GrumpyMonkey

Isn't that conference information from last year? I don't think it is under way for a few more hours yet. I don't think it is a place normally used for hashing out ideas about where the company, so I would expect more along the lines of announcements than changes in direction.As for Phil's plan to end files, I'll be interested to see where that goes. Personally, I think Evernote is tied just as much to real world metaphors as files: notes, notebooks, stacks, and tags. I don't really see a problem with virtual versions of the old physical files, as long as they get the job done. And, on the computer, we've certainly leveraged the power of digital information with things like indexing, smart folders, and tags. I'm a little more interested in less attractive, but much more immediately useful improvements that tackle existing problems by introducing encrypted notebooks, selective sync, and so forth. These aren't concepts that will blow your mind, but features that would make a big difference for users.

@ Sentinel I don't remember reading anything malicious in your comments, and I appreciated your candor in exposing an extremely serious issue that users need to know about in order to make informed decisions about how to handle their data. You are not one out of a 100 million. You are one of two people (?) on this forum (a small subset of users) who have reported extremely disturbing behavior for the last few months. Thank you.

Thanks for posting Sentinel. I appreciate the "likes" from everyone, but I have deleted my earlier post, because I didn't like the tone I took. It was too negative. Frankly, I am also not happy with a post I made a while back about Evernote being "unethical" in its response either. I should have recognized the possibility of a third-party app causing this issue (for some reason, it didn't occur to me that one would be mucking up multiple accounts) and I should not have rushed to judgment on Evernote. I am still not pleased with how things look (I am not sure how to explain why Evernote would try to shush a user about a known security breach), but I don't have all of the information on hand, and perhaps I never will, so I can't really say much. I guess this kind of thing hit a particularly grumpy spot with me, though, and I was a bit harsh. I think I can be a little more sucinct and even-handed here by just saying that I think Evernote needs to do a much better job with communication. I'd like to hear what Cloud HQ has to say. I'd also like to hear more about how many apps are doing this, how many users were affected, how widespread the security breach is, etc. It's better for everyone: Evernote, users, and developers. In this case of poor communication (explaining to us about the leaking of data from one account to another) it is a security breach at stake. But, in other cases, it has to do with changes they make to the service. Generally speaking, users ought to be provided with the information they need to make informed decisions about how to use the product. I've offered several concrete proposals over the years on these forums. I'll leave it at that.

i don't want to get technical (because i can't!), but the model for it can be found with local notebooks. when you move a note from a local to a regular notebook, it gets a guid (i believe) and goes over without any problems. perhaps the developers are banging their heads on their desks reading this. frankly, i don't design encryption software, so i can't say exactly how it is done. however, other apps manage to do it just fine, so i think evernote can call those guys up and ask if they have questions

As I think you know, I'm fully aware that Wuala is not a PIM. My only point is that their mobile app is an example of implementing high security using zero knowledge keys. The point is that it can be done. Whether it is encrypting Note text or a file, the principle is the same. evernote could encrypt the Note body while leaving the Note metadata unencrypted. This would permit good searching. i see where you are headed. i don't think the challenge is encryption itself, which has been done by several apps. gus (maker of voodoopad) is an indie developer and he managed it years ago. getting it to work with existing functionality, the api, and the sync might be more of a challenge, i guess. honestly, i am completely out of my league here, and have no firsthand knowledge of encryption, but if an indie developer can do it, then why can't ms, google, and en do it? it's kind of weird, as if they don't see encryption as a critical feature. maybe they don't get the guardian or other newspapers there and they are living in a pre-snowden bubble just kidding, they know more about encryption than most of us. however, they do seem strangely uninterested, despite their security backgrounds. maybe their former work was traumatizing or something, because en's encryption has never been ahead of the curve, and they always seem loathe to stick their hands into improving it.

