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Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks


cswsteve

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I think Evernote is a fantastic product, especially with the iPhone integration. I currently use a program called UltraRecall because of it's heavy use of subfolders. This makes organizing my data ve

I don't understand why after almost 10 years this has not been implemented yet. Also, I don't understand why workarounds such as tags are considered a good solution. Is it that complicated to add

To all Guru's that keep saying the same thing about being able to do the same thing with tag. This maybe so but is not the point.  Clearly for at least the last 9 Years people have been asking fo

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On 12/12/2020 at 6:34 PM, gazumped said:

Hierarchical folders aren't the invention of the internet - they're a reflection of how paper files were assembled in the days when offices had filing cabinets and shelving instead of terminals,  which in themselves were an interpretation of the really old days of pigeon holes and rolled parchments.  It's not a 'given' that things should be designed on that format,  but it was a design decision taken by Evernote in the early days

 

In the real world people have a hard time switching from iphone to android, windows to iOS etc., because of a few different buttons/options. You're trying to argue that changing hierarchical folders, which are used by everybody on all kind of terminals since the beggining of computers, is not a big deal for one particular app that is suppose to help you organize. Yeah, nothing in design is a 'given', but if you care about result, everything is.

 

On 12/12/2020 at 6:39 PM, DTLow said:

Wrong; Folders are a different filing method than the notebook/tag methodology used by Evernote
Users can emulate folder hierarchy by using the notebook/tag trees

No, you're wrong. As I stated in my previous comment and you failed to add to the quote, nobody cares how Evernote developers defined it in the backend. No user cares or should care. If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Looks like a folder, acts like a folder, so it is a freaking folder. From the point of view of everyone that uses it.

 

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The tree-type folder structures came with computers, and they were rooted in the file systems. There is nothing natural about it, it was how files were organized on disks, back then (and still today).

Ever searched an invoice (before filing it in EN) to claim warranty ? Where may it be - in the invoices folder, with the product documentation, at the accountant with the tax stuff, with the suppliers data etc . ? What is the natural reaction ? Copies. Which translates in IT into duplicates, the bane of all folder type structures.

Yes, EN forces you to rethink this. First, find it all by search. Second, if you want structure, use tags. If there would be deeply nested notebooks, this rethinking would not happen, and we would produce again duplicates. Which makes searching difficult (which copy is the right one ?).

My opinion: Take it, as it is, and learn to use it to its full potential.

Or switch to another app.

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5 hours ago, Tazzz said:

If it walks like a duck and quacks like a duck, it's a duck. Looks like a folder, acts like a folder, so it is a freaking folder. From the point of view of everyone that uses it.

As I said, use the the notebook/tag trees   
They pass the duck test

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4 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

The tree-type folder structures came with computers, and they were rooted in the file systems. There is nothing natural about it, it was how files were organized on disks, back then (and still today).

Ever searched an invoice (before filing it in EN) to claim warranty ? Where may it be - in the invoices folder, with the product documentation, at the accountant with the tax stuff, with the suppliers data etc . ? What is the natural reaction ? Copies. Which translates in IT into duplicates, the bane of all folder type structures.

Yes, EN forces you to rethink this. First, find it all by search. Second, if you want structure, use tags. If there would be deeply nested notebooks, this rethinking would not happen, and we would produce again duplicates. Which makes searching difficult (which copy is the right one ?).

My opinion: Take it, as it is, and learn to use it to its full potential.

Or switch to another app.

As much as I would like things to be different, your words are the only outcome. Evernote will never, ever implement this feature. Its been 12 years since this thread has started, trust me this has been discussed probably more than once by the Evernote development team.

Tags don't work for me, for many reasons already highlighted in this thread so I won't discuss them again here.

I left Evernote because of this missing feature and imported all of my notes into Nimbus Note, if you need this feature then its time consider another app. As this feature will NEVER be implemented in Evernote Ever!

