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KyleT

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  1. The above three points are all repeatable and as I say, for me they are in no doubt. But that is what I *observed*. Here's a guess as to what may really be going on. Business Tags and Personal Tags really are two different things, but how they're handled by EN's UI can blur the distinction It is possible to create a Tag of each type, but with identical names. Let's call such an identically-named Personal/Business pair of Tags, a "Twin Tag"(see footnote [1]) A Twin Tag will appear as a single Tag in the Tags view, with the Twin's note count being equal to the sum of the note counts of each of the two actual Tags in the Twin. If you attempt to delete a Twin Tag, only the Personal Tag in the Twin will be deleted. The Business Tag from the Twin will simply revert to being a normal Business Tag (still with its original name), and its note count will refer only to Business Notes A couple of caveats: I did all of my testing within a single EN Business account (mine). Cross-user behavior may be different to what I saw In my above guess of what may be going on, I'm ignoring order of events. For example, I started with a Personal Tag and then tried to attach it to a Business Note. Doing it in the opposite direction may have yielded different results. For example: maybe the behavior is simply asymmetrical and *only* occurs in the Personal->Business direction maybe the direction of behavior early on affects observations later. For example, perhaps me starting in the Personal->Business direction is what resulted in the first deletion attempt of the Twin ending up deleting the Personal Side (i.e. maybe it's FIFO in terms of creation and deletion -- FCFD as it were) Kyle [1] Like the way one human twin in utero can hide behind another so the ultrasound operator doesn't know there are two babies in there! :-) (Or so I'm told.)
  2. Hi Chris, I wouldn't bother going through my full post. Below is a summary of the three key points. For my part, though, I have absolutely no doubt (see footnote [1]) that there is at least some kind of "quasi-connection" between Business Tags and Personal Tags. Personal Tags Appear To Be Usable With Business Notes. If you take a pre-existing Tag -- call it MyTag -- that is already attached to 3 (say) Personal Notes(see footnote [2]) , and you then tag a Business Note with it, that will appear to succeed. You will see: Only a single Tag called MyTag will be shown in the Tags view, The note count of MyTag will have increased from 3 to 4 Combined Personal/Business Tags Cannot Be Deleted. If you then attempt to delete MyTag in the Tags view, that deletion will appear to fail, but without the user being warned. You will see: There will still be a Tag called MyTag in the Tags view The note count of MyTag will have decreased from 4 to 1 MyTag will no longer appear attached to any of the three Personal Notes that we started with Except When They Can Be. Finally, if you make a second attempt to delete MyTag in the Tags view, that deletion will succeed. You will see: There will be no Tag called MyTag in the Tags view MyTag will no longer appear attached to the Business Note that we started with I've a couple of observations and caveats on the above, but I'll post that separately. Don't want another tome! Kyle [1] Because of the testing I did and then wrote up in that earlier analysis. I'm a software tester by day, so I tend to attack things like that anyway, but it may be useful if as you say there is a bug here and needs reporting. [2] For brevity, I use phrases as "Personal Note", or "Business Tag", etc to mean, respectively, "a Note within a Personal Notebook" or "a Tag created by first attaching it to a Note within a Business Notebook", etc.
