Evernote getting more difficult for heavy users

[jonnicolucci 6]

I'm a heavy Evernote user and this app is a lifesaver for me. It's a great app. User for a decade now.

But I've been noticing a rise in technical issues over the Android app and Windows in the past two years, not a decline.

I appreciate it's a work in progress. But for a heavy user, this has become cumbersome and literally a pain in the A.

For example, in the Android app, lack of multiple selection of tags is problematic. Quick tagging is very difficult.

Tagging, moving the note, and saving take a lot of time, seems like eternity.

On Windows, while tagging, the dialog box won't show you a tag unless you type the tag in full. Dialog box won't search the tag for you.

I create about 20+ notes daily, sometimes up to 50. 

This app is not getting easier for heavy users but more difficult. I've been conveying this to Helpline over the months. Haven't seen anything improve.

Anyone else in this situation? How are you coping with this? Why widespread is this impression?

[jonnicolucci 6]

22 minutes ago, Mike P said:

EN provides two methods for searching for tags in order to add them to a note. Just choose the one you want. I only expect it to do that in your example becasue that is how it works. If you want a search for the characters anywhere within the tag use the edit tags dialogue. Personally I have short tags and can normally remember how they start so I use that method. I would strongly dislike having no opption to search for tags that begin with certain characters.

There is also a clear distinction between seareching for notes, searching for words within a note and searching for tags to add to a note. I don't think it is fair to lump them together.

Mike, are you from the Evernote team? You should say so, if you are.

Seems you're more interested in defensive posting, i.e. defending the app.

My objective here is to improve the app, not criticize it.

I've been using this service for a decade. It's an amazing app. I recommend it to everyone. 

You probably missed two important words in the title of this thread: HEAVY USERS. 

There's no question that Evernote can do a good job of searching tags if you keep your tags short and few. But heavy users do heavy searching and heavy note-taking. And yes, sometimes heavy users need to have slightly longer tags. That's the nature of a heavy user's work. 

I'm just trying to convey to Evernote developers that you need to grow with the needs of heavy users. And I've pointed out a couple of issues to alert you. That's all. 

And, Mike, if you're a member of Evernote team, you're not doing a good job of promoting the app by trying to suppress helpful points that I'm trying to convey. 

And, if you're not EN team, then I thank you for your useful input, but it doesn't address my point. 

[Mike P 2,661]

2 hours ago, jonnicolucci said:

On Windows, while tagging, the dialog box won't show you a tag unless you type the tag in full. Dialog box won't search the tag for you.

I'm confused by this. When adding tags I search in tw main ways. Typing in the beginning of a tag name in the tag area at the bottom of the note gives a list of those tags beginning with those characters

Alternatively using the edit tags dialogue (alt+ctrl+T) searches for all those tags that contain the characters added and displays them within the tag hierarchy.

 

 

How are you searching for tags to add?

 

[jonnicolucci 6]

18 minutes ago, Mike P said:

I'm confused by this. When adding tags I search in tw main ways. Typing in the beginning of a tag name in the tag area at the bottom of the note gives a list of those tags beginning with those characters

Alternatively using the edit tags dialogue (alt+ctrl+T) searches for all those tags that contain the characters added and displays them within the tag hierarchy.

 

 

How are you searching for tags to add?

 

Thanks Mike. I use your first method. I type in a word, or characters in a word. What happens is that I get single-word tags, or short-sentenced ones. I don't get a longer tag. 

For example, for the tag 'Israel political crisis 2023', typing 'crisis' doesn't get me this tag. Nor does typing 'political'. I have to type 'Israel' or 'Israel political' to get the dialog box to show that tag. You see what's happening here? The app won't show the tag if I type the third word in the tag, nor if I type the second word. I have to type the first word to see the tag (or the first and second words). 

As for your second method, Alt+Ctrl+T, this combination doesn't give me any response when I'm entering tags in a note. 