@ jm wuala is neither an information manager nor a notetaking app. spideroak has a mobile app, too. heck, we could also include lastpass, etc. if we are just talking about a bit of encrypted text. the trick is to have a notetaking app that handles lots of notes, is secure, and is available everywhere. on ios and osx (certainly, this is not everywhere), i think that comes down to voodoopad, devonthink, and filemaker. if there are more, let me know. the first two are ancient by ios standards and unreliable. filemaker? it is a beast, in my opinion, and i haven't been able to work efficiently with it yet on mobile. @ csihilling why not both? i see no headaches with notebook level encryption. just have sharing removed if it goes into an encrypted notebook, just as it's removed when it goes into a local one. you could make it more complicated by keeping the sharing, but that seems unnecessary for me, and there is already a model of behavior for evernote to work with here (local notebooks).

i think it is safe to say that implementing this change is a significant challenge. all things being equal, why not have encryption, right? the fact that only one or two services are able to make this work on mobile (voodoopad and filemaker?) suggests that it's not easy, but it is possible. microsoft onenote and google keep certainly haven't managed it, so i wouldn't say evernote is behind. yet. i hope they burn the midnight oil and get this thing done sooner rather than later. a simple ui (as suggested) and powerful features sounds like evernote's mo to me!

I don't want to speak for her, either, but here I go: I think (if I recall correctly) that BNF mentioned she didn't receive a response to a test ticket she submitted from her free user account. At the time it was unclear whether free users were receiving support or not, and we wanted to know if we should even bother telling friends, family, fellow users on the forum, etc. to submit a ticket. Now, we know the answer.

Probably the former. BNF has posted elsewhere about her trouble maintaining a large database. It (her duet account) is a pretty kludgy and often unworkable system, from what I understand. I doubt BNF used customer service much, and even when she did, as a Premium member, she probably hasn't seen a major change. I'm sure she can elaborate. For me, if I'm putting something on the cloud, it needs to be encrypted. We don't have it, so I can't make as much use of Evernote as I'd like. Times have changed (actually, we've just become more aware of vulnerabilities that were always there) and it is time for Evernote to change too. Also, if I'm investing time and energy in using a product, developer support for features also needs to be consistent and clearly communicated. I can't have sharing here one day and gone the next, for example. I've encountered too many suddenly missing or broken things over the years (see other posts in the forum), and I really think Evernote needs to rethink its strategy in this regard. Partially, it's about bugs, but it is also about systemic issues as well. As for customer service, I have strong opinions about what ought to be done in principle (see my other posts), but for my own use case,the recent changes have had a relatively small impact on me.

@ JM - It seems inconsiderate to use the Evernote forum to discuss the ins and outs of leaving the service. It seems kind of like asking someone else out at your ex's apartment a few seconds after you broke up with them. See how emotionally attached I am to my note-taking software? I've got no problem discussing what is wrong with Evernote, what is great about other apps, or what other options are available. This seems pretty helpful to Evernote users and maybe even to Evernote staff. Once it goes beyond that, though, it seems like it's best to take the discussion elsewhere -- a place with former users Of course, it's not against the forum rules or anything, so it's just my opinion! @ Sentinel - I'm the one grousing here. Sorry to imply anything else! @ Derek - 10,000 posts just means that I've spent a lot of time babbling here! People with single posts often have more relevant and helpful stuff to say than me. In this case, I'm just expressing my opinion about how far to take the conversation in this forum. I don't know where else would be good to go... That could be a weak point with my suggestion to move it elsewhere.

