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Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

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I, too, am looking for the ability to nest stacks. One of the searches turned up a feature request from 2008 asking the same thing. I can't believe it is that difficult to accomplish.

 

Note to Evernote: You have a good product. When users ask for something that is relatively easy, deal with it quickly. It's visible to the users, makes them happy and eliminates years of negative forum posts. Marketing 101.

 

Whether or not it's a difficult feature to implement is something none of us here would really know. What is pretty definite is that Evernote has made decisions about the kind of software they want to use and the kind they want to make. They are not unaware of these requests. It just appears, at present at least, they're not part of the plan. 

 

Best of luck. 

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+1 on this feature request. This would make organization for me in Evernote much easier.

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There are many threads on the subject of a deeper hierarchical structure for notebooks.

One of the reasons I signed up for a premium account is because I "hoped" that would give me a deeper hierarchical structure. Unfortunately I was wrong.

If enough people keep asking for this feature, the EN management might just reconsider accommodating customer demand. After all, the customer is supposed to be king???

 

Please don't tell me that the answer is Tags. Sure, tags are useful but they don't fit the way I work. I like to browse down a hierarchy as part of my personal search and creative process.

 

So, Evernote management, please... a cry from a paying customer... please reconsider and allow us to add notebooks within notebooks within notebooks...

 

Dave Britzius

(Cape Town) 

 

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The answer, today, is pretty much tags and other search/filtering aids (embedded keywords, titles, dates, etc.). You can only go so far with notebooks and stacks in Evernote. You can emulate a hierarchy using tags, though. But using Evernote in the hopes that they'll add a notebook hierarchy any time soon doesn't sound like a great strategy to me.

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There are many threads on the subject of a deeper hierarchical structure for notebooks.

One of the reasons I signed up for a premium account is because I "hoped" that would give me a deeper hierarchical structure. Unfortunately I was wrong.

If enough people keep asking for this feature, the EN management might just reconsider accommodating customer demand. After all, the customer is supposed to be king???

 

Please don't tell me that the answer is Tags. Sure, tags are useful but they don't fit the way I work. I like to browse down a hierarchy as part of my personal search and creative process.

 

So, Evernote management, please... a cry from a paying customer... please reconsider and allow us to add notebooks within notebooks within notebooks...

 

Dave Britzius

(Cape Town) 

The customer is not always king. When two customers each want a feature that is mutually exclusive, who wins? Or a feature would negatively impact something about the product. Or there are higher priorities. Or the devs have simply decided to not incorporate a particular feature, for whatever reason. After all, they owe it to existing customers AND employees to make good business decisions so the company can (hopefully) remain profitable. Simply being a paying customer and expecting something you want changed to be changed is unreasonable.

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There are many threads on the subject of a deeper hierarchical structure for notebooks.

One of the reasons I signed up for a premium account is because I "hoped" that would give me a deeper hierarchical structure. Unfortunately I was wrong.

If enough people keep asking for this feature, the EN management might just reconsider accommodating customer demand. After all, the customer is supposed to be king???

 

Please don't tell me that the answer is Tags. Sure, tags are useful but they don't fit the way I work. I like to browse down a hierarchy as part of my personal search and creative process.

 

So, Evernote management, please... a cry from a paying customer... please reconsider and allow us to add notebooks within notebooks within notebooks...

 

Dave Britzius

(Cape Town) 

 

Dave, I think you make a sound argument for Evernote to strongly consider providing sub-notebooks.

 

It is very clear and obvious to most that when you say "After all, the customer is supposed to be king???" you are NOT just talking about yourself, but the many, many customers who have for years requested sub-notebooks.  Companies who continue to ignore the needs of large blocks of their customers run the risk of going out of business.  Word Perfect and Blackberry are two examples that come to mind.

 

The sleeping giant Microsoft seems to be waking up with respect to Note taking/capturing/organization with its OneNote app.  They have recently begin making it available on more platforms/devices, and improving its capability.  And, like Evernote, they have started making some versions FREE.  Just look at what Microsoft did to Netscape Navigator.  

 

I was also once a huge WordPerfect fan, until they failed to adopt the GUI of Mac, then Windows.  So while today I prefer Evernote to OneNote, that might change in the future.    It just depends.

 

Furthermore, Evernote has CHANGED ITS MIND on several major features.  The best example is the Business version of Evernote.  After years of saying they wanted nothing to do with creating/supporting a "business" version, they have done just that.

 

The way I see it, understanding the need and value of organizing and viewing information in a hierarchical manner is something that is very obvious to some people, and, apparently, does not register with others.  That's fine.  No one who asks for sub-notebooks is trying to force anyone to use that method of organization.  But there are others who don't seem to understand its value that continue relentlessly to argue against Evernote providing sub-notebooks.  Frankly, I just ignore this segment and continue on.

 

So, I continue to urge those who would like to have sub-notebooks in Evernote to continue asking for that feature.  There is no harm in asking, and maybe someday Evernote will provide it.

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It is very clear and obvious to most that when you say "After all, the customer is supposed to be king???" you are NOT just talking about yourself, but the many, many customers who have for years requested sub-notebooks.  Companies who continue to ignore the needs of large blocks of their customers run the risk of going out of business.  Word Perfect and Blackberry are two examples that come to mind.

I've also recommended more than once on these forums that Evernote remove their notebook limit and provide notebook hierarchies, if for no other reason, because it will surely make the app more appealing to users who prefer hierarchies and the notebook / folder metaphor. I'm not against the idea. And, as you said, there is no harm in asking, and I encourage users to continue asking for it.

However,I don't think the lesson to be drawn from those two companies is that they failed because they ignored the feature requests of their users. In both cases, the circumstances of their demise (they are both, technically speaking, still eking out an existence on some devices) are quite complex and their fates cannot be reduced simply (or at all?) to obstinate designers.

I think academics, lawyers, and others who enjoyed WordPerfect would argue that it responded better to their requests than Microsoft ever did. If you asked developers of the WordPerfect software, they might blame Microsoft's business practices for its failure. Although Novell eventually lost its suit against Microsoft, I don't think the result of the legal case has exonerated Microsoft -- I imagine there is more to be written about this by historians. Microsoft, at least in my experience, has hardly been a model company when it comes to adopting the suggestions made by users. I'm sure there are plenty of users who still loathe the ribbon interface, for example, but Microsoft hasn't backed down on it. When was the last time you had a conversation with a developer there? The last time I tried to contact the company about bugs they wanted to charge me money for the privilege of getting in touch with a human being.

All of this nitpicking is just to say that the refusal of a company like Evernote to take a certain direction with its design doesn't necessarily mean that they are "ignoring" the needs of customers or that they will then be subject to inevitable punishment from mysterious market forces. It might simply be (as it seems to be in this case) that they are listening, responding to users, but disagreeing. It happens all of the time in all areas of life. They might have genuinely significant personal, technical, aesthetic, and other reasons for doing what they do. In fact, I expect they do! I doubt it is mere whimsy or stubbornness. Considering the long history of complaints about this aspect of the app, I am guessing it has come up once or twice as a topic of discussion in meetings :)

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I've also recommended more than once on these forums that Evernote remove their notebook limit and provide notebook hierarchies, if for no other reason, because it will surely make the app more appealing to users who prefer hierarchies and the notebook / folder metaphor. I'm not against the idea. And, as you said, there is no harm in asking, and I encourage users to continue asking for it.

 

 

Well, we can certainly agree on that!   ;)

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I'm sure there are plenty of users who still loathe the ribbon interface, for example, but Microsoft hasn't backed down on it. When was the last time you had a conversation with a developer there? The last time I tried to contact the company about bugs they wanted to charge me money for the privilege of getting in touch with a human being.

I'm definitely one of those who isn't happy about the ribbon interface. Though to be fair, Microsoft does have excellent free tutorials available for all of it's core programs. And the users forum, while not as nicely laid out as this one, does have have a number of very knowledgeable and helpful volunteers.

I'm curious, Grumpy, what was the situation where they wanted to charge you to speak to a live company rep, if you don't mind sharing?

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I'm sure there are plenty of users who still loathe the ribbon interface, for example, but Microsoft hasn't backed down on it. When was the last time you had a conversation with a developer there? The last time I tried to contact the company about bugs they wanted to charge me money for the privilege of getting in touch with a human being.

I'm definitely one of those who isn't happy about the ribbon interface. Though to be fair, Microsoft does have excellent free tutorials available for all of it's core programs. And the users forum, while not as nicely laid out as this one, does have have a number of very knowledgeable and helpful volunteers.

I'm curious, Grumpy, what was the situation where they wanted to charge you to speak to a live company rep, if you don't mind sharing?

I don't know if it had anything to do with my problem or not, but (1) problems with memory issues and crashing on the Mac, (2) problems with vertical Japanese text support on the Mac, and (3) license inactivated because it was supposedly used on too many computers. If I remember correctly, they wanted 45 dollars.

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Hi everyone, I think that is a bit annoying write task all the time for every note, I use to organice the information with folders, so It could be a good solution create a hierarchy with notebooks.

 

Thank you   

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Hmm, that's puzzling. Sounds like an encounter I had last year with a large, popular anti-virus company. After I had paid for the service and two expensive repairs their software didn't catch. They wanted to charge me for the priviledge of talking to them as well...changed companies.

I'm sure there are plenty of users who still loathe the ribbon interface, for example, but Microsoft hasn't backed down on it. When was the last time you had a conversation with a developer there? The last time I tried to contact the company about bugs they wanted to charge me money for the privilege of getting in touch with a human being.

I'm definitely one of those who isn't happy about the ribbon interface. Though to be fair, Microsoft does have excellent free tutorials available for all of it's core programs. And the users forum, while not as nicely laid out as this one, does have have a number of very knowledgeable and helpful volunteers.

I'm curious, Grumpy, what was the situation where they wanted to charge you to speak to a live company rep, if you don't mind sharing?

I don't know if it had anything to do with my problem or not, but (1) problems with memory issues and crashing on the Mac, (2) problems with vertical Japanese text support on the Mac, and (3) license inactivated because it was supposedly used on too many computers. If I remember correctly, they wanted 45 dollars.

