Bad form, Evernote.

[Tim H 37]

Like everyone else still using Legacy, I now get pretty much daily reminders to upgrade. Rather than defer to 'Remind Me Later' I decided to download and upgrade (I have V10 installed alongside legacy). Guess what! After upgrading V10 to the latest... IT DELETES THE LEGACY VERSION. What's more, the download links for legacy seem to have been removed. I'm not impressed. I liked legacy. The new version takes too many liberties, has too much unrequired functionality  and has too little to recommend it. There are things that we've been asking for since it was released and have never been addressed.

[s2sailor 2,342]

27 minutes ago, Tim H said:

What's more, the download links for legacy seem to have been removed.

Search around, the link for Legacy can still be found on the forum.

I think Evernote is trying to make it very clear that Legacy, already not supported, will be going away.  The time is now for a plan B.  Either make peace with the V10 changes or find a different app that better meets your needs.

[PinkElephant 8,284]

Since the two clients started in May 2023 to use different syncing methods, I changed my position regarding installing both in parallel. There are syncing problems, and they are likely aggravated if the server has to provide syncing for both methods. They are based on different data structures, the new real time sync taking over as standard method.

This is my new personal position: I do not recommend using legacy any more. v10 does what is needed for most fellow users, and the few who can't find their use cases supported should now move to another app. Export of data can be done in v10, one ENEX file per notebook. This was the recommended method with legacy as well.

[gw w 0]

Whats the best alternative to evernote?

[Tim H 37]

I did eventually get sent a link to legacy..but the links on the forum that I found were all dead.

Definitely agree that legacy is running out of time, and I can live with most of v10..but surely I should get the chance for a managed migration. Many of my notes will need editing because they contain check boxes which will get forcibly converted to checklists on edit. Printing now demands that the note title appear, and if printing two up through system dialog, the back links appear. A lot of effort is going into things like AI cleanup (who asked for that?) and not onto simple stuff that helps people migrate.

[PinkElephant 8,284]

You migrate by installing v10. It pulls a fresh copy from the server, and you are good to go in 5 minutes.

Nothing of what you mention needs to be „edited“ in legacy. The only action in legacy to prepare a move would be to export any local notebooks - which you don’t mention, so it doesn’t seem to be a topic for you.

The rest is getting acquainted in v10. Or switch over to your personal „Plan B“.

[Federico Simionato 1,031]

We had to work with what we had. I know the update popup message is slightly confusing (unless you read the whole text) and that Legacy gets uninstalled (which is not ideal for those who would like to keep both clients in parallel), but that's the default behavior and we could not change it.

Quote

A lot of effort is going into things like AI cleanup

I assure you that keeping Legacy alive is preventing us from improving v10 backend several orders of magnitude more than our work on AI Note Cleanup and new features in general.

[Tim H 37]

Federico - "that's the default behavior" - yep, I had got used to having both versions - but I read the whole text, and it seemed to me that I would get a choice about the deletion of the old version. Or perhaps I was over hopeful. Next time it pops up I will reread it.

Pink - "Nothing of what you mention needs to be „edited“ in legacy." - that's not what I meant. If I move from legacy then there's a whole load of work to do. All my checkbox lists need to be converted to checklists - as soon as I edit one list, (and there might be several separate lists in one document) I need to edit the others or else it's a mess. My font sizes and choices need to be cleaned up - or it's a mess. And I print some of my notes for a binder, and there's a whole load of decisions about what is and isn't included in a note - like the header - so again I need to reformat my notes so it can fit on a page with the header - printing of which used to be an option not forced.

These are minor things.. but I have tried to go forward and can't - and a couple of minor changes would fix that. At least, for me

a) don't force conversion of a series of checkboxes to check lists

b) make printing of the header (and the backlinks box) optional (as it used to be)

I can't think of an upgrade to anything in the past that has needed so much work - apart from trying to create a useful clean interface when I upgraded to Windows 11. That was a time consuming task too.



 

[PinkElephant 8,284]

About updating from legacy to v10: Both apps use their own local database. The way the update works today makes sure there is no multi-GB folder structure left orphaned on the local storage. I think most users would not be happy to keep the same data twice, and need to go to the engine room to remove one set of them.

The wording of the update notice could be improved.

About "reworking": You can work against the new app - be assured, this is never fun, and simply makes not sense. I have not reworked anything when making the switch - and I made it very early, when v10 was only a fraction of what it is today. Sure you can ask for anything, and even if the chances of a change are dim, they are never zero. I just want to remind that the checkboxes issue has significant postings here initially, but it more or less died out. I don't see a pressure from us users to change this now, nearly 3 years into the conversion. My observation, you can think about it differently.

