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Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks


cswsteve

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I think Evernote is a fantastic product, especially with the iPhone integration. I currently use a program called UltraRecall because of it's heavy use of subfolders. This makes organizing my data ve

I don't understand why after almost 10 years this has not been implemented yet. Also, I don't understand why workarounds such as tags are considered a good solution. Is it that complicated to add

To all Guru's that keep saying the same thing about being able to do the same thing with tag. This maybe so but is not the point.  Clearly for at least the last 9 Years people have been asking fo

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7 hours ago, CalS said:

Well I suppose it isn't necessarily officially a verdict, but since this topic was started in 2008 and in 2017 the product does not contain the functionality might imply a verdict from the company?  That and other posts in the past from company employees relative to the company line re notebooks and tags.  To date anyway. 

Doesn't mean folks should stop requesting for sure, but at this point...

windmills.jpg.68c49afb5ae3b8df2ae285bf680889ea.jpg

 

First, this kind of work is not good at all. The customer who need helps will have the impression that the product doesn't care about the voice of its customers.

Second, this thread is still open, and its voting is still increasing. Changes take time to happen, so if there is a progress, human usually have a hope. So what I need to know is, is the Evernote team considering this, waiting for the vote to reach a number?, or clearly there is already an answer inside the company,  this suggest were printed to the paper, placed in the meeting table, they had a discussion, and then they said no, and then the paper was thrown to the trash can, and then this thread is still open for the users who have hope about this feature? It hurts.

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32 minutes ago, DTLow said:

You don't have to participate in discussions

So why don't you just leave the thread like it is, and let the number speaks? Why do you also have to participate in this discussion and utter nonsense?

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2 hours ago, kingtrn said:

Why do you also have to participate in this discussion and utter nonsense?

For me the point of the subsequent discussion is to explore the request in more detail, alternatives, work-arounds etc

It can be a learning experience

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On 10/30/2017 at 11:02 AM, Flier said:

I suspect that there were some unfortunate design decisions very early in EN's development which make a change to nested folders difficult without an expensive and risky rewrite.

<snip>

But IMO it is probably cost and risk factors that keep them from implementing what they really should have.

If you follow the history of the thread, then I think you'll probably see that this is an intentional stance on the part of Evernote (look for posts by @engberg), rather than making a virtue out of necessity. My take is that they have tended to emulate GMail's structure more closely than anything else: GMail has some predefined folders, but not nested folders; these are like Evernote notebooks. GMail also has labels, which can be nested, but are more like tags (sadly, the GMail also documentation uses the term 'folders' to describe them, but they are not folder-like in that they can be applied to multiple emails). From everything I've seen from Evernote employee postings, here and elsewhere, they just don't seem to think that nested notebooks are necessary. That being said, there may be added resistance due to cost of implementation, but I really think that the architectural choices here are philosophical.

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Seriously, why is this not a feature yet? There's a reason computer file systems have settled on allowing stacked organization. We needed our file systems to match the shape of the information we planned to store. Then as now, the shape of information in our environment/workplace is nested. It's hierarchical and nested. Evernote will be at best an unsharpened blade until it has this feature.

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23 hours ago, synapticsage said:

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet? There's a reason computer file systems have settled on allowing stacked organization. We needed our file systems to match the shape of the information we planned to store. Then as now, the shape of information in our environment/workplace is nested. It's hierarchical and nested. Evernote will be at best an unsharpened blade until it has this feature.

Google seem to be doing quite well with an essentially flat structure,  and it's simply not true (IMHO) that information has a nested shape.  My receipts live in several 'folders' by virtue of their tags,  including <project> <expenses> <travel> and <tax>.  If I had one location to find them I'd forever be sorting through to find the ones relevant to my current query.  While Evernote invite and welcome feedback,  this isn't a democracy - they're under no obligation to deliver features that we request - and for whatever reason,  there's no sign we will ever get sub-folders or any development of the current very limited hierarchical structure. 

If you really need folders,  then check out other options...

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23 hours ago, synapticsage said:

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet?

Evernote has seriously built an organization method based on Tags methodology

Not sure about the "shape" of information but tags allow me to retrieve data when I need it
Also, I can use an unlimited heirarchy to organize tags on my Mac

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On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet?

Dunno, but over the years I've learned to live with software limitations instead of holding out for the perfect match of features to arise. If I require 5 features, one product will have 4 of them , another another 5, but neither of them all 5. 

So for Evernote I use tags, nested tags, and ParentName.ChildName notation where needed.

Given that Evernote is how it is, that works better for me too because notebook information is not exported in ENEX files whereas tag information is exported in ENEX files. So, using this workaround I have nesting, with the flexibility of tags, and all export information I would want.

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On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet?

This topic, which is admittedly a long one, contains some hints about it from at least one Evernote employee, and some surmise about why it's not a part of Evernote yet. You could read the rest of the topic, or I could recap the surmise again, but maybe yours was just a rhetorical question (though you did say "seriously"), in which case I'd reply "just because that's what Evernote wanted."

On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

There's a reason computer file systems have settled on allowing stacked organization. We needed our file systems to match the shape of the information we planned to store.

Funnily enough, current-day hierarchical file systems do not mirror the shape of actual human information particularly well (e.g., many items can belong in multiple locations, not just in a single slot in a tree). And also funnily enough, you can organize your Evernote notes using tags, which are indeed hierarchical as well as being associative. Further, you can link to other notes, and thereby model a network if you want, something which a strict hierarchy cannot do.

On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

Then as now, the shape of information in our environment/workplace is nested. It's hierarchical and nested.

I put it to you that that ain't necessarily so.

On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

Evernote will be at best an unsharpened blade until it has this feature.

Oh wait, you're looking for a blade? Sorry; but Evernote is a screwdriver...

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On 8/17/2008 at 4:19 PM, cswsteve said:

I think Evernote is a fantastic product, especially with the iPhone integration. :) I currently use a program called UltraRecall because of it's heavy use of subfolders. This makes organizing my data very logical. I was wondering if Evernotes has a way to create subnotebooks under existing notebooks to help group numerious notebooks together?

Example Notebooks:

Work

Clients

Customer1

Customer2

Customer3

Customer4

Personal

Electronics

Web Clips

 

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On 12/31/2017 at 5:59 AM, Angel plancarte said:

I was wondering if Evernotes has a way to create subnotebooks under existing notebooks to help group numerious notebooks together?

Hi.  No,  sorry;  Stacks,  Notebooks,  Notes is all you get - try Tags which are 'virtual subnotebooks' and will group notes together if you search "tag:<mytag>".  You might want to avoid spaces in tag names,  which occasionally cause issues...

 

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Hi Evernote Team,

   It will be great if you provide the feature of nested stack. I have lots of notebooks related to different subjects, and it really helps to nest them under the stacks, but even stacks have groupings. I have to scroll a lot on mac and then find my correct notebook. Can you please provide this feature, I don't want to use tags. Thanks.

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Asked for many times (and often very loudly) over the years,  but never provided;  lots of possible reasons,  but Evernote (so far) has remained silent on whether,  when or how far they might consider this.  I'd be pretty certain it's not gonna happen in the short term - for a variable but long definition of 'short'. 

Not being nasty,  but there are two options - one of which you dislike.  The other one is find some other software that works for you... 

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4 hours ago, Kirkmanamos said:

I really could use nested notebooks, it works better for me then a nested tag system 

Evernote doesn't offer nested notebooks, but there is a Stack feature; in effect 1 level of nesting

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I just purchased the premium edition of evernote and I am extremely disappointed you can't organize like this. I need the exact same organization that Pivo describes above. One Note does this... I guess I should have just stuck with them. 

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On 2018-01-20 at 7:57 AM, asowers said:

I need the exact same organization that Pivo describes above.

Just to be clear, @Pivo is asking to organize notes, using nested Stacks

Evernote organizes notes in Notebooks.  
Notebooks can be organized in Stacks

For additional levels of organization, Evernote has a Tag feature.

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Tags are not, in my opinion, a way of organising notes. They create links between notes that wouldn't normally be together, to aid searching and finding notes. They aren't for organisation, they're for finding organisationally separate notes.

Evernote's facebook poll showed clearly that most people use notebooks for organising notes:

Ideally, from the way Evernote is set up, you should organise your notes with notebooks and add extra tags to aid searching/finding. That's a brilliant system, because it combines structure and flexibility. That's the way blogs do it: organised by date, then use tags for finding; almost every website keeps tags separate from the menus, for very good reasons. They aren't mean to do the same thing. They are meant to complement each other.

But the weird thing in Evernote's 'answer' is that it creates conflict between notebooks and tags: use tags, they say, for hierarchy. That nearly destroys the purpose of notebooks, which are very structured (a note can only exist in one notebook, while it can have multiple tags). And it doesn't let tags do their job: I now can't separate my structure from my finding.

