Nested Folders

[SteveJazz 20]

I don’t see enhanced functionality for having multiple levels of nested folders. Is this coming, or is this an enhancement that Evernote doesn’t see as necessary? I did see in the release notes that there is support for nested tags, but when I experimented with it, I concluded that you can only have two levels (which is no better than Stacks/Notebooks). This is the SINGLE feature that has caused me to use OneNote or Apple Notes. Thanks.  

[SteveJazz 20]

It seems like this has been a passionate debate on these forums for a long time. I think it is fair to say that for those of us that like a hierarchical structure and the concept of actual filing notes, tags are not a substitute for nested notebooks (or folders). Tags are helpful in other ways, and they can approximate the functionality of nested notebooks, but they aren’t the same. I’m not sure it really is a debate...Tags won’t work for me (if they do for others, that’s wonderful). 

Unfortunately, having that functionality is critical to me.  I got excited when I learned that Evernote was doing a major revamp and had hopes that nested notebooks would be enabled. Frankly, even one more level would be enough to enable my workflow. Sadly, this major revamp doesn’t have that functionality. That’s fine...Evernote has a philosophy and it is sticking to it. I have a need, and I will fulfill it by using Apple Notes (which, although lacking in other features, has enable nested notebooks/folders) or OneNote. 

[SteveJazz 20]

I’m not sure I really want to wade into what seems like a touchy subject in this forum, but I can provide some examples. 

Most importantly, it feels to me that Notebooks have more primacy and functionality in EN than do tags. EN is still fundamentally structured around the stacks/notebooks. Tags feel like a secondary dimension (although important and capable). If I have to use tags to create my hierarchy, then I’m working a lot in this secondary dimension. I’d prefer not to do that. 

Second, I actually want to file my notes and feel that they are part of a virtual hierarchical structure. I want to be able to click on a notebook or sub-notebook and see all the notes that I know are related (because I put them in that notebook). I agree that I can structure the tag list to mimic my desired notebook structure. However, the functionality really isn’t the same. If I click into a notebook, I see all the notes that live in that notebook. I can click on a note, and still see all the other notes in the notebook (in the left sidebar). I can move between those notes and interact with them as a group. Now, if I click on a tag, I end up with a search result of all the notes that have that tag. If I click on a note, do I still get to see all the other notes with that tag? Nope! I end up in the notebook that houses that tagged note (and I’m looking at a lot of other notes that aren’t relevant). I find that ironic, because it really is an admission that the note “lives” in a notebook. Maybe that is less about notebooks vs. tags (I agree they are both just attributes), but EN provides functionality and a visual metaphor for notebooks that are different than it provides for tags. I want to be able to use that functionality with sub-notebooks with a reasonable number of notes, aggregated into larger logical notebooks, aggregated into stacks. 

Finally, philosophically, if tags are a substitute, then why does EN have Notebooks? I think somewhere EN realizes that notes should be filed/structured and tags should be used to find notes that share some attribute across the structure. And, that’s what I believe, I just want the filing structure to have more depth. 

Frankly, for me, if forced to use EN, then I’d simply create a long flat list of notebooks. I’d name them in some way to imply a hierarchy (1, 1.1, 1.2, 2.1). That would give me the structure I want, but would not be visually pleasing and it would not be as functional (as I’d be doing a lot of scrolling). Why not simply let us open or close a nested hierarchy? Honestly, the ratio of applications that use a nested file/notebook structure as the primary organizing dimension to applications that offer tags as the primary organizing mechanism must by 1000:1. It does feel to me that someone at EN just wants to be contrarian. 

[armin3d 2]

Those who say i joined 10 years ago when it didn’t had folders and now realize it. Yes, correct. I started using evernote 10 years ago when all i needed was a simple note taking app. over years i realized evernote is actually pushing me back on getting my researches and brain dumps categorized.

More on this, Apple Notes and Windows Notes(onenote/stickies) have did a great job adding searchable interface, providing same basic functionality as of evernote. Maybe it’s time for evernote to up the game after 10 years?

There are some saying why not use tags. Let’s imagine following case of nested tags.

Research
- Migration
  - Germany
     - Tax
     - Lifestyle
     - Residency
     - Language
     - Todo
  - UK
     - Tax
     - Lifestyle
     - Residency
     - Language
     - Todo
- Travel
  - Germany
      - Language
      - Bookings
      - Todo
  - UK
      - Language
      - Bookings
     - Todo

Good luck creating this as it will complain on many levels saying a tag name is already exist with name Todo. with name Germany... 

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

7 hours ago, DTLow said:

Here's a notebook and tag example for organizing Receipts
Stacks/Notebook                Tags   
Receipts                                Receipts      
    Receipts-Car                              Receipts-Car
    Receipts-Groceries                   Receipts-Groceries     
    Receipts-House                         Receipts-House                  

If all I was working on was a shopping list, we wouldn't be having this conversation. 

Now make 75 organic tags and 75 organic notebooks. Some will have he same names, some will be radically different. 

The problem is that without nested folders, your pretend folders and real tags are all jumbled together. That means when you go in to look at your structured information, you can't because it isn't.

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

3 hours ago, armin3d said:

 

I am an app developer myself. you can keep internal structure as it is. just add nested folders as a new variable for each note. and perhaps add a new db table to hold name of  folders and their parents. not much of internal structure change is needed. and it will make lot of people happy. 

 

Some of the FanBoys in here have argued adding nested folders would require more programming than will be used in the next version of Elder Scrolls--despite the fact that Evernote is the only database around without nested folders. 

 

[armin3d 2]

Actually we can argue all we want here. but I hope we do not get far from the topic of adding nested folder to evernote.

I really want evernote developers to have a discussion about this subject in their meetings. if they did it years ago, please do it again now. probably you guys have a new team members who can give new ideas on how you can implement it.

I for one, would still like to come back to Evernote when nested folder is implemented.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

6 hours ago, Mike P said:

So you if there were enough levels of stacks, notebooks etc to implement this using notebooks you would also need the ability to have two notebooks of the same name which is not currently allowed in EN (but is in Windows for example).

Only if Evernote had NO idea on how to implement nested folders. Every database program on the planet has the ability to have multiple folders of the same name because one is a nested folder named "Same" in the parent folder of "Mom" while the other one is the folder named "Same" in the parent directory of "Dad". 

The reason you can't have multiple folders named the same thing in Evernote is because they have one big directory that ALL folders (notebooks) sit in. 

