us who find a tag-only approach less than adequate either have to use something else, or work around the limitations. I use a combination of both (zotero for projects, EN for misc capture and storage).

Suggestions for workarounds and enhancements using tags (like stuartibee's) are welcome and useful, even if like me you need or prefer containers for some purposes.

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I suspect I'm not the only person here who knows perfectly well that some of my projects need container hierarchies and am getting a bit bored of being told that they don't.

There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept. You could think of 'Notebooks' as tags too. Your notes are a continuous ribbon.

Even on a desktop file system like XP your stuff is scattered all over the hard drive and the 'container folders' you perceive is a just labelling system.

Re-badge the hierarchical tags as 'smart folders' and make them behave properly and everyone is happy?

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There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept. You could think of 'Notebooks' as tags too. Your notes are a continuous ribbon.

I have to respectfully disagree. A note can only be in ONE notebook, hence the notebook is a container. If a notebook were a tag, you could have a note in several notebooks.

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After spending time on my Sunday morning replying to a dozen forum topics (and even more second-level direct tech support requests), it's refreshing to come in on Monday morning to hear from Daly that we don't reply to users.

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I'll admit that I don't always get what I ask for here, but hey, I realize that I'm only one of many. There may be a few threads that seem to fall through the cracks (but that's because we can't get what we want), but to say that EN doesn't reply to users...well, ffffflpppppbbbtttt.

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There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept.

Yes, the concept of containerhood, which flat tags don't instantiate.

Re-badge the hierarchical tags as 'smart folders' and make them behave properly and everyone is happy?

Hierarchical tags with independent namespaces, presented via a convenient UI, would suit my needs.

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Ouch. Not sure what happened there. I "know" Daly (as much as you can know someone from reading their online postings) from other mailing lists/groups. I would describe him as helpful, intelligent, level-headed, even classy. This latest seems out of character. Believe me, I'm not one to shy from complaining/whining about the feature set I want. But to post on an external site that development of a product seems to have stopped because "your" features haven't been implemented/answered satisfactorily is out of line.

It's one thing to express disappointment, criticism, etc. Quite another to imply a company's product is vaporware. Not cool.

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It's one thing to express disappointment, criticism, etc. Quite another to imply a company's product is vaporware. Not cool.

Ah well, its understandable enough. We invest an awful lot of time in software we use a lot, and it can be frustrating not to have an influence over its direction. In an ideal world I'd dictate my desired feature set, which would change about every 2nd week, to my own personal team of developers. They'd hate me, but be sufficiently well paid to stay with the job.

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Hierarchical tags with independent namespaces, presented via a convenient UI, would suit my needs.

I sort of agree with Crispinb on this one, but I need to be able to drag copies of tags under notebooks, so that the same tag can appear under more than one notebook. Then it looks like sub-folders. : -

+NOTEBOOKS

Notebook1

______data

______notes

______tips-tricks

Notebook2

______data

______notes

______tips-tricks

+TAGS

application

assembly

construction

data

notes

tips-tricks

Surely this wouldn't be hard to do . . since there seems to be a pseudo-hierarchical tag thing working already?

Keep everything as it is. Just allow tags to be located under notebooks.

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Ok here is my view, I have been using EV at both home and work since 2.1 and paid for my personal copy for ver. 2.2

and I am still paying for my home copy and using free version at work. If there were subfolders it would probably be easier to keep them in one account. But even saying that, I've got over 200 tags in my work database so adding my personal database to that would be even more unwielding. What would be more key is a way to filter the tags by notebook. It would be an icon next to the Tags heading on the left and when activated would only show the tags that are normally highlighted in bold. This would help me find things a bit like the intersection area in ver. 2.2.

If I had it my way my data structure would look something like

+Notebooks

+Personal

finance

healthcare

etc....

+Work

+Projects

proj1

proj2

+Standards

ADOT

etc.....

+Tags

Control

Asbuilts

Field work

Scope of Work

etc....