I think Evernote's resistance is that allowing only three levels (notes, notebooks, notebook stacks) forces people to be really organised. It's certainly helped me in that regard, and it gives their product an edge for good reason. 

So I like limited hierarchy. But I think they've misjudged the number of notebook levels necessary for people to get organised. I think one more level would fix things. The reason is this.

Think of how people organise their lives. Nearly every person on the planet has the same basic groups of responsibility in their life: personal, work, family, hobbies, social clubs/activities, which is a superb way to organise things, because they don't often cross over each other. Each responsibility has distinct blocks, like personal (exercise; diet stuff; spiritual; documents; contacts; photos; garden), work (Grants; several Experiments; Projects). And here is the catch: Some of those blocks are fine as a single notebook (eg personal contacts). But some aren't, like work projects which can warrant entire notebooks just for emails, another for meetings, another for statistical analysis, another for report writing. If people used Evernote for just one area of life, like work, you wouldn't need the extra level. Problem is, they do.

To illustrate the problem. I have a notebook stack for work (and a bunch of others for other areas of life). I am currently writing several papers (just like many people would have several projects running at work) simultaneously for work. Each one is using a separate dataset, a separate set of experiments, separate emails, separate meetings notes. So each paper warrants several notebooks. But I can't do that unless I take the paper outside the work notebook stack and make a stack for each paper. That's a pain, because it stuffs up my organisation and makes it difficult to find my stacks in a spot where they shouldn't be.

Add at least one more level to notebooks. Call it a shelf or something. Make it graphically distinct. But add more levels to notebooks.

 

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12 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Tags are not, in my opinion, a way of organising notes. They create links between notes that wouldn't normally be together, to aid searching and finding notes. They aren't for organisation, they're for finding organisationally separate notes.

It might depend on your purpose for organizing notes;
"create links between notes that wouldn't normally be together, to aid searching and finding notes" works for me :)

>>Evernote's facebook poll showed clearly that most people use notebooks for organising notes

There's a story that if Ford had asked his customers what they wanted, they would have said faster horses

>>from the way Evernote is set up, you should organise your notes with notebooks

Evernote is set up with two attributes that can be assigned to notes; Notebooks and Tags
Its more than just different names; each have specific features

5a8473e0e5068_ScreenShot2018-02-14at09_37_16.png.58075af2254a5045af8d943d99ca76a7.png

 

 

 

 

These are the tools.  It's your choice how you use them
I use - tags for organization
         - notebooks for the sync'd/local, shared, offline feature

>>Add at least one more level to notebooks.

If I was going to use notebooks for organization, I'd want unlimited hierarchy
Also, and increase in the max, multiple entries per note, and search features (all the tag features)

>>So don't be a Neanderthal. Get your anthropology straight. Call it a shelf or something. Make it graphically distinct.

I'm not strong on antropology, but I don't think organizing data was a priority for Neanderthals.  
Did they actually use notes, notebooks and tags? 
It's conceivable they had shelfs
Does this have any connection to Evernote?

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Not looking to start (or resume) the whole tags vs hierarchy debate,  but Evernote have never shown any sign that they are considering changing their view on this.  That bird,  as far as we know has flown, despite the ongoing lobby to the contrary.

Plus I do work with hierarchical systems dealing with (for instance) technical faults,  and the fix for one fault may easily be the same for several others.  In many structured filing systems there's no single 'obvious' place to store information.  In a flat tagged system,  the single solution can be tagged with all the cases to which it refers.

(It is extremely bad practice to duplicate anything,  from addresses to fixes,  because these things are dynamic - and when they change,  can you be sure you got all the instances in which they appear?)

I totally sympathize with anyone who finds the tag system frustrating and unworkable (I was there myself for some months),  but while it sounds unhelpful it is a fact that to use this app,  that's the system that is in place.  If you need something different,  there are alternative systems...

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10 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Tags are not, in my opinion, a way of organising notes. They create links between notes that wouldn't normally be together, to aid searching and finding notes. They aren't for organisation, they're for finding organisationally separate notes.

Bad start, right there: your opinion notwithstanding, tags are a de facto way of organizing notes, conceptally identical to keywords, labels, and categories. How is "creating links between notes" (your definition, mind) not an organizational method? Show me a definition of 'organization' that excludes what tags do. Indeed, tags are great for categorization, a very powerful organizational concept that recognizes that not all of the objects of interest (notes) belong to exactly one spot in a hierarchy. Notes don't have to live in the same notebook to be organized.

10 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Ideally, from the way Evernote is set up, you should organise your notes with notebooks and add extra tags to aid searching/finding. That's a brilliant system, because it combines structure and flexibility.

Or you could have one big notebook, and just organize using tags. There's no one ideal here, there are only better or worse ways that work for specific use cases.

10 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

But the weird thing in Evernote's 'answer' is that it creates conflict between notebooks and tags: use tags, they say, for hierarchy. That nearly destroys the purpose of notebooks, which are very structured (a note can only exist in one notebook, while it can have multiple tags). 

There is *zero* conflict between notebooks and tags.You can use tags to create hierarchy, for sure, but you don't need to (I don't). Regardless, Evernote notebooks are useful in and of themselves as designating discrete collections of notes for sharing, or for keeping on a mobile device. And tag hierarchy doesn't destroy anything about notebooks; indeed they can cut across rigid notebook divisions. I can organize (identify, categorize) notes that belong together in different notebooks.

Notebooks, stacks, and tags are conceptually both filters on your note collection. The difference is that while a note belongs to exactly one notebook (and hence zero or one stack), it can have multiple tags. Aside from that, you can filter your notes by a notebook, a stack (multiple notebooks) or a set of tag, thus enabling you to look on a subset of related notes.

Sorry, but you really haven't made your case very well (and name-checking 'Neanderthals' doesn't help you). If you dig back into what tags are and can do, you should be able to come up with a good scheme to solve your stated problem:

10 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

To illustrate the problem. I have a notebook stack for work (and a bunch of others for other areas of life). I am currently writing several papers (just like many people would have several projects running at work) simultaneously for work. Each one is using a separate dataset, a separate set of experiments, separate emails, separate meetings notes. So each paper warrants several notebooks. But I can't do that unless I take the paper outside the work notebook stack and make a stack for each paper. That's a pain, because it stuffs up my organisation and makes it difficult to find my stacks in a spot where they shouldn't be.

How about:

One notebook per paper. Tags: 'Dataset', 'Email', 'Experiment', 'Meeting', etc. One note per dataset, email, experiment, or meeting. Reuse the same tags across papers. When you want to work on a paper, select its notebook. You see all of its notes.

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I wasn't intending to revive the debate (I withdraw the Neanderthal remark), but thanks for the comments. I would like Evernote to add another level, so I gave my 2c. Like I said, limiting the hierarchy forces you to be organised, but I think they have got the wrong number of levels.

10 hours ago, jefito said:

How about:

One notebook per paper. Tags: 'Dataset', 'Email', 'Experiment', 'Meeting', etc. One note per dataset, email, experiment, or meeting. Reuse the same tags across papers. When you want to work on a paper, select its notebook. You see all of its notes.

 

Putting things in a notebook, then searching by tag(s) to find the subgroups is unworkable, because I can't remember every tag. I use Evernote for almost everything in my life. There would be a lot of tags.

If I organise things by a tag hierarchy, I can't search all the notes in a top level tag easily, as I can with notebooks. If I click a top level tag, it returns all the notes below it, but if you then search, it searches all notes.

Finally, it's really easy using drag and drop to organise my notes with notebooks. But with tags, it's quite a bit harder. To move notes between tags, you have to type the tag and delete the old one. That's two steps, instead of dragging and dropping. And I also have to remember what tag it should go under (I can't use drag and drop to find where it's going), and not do a typo (it's easy to do) and file it somewhere else.

If you can show ways around these frustrations, I'd be grateful.

This is a consequence of wanting notes to only be in one location. Tags are not conducive to that end. I agree they are an organisational structure (my bad), but you've sharpened what I was trying to say:

Most notes (like most things in the universe with a name of any kind) have only one primary defining feature: Work notes are first and foremost about work, not anything else. Tags, by their nature, do not easily recognise a primary feature, although they pick up non-primary features easily and can accommodate the messiness of non-primary hierarchies. Notebooks do recognise the primary defining feature of each note. The primary feature of a note is nested, however. It has a single chain of hierarchy associated with its primariness (that's what you used to classify it as primary). If you had more than one chain, the feature wouldn't be primary, it would be ambiguous (is it classified as this or that or both?). The primary nature of a note is excellent for organisation, because it is where it is most dissimilar from everything else. Let me know if you find my reasoning faulty.