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I have just started using EN and was exploring how to create a hierarchy of stacks.  To my disappointment it cannot be done.  What I find more distressing about this product is that EN has apparently opted to not address the issue other than to say that it might, maybe, could be, possibly, something to consider in the future...or not.

 

Then there are the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above.  One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't have all that time to invest.  The cross platform access is great.  But it doesn't override my organizational wants/needs.  I need to be up and running quickly.  If I had nested stacks available, I would have been on the road to purchasing, and implementing, a business or premium account.  As it stands now, I am moving on to a different solution or going to keep doing what I am doing.  I wonder how much business has been lost by people who just gave up and went on to other solutions and didn't spend the time to express their displeasure.

 

Go ahead, keep preaching that we need to change our ways of thinking about organizational structure.  I am moving on.  Change your tune and offer nested stacks and maybe I'll be back.

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I have just started using EN and was exploring how to create a hierarchy of stacks.  To my disappointment it cannot be done.  What I find more distressing about this product is that EN has apparently opted to not address the issue other than to say that it might, maybe, could be, possibly, something to consider in the future...or not.

 

Then there are the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above.  One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't have all that time to invest.  The cross platform access is great.  But it doesn't override my organizational wants/needs.  I need to be up and running quickly.  If I had nested stacks available, I would have been on the road to purchasing, and implementing, a business or premium account.  As it stands now, I am moving on to a different solution or going to keep doing what I am doing.  I wonder how much business has been lost by people who just gave up and went on to other solutions and didn't spend the time to express their displeasure.

 

Go ahead, keep preaching that we need to change our ways of thinking about organizational structure.  I am moving on.  Change your tune and offer nested stacks and maybe I'll be back.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

For whatever reason, Evernote has chosen to not allow for an elaborate hierarchy. If the flat structure of Evernote works for you, or you can make it work for your needs, great. There are 100 million users who seem to be able to make it work.

 

If you absolutely need hierarchy and are unable to adapt to the flat structure of Evernote (I'm sure there's about 100 million or more people in this camp too), then it seems perfectly rational to move along to something else.

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I have just started using EN and was exploring how to create a hierarchy of stacks.  To my disappointment it cannot be done.  What I find more distressing about this product is that EN has apparently opted to not address the issue other than to say that it might, maybe, could be, possibly, something to consider in the future...or not.

 

Then there are the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above.  One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't have all that time to invest.  The cross platform access is great.  But it doesn't override my organizational wants/needs.  I need to be up and running quickly.  If I had nested stacks available, I would have been on the road to purchasing, and implementing, a business or premium account.  As it stands now, I am moving on to a different solution or going to keep doing what I am doing.  I wonder how much business has been lost by people who just gave up and went on to other solutions and didn't spend the time to express their displeasure.

 

Go ahead, keep preaching that we need to change our ways of thinking about organizational structure.  I am moving on.  Change your tune and offer nested stacks and maybe I'll be back.

 

You make generalizations like "the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above"  I'm pretty sure no one has berated anyone.  However, we do say if that's a deal breaker for you, then sure, you need to find another app.  I don't know why anyone would take offense to that, since it's honest.

 

I also don't get why "One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more." is offensive to you.  Pretty much every new app takes some learning in order to use it to it's fullest extent. 

 

And finally, as I said above, if sub notebooks are a deal breaker for you, then yes, you need to find another app that better suits your needs.  Different strokes for different folks & that's why there's chocolate & vanilla. 

 

Good luck!

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I have just started using EN and was exploring how to create a hierarchy of stacks.  To my disappointment it cannot be done.  What I find more distressing about this product is that EN has apparently opted to not address the issue other than to say that it might, maybe, could be, possibly, something to consider in the future...or not.

You want to use Evernote, you need to use it as it's constituted today. Making feature requests is of course fine, indeed, they're welcome, but there's no promise that all features requested will be implemented.

 

Then there are the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above.  One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more.

I would say that "berating" doesn't describe what's being said. You didn't post a link to the quote that you reference, but surely it's good practice to learn how a system works before implementing it in a critical workflow. I.e., you need to study it (which can include asking questions of knowledgeable users, such as are found here in the forums).

 

I'm sorry, but I don't have all that time to invest.  The cross platform access is great.  But it doesn't override my organizational wants/needs.  I need to be up and running quickly.  If I had nested stacks available, I would have been on the road to purchasing, and implementing, a business or premium account.  As it stands now, I am moving on to a different solution or going to keep doing what I am doing.  I wonder how much business has been lost by people who just gave up and went on to other solutions and didn't spend the time to express their displeasure.

Something to wonder about for those who prefer to spend their time to wondering about such things. As it stands, Evernote doesn't appear (to you anyways) to meet your needs at this time, something that only you can determine. That being the case, looking at other solutions is highly rational.

 

Go ahead, keep preaching that we need to change our ways of thinking about organizational structure.  I am moving on.  Change your tune and offer nested stacks and maybe I'll be back.

Remember that the evangelists are not Evernote employees. We need to be practical about Evernote usage, just like other users. Evernote is what it is; if you try to use it as if it were something else, you'll probably run into difficulties. We're happy to try to advise people with actual issues in using Evernote or how to approach certain scenarios, but we have no sway over Evernote's design. As for Evernote themselves, their point of view has been represented pretty well in the current lengthy thread (I think it's been merged with others over time); look for posts by Evernote CEO 'engberg'. From 2008 onwards, as far as we know, they've stuck with flat notebooks and tags over nested stacks / notebooks as their guiding organizational scheme.

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I've been using EN superficially for several years, but I just bought EN Essentials and I'm working to up my game. This is my first post to the forum. Sorry if this is long, but it's an interesting issue.

 

I found this topic because, like many others, I did a search for 'nested stacks', and I learned almost immediately that there are no nested stacks, and no nested folders. As someone else mentioned, the thread then migrated to the philosophy of why or how, which I also find to be quite interesting. I think the real issue is one of information management and organizational philosophy, by no means a trivial topic. 

 

If you notice in iOS 7, for example, there are only two hierarchical levels, the desktop, and one level of folders. They recently expanded so a folder can hold more apps, and you can scroll through several 'pages' of icons within the folder, but it is still only one level of folders. And I'm sure everyone recognizes the extent to which iOS 7 and OS X are converging. I read some time ago that Steve Jobs had a vision to largely do away with folders on every platform. This seemed bass-ackwrds to me at the time, for several reasons. First, hierarchical folders have real world equivalents. A piece of paper may be stapled to others. The document goes into a manila folder --> hanging folder --> drawer sections --> drawer --> filing cabinet --> file room --> building. Each group defines a hierarchy; if a topic requires more than one drawer the contents are continued into another drawer, but this can simply be considered an extension of the first drawer -- it remains at the same organizational level. The second reason for resisting change is the fact that we've all been doing this on our computers for 20 or 30 years. Our brains work this way.

 

Let's look at another strategy that might be considered diametrically opposed. Every document receives a sequential number as it is entered into the system, AND it is filed in sequential order. NO HIERARCHY WHATSOEVER! A large (and growing) index of 'tags' or

'categories' is created, and prior to being filed, each documented is labeled with any number of relevant tags. At the same time, the 'tag index' receives a notation that a new entry has just been filed, say '#20140708_00004' -- physically stored by this acquisition number. Storage location provides NO indication of content. 

 

Having done this, the 'tag index' resides in a computerized data base, and can be extensively searched using any combination of Boolean operators (for expansion) and filters (for contraction). A search result returns a list of documents that fit the search criteria, and they are easily (?!) retrieved via the sequential numbering system.

 

One more restriction applies to both strategies - for many reasons (error checking, space, etc.), we want to maintain ONE, and ONLY ONE copy of any given document.

 

Here's where it becomes interesting! Assuming a meticulous hierarchical system, -- with the right knowledge and training (and 'road-maps'?), it should be possible to find any individual document. Tags are not required. The great disadvantage, however, is that required files may be stored all over the place, depending on the original organizational scheme. I'll need one set of documents if I'm planning my garden (seed info, lot dimensions, sun direction, fertilizer), and another set (county records, purchase agreement, deed, lot dimensions) if I am dealing with an easement to my property. Depending on my needs, these documents may be located in different files, or different file cabinets, or different buildings!

 

Granted, it takes time and some thinking to enter tags to each document, but this does get easier and easier as your personal collection of tags begins to mature. Once labeled, however, the ability to retrieve the necessary information becomes much, much more powerful. 

 

IF (and this is a big IF) we had really good search engines, (e.g. Spotlight is getting better, but ... ), AND our documents were OCR'd and indexed, THEN we should be able to find our documents wherever they are located. Spotlight is getting better, but I have found Windows search engines to be particularly useless. Notice, however, that this really constitutes a super-set of tags!

 

I suspect these fundamental differences lie behind the evolution of computer systems. Yes, it would be nice if EN would keep us better informed, but they're probably feeling their way just like everyone else, while trying to survive and grow in a competitive market. I'm going to put some real effort into tags over the next year or so, with the expectation (???!??) that my digital files will be becoming much more manageable. I'm (cautiously) optimistic, but all such strategies are prone to collapse under their own weight. 

 

Wish me luck. I'll report back periodically and let you know how it's going.

 

iggy

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iggy,

 

For another approach to having a meticulous hierarchical system (I liked your phrase there) for your Evernote information, you might want to check out our TuskTools Treeliner solution.

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But you haven't yet released Treeliner for sale have you, Phils? I thought you told SahilC that the other day. Or is my memory playing tricks on me...again?!

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iggy,

 

For another approach to having a meticulous hierarchical system (I liked your phrase there) for your Evernote information, you might want to check out our TuskTools Treeliner solution.

 

Phils, TuskTools Treeliner is a GREAT tool.  I strongly encourage everyone to view the excellent YouTube video if you have any interest in outliners or hierarchy.  For those of you who don't think hierarchical systems add any value, I challenge you to watch this video.  It might just open your eyes to a great new way of organizing.

 

I should mention that it integrates tightly with Evernote.

 

Phils, I'd love to see a Mac version.  Any chance of one being available any time soon?

 

Finally, ATTN Evernote Designers.  You should view this video to see an excellent, powerful, yet simple way to construct complex boolean searches.  