Hi. Evernote never talked about it, so I don't know for sure, but my understanding is that the local notebooks went online in the regular app, not the betas. My point wasn't really to compare the bugs, but rather Evernote's response to them. We all make mistakes, we all stumble once in a while, we all have to make decisions that might be unpopular, and bad stuff happens; what matters is how we perform under adversity. A company that goes to great lengths to inform customers, even when it may not necessarily be legally obligated to keep them in the loop, is one I am more willing to trust than a company with an (apparently) perfect record. I see a pattern of keeping information to themselves, perhaps because it is too much trouble to keep customers informed. The lack of official announcements concerning the mobile site, publicly shared notebooks, Food, and so forth are only the most recent examples. One day they are here. The next they are gone. It is extremely difficult to depend on Evernote, especially in a professional context. They have a blog, and they have this forum, so they have the outlets to deliver messages about changes, bugs, security problems, and other critical information that would keep customers informed. I don't know why they don't use them. It's a little bit of a stretch, but I see the missing local notebooks icon as another part of this pattern of keeping information out of the hands of users. I don't know why, but rather than present complex information in an accessible manner (a challenge, to be sure) Evernote tends to prefer simply removing the complexity. At various times in the past, we've lost note counts, icons, control over the appearance of the interface, etc. I think someone figured the icon displaying whether a notebook was local or not was "clutter" in the interface and unnecessary. Many of us complained and said it was actually extremely helpful. But, it hasn't returned. It's OK. It's their design decision. But, often times, their decisions result in less and less information density -- lack of functionality instead of simplicity. We lose control over our stuff, and we cannot easily diagnose problems, because we lack the data necessary to do so. I'm sure there are people who disagree with my assessment. And, maybe I am wrong about this pattern. That's just me speculating about the past. Going forward, Beta or GA, I want to see Evernote communicating better with its users -- we shouldn't have to piece together information about (what I consider to be) a major security breach (the data leaking from one account to another) out of a few forum posts by our fellow users. Evernote isn't doing anyone any favors by keeping us in the dark. @derek I am glad you pointed out the helpful staff post. There are lots of people at Evernote who have, at one time or another, modeled the kind of behavior I think Evernote needs. In general, though, I see Evernote (as a collective unit) to be increasingly less open about what is happening, and much less likely these days to communicate with its users. In the past, I doubt they would have abandoned a core feature like public notebooks without at least giving users a heads up. This is something that happens because of policies and corporate culture -- to keep the lines of communication open, Evernote needs to create an environment that fosters it. It's too bad, but I think the lack of communication might be part of the process of moving from a start-up to IPO. No one wants to talk about a security problem at this point, but they also have to pare down the service, and they don't have time for discussions about it with users. They'll drop features, apps, and so forth whenever they deem it necessary, and users can either accept it or move on. Perhaps the lack of communication is simply inevitable. @ All I think it is OK to grouse about this or that concerning Evernote, but if we want to talk about alternatives (beyond just mentioning names of other services), I think we ought to carry the discussion elsewhere.

Glad to hear I am not the only one who thinks this way. I don't know if this is a result of them spreading themselves too thin or not, but I believe Phil said in that article that they have already abandoned Food, so that might help them concentrate resources more effectively on the core services. As for Office, I don't know what to think about it, because it is such an odd direction to take considering their development up until now. It makes me wonder if I actually understand their vision and what they are trying to do. I look forward to hearing more specifics in the future. This situation hasn't raised much of a fuss among the tech writers (unlike a blog post did a while back), so I expect this will blow over. The reaction by Evernote, though, is hopefully not part of a pattern. If so, it is neither good for users, whose data is not being handled appropriately, nor Evernote, which aims to be a trusted repository of our data. I think they can do better, but I wonder if they will. Until then, this simply reinforces my belief that any data you wouldn't want to share publicly with the world right now is best left in your hands and kept out of the cloud.