Notebooks are like taxonomy: a species can only be classified one way. Tags are like attributes: a species can have several colours. Especially in creative work, it's very helpful to do the latter. The seven major classifications of taxonomy (Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species) are enough to adequately classify all of life on earth. My question is whether the three levels in Evernote are adequate to classify everybody's notes in Evernote. To capture most of the major sources of variation in human life with the fewest possible categories, I think you need four levels (Areas of responsiblity>Roles/Projects>Role/Project parts>Information block); I don't think three is enough. If I only had work in evernote, I'd be fine - I'd have cut out one level. But I don't - I have work, family, hobbies etc. 

I suspect Evernote has run trials with different types of hierarchies, and three came out best, so I'm probably wasting my time here. But if they haven't, that's what they should do.

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14 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Most notes (like most things in the universe with a name of any kind) have only one primary defining feature

Yes, notes can have various "defining features";
some "features" could be considered primary (depends on context)

For ID'ing the notes with these features, we can use Tags and/or Notebooks
Use whatever tool or combination works best for you

I use Tags
I'm not concerned if a "feature" is primary or secondary, but I could prefix my tagnames with "Primary"

 >>I think you need four levels... I don't think three is enough. If I only had work in evernote, I'd be fine - I'd have cut out one level.  

All the levels can be represented in Evernote
Stacks/notebooks offer 2 levels; tags offer unlimited level.
(This request is asking for more levels for notebooks)

>>This is a consequence of wanting notes to only be in one location.

I can't see "location" for notes; nor a single location
I'm more comfortable with notes having one or multiple "features"

>>I can't remember every tag.

I have the same problem remembering every tag or notebook.  
I make use of the lists to aid in assignment;
also a naming standard so classes sort together alphabetically

>>I can't search all the notes in a top level tag easily, as I can with notebooks.

Top level tag search is actually an Evernote/Windows feature
I make use of wildcards, for example   tag:Budget*   gives me all my budget tags

>>Finally, it's really easy using drag and drop to organise my notes with notebooks.

Agreed.  I can drag and drop in the taglist; it adds the tag to the note, but doesn't delete tags

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2 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Notebooks are like taxonomy: a species can only be classified one way. Tags are like attributes: a species can have several colours. Especially in creative work, it's very helpful to do the latter. The seven major classifications of taxonomy (Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species) are enough to adequately classify all of life on earth.

Great example.

To your point, to achieve the most effective organization, we need BOTH Notebooks (hierarchical organization) and Tags (more like indexes than anything else).

I see no reason to berate either.

Here's an interesting article:  Tags or folders? Depends on the file. 

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14 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

I use Evernote for almost everything in my life. There would be a lot of tags.

Depends upon the use case.  I have about 400 tags across 6 notebooks with 36k notes.  My view of the world is it is key to keep tag names as simple yet representative as possible while using them to cull search results, and then use search if need be.  Not saying more levels of notebooks is a bad thing, just for some use cases they aren't needed.

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It's one thing to say that you want a notebook hierarchy, it's entirely another to claim that tags are not useful for organization.

 

13 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Putting things in a notebook, then searching by tag(s) to find the subgroups is unworkable, because I can't remember every tag. I use Evernote for almost everything in my life. There would be a lot of tags.

And yet many people, including me, do exactly that, because that's what Evernote offers for organizational facilities. You just need to understand how to use them effectively.

So first there seem to be a couple of models for tag use: one is a hierarchical model that is used like a file folder tree for navigational purposes. The second is as a mini language or vocabulary that is used to describe  notes for purposes of searching. Evernote seems better set up for the latter, but the former is also feasible. You are correct in that there's no unified hierarchical browsing starting at notebooks and moving into tags; I think that the UI could be improved there (you can also mimic that to some degree by mirroring you notebook list using tags, but that's onerous) . The latter system is the one I use, though.

As far as too many tags, I don't find that to be a problem: you just tag as you would describe a note; notes then can have multiple tags (e.g. in my world, a note might have tags "software" , "algorithm", and "C++". The UI in the search panel will help you to narrow down your tag list to tags that are applicable in the current note list context: I look in my Development notebook, then open up the tag picker. I see "algorithm" first, so I select that; the tag list narrows down, I see "C++" and click that. The tag list shrinks again, but I see the note I'm looking for, and don't need to look further.

My tag language is small, but it has combinatoric richness. I have <300 tags across two accounts, and most of them are short, simple and common. I add new ones only occasionally. Your vocabulary as an English speaker is somewhere north of 10,000 words, I'd guess,; much larger than my tag language . I never use the tag tree to navigate my notes;  frequently I can just type them in the search panel, or use the tag picker control as above.

I really, really do not like clicking up and down hierarchical structures, including file systems. Done enough of that in my life; if I can search effectively and get a result of < 10 results, I can pick things out by eye. That's my Evernote strategy.

15 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

If I organise things by a tag hierarchy, I can't search all the notes in a top level tag easily, as I can with notebooks. If I click a top level tag, it returns all the notes below it, but if you then search, it searches all notes.

The tag picker UI can help there to some degree; it would probably be nicer for some folks if it exhibited the hierarchy to facilitate that kind of navigation.

15 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

This is a consequence of wanting notes to only be in one location. Tags are not conducive to that end. I agree they are an organisational structure (my bad), but you've sharpened what I was trying to say:

Notes already exist in one location,, one notebook. That they can be found using different approaches just speaks to the power of tags. A tag isn't really a location; it's an adjective.

15 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Most notes (like most things in the universe with a name of any kind) have only one primary defining feature: Work notes are first and foremost about work, not anything else.

Strongly disagree there. Most things in the universe have multiple attributes, none of which are primary in and of themselves. What's important is context. What's primary about my C++ algorithm? Is it the "algorithm" part? The "C++" part? Depends on what I need at the time I'm searching. 

15 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Notebooks are like taxonomy: a species can only be classified one way. Tags are like attributes: a species can have several colours. Especially in creative work, it's very helpful to do the latter.

"Taxonomy" is really a general term; it doesn't just mean the biological tree of life, though that's certainly a common usage: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/taxonomy

The branch of science concerned with classification, especially of organisms; systematics.

Example sentences
Synonyms

1.1 The classification of something, especially organisms.

‘the taxonomy of these fossils’
 
More example sentences

1.2 count noun A scheme of classification.

‘a taxonomy of smells’

Regardless, biological entities can be classified in different ways: you could start with flying vs flightlessness, for example, and flesh it out to include all creatures, just in a different way. They're all just attributes (or categories, or labels, whatever). Not to mention that some of the existing categorization can be capricious/contentious (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/02/to-name-a-mockingbird/518013/). But to me, taxonomy just means a vocabulary for classification, and doesn't imply a single tree.

16 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

I suspect Evernote has run trials with different types of hierarchies, and three came out best, so I'm probably wasting my time here. But if they haven't, that's what they should do.

That's not really true. Evernote, at least in its current incarnation (that's 9 or 10 years old now) was designed with notebooks and tags. Stacks were added later on (at least a couple of years; I forget now) as a way to organize notebooks for UI purposes: a flat list of the then 100 max notebooks (now 250) isn't great to work with; they're kind of bolted on, architecturally. The earliest posts by @Dengberg in this topic speak to that.

I do understand that Evernote's system doesn't jibe with everyone's view of the world. I can't dissuade you from yours, and I don't mean to tell you not to request that Evernote support yours better. But given the current state of Evernote, I do want to help others -- if they're interested, and if possible -- in seeing how Evernote's current system can work for them, because that's what we have to work with today...

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Our brains all think in different ways. Some of us are visual learners, some kinesthetic, and others auditory. Some of us are lateral thinkers, others linear thinkers. What's my point? Humanity is diverse, and discrimination in work methods is 19th century. I need the notebook hierarchy! To me, everything is centered around notebooks, and I have 187 of them, most of them in stacks of some sort. Scrolling through my list of notebooks is tedious (yes, I can search, but sometimes scrolling is more straightforward). And what is going to happen to me when I reach that limit of 250 notebooks? 

Please, Evernote, bring in stacked notebooks for those of us that need to work this way.

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On 2018-02-16 at 9:55 AM, Kaeren said:

I need the notebook hierarchy!

Please add your vote to the request; voting buttons are at the top left corner of the discussion

>>Scrolling through my list of notebooks is tedious

I found it helps if I stick to a naming convention, including prefixing so groups sort together alphabetically.  For example, instead of Red, White, Blue; I use Colour-Red, Colour-White, Colour-Blue

>>And what is going to happen to me when I reach that limit of 250 notebooks? 

 A different discussion, but here are some alternatives

  • Upgrade your account.  Business accounts have a 10,000 Notebook limit.
  • Make use of the Tags feature; 100,000 limit.  I'm running with over 300 tags.  
    In some ways, it's just a switch in names, but there are also feature differences

Here's a link for a request to increase the limit.  Please add your vote 

 

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Simply put, I would find it very useful if Evernote could allow for a directory structure for organising notebooks and sub notebooks similar to how we can use folders and sub folders on Windows.

