ripwit

Just reading the conversations about "valuation" above. Perhaps EN and its investors are not really interested in the number of paying customers, but more interested in the customers' data and metadata. I have trusted EN with a lot of private information over the last 5-6 years. I have shared data with others. They have never promised real data security (and many/most cloud providers don't.) So I'm wondering if this isn't just another way to get valuation from free/cheap customers - especially if it involves being able to capitalize on the data they store. Tell me I'm being paranoid. Could never happen. Not like google or facebuck.

If logging/debugging is slowing down production apps, the developers should be moved away from any contact with production. I also have run a few companies and have had to deal with new releases put out in the wild, around the world. Where is the QA, the system tests, the performance tests? We all know how Microsoft decided to forego stringent QA and unit/system tests in some of the debacles that led to Windows 10 roll-backs. Cost cutting testing staff usually ends up costing more in support and lost sales.

Just to piggyback on this general discussion, especially in view of the apparent deprecation of tags in EN and lack of nested tags in Joplin. I have worked in the healthcare information world for a while but have many interests overlapping and outside, especially AI/ML. So many articles of interest overlap so many domains that I found a rigid hierarchical structure confining, no matter how nested. Early on I tried capturing notes based on the job/employer I was with. This didn't work as I started to realize that notes from other employers and domains could be useful in all contexts. Duplicating notes or just using references was obviously a kludge. I started building EN canned searches using boolean expressions to pull up relevant material. For example: "tag:cancer -tag:melanoma" would give me all non-melanoma cancer notes. This is an artificial example but it mirrors what I started using. Just before moving to Joplin from EN I tagged all notes in a particular notebook with "_notebook name" and then I copies all notes into one large EN folder. This is what I exported/imported into Joplin. 15,000+ notes with tags intact. I still don't have saved searches (that I know of) nor very good boolean searches, especially on tags. Still the pace of improvements and the ability of the community to contribute to this effort makes me very hopeful.

I have recently moved my 15,000+ notes and tags to joplin. Currently just stored on my Windows laptop but looking at various sync options to be able to access from Android and Linux devices. Joplin does store everything locally, contrary to what @tavor said. It is stored in a SQLite DB, at least on my Windows boxes. The nice thing about having it in this open format is that I can examine it, write scripts against it, back it up - all without using proprietary tools like EN's. I use JetBrains DataGrip but SQLiteStudio looks really nice also. And of course what others have said - Joplin is open-source, has a nice RESTful API, and supports plugins very well.

I've moved to Joplin Notes (https://joplinapp.org/). It has a good import from ENEX. Open source, free, active community. Main reason for me was not trusting an external service (perhaps especially Evernote) with my data. With Joplin you can decide where to store your notes DB, cloud and/or local. Encrypted and end-to-end. Works on Windows, IOS, Android. No web interface since there is no server. I don't know why some companies decide to shoot themselves in the proverbial foot (or other body part). EN apparently did.

There has been an on-going problem with the EN client (in my case Windows) not showing the last line of a note when using bullets. If I have a bulleted list and at the end of the displayable area, when I hit enter (start new bullet), the new line is not visible. This has been one of my major pet peeves for several years. Never get a response. Obviously their UIX team doesn't work with real data/real customers. A klutzy work-around is to just type any character and then back-space over it. Just to throw in another comment I've seen repeated over and over: Please make outline a real feature. Collapsible, moveable. Heck, even OS tools (markdown editors) do this.

That's where I am at, also - EN is a good tool, could be better - but I haven't found something that makes me want to jump ship yet. Since more of my work is in Linux, I actually keep a W10 VM alive to make and view notes. Strange world but still a good one.

Appreciate your lurking and responding. Please give us some beta's that are usable instead of feature-hobbled. I'm happy to try to do my work with a beta product that has 80% of the capabilities with up to 50% error rates. The errors are what give you fodder for fixes. The capabilities are what allow me to do my work.

I've tried a few other apps that give me some things that EN doesn't, but none that supply the "semi" complete environment that EN is capable of. I backup my data via ENEX and HTML and then index it with Lucene tools (Docfetcher is a good one for dealing with PDF attachments, etc.) Recently I've been experimenting with Joplin and using SyncThing to move the notebooks between different Windows/Linux/Android platforms. Not that you asked, but I came from a long history of "todo" apps: PCOutline(PCO) a TSR in MSDOS, Ecco (the best), Polaris/Packrat, etc. My goal is to have a universally accessible (web?) app with encryption and superb text editing. For my purposes an underlying _markdown might be sufficient except for linked images/etc. I don't get on the forum very often, just to vent, but I have enjoyed your comments/rejoinders. What is your feeling about using EN for the next 1 and next 5 years?