This is, as far as I can tell, a fundamental breach of security at Evernote: Evernote is taking data from one account and placing it without the owner's knowledge into someone else's account. And, I think it is unethical to try and have affected users keep quiet about it. [EDIT:] I think this statement about being "unethical" is maybe a little too strong, because we just don't have enough information to say what's what. Third-party apps (not Evernote, as I suggested in this post) were apparently mucking up accounts by leaking data from one to the other, but that is about it, and even that is secondhand information (kindly posted by Sentinel). I'd still like to see an official response. I posted more thoughts later in this thread here https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/66103-power-user-discontent-best-alternatives-to-en/?p=304075 --------------- Here is the tl;dr version of my thinking: This is the second case we have seen with this leak of data from one account to another. https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/59327-random-content-appearing-in-my-account-via-email/ Obviously, I don't know the details of either case. In fact, I have many questions. How many people have been affected? Has Evernote informed them that their accounts were compromised? Has Evernote determined the cause of the problem? Has Evernote fixed the problem? Is there anything we can do to help (reporting if we see mysterious data appearing in our accounts)? Instead of informing us about the problem (a PR black eye, to be sure) they've apparently tried to cover this up by asking you to remain silent about it. I understand that impulse, but it is exactly the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.This "solution" of keeping quiet about a security breach sounds quite unethical to me, and it undermines my trust in the company. Certainly, if you use Evernote to keep tax, bank, medical, private photos, or other sensitive materials (I've long warned against it) then you could have been exposed and you wouldn't even know it, so this seems pretty serious to me. I honestly wonder if I am making too much of this, and I don't throw around the word "unethical" lightly, especially when it comes to people I like and respect (the developers and staff at Evernote). When people get together into a group, especially for a cause they believe in, sometimes they do things that they wouldn't do as individuals, so I can imagine how this happened. But, I can't agree with the decision. I'd be happy for someone to jump in here and tell me I've gone too far and I'm wrong about how I've interpreted this situation. One thing that bothers me is that it is somewhat similar to some cases a while back of local notebooks (ones that are not supposed to sync, and ones that often contain confidential data) getting synced to Evernote servers. In this case, the "breach" was contained within an account. Although it was bad, especially for users who trusted that their data would remain off the cloud, no actual leakage of data to third parties occurred. Unfortunately, Evernote never announced what the problem was, how many had been affected, or whether it was solved. I think I understand why they didn't mention their warts, but, from the perspective of a user who used to rely heavily on local notebooks to keep data confidential, I think that was a poor decision. Fortunately, they never (as far as I know) asked users to keep it quiet. https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38259-local-notebook-uploaded-and-synced/ In Sentinel's case, it sounds like they are continuing the same pattern of behavior (a lack of transparency about the problem) and also trying to keep it quiet. Again, I'd welcome any comments telling me that I am wrong and have misunderstood what is happening. This is sad to see.

the former is recommended by snowden. it has zero knowledge encryption and a "canary" system to inform users if the govt. does try and compel them to hand over data. i don't think it matters so much where they are located as long as they are zero knowledge. Additionally, I've heard it doesn't matter where the company is based, but where the servers are located. However, I have no idea if this is accurate or not. this is a complicated problem, as data is often moved through various jurisdictions and across borders without your knowledge in backup centers or in the course of daily operations.

the former is recommended by snowden. it has zero knowledge encryption and a "canary" system to inform users if the govt. does try and compel them to hand over data. i don't think it matters so much where they are located as long as they are zero knowledge.

Dropbox has encryption, but it holds the keys, so it gives a false sense of security. If you are looking for encryption, I recommend a zero-knowledge (only you have the key) service. Evernote's file structure is not meant to be accessed by users directly, so it can be a little less "portable" than other solutions. The format (html with attachments as necessary) is quite portable, though. Mac users (as I discuss on my website) have a lot of nice options for managing files. In fact, out of the box, the Mac has pretty much all of the information management tools you need. Evernote's strength, in my opinion, is its cross-platform integration. If that doesn't matter to you, you'll have an easier time moving your stuff to something else. Or, you could always use something like DEVONthink to index your Evernote stuff.