So for instance,  if I want to organise notes for writing a novel, I could call the main notebook 'Novel', and then have sub notebooks called 'characters', 'theme', etc.  Within 'Character'  I could then have sub-notebooks like 'David', 'Sarah', etc containing notes about those characters.

Trying to use tags seems unnecessarily complicated when a simple (and visual) structure would be so simple and effective to use.  Perhaps Evernote is simply not set up in such a way to allow this, in which case fine, but personally if if this was possible, it would really help improve an already great product.

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On 17/08/2008 at 11:37 PM, engberg said:

We don't have sub-notebooks, but you can organize tags into a hierarchy. This may allow you to set up the organizational scheme you're looking for.

There is a danger of this route, as you can easily double tag and remove tags by accident. Then you have non-tagged notes which live in an abyss. A notebook is a place, not a tag, the note lives there. 

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On 21/02/2018 at 1:58 AM, DTLow said:

 At present, Evernote only allows a two level hierarchy for Notebooks.  This is implemented by grouping notebooks into Stacks

Please add your vote to the request above.  Voting buttons are in the top left corner of the discussion 

>>if I want to organise notes for writing a novel, I could call the main notebook 'Novel', and then have sub notebooks called 'characters', 'theme', etc.  Within 'Character'  I could then have sub-notebooks like 'David', 'Sarah', etc containing notes about those characters.

A work-around is to use a standard naming convention; for example

  • Novel
  • Novel - Characters
  • Novel - Characters - David
  • Novel - Characters - Sarah
  • Novel - Theme

 

Surely from that, the UI can break that into notebooks. Whether or not they are saved like that on the back end no-one cares. 

When GMail first had labels, they were flat too. Then there was a GMail labs feature which would convert labels named "Novel/Characters" into a Novel and Characters subfolder within the UI. The label was exactly the same and on non supporting clients that's how it was shown. It is just a UI representation, not a whole design change. 

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@SirPPingTon, what you are discovering is something that many of us have long since discovered:  A request for nested folders here elicits two classes of responses.  First, there are  people who explain in great detail that tags are a workaround for the application's deficient design.  Second, there are responses from fan-boys and Evernote employees to the effect that the application does not have nested folders and that Evernote has never shown the slightest inclination to fix the problem, so you can just forget about it.  Neither class of responders has the slightest interest in the merits of the argument.  IOW, we are wasting our time.

I'm still subscribed to this thread, I guess for the amusement of seeing the little operetta replayed from time to time.  Or maybe I am subconsciously optimistic.  I dunno.

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9 hours ago, SirPPingTon said:

There is a danger of this route, as you can easily double tag and remove tags by accident. Then you have non-tagged notes which live in an abyss. A notebook is a place, not a tag, the note lives there. 

So live in the abyss no longer: finding your untagged notes is easy: -tag:* 

There's no danger in double tagging; in fact that's extremely useful. And to reinforce @Dengberg's point, with this ability, a note can reside in two separate hierarchies without anything exploding.

14 minutes ago, Flier said:

Evernote has never shown the slightest inclination to fix the problem, so you can just forget about it.  Neither class of responders has the slightest interest in the merits of the argument.  IOW, we are wasting our time.

In fact, I'd say that Evernote hasn't really shown much interest in even accepting that this is a problem. I think that the issue is pretty well understood, even by us fanboys, but changing the Evernote design is not up to us non-employees. The design is the design, sufficient for some, and yes, deficient for others. Big deal. I don't waste my time hanging around OneNote forums yelling at them because their design doesn't work for me. I have found Evernote's design useful, and might work for others, which is why workarounds are offered...

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1 hour ago, Flier said:

elicits two classes of responses.

There's a third response class, illustrated by your post   BooHoo :(

>>slightest interest in the merits of the argument

To indicate your support for the request, please use the voting buttons  in the top left corner of the discussion

If you're interested is organization solutions, review the posts

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10 hours ago, SirPPingTon said:

Surely from that, the UI can break that into notebooks. Whether or not they are saved like that on the back end no-one cares. 

That's an interesting idea.  I have seen UI's that group data in the list

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PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.

This is the sole reason I have not adopted Evernote, even though I have attempted to use it multiple times over recent years.

I have wasted hours trying to use it the way Evernote wants me to, trying to design tags, trying to label folders in such a way as to tier them.  I have spent hours researching other people's hacks to make Evernote do something like this; and trying to find plug-ins or shells that might do it.  I have tried (and failed) to use Evernote in conjunction with MS OneNote and with several task managers like Asana, ToDoist, etc.  I have tried tools that port from Evernote to another app including TaskClone and IFTTT.  Nothing has worked for me.  

Evernote needs infinitely nested notebooks and infinitely nested folders.  No two ways about it.

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14 hours ago, Shellah said:

Evernote needs infinitely nested notebooks and infinitely nested folders.  No two ways about it.

To indicate your support for this request, use the voting buttons at the top left corner of the discussion.

Evernote does not have a folders element.
If you can accept a different name, Evernote has Notebooks and Tags.
A new element  Spaces is currently being rolled out.

No Nested Notebooks, however notebooks can be collected in a Stack.  So, a 2 level hierarchy.

The Tag elementary has infinite hierarchy (Mac/Win).  I use this feature for tag organization

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14 hours ago, Shellah said:

I have wasted hours trying to use it the way Evernote wants me to, trying to design tags, trying to label folders in such a way as to tier them.  I have spent hours researching other people's hacks to make Evernote do something like this;

I agree with you -- Evernote needs to provide us with hierarchical Notebooks/SubNotebooks.

But, until they do, I have found a system that works almost as good.  I don't know if this is one of the methods you have already explored, but you might take a look to see if it will work for you:

See Using Tags as Pseudo Notebooks (pNB)  

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3 minutes ago, JMichaelTX said:

agree with you -- Evernote needs to provide us with hierarchical Notebooks/SubNotebooks.

But, until they do, I have found a system that works almost as good.  I don't know if this is one of the methods you have already explored, but you might take a look to see if it will work for you:

Thanks, yes, I tried that. Not serviceable. 

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On 2018-03-02 at 7:43 AM, Shellah said:

I tried that. Not serviceable.

Can you provide more details?

One issue I found with a tag work-around is that the hierarchy is not displayed on our mobile devices.
We've gone from a two level stack/notebook hierarchy, to no hierarchy

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6 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Can you provide more details?

Since multi-level nested folders and nested notebooks has been requested by hundreds of users over several years, I don't think there's much more I can add.  If you are a person who thinks in hierarchies, then you, like me, literally experience a vertigo when looking at all your notes and notebooks in the Evernote product.   Evernote is basically your very own mini-World Wide Web. You ask for (search, filter) for what you want and call it up.  But you have to already know what you want.  It is useless for organizing or project management as it is.  There is no structure to organize it.  It is only for storage and retrieval. Imagine you were intent on logically, methodically carrying out projects using *all* the information on the entire web.  You would go bonkers without organizing the whole web into tiered folders like a folder tree on a Windows PC folder directory.  That is the point of organizing Evernote with such a structure.

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" A new element  Spaces is currently being rolled out. "

Quite funny, actually. Now they have a three-level limited on nested folders instead of just two.  Maybe in a few months they will invent a four-level hierarchy, etc.  Clearly they know this lack of folder hierarchy is a problem, but they persist in adding kludges instead of just biting the bullet and doing what they should have done in the first place.  The underlying code must be a such a gawdawful mess that they don't dare touch it.

I mostly use Evernote for random web clips.  Anything that needs organization stays either in my email reader's folder hierarchy or in the Windows folder system.  Kind of a PITA to have two sets of folders relating to the same subject but that's the best I can do given EN's limitations.

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16 minutes ago, Shellah said:

I don't think there's much more I can add.(re:  I tried that. Not serviceable)

I understand the need for organizationhierarchy; I actually was looking for details on the serviceable part

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On 2018-03-02 at 8:11 AM, Flier said:

Now they have a three-level limited on nested folders instead of just two. (re: Spaces)

I'm actually seeing Spaces as an aternative to Stacks.  We still have two levels for notebooks

The Stacks objective is to organize notebooks into distinct groups
The Spaces objective was related to sharing and collaboration

>>adding kludges instead of just biting the bullet and doing what they should have done in the first place.

The Stacks feature was added to organize Notebooks into collections;
And yes, the implementation was a kludge - the underlying code is messy
I don't 
think Evernote has ever acknowledged there is a need for notebook hierarchy

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7 minutes ago, Shellah said:

If you are a person who thinks in hierarchies, then you, like me, literally experience a vertigo when looking at all your notes and notebooks in the Evernote product.   Evernote is basically your very own mini-World Wide Web. You ask for (search, filter) for what you want and call it up.  But you have to already know what you want.  It is useless for organizing or project management as it is.  There is no structure to organize it.