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So it is out for purchase now?

iggy,

For another approach to having a meticulous hierarchical system (I liked your phrase there) for your Evernote information, you might want to check out our TuskTools Treeliner solution.

Phils, TuskTools Treeliner is a GREAT tool. I strongly encourage everyone to view the excellent YouTube video if you have any interest in outliners or hierarchy. For those of you who don't think hierarchical systems add any value, I challenge you to watch this video. It might just open your eyes to a great new way of organizing.

I should mention that it integrates tightly with Evernote.

Phils, I'd love to see a Mac version. Any chance of one being available any time soon?

Finally, ATTN Evernote Designers. You should view this video to see an excellent, powerful, yet simple way to construct complex boolean searches.

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JMichael,

Thanks so much for the nice words!  I would love to do a Mac version, the biggest challenge is that I've yet to find a Tree tool on the Mac platform that provides the sophisticated UI control that's required.  I haven't given up, though; would like to do a Mac version if possible.  However, I really need to do iOS and Android versions, next, though, after Windows.

 

Wordsgood,

No, not out yet for sale, still in beta.  I'm working on a few bug fixes now, then plan to distribute it to a wider beta audience.  As JMichael said, it's totally integrated with Evernote (each outline item IS an Evernote note) so it's a complex task to get it all right!

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I've just done a good ol' Google search to try to learn how nest my Evernote stacks.  I've found blogs calling for EN to add this feature, blogs helping folks cope with the lack of this feature, and blogs trying to help people adapt to tagging as a clunky replacement for hierarchical organisation, and I've found this thread, which began in 2008, of which I've read the first three pages and this last page.

 

Here's my question: after six long years of people consistently asking for this feature, is there any place where EN has explained their philosophy of leaving only one level for notebook stacks?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning (and could probably learn from the read).

 

Even gMail has allowed users to create the comforting appearance of subfolders by providing for nested labels.

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I've just done a good ol' Google search to try to learn how nest my Evernote stacks.  I've found blogs calling for EN to add this feature, blogs helping folks cope with the lack of this feature, and blogs trying to help people adapt to tagging as a clunky replacement for hierarchical organisation, and I've found this thread, which began in 2008, of which I've read the first three pages and this last page.

 

Here's my question: after six long years of people consistently asking for this feature, is there any place where EN has explained their philosophy of leaving only one level for notebook stacks?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning (and could probably learn from the read).

You can go back and read the posts by 'engberg' in this topic -- he is the CTO of Evernote. One key quote: "What is the task you want to accomplish with hierarchical notebooks that you can't do with hierarchical tags?"

 

Even gMail has allowed users to create the comforting appearance of subfolders by providing for nested labels.

The key word there is "appearance". They don't present an actual folder hierarchy, lat time I checked (where I understand a folder hierarchy to mean that an email/note resides in exactly one folder). Labels are more or less synonymous with "tag". And tags *do* nest.

Tags are not clunky at all (or shouldn't be) for people who know how to use adjectives.

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Jeff,

Thanks for the tip on searching out posts by engberg. As far as the actual location of Gmail messages as opposed to their appearance, I'm already quite aware.

My Evernote app presents my growing list of notebooks as a navigation pane. One that could certainly benefit from logical classification and nesting. Until the tags can be used as a logical navigation, and not just as a search tool while we live with this ugly ten-mile long navigation panel, it's clunky.

And yes, I'm quite aware of how to use adjectives. Thanks for presenting your opinion.

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Yes tags can be used as placeholder.

YYou can define some tags for hierarchical navigation. I advice you give them a special character or number as a prefix so they get stick at the top of the list.

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My Evernote app presents my growing list of notebooks as a navigation pane. One that could certainly benefit from logical classification and nesting. Until the tags can be used as a logical navigation, and not just as a search tool while we live with this ugly ten-mile long navigation panel, it's clunky.

You can already nest to one level deep using stacks. Stacks also group notebooks together for purposes of filtering your note list, which can be helpful.

Tags can certainly be used as a navigation tool, as there are plenty of folks around in the forums who do so. In fact, they can serve as better navigational aids, as you can assign notes to more than one hierarchy which can facilitate context dependent navigation. Not sure what your use case is that precludes using tags for navigation, but we can give it a try if you care to elaborate.

My rule of thumb with regards to notebooks is to only create them when necessary. In my case, that means:

* If I want to share a set of notes with another user (e.g., my work account)

* If I want a set of notes to always be available on a mobile device (these are "offline" notebooks)

* If I want a set of notes that I want to remain local to a machine, never synced to the Evernote servers (a rare circumstance for me)

This leaves me with a relatively small set of notebooks (less than 20 in each of my two accounts), which I further organize using several stacks.

I do understand that other use cases may require many notebooks. Evernote may not be the right application for those.

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You can already nest to one level deep using stacks. Stacks also group notebooks together for purposes of filtering your note list, which can be helpful.

 

I'm aware of this.  I would intuitively group meetings into substacks, but since I can't do that, I'm having to find another way.

 

 

Tags can certainly be used as a navigation tool, as there are plenty of folks around in the forums who do so. In fact, they can serve as better navigational aids, as you can assign notes to more than one hierarchy which can facilitate context dependent navigation. Not sure what your use case is that precludes using tags for navigation, but we can give it a try if you care to elaborate.

 

I was completely unaware that tags can be used for navigation. Now that you point me that way, I've even seen how Evernote would display those tags by "tree", which sounds like exactly what I would prefer to use--but I haven't been able to find how to edit or create this "tree" on the Android app.

 

Thanks for the useful tip.

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You can already nest to one level deep using stacks. Stacks also group notebooks together for purposes of filtering your note list, which can be helpful.

 

I'm aware of this.  I would intuitively group meetings into substacks, but since I can't do that, I'm having to find another way.

Right. That's why I'm pointing you towards tags, which I understand may or may not suffice for your needs, but you should at least know about them. 

I was completely unaware that tags can be used for navigation. Now that you point me that way, I've even seen how Evernote would display those tags by "tree", which sounds like exactly what I would prefer to use--but I haven't been able to find how to edit or create this "tree" on the Android app.

Yeah, support on the Android app for this stuff is not there, unfortunately. A problem with the mobile apps is that they tend to lag the desktop apps. You can do it in one of the desktop applications (Windows., Mac), or also in the web app, but dragging a tag onto another tag. Move a tag to the top by dragging to the Tags list header.

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I had logged into the web app to try it there and discovered it just now.  Busy tagging everything.

 

If it can provide the pseudo-nested-filing experience similar to gmail, then I'll be happy. Will know just now.

 

Thanks!

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Got it done, and while functional, the interface on the tablet is clunky. Nice on the webapp, though.

 

Thanks again for the tip. :/

Glad to hear it -- thanks for sticking with us while we sorted out our conceptual stuff. :)

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A tagging system makes sense if you think of the whole system as a collection of completely independent notes. You create a note, you add the tags, you search for tags to find what you want.

 

But it doesn't make as much sense if you consider the notes to be related to each other. Suppose you're writing a book, and you've got one note per chapter, and the chapters themselves are further divided into a note per section. Now you want a note that collects up all the subnotes for the chapter, and a note that collects up all the chapters into a book, and the whole thing tied together with an integrated table of contents.

 

To mimic this with tags you can create a tag called "My Book" with subtags "Chapter 1", "Chapter 2", etc, and you just use the tags as your navigator. It's not exactly the same as a neatly *integrated* table of contents within the book itself, but it sorta works.

 

But now what happens if you want the book itself to have a tag? You can tag a note, but you can't tag a tag.

 

Tags are also problematic in that they are always alphabetical, so if you want any kind of custom ordering, I guess you'd have to number them. I just don't think tags alone are good for organizing related material that is stored in separate notes.

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Nested tags in the UI can help "visually" but structured tags make the hierarchy.

 

- myBook

-- myBook:ch1

-- myBook:ch2

...

if you want all note about the book -> tag:myBook*

And you can use the "parent tag", myBook, for the book itself.

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I meant suppose I want to tag myBook with real tags such as "history", "19th century", and "us presidents". Since the myBook tag exists as a tag to shoehorn the tagging system into a navigation system, and since tags themselves can't have tags, then i don't see a way to do it.

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I meant suppose I want to tag myBook with real tags such as "history", "19th century", and "us presidents". Since the myBook tag exists as a tag to shoehorn the tagging system into a navigation system, and since tags themselves can't have tags, then i don't see a way to do it.

 

It can take a while to get used to a flat filing system,  but it's no less flexible than any other - just different.  You could use a randomly generated password as a title/tag (©BnF) - my LastPass just gave me "pP3lVOa1" - so your hierarchy runs -

 

<pP3lVOa1> <19c> <presidents>

   <pP3lVOa1 - chapter 01>

   <pP3lVOa1 - chapter 02>

   etc..

 

And by using the TOC feature (in some - all?? - clients) you can create an index of chapters / sections with direct links to those notes.

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Ok, I didn't understand what you meant Kevin.

 

There must be several ways to do that, it depends of what you want to do with notes.

You can have one index note per book. You can use it as a summary and TOC for other notes relative to the book...and you can give this index notes thematic tags.

 

Tags you can also organize with nested tags & hierarchy, or you can just use  keywords at the beginning of the notes... the hardest thing IMO with EN is often to make a choice.

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A tagging system makes sense if you think of the whole system as a collection of completely independent notes. You create a note, you add the tags, you search for tags to find what you want.

 

But it doesn't make as much sense if you consider the notes to be related to each other. 

??? Tags can be obviously used to show a relationship between notes. In fact, that's really a defining characteristic of tags.

 

Now they may not easily be able to express all of the relationships between notes that some users want to express, but that's a different matter. In your case, you could have a tag for the book, and a number of generic tags for Chapter1, Chapter2, Section1, Section2, etc. Apply as needed. This would give you ordering, but you can certain search on "tag:MyBook tag:Chapter3 tag:Section*", say, to pull out all of the sections in chapter 3 of your book. Somewhat equivalently, you could just make your book into a notebook, with the generic tags as before.

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jefito, your solution sounds like object-oriented CSS. You have to repeat the entire ancestral tag lineage on every single note. Could get tedious.