Where if I selected a different notebook it would show me an other set of tags. If I needed a tag that was not shown I would either just type it in or use the drop down or unclick the filter icon and see them all.

Bruce

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Where if I selected a different notebook it would show me an other set of tags. If I needed a tag that was not shown I would either just type it in or use the drop down or unclick the filter icon and see them all.

I like this idea a lot. This would work well for me. I wonder how the idea of distinct tags would be implemented, though. Consider crispinb's scenario of multiple instances of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" within parent containers.

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I see my structure didn't space right :?

+Notebooks

___+Personal

_____finance

_____healthcare

_____etc....

___+Work

_____+Projects

_______proj1

_______proj2

___+Standards

______ADOT

______etc.....

+Tags

___Control

___Asbuilts

___Field work

___Scope of Work

___etc....

I like this idea a lot. This would work well for me. I wonder how the idea of distinct tags would be implemented, though. Consider crispinb's scenario of multiple instances of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" within parent containers.

I guess I not sure what’s missing here? If you select All Notebooks and tag "Chapter 1" you would see all the notes you have that have "Chapter 1" tag in them, If you select just the tag "Chapter 1" you can see which notebook it is in from the note book column.

Ok so playing with this a little more I see if you have tags for "Book1" "Book2" etc. and you select the tag "Chapter 1"

all the books that have a "Chapter 1" tag highlight, then you select the "Book1" tag also you only see the note for "Chapter 1" in that book. So I see the argument for not needing sub-note books. Now if the tags were dynamic so you only saw the tags that are now bolded in the selection set I wouldn't have to scroll so much.

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For my purposes that would be cumbersome (if I'm correctly following the suggestion). In Zotero (or plain filesystem directories, or anything with hierarchical structures available), all I have to do to work on Chapter 1 of Project X is click on that Chapter 1. That's it. And I easily stay in that context whilst working on chapter 1. Then it's just 1 click to work on the Intro of that project, etc. The ergonomics are good because a truly hierarchical means of organisation fits a hierarchical project.

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Subnotebooks would be great! I see their functionality as being different than tags. If you're relying on tags to replicate this functionality, then you'll end up with an unnecessarily long list of tags, and I'd rather be able to use tags to overlay another form of organization over my collected data. And speaking of tags, they're not that useful if I can't select more than one at a time, e.g. Family and Vacation and Tora Bora.

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I just started using EN a few days ago and love it - EXCEPT that it Doesn't Have Subfolders. The previous explanations for the need of subfolders couldn't be any clearer. This is an important tool, the continued omission of which hampers and frustrates the usability (not to mention the user) of EN. EN will always be hobbled without subfolders.

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I just started using EN a few days ago and love it - EXCEPT that it Doesn't Have Subfolders. The previous explanations for the need of subfolders couldn't be any clearer. This is an important tool, the continued omission of which hampers and frustrates the usability (not to mention the user) of EN. EN will always be hobbled without subfolders.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Please guys - add subnotebooks!

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Pretty please, don't repeat the same demands on different threads ... this is a forum for Evernote users to discuss ideas and solve problems with each other, not a shouting match. Evernote reads every post, so redundancy just wastes everyone's time.

Thanks

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I must say that sub notebooks in conjunction with tags make sense to me.

I am a photographer and I have an extensive catalogue of images. These are sorted in 2 ways:

1 a heirarchical file structure which is just a list of folders containing different jobs. Each folder fits onto a dvd for ease of backup.

2 a keyword system which is the same as tags. So I can find/tag images easily across my catalogue using catalogue software.

I also use a GTD program called MyLifeOrganised. Its an excellent program and is set up in the same way ie a hierarchical folder system and then "contexts"(tags) which feed into a to-do list.

I'm also a big fan of EN and have been using since v2. Whilst I love the program, I think the addition of a hierarchical structure would make it a lot stronger and more intuitive.

Cheers, Dean

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Re the question of whether EN replies to posts, or not.

If I came out and said EN doesn't, as in the sense of general policy, or seldom, as in the sense of almost never, I mispoke myself.