I understand and feel your pain.  However, I have found that Pseudo Notebooks (tags) can work just like hierarchical Notebooks.  Did you read the topic I linked to above?  It explains all this in detail with examples.  If you have a question about pNBs, please post in that topic/thread.

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26 minutes ago, Shellah said:

Evernote is basically your very own mini-World Wide Web. You ask for (search, filter) for what you want and call it up.  But you have to already know what you want.  It is useless for organizing or project management as it is.  There is no structure to organize it.  It is only for storage and retrieval. Imagine you were intent on logically, methodically carrying out projects using *all* the information on the entire web.  You would go bonkers without organizing the whole web into tiered folders like a folder tree on a Windows PC folder directory.  That is the point of organizing Evernote with such a structure.

The problem with your world wide web analogy is that we've already had a market experiment as it relates to hierarchy vs search on the web. Back in Yahoo's prime, it used hierarchies to categorize information on the internet. Then Google came along with a great search product and obliterated Yahoo. 

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5 minutes ago, tavor said:

The problem with your world wide web analogy is that we've already had a market experiment as it relates to hierarchy vs search on the web. Back in Yahoo's prime, it used hierarchies to categorize information on the internet. Then Google came along with a great search product and obliterated Yahoo. 

Well, that is the issue in a nutshell.  Evernote has a search tool and no organizing tool.  I can't use Evernote until I can organize it with nested notebooks and folders several levels deep.  Thank you.

 

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1 hour ago, Shellah said:

Evernote is basically your very own mini-World Wide Web. You ask for (search, filter) for what you want and call it up.  But you have to already know what you want.  It is useless for organizing or project management as it is.  There is no structure to organize it.  It is only for storage and retrieval

Evernote is an excellent tool for storage and retrieval; it's my digital filing cabinet

>>It is useless for organizing or project management as it is.

My need for "organizing and project management" is addressed by "excellent tool for storage and retrieval"

Can you explain your need further.

>>You would go bonkers without organizing the whole web into tiered folders like a folder tree on a Windows PC folder directory. 

Still sane after all these years.  

I haven't felt the need for "organizing the whole web into tiered folders like a folder tree".  Google's search tool is excellent for retrieval;

 

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2 hours ago, Flier said:

Now they have a three-level limited on nested folders instead of just two

Nope, still two levels just in two different places.

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3 hours ago, DTLow said:

I don't think Evernote has ever acknowledged there is a need for notebook hierarchy

There is a need for notebook hierarchy. :)

We're working on it. We're first starting with Spaces as the highest level container, and have intentions to add layers down - we recognize that hierarchy is important, especially for teams (it's almost impossible to find something someone else has added if you don't allow for some level of organization). We're also looking into how we can bring Spaces into non-business tiers. These changes aren't easy though. I'd love to hear more from you if you have specific use cases and needs (whether for hierarchy, or for Spaces in your non-business use). PM me.

In the meantime I've seen users be productive by simulating notebook hierarchies by using prefixes. E.g.

Space A

  • Category A - NB 1
  • Category A - NB 2
  • Cat B - NB 3
  • Cat B - NB 4

Replace Space with Stacks if you're not a business user.

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1 hour ago, Leo Gong said:

it's almost impossible to find something someone else has added if you don't allow for some level of organization

Thanks for contributing to the discussion

This "find something" is the same issue faced by all users, not just teams

Up to now (pre-Spaces), my only sharing tool was Notebooks, and usually just a single Notebook
I've been instructing my teams to use tags and searches.  With the shared notebook, I provided a master document describing the specific tags and searches to be used

As mentioned by others;

  • If I'm going to organize by notebook, the 250 limit won't work. The tag limit (100,000) looks good
  • Also, as per tags; the relationship is parent/child.  We don't need names for each level
  • Also as per tags: remove the restrictions in searches.  We need to include multiple notebook entries, and negation
  • Also, allow multiple notebooks per 
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"There is a need for notebook hierarchy. :) We're working on it."       Hallelujah!

Thank you, Leo.  I knew there was a reason I remained to subscribed to this apparently-fruitless thread all these years.

"We're first starting with Spaces as the highest level container, and have intentions to add layers down - we recognize that hierarchy is important, especially for teams (it's almost impossible to find something someone else has added if you don't allow for some level of organization). We're also looking into how we can bring Spaces into non-business tiers. These changes aren't easy though. I'd love to hear more from you if you have specific use cases and needs (whether for hierarchy, or for Spaces in your non-business use). PM me."

I'll just answer in the thread:  There is no need to reinvent the wheel here.  Nested folders have been around forever and all you have to do is to implement in EN the nested folder paradigm that you have been using your entire computing life.  Ditch the arcane names like "spaces," "stacks," etc. and resist the temptation to add more of them. They are not just superfluous, they can become confusing.  If, for marketing reasons, you need to have a zippy name for the top level folders beneath the root that is tolerable but please don't go further than that.

For "cases and needs" you probably need to look no further than the data you have stored on your own computer.  This thread has many examples as well.  I will defer to the tag mavens to consider if and/or how tags should be applied to folders.  It seems logical to me given the "taggish" style of Evernote but whether the folder tag name space should be separate from the folder tag name space, I don't know.  There are probably other issues and  considerations as well.

Dare I ask for an estimated release date?

 

 

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43 minutes ago, Leo Gong said:

We're working on it. We're first starting with Spaces as the highest level container, and have intentions to add layers down - we recognize that hierarchy is important, especially for teams (it's almost impossible to find something someone else has added if you don't allow for some level of organization). We're also looking into how we can bring Spaces into non-business tiers.

Wow!  That is awesome, and a first!  ?

44 minutes ago, Leo Gong said:

I'd love to hear more from you if you have specific use cases and needs (whether for hierarchy, or for Spaces in your non-business use).

Thanks for asking.

To start with, could you please give EN Mac the same feature EN Win has that allows a Search for a Parent Tag to auto-include all notes that have tags that are Child Tags of that Parent (but not the Parent Tag itself).  Since this is already implemented for EN Win I would hope it would not be too difficult for EN Mac.  BTW, EN Win requires you to change a setting in Options.  It would be much preferred to allow for this option as part of the Search Grammar/Syntax.  Maybe something like tag:MyTopTag+ would work, where the +  means to auto-include any child tags.

Of course, when you actually provide for hierarchical Notebooks, then I'd like the same:  A Search with a Parent NB would (optionally) include Notes in its SubNotebooks.

I think this should be obvious, but when you support hierarchical NBs, then we are going to need many, many more NBs than 200.  Hopefully you could support the same number of NB as you do Tags (100,000), which is effectively unlimited.

A primary use case for hierarchical NBs is Project > SubProjects > Tasks > SubTasks.

Here is a great reference that speaks to the need for both tags and hierarchical folders (NBs):  Tags or folders? 

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25 minutes ago, Flier said:

Dare I ask for an estimated release date?

You should definitely ask but I dare not give you an answer... :lol: Beyond we're working on it. It's going to take a while though. First step is looking into Spaces for personal...

Thanks for the input re: more notebook hierarchy. They're noted, we'll definitely have to reconsider the limit on notebooks for instance. For business users, with Spaces we've tried to increase / remove limits. E.g. There used to be a 500 joined NB limit - NBs you have access to via a Space are excluded from this limit for instance. We'll look into other limits as we roll out more parts of the roadmap.

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1 hour ago, Flier said:

"There is a need for notebook hierarchy. :) We're working on it."       Hallelujah!

Thank you, Leo.  I knew there was a reason I remained to subscribed to this apparently-fruitless thread all these years.

"...

I'll just answer in the thread:  There is no need to reinvent the wheel here.  Nested folders have been around forever and all you have to do is to implement in EN the nested folder paradigm that you have been using your entire computing life. 

 

 

HALLELUJAH!!! IN ALL CAPS!

Just make it work like a basic Windows folder tree (directory) with infinite nesting levels.  Nothing fancy.  That's been around forever and that's how hierarchical brains are wired.  

 

 

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On 1/5/2016 at 2:20 PM, JMichaelTX said:

Tags can be organized in hierarchies (meaning Parent-Child relationship).  So we can achieve the appearance of Notebooks and sub-notebooks,

Yes, but...

  • Tag hierarchies are not implemented on iOS, so they become useless there as a substitute for a notebook hierarchy.
  • It is not possible, I think, to create a new tag already nested under another, so creating a tag hierarchy is laborious.
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17 minutes ago, jeffsf said:

Yes, but...

  • Tag hierarchies are not implemented on iOS, so they become useless there as a substitute for a notebook hierarchy.
  • It is not possible, I think, to create a new tag already nested under another, so creating a tag hierarchy is laborious.

Confirmed, tag hierarchies are not represented in IOS, and also don't appear in all menus on Win/Mac.

I suspect it will be the same if a notebook hierarchy is implemented.

Still, I find the tag hierarchy page (Mac) useful for organization my tags.