 

[Guest Anibal I.]

Hi everyone, 

While we certainly appreciate your feedback and contributions to this thread, I do want to remind everyone to keep the conversation civil. Disagreeing with each other is totally fine and discussion is always welcome, but using it as a means to take shots at each other is not.

For some transparency, feedback from the forums is looked upon heavily by our team, and while it may not always immediately reflect itself in the updates that come out, it's still something that is always considered. 

If you happen to have any questions you'd like to address with me directly, please feel more than welcome to message me. I'm always happy to have a chat.

[stocky2605 402]

Evernote is based on Tags to organize.

Notebooks are good to share a number of Notes with others or e. g. temporarily for a new project - after finishing the project, Tag all notes and move them to your main Notebook (just a recommendation - depends on your requirements / workflow).

I assume nested Folders / Notebooks (besides Stacks)  is not a priority.

[DTLow 5,745]

20 hours ago, SteveJazz said:

I don’t see enhanced functionality for having multiple levels of nested folders.

Evernote has no support for folders
We get two fields for organizing notes; Notebooks and Tags
Tags are the primary organization tool

An important enhancement in IOS v10.0 is that the tag hierarchy can now be accessed - unlimited levels

[SteveJazz 20]

6 hours ago, DTLow said:

Evernote has no support for folders
We get two fields for organizing notes; Notebooks and Tags
Tags are the primary organization tool

An important enhancement in v10.0 is that the tag hierarchy can now be accessed - unlimited levels

Thank you. I missed the unlimited levels for nesting tags. In that case, I can try to leverage Tags the way that I’d like to use notebooks. Still, I’m surprised that Evernote doesn’t simply enable nested folders, a paradigm that has been used to organize items on PCs/Macs from the very beginning of their existence. 

[DTLow 5,745]

3 hours ago, SteveJazz said:

Still, I’m surprised that Evernote doesn’t simply enable nested folders, a paradigm that has been used to organize items on PCs/Macs from the very beginning of their existence. 

The folder paradigm predates computers; legacy from paper documents stored in a filing cabinet

imho I see these benefits in moving to a tag paradigm    
- Multiple organization categories can be specified for a note/document    
- Freedom from filing notes/documents in folder/sub-folder/subsub-folder/subsubsub-folder/....
   and retrieving

Some users emulate the folder paradigm by using the notebook/tag trees

The discussion has been moved to the General Requests forum

[TheMagicWombat 68]

22 hours ago, SteveJazz said:

I don’t see enhanced functionality for having multiple levels of nested folders. Is this coming, or is this an enhancement that Evernote doesn’t see as necessary? I did see in the release notes that there is support for nested tags, but when I experimented with it, I concluded that you can only have two levels (which is no better than Stacks/Notebooks). This is the SINGLE feature that has caused me to use OneNote or Apple Notes. Thanks.  

HA HA HA HA HA HA!!!

Nested folders/notebooks has been the #1 recurring Evernote feature request since the day it went Beta.  Evernote will NEVER have nested notebooks. 

Never.

Think of Evernote as the battle hardened officer in the "baseball bat" scene of Inglorious *****. You, on the other hand, are Lt. Raine. Nested notebooks are your request to have the other German positions pointed out on a map.

They would rather DIE than put nested notebooks into Evernote. 

They have spent 18 months totally rewriting and recoding Evernote so that all versions on all platforms operate identically--even though that has meant that features have been REMOVED.

Yes, that is correct--their response to a problem that did not exist ("Our Windows and Apple platform releases use slightly different menus and hotkeys--OHMYGODNO!!!!") was to spend a full 18 months of development time acting like Procrustes and trim all versions down to the lowest common denominator. 

Nested notbooks?

That is a GOOD one!

They don't care what you want. They don't care what ANYONE wants. What they care about is you learn to do things their way or you can go elsewhere. 

[DTLow 5,745]

19 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Nested folders/notebooks has been the #1 recurring Evernote feature request since the day it went Beta.  Evernote will NEVER have nested notebooks.

The discussion subject is "Nested Folders"
Nested Notebooks is another subject; there's an ongoing discussion here

Evernote has no support for  Folders and no support for  Nested Notebooks

[TheMagicWombat 68]

2 hours ago, DTLow said:

The discussion subject is "Nested Folders"
Nested Notebooks is another subject; there's an ongoing discussion here

Evernote has no support for  Folders and no support for  Nested Notebooks

Are you REALLY trying to tell me that you don't think the Notebooks in Evernote and the Folders in every OS and information storage system (including filing cabinets) in the world are different???

You open them BOTH up, and STORE things in them in an attempt to keep your pieces of data organized...

End of lesson. 

[DTLow 5,745]

40 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Are you REALLY trying to tell me that you don't think the Notebooks in Evernote and the Folders in every OS and information storage system (including filing cabinets) in the world are different???

You open them BOTH up, and STORE things in them in an attempt to keep your pieces of data organized...

Fact: Notebooks and Tags are fields in the Note metadata       

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some users emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees

 

 

 

 

 

On my Mac, notes are stored in OS folder
(/Users/DTLow/Library/Group Containers/Q79WDW8YH9.com.evernote.Evernote/
   CoreNote/accounts/www.evernote.com/1156250/content)
with a separate OS folder for each note

The metadata is stored in a separate SQLite database

[TheMagicWombat 68]

2 hours ago, DTLow said:

Fact: Notebooks and Tags are fields in the Note metadata       

 

 

 

 

 

 

Some users emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees

 

 

 

 

 

On my Mac, notes are stored in OS folder
(/Users/DTLow/Library/Group Containers/Q79WDW8YH9.com.evernote.Evernote/
   CoreNote/accounts/www.evernote.com/1156250/content)
with a separate OS folder for each note

The metadata is stored in a separate SQLite database

Just because you define a dog as a cat doesn't make it able to climb trees. 

The notebooks in Evernote ARE the same as folders in every storage system out there EXCEPT that Evernote won't let you place a notebook/folder/directory into another  notebook/folder/directory.  That would be a lot like me releasing a spreadsheet program that did everything EXCEPT there was no ability to divide in the formulas, and so I called it not a spreadsheet, but a Megasheet Program, and said the lack of a division function was a feature, so people would construct their formulas more productively without using the foolish dividing function. 

I mean, come on! You can just multiply by a fraction if you want to divide, so I don't see what the big deal is that the Megasheet program doesn't have a division function!