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4 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

The tree-type folder structures came with computers, and they were rooted in the file systems. There is nothing natural about it, it was how files were organized on disks, back then (and still today).

Ever searched an invoice (before filing it in EN) to claim warranty ? Where may it be - in the invoices folder, with the product documentation, at the accountant with the tax stuff, with the suppliers data etc . ? What is the natural reaction ? Copies. Which translates in IT into duplicates, the bane of all folder type structures.

Yes, EN forces you to rethink this. First, find it all by search. Second, if you want structure, use tags. If there would be deeply nested notebooks, this rethinking would not happen, and we would produce again duplicates. Which makes searching difficult (which copy is the right one ?).

My opinion: Take it, as it is, and learn to use it to its full potential.

Or switch to another app.

I'm a proponent of tags, I love them and find them more useful than folders. But I don't think current EN mgmt is as committed to tags as mgmt from the Libin days. Look at how Ian Small described tag usage as a tiny niche. I cannot imagine Libin talking like that - he'd be trying to spread the gospel of tagging. And apparently v10 has moved tags to the bottom of the interface, away from the note title. And I don't think many or any of the other note apps have ever pushed tags as hard as EN has.

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I'm thinking that maybe current EN mgmt has decided EN has fought the good fight on tags, but that it's time to acknowledge that this isn't the hill to die on.

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15 minutes ago, tavor said:

 ... Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I'm thinking that maybe current EN mgmt has decided EN has fought the good fight on tags, but that it's time to acknowledge that this isn't the hill to die on.

I've been following this inadequacy for years; a few years ago there was discussion/speculation that implementing a folder system might require a rip-up and re-do in an old and often-patched bunch of code.  IOW, risky and expensvie.  Then about two (?) years ago an EN employee intimated that folders were coming, driven by their aspirations of bigger corporate business.  I have seen nothing since, however.  Maybe this big re-write they are currently engaged in will also provide this missing capability.  (@dtlow, please don't bother to comment on my view that this is a "missing capability."  I have seen all your posts.  Over. And over. And over.)

So I continue to use EN as a sort of secondary tool in my box.  I keep looking at Nimbus Notes but the Russian ownership puts me off a little bit.  And I monitor here as the debate flares every month or so.  Someday I hope to see the announcement that the problem is solved.

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28 minutes ago, Flier said:

I've been following this inadequacy for years; a few years ago there was discussion/speculation that implementing a folder system might require a rip-up and re-do in an old and often-patched bunch of code.  IOW, risky and expensvie.  Then about two (?) years ago an EN employee intimated that folders were coming, driven by their aspirations of bigger corporate business.  I have seen nothing since, however.  Maybe this big re-write they are currently engaged in will also provide this missing capability. 

I would be sad to see EN go this route as I think tags are superior, but yes, it does seem to me that EN is caving to the crowd (i.e., what all their competitors are doing, and what, according to Ian Small's claim that only 2% of users are using tags, what most of their userbase is doing).

Well, I call it caving, but I'm sure the *allegedly* 98% that don't use tags see it as sensibly responding to the userbase. In any case, I think you will get your wish.

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10 minutes ago, tavor said:

I would be sad to see EN go this route as I think tags are superior, but yes, it does seem to me that EN is caving to the crowd (i.e., what all their competitors are doing, and what, according to Ian Small's claim that only 2% of users are using tags, what most of their userbase is doing).

Well, I call it caving, but I'm sure the *allegedly* 98% that don't use tags see it as sensibly responding to the userbase. In any case, I think you will get your wish.

I don't think anyone in this endless thread has advocated ditching the tags.  Certainly not me.  Having a folder structure is an additional capability not an either/or.  I would expect to use both, but if a tagaholic wanted to stick with tags that should certainly be possible.  Actually, it's requirement due to the size of the installed base.

Confession here:  I actually don't use tags in EN.  My usage is small enough (due to the absence of folders) that simple full-text searches work just fine.