[Mike P 2,661]

33 minutes ago, jonnicolucci said:

For example, for the tag 'Israel political crisis 2023', typing 'crisis' doesn't get me this tag. Nor does typing 'political'.

That's what I would expect - typing in characters in the tag area only searches for tags beginning with those characters.

I don't know why the shortcut to the edit tags dialogue is not working. You can change the shortcut if it's some sort of conflict or simply use the menu. Note 🢂 Edit tags

[jonnicolucci 6]

6 minutes ago, Mike P said:

That's what I would expect - typing in characters in the tag area only searches for tags beginning with those characters.

I don't know why the shortcut to the edit tags dialogue is not working. You can change the shortcut if it's some sort of conflict or simply use the menu. Note 🢂 Edit tags

"That's what I would expect - typing in characters in the tag area only searches for tags beginning with those characters."

I don't think so. That's not clear in any Evernote promotional content. In fact, Evernote makes it a point of saying its search function is impeccable. The truth is, it is not. Even the search functionality inside notes for premium subscribers is below par. I think improvements on Evernote original code are long overdue.

[Mike P 2,661]

1 hour ago, jonnicolucci said:

"That's what I would expect - typing in characters in the tag area only searches for tags beginning with those characters."

I don't think so. That's not clear in any Evernote promotional content. In fact, Evernote makes it a point of saying its search function is impeccable. The truth is, it is not. Even the search functionality inside notes for premium subscribers is below par. I think improvements on Evernote original code are long overdue.

EN provides two methods for searching for tags in order to add them to a note. Just choose the one you want. I only expect it to do that in your example becasue that is how it works. If you want a search for the characters anywhere within the tag use the edit tags dialogue. Personally I have short tags and can normally remember how they start so I use that method. I would strongly dislike having no opption to search for tags that begin with certain characters.

There is also a clear distinction between seareching for notes, searching for words within a note and searching for tags to add to a note. I don't think it is fair to lump them together.

[PinkElephant 8,170]

Who is an employee, has "Staff" printed on his forum badge.

All others of us are users. There are some who are EN Experts, that means they made a test and got a certificate for their knowledge. But they are users as well.

There is a 3rd badge status, EN Alumni - former employees.

[Boot17 1,467]

5 hours ago, jonnicolucci said:

On Windows, while tagging, the dialog box won't show you a tag unless you type the tag in full.

I think part of the issue is that this description that was given initially is not accurate.

What was stated: "unless you type the tag in full", which is not the case. You don't have to type the tag in full, you just have to start typing the beginning of the tag -- instead of the middle -- and it will find them for you.

FWIW - I've also wished that tags would be found from *anywhere* in the tag string, not just the beginning.

16 minutes ago, jonnicolucci said:

Seems you're more interested in defensive posting, i.e. defending the app.

I did not get that impression from MikeP's answers at all.

[PinkElephant 8,170]

It's a little bit different, depending on where you enter the tag:

• Enter the tag at the bottom of the page, you need to enter the initial characters, desktop client
• On mobile, enter anything into the add tag icon field, and it is found
• Enter it into the tag search field in filters, you can type any part of the tag, and it is found, among others.

Slightly inconsistent, but what's perfect ...

[jonnicolucci 6]

1 hour ago, Boot17 said:

I think part of the issue is that this description that was given initially is not accurate.

What was stated: "unless you type the tag in full", which is not the case. You don't have to type the tag in full, you just have to start typing the beginning of the tag -- instead of the middle -- and it will find them for you.

FWIW - I've also wished that tags would be found from *anywhere* in the tag string, not just the beginning.

I did not get that impression from MikeP's answers at all.

Thanks. You're right. And so is Mike. But as a heavy user, I wish I can remember every tag from the first word in the tag. That's not possible with dozens and hundreds of tags. That's what I'm trying to convey. Time to evolve. 

[PinkElephant 8,170]

Yeah, I wonder why on mobile this works fine, whereas on desktop it insists on getting the first letters only.