It would still be a spreadsheet, just it would be a BROKEN spreadsheet. 

The core of your argument is  Evernote Notebooks are not folders because you cannot nest them. Yeah--and that is the core argument for why the notebooks in Evernote are broken--because they are folders that have intentionally been devoid of a nesting ability. 

[DTLow 5,745]

1 hour ago, TheMagicWombat said:

The core of your argument is  Evernote Notebooks are not folders because you cannot nest them

I  only listed the one fact (Notebooks and Tags are fields in the Note metadata)

As to nesting
- Notebooks can be nested to one level using Stacks   
- Tags can be nested to unlimited levels using the parent/child hierarchy

Also, unlike folders - Notebook and Tag names can not be duplicated; each name must be unique   

[DTLow 5,745]

39 minutes ago, SteveJazz said:

tags are not a substitute for nested notebooks ... Tags won’t work for me

We've gone off topic, but why are tags not a notebook substitute?   

Tags and Notebooks are quite similar; two fields in the note metadata   
I use both fields for note organization

I know that Notebooks have a special purpose in Evernote; to identify notes as online/local, offline, private/shared

[SteveJazz 20]

And, one other example that shows the differences.

If I have a stack with 5 nested notebooks, I can click on the stack and see all the notes in these 5 notebooks.

If I have a tag with 5 nested sub-tags, I can click on the parent tag, but I only get the notes tagged with the parent tag. I don’t see any of the notes that are tagged with a child tag. Frankly, I don’t understand that behavior at all. It feels like there is no relationship between child and parent tags (other than I can set them up visually that way, but I don’t see any enhanced functionality by doing it). What does EN expect me to do? Tag notes with both the parent and the child tag?

Frankly, I conclude that EN spent a lot of time creating a hierarchical tag structure that doesn’t work the way I would expect. It created a notebook structure that does work like I expect (but lacking in level depth). Both are fails (to me). 

I’m not busting on EN. It has a lot of great functionality that is superior to most other products. Nested notebooks are important to me, I don’t see tags as a viable alternative. Net, I need to either compromise with EN or look at another app. I may be the odd man out, and that’s perfectly fine. 

[DTLow 5,745]

9 hours ago, SteveJazz said:

If I click into a notebook, I see all the notes that live in that notebook. I can click on a note, and still see all the other notes in the notebook (in the left sidebar). I can move between those notes and interact with them as a group. Now, if I click on a tag, I end up with a search result of all the notes that have that tag. If I click on a note, do I still get to see all the other notes with that tag?

Actually they both work the same way (edit: Windows/Mac platforms)
Click on a notebook/tag and you see all the notes for the notebook/tag
Click on a note and you still see all the notes for the notebook/tag

>>why does EN have Notebooks? 

Identify notes as online/local, offline, private/shared   
Note Organization

>>Why not simply let us open or close a nested hierarchy? (Notebook)

There's a request and discussion posted here

>>If I have a tag with 5 nested sub-tags, I can click on the parent tag, but I only get the notes tagged with the parent tag. I don’t see any of the notes that are tagged with a child tag.

Child search is actually a feature option in Evernote/Windows

[SteveJazz 20]

7 hours ago, DTLow said:

Actually they both work the same way
Click on a notebook/tag and you see all the notes for the notebook/tag
Click on a note and you still see all the notes for the notebook/tag

They don’t actually, not after the second step I described.  For notebooks, when you navigate to a notebook, all the notes in that notebook are in the left sidebar. I can click into a note, and the all the other notes in that notebook remain in the sidebar. It is easy for me to move between those notes and interact with them. For tags, when I select a tag, I get what I’d term a search view. The selected tag is active in the top left and all the notes that have that tag are displayed. So far, the behavior is the same as with notebooks. However, I can’t interact with this group of similarly tagged notes. As soon as I click on one note, the view changes. I still am in that note, but the display now shows the notebook in which that tagged note lives, along with all the other notes in that notebook, whether they have that selected tag or not.  This highlights again that there is a difference in how notebooks and tags are implemented, displayed, etc in EN. If you want to simply say that notebooks and tags are simply attributes of a note and are the same...then, fine, at that level, they are the same. The problem that I’m describing is that EN approaches notebooks and tags differently. Living in a tag structure for organization forces me into that dimension, and to me it is inferior to the notebook dimension (as in the above example). 
 

‘The same is true in the parent/child example. I want to interact with all of my notes that are part of a group and a subgroup, or sometimes I want to interact with the notes that are just in the subgroup. (I’m using group and subgroup to be generic and avoid stack/notebook and parent tag/child tag terminology). I can do what I want in the stack/notebook dimension.  Click on a stack and you get all the notes of all the notebooks in that stack. Click on a notebook in that stack, and you get only the notes in that notebook.  This works different in tags. Click on the parent tag (which is equivalent to a stack in this example), and you won’t see the notes that have the child tag (even though they are in that parent’s hierarchy) unless they contain both the child and the parent tag. Again, I’m not saying either dimension is inherently right or wrong.  I’m saying they are different, and they are different. Unfortunately, my preference is for the notebook dimension and EN has decided to not create a hierarchy for that dimension.  As a side note, even Stacks is a poor form of hierarchy, since no notes can live in the stack and outside of the stack’s notebooks. In any computer filing system, that limitation doesn’t exist...I can have files (notes) or folders (notebooks) live side by side in a parent folder. Stacks is really just a wrapper without any functionality except for visual organization.  I can use that, but it isn’t ideal. 
 

[DTLow 5,745]

1 hour ago, SteveJazz said:

They don’t actually, not after the second step I described.

I edited my post to specify Windows/Mac platforms    
The new version of IOS  (v10.0) is a little buggy with this - I posted a bug report here

[SteveJazz 20]

2 hours ago, DTLow said:

I edited my post to specify Windows/Mac platforms    
The new version of IOS  (v10.0) is a little buggy with this - I posted a bug report here

Thanks. 

[CalS 5,310]

16 hours ago, SteveJazz said:

Most importantly, it feels to me that Notebooks have more primacy and functionality in EN than do tags. EN is still fundamentally structured around the stacks/notebooks. Tags feel like a secondary dimension (although important and capable). If I have to use tags to create my hierarchy, then I’m working a lot in this secondary dimension. I’d prefer not to do that. 