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On 1/5/2016 at 1:20 PM, JMichaelTX said:

Using Tags as Pseudo Notebooks

My knowledge of how to use Tags continues to evolve.  This has been largely due to limitations Evernote has placed on Notebooks.

So, the question is:  How does one make the best use of the tool they have?

Notebooks (NB) are limited to 250.  Tags are virtually unlimited at 100,000.    Tags can have a hierarchical structure of Parent Tag / Child Tag, much like the folders that you see on your computer.
 
So, if we can model NBs as Tags, then we can effectively have unlimited NBs and sub-NBs.  One of the most appealing features of Notebooks (and folders) is how they visually appear.  But what if we can do the same visual layout with Tags?  Stay tuned to learn how.
 
I use tags in two fundamentally different ways:
  1. Pseudo Notebooks -- use in place of where you would normally use a notebook.  This includes sub-notebooks.
  2. Note Categorization -- traditional use of tags to categorize the entity, which can have multiple tags.  Can be used across Notebooks, or in this case, across pseudo NBs.
Using Tags as Pseudo Notebooks
 
Tags can be organized in hierarchies (meaning Parent-Child relationship).  So we can achieve the appearance of Notebooks and sub-notebooks,
 
Without going into a lot of detail at this point, I have created a number of Tags which serve as pseudo Notebooks.   Note that all of the pseudo NBs, actually tags, all have a prefix of ".NB.", which makes it easy to identify which tags are pseudo NBs, and will cause them to appear at the top of the Tag list.
 
One great advantage of using tags as pseudo NBs, is that you can assign multiple pseudo NBs to the same Note.  Can't do that with actual NBs.  Each Note can belong to only one NB.  So this allows me, for example, to assign multiple pseudo NBs of .NB.IT, .NB.Business, and .NB.Personal to the same Note, which is the asset record for a new Mac, used in both business and personal activities.  Now when I search or filter on any of the 3 pseudo NBs it will find the asset record of my Mac.
 
I now have all of my pseudo NBs that appear at the top of my Tag list, and the pseudo NBs can, and do, have sub-pseudo NBs.  Here's an example:
 
EN-Mac-6.3-Pseudo-NBs.png.a04a1800aadfb467f67ab7f7c4956c19.png
 
As a result, I now have a need for ONLY 3 main Notebooks, plus any Notebooks needed for sharing or mobile offline use:
 
EN-Mac-6.3-NBs.png.f9de1465cff90a888dd0a2964742ca68.png
 
Please feel free to post any questions or comments.
 
EDIT:  Mon, Feb 29, 2016 at 12:36:27 PM CST
For more discussion on pseudo notebooks, 

Agreed.  Technically as you've described a "pseudo notebook" is simply a label.
In fact, technically, any folder hierarchy is simply a set of labels in a directory.
The only difference is that labels/tags permit multiple membership. so in the end Tags is a much more flexible mechanism.

You can "move" a whole set of notes to a different notebook by retagging them, OR have them show up in a different notebook by adding a new tag.

Some people visualize best as folders others prefer to search for a tag. I do both.
See ALL the notes in a category and know it's all of them (archival)
Fastest path to my note on a topic. (targeted search)

Gmail is an excellent and widely understood implementation of "folders as labels" that demonstrates these principles well, and has implemented search, folders and tagging quite effectively.

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On 2/16/2018 at 9:55 AM, Kaeren said:

Our brains all think in different ways. Some of us are visual learners, some kinesthetic, and others auditory. Some of us are lateral thinkers, others linear thinkers. What's my point? Humanity is diverse, and discrimination in work methods is 19th century. I need the notebook hierarchy! To me, everything is centered around notebooks, and I have 187 of them, most of them in stacks of some sort. Scrolling through my list of notebooks is tedious (yes, I can search, but sometimes scrolling is more straightforward). And what is going to happen to me when I reach that limit of 250 notebooks? 

Please, Evernote, bring in stacked notebooks for those of us that need to work this way.

True. The fundamental problem is a failure to see the abstraction between information organization and information representation.  As @DTLow and @JMichaelTX and others have pointed out, the underlying implementation of any organizational mechanism is labeled objects. A Directory is set of labels to files, and if the structure of the labels allows only one parent, it is a TREE. If the structure allows more than one parent it is a GRAPH. Period. That's it. It's that simple. First year CS class teaches you this. 

Without an abstraction between the underlying implementation and the way information is presented, we all get stuck in this unresolvable vortex of ideas. 

WITH an abstraction, the implementation can focus on data integrity, back-up, performance, security (still an important matter - I don't want MY tagged notes showing up in YOUR tag search).

And the presentation layer can be anything people need. You can change the UI without calling on the back-end developers, whose jobs are overwhelmed solving those much harder problems.  Third parties can change the representation layer.  So we can have folders, hierarchical folders, colored folders, tags, stacks, notebooks, nested notebooks, or whatever kind of representation works for all the people who, as you've rightly pointed out, think differently.

I used to work in accessibility.  Try thinking of all the problems we've discussed about Evernote, from the perspective of a blind user who's SOLE interface is to the have the title of each notebook read to them, and then either enter or move to the next, and you will appreciate that YES people have DIFFERENT NEEDS.

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Great summary of the problem @mtanne! 

Evernote could even give users a choice of the number of notebook levels they want in the settings. That way, people who like the current three levels don't have anything to worry about, and everybody's happy. There is a way to sort out this 10-year-old issue.

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17 minutes ago, Feanor33 said:

That way, people who like the current three levels don't have anything to worry about, and everybody's happy.

Three levels?  I'm only seeing Stacks > Notebooks

>>Evernote could even give users a choice of the number of notebook levels they want in the settings.

I'd go with the above request; nested notebooks/subnotebooks; i.e. an infinite hierarchy

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20 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Three levels?  I'm only seeing Stacks > Notebooks

I think of it in three levels, Stacks > Notebooks > Notes. However you count it, we're talking about the same thing.

So the point of my post doesn't get lost: Evernote could give users a choice of the number of notebook levels they want in the settings. 

21 minutes ago, DTLow said:

I'd go with the above request; nested notebooks/subnotebooks; i.e. an infinite hierarchy

Sure. That could be an option in settings. But some people seem to like the current setup (as this thread shows), so why not keep them happy?

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1 hour ago, mtanne said:

In fact, technically, any folder hierarchy is simply a set of labels in a directory.
The only difference is that labels/tags permit multiple membership. so in the end Tags is a much more flexible mechanism.

Perhaps it is a matter of semantics, but in the macOS, tags, and before them, labels, refer only to the object(s) that have that tag/label. Deleting a tag has no effect of the object it was assigned to.  Whereas actions such as delete and move of the folder will affect all items in that folder.  Most systems do NOT have tag hierarchies like Evernote.  In Evernote, if I do a search on a tag, it returns only the Notes that have that tag.  The search results do NOT include Notes that have tags which do NOT have that tag, but do have child tags of that tag.

Folders (Notebooks) are containers.  So if I delete, or move, a folder, it applies to all of its contents down to the lowest item in the hierarchy.  Whereas, if I delete a tag, nothing happens to the object which has that tag.  The folder, and all of its contents continue to exists.

Regardless of whether it is how the UI is constructed, or how the underlying data structures are defined, the notions of "folder" vs "tag" have long been quite different.

As you noted, an object can have many tags, but only one folder.  This is a very important distinction.  So folders have two very important differences from tags:

  1. They are containers of every object (subfolders and files) within them.
  2. An object can belong to one and only one folder.

As I have said many times, we need both folders and tags, or for Evernote, we need both Notebooks and Tags.  Each serve a vital purpose that cannot be 100% fulfilled by the other.

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1 hour ago, JMichaelTX said:

As I have said many times, we need both folders and tags, or for Evernote, we need both Notebooks and Tags.  Each serve a vital purpose that cannot be 100% fulfilled by the other.

The other vital feature for hierarchical thinkers, along with the need for many (many) levels of nested folders is the ability to reorder the sequence of folders and notes, preferably with drag and drop.  Right now Evernote forces sorting alphabetically or by date created or by date modified, etc.  Without that, the user has to craft and constantly modify some naming scheme like 1a-First Note, 1b-Second Note, 1c-Last Note, 2a-Do Later Note, 2b-A Reference Note to order things in the way he/she is thinking of the sequence.

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On 3/2/2018 at 4:41 PM, Leo Gong said:

You should definitely ask but I dare not give you an answer... :lol: Beyond we're working on it. It's going to take a while though. First step is looking into Spaces for personal...

Thanks for the input re: more notebook hierarchy. They're noted, we'll definitely have to reconsider the limit on notebooks for instance. For business users, with Spaces we've tried to increase / remove limits. E.g. There used to be a 500 joined NB limit - NBs you have access to via a Space are excluded from this limit for instance. We'll look into other limits as we roll out more parts of the roadmap.

