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Do not change 'date updated' when changing tags, notebooks, note title


humanengr

Idea

The default should be to change 'date updated' only when note content is changed.

Make this the default convention.

Perhaps include a settings option for users who prefer 'date updated' be changed when changing tags, notebooks, note title (either as a single or separate sub-options).

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If you've ever accidentally changed any of the above or accidentally deleted a note  tag you know how hard it can be to find and repair.  An option for those not wanting to change would be fine.

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On 3/31/2021 at 12:01 AM, mynameisnotebody said:

Hey everybody who likes this … there's an 'up arrow' on the topic header that we're supposed to upvote. I'm guessing Evernote staff might not take notice unless this is upvoted.

Upvoted - thanks! need more people though... 

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This is mainly a philosophical question, and it may affect not that much people.

BUT: If you organized your work around sorting by updated date, it could be very annoying, that changing meta data touches the timestamp.

Example: By the end of the year, I move all notes from the inbox notebook to an notebook Archive_<year>. Since Evernote 10.x, this touches all update date, which makes it no longer possible to see, when I really worked on a note last time.

Example: I forgot to tag a note from a journey in 2018. Adding the appropriate tag today, moves the note out of its time context to the top of the list.

Workaround for me is using Evernote Legacy on Windows, but this will end in future, I guess.

 

Using Evernote since 2011, 13,000 notes, 40 notebooks

 

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I also just made an account to ask for this feature request. I only sort my notes every once and awhile, and look at my notes sorted by last changed. After I spend some time to organize my notes, it feels more of a mess than if I had never done it at all. It's very annoying. 

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I need this option too. This is one of the things I hate about new evernote v10. 

I have the same  kind of issue when I organize many notes. after that update date means nothing to me. it's very confusing.

Why did they change how it works??

On 1/5/2022 at 5:31 PM, Sönke Luck said:

This is mainly a philosophical question, and it may affect not that much people.

BUT: If you organized your work around sorting by updated date, it could be very annoying, that changing meta data touches the timestamp.

Example: By the end of the year, I move all notes from the inbox notebook to an notebook Archive_<year>. Since Evernote 10.x, this touches all update date, which makes it no longer possible to see, when I really worked on a note last time.

Example: I forgot to tag a note from a journey in 2018. Adding the appropriate tag today, moves the note out of its time context to the top of the list.

Workaround for me is using Evernote Legacy on Windows, but this will end in future, I guess.

 

Using Evernote since 2011, 13,000 notes, 40 notebooks

 

 

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You may do what you want to do - but editing any field that is originally written and later modified by a program itself is never a good idea.

The devs don’t need to care about user activity in a field that always have been written by EN - it probably is just a tiny fraction of users who do this sort of intervention anyhow.

Most accept that the created and modified fields are under system control. For me it looks natural that when I interact with a note, the timestamp is updated.

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You're wrong:

12 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

in a field that always have been written by EN … Most accept that the created and modified fields are under system control.

The field wasn't always written by EN. Pre-v10, users could edit the 'date modified' field. (They could also edit the 'date created' field, but that's not what's being discussed.)

And you're missing the point.

When changing tags or moving between notebooks, EN should provide an option in settings to not update 'date modified when tags are changed or when notes are moved between notebooks. Tags and file location are metadata, not content.

Pre-v10 EN didn't update 'date modified' when changing tags or moving between notebooks.

Neither does MacOS — which also doesn't update 'date modified' when renaming files (which supports my inclusion of 'note title' in my proposal).

EN should restore this key feature (as an option) that some experienced users have relied on.

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Point is EN will change the modified date when the note is changed.  Pre V10 tag changes did not cause such an update.  EN did to want to change modified date with a tag change back in the day.  Which was a PITA should one accidentally delete a tag from a group of notes.  Try finding them without a modified date update.  .Different philosophy now I suppose.  Sympathies if your use case got hammered.  V10 did that to quite a few of my use cases and unfortunately I had to leave EN.

When I used EN I would change the created date to get a past document in the right place.  I did so at my own peril but knew EN wasn't going to change the created date once the note was created.  So low risk.

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Posted (edited)
24 minutes ago, CalS said:

Sympathies if your use case got hammered.  V10 did that to quite a few of my use cases and unfortunately I had to leave EN.

When I used EN I would change the created date to get a past document in the right place.

Appreciate the sympathy on the different use cases — ergo, my proposal as a settings option.

(FWIW, I also used 'date created' "to get a past document in the right place"; I didn't include 'date created' in my list b/c I imagined greater objections to that — but am willing to include if more express support.)

Edited by humanengr
flexible
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You're still wrong.

On 5/7/2022 at 3:14 PM, PinkElephant said:

My opinion is not to use fields under system control to store any information relevant to me.

Pre-v10 they could be modified by users. So they were not "under system control".

You're not helping the discussion.