Eye of the beholder thing.  If one doesn't care about how things are stored then tags provide the logical dimensions.  If one does care about how things are stored (hierarchy in this case) then tags are a poor man's substitute for nested notebooks.  Unfortunately it is what it is until/if EN implements nested notebooks   And yeah, this has been a touchy subject since dirt was brown.  But it encompasses how folks see the world, hierarchy or table.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

On 9/17/2020 at 10:20 PM, DTLow said:

I  only listed the one fact (Notebooks and Tags are fields in the Note metadata)

As to nesting
- Notebooks can be nested to one level using Stacks   
- Tags can be nested to unlimited levels using the parent/child hierarchy

Also, unlike folders - Notebook and Tag names can not be duplicated; each name must be unique   

Putting two different notebooks/folders inside the same "stack" is not nesting. That is as much "nesting" as saying that because 2 folders both go in the same file cabinet they are "nested" in the file cabinet.

Nesting folders/notebooks is where one folder/notebook goes inside of another.  Just because you drop two folders into the same linoleum floor does not mean they are "nested".

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

On 9/17/2020 at 10:37 PM, SteveJazz said:

It seems like this has been a passionate debate on these forums for a long time. I think it is fair to say that for those of us that like a hierarchical structure and the concept of actual filing notes, tags are not a substitute for nested notebooks (or folders). Tags are helpful in other ways, and they can approximate the functionality of nested notebooks, but they aren’t the same. I’m not sure it really is a debate...Tags won’t work for me (if they do for others, that’s wonderful). 

Unfortunately, having that functionality is critical to me.  I got excited when I learned that Evernote was doing a major revamp and had hopes that nested notebooks would be enabled. Frankly, even one more level would be enough to enable my workflow. Sadly, this major revamp doesn’t have that functionality. That’s fine...Evernote has a philosophy and it is sticking to it. I have a need, and I will fulfill it by using Apple Notes (which, although lacking in other features, has enable nested notebooks/folders) or OneNote. 

The Evernote True Believers--at least many of them--will scream until the day they die that you are simply being ignorant.

They don't understand that there is more than THEIR way of organizing data. 

[DTLow 5,745]

10 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Putting two different notebooks/folders inside the same "stack" is not nesting.

Agreed - Stacks were a bandaid solution to organizing notebooks

>>Nesting folders/notebooks is where one folder/notebook goes inside of another

Evernote's implementation of notebook nesting would be parent/child hierarchy
Each notebook record would include a parent-notebook field
(based on the implementation for Tag hierarchy)

[TheMagicWombat 68]

9 hours ago, DTLow said:

Agreed - Stacks were a bandaid solution to organizing notebooks

>>Nesting folders/notebooks is where one folder/notebook goes inside of another

Evernote's implementation of notebook nesting would be parent/child hierarchy
Each notebook record would include a parent-notebook field
(based on the implementation for Tag hierarchy)

I think part of the problem is the Evernote Powers That Be (EPTB hereafter) don't want to admit that their system is not superior in ALL circumstances. If they implement truly nested notebooks, they would be tacitly admitting that, no, they were NOT right all along about tags being superior, and all the users that wanted nested notebooks were not WRONG all the time. 

That is the kind of mea culpa that this company seems incapable of doing. 

The saddest part is that if they simply implemented this--and as you pointed it it would take nothing more than adding a single field to a notebook record denoting WHICH notebook was its parent. The notebooks fall into line, and you don't even need each record to have anything modified. As long as each notebook has its own INTERNAL unique name and a lookup table for matching with internal name goes with each user notebook (already being done), the records ALL wind up in their proper notebook and the notebooks all wind up in the proper place in the hierarchy. 

This kind of hierarchy has been in software since I was using Pocket Filer 128 back in 1988.  And yes, tags can be a far superior way to organize AND retrieve data in many situations. But that is a little bit like a fresnel lens is a superior way to starting a fire over rubbing sticks together--I mean, I've seen people melt lead using only a fresnel lens and sunlight. But when it is nighttime and rain is falling, you better have knowledge on how those sticks work and get to rubbing*.

 

 

*Twisting actually, but you get the idea. 

[DTLow 5,745]

6 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

notebooks, they were NOT right all along about tags being superior

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

Back to the subject of folders; notebooks/tags are superior (imho)  🙂

[TheMagicWombat 68]

1 hour ago, DTLow said:

A rose by any other name would smell as sweet

Back to the subject of folders. notebooks/tags are superior (imho)

That is a lot like saying a screwdriver is superior to a hammer...

And shows you lack the ability to see that you are not the entirety of creation. 

[PinkElephant 8,838]

To nest notebooks EN would have to completely rewrite the code: apps, servers, everything.

If you want nested folders, you are at the wrong place. Better move on to greener pastures (for those who are in desperate need of nesting).

[s2sailor 2,456]

5 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

To nest notebooks EN would have to completely rewrite the code: apps, servers, everything.

Which, as we know, they are currently doing.  In a recent interview Ian shows awareness and understanding of the age old debate of tags vs notebooks.  He also alludes to three big improvements that are in the pipeline, waiting on the new clients to rollout and stabilize.  From the posts on the forum, that may be a while but it will be interesting to see what they have queued up.  Who knows, maybe nested notebooks 🙂.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

9 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

To nest notebooks EN would have to completely rewrite the code: apps, servers, everything.

 

I'd love to see your references for that.

If you can't supply any, that means you simply made it up.

[DTLow 5,745]

9 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

To nest notebooks EN would have to completely rewrite the code: apps, servers, everything.

Evernote actually executed this a while back   
They updated the database, and every app    
As I recall, it was a successful implementation with few issues    
The only problem - they implemented Notebook Stacks; only two levels of nesting 

[PinkElephant 8,838]

@TheMagicWombat Very simple - you just need to look at the current structure of EN, and add a little bit of knowledge about how data is organized.

Currently the relation between notes and notebooks is 1:n. A notebook contains several notes, a note belongs to one (exactly one) notebook. A note can not be created without being assigned to a notebook, and it can’t be in more than one.

Currently the relation between notebooks and stacks is 1:n as well. A notebook can be in a stack, or in no stack (which means it is in the „no-stack“ group of notebooks). It can’t be in more than one stack.

IT-wise this is done by a field „notebook“ in each note, and by a field „stack“ in each notebook. This is quite simple, because you can read it from the respective „object“ as a designated „aspect“ of this object. The notebook is an aspect of a note, the stack is an aspect of the notebook.