I wouldn’t call it a bug, but having a selection to pick when you enter any string contained in the tag is definitely better.

[John in Michigan USA 129]

11 hours ago, jonnicolucci said:

I'm a heavy Evernote user and this app is a lifesaver for me. It's a great app. User for a decade now.

But I've been noticing a rise in technical issues over the Android app and Windows in the past two years, not a decline.

I appreciate it's a work in progress. But for a heavy user, this has become cumbersome and literally a pain in the A.

For example, in the Android app, lack of multiple selection of tags is problematic. Quick tagging is very difficult.

Tagging, moving the note, and saving take a lot of time, seems like eternity.

On Windows, while tagging, the dialog box won't show you a tag unless you type the tag in full. Dialog box won't search the tag for you.

I create about 20+ notes daily, sometimes up to 50. 

This app is not getting easier for heavy users but more difficult. I've been conveying this to Helpline over the months. Haven't seen anything improve.

Anyone else in this situation? How are you coping with this? Why widespread is this impression?

As a heavy EN user, I feel your pain.

One specific issue you mention -- tag searching only matches on the beginning of a tag, rather than a word anyplace in a tag -- that may be as designed. As a design decision, it is inconsistent. If tag search will match on any part of the tag in one situation (as it does when I add tag to existing note and search on a word at the end of a tag, using EN for android 10.51.1), it should do that in all situations/workflows in that client, and indeed in all clients.

I can confirm that the general UI responsiveness, which was miserable when app v. 10 first came out, has only shown modest signs of improvement. It is still too slow. A UI should be able to keep up with a power user...PCs and Macs have long been able to keep up and even support a certain amount of type-ahead (i.e. when you type keystroke commands faster than the screen can update, but all your keystrokes are nevertheless applied correctly). Android UI and apps have generally good "flow" in that when your gestures get ahead of the display update, gestures will either be applied correctly, or correctly ignored, and in any case, it won't take long for the UI to catch up. Most non-Evernote Android apps continue to be as responsive as they were when they first came out, only lagging a little bit behind Google's in-house Android apps. My guess at this point is, the current EN devs just don't have the deep knowledge and experience to write a really responsive, high-performance Android app.

More disturbingly, I just got a "Conflicting Changes" notice about a note that hasn't changed in 14 days. This implies problems not just with the clients, but with the server/database itself.

How am I coping with all this? Not very well; it is very disappointing and frustrating. If it weren't for lock-in (I currently have c. 5200 notes) I would have given up on Evernote. As it is, I live in fear of the day, probably not far off, when Evernote becomes so bad that the pain of migration will be unavoidable.

[PinkElephant 8,170]

Don't know what's going on on your computer:

• Can't type faster than EN will record and display my typing - always, no exception.*
• UI responsiveness was OK, with the known exception of the last weeks, when opening notes sometimes took too long (20-40 seconds, in rare cases even over a minute)*
• Merging of notes, more moving them as a batch was initially slow, has improved a lot. If I want to speed it up further, I go briefly offline.
• I don't run any Android device - but usually the framework handles all the OS interaction. The problems seem to be specific to Android. Whenever I try to reproduce such a problem on iOS, I find out that the iOS client is working fine.
• No conflict notes since RTE went active, even while doing some collaborative actions on shared notes. It seems there are conditions that can be created leading to the problem, as @eric99 has pointed out, but are not easy to reproduce.

Certain lagginess was associated with a corruption of the local database. No idea is this is still the fact with RTE, but reloading the local database from the server often had very positive effects on the program execution.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,971]

2 hours ago, John in Michigan USA said:

My guess at this point is, the current EN devs just don't have the deep knowledge and experience to write a really responsive, high-performance Android app.