Actually, the CEO of Evernote said that they are positioning themselves against Microsoft Office. If the article is correct, then I suppose we should expect some massive improvements to everything. However, like you said, it isn't even in the same league right now, so I am not sure how that is going to happen. More importantly, I don't know why they would want to even mention Office in the same breath as Evernote. It's not putting Evernote in the best light, in my opinion, because anyone comparing the two is going to find Evernote completely inadequate for the use cases implied: complex budgets, publishable documents, professional-grade presentations, etc. Even if we are just talking about lists (I think that was mentioned in the article), Evernote is widely known as being quite incapable of the most basic ones, because the formatting is inevitably mangled with any kind of editing. Again, I don't really care, and you won't find me complaining much (if at all) anywhere about the "missing" features, because I don't expect Evernote to do much in the way of editing. If Evernote is raising our expectations, that's great, but they had better deliver if they want to have satisfied customers. I can't help thinking that article must have misquoted Phil. I haven't seen Evernote headed in this direction at all until now. In fact, hearing about Evernote Baby, I was thinking "please no -- focus resources on important stuff like encryption, selective sync, feature parity, or documentation!" The Evernote Baby plan sounded like something Evernote would do, though ill-conceived (in my humble opinion), but the Microsoft Office thing struck me as un-Evernote (at least, the Evernote we have known until now). Heck, they used to pretty much avoid talking about the competition at all, right?

On Android, the best you'll find is probably OneNote. No encryption, though. If you want encryption for a note-taking application you'll need to go to iOS and Mac (DEVONthink and VooodooPad are nice). DEVONthink is working on a new version of its iOS app (and has been working on it for a year or two!), while VoodooPad is working on an improved version of its iOS app (and has been for several months). Neither mobile app is really up to the level of Evernote's in most respects. However, they both offer wonderful encryption / security (in the case of DEVONthink, you can sync through Wifi and avoid the cloud entirely). If you look at the options, I think it is clear that Evernote is not "behind" in this respect. However, I think Evernote really needs to get ahead of the competition and implement encryption for notebooks (I would call that "sexy") instead of trying to position itself as an alternative to Office. I don't need another word processor or presentation program. I need a powerful, reliable, and secure information manager. I'd pay for that, and I think a lot of other folks would too (maybe including some of those poor souls who had their naked photos hacked the other day).

If you are looking at Eaglefiler, I'd also recommend considering DEVONthink. In my opinion, DT is the stronger of the two. It is also the most expensive! You'll pay about three or four years of Evernote Premium for it

Yes. I mentioned the postach.io option when the sharing was abandoned. On the surface, it looks like a nice solution. But, underneath, especially for educators who may (against my advice) be recording personal information about students in Evernote (test scores, homework, observations about progress, etc.), there is a big problem -- you'd be granting a third party unrestricted access to everything. The implications are quite serious ethically and legally. And, it almost goes without saying that a third party app(in beta, no less) could drop support for the feature any day without warning as well, so it is really not (in my opinion) a good solution. There are a few issues at work here: (1) Using a third-party app grants them unrestricted access to all of your notes -- financial records, medical records, diary, etc. (if you ignore my advice and keep them in there). There were rumors of an API change that would fix this, but I am not aware of any actual implementation. (2) A publicly shared notebook is hosted by Evernote, which means it will be around (theoretically) as long as your account, so it is quite reliable (theoretically). (3) A publicly shared notebook can be joined by others, which is a huge benefit, especially for educators. (4) It isn't the removal of the feature that bothers me so much, even though I hate to see it go, but the method of doing so. This unannounced and sudden abandonment of features, even ones that appear to be core ones existing for many years, and rolling back of changes if it causes enough wailing and gnashing of teeth among users (called A/B testing by some, though the term is a little too broad in my opinion) is a loathsome pattern of behavior at Evernote (and some other services) that I think wreaks havoc with users. Personally, I am extremely unlikely to rely on a service in my professional life if it is run this way. It sounds like a harsh condemnation, I guess, but it ought to be taken as a recommendation to behave responsibly: announce and explain upcoming changes to existing features, gather feedback, evaluate it, implement changes (if there isn't a hue and cry), and evaluate the results. Is this so onerous an expectation?