 

Also, search results are returned in alphabetical tag order, are they not? So if you want any kind of ordering of the child content relative to the parent, you have to number the tags.

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jefito, your solution sounds like object-oriented CSS. You have to repeat the entire ancestral tag lineage on every single note. Could get tedious.

 

Also, search results are returned in alphabetical tag order, are they not? So if you want any kind of ordering of the child content relative to the parent, you have to number the tags.

That's not my solution; that's just a workaround used by some users. I don't use it myself, but it's a possibility, and it does have some search advantages with judicious use of the wildcard ('*').

 

Search results are ordered in whatever way your note list is ordered (I use Created date, reversed almost all the time). But no, you wouldn't get any ordering based on tag name, unless you were in list view, sorting by tags, which is supported in some Evernote clients (Windows, for one).

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@kevind3207,

 

FWIW, presented with what I think you are trying to accomplish and EN as the tool:

  1. I would create a tag for the name of the book
  2. Assuming a chapter per note I would title each note "Chapter xx - Whatever the title of the chapter is to be"
  3. Tag each chapter note with the book title tag
  4. Create a TOC note from a search and bulk select on the title tag, as needed

One tag, note titles, and the TOC function.  

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Bump for a key feature missing in Evernote ..

 

  • Development
    • Visual Studio
      • Visual Basic
      • C#
    • Work-Related
      • Projects
      • HR Docs
      • Meetings
    • Android Studio
      • Guides
      • Projects
      • Templates

...etc

 

  Missing this key feature strays me from Evernote to use other programs (that all seem to contain subfolder heirarchy's except Evernote)

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Bump for a key feature missing in Evernote ..

 

  • Development
    • Visual Studio
      • Visual Basic
      • C#
    • Work-Related
      • Projects
      • HR Docs
      • Meetings
    • Android Studio
      • Guides
      • Projects
      • Templates

...etc

 

  Missing this key feature strays me from Evernote to use other programs (that all seem to contain subfolder heirarchy's except Evernote)

 

You did notice that the (Evernote's choice) Best Answer in this thread is from 2008?  And since it mentions nested tags but not notebooks,  rather suggests that they aren't interested?  Lots of discussion in the forums if you search...

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We take every request in the forums as a feature request, yes.

Could you provide more information about how you see the difference? What is the task you want to accomplish with hierarchical notebooks that you can't do with hierarchical tags?

 

Although tags are allowing me to mimic certein heirarchial structures in some regard...

I would like to see visible 'clickable tags' in the notebook pain....

I would like to 'earmark-colourcode' say 4 (or more) tags in a certain notebook... that when clicked on it 'that context' will take me directly to that 'sub-folder'.

This would work on the listing view in notebook pain... when clicking to select a notebook... I can see the earmarked tags visible... And I can 1 click and get directly to them..

Just a thought. Hard to explain exactly what I mean...

But that would make my personal experience better, and i think allow any user to create a hierarchial visible structure without impacting Evernote's 'style' or feel...

 

The reason for this is that although I use heirarchial 'sub-folders' with tags in some notebooks... I dont do it in all.. Also I might use some form of heirarchial-tag system in a specific notebook... But I also use tags that dont support heirarchial sorting of sorts... So when I need to sort and find a tag it is mostly by memory. Visually All the relevant tags to that notebook are mixed with the rest of the tags, which kills the heirarchy a bit...

 

If I could 'ear-mark' certain tags specific to a notebook I would be able to easily get to the 'sub-folder' if I so chose visually and not dependent on memory. The ability to even have those tags come out on top in that specific notebook or be colour coded (red for eg.) would make it more powerfull.

 

I realise this may be a more 'advanced feature... That needs to be in beded in the software...

 

But when users maintain that they want sub-folders... And they come to these forums or elsewhere..

We will be able to say YES! you can mimmick subfolders exactly the way you want them visually... If you set it up in a certain way, using already available tools on evernote. With an extra revelance/organisation mechanism.

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Bump for a key feature missing in Evernote ..

 

  • Development

    • Visual Studio

    • Visual Basic
    • C#
  • Work-Related

    • Projects
    • HR Docs
    • Meetings
  • Android Studio

    • Guides
    • Projects
    • Templates

...etc

 

  Missing this key feature strays me from Evernote to use other programs (that all seem to contain subfolder heirarchy's except Evernote)

Same here. I use CarbonFin. It organizes limitless nested sub-notes or sub-folders and visually shows their relationship and hierarchy.. I'd like to switch to Evernote because CarbonFin does not allow graphics. But since I have accumulated hundreds of notes (like IT project outlines, clients requests/ resolutions) over the years, if I were to lose their relationship and hierarchy, I'd be lost in them.

How can I be notified if Evernote develops an update that offers Nested Sub-Notes with Visual Hierarchy display?

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Well I'm sure the technology press would report it, it would be a big deal because it seems to be contrary to Evernote's design ethos.

 

I'm pretty sure it's never going to happen.

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Wow!  After nearly 7 years, and 715 posts, this thread is still active with many, many users asking for hierarchical Notebooks (sub-Notebooks).  There remain a few users who consistently argue against Evernote providing this feature.

 

I will concede that after all this time, it seems unlikely that Evernote will ever provide hierarchical Notebooks.

But that does not alter the fact that it is a very valid request made by many, many users.

 

IMO, it boils down to each person's mindset.  Some see a natural organization that is hierarchical, as in parent-child.

We, the human race, have been organizing our information like this for centuries, if not thousands of years.

Others, don't seem to grasp the value of hierarchical organization.  And that's fine -- no one is trying to force you to use that approach.

 

Both hierarchical Notebooks and Tags have their place, and are very useful.  

We should be allowed to choose the method we prefer.

 

The below quote from 2008 seems to sum it up very well:

 

 

I am a little frustrated. There are a few people who come on here and they simply say that because we want subnotebooks, we aren't using tags correctly. Clearly, as the argument seems to go, we don't know what we really want, and the problem is that we just don't know how to use the software correctly. If we did,then we'd be happy with tags and there'd be no problem.

You, people who like tags and don't want subnotebooks, don't need to understand. If/when we get subnotebooks as a feature, you are welcome to not use them. However, please stop telling us that we don't need this feature. Obviously, we see a need for it.

I like tags. I use tags. But tags will not replace my need for notebooks. Unlike Missdipsy,my notes do not transfer from one class to another. Even if I read the same case for two classes, specific rule that I need to get out of it is different. There is exactly 0 overlap. I do not anticipate that changing.

Now, could I,if I tried hard enough, make tags work for me in the way that I want it? Yeah, I probably could. But, here's the thing. At the end of the semester, I need to do something with my notes. I don't need my torts notes anymore, but can't get rid of them because I will need them for the bar. So, I need a way to keep them out of the way. With tags, they are still floating around. I don't want to clutter up my life, and I don't want to clutter up my software.

Here's the bottom line: If tags work for you, mazel tov. Stop telling those of us who want the subnotebooks that we're wrong. Obviously, tags do not serve the purpose that we want. Tags will not replace notebook categorization for me. What's more, by telling me how wrong I am, you make me want to try and see your side even less. I have even less interest now in trying to make tags work for me. You don't need to understand our reasoning. If you don't want subnotebooks, fine. This is not the thread for you; please move on.

 

 

 

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Wow!  After nearly 7 years, and 715 posts, this thread is still active with many, many users asking for hierarchical Notebooks (sub-Notebooks).  There remain a few users who consistently argue against Evernote providing this feature.

Really? Who? Do try to be specific when making vague claims like this.

Anyways, yawn. Nothing new to see here. Most of us who are still here accept that hierarchical schemes have some use in this world, and that requesting them is valid, and have said as much. Hardly anyone is actually arguing against Evernote having them. About as far as folks go is to try to see whether those who request them can use tags instead, because that's what's available in the here and now.

 

Short form: if you need hierarchies as your organizational principle, and tags don't do it for you, then you'll need to choose another product at this time. Evernote has the right to choose the design of their product. Users have the right to choose to not use Evernote. After 7 years and 716 posts, that's still valid.

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Wow!  After nearly 7 years, and 715 posts, this thread is still active with many, many users asking for hierarchical Notebooks (sub-Notebooks).  There remain a few users who consistently argue against Evernote providing this feature.

Really? Who? Do try to be specific when making vague claims like this.

Anyways, yawn. Nothing new to see here. 

 

 

 

Don't know what you mean by "yawn".  Do try to be specific when making vague claims like this.

 

If this is boring to you, then why bother posting a reply that adds no value?

 

If you don't get the significance of many users continuing to request this feature after 7 years, then I don't think anyone can explain it to you.

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It's really not worth having an argument about.

 

This feature doesn't exist, to implement it would obviously require a considerable effort and Evernote have made it pretty clear a number of times that they don't intend to do so as they believe (for better or worse, I'm making no judgement) that a tagging solution will work better in this application.

 

This is the current situation and is likely to be the situation for the foreseeable future. 

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I think the major significance is that with 100M+ users

 

1) Lots of new users think "what happened to folders?" and post here without checking the history,  and 

2) "Significance" would be more than .01% of users leaping up and down and requesting folders - and that'd be 1,000 posts here,  not just the dozen or so who've griped about it and gone away...

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Wow!  After nearly 7 years, and 715 posts, this thread is still active with many, many users asking for hierarchical Notebooks (sub-Notebooks).  There remain a few users who consistently argue against Evernote providing this feature.

Really? Who? Do try to be specific when making vague claims like this.

Anyways, yawn. Nothing new to see here.

 

 

Don't know what you mean by "yawn".  Do try to be specific when making vague claims like this.

 

If this is boring to you, then why bother posting a reply that adds no value?

 

If you don't get the significance of many users continuing to request this feature after 7 years, then I don't think anyone can explain it to you.

And after nearly 7 years, there are those who regularly misquote what other users have said in order to fit their own agenda. Sad, but true. As requested, please cite where anyone (ANYONE) has argued against EN adding this feature. Otherwise, you look like a fool.

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It's hard to say what Evernote will or will not do.