Actually, as I understand it, the decision was made with v. 10 to encapsulate Evernote within the Electron framework, so that a unified codebase could be maintained and yet interact appropriately with all the different OS platforms. The tradeoff in performance has been widely noted in the forums. So it has nothing to do with the devs' capabilities. I'm sure Evernote could reverse course, hire people to create high-performance native apps on all different platforms, and deal with the difficulties of trying to maintain feature parity and interface similarity across them all (since the whole point of Evernote is to access your notes on a variety of devices). Of course, they'd have to pay the programmers and other staff to do that. Of course, they'd have to charge users accordingly. Any thoughts on how that would be received?

[jonnicolucci 6]

11 hours ago, John in Michigan USA said:

As a heavy EN user, I feel your pain.

One specific issue you mention --  -- tag searching only matches on the beginning of a tag, rather than a word anyplace in a tag -- that may be as designed.

As a design decision, it is inconsistent. If tag search will match on any part of the tag in one situation (as it does when I add tag to existing note and search on a word at the end of a tag, using EN for android 10.51.1), it should do that in all situations/workflows in that client, and indeed in all clients.

I can confirm that the general UI responsiveness, which was miserable when app v. 10 first came out, has only shown modest signs of improvement. It is still too slow. A UI should be able to keep up with a power user...PCs and Macs have long been able to keep up and even support a certain amount of type-ahead (i.e. when you type keystroke commands faster than the screen can update, but all your keystrokes are nevertheless applied correctly). Android UI and apps have generally good "flow" in that when your gestures get ahead of the display update, gestures will either be applied correctly, or correctly ignored, and in any case, it won't take long for the UI to catch up. Most non-Evernote Android apps continue to be as responsive as they were when they first came out, only lagging a little bit behind Google's in-house Android apps. My guess at this point is, the current EN devs just don't have the deep knowledge and experience to write a really responsive, high-performance Android app.

More disturbingly, I just got a "Conflicting Changes" notice about a note that hasn't changed in 14 days. This implies problems not just with the clients, but with the server/database itself.

How am I coping with all this? Not very well; it is very disappointing and frustrating. If it weren't for lock-in (I currently have c. 5200 notes) I would have given up on Evernote. As it is, I live in fear of the day, probably not far off, when Evernote becomes so bad that the pain of migration will be unavoidable.

Man, I could print this out and have it on my wall! My points exactly. Thank you for putting them together more eloquently and precisely.

Quote

 "tag searching only matches on the beginning of a tag, rather than a word anyplace in a tag -- that may be as designed."

This wouldn't matter for most light users. But for a power user, this means a lot. It's a problem.

Quote

My guess at this point is, the current EN devs just don't have the deep knowledge and experience to write a really responsive, high-performance Android app.

My experience exactly.

Quote

More disturbingly, I just got a "Conflicting Changes" notice about a note that hasn't changed in 14 days. This implies problems not just with the clients, but with the server/database itself.

I've experienced this 2-3 times in the past couple of years. Issues similar to this have led me to lose content I thought was safely saved. I'd this is an early sign, one that EN devs should pay attention to.

Quote

How am I coping with all this? Not very well; it is very disappointing and frustrating. If it weren't for lock-in (I currently have c. 5200 notes) I would have given up on Evernote

In 10 years, I thought about searching for EN alternatives for the first time. I still believe there isn't anyone out there that matches EN. But EN should not force its users to reach point simply because you don't want to improve your app and cater to different types of users, esp power users.

[jonnicolucci 6]

9 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Actually, as I understand it, the decision was made with v. 10 to encapsulate Evernote within the Electron framework, so that a unified codebase could be maintained and yet interact appropriately with all the different OS platforms. The tradeoff in performance has been widely noted in the forums. So it has nothing to do with the devs' capabilities. I'm sure Evernote could reverse course, hire people to create high-performance native apps on all different platforms, and deal with the difficulties of trying to maintain feature parity and interface similarity across them all (since the whole point of Evernote is to access your notes on a variety of devices). Of course, they'd have to pay the programmers and other staff to do that. Of course, they'd have to charge users accordingly. Any thoughts on how that would be received?