When you allow relations that are n:m (which is you open the relation to crosswIse multiple relations), things get complicated. You can’t do this by attaching a field to the object (note, notebook, stack) because any given number of field could be exhausted by adding one more. Plus it is a complete waste of space to have 20 fields in each object, when mostly you just need 1 or 2.

So n:m is done by a linking / intermediary table that lists all relations between 2 types of objects. Depending of what you want to find out, you have to read the table from one side, and find all related objects on the other. To help on this, you usually create indexes that make it easier to read the (large) table with sufficient speed.

If you nest objects, you usually do this by creating a n:m relation, because this allows for a indefinite number of nesting levels. To read this relation between objects, you need programs that are able to follow this „deep“ structure through the chain of relations (pointers) that lead up and down the nesting levels.

If you read „note X rests in notebook D“ it is simple. It is one call in the code. If you read (usually by a recursive procedure call) through a table that links the note through levels of nesting to a notebook, things are far more complex. This means a) runtime and b) recoding this central element, because a note call is a quite normal procedure when looking for information. So it means rewriting the core code, plus another GUI, because users need to admin their deep, nested structures.

If you understand what I wrote, you know that my statement „complete rewrite of all code, Server- and clientside“ is correct. If you don’t, you can dive a little into the theory of relational and object oriented databases, and can then be try to prove me wrong (although I doubt it).

@DTLow Adding stacks to notebooks was done the same way notes are related to notebooks: By adding a field „stack“ to the notebook objects. Theoretically this could go on for ever, but if it is done by adding fields, instead of linking tables, you have a problem to create an index. Without an index, search gets exponentially (!) slower with each level you add. So you can pull that trick, but not too often.

EN did it in a quite clever way: The stack is practically only a dependent object on the topmost layer of the GUI. It does not exist independently, the whole logic is based on the single note : notebook relation. In the search language, stacks play no role. A stack exists when there is one notebook that has this stack in the stack:field of this notebook. You can not create a stack independently from the first notebook that got assigned to it.

Hope this is enough nerd-speak for today ...

[SteveJazz 20]

Two quick things:

First, I’ve heard an interview with Evernote’s CEO where he states that their are two camps of people: those that like to put things in folders and those that like to tag things. He’s a folder person, so - perhaps - he can finally influence the roadmap. I think tags are wonderful, but feel like notes should be in folders and then the tags can cut across the folders. That’s exactly how the CEO described.

Second, I keep looking at Bear (as an alternative App). It actually has “tags”, but I put that in quotes, because they work more like folders. And tags can be nested. Now, their implementation isn’t exactly what I want, but it certainly is a lot closer than Evernote. Net, Evernote needs to raise its game and add simply, nested folder support. 

[CalS 5,310]

2 hours ago, SteveJazz said:

feel like notes should be in folders and then the tags can cut across the folders.

That's how it works  today.  Just without layers of folders (notebooks).

[SteveJazz 20]

44 minutes ago, CalS said:

That's how it works  today.  Just without layers of folders (notebooks).

Yes, but that is the key point for those in the folders camp: we want a few more layers. Evernote is a beautiful app, and I like the new version (although it definitely is buggy). I hope to some day convert back to it.  

[CalS 5,310]

2 minutes ago, SteveJazz said:

Yes, but that is the key point for those in the folders camp: we want a few more layers. Evernote is a beautiful app, and I like the new version (although it definitely is buggy). I hope to some day convert back to it.  

I knew that was what you meant.  To be specific you might edit your post to reference multiple layers of folders.  No biggie.

[SteveJazz 20]

..and, then I discovered Craft. A beautiful app. Completely rethinks note taking with a block paradigm, the ability to create nested pages and cards, and the concept of links and back links. Oh, and a folder system that easily allows for nested folders. Evernote feels like an attempt to polish an old paradigm. Evernote will do a great job at that, but I’ll take the new paradigm...and nested folders. Ironically, the ability to create sub-pages is so powerful, it enables me to flatten my hierarchy and I need fewer folder levels. Genius. No tagging yet, but I bet tags come before Evernote adds nested folders. Bought the Craft subscription; cancelled the Evernote subscription. 

[PinkElephant 8,838]

Good for you - no relevance for me. Thanks for sharing, some users still seem to be looking for alternatives.

[armin3d 2]

So... I come searching for how create more level of nested folders. its a basic functionality.

A way for me to isolate notes about different subjects in my life. work. research. studies. programming snippets.

Tags would work only for some extent and given I'll have many many subjects, there will be a tag overload where I have to remember back which tag I used for specific subject.

I scroll this topic here and at the end, all I see is that this is complicated, this is not going to be done, etc... and suggestion for 3rd party apps. Why isn't evernote is not adding such simple functionality. It is not even complicated. Folder don't need to be really a folder. it can be a tag in background. it can be a string. as long as it work like a folder.

And Now I feel like I have to migrate 10 years worth of notes because evernote is not implemented this functionality after many years. 

Fun fact: when i logged in here to write this comment, Evernote Desktop and evernote mobile prompt me with a popup and ask me to unsync one of my devices to continue using (or upgrade). All I wanted was to write a comment. more motivation to migrate.

[PinkElephant 8,838]

You joined the app when it had no nested folders (maybe there were no stacks at that time either)

You used the app for 10 years without nested folders.

There has never been even the slightest hint that nested folders would be considered (there are technical reasons why not). You were not waiting for anything, because nothing was announced.

And today you discover you can‘t do without ?

OK, here is the solution: Go find another app that does, export your stuff, switch over.

You may not like the answer, but it is the honest advise I can offer you, from user to user.

Personally I made the opposite discovery: Notebooks suck, nesting sucks. Tags are fine, because you can apply them independently from one another - you never need to decide to remove a tag just to be able to add another. Which is not the case with notebooks - it is an exclusive decision where to place a note, it is always in just 1 notebook at any time. I am reducing the number of notebooks created in an initial euphoria, step by step. It is a complete waste of time and effort to build and maintain an elaborate notebook structure, even without nesting. EN works perfect without.

[DTLow 5,745]

On 6/10/2022 at 10:56 PM, armin3d said:

where I have to remember back which tag I used for specific subject.

You have no problem with remembering the folder/sub-folder used for a specific subject   
Why is there a problem remembering a tag/sub-tag?

[TheMagicWombat 68]

On 6/11/2022 at 1:56 AM, armin3d said:

Why isn't evernote is not adding such simple functionality. It is not even complicated. Folder don't need to be really a folder. it can be a tag in background. it can be a string. as long as it work like a folder.