 

Here are some features, that many said would never happen, but were added after many users kept on requesting them:

  1. Stacks (in response to the early requests for hierarchical notebooks)
  2. Note links
  3. Editing of images within Evernote

For anyone who doesn't think it will ever happen and who don't see the need, feel free to just ignore this thread.

For those who do see the need, feel free to keep on requesting it.

 

But any post has the effect of bumping this thread to the top of the list, making it more visible.  :)

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It's hard to say what Evernote will or will not do.

 

Here are some features, that many said would never happen, but were added after many users kept on requesting them:

  • Stacks (in response to the early requests for hierarchical notebooks)
  • Note links
  • Editing of images within Evernote
For anyone who doesn't think it will ever happen and who don't see the need, feel free to just ignore this thread.

For those who do see the need, feel free to keep on requesting it.

 

But any post has the effect of bumping this thread to the top of the list, making it more visible.  :)

And after nearly 7 years, there are those who regularly ignore requests to back up what they say.

 

 

Wow!  After nearly 7 years, and 715 posts, this thread is still active with many, many users asking for hierarchical Notebooks (sub-Notebooks).  There remain a few users who consistently argue against Evernote providing this feature.

Really? Who? Do try to be specific when making vague claims like this.

Anyways, yawn. Nothing new to see here.

 

 

Don't know what you mean by "yawn".  Do try to be specific when making vague claims like this.

 

If this is boring to you, then why bother posting a reply that adds no value?

 

If you don't get the significance of many users continuing to request this feature after 7 years, then I don't think anyone can explain it to you.

If there is seven years worth of posts by people arguing "against Evernote providing this feature", surely you can dredge up at least one post...??? Rather than just flapping your proverbial gums.

YAWN.

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I want to see more Heirarchial structures.

 

I would like to see it in the form of 'ear-marked' tags... Where I can earmark some specific tags to Notebooks that show up next to the Notebooks in Notebook Pain.

 

Essentially just tags with extra functionality. I.e. little red tags.. That visibly show next to the notebook I earmarked them to..

 

A visible hierarchy just like stacks with "clickability' to get to that 'subdivision' within the notebook they are earmarked to..... Nothing more... 

 

I think if they do that right they can satisfy the often requested sub-notebook. feature, without running from Evernote's tagging model.

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I was just reviewing some of my Notes in Evernote, and I ran across this 2010 Evernote Blog that I found very interesting.

 

Posted by Andrew Sinkov on 27 Apr 2010

 

Here is an excerpt on a question about "subfolders", which really means Sub-Notebooks:

[Question by ThinkWasabi]:

WHEN WILL SUCH HIGHLY DEMANDED CAPABILITIES AS SUBFOLDERS BECOME AVAILABLE? WILL WE SEE A LINUX VERSION SOON?

 
[Answer by CEO Phil Libin]:
Subfolders are in big demand! The other day, we had users submit questions on our blog and I answered over 150 of them. Subfolders were probably the most requested feature. We had originally hoped that nested tags would be good enough, but it looks like people want more. We’re trying to design subfolders now (many people want them, but few agree on how they should work) and will decide on how this feature fits into our roadmap soon.

 

Unfortunately this only led to "Stacks", and not the full hierarchical Notebooks that most wanted.

 

Still, it's a great acknowledgement by Evernote of the high popularity of this feature.

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Less than 2 years after it launched and with way fewer users,  it's possible most of those requests were coming from new users who were still wedded to the traditional folder system.  Since then it's either proven much harder than was originally thought to crowbar the existing code into allowing multiple levels of folder,  or a growingly sophisticated user-base lost interest in the topic and got distracted into other areas. Either way,  the basic facts remain:  despite being discussed in circles here for 37 pages,  multi-level folders didn't happen (yet).  

 

Meantime I'd far rather see rock-solid syncs / no freezes / faster and better searches (amongst many other things) at the top of the agenda.

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Meantime I'd far rather see rock-solid syncs / no freezes / faster and better searches (amongst many other things) at the top of the agenda.

 

I totally agree with this.  Sync must be rock-solid, and searches must provide the same results across all platforms.

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Product limitation on being able to have a simple and easy way to NEST / Sub folder / Visually Hierarchal Tree information  is still a hugh issue with in the tool set!!!!

 

1) Love Evernote

2) Off and on user for 4 plus years - Forced myself to consolidated my daily use to Evernote for about 18 months. (Good days and AHHHHHH days but good ones have been enough to keep me on task as my daily tool)

3) Lack of true and simple nesting has always been a chalange (and a huge impact to effective time usage. Eg wasted enegery trying to use new options in combinations with old options to meet my orginizational needs, and wasted time just accessing / searching for information due to the lack of this)

4) OS and Device Platform support has meet the need with Sync

5) Recent quaility Improvements (past 12 Months):

     a) Stacks and Stack managment has been a blesing

     B) Web Clipping and Clearly have been great adds and it is always great to see these things improve and spread accros Platforms (OS, Device & Browsers)

     c) Intergrations with other tools / applications

     d) Syncrozation and options on correcting or forcing resync have been better over the last 6 months.

     e) Ability to intergrate other MutilMedia information types directly into a note rather than just a link has bee helpful need ability to do both Consolidate info as well as link to info.

     f) Sharing info - Chat - This is one of those ""Improvements to Sharing"" information that for me has been nothing less than AHHHHHHHHHHH trying to make it work for our needs. Still happy to see development in this space hower to me the simple truth is just improve the sharing options to meet the need rather than pull in another area of technology that should not be inside the tool but linked to other tools that provide that service and a better way to improve the intergtation to those or between those tools and improvments to just the existing evernote functions for sharing information.

 

Ok enough of the background, bottom line I have read for years how the under line Evernote product concept has been built and the redirection of how to drastically change how one should orginize information and brain wave patterns as well as how the future for this space looks like potentially even more of a new land scape. The underlying fact is efficancy and ability to be effective with tons of data at our finger tiips in the extend world of the internet and how that relates to our need to have a more limited set of that information captured or tracked at our disposal in a managed structure and potentially off net access.

 

I dont know how many times (or how many hours) I have tried to leverage Tags, Notebooks, Stacks, Links & Notes to meet my simple need for nesting or relating information together so its relation ship is not lost and is easly managed. But as I went through the delimigh again this morning I decided I should chime in to say from a concept view it is absoltely simple to see that nesting either Stacks or Notebooks is the simple solution. I dont know from a code base how difficult this would be for Evernote but to me it seems to not be a code issue but much more of a product managment and physlophy of how is the best way to orginize information!!!!

 

So to summarize Please Please Please keep consideration for enableing the abilty to nest information more than just 3 levels in sight!!!!!  For me personally if I just had about 3 more levels I would be about 40% more effictive!!!! with this kind of information.

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Yes, yes, I cry out for nested notebooks/notestacks, just like nested file folders in any OS. For a simple reason--it's just so intuitive, logical, and natural way to org the files/notes. By contrast nested tags would suffer limited functionality and they are certaily NOT intuitive and logical.

I hope these numerous requests are heard and Evernote will get this feature churned out soon.

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So:  I have a scanned receipt for my car insurance.  Do I file it under Personal > Car > Insurance?  Or under Insurance > Car > Personal?  Or Expenses > Car? 

 

Or should I just file the thing and add Personal / Car / Insurance / Expenses as tags and find it any way I search?

 

If I missed my nested folder structure,  I could nest tags in similar ways,  but that's just a convenience.  Or you could have tags nested under A, B, C so your tags window is 26 lines long,  and you can look up names quickly.

 

Nested folders aren't efficient or logical.  Tags are far simpler and more flexible.  Just my opinion.

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Yes, yes, I cry out for nested notebooks/notestacks, just like nested file folders in any OS. For a simple reason--it's just so intuitive, logical, and natural way to org the files/notes.

Nested notebooks/folders are anything but intuitive or logical, for the reasons Gaz mentioned above. Jefito's classic example is if I have a red, round, rubber ball, do I file it under things that are red? Things that are round? Things that are rubber? Things that are toys? This becomes more complex the more notes you have. If you have only a few hundred notes, then it may be pretty easy to retrieve them by digging around in nested notebooks/folders. But if you have tens of thousands of notes, it becomes a nightmare. If we came out of the womb knowing to use nested notebooks/folders, then it would seem applications like Mac's Finder or Windows Locate32 or Everything would be useless.

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Jefito's classic example 

Does "classic" mean old? :)

 

Anyways, "intuitive" is a frequently misused and misunderstood term; this is all learned behavior here. And tags and hierarchies are both logical constructs -- there's nothing illogical about tags.

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Nested folders aren't efficient or logical.  . . .  Just my opinion.

 

@Gaz:  You should add "to me".  But then you did add "Just my opinion".  Same thing I guess.   :)

 

As has been stated numerous times, nested folders (AKA sub-notebooks) are very logical and efficient to some of us, especially for some use cases.  Organization of projects is just one clear example.

 

I think this directly relates to a statement often made by many of us:  We should each be able to organize our information in a way that best suits him/herself.  Some would like and use sub-notebooks, others might not.

 

I'd like to add that BOTH sub-notebooks and tags have their place in organizing info.

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what i would like to see is the ability to create a stack with in a stack. ex.....

Receipts - stack
my receipts - stack
march 2015 - notebook
april 2015 - notebook
wifes receipts - stack
march 2015 -notebook
april 2015 - notebook
 

under the Receipts stack i want to have a stack for me and a stack for my wife. and under each of our personal stacks i want to create a notebook for each month. so when i scan a receipt this month it gets put in the notebook for this month. this would help in keeping things alot more organized. 

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what i would like to see is the ability to create a stack with in a stack. ex.....

Receipts - stack

my receipts - stack

march 2015 - notebook

april 2015 - notebook

wifes receipts - stack

march 2015 -notebook

april 2015 - notebook

 

under the Receipts stack i want to have a stack for me and a stack for my wife. and under each of our personal stacks i want to create a notebook for each month. so when i scan a receipt this month it gets put in the notebook for this month. this would help in keeping things alot more organized. 

 

That would be nice... but a (heck of a nice) workaround for now might be to:

  1. Create a Receipts Stack with a notebook for each month and tag yours and your wife's receipts accordingly. You can easily filter by tag. 
  2. OR... create a Receipts Stack with a notebook for both you and your wife... and then tag receipts according to month
  3. OR... create one notebook called "Receipts" and tag yours and you wife's receipts according to "his" and "hers"...  as well as a month and a year tag (I recommend this third option).
    • You can filter for more than 2 tags at a time. 