Take it as it is, or enact your plan B. If having a note's title print (or not) is an essential feature for you, then you need to take a decision.

[janndk 576]

5 hours ago, Federico Simionato said:

I assure you that keeping Legacy alive is preventing us from improving v10 backend several orders of magnitude more than our work on AI Note Cleanup and new features in general.

Everything seems to be about Legacy and Legacy and Legacy... 😑 Maybe it's time to put it aside for a while, and give some focus on other challenges too.

[Alxa 483]

12 minutes ago, janndk said:

Everything seems to be about Legacy and Legacy and Legacy... 😑 Maybe it's time to put it aside for a while, and give some focus on other challenges too.

That would be good. But I think they don't dare to cut off service for all those legacy only users yet. Look at the Android client. In 2023/01 around 30% of Android devices were running on Android OS versions <10 - given Google stats are correct. The new client never got access to these OS versions and probably never will (due to the resource hungry web framework they now use instead of the formerly native code). Ending legacy support could exclude a significant part of the (mobile only?) user base. But only EN could tell, they have the stats...

[Tim H 37]

"Everything seems to be about Legacy and Legacy and Legacy" - actually, it's not. I don't want the Legacy app any more than anyone else. I am usually an early adopter. Every app on my laptop is latest version. I'd love to get off that old app. But I think it is about acknowledging that different people work differently and have different needs.. and I don't see anywhere near the flexibility in v10 that I saw in the old version.. and that has me worried. It sounds as if Evernote are not listening to their users. So.. have the complaints about checklists disappeared -or is it simply that those users migrated? But as Pink Elephant says, I can live with this or go to plan B.

(PS - I am not 'working against' the new app - but the changes I need to make to dozens of notes to allow them to work with v10 are not insubstantial.)

[agsteele 2,979]

20 minutes ago, Tim H said:

So.. have the complaints about checklists disappeared -or is it simply that those users migrated?

I am sure that many of us have learned new ways of doing stuff so that checklists have become easier to work with.  Certainly the setting that allows a user to choose whether a checklist item is struck out or not helped some.  Presumably some users have moved on but I couldn't say how many. For sure not working with Legacy AND v10 made the two approaches easier to co-exist for me. YMMV.

[WilliamL 658]

6 hours ago, Federico Simionato said:

I assure you that keeping Legacy alive is preventing us from improving v10 backend several orders of magnitude more than our work on AI Note Cleanup and new features in general

I do wonder if there comes a time to pull the pug on legacy? It seems it’s holding you back and I do wonder is anyone truly benefiting from the halfway house EN seems trapped in? Legacy folks may leave, but equally users of EN10 may leave if progress isn’t obvious, especially with the recent price increases. 

[agsteele 2,979]

We know, because @Federico Simionato  said so in another thread earlier today, that continued support for Legacy is causing significant challenges for both Legacy and v10.

[Federico Simionato 1,031]

2 hours ago, WilliamL said:

I do wonder if there comes a time to pull the pug on legacy?

For sure it will. The only thing that needs to be understood is when.

For now, there are still many people using Legacy.
I know it might sound unbelievable to users that are so interested in the product that they participate in the forums, but most of them don't know they are using Legacy, or don't know there's a newer version that's actively supported. They just know they are using "Evernote", and they have every right to think so (at the end of the day it is technically true).

So we built the update popup for them, and we're seeing that the vast majority is choosing to update over time.

[CalS 5,292]

Perhaps if a sunset date was announced the mass migration (in or out) would be triggered?  Why not such a date?

[Federico Simionato 1,031]

The migration is already happening thanks to the popup. Let's give it a few weeks.

[FrankLeeMyDeer 2]

On 6/21/2023 at 3:26 PM, s2sailor said:

S

On 6/21/2023 at 2:56 PM, Tim H said:

Like everyone else still using Legacy, I now get pretty much daily reminders to upgrade. Rather than defer to 'Remind Me Later' I decided to download and upgrade (I have V10 installed alongside legacy). Guess what! After upgrading V10 to the latest... IT DELETES THE LEGACY VERSION. What's more, the download links for legacy seem to have been removed. I'm not impressed. I liked legacy. The new version takes too many liberties, has too much unrequired functionality  and has too little to recommend it. There are things that we've been asking for since it was released and have never been addressed.