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You still don't get it. And you're condescending.

The date updated field is metadata that the program needn't change when other metadata (tags, location, name) are changed. It should be user choice as to whether it is automatically changed.

All this proposal does is give the OPTION to restore that treatment. OPTION means you can have the current v10 treatment and others who want the pre-v10 treatment can have that.

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It's not a 'core function'. If it was core, it would have been there pre-v10. And likewise in all other apps and OS's. But it's not.

This restores — as an option — pre-v10 treatment for those who prefer that.

And stop with the condescension: "We", "each personal method", "always the same", "only a fraction", "if they configure them badly".

Glad you can use the app without thinking.

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The main reason I kept legacy around was so that I could update the modify date and time but it became a hassle so I had to stop caring.

I get having a modify date time and having the program do whatever it needs to do with those dates whenever it feels that a note has been modified.

One of the nice things about Evernote though is that I can view all my most recently updated notes -- like on a Monday to go back and see what I changed or added over the last week. However, if I were to rename a tag and that tag had hundreds of old notes, all those old notes would now push down the "real" updated notes from last week. Kind of a bummer - but oh well.

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>> We see a tendency to ask for settings for each personal method of using EN.

Actully I understand what you are trying to say. generally the system should be simple without any complex customization. However, this is not that kind of thing. In my point of view, this is not even an additional function. It's the basic specification which has been changed with v10.

In any platform Mac/Linux/windows, moving a file to another directory doesn’t count as an update. Because the content of a file never change. It is a common behavier of the system.

It's the same in the real world too, when you moving a book from a shelf to another dosen't change its content.

So tagging and moving a note is the change outside of its contents, and those should not be count as "updated".

After all, here is "General Feature Requests" which is exactly the place to make these demands. I'm not sure what bothers you so much.

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I agree in the arguments of PinkElephant, I also hate complexity. But in this case there are different opinions about what should touch the last modified date. There is no true or false, but I think for those of us who are using this field to sort their notes, it is a disaster if after renaming a tag hundreds of notes getting touched, and removed from their context. 

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Tags are not part of notes. They are stored in an index database (like index data to accelerate search functions). So if you apply tags to notes or remove tags from notes or rename tags, nothing of the note content is changed.
It is a design fail of V10 to change a notes's updated time on changing tags. And that's that.

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5 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Note title is not part of notes.  It's stored in an index database

THX - just verified how Windows (and I'm sure other OS, too) work with file names:

  • If you change the name, the updated date is NOT changed
  • If you change the folder, the update date is NOT changed

@EN: It is a design fail of V10 to change updated time when changing tags, notebooks, note title. (even if @PinkElephant might not go with this 😉)

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10 minutes ago, humanengr said:

'date updated' be changed when changing tags, notebooks, note title

No objection to options   
imho  The default should be any update be reflected in the "date updated"

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On Mac, convention is to not update for any of those — so default of 'none' would be consistent there.

UPDATE: At this point (2018/05/08) it looks like, of those who expressed an opinion, those who favor having "change 'date updated' only when note content is changed" as the default outnumber those in favor of having "change 'date updated' when either note content or note metadata (tags, notebook, title) are changed" as default by 8:2 (7:2 at least for tags) w/ 1 'no objection', if I count right.

Edited by humanengr
Correcting
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I understand your use of these fields, and that it is working differently at the moment. I understand as well that you want to mold EN into what you would like it to be.

My opinion is not to use fields under system control to store any information relevant to me. You can continue to think it is a brilliant idea of "experienced" users.

To reach out to EN to get anything changed, use the feedback function build into the clients, or issue a support ticket.

 

 

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A discussion is not helped by insisting on things must be the way one wants them to be.

A field that is written by a program is always a bad idea to store own data. If there was proof needed for that fact, this thread just shows it.

But anybody go ahead, nobody needs to listen. Just don't come back and complain about lost work and data.

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We see a tendency to ask for settings for each personal method of using EN. The argument is always the same: „Oh, I know only a fraction of users do as I do, but with a setting we could be fine.“

What this does not take into account is that each additional setting drives complexity and makes the app in total less usable. Users need to understand settings, if they configure them badly, they often have problems to analyze the interaction between settings and reconfigure. This is my experience here on the forum.

My opinion in this respect is simple: As little settings as possible, and no settings on core functions like updating a „changed“ date. When I touch a note in any respect, the „changed“ date is updated, without a need to think about it. This is simple, reflects what has happened - and works free of settings.

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4 minutes ago, AlbertR said:

Tags are not part of notes. They are stored in an index database

Note title is not part of notes.  It's stored in an index database

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I am wondering if somebody from Evernote is reading all these discussions. Maybe I do not understand how this feature request forum works …

AlbertR calls it a design fail. I would not take these hard words - but in principle he is totally right! Even if Evernote isn‘t willing to change this, they should be so fair and share their arguments.

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