 

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8 hours ago, Flier said:

I don't think anyone in this endless thread has advocated ditching the tags. 

I get that. My concern is that by caving to the notebook mob, EN will de-emphasize tags. And indeed, that seems to be the case per Ian Smalls comment re: 2% and the rearrangement of the v10 window to put tags at the bottom. It's possible they may continue in that line and possibly eliminate nested tags, which I think is a feature many competitors do not have. For us tagaholics, nested tags is important for creating structure.

I knew that back in the Libin era when the gospel of tagging was sung from the rooftops, us tagaholics should have driven you notebook heathens out with pitchforks! Alas, we turned the other cheek, and now the notebook hordes are taking over while Small tacitly approves. The brotherhood/sisterhood of the tag is going to be overrun.*

 

 

* OK, that was perhaps a bit melodramatic, but I thought it was appropriate given the nature of this thread. 😛

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Please please please, add this feature. It is the one and only feature that is making me consider dropping my Evernote subscription and finding an alternative. It seems like a hugely popular feature. If it's never coming to Evernote, I think it would be nice to hear from someone as to why, especially considering I pay for the program every year.

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On 1/3/2021 at 3:14 PM, Red Raven said:

Please please please, add this feature. It is the one and only feature that is making me consider dropping my Evernote subscription and finding an alternative. It seems like a hugely popular feature. If it's never coming to Evernote, I think it would be nice to hear from someone as to why, especially considering I pay for the program every year.

This feature request was made in 2008, its not going to happen, move to an alternative package, and migrate all of your existing notes, I had to...

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13 minutes ago, x9sim9 said:

move to an alternative package

I'm looking at Devonthink
Great product but no Notebooks

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On 12/17/2020 at 10:52 AM, tavor said:

Maybe I'm reading too much into this, but I'm thinking that maybe current EN mgmt has decided EN has fought the good fight on tags, but that it's time to acknowledge that this isn't the hill to die on.

I’ve wondered if the reason why tags have been moved to the bottom of the window is to allow UI space at the top for displaying a future notebook tree.  Probably not, but moving the tag location must have been done for a conscious reason.

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1 minute ago, s2sailor said:

I’ve wondered if the reason why tags have been moved to the bottom of the window is to allow UI space at the top for displaying a future notebook tree.  Probably not, but moving the tag location must have been done for a conscious reason.

Per one of the recent videos, and I  paraphrase from memory "... to move the not much used tag stuff out of prime screen real estate for something else more important..."  No definition of what that something else is though.

Interesting as well.  I updated my phone to V10 before the impact was obvious, shame on me.  Tags are at the top.  Not sure what that says about adherence to a a uniform experience.  It's a bit haphazard IMO.  There may be reasons no obvious to me though.  🤷‍♂️

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On 1/3/2021 at 9:14 AM, Red Raven said:

Please please please, add this feature. It is the one and only feature that is making me consider dropping my Evernote subscription and finding an alternative. It seems like a hugely popular feature. If it's never coming to Evernote, I think it would be nice to hear from someone as to why, especially considering I pay for the program every year.

I think OneNote would suit you. please, please, please consider it and let us enjoy the freedom of tags instead of folders.

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I would really love to see this idea implemented. It would help A LOT. I would love to see concepts within notes treated as separate entities. I think this is the same as having sub notes. I want to be able to bi-link these concepts across notes and notebooks. I would also like to SEE the linked concept note /sub-note or even the note as a whole whenever I click on the link. This should appear as a side window and I should be able to edit it. 

This is a very powerful way to implement something like the zettlekasten method in Evernote. I hope I will get to see this feature someday. 

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So bizarre that Evernote has a device they created themselves for learning from their user base how to improve their product and they have ignored the #1 request for 12 years? Hard to believe that nobody with a calculator at Evernote has ever figured out how much money they are costing themselves by forcing people to use a search hierarchy (tags) instead of a visual hierarchy (Folders) that is the norm for most of the planet. 