Yup.   And in deleting the Legacy version support for ENSCRIPT evaporates, something I've used to launch specific notebooks, or specific projects (via tags)  from the command line.   If there were new ways to to have the same functionality it would be less of a problem.   And the new version IMO shows less metrics - I can't easily verify that the qty of notes are correct. 

 

 

[PinkElephant 8,284]

You can find more hair in the fresh, hot soup.

But the old bowl has gotten cold, and will be removed from the table soon.

Accept changes in your workflow - they will happen, if you update or if you move.

[FrankLeeMyDeer 2]

On 7/6/2023 at 9:59 AM, Federico Simionato said:

So we built the update popup for them, and we're seeing that the vast majority is choosing to update over time.

Gotta say I didn't 'choose' to update, rather I failed to exclude the update.   Now I've lost functionality that was part of my regular workflow.   

[PinkElephant 8,284]

There is no guarantee that things always stay the same. There is some impact on existing workflows. There are chances for new ones.

You miss out if you mourn over the one, and forget to explore the other.

[gustavgi 308]

On 7/6/2023 at 7:20 PM, Federico Simionato said:

The migration is already happening thanks to the popup. Let's give it a few weeks.

Are you in some way trying to track what different "features" in Legacy that may keep Legacy users from switching, if that is interesting to you?

I, like someone wrote earlier, would like to switch to a newer version more than anything else - but a few things that have a huge impact keeps me from switching. And it's not really about having to  "change existing workflows", which seems to be the buzzwords that keeps popping up in this discussion. I have no problem making even major changes to my workflow, to adapt to a new or revised software. It's all about functionality, or more specifically lack thereof.

Like, why is the shiny new v10 created as if I was sitting on a 22" 1280x720 monitor back in 2005? Legacy is wonderful on a 4k screen, where the software adapts or can be adapted to the screen real estate. I never once have to hoover over text to read full text, as Legacy either adjusts to text length itself (as with Ctrl+Q on Windows, which also instantly gives you a scrollable complete list of all search results with no limitation) or I can drag and move dividers everywhere in different parts of the software, to display the full text. I guess that the reason is that the desktop version has been affected by some sort of smartphone/tablet-first approach, but why does that mean that when I try to make the left panel larger by dragging and moving the divider, the divider lets me make it a bit larger but then just stops 1/4 into the screen with no possibility to drag it any further?

And since I can edit web clipped notes clipped using v10 inside Legacy, without destroying/removing/simplyfing formatting, why can't I have the option to do the same in v10?

😔

[Sugeeth Krish 476]

2 hours ago, gustavgi said:

And since I can edit web clipped notes clipped using v10 inside Legacy, without destroying/removing/simplyfing formatting, why can't I have the option to do the same in v10?

It was a conscious design effort, as it retains the formatting by the original website. So, that the clipper wouldnt break the formatting. I think it makes some sense as all websites are not built by the same underlying technology. A section of users , would prefer the retaining "of the original formatting". 

If you need to edit, its just a "single tap" away. 

 

[AlbertR 571]

On 7/6/2023 at 10:02 AM, Federico Simionato said:

I assure you that keeping Legacy alive is preventing us from improving v10 [backend and new features]

OK, so if you promise to lead V10 to make it as handy as Legacy, I'll work with it. This includes ...

• speed of any UI/display action
• shrink down display space needs
• allow sorting by reminder (done) time and tags in (any) note lists
• work with two accounts in parallel
• allow images and attachments on one line

[agsteele 2,979]

18 minutes ago, AlbertR said:

OK, so if you promise to lead V10 to make it as handy as Legacy, I'll work with it.

What will you do if such a promise is not forthcoming?

[AlbertR 571]

1 minute ago, agsteele said:

What will you do if such a promise is not forthcoming?

I'll use Legacy as long as V10 fails to replace Legacy's functionality 😉

To be honest: I do not insist on a promise that all this will come immediately. I want Federico to help us Legacy users to get our functionality back in V10 - and not only fancy features for new users (if Legacy will be really hard-dropped to save developer power).

[gustavgi 308]

16 hours ago, Sugeeth Krish said:

It was a conscious design effort, as it retains the formatting by the original website. So, that the clipper wouldnt break the formatting. I think it makes some sense as all websites are not built by the same underlying technology. A section of users , would prefer the retaining "of the original formatting". 

If you need to edit, its just a "single tap" away. 

 

Yeah, but why doesn't that single tap allow for "unlock editing", instead of "break formatting by simplifying formatting" (aka "simplify formatting)?