Over time what I have observed is that the responses from EN are not as frequent, and that there is more of a delay. This could be explained by many things, including pressures from other work-related duties.

What I have observed that truly bothers me is there appears to be less response to those posts asking for things that aren't on the roadmap, or that reflect the anger and tremendous inconveniences to many EN users that resulted in differences between EN2 and EN3. I do not believe even to this day that EN developers realize the extent of issues they caused for us who had invested heavily in using EN.

So what we have seen is decreased responsiveness around that question, and little indication that some other features, such as highlighting, improved paragraph capabilities, etc. are even seriously considered.

I know many posts get answered still - but not the ones that go to the thorniest public relations and customer satisfaction challenges EN has.

It's upsetting for those of us who are heavy duty information processing types to see the features so important to us removed in favor of those who want not so much heavy info capability as the ability to grab something on the run, regardless of whether they are desk-based, phone-based, etc.

I agree with those who say that the cloud capability, which seems to me what much of this is about, is vital and indeed even essential for programs wanting to stay current and attractive in the marketplace.

I hope this clarifies my position on EN responding to people posting on the forum.

So in a phrase - fewer responses generally, and fewer responses and much less emphasis on those still trying to get to recognize needs of heavy duty info users.

Daly

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Pretty please, don't repeat the same demands on different threads ... this is a forum for Evernote users to discuss ideas and solve problems with each other, not a shouting match. Evernote reads every post, so redundancy just wastes everyone's time.

Thanks

Dave, I think it's a reflection of the strong feelings around some issues. And while I know you answer posts, it is nonetheless a reflection of the fact that EN for reasons known only to itself has decided to avoid discussion around certain features, etc.

My thought is that EN has decided not to make any changes re notebook structure, or to do anything much to make EN a more capable, heavy duty player in information processing. I base that on lack of response to posts reflecting those issues.

The allure of the cloud has won out, but the realization is yet to be seen on your end that while heavy duty users are willing to risk the cloud, they are not going to do so quietly if it means less capability than your product has already proven it could provide, and without certain enhancements we all know EN could introduce if they thought we were a sufficiently worthy part of the market for you.

A friendly word of caution - watch out for Microsoft (unless you recent development course is to position yourselves for a buy-out, which is perfectly valid business strategy). Over the last few years it has shown itself able to be sensitive to users of various info program, what with OneNote and, now, Thumbtack. If you're not looking for a buy-out, you increasingly have one heck of a competitor that is more serious than ever about bedding down in your niche.

Also, the seeming wind down of Google Notes has done two things:

It has made people with any tendency to worry about the security of the cloud start worrying. That's not good for EN. Though EN is much better than Google Notes, those who begin to feel abandoned on the cloud might vote with their feet, and opt for down-to-earth solutions.

The second thing it has done is to unleash some fervor among cloud developers to become a replacement for Notes. That means a more competitive market for EN - getting EN2 users who are now disgruntled on side might make better sense than ever.

For those of us who feel left out w EN3, Google Notes is just one more example of being jilted at high altitudes.

Daly

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Ouch. Not sure what happened there. I "know" Daly (as much as you can know someone from reading their online postings) from other mailing lists/groups. I would describe him as helpful, intelligent, level-headed, even classy. This latest seems out of character. Believe me, I'm not one to shy from complaining/whining about the feature set I want. But to post on an external site that development of a product seems to have stopped because "your" features haven't been implemented/answered satisfactorily is out of line.

It's one thing to express disappointment, criticism, etc. Quite another to imply a company's product is vaporware. Not cool.

Kenneth, thank you first of all for the good things you said about me.

Please know I thought carefully about making the reference to an outside forum. It is not one I made without some thought. The fact that I did reflected a couple of things. One, the general sense of disempowerment when dealing with vital, core issues arising with changes in EN2, accompanied by a shift in EN's pattern of responding to messages.

It will be interesting on that point to see how and when EN responds to the individuals concerned about an arbitrary size limit on local notebooks.