The advantage of using tags is that you can:

  • Save yourself notebooks (you have a limit of 250)
    • 10 "year" tags, 12 "month" tags and a "his" and "hers" tag (24 tags) will replace 120 months' worth of notebooks over a 10-year period (240 notebooks between you and your wife in total), since you're recycling tags (combinations)
    • Shorter list of tags than notebooks (in this use case)
  • Filter for all receipts for December across multiple years
  • It is the only scenario under which you can achieve your requirements in Evernote currently
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We don't have sub-notebooks, but you can organize tags into a hierarchy. This may allow you to set up the organizational scheme you're looking for.

 

New to Evernote, this is a surprise and disappointment. Virtually every program I use has nested folders to one degree or another. Why would Evernote not have the same in the form of nested notebooks? I'd love to move all of my stuff into Evernote and use Evernote as the primary organizer for our two-location business. This would be a simple matter if we could create sub notebooks at multiple levels. Yes, I read here that tags can provide a workaround of sorts but why should a workaround be necessary?

 

I've never been one to use tags. A well-defined filing system and the search functions various programs provide have always met my needs. Why should I be forced to use tags when sub-folders will do? Why should I be forced to learn and add a tag scheme to a filing system that has served me well forever without tags? Originally excited about the possibilities Evernote creates for me and my business, the inability to easily create sub notebooks at multiple levels throws cold water on the whole idea.

 

Would it be difficult for Evernote to add hierarchical notebooks as a feature? What keeps Evernote from doing this?

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Yes, yes, I cry out for nested notebooks/notestacks, just like nested file folders in any OS. For a simple reason--it's just so intuitive, logical, and natural way to org the files/notes.

Nested notebooks/folders are anything but intuitive or logical, for the reasons Gaz mentioned above. Jefito's classic example is if I have a red, round, rubber ball, do I file it under things that are red? Things that are round? Things that are rubber? Things that are toys? This becomes more complex the more notes you have. If you have only a few hundred notes, then it may be pretty easy to retrieve them by digging around in nested notebooks/folders. But if you have tens of thousands of notes, it becomes a nightmare. If we came out of the womb knowing to use nested notebooks/folders, then it would seem applications like Mac's Finder or Windows Locate32 or Everything would be useless.

 

 

Some of us (a good portion, perhaps) do not have tens of thousands of notes but even if I did, a hierarchical notebook system would be helpful. I don't live life generating and collecting notes at random. Whether something is filed under the category red, round or rubber ball depends on more than the item's characteristics alone. In our business, it depends on it's purpose and our purpose in creating the note.

 

We happen to have red, round rubber balls in our facilities. When I am walking about and happen to look at them, I might notice they are dirty and need cleaning. That is a maintenance task. The logical next action is to add that task to the maintenance list (note) and store it here: Maintenance|Weekly. Then, when I next meet with our maintenance staff, or conduct a maintenance inspection, the ball issue is addressed when the checklist is referenced. Notice how this has nothing to do with the characteristics of the ball itself. It has everything to do with supervising staff and keeping our facility clean and well maintained.

 

Notice also how things change. A ball that is multi-tagged when brought new into the facility would be red, round and rubber. Later it became dirty. Do you then create a tag "dirty" for that? Do you create a "needs cleaning" tag for the ball and other items that are found dirty? If the cleaning task is assigned to Joe, do you create a Joe tag? And if you do, what do you do if Joe leaves and Jane takes his place? Relying on tags alone is an invitation for chaos in a dynamic enterprise. You could end up creating and recreating tags for the purpose of creating and recreating tags, and in that kind of unfocused thinking, you may easily miss essential tasks. We're not in business to do that. We're in business to get things done.

 

Back to the ball, the same red, round, rubber ball gets replaced every so often with a new one. We purchase new equipment twice a year. If Evernote had hierarchical notebooks, the note "replace ball" would be filed with other such notes in one of two folders: Purchasing|Later or Purchasing|Upcoming Round. The choice is determined by the condition of the ball that is observed when the list of items in the Purchasing|Later folder is reviewed.

 

Notice the difference. You are talking about nouns (ball) and ajectives (red, round, rubber). I am talking about verbs; specific action items that staff or I take regarding the ball. Tagging items by their characteristics is meaningless to us. If I tagged everything in our business by each thing's characteristics, it would be (1) a waste of time and (2) counterproductive. It would be a waste of time because the tags "red, round or rubber" have no meaning whatsoever given the ball's role in our business. It would be counterproductive because pulling up everything that had a tag "rubber" on it would force us to go through a list of search results (matt, handle, bumper, guard, plate, mallet, check, etc.) to get to the item we realy want (ball). And even then, that search-result list tells us nothing about what to do next. Unless you create a class of action tags, there is nothing about a ball's characteristics that tell us what to do next with it. But if you try to create a class of action tags, how exactly would each tag apply to each person and thing in our business?

 

If you are a librarian or warehouse manager organizing a static collection of stuff for the purpose of quickly retreiving something later, or at random if it happens to come to mind; or if you are a free spirit engaged in a creative thinking exercise, tags are probably a godsend. If you are a business person organizing the SPECIFIC NEXT ACTIONS you and your staff will take in our respective daily walks, a hirerachical notebook system would greatly increase Evernote's usefulness and efficiency.

 

The ball does not determine where, how and when to categorize it, I do. In that ongoing activity, a hierarchical folder (notebook) system is not only desirable, it is essential.

 

That is not to say that tags do not have their wonderful uses. They certainly do in many applications. But a hierarchical notebook system has its wonderful uses too. One does not replace the other. Together, the two make each other more powerful. 

 

It would mean a great deal to me and my business if hierarchical notebooks were added to Evernote.

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Hi. 

 

Since the first item you quote by Engberg was dated 2008,  it appears that Evernote is in no hurry to adopt a hierarchical structure.  There has been a lot of discussion about this in the past,  but the situation boils down to:  Evernote get to choose what they do.  They have chosen (so far) not to do this.  Whether that's for practical,  technical or idealogical reasons,  no-one knows.  Unless they already have been working on a change though,  even if they decide to embrace this new philosophy,  it won't happen soon.

 

In the meantime,  it is perfectly feasible to run a large note system without either notebooks or (many) tags.  If that doesn't suit your use case,  there are other note-taking apps out there that may do better.

 

For some purposes I agree a folder structure is a good way to filter information.  For others I prefer outlines or mindmaps.  Alongside Evernote,  which is still my main information store,  I use Treepad for folders,  Workflowy for outlines and MIndjet / Freeplane for mindmaps. 

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So:  I have a scanned receipt for my car insurance.  Do I file it under Personal > Car > Insurance?  Or under Insurance > Car > Personal?  Or Expenses > Car? 

 

Or should I just file the thing and add Personal / Car / Insurance / Expenses as tags and find it any way I search?

 

The answer depends on why you are scanning the receipt in the first place. In my case, it is to create an easily retrievable copy of that receipt if I had to prove payment was made. The expenditure itself is already recorded in my bookkeeping system. Tagging it three times is one approach. Mine would be to file it under Vendors|(Insurance Company Name). In this hypothetical scenario, I'd  name the file: 2015-06-19 Car Insurance Receipt. Every other document relating to that vendor is similarly named and filed. That gives me the ability to instantly review, in date order, everything that has ever happened in my relationship with this vendor. The file name is the tag. It can be found by using Evernote search without having to create tags too. You have to name the file something, name it in way that eliminates the need to tag.

 

The real scenario is to scan and attach the receipt to the listed item in the bookkeeping system, but that requires people to have such a bookkeeping system up and running.

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How do you deal with the access to the asset if you change providers?

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Some people continually repeat that "Nested notebooks/folders are anything but intuitive or logical".

Perhaps what the author means is that they are not intuitive or logical to the speaker/author making the statement.

 

Clearly, hierarchical organizational methods are very intuitive/logical to many of us, but apparently not to all.

We have been using hierarchical organization methods far, far, longer than we've been using this new invention called "tags".  Both methods are useful, and I see no need to put down one or the other.

 

I could definitely put sub-notebooks to good use in Evernote.  But, since it appears that Evernote is not likely to provide this feature any time soon, if ever, I have made good use of Evernote without them, using a limited number of stacks/notebooks with plenty of tags, and good, consistent Note Title naming convention.

 

BTW, since we now have had Note Links for several years, the answer to the oft asked question of where to store a Note that could/does have multiple parent Notebooks (the old car insurance question), is to put the actual, master note wherever is most, natural, logical to you, and then create another note in the other "parent" notebook, with a link back to the master Note.

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Don't exactly know what triggered the resurrection of the hierarchical organizational debate, I was just wondering how the OP would handle changing insurance companies for an asset. 

 

People do things in different ways that feel comfortable to them, just trying to understand the OPs way.  Been around the block long enough to know there is no ONE way.

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My post had nothing to do with you or your post, Cal.

 

Simply making the point that both hierarchical structures (sub-notebooks) and tags are useful.

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Still new to Evernote and liking much about the product, I am struggling to use Evernote without unlimited notebooks and sub-notebooks. Obviously, tags and nested tags make sense to the Evernote developers and many fans but they do not yet make sense to me.

 

(1) Where can I go to read the rationale behind tags and the anti-hierarchy stance Evernote seems to take? Perhaps if I understood more about that, Evernote would come more easily to me.

 

(2) When you come from a lifetime of using physical file drawers and the Windows folders and files scheme, and from a lifetime of categorizing and organizing everything by major topics and sub topics, what mental shift is needed to make Evernote tags work?

 

As I learn Evernote, certain tag shortcomings are becoming evident. How can these be addressed? Examples:

 

(A.) Say I created a project (major topic) and a dozen notes related to it (sub-topics) and say the project is completed and archived, perhaps never to be referenced again. Also say I tucked that project and all its notes away in an archive notebook because I want everything always in Evernote. To keep meaningless notes from the past from showing up on the list when I click a common-sense tag that was used in the past and is also used in present projects (Contractor Mike, City Permit, Pending Delivery, etc.), must I delete all such tags from all notes of the  completed project before archiving it? If so, you can see where it gets frustrating to operate without a notebook/sub-notebook system. With that system, All I would have to do is move the entire project and all untagged notes into an archive notebook and be done with it.