[PinkElephant 8,284]

Retaining the original website means the web clipper creates an encapsuled version of the site. Editing the original would mean to open this enclosure, apply the edits and restore it on stopping the edits - with all quirks in HTML coding the original site may have employed.

It makes for a much simpler editor (practically the same used to create notes) when the clip is first simplified.

It serves the necessity to edit a clip. If you want to redesign a clipped content, use a CMS.

[Sugeeth Krish 476]

18 hours ago, AlbertR said:

I'll use Legacy as long as V10 fails to replace Legacy's functionality 😉

To be honest: I do not insist on a promise that all this will come immediately. I want Federico to help us Legacy users to get our functionality back in V10 - and not only fancy features for new users (if Legacy will be really hard-dropped to save developer power).

How practical is this? How many features which were there in legacy, were dropped in legacy itself? Atlas comes to mind. How many features of Evernote 7 for ios, were dropped for Evernote 8 for Ios? Please look up. We are not talkng now, but maybe 7 to 8 years ago. Simple, because OS's dev tools were growing at their own speeds and many libraries which EN was using from other sources were getting obsolete. EN had to work hard just to keep them running, inspire of adding tech debt all the time. 

Was there practically any meaningful feature update since 2016? None. A few 'color codes' and 'templates' maybe. That's all. Why? Because of multiple code bases. 

 

As per the old dB, Mac had 'tabs', 'descriptive search' etc which Windows doesn't have, and mobile doesn't have 'table editing' or 'Tag management support', which 'desktop' has. And the web client of legacy was one big mess. 

The mess goes on. So how does EN go about it? Make the windows user happy? Or the mac user? Or the android user? Or the tablet user? 

It's impossible to keep every legacy user happy, and let's face it, legacy won't last long, and even those that adapt to V10.x, have to make some compromises to their work flow. 

[AlbertR 571]

Sorry for cite shortings...

     ... I do not insist on a promise that all this will come immediately.
     ... I want Federico to help us Legacy users to get our functionality back in V10...
  How practical is this? [... followed by many good arguments for a unique code base]

... but as a long-term Windows user who

• never met any feature drops in Legacy
• always fought for EN amoung collegues, friends and other users

I see that nearly all EN-reps, EN-Experts and -L5s here try to explain workarounds for functionality lacks.
There is no EN-rep who acts like a product owner for Legacy stakeholders.
I miss an offical list of not-so-far-implemented old features ranked by customer value.

I know this is a dream - but I have it 😉

 

[Sugeeth Krish 476]

On 7/11/2023 at 8:06 PM, AlbertR said:

OK, so if you promise to lead V10 to make it as handy as Legacy, I'll work with it. This includes ...

• speed of any UI/display action
• shrink down display space needs
• allow sorting by reminder (done) time and tags in (any) note lists
• work with two accounts in parallel
• allow images and attachments on one line

Alternatively, The editor in "Legacy" was nothing short of a joke [ I am talking the unified "Evernote experience, and not just one platform, as its a cloud platform]. Tables was a mess in Android. There was literally no scope for further improvement of any sort, leave alone envisioning stuff like RTE and Tasks or AI . 

Both "Legacy" and "10.x" have their strengths and weaknesses. Its not fair to "belittle" or "pit one against the other", but in current circumstances, clearly, EN has only choce to go 10.x 

[Tim H 37]

The upgrade process has now stalled me - I cannot have both legacy and V10 installed at the same time, which was a pity as I was monitoring the new version.

I would swap over to V10 in a heartbeat if I had two options available - and these are surely not difficult to do and create just so much flexibility

a) to be able to choose what got printed (title, backlinks (why is that even happening?!!), header, footer etc

b) to disable auto conversion of checkboxes to checklists

I will live with the rest! Without these, more an more of my stuff will end up outside of Evernote - causing me to question why I need Evernote in the first place.

Just hoping someone from Evernote might hear my plea . . .

[agsteele 2,979]

Just reinstall the Legacy version and you will have both running alongside one another. Links to the installer address all over these forums or all your favourite search engine.

However, I no longer recommend running both Legacy and v10. They work with entirely different data and sync structures. My view is that using both is likely to cause difficulties.

[Tim H 37]

That's the theory. But not the practice..at least for me. Doing this then running legacy causes v10 to launch and gain focus, rendering legacy unusable.

And have you tried those links recently? The ones I found were dead.

[agsteele 2,979]

I don't use Legacy and would not try to use both together any longer.