Quote

they'd have to pay the programmers and other staff to do that. Of course, they'd have to charge users accordingly. Any thoughts on how that would be received?

Excellent explanation and point. This level of improvement may not be for every Evernote user. But a power user like me would pay for this. The current level of app responsiveness for a heavy user like me is inadequate and problematic. I'd pay for upgrading this experience.

[s2sailor 2,230]

50 minutes ago, jonnicolucci said:

But a power user like me would pay for this. The current level of app responsiveness for a heavy user like me is inadequate and problematic. I'd pay for upgrading this experience.

The problem was that not enough users were willing to pay for this.  Evernote originally had separate development teams optimizing for each platform but it was not sustainable for the company.  Additionally, they had difficulty in maintaining parity between the clients and providing a consistent user experience.  Updates or improvements were slow to nonexistent, so the decision, right or wrong, was to move to the Electron framework that enabled more consistent development across the various clients.  It is definitely allowing the team to much more quickly update the clients and add new features.  Time will tell if it was the correct business decision.  Personally, I think legacy Evernote was dying on the vine.  The move to the new framework gives it a shot at long term sustainability, though with some tradeoffs.

[PinkElephant 8,170]

Personally I doubt that 2 different lines of clients can be developed, released and run in parallel, on the same database. It is difficult enough to manage with on lineup of clients, build for several platforms.

EN had several clients for years, that were provided to run the same services on different platforms. It simply didn’t work out - just need to compare legacy Windows and legacy Mac: 32bit code vs. 64bit, one had import folders, the other tabs, none both, different settings, different interaction with other apps, not the same user interface etc.

 I don’t think this was only managed poorly, I think it was driven by different environments and teams.

Economically it didn’t work out, and nearly broke the company. This is no prescription for future success.

Maybe a stop on developing additional features, and a focus of the full team on reliability and performance for some months would be a better and sustainable strategy ?

[CalS 5,281]

As an ex power user I helped my wife out this past week cleaning up some stuff on her Basic account.  It took too long.  I was using the web version. 

Sometimes images did not display the first time the note was displayed.  A couple of notes were blank (maybe the content got deleted accidentally, I don't know).  Sometimes I would enter a search and no notes would show.  I would reset and the expected notes would appear.  It was faster than it was the last time I did some clean up for her.  But still sluggish.  And this is a small 2100 note account, mostly recipes.  

Probably fine for the casual user, but I agree if you use EN highly interactively so much of the day is spent waiting.  It be the framework.  🤷‍♂️

[PinkElephant 8,170]

Yes, we have this delay on opening often since RTE launched.

Wolud you mind checking if the web client is already on 10.58.3 or .5 ? These latest updates improved the situation somewhat, at least for me, and on an installed client.

[CalS 5,281]

10.57.10.  Hasn't updated yet.

[s2sailor 2,230]

1 hour ago, CalS said:

Hasn't updated yet

Download it from the main site.  I usually do that since rollout can take a week or two.  I have noticed improvement with 10.58.3.  I just downloaded .5 so the jury is still out.

[Boot17 1,467]

Meta side note: As a heavy user I think I should start prefacing all my comments with "as a heavy user" as well to add some more weight to what I'm about to say... 😀

[PinkElephant 8,170]

2 hours ago, CalS said:

10.57.10.  Hasn't updated yet.

OK, hope it updates itself soon, and the speed improves. Did it for me. I have got 10.58.3 on the web already, it updated itself.

[CalS 5,281]

1 hour ago, s2sailor said:

Download it from the main site.  I usually do that since rollout can take a week or two.  I have noticed improvement with 10.58.3.  I just downloaded .5 so the jury is still out.

Not sure how to download/update the web version

[s2sailor 2,230]

38 minutes ago, CalS said:

Not sure how to download/update the web version

Ahh, I was referring to the client.  I’m not aware of a way to update the web version either.