 

Because Evernote is convinced everyone else on the planet is, and has been since the beginning of time, doing it wrong.

And, all a nested folder is is a variable stored in that record's information.  When reading the record it looks to see which folder/sub-folder it should be displayed with, and there you are. 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

23 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

 

There has never been even the slightest hint that nested folders would be considered (there are technical reasons why not).

Do you have a link for that? I'd would love to see someone in a position of authority state why Evernote cannot implement what every other database program on the planet considers to be an entry level requirement. 

Please... share  a link so we can all know these technical reasons.

23 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

 

OK, here is the solution: Go find another app that does, export your stuff, switch over.

 

Indeed. I actually tried using Evernote with my work. Paid subscription and all of that. I quickly found that the tag system was not a replacement for nested folders, and had to abandon it for work. 

I still use Evernote for personal data like the lightbulb size and wattage for the kitchen lights, so I don't have to climb up and re-read it before I drive to Lowe's, or my MIL's address for when I am addressing a package. For stuff like that, Evernote actually is useful!

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

21 hours ago, DTLow said:

You have no problem with remembering the folder/sub-folder used for a specific subject   
Why is there a problem remembering a tag/sub-tag?

Tags are super-awesome--when used in conjunction with nested folders. I know you don't get it, but part of the process of synthesizing information for some of us requires looking at information and deciding what it *means* or relates to. It then gets filed in appropriate folder/sub-folder. I now understand and have properly filed that snippet of information. I might then also go add tags galore to it, but those are there to add snippets of information that might be useful. 

The folder decision is what the information relates to our research. The tag information is secondary associations that might be worth recalling down the road. 

It is theoretically possible to use tags/nested tags as pretend folders. God knows I tried to make make it work, but it never clicked. 

You don't understand why some of us need nested folders, and some of us can't understand how you operate without them. By analogy, some people need silence when they study, and others require death-meatal on at least 5 when they hit the books.   

I prefer to store my Word documents by main subject theme/sub-subject/individual (alphabetical)/date. I know other people who store their word documents on their desktop. As in--their desktop is littered with icons that are shortcuts to word documents. When they are looking for a document, they "know" where it is, and when they invariably can't find it, resort to the "Find" function.

Nested are the former, tags are the latter. 

And yes, I *know* you won't get it. I understand your work-around of pretending tags are folders, but it just doesn't work for some of us. And those whom it does not work for have to just accept that fact Evernote is a quirky little off-brand database that some people swear by while we need find something else. 

Oh--your question--I still didn't answer it! Because mixing your tags and nested folder pretend tags means you never, ever, get to review your information database in a hierarchical pattern--they non-hierarchical tags are muddying up the water. We don't NEED to remember a sub-folder hierarchy--it presents itself when when we open it.  It is crisp, clean, and minimalist. Now add in 40-50 tags scattered throughout the structure, and you have caltrops on the paved road...

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

On 3/20/2021 at 12:17 PM, SteveJazz said:

..and, then I discovered Craft. A beautiful app. Completely rethinks note taking with a block paradigm, the ability to create nested pages and cards, and the concept of links and back links. Oh, and a folder system that easily allows for nested folders. Evernote feels like an attempt to polish an old paradigm. Evernote will do a great job at that, but I’ll take the new paradigm...and nested folders. Ironically, the ability to create sub-pages is so powerful, it enables me to flatten my hierarchy and I need fewer folder levels. Genius. No tagging yet, but I bet tags come before Evernote adds nested folders. Bought the Craft subscription; cancelled the Evernote subscription. 

Sadly, Apple only. 

 

[DTLow 5,745]

1 hour ago, TheMagicWombat said:

It is theoretically possible to use tags/nested tags as pretend folders.

It's also theoretically possible to use  Evernote Stacks/Notebooks as "pretend folders"; only the two levels tho

>never, ever, get to review your information database in a hierarchical pattern

I use the sidebar notebook/tag trees for a hierarchical view

[TheMagicWombat 68]

1 hour ago, DTLow said:

 

I use the sidebar notebook/tag trees for a hierarchical view

I tried creating a hierarchical tagging system. It just didn't work. I know that you won't understand, but the records were *always* cluttered to me. 

[DTLow 5,745]

50 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

I tried creating a hierarchical tagging system. It just didn't work.

Here's a notebook and tag example for organizing Receipts
Stacks/Notebook                Tags   
Receipts                                Receipts      
    Receipts-Car                              Receipts-Car
    Receipts-Groceries                   Receipts-Groceries     
    Receipts-House                         Receipts-House                  

[Mike P 2,982]

19 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

I know that you won't understand, but the records were *always* cluttered to me. 

As an inveterate tagger I'm probably not somebody you want to hear from. If you showed this image to somebody who didn't know EN they would assume some sort of folder structure like any OS has.

We know it isn't only because we recognise the tag icons. To get tags to work like noteboooks you just need to have some discipline when creating tags. It is too easy to create new tags outside of the hierarchy on the fly. I would also recommend putting everything in one notebook unless it a "special" notebook for sharing or having offline on mobile devices.

After you have done that you can start taking advantage of the extra things tags bring like

• the fact that real life doesn't always live in nice boxes and maybe the note should be classified in more than one way.
• the infinite depth of the tag hierarchy.
• You can now easily find that note that you put in a shared notebook but is actually on the same topic as other notes you didn't share.

If EN brought in extra levels of notebook hierarchy that's fine. They just redesigned the code base and didn't do so, so it doesn't look likely. 

3 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

what every other database program on the planet considers to be an entry level requirement. 

Gmail uses a tagging system - they just hide it better.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

30 minutes ago, armin3d said:

Those who say i joined 10 years ago when it didn’t had folders and now realize it. Yes, correct. I started using evernote 10 years ago when all i needed was a simple note taking app. over years i realized evernote is actually pushing me back on getting my researches and brain dumps categorized.

There are some saying why not use tags. Let’s imagine following case of nested tags.

Research
- Migration
  - Germany
     - Tax
     - Lifestyle
     - Residency
     - Language
     - Todo
  - UK
     - Tax
     - Lifestyle
     - Residency
     - Language
     - Todo
- Travel
  - Germany
      - Language
      - Bookings
      - Todo
  - UK
      - Language
      - Bookings
     - Todo

Good luck creating this as it will complain on many levels saying a tag name is already exist with name Todo. with name Germany... 