The other vital feature for hierarchical thinkers, along with the need for many (many) levels of nested folders is the ability to reorder the sequence of folders and notes, preferably with drag and drop.  Right now Evernote forces sorting alphabetically or by date created or by date modified, etc.  Without that, the user has to craft and constantly modify some naming scheme like 1a-First Note, 1b-Second Note, 1c-Last Note, 2a-Do Later Note, 2b-A Reference Note to order things in the way he/she is thinking of the sequence.

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On 3/3/2018 at 9:45 AM, DTLow said:

Confirmed, tag hierarchies are not represented in IOS, and also don't appear in all menus on Win/Mac.

I suspect it will be the same if a notebook hierarchy is implemented.

Still, I find the tag hierarchy page (Mac) useful for organization my tags.

Yes, I also find tags useful. The main utility of tags is for cross referencing and to make searches easier. However, the nested tags can add another layer of utility. The issues with that are [1] the afore-mentioned failure to implement them on iOS and [2] the laboriousness of organizing them. With folders, one creates a folder inside another folder and puts the desired info in it. With tags, one creates a tag in the master list, then drags it across all the other tags to the appropriate master tag, then does a search for appropriate notes, which may be hard to find because they are not yet organized, then tags them. It's doable, but much less convenient. If one uses tags as a cross-reference and search tool, there are likely to be many of them, making them harder to browse. Also, there is no hierarchy in the pull-down menu at the top of the notes list, as there is for stacks and notebooks. One has to switch from notes to tags to browse the tags, so one goes back and forth, back and forth. All this churn makes Evernote more difficult to use. If there were hierarchical folders built into the interface, life would be so much easier. 

All that said, it is enormously encouraging to see a sign that Evernote is no longer stonewalling on this issue. So we can live in hope.

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On 3/5/2018 at 5:17 PM, mtanne said:

Agreed.  Technically as you've described a "pseudo notebook" is simply a label.
In fact, technically, any folder hierarchy is simply a set of labels in a directory.
The only difference is that labels/tags permit multiple membership. so in the end Tags is a much more flexible mechanism.

You can "move" a whole set of notes to a different notebook by retagging them, OR have them show up in a different notebook by adding a new tag.

Some people visualize best as folders others prefer to search for a tag. I do both.
See ALL the notes in a category and know it's all of them (archival)
Fastest path to my note on a topic. (targeted search)

Gmail is an excellent and widely understood implementation of "folders as labels" that demonstrates these principles well, and has implemented search, folders and tagging quite effectively.

Good explanation. I have done much the same, and then, because the remaining tags are still many in number, I have organized them into alpha master tags. All the tags that begin with the letter A are under a master AAA tag, those that begin with B under a master BBB tag, and so on. Your approach is creative and, as you say, makes the best use of the tool we have. Still, one can hope for a future when the hierarchy is built into the system rather than created by the users as an add-on.

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On 18.8.2008 at 12:37 AM, engberg said:

... you can organize tags into a hierarchy. ...

Nice to hear from an Evenote Employee - does this mean that this feature will be available in Business environments soon? ;-)

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1 hour ago, jeffsf said:

All that said, it is enormously encouraging to see a sign that Evernote is no longer stonewalling on this issue. So we can live in hope.

 

1 hour ago, Eldorado said:

Nice to hear from an Evenote Employee - does this mean that this feature will be available in Business environments soon? ;-)

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.  I've seen no indication from Evernote that they're interested in implementing a Notebook hierarchy.

Evernote did implement tag hierarchy (Win/Mac/Web) for Personal Accounts, but not on the Business side.

 

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5 minutes ago, DTLow said:

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.  I've seen no indication from Evernote that they're interested in implementing a Notebook hierarchy.

 

See Leon Gong's response to you last week (3/2).

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On 2018-03-11 at 12:34 PM, Flier said:

See Leon Gong's response to you last week (3/2).

It would have been nice if you added a link.  I found the post Here

Leon, an Evernote employee stated that Evernote was looking into adding some additional levels similar to the Stacks feature.  They've actually.implemented Spaces.

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On 3/5/2018 at 9:10 PM, Feanor33 said:

Sure. That could be an option in settings. But some people seem to like the current setup (as this thread shows), so why not keep them happy?

Why would this be a setting? People who don't want nested notebooks (me, for one) just wouldn't nest them. Is there a Windows/Mac/Linux setting that limits the depth of your file system? This would just be wasted & confusing UI.

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On 3/11/2018 at 12:26 PM, DTLow said:

 

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.  I've seen no indication from Evernote that they're interested in implementing a Notebook hierarchy.

Evernote did implement tag hierarchy (Win/Mac/Web) for Personal Accounts, but not on the Business side.

 

See https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/96180-nesting-multiple-notebooks-creating-sub-notebooks/?do=findComment&comment=496455

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3 hours ago, dawa68 said:

Directory like structure would be very good - at least one more level

 

3 hours ago, dawa68 said:

Yes Directory like structure would be great - at least 2 subdirectory Levels and not one

This implementing of levels seems like a bandaid solution.
- Note: Evernote already implemented one level (Stacks).  
Before long, users request another level; how long before requesting another level; then another level; then another ...

The implementation should be a parent/child hierarchy.  
- Note: Evernote already implemented this for the Tags feature (Win/Mac/Web)

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Clearly some find tags adequate. I like them, but they don't meet the need for sub-notebooks. The absence of sub-notebooks is my only continuing frustration with the otherwise excellent product. I don't understand the reluctance to allow this improvement. Those who are content with their tags will be unaffected. The large group of us who want the sub-notebooks will then also be contented.

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On 2018-03-25 at 8:03 AM, chrisalbertyn said:

I don't understand the reluctance to allow this improvement.

Welcome to the discussion.

Adding a notebook hierarchy requires an overhaul of the database design

Evernote seems reluctant to take on this workload.  Instead they implemented the Stack feature; which is only a 2 level hierarchy.

>>tags ... don't meet the need for sub-notebooks.

I'm not seeing proof of this, just that some users need the tags feature be called something different - like folders.  I think they would then find the feature more acceptable.

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13 minutes ago, DTLow said:

 ... I'm not seeing proof of this ...

Maybe I missed reading the rule book.  Are others required to prove to you that their viewpoints are valid?  FWIW I am not seeing any proof here that your endlessly repeated tag workarounds to the folder problem are anything but that:  workarounds.  And clumsy ones at that.

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3 hours ago, Flier said:

Are others required to prove to you that their viewpoints are valid?

It's not a requirement, but works well to convince others, and Evernote.

>>tag workarounds to the folder problem are anything but that:  workarounds.  And clumsy ones at that.

Not clear on the details for the "folder problem".  In Evernote, notes have two attributes, notebooks and tags.  If it helps, use either attribute as the folder

There are  none so blind, as those who will not see.

 

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4 minutes ago, Flier said:

Yeah.  Agreed.  I don't know which is more impressive, his arrogance or the amount of free time he has available to spend on posting the same comments, over and over.  and over.  and over.

Re "I am not interested in boohoo posts."  Is that also a requirement , that your highness be interested in every post?  Or that someone cares whether you are interested or not?  ROFL.

:)

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3 hours ago, Shellah said:

I don't know which is more impressive

Thanks for the recognition.  I'm one of the group helping the userbase in these forums.  I've had much experience with computers as a programmer/developer and have been using Evernote from the beginning.  I started with Windows devices, then switched to Macs.  I'm retired so I have more time for helping and answering questions.

>>posting the same comments, over and over.  and over.  and over.

It does get repetitive as new users come on board asking the same questions.  I can understand if you don't wish to participate.

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It's probably been mentioned here before,  so sorry if this old news but Evernote is widening the goalposts a bit with 'Spaces' -

ONLY available in Evernote Business Beta so far,  but with (they say) intentions to spread to other packages - and 'spaces' can contain notebooks,  notes,  pinned announcements... 

A lot of very general information is available via their post,  but it may be that this is Evernote's (partial?) answer to hierarchies.  Actual practical use unknown as yet until we all get a chance to play with the nuts and bolts of the operation,  and it sounds like a typical Evernote feature in that 'spaces' are open to be used in whatever way best suits your situation;  there's no (AFAICS) pre-defined structure.  Your spaces are what you make of them. 

Sorry that's vague - read the blurb and see what you think!

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On 21.02.2018 at 5:58 AM, DTLow said:

>>if I want to organise notes for writing a novel, I could call the main notebook 'Novel', and then have sub notebooks called 'characters', 'theme', etc.  Within 'Character'  I could then have sub-notebooks like 'David', 'Sarah', etc containing notes about those characters.

A work-around is to use a standard naming convention; for example

This workaround makes the list of notebooks or tags look a bit too crouded and messy for me, i whould need another search engine to search through it.