 

(B.) Today, a new project came to mind; master Evernote (master is a verb in this case). Using my tratitional system, my natural instinct leads me to go to my projects folder and create a sub-folder named "Master Evernote." In my daily walk, as resources become known and thoughts come to mind that relate to this project, each item (note, photo, link, book reference, idea, etc.) would be added to the Master Evernote folder. If appropriate, sub-folders may be created within the Master Evernote folder to better organize various items. When I made time or found time to work on this project, I'd simply go to the project folder and sub-folders and begin work. As the project evolves, and if it makes sense to rename a sub-folder or recategorize a group of items within the project, that can be instantly done in one step by renaming or moving the subfolder. So to with an individual item, simply move or rename the item. But if tags are used, it seems there is a major shortcoming in that to recategorize a collection of notes, you have to change the tags on every note. How is that inefficiency avoided or overcome?

 

I am still learning so the following criticism of tags may be off base, but at present it seems to me that tags present a major problem on the back end. Tags useful at first become litter and clutter later that must be cleaned up when the tagged items are recategorized or become no longer relevant. Globally deleting or renaming a tag is not a solution because that same tag may be used elsewhere in Evernote in a way that serves a good purpose. You could work around that, I suppose, by developing a more complex tag naming structure but why should we have to work around anything? Why can't Evernote simply allow us to use nested notebooks in a multi-level hierarchy?

 

At the heart of all of this is my sense of where things are. With folders and sub-folders, that comes easily to me. Using nested tags alone, it is a mental struggle to know where to go to find something, and where to go to file something new. Yes, a note can be tagged for easy reference later, but where does the note itself reside?

 

I suppose you can keep things "simple" by dumping everything into a single notebook, tagging everything as appropriate and letting the nested tag screen tell you where things "are." That seems risky because if you accidently globally lose or delete a tag, like might happen when sitting in front of your screen when tired, the only way to bring that back is to recover your backup file (assuming you made one recently) or go manually through every note you have to re-tag as appropriate. In a business setting this risk is huge because notebooks are shared and there is no telling what a well-intentioned or errant staff member may do with tags, even if one is told what to do and not do. Yes, the same risk exists with folders and sub-folders but those are not global like tags are.

 

Comments of all kinds will be appreciated. As stated above, I like Evernote and really want to make it work.

 

I once saw a T-shirt that said, "Everything I have ever let go of has claw marks all over it." Perhaps with that trait activated, let me close by asking, what is so terrible about the folder/sub-folder scheme that Evernot cannot add it as a feature? It seems to be a popular and ongoing request. Why has it not been added?  What policy, obstacle or idea keeps Evernote from allowing unlimited notebooks and notebooks that can hold sub-notebooks at multiple levels?

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Hi - Evernote haven't (AFAIK) published anything in detail on how or why they chose stacks,  notebooks,  titles and tags over a hierarchical system.  They chose the current setup,  and show no great inclination to change,  so the choices are: work within the limits of what we have,  or use a different package.  Google searches will get you lots of information,  both inside and outside the forums,  on how to use the features you have.

 

Random comments now on your various other points...

 

There isn't an 'anti-hierarchy' stance at Evernote, they just appear not to wish to change something which seems to work for most folks.  They're a business after all - why undertake a potentially expensive re-tooling exercise if you don't have to?

 

Archived items (if you want to keep a record but don't want search confusion) can be exported to files or additional free accounts.

 

New projects may require their own notebook for a while,  as new notes are added.  As the project develops those notes may be tagged "marketing" or "technical" or some such.  To recategorise a group of notes in that notebook,  just select the notes and add to or change the tagging.  No deletion required.

 

In my account with nearly 20,000 notes,  most of them are in one notebook and many are untagged,  because I can find them with a search.  I'd suggest you try Evernote for a while,  to get used to the practicalities of working in this way.  To add new material,  just clip.  To categorise,  add titles and tags.  If you really have to (new projects / shared notes / Local Notebooks),  add a new notebook..

 

And on your last point,  see above - Evernote 'could' do lots of things to make their product more attractive.  But how much would it cost,  how many extra paying users might that generate,  and over what sort of period might they expect payback and profit?

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I don't know why EN has opted not to extend the notebook hierarchy beyond the stack concept.  Since this is page 38 of this thread there has been a lot of discussion re this concept in general.  If it is really important to you to have a deeper folder hierarchy, EN might not be the tool that you want to use.  However, I think you can still accomplish your goals, though in a slightly different way (read claw marks).  Your call in the end obviously.

 

To be clear I am a proponent of minimalist notebooks, using tags I can mostly remember (which means not too granular), and the power of the search engine.  I think too many notebooks constrict searching, for my use case anyway.  To your specific concerns.

 

(1) Search the forum for various posts on notebooks vs tags, how to use tags, using keywords, etc.  Many different methods embedded in those posts.

 

(2) To discuss how to view tags I think I need to mention notebooks first.  I view notebooks as containers for a large grouping of notes.  I have six notebooks, 2 synched and 4 local (excluding INBOX and Scans which tend to be empty).  Most of my synched notes are in one notebook the other is for receipts.  This makes it easier to limit the search, but frankly most of my searches are at the All Notes level.  I view the tags in EN as a grouping mechanism.  Sometimes they can form a hierarchy.  For example Accounts - Bank - Wells.Fargo is a three level tag hierarchy which includes Credit, Insurance and the like at the second level and all of the third level are actual companies.  I use the same tag hierarchy concept for projects.  End of the day though, it is the bottom level tag that makes a difference in searches.  The rest is just for left panel display.  Don't know if this is clear or answers your question, but I guess you could say I use tags in flat and hierarchical methods.

 

A - For this I would create a stack containing all of your active notebooks and perform your searches with that as the context.  Should you ever want to see all notes with the tag you can use All Notes as the context.  No need to delete or rename any tags.

 

B - When I start a new project I create a tag and add that tag to the shortcuts bar for quick access to work the project.  I put the tag in my tag project hierarchy.  I don't really move anything after that, I may add other tags to some of the notes, but often don't.  No real need for any global re-categorization, the initial tag sets it up.

 

Tags can definitely become clutter when they are too discrete, as can notebooks in my view.  The last thing you want is a complex tag structure or a tag for every little thing.  Easy to remember, oft used tags are the way to go.  A tag should only have one meaning across all your data.  For me notebooks and tags should enable a search which gets me to 25 or so notes (1 of which being the one I want) out of the largest possible context that I can then word search or scan if I like.  I have 30k notes now.

 

For me the note resides in EN in one of 6 notebooks which comprise two stacks.  Tags and word searches are how I find the note.  Oftentimes I work in EN without the left panel even showing (using the F10 option).  So I guess I'm not as concerned where the note is as how do I find it.  I may be taking the risk that you mention of being able to accidentally delete a tag and suffering the consequences.  Safe so far.  Same risk with notebooks as you state, difference being the notes are gone if you delete a notebook.  Not a point I would make a decision on though.

 

I will stress my methods are not for everyone.  I'm okay conceptually using tags in a flat and hierarchical fashion, once I got my head wrapped around it.  Works for me and my use case and that's about it.   :)  

 

 If any thing I would go for a Boolean search capability before more deeply nested notebooks.  Workarounds for that are more painful.

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This approach would work for me if I were to start collecting notes now and expected to have just few dozens of notes at the most. But I've been collecting nested personal and business notes since Palm invented the first PDA. Since then I've migrated through four different platforms and apps combination. I hope to leave my family-notes as a legacy. For that purpose, a nested note system makes it easier and more intuitive to browse the notes without any preconception of a tag configuration.

I currently use CarbonFin that works pretty well. Although it contains thousands of sub notes, it's not intimidating at all: the home screen only has 11 notes. However it does not allow graphics nor embedded links. My main concern though is that CarbonFin does not seem to have a monetized business plan: they do not charge for app updates (Mobile of Web), and they do not sell ads either. I feel like it's a matter of time before they lose interest in maintaining the system (unless of course EverNote acquires them).

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This approach would work for me if I were to start collecting notes now and expected to have just few dozens of notes at the most. But I've been collecting nested personal and business notes since Palm invented the first PDA. Since then I've migrated through four different platforms and apps combination. I hope to leave my family-notes as a legacy. For that purpose, a nested note system makes it easier and more intuitive to browse the notes without any preconception of a tag configuration.

Yes is true... maybe.

I mean, whenever I've had to look into someone else storage to find something I always felt lost, more or less. The fact is what seem us intuitive and logical is often a cognitive bias.

So, I think the key, whatever the system you use, is to document your filling system. It is particulary true when you have to collab, share or transmit your infos, but even for a personnal use (do what I say, not what I do :unsure: ). Maybe, however, this need is more important with tagging system (I feel so in any case).

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Maybe an app developer is reading our conversation, and is planning to offer a combination of CarbonFin and EverNote in one new app.

The outline approach might be a cognitive bias to those who work with tags daily, but outline is what has been used in table-of-contents for millennia. It's worth a chance as an opinion for the development of hierarchical order. A new productivity app is badly needed in data organization. C'mon Google are you listening?

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Maybe an app developer is reading our conversation, and is planning to offer a combination of CarbonFin and EverNote in one new app.

The outline approach might be a cognitive bias to those who work with tags daily, but outline is what has been used in table-of-contents for millennia. It's worth a chance as an opinion for the development of hierarchical order. A new productivity app is badly needed in data organization. C'mon Google are you listening?

 

Hmmn.  Have you used Gmail recently?

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I haven't been here that much in a few weeks, and am really not up to backtracking through this thread, so please forgive me if I'm stating an obvious point...

@Workingman and @Christozoid, I used to handle a massive paper filing system as part of my job, so I do understand where you're coming from with regards to a hierarchical system of folders and sub-folders. Not using them when I first started with EN was a huge adjustment for me, but I now, by far, prefer the Tag system.