 

We tried crating tags that were unique by making a long string of the entire hierarchy in the tag names. E.g.

Research-Migration-Travel-Germany-Language
Research-Migration-Travel-Germany-Bookings
Research-Migration-Travel-Germany-Todo,
etc...

 

The problem is that you ALSO need to add the sub-tags as tags. Thus a single record would be tagged with:

Research
Migration
Travel
Germany
Language
Research-Migration
Research-Migration-Travel
Research-Migration-Travel-Germany
Research-Migration-Travel-Germany-Language

With nested folders, opening the top folder alerts you to sub-folders. With Evernote, if I miss a single tag of say:

Research-Migration-Travel-Germany

That record is forever lost as being useful. It is sitting there without being tagged. When I open up that tag as my pseudo folder, it is never going to exist. 

Of course, the people who don't work with information in this structure will say, "Yes, but if you drop the record into the wrong nested-folder, it is lost anyway. What they don't realize is that every single time you add a layer of complexity to a task humans must perform, the odds of error increase exponentially.   With a nester folder, I *must* drop it into a folder. I sit and decide where it goes.

One decision.

With Tags as Folders I have almost double the amount of tags I must add for every record. It becomes far more likely I will drop a tag that should be applied because I must mentally drop the same document into *multiple* folders. 

Now add 1-2 layers to the hierarchy depth and watch the fun! We had some that were 7-8 deep, and just gave up trying to make it work. What should have been a simple record save under any other database program became a nightmare of auditing records to make sure all tags were properly applied. 

Evernote is great for flat databases. For deep ones, you are better off using a laser printer and a Steelcase file cabinet. 

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

7 hours ago, Mike P said:

 

Gmail uses a tagging system - they just hide it better.

You are the first person I have ever met that thought Gmail is a database program...

[armin3d 2]

at this point, it’s better if i categorize my notes into .txt files inside file system folders. windows index does a good job searching them as well 😅. 

joke aside i have tried Craft as mentioned above by someone. it’s very nice. unfortunately no windows or android version. (apple only) but they have a web interface as well which does the job. 

I wonder why instead of arguing tags is best, why don’t just have a discussion internally and add folders whenever convenient?

I am an app developer myself. you can keep internal structure as it is. just add nested folders as a new variable for each note. and perhaps add a new db table to hold name of  folders and their parents. not much of internal structure change is needed. and it will make lot of people happy. 

when customers are happy, more likely they will buy the software and evernote don’t have to throw the premium discount popup every single time we open the app anymore. 

[Mike P 2,982]

2 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

You are the first person I have ever met that thought Gmail is a database program...

You organise and file emails in any email program in just the same way as you organise and file notes in Evernote. There is functionally no difference. Gmail stores data and allows you to retrieve it through labels, search etc. A quick Google search gives lots of details of the datbases they use to provide this functionaility.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

1 hour ago, Mike P said:

You organise and file emails in any email program in just the same way as you organise and file notes in Evernote. There is functionally no difference. Gmail stores data and allows you to retrieve it through labels, search etc. A quick Google search gives lots of details of the datbases they use to provide this functionaility.

OMG--you actually believe what you wrote!!!

Just because something allows you to store and retrieve data does NOT make it a database! And their functionality is RADICALLY different! That is why one is a database program ad one is an email program! 

Using your logic, Word, Excel, To-Do, Dragon Dictate, Adobe Acrobat, Second Life, and Photoshop are all database programs!

They are not.

[Mike P 2,982]

58 minutes ago, armin3d said:

Actually we can argue all we want here. but I hope we do not get far from the topic of adding nested folder to evernote.

Yes, sorry, definitely off topic. I need to show as much discipline in my forum posts as I do my tag creation process!

[Mike P 2,982]

6 hours ago, armin3d said:

Good luck creating this as it will complain on many levels saying a tag name is already exist with name Todo. with name Germany... 

So you if there were enough levels of stacks, notebooks etc to implement this using notebooks you would also need the ability to have two notebooks of the same name which is not currently allowed in EN (but is in Windows for example).

[Mike P 2,982]

6 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

We tried crating tags that were unique

This post is really clear and certainly helps me to understand where you are coming from. Let's imagine that EN announced tomorrow that they were not going to implement further levels of nested notebooks/stacks/folders but for whatever reason you wanted to stay with EN. Is there anything that could be done to the tag system to make it acceptable to you? For example would the option to automatically add parent tags when adding a child tag to a note help?

[DTLow 5,745]

4 hours ago, Mike P said:

Let's imagine that EN announced tomorrow that they were not going to implement further levels of nested notebooks/stacks/folders

No official announcement, but this is the reality I work in 

Switching that around, imagine the announcement is they were going to implement nested notebooks   
My workflow would not change; I've progressed to tag methodology

[DTLow 5,745]

12 hours ago, armin3d said:

Good luck creating this as it will complain on many levels saying a tag name is already exist with name Todo. with name Germany

Confirmed; notebook/tag names must be unique

I use independent tags    
or reflect hierarchy in the notebook/tag name; for example; Migration-Germany-Tax   
 
I use an independent "ToDo" tag workflow

[CalS 5,310]

6 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Just because something allows you to store and retrieve data does NOT make it a database!

Actually that is a common definition of a data base.  All databases don’t perform the same way though hence all this angst. 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

1 hour ago, CalS said:

Actually that is a common definition of a data base.  All databases don’t perform the same way though hence all this angst. 

"Database software is a software program or utility used for creating, editing and maintaining database files and records. This type of software allows users to store data in the form of structured fields, tables and columns, which can then be retrieved directly and/or through programmatic access."

From: https://www.techopedia.com/definition/1190/database-software#:~:text=Database software is a software,and%2For through programmatic access.

"Software that is used to manage data and information structured as fields, records and files. A database program is the heart of a business information system and provides file creation, data entry, update, query and reporting functions. The traditional term for database software is "database management system" (see DBMS). For more about database structures, see DBMS, field, record, file, database and database schema."

From: https://www.pcmag.com/encyclopedia/term/database-program

"Some examples of popular database software or DBMSs include MySQL, Microsoft Access, Microsoft SQL Server, FileMaker Pro, Oracle Database, and dBASE."

From: https://www.oracle.com/database/what-is-database/#:~:text=Some examples of popular database,%2C Oracle Database%2C and dBASE.