I have tags 'Novel',  'David' and 'Sara' which are nested:

  • Novel
    • David
    • Sara

And in windows app I can click on 'Novel' tag and list all notes with nested tag. My question is how I can search through all notes related to the Novel, i.e. tagged with 'Novel', 'David' or 'Sara' without adding tag 'Novell' to all 'David' and 'Sara' tagged notes too.

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On 4/7/2018 at 10:07 AM, olek3a said:

My question is how I can search through all notes related to the Novel

Windows has a search-child-tags setting.  I'm not a Windows User, but I understand the setting is: Tools > Options > Note and checking "Automatically select child tags."

On a Mac, I can achieve this using a script for searches; set theTags to every tag whose parent is equal to parentTag

If you had prefixed the sub-tag names, you could use a wildcard; tag:Novel*
I prefer the prefix approach.  Tagname "David" sittling in the tag list isn't that useful

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On 4/7/2018 at 10:07 AM, olek3a said:

This workaround makes the list of notebooks or tags look a bit too crouded and messy for me, i whould need another search engine to search through it.

I have tags 'Novel',  'David' and 'Sara' which are nested:

  • Novel
    • David
    • Sara

And in windows app I can click on 'Novel' tag and list all notes with nested tag. My question is how I can search through all notes related to the Novel, i.e. tagged with 'Novel', 'David' or 'Sara' without adding tag 'Novell' to all 'David' and 'Sara' tagged notes too.

You can do as @DTLow suggests and search tag:novel, or you can do an All Any search with the three tags.  This will return any note that contains one of the three tags.

EDIT:  Mistyped the parameter the first time.

Edited by CalS
Oops.
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On 07.04.2018 at 10:03 PM, CalS said:

You can do as @DTLow suggests and search tag:novel, or you can do an All search with the three tags.  This will return any note that contains one of the three tags.

I wanted to avoid listing all three tags, because I have already specified that they are nested, and searching this way I will not be able to find notes having novel or any child or grand child tag and notification which is not complete. 

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2 hours ago, olek3a said:

I wanted to avoid listing all three tags, because I have already specified that they are nested, and searching this way I will not be able to find notes having novel or any child or grand child tag and notification which is not complete. 

My bad on the first post, it should have been the Any parameter.  IAC, in windows.  You can check Automatically select child tags in Tools - Options - Navigation.  When you select a parent tag, at whichever level, this will search for any notes in the parent tag and any of its child tags.

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I do not think that folders are blacklisted because of pride. But they are probably very very very hard to implement (based on the current internal data structure they use over many years and versions).

Within EN Business there are Spaces available - something between simple stacks and free folders. They help to maintain folder permissions (read/write access to specific team members). 

But: With EN Business they removed support of nested tags :-(
This is (in my opinion) because tags are managed outside the "normal" internal data structure and they didn't succeed to add management features for nested tags in admin console. Moreover there are global and user-local tags available that cannot be managed globally.

All in all: Their development is strictly limited because of compatibility reasons to older structures. In parallel they seem to loose experienced developers and are forced to offer nice features involved from marketing (sorry - another :-( )

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9 hours ago, x9sim9 said:

I think its clear at this point that someone within the Evernote organisation has simply refused to add this feature a long time ago and now its blacklisted.

It's clear that Evernote never implemented a hierarchy for the Notebook element.
The only element with a hierarchy is the Tag element (Mac/Win/Web)
I don't know about "blacklisting", but these are the basic building blocks of the Evernote database structure.

I'm able to work with these elements, regardless of the names.
Other users find this impossible; no real reason,  they simply don't like xxxxxx.  These people should think about using a different product that delivers what they like.
With over 200 million users, Evernote is not impacted by this negativity.

>>I don't like tags,

You don't have to "like" tags; and you don't have to use them.
I see the benefits offered by the tag feature, and make use of them.

>>...I like stacks, give the customers what they want...

Evernote implemented Stacks after customers needed a method to organize Notebooks
It looks like this will be replaced with the new Spaces feature.

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Evernote (AFAIK) have never 'refused' to entertain any feature request.  They proceed at their own pace,  and some developments take much longer than others because they're not just adding a final detail to an overall picture - implementing one small additional step means a whole section of code has to be rewritten and upgraded to work across all supported operating systems,  then rolled out to 220M users who will be a little upset (see other threads here) if even the slightest detail goes wrong.

Individual developers have suggested that the web client is being upgraded with the new Spaces feature,  which seems to answer several frequent requests - 'pinnable' notes,  shareable notebooks stacks,  and variable notebook collections.  When all those things get rolled out,  it's possible that any argument here will become moot - Evernote will have dealt with this feature request along with several others.  But developing something new* takes time.

*And I know sub-folders aren't a new concept,  but they're new to Evernote...

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20 hours ago, rocketguy said:

just letting the product team know that it is affecting your bottom line.

That may be the case,  but 1)  a new feature called Spaces is (allegedly) about to launch,  which may solve the issue,  and 2) at 220M users and counting,  I think Evernote was learning to cope without a folder structure,  at least until now...

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6 hours ago, x9sim9 said:

Create virtually nested stacks ... is stored in the backend as a single stack with the string: Stack1 :: Stack 2 :: Stack 3

Name prefixing also works with Notebooks and Tags.  
It's not hard to do, and does simulate "nesting" but sometimes the names get overly large.
The best benefit is the names sort together in an alphabetic list, so as you posted, you get the effect even if the client app doesn't support hierarchy.

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5 hours ago, x9sim9 said:

Just so you know there is a very simple way to implement this regardless of how the backend architecture of evernote was built, and would not effect backwards compatibility and would work easily across all platforms.

Create virtually nested stacks

Stack 1

-- Stack 2

-- -- Stack 3

is stored in the backend as a single stack with the string:

Stack1 :: Stack 2 :: Stack 3

older clients simply see this instead of nested stacks, and the newer clients see the stacks in a nested view

 

Its really not as hard as evernote seem to think it is...

I don't have any insight as to how hard Evernote thinks this is or not. Do you? I just know that historically they've not been interested in doing it, though that may change (there's a post elsewhere from an Evernote employee that claims that they are planning on adding nested notebooks; I'll try to find it and add the reference) .

You do need to use some sort of a user-enterable delimiter that doesn't conflict with existing usage, since ':, (as well as other punctuation characters) are already allowed in stack names. And likely some changes required to support stack searches as well (stack:MyStack).  Not very likely, but over 200 million users, definitely possible. Moreover, given nested stack trees A/B/C and 1/B/2, so is the stack 'B' the same one in both subtrees? Maybe that's not a problem. And search: if 'B' is a virtual stack as before, then a search string of "stack:B" should do..???

My take: stacks are already a hack (they're just a name attached to a notebook, and not separate entities). Your idea is clever, but it just compounds the hack, rather than Evernote just taking a big breath (and the development hit) and implementing nesting correctly.

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On 5/15/2018 at 6:16 AM, Eldorado said:

I do not think that folders are blacklisted because of pride. But they are probably very very very hard to implement (based on the current internal data structure they use over many years and versions).

Unless you are an Evernote developer, or have access to inside design documents, I don't think any of us really know how hard, or how easy, it would be to add hierarchical Notebooks to the current Evernote architecture.  However, it is unlikely to be super hard because we see this design in many other products.  OTOH, it seems to be very hard for the Evernote developers to design and implement a solid, robust Note editor.  So, who knows???  Just my 2¢.

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On 5/26/2018 at 4:12 PM, AlextheUnicat said:

There is no universal "right" way to take notes

For unlimited hierarchy, I can tell you Tags is the right way in Evernote.  It's the only element having the parent-child relationship; but only on the Mac/Win/Web platforms.

>>Hierarchy of notebooks/stacks should be a given.

Well, it's not a given in Evernote.  I'd suggest you should be reviewing a different service where it is a given.

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On 5/26/2018 at 7:12 PM, AlextheUnicat said:

>the only thing keeping from using Evernote...would prefer to use Evernote....hours and hours of experimenting...have tried tag hierarchy...the genius behind applications like Workflowy and Todoist...frankly the posts that are like "I can't see why you could possibly need this" frustrate me.....pros and cons, but that all would change if Evernote had notebook hierarchy...

 

1

AlextheUnicat, you've articulated precisely what I'm saying.  Nailed it.  Thx!  

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On 5/27/2018 at 12:12 AM, AlextheUnicat said:

the posts that are like "I can't see why you could possibly need this"

I don't think anyone has posted anything like that.  Some people seem wedded to hierarchical filing,  others are willing to adapt to tags.  Evernote -by their own choice so far- only does tags.  (Except - look at what 'Spaces' can do - that might be more your speed.)  If tags don't work for you,  it's possible you're using the wrong application. 

If anything the main argument here is like saying you love Pizza,  but you just wish they'd stop putting cheese and tomato on it because you hate the taste.  Best suggestion might be - stop buying pizza...

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