Something smells in Denmark, maybe it's fine Danish Blue... I've tried a couple of the betas in the last two years but they were so incomplete that I couldn't use them in a meaningful way - and if you want good beta testing the products have to be a lot closer to usable. Over the last 3-5 years I've made a few suggestions for general usability (not big feature asks) and have not seen any progress. Some of the "guru" respondents seem to be more apologists for the (dis)organization. It's really too bad since EN iswas in such a good place on the platforms (except Linux). I'm slowly moving my .enex (10K++) notes to other products since too many eggs in one fragile basket is not a good idea.

Thanks, CalS. I have long used the Top List view and it appears that the Snippet view might not see this problem. Being too anal(yst) for my own good, I now wonder if the Snippet doesn't pull more info from the servers and is therefore able to keep the lists in synch.

Thanks for that good set of tests! I can't reliably duplicate it using my various notebook sizes. Some seem to work with around 3,000 entries and others don't. I've actually starting to see another behavior I hadn't noticed before. When I have explicitly positioned the Notes list cursor at a particular note (mid-list) and then tried to drag the scrollbar up or down from there, it looks like there is the same lag. If this is local/off-site caching issues it could be part of it but it sounds more serious.

ballyhoo - actually the sound is a good emphasis. If I left mine on there'd be some grunts and WTFs.

Hi, Jefito - it sounds like you have two separate accounts with EN since your Notes lists aren't the same. Could one of them be Enterprise and therefore have different characteristics? I don't want to belabor this unless others think it is important. Thanks --- ripwit

Eldorado - thanks for following up on this. I've had this problem on 1024x768, 1920x1200, and 3840x2160. Don't think resolution is the issue. Yes, as far as I know in 20 years of using windowed apps with scrollbars, EN is the only app that has this difficulty. Must be a home-grown windowing system.

Jefito - this is "normal" behavior for scrollbars in general, whether EN/other apps, Windows/Linux/etc. When the mouse leaves the vicinity of the scrollbar (#pixels TBD), whether off the top/bottom/left/right, the scrollbar logic is disengaged and whatever positioning has been performed is reverted. What most of us are talking about is dragging, slowly or quickly, the bar to the top or the bottom - not letting the cursor leave the scrollbar vicinity. When most of us that have complained do this, the scrollbar follows the cursor to the top or bottom and then when the mouse button is released it snaps back to some position less than the top or bottom. In a 8,000 item notes list, it might take me back to a position 400-600 notes away from the top/bottom. If I am bored, I can keep dragging the bar back to the top with a subsequent snap-back; repeating this will get me within visible range of the top or bottom. The slowness or quickness of the drag does not seem to matter much. Of course if you are quickly dragging you might leave the scrollbar activation area and cause the position to revert as mentioned in the first para.

Not that EN listens/looks/cares about these discussions (which are hosted in their domain), but could we get some type of acknowledgement? I don't know how EN is built but frequently packages rely on DLLs which may, or may not, be first on the search list. I have a lot of application development software on my systems including various versions of Qt. Could some foreign library conflict cause a problem for some and not others (Eldorado for example)?

Also Windows 10 (Version 1803 - Build 17134.165) and EN 6.13.14. I would doubt my own sanity but several others have seen this condition for many months as the prior conversation shows. I have submitted bug reports to EN at least a year ago and they accepted my logs/etc. but there has been no fixes that I can see. Yes, the "But oups..." is how all scrollbars that I know of operate. If you move the mouse pointer outside of the proximity of the scrollbar it releases the scrollbar. That isn't really relevant to this discussion. Thanks for trying tho!

Bug (not a feature!) still there after all these years. In reply to gazumped who thinks the problem has gone away or people just don't care: It has continued to bother me but I get tired of complaining and waiting. I think others may come to this forum and see that the problem is still there and not enter their own reports.

All the solutions that require using the keyboard to scroll instead of using the mouse and the scrollbar are throwbacks to the curses library (24x80 screens.) If the scrollbar isn't useful, take it off and save everybody 10 pixels. If EN actually looks/listens and wants to fix this problem properly, I suggest using some ideas from Windows <gasp> and allowing right-click in the scrollbar and being able to choose some options such as: Top, Bottom, Here, Page Up/Down, Scroll, etc. Of course it would be really fine if dragging that little scroller to the top would make the list actually scroll to the top.I know it's not just a "lag" thing since that action works just fine using the keyboard.

Just to register my pain, also. When something works and then stops working, that is a regression that should be caught in testing before being released to paying customers.

Yup - a graph/networked view of notes would be fantastic. I'm doing a lot of linking between Neo4j and a exported HTML version of my evernotes which works well but is cumbersome. I can also run lucene (elasticsearch) against the exported HTML to build concept maps. These should all be possible from within the Evernote application.