Evernote is database software. Gmail is Email software. Excel is Spreadsheet software. Word is word processing software. Photoshop is image manipulation software. SoundForge is audio track manipulation software. Fallout 76 is game software.

Just because each of these might use an internal database does NOT make them database software. The vast majority of programs, up to and including Chrome and iOs use internal databases, but that does not make them a database program nor does it make them "a database". 

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

1 hour ago, DTLow said:

Confirmed; notebook/tag names must be unique

I use independent tags    
or reflect hierarchy in the notebook/tag name; for example; Migration-Germany-Tax   
 
I use an independent "ToDo" tag workflow

Again, only in Evernote because of its flat structure. Sort of like if your OS only allowed 1 layer of directories sitting off of the root drive, they would all have to be unique. Introduce multiple layers, and you can have the same name over and over and over again provided they all reside in different parent directories. 

BTW: As an aside, it is (or at least was) entirely possible to have multiple directories in the same parent have the same name. The OS normally won't permit you to create such a heresy via normal commands for your own protection, but if you direct edit the names it is possible. And when you click on the first one it will open with proper contents, and when you click on the second one it will open with its contents. The "no two folders with the same name" is a convention done to keep people from confusing themselves, it is NOT a computing requirement. (Note: It has been 20 years since I have seen this trick done so it might no longer work.)

Also, if you want to cheat and PRETEND two names are identical, you can always do this:
 

 

[CalS 5,310]

Anything that we can search in some form is pretty much a database to us.  It is a database of my emails readily searchable.  A very specific and vertical data base for without a doubt and not particularly extensible.  But a DB none the less.

I left EN as V10 did not meet my needs.  Now I have a folder structure, use Windows indexing on that folder structure, and use Directory Opus to query that folder structure.  In essence I have built a 25 GB database.  But I guess it is not a monolithic bit of database software.  Though the tool set does get the job done, roll your own that it is.

[DTLow 5,745]

42 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Again, only in Evernote because of its flat structure.

That's not correct     
Evernote uses a database structure, with unique notebook/tag id's specified in the note record   
Notebook/tag name is specified in the notebook/tag record
A tag-tag table supports tag hierarchy (parent/child); there's no notebook-notebook table    
This can be observed using an sql browser in the Evernote Legacy product

Unique names is a UI thing    
Without unique names, we would no longer be able to directly reference notebook/tag x   
we would always have to reference the notebook/tag tree

[TheMagicWombat 68]

53 minutes ago, CalS said:

Anything that we can search in some form is pretty much a database to us. 

The people in the software industry, and those who actually work on databases, disagree with you.

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

25 minutes ago, DTLow said:

That's not correct     
Evernote uses a database structure, with unique notebook/tag id's specified in the note record   
Notebook/tag name is specified in the notebook/tag record
A tag-tag table supports tag hierarchy (parent/child); there's no notebook-notebook table    
This can be observed using an sql browser in the Evernote Legacy product

As I said--Evernote uses a flat structure. If it had a NESTED folder structure it wouldn't be a problem. 
 

25 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Unique names is a UI thing    

Correct--soft of. It is so the HUMANS don't get confused. As the "name" of a folder is simply there for the humans to identify it, it needs something unique. In terms of how the OS operates, because each folder has its own unique address it points to (and only one record/information packet can physically reside at any given address) it is impossible (not "not allowed" but physically impossible) for two folders/directories to reside in the same address. If I have 10,000 directories I have bit-edited into the same name ALL sitting in the same parent directory, and I click on the 47th instance of that directory, the OS will simply open THAT particular directory without a hitch. 

Unique names are a human convenience, and thus an OS is coded into enforcing such, but if you bypass said OS safeguards, you don't break a single thing except the HUMAN gets confused. 

25 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Without unique names, we would no longer be able to directly reference notebook/tag x   
we would always have to reference the notebook/tag tree

If you were doing a Boolean search, that would be correct. But you could still have 10,000 parent tags named 1 to 10,000 and each one has a sub-tag named "My only child" and when you clicked on the child tag in parent tag 666, you would still only get that specific "My Only Child".

And, yes, as I said with a Boolean search you would need unique tag Ids. But that misses the point--the only reason to nest tags is for ease of the human finding them, OR in a ham-footed (too kludgy even for ham-fisted) attempt to simulate nested folders. Implement nested folders, and the need for duplicate tag names disappears, thus leaving you with your Boolean search. 

He would not need multiple tags with the same name if he was using tags as tags--it is only when you try to pretend tags are folders that you wind up with duplicate tag names. 

 

[CalS 5,310]

18 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

The people in the software industry, and those who actually work on databases, disagree with you.

 

As a retired CIO I will leave it to your expertise.  

[TheMagicWombat 68]

24 minutes ago, CalS said:

As a retired CIO I will leave it to your expertise.  

No, you will leave it to the expertise of the experts I have quoted.

Namely Techopedia, PC Magazine, and Oracle. 

Your mistake is in thinking that because almost all software has some level of intern database built in, all software is database software. That is akin to thinking that all software is directory maintenance software because almost all software has some level of internal directory maintenance built into it. Or, more in-line with your example, that Gmail is desktop publishing software because you can format both text and images in it.

And you can print with Gmail, so it must be desktop publishing software, right?

But, since you claim to have worked as a CIO, let me ask you this question--if you were advertising a job opening for someone experienced in working in databases and some yahoo showed up and put down as his experience with databases as:

"I've had a Gmail account for years."

Would you give him the job?

No, don't bother. It was a rhetorical question. Anyone who was that ignorant of databases to think that Gmail qualified as database experience you would throw into the circular file. 

[CalS 5,310]

Leaving troll world. 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

2 hours ago, CalS said:

Leaving troll world. 

I am the one who posted links and references.

You are the one who claimed to know what a database program is better than the people at Oracle...

 

[PinkElephant 8,838]

12 hours ago, CalS said:

Leaving troll world. 

Came to the same result a while ago. While we continue dispersing troll feed, the trillers won’t stop.

[CalS 5,310]

2 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Came to the same result a while ago. While we continue dispersing troll feed, the trillers won’t stop.

 Yeah, I haven’t  used block but I did in this case. 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

9 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Came to the same result a while ago. While we continue dispersing troll feed, the trillers won’t stop.

Oh please--you make claims and I am still waiting for you to supply a link to support ANY of them.

YOU are the only troll on here.

 

 

[PinkElephant 8,838]

Ignore list - and goodbye