I would think if you wanted to increase market share and profitability simply bringing to the market the number one user feature request would be a no brainer.

I would love for Evernote to hire me as an outside consultant to increase their business. I'd submit a report and a bill for $50,000. The report would be one page and say:

"Once a year, develop the top 3 features desired by your customers, as indicated in your forum Called General Feature Request"

😆😆😆

Evernote as a product has so much positive going for it, just seems crazy they would shoot themselves in the foot and hold themselves back year after year by ignoring their number one customer request.

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3 minutes ago, mikefinleyco said:

a search hierarchy (tags) instead of a visual hierarchy (Folders)

There's no support for Folders   
Instead, Evernote provides two metadata fields: notebooks and tags    
For visual hierarchy, use the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar

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@mikefinleyco Right, this comment is a no-brainer:

Nested folders are one-dimensional, which leads to duplication of information elements, be it  notes or files. Just because computers were build this way decades ago, "everybody“ uses it, when probably „nobody“ should. EN is by its design a no-nester for notes.

If you love nesting of folders so much, you should probably move to another service.

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On 1/12/2021 at 9:37 AM, PinkElephant said:

 

If you love nesting of folders so much, you should probably move to another service.

If your only response to every post is "move to another service"  I would say obviously you have nothing constructive to say, try resisting the narcists in you and don't say anything.

I can't believe the stupidity of anyone continuously trolling the forums and cutting and pasting that to everyone on a daily basis as you do. Too much time on your hands?

Why would anyone with a life come into a thread where people are asking for an improvement in a product and you take the time to say "move to another service" that's really disgusting behavior and a waste of everybody's time and serves no purpose other than to act as a bully or you really must get a huge rush out of seeing your own typing. With over 4000 posts I guess that's a given.

 

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@mikefinleyco Probably you should rethink your position.

You remember me of these thinkers of old age, that thought because they exist, the whole universe must rotate around them. Was proven wrong, just in case you were on sick leave when this was treated at school.

Everybody who joined EN joined a „no-notebook-nesting“ service. Obviously many did employ it with success, building sound structures with the building blocks offered to them. One can get the impression a few others failed to do so, and are now bitching around they need nesting and hierarchy to serve their linear way of thinking.

IMHO if you are mainly thinking in linear, hierarchical ways, you are better of with other services, that support organizing information the way you like it to be done. This is not offensive, humans are different, and one size does not fit all.

Others like me prefer to connect information network-like, non hierarchical. We are happy with how things are structured right now - and think EN should put their resources into more productive features.

If you look at the new „Home“ feature: This is classical networked design, simply can’t be done by organizing information by hierarchy.

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10 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

@mikefinleyco Probably you should rethink your position.

You remember me of these thinkers of old age, that thought because they exist, the whole universe must rotate around them. Was proven wrong, just in case you were on sick leave when this was treated at school

 

Were  you reminded of that attitude when you looked in the mirror?  It's really tedious monitoring this thread (for years) to see the fan-boys explain over and over why those of us who need folders actually don't, then present baroque workarounds.  Keep your tags and eschew folders.  Fine with me.  There's no reason to ditch tags but these is ample reason to add folders.

It's been discussed before but my guess is that the oft-patched EN legacy code never anticipated how EN would be used but that the company is afraid to march into that swamp and try to make major changes.  The owners of EN are not stupid; they probably wish that the had folders for marketing reasons alone and regret the constraints keeping them from doing it.  So, I use EN primarily as a repository for web clips and maintain a weak hope that it will be made more useful to me someday.

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1 hour ago, PinkElephant said:

If you look at the new „Home“ feature: This is classical networked design, simply can’t be done by organizing information by hierarchy.

Well it is kind of a page with five sub pages, sort of hierarchical in view.  Just sayin''....  ;) 

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