[John in Michigan USA 129]

On 6/14/2023 at 8:44 PM, PinkElephant said:

Don't know what's going on on your computer:

• Can't type faster than EN will record and display my typing - always, no exception.*
  • For typing in the main body, the latest EN is reasonably responsive. A more typical lag scenario is, I create a new note. It takes 1-2 sec for the UI to even show me a new note, then 1-2 sec for the template to be applied, then more time before I can click inside the body or title and start typing, without concerns about where my keystrokes will end up. Many times the new note seems ready for input, so I click on title and type, yet some or all of my input lands in the body. Apparently even after it displays a new, blank (or templated) note and lets you click on different parts of it, it is still deciding where the focus should be.
• UI responsiveness was OK, with the known exception of the last weeks, when opening notes sometimes took too long (20-40 seconds, in rare cases even over a minute)*
  • Still a problem for me, has not improved since last week.
• Merging of notes, more moving them as a batch was initially slow, has improved a lot. If I want to speed it up further, I go briefly offline.
  • I don't merge notes or move batches very often.
• I don't run any Android device - but usually the framework handles all the OS interaction. The problems seem to be specific to Android. Whenever I try to reproduce such a problem on iOS, I find out that the iOS client is working fine.
  • Latest EN on my Android phone might be slow due to the phone itself.
  • But, legacy EN 6.x on Win 7 out-performs most recent EN on MacBook (only a few years old) in terms of UI responsiveness, as of yesterday. What's more, legacy EN on Win 7 correctly greys the screen, changes to busy cursor, and stops responding when it falls behind, as a Windows program should. When it catches up, the busy cues go away and it is again responsive. Whereas the EN on MacBook seems to switch back and forth between busy and idle several times before it finally settles down and is responsive. Just because I see the UI cues to show idle, I can't start typing...I have to wait a few seconds to see if it becomes busy again, or is well and truly ready for me to type.
• No conflict notes since RTE went active, even while doing some collaborative actions on shared notes. It seems there are conditions that can be created leading to the problem, as @eric99 has pointed out, but are not easy to reproduce.
  • I gave up on shared notes a long time ago. I occasionally test them to see if they've improved. They haven't.

Certain lagginess was associated with a corruption of the local database. No idea is this is still the fact with RTE, but reloading the local database from the server often had very positive effects on the program execution.

I don't know why I am having a different experience than you are. I guess I'm just documenting that these problems still exist, for some users at least...

 

[PinkElephant 8,170]

Already on 10.58.5 ?

It speeds things up, at least for me and others reporting an improvement.

Furthermore there was a forum post only a few hours ago by EN staff that they did some work on the server software. It said note loading and task syncing will be improved.

https://discussion.evernote.com/forums/topic/146270-note-loading-and-tasks-sync-issues/

Maybe update (if necessary) and see whether it runs better.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,971]

4 hours ago, John in Michigan USA said:

UI responsiveness was OK, with the known exception of the last weeks, when opening notes sometimes took too long (20-40 seconds, in rare cases even over a minute)*

• Still a problem for me, has not improved since last week.

Just on this point, an important post from Evernote staff today:

 

[John in Michigan USA 129]

19 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Already on 10.58.5 ?

• Just ran Play Store update, still on 10.51.1 :-{ will keep trying
• As to the Windows client, I will have my new Win 11 PC in place in the next week or two, so I will be able to do another extended eval of the latest EN for Win. My previous extended eval on a borrowed PC c. 1 month ago was cut short when I saw so many obvious performance problems it seemed pointless to continue. Maybe next time will be different.

It speeds things up, at least for me and others reporting an improvement.

Furthermore there was a forum post only a few hours ago by EN staff that they did some work on the server software. It said note loading and task syncing will be improved.

https://discussion.evernote.com/forums/topic/146270-note-loading-and-tasks-sync-issues/

Maybe update (if necessary) and see whether it runs better.

 

[PinkElephant 8,170]

10.58.5 is desktop/web.

Mobile is still on 10.51.1. Waiting myself for a new release. Printing and pdf export is broken on iOS.