The other aspect of my decision to recommend going outside the forum is this: Just as EN3 reflected the reality of the cloud, the massive uptick of people involved in social networking sites, especially such as Twitter, has brought a new level of social organizing and empowerment to individuals to speak out on issues of concern. I am not arguing this should be the first choice, but social networking brings to us cloud hoppers capabilities not so different from some of what organizer Saul Alinsky talked about in the 50s.

www.outlinersoftware.com is an independent site where people gather to discuss all kinds of things related to information management. One of the recurring issues has been when one's favorite developer goes out of business. More recently the phenomenon has arisen of the company that makes significant changes in a product without apparent awareness consistently or increasingly expressed over time of the costs in time, money, aggravation to loyal users.

In reality, this latter phenomenon reflects what EN did. As such, I'd maintain its fair to bring the discussion to an outside forum where people have an interest in this aspect of relating with software developers. Please note, this recommendation on my part was so far from being my first or initial reaction that it almost might seem like it was an after-thought. If it had been my first, or fifth (!), response I think I could be fairly criticized for not having given EN a fair chance before going public.

I hope this helps to clarify.

Cheers,

Daly

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You've all seen discussion forums and Internet groups that descend into disfunctional shouting matches and ad hominem personal attacks. I'm sure you've seen other communities that work relatively well because their main aim is collaboration and problem-solving. We hope to keep this forum in the latter category, and do it without some of the aggressive moderation advocated by (e.g.) Edward Tufte: http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and ... _id=0000fT

This is important not because it protects our feelings, but because it makes this site more useful for all of its visitors. Nothing is a bigger turn-off to a new visitor than a bunch of 12-page flame wars.

I think the balance here is pretty good so far because the average Evernote user tends to be more professional and mature than the average contributor to the Britney Spears Fan Forum. While we can't give specific answers to every question about the future, we aim to solve immediate problems and bottlenecks for people while hearing everyone's opinions on their first post so that they don't need to re-post or bump or "+1".

Thanks again

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You've all seen discussion forums and Internet groups that descend into disfunctional shouting matches and ad hominem personal attacks. I'm sure you've seen other communities that work relatively well because their main aim is collaboration and problem-solving. We hope to keep this forum in the latter category, and do it without some of the aggressive moderation advocated by (e.g.) Edward Tufte: http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and ... _id=0000fT

This is important not because it protects our feelings, but because it makes this site more useful for all of its visitors. Nothing is a bigger turn-off to a new visitor than a bunch of 12-page flame wars.

I think the balance here is pretty good so far because the average Evernote user tends to be more professional and mature than the average contributor to the Britney Spears Fan Forum. While we can't give specific answers to every question about the future, we aim to solve immediate problems and bottlenecks for people while hearing everyone's opinions on their first post so that they don't need to re-post or bump or "+1".

Thanks again

I agree and that's why I politely ask you for your answer since this question has been raised more times than I care to remember - are subnotebooks going to be supported, are they a priority feature, is it being worked on?

That's all we're concerned abouthere (I strongly believe I can speak on behalf of many of the members!).

Thank you!

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that's why I politely ask you for your answer since this question has been raised more times than I care to remember - are subnotebooks going to be supported, are they a priority feature, is it being worked on?

And Dave has already politely answered. He was quoted above, but here's a link to the original: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=7385#p28325. EN are not working on subnotebooks (or any other hierarchical means of organisation), and are not currently planning to do so.

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+1 for subnotebooks also

I find the cross platform functionality very useful, but the lack of ability to nest notebooks or even have a truly hierarchical tag structure is a significant shortcoming--one that keeps me from signing up for a Premier account.

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This thread has reached a fifth page, which makes it a bit unwieldy. I'm going to close this thread, but feel free to open a new one if you think there's information that wasn't covered in this five-page thread.

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Hello everybody

I understand this is a hot subjet, I read many posts about it, how some people think tags are better,or worse or anything.

I don't want to start another pro or con subNotebook threat.

I just want to know if this feature will be implemented in the next futur or not.

Can someone from Evernote dev team can answer this simple question please ?

Thx you

Ltn

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