I'm moving that way myself. The recent yanking of public notebooks and the absolutely stultifying inertia in fixing bugs and improving Evernote's very basic editor are doing it for me. I don't use public notebooks myself, but the fact they think it's sensible to pull a feature without telling anyone is extremely worrying. Next week they could remove a feature I do rely on and I just can't work like that. I looked at OneNote's Android client yesterday and it's got excelletn pen support (with pressure sensitivity) for my Galaxy Note 3. Last time I looked a year or so ago the Android client was pretty poor. I did a few tests to check syncing between Android, web and Windows and it all works nicely. It's a big jump but if I can get my notes moved across I'll be abandoning Evernote. It's a shame as I've been using Evernote since 2007, (mostly) patiently waiting for some serious improvements to the editor. The EN Android client has come on leaps and bounds too, but it's too little too late unfortunately. I prefer it when companies clearly explain their thinking (transperancy), set reasonable expectations among users, and achieve them. There is actually more to the art / science of getting people to incorporate services into their lives, but this is a big start. Ambiguity, opacity, and mixed signals don't help endear me to products. I can't say whether MS is doing better or worse in this regard, because their ON app on the Mac (my environment) is only a few months old, and it is actually only the last two months that it improved enough to become usable (for me). In my experience, though, whatever complaints I might have about MS (I have many), they rarely make changes without providing plenty of warning ahead of time, and I don't remember when they last abandoned a feature (the Start button kerfuffle seems a little different to me). I think EN would be smart to rethink their approach to support for features and their communication with users. Frankly, I know more about the "Pfeiffer Collection" now than I do about sharing features in Evernote. I don't think that is good. The blog would be a great place to let us know what they are up to -- I bet a lot of users would be excited to hear about what the developers are trying to do with the service this year.

As opposed to stuff that happened in the future? Could be. Have you seen the Fringe TV Series? They have "Observers" who can see throughout all time, with it's many possible variations. I've been watching it for the first time on Netflix. Fantastic show. Sorry for the off-topic post. I think you might be right! Didn't JB mention somewhere that he has no hair or eyebrows? LOL. Just playing. Evernote is useful for making notes to your future self, so even though my comment was tongue in cheek, it is kind of true.

As opposed to stuff that happened in the future?

I agree with csihilling. Also, in my opinion, ON is really the only serious contender on Windows, unless you are willing to go out and manage stuff using a relational database like Filemaker or Access, or putting together a workflow like I described for the Mac using Spotlight.

Hi Alan. I think the answer to your question depends a lot on your use case, operating system, budget, and so forth. The most obvious alternative if you want something that works everywhere is OneNote. Google Keep is another possibility, though terribly underdeveloped for my tastes. These are the two that come to mind for your operating environment. My experience with Microsoft and Google support has generally been good. On the Mac there is DEVONthink, VoodooPad, nvALT, and BBEdit. Or, nothing at all! I talk about the Mac environment on my site. Plug those names into the search bar there if you'd like.i've also talked a lot about them on the forums over the years. The link below is about working with nothing at all. http://www.christopher-mayo.com/?p=2033 Personally, my use case requires a level of security that Evernote doesn't easily provide (my only workable option is to use local notebooks, and that means no syncing with my mobile devices), and I need iOS reliability for the iPad (offline notebook issues make it necessary for me to have another copy of my stuff somewhere else, just in case), so I've had to use Evernote along with other apps for a few years now. If Evernote had encrypted notebooks, that would change everything for me, because it is a truly amazing service (see below). But, it doesn't, and I see no signs indicating that it ever will. In my opinion, there is no reason to leave Evernote as long as it is meeting your needs now. Your stuff is perfectly fine in Evernote even if it decides to shut down today, because your data is all on your local drive. It arguably has the widest appeal, because it has something for almost any use case, and the best overall user experience, because they are constantly working to improve it on every platform. The syncing is astoundingly good. I could go on. The point is that Evernote is very well done and is likely going to keep on steadily improving -- unless your use case falls outside its parameters (me), you don't need to worry. I have very strong feelings about the reliability of features, and I react quite badly to the loss of things upon which I depend, especially when it happens without notice. Evernote does have a disturbing habit of developing wonderful stuff and abandoning it in some or all of the platforms. I am hoping that the latest kerfuffle over public notebooks will be an opportunity for them to reflect on these bad tendencies and implement a little more transparent and considerate approach towards users when it comes to changes they want to make.