Granted, I'm not using EN in a business setting as I once did with the paper filing system, but I do recall one aspect of the the folder system that used to drive me nuts...and was equally applicable to the thousands of electronic files I processed and tracked each day.

That is that even with set perameters in place for everyone who has access to the files, people will always think just enough differently from everyone one else. What makes sense to as the appropriate destination for a document, even with clearly defined guides and "rules" set out for reference. In my experience, that inevitably led to problems with some files being located in hard to find locations.

The solution was to make copies of certain files - meaning those that could be applicable to more than one topic (or project) in the minds of someone accessing them, and put copies into every folder where they might look - and have a fairly elaborate cross-referencing system in place that I, as the filing gate keeper, had to set up and enforce.

Hope this is making sense...

With electronic files, the obvious problem with files that were worked on by more than one person, is how easily the current version can get lost or overwritten. This is where I find using the Tag system, along with a limited heirarchy of Notebook structure, Note Links (including creating a Table of Contents with clickable note links), and the use of EN's Search function, to be most effective. It allows me to cross-reference everything, track various projects and quickly drill down to find whatever I need.

In my case, and unlike some of the power users, such as Gazumped, I don't find it beneficial to completely do away with a hierarchical system of Notebooks and Stacks, i.e. folders and sub-folders. But I've managed over the past couple years, with some experimenting that led to reorganizing my EN database a few times, how to reduce and limit the number of Notebooks I actually need. That includes deleting or renaming several Tags a few times.

Tags can be safely deleted with having to worry about accidently losing individual Notes or entire Notebooks. (Though the latter two can be retrieved from your Trash Notebook, assuming you haven't deleted them from there too.) Tags, for me, serve the same function as making copies of my Notes (files) to put in every possibly applicable Notebook (folder). As others have pointed out, you don't want to get too carried away with Tags and end up with a ton that fast end up redundant and overwhelming.

Another handy thing about them, is the ability of the desktop EN apps to apply a particular Tag to multiple Notes at the same time select by first selecting them, then adding the Tag. Tags are also a great way to identify and grab all the notes belonging to a specific project that you want to archive out of your EN database.

Okay, I could keep going on about the pros of tagging for far too long, so I'll wrap it up now.

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As a person who has deep-seated pigeon-hole tendencies myself, it's been a difficult retraining.  But speaking up for tags (and I have 5400+ notes right now), their greatest value is one note appearing in many places based on tags.  It is seldom a note has utility in just a single domain, even if it's not immediately apparent when you gather it.  

I'll search all my notes several times using different parameters as needed for a project, give them a common tag for that project, and then using that tag gather all those into a special folder for that project.  When I'm finished, I'll create a TOC note as a reminder, and them dump the notes all back into the shared folder with that project tag still attached.   Some of my notes have a dozen tags from being associated with many writing projects.  

Think of it as 'catch, tag and release' for ideas.  

Maybe the preference for tags or subfolders really has something to do with innate cognitive differences and personality types/learning styles.   That would be an interesting psych study.  

 

As an old, old SQL dB development hand, I've watched the machine side go from deep nesting to flatter, fuzzy logic, NO SQL-style of Big Data/HADOOP manipulation.  It's been a jaw-dropping transformation in the data world, which makes me think EN is on the right side of dB history in the tags vs ratholes debate.  

 

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I must agree with those who find tags less than intuitive and that being able to have multiple levels of notebook nesting easier to use.  The concept of multiple levels fits nicely with wide spread outline experience in which topics can be nested to multiple levels.  I have also found the search function on everynote to be less than optimal.  It brings up many items that are not at all relevant and frankly at times I can't understand why a particular note was "hit"

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I must agree with those who find tags less than intuitive and that being able to have multiple levels of notebook nesting easier to use.  The concept of multiple levels fits nicely with wide spread outline experience in which topics can be nested to multiple levels.  I have also found the search function on everynote to be less than optimal.  It brings up many items that are not at all relevant and frankly at times I can't understand why a particular note was "hit"

 

I also agree that tags are initially less intuitive,  and that there is a 'brain training' period of months during which tags can be downright infuriating.  But once you get used to the concept it's like riding the proverbial bike.  I don't think either method is better - but from all appearances Evernote has no plans to change from the present layout,  so it's get used to the practice,  or find different software. 

 

Getting false hits is par for the course with any large database.  It's inevitable that the more (and longer) documents you store,  the more likely any given series of words is to have matches.  The search syntax also takes a little getting used to,  but once you can use it effectively it is possible to find exactly the material you need within one or two operations.  You can then tag that material permanently or temporarily to make searches easier,  or save the successful search for further use.

 

There's lots of discussion and many suggestions for data organisation throughout the forums if you wish to delve further..  or if you have any specific questions please feel free to raise them.

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I have read a lot of post on why having subnotebooks have advantages and speed up the organization and recall of idea's.  So what is EN reason for not including this feature.  Would it slow people down? Are they trying to teach us a better way and we just can't grasp it? Is it to to much processing power? Bandwdth? What is the reason.   

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I have read a lot of post on why having subnotebooks have advantages and speed up the organization and recall of idea's.  So what is EN reason for not including this feature.  Would it slow people down? Are they trying to teach us a better way and we just can't grasp it? Is it to to much processing power? Bandwdth? What is the reason.   

 

There are innumerable posts in the forums covering both sides of the argument - for and against hierarchies.  Evernote don't generally seem to feel a need to justify their product design - the simple fact is that this has been the choice since it's inception,  and they've shown no inclination to change.  They may have given it some thought,  or they may simply have followed Google who use the same structure - and have even more accounts than Evernote. 

 

As a user,  either you learn to use it,  or you find a different product.  :( 

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Well, I've been waiting for years to see nested sub-notes in Evernote. I started using outliner apps since the era of the Palm smart phones, and I have accumulated legacy notes with as much as 5 layers of hierarcal sub-notes deep. As of now, I use CarbonFin for iOS and Windows. I believe that it is the last of multi platform outliner apps. I'd feel better if they would charge a fee for their services in order to stay in business, but they are not monetized by any means that I can see: not by ads, nor by subscription. Any one who knows of a similar outliner, please advise me.

As for Evernote, I believe they never envisioned the use of their app as an OUTLINER with ability of infinite collapse and expansion: which is no small fit of programming either. Furthermore the newcomers in information management perhaps never experienced the practical benefits of an outliner, so they are not compelling the app creators like EN to offer such depth in their apps. Let' hope that some new startups find it profitable to court the outliner users, and save this effective tool of information management.

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Any one who knows of a similar outliner, please advise me.

 

 

workflowy.com

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All good reasons for requesting sub stacks- basically Evernote thinks they know best and is not listening to their customer base. I don't want to open Evernote and see 100s of Notebooks or stacks- I want to control what I see.

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Many power-users (customers) on this forum have pointed out the effectiveness of minimizing the # of notebooks.

 

They control what they see with: 

1.) tags

2.) structured consistent titles

3.) YYMMDD title prefixes

4.) Evernote search grammar terms

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I understand that many would prefer a more hierarchical notebook structure.  It just seems EN is disinclined to implement such a thing.

 

IMHO, the more notes you have the more a pain search can become if you have a lot of notebooks/stacks.  Notebooks and stacks segregate your notes in searches so if you didn't put it where you thought you did you won't find it.  Then you end up doing an all notes search or something close.  Tags don't segregate your notes, but if you tag something wrong, same issue and solution. 

 

So for me, as few notebooks and tags as possible is the solution.  Currently I have 8 notebooks, 2 stacks, and 300 or so tags (named so I can remember them) with 30k notes.  Typically I will get a search result with less than 20 notes which makes it easy to find what I was seeking.  FWIW.

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IMHO, the more notes you have the more a pain search can become if you have a lot of notebooks/stacks.  Notebooks and stacks segregate your notes in searches so if you didn't put it where you thought you did you won't find it.  Then you end up doing an all notes search or something close.

 

Sorry Cal, I don't see how having more Notebooks causes you to "have the more a pain search".

If you have more than one Notebook, then you will need to search using "All Notes", which is very easy to do, if you want to search outside of the current selected Notebook.  So it is irrelevant whether you have two, twenty, or 200 Notebooks.

 

Using a Notebooks is just one more way to organize and find your Notes.  Mis-filing is always a concern, but that can happen just as easily with tags and keywords in Note Titles, as with Notebooks.

 

I have found Notebooks to be a very effective tool, especially with entities like projects.

I can first easily filter on Notebook (using the "Jump to Notebook" shortcut), and then, if needed, ADD tag filters using the "Jump to Tag" shortcut.

Also, showing Reminders (used to indicated key notes) AFTER a Notebook and/or tag filter is very powerful.

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I found a huge reason for more than one notebook when I started syncing some notebooks into Jorte Calendar.

Tested and put all my (over 15000) notes into the calendar crashed my phone, twice.

 

If you don't need for more than one notebook, don't have more...

I need more than one...

 

And I tag all notes .NB "notebooks name" so I easy can restore from ENEX (I export stacks)  if I need to. But I still use notebooks

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IMHO, the more notes you have the more a pain search can become if you have a lot of notebooks/stacks.  Notebooks and stacks segregate your notes in searches so if you didn't put it where you thought you did you won't find it.  Then you end up doing an all notes search or something close.

 

Sorry Cal, I don't see how having more Notebooks causes you to "have the more a pain search".

 

No need to be sorry, as always different strokes for different folks.  I simply view notebooks as the way to segregate notes for searches, not to fully organize the notes.  So fewer notebooks makes sense in my world (assuming one puts like notes in the same notebook).  And I would say the bulk of my searches are all notes, some are by stack, and rarely by notebook.  But it ain't for everyone.  :)

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In the beginning, I started off creating a lot of notebooks. Because the notebooks were specific for a topic, each notebook contained just a few notes. Using Evernote's search grammar and consistent title structures allowed me to find the information just as fast as if they were in just one notebook. In other words, the dozens of notebooks were not offering me any advantage. 

 

So I reached a compromise between 1 notebook and the 250 maximum.

 

After a few months, I consolidated the notebooks into broad categories (work, home, leisure, financial, and miscellaneous).  This has worked well for me over the past 7 years and 30,000+ notes.

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