  3. The latter is a good point, but I don't think it's true to say they "totally" remain separate, at very least not within a single user's account. As I showed, I created a situation where visually I had a single tag that was visible and usable from both the Personal and Business sides. And its note count was the sum of the numbers of Business *and* Personal notes. So those weren't very separate. On the other hand, yes there was *some* separateness in that when deleting that tag, it became clear it was really as if there were two tags, since deletion seemed to get done over two attempts. The first deleted the Personal tag, and then the second deleted its Business twin. So separate, but perhaps only in the way Church and State in the US are separate? That is, kinda, depending on: your point of view, who's making the rules that day, what their preferences are, and probably what Donald Trump's recent comments were :-)
  4. This question confused me because I have the Business version and clearly -- since I've been discussing it -- I have the "nested" Tags thing. So it seems it already is "sorted in the Business version". Hmm; or is it? Although I have the Business version, I'm currently using only the Personal "side"[1] and now @C6REW's question is making me wonder if perhaps I'm seeing the Tag "nesting" work as well as it does only because I'm not actually exposing myself to the full Business-ness of my Business edition. I did a quick check as follows: In the Tags view, choose a pre-existing Tag for this test, and record its current note count. For demo purposes: Call the Tag pre-existing-personal-tag[2] Assume its initial note count is 3. That is, at the moment, exactly three Notes -- all of them in Personal Notebooks, because that's all there is right now -- are tagged with pre-existing-personal-tag. ]Create a Business Notebook called business-nb Add a Note to business-nb called business-note-1 Attempt to tag business-note-1 with pre-existing-personal-tag Note immediately that no auto-completion is offered when typing out "pre-existing-personal-tag" Speculate that perhaps the Business side of EN is unaware of, or is ignoring, a tag from over on the Personal side? Complete the tagging "by force" (i.e. ignore the lack of auto-completion) Note that the tag attaches fine Note, in the Tags view, that the count against pre-existing-personal-tag increases by 1, going from 3 to 4 So far so mildly-eyebrow-raising (i.e the non-auto-completion). I then followed on with: Create business-note-2 Attempt to tag it with pre-existing-personal-tag Note that now auto-completion is offered, so something has changed. Complete the tagging (i.e. accept the auto-complete) Note that the tag attaches fine Note, in the Tags view, that the count against pre-existing-personal-tag again increases by 1, going from 4 to 5 Next, following a hunch (sadly to be confirmed): In the Tags view, check the note count of pre-existing-personal-tag. Then double click on the tag and see which notes are produced Note count is still 5 Double-clicking produces a list of five notes: three in Personal Notebooks plus business-note-1 and business-note-2 Conclude that at least one sense, pre-existing-personal-tag, is a single Tag, usable by both Business and Personal Notes Again in the Tags view, right-click on pre-existing-personal-tag and choose "Delete...". Respond to the resulting dialog box's question, "Are you sure you want to delete the tag 'pre-existing-personal-tag'?" by hitting Delete Note (with appropriate level of shock, horror, and dismay) that the tag has not been deleted But note that its count has dropped from 5 to 2 In the Tags view, double-click on pre-existing-personal-tag and see which notes are produced A list of two notes is produced: business-note-1 and business-note-2 Conclude that my hunch was right and that in at least one sense, pre-existing-personal-tag, is some kind of dual Tag, with one aspect of that duality being Personal and the other Business And finally: In the Tags view, check the note count of pre-existing-personal-tag. Then double click on the tag and see which notes are produced Note count is still 2 Double-clicking still produces a list of two notes: business-note-1 and business-note-2 Again in the Tags view, right-click on pre-existing-personal-tag and choose "Delete...". Respond to the resulting dialog box's question, "Are you sure you want to delete the tag 'pre-existing-personal-tag'?" by hitting Delete Note that a second dialog box is produced warning that we "Can't delete 'pre-existing-personal-tag'. This tag is in a shared notebook" and asking "Would you like to remove 'pre-existing-personal-tag' from all notes?" Respond to question by clicking "Remove Tag From Notes" Note that, finally, pre-existing-personal-tag has gone Conclude ... well, conclude it's time to ask a question. The software tester in me could then have started to get really intricate, but I think honor is preserved and that I've earned the right to ask a question of the forum Gods'n'Gurus. So, G'n'Gs; concerning Tags in EN Business edition (and with particular interest in the implications on nesting/hierarchy): WTF? thx, Kyle [1] I'm trying out Business, so there's still a chance I'll eventually revert to Premium. And to minimize the work needed if I do decide to revert, I've chosen to make all my Notebooks Personal (regardless of content). I did start my Business trial with both Personal and Business Notebooks, but then I found that while you can easily convert Personal Notebooks to Business, moving in the the opposite direction is a bit messier (albeit do-able). I just never considered that restricting my trial of Business edition to using Personal notebooks may hide some Business/Personal Tag implications. [2] At this stage, i.e. before my worst fears are confirmed, it really shouldn't be called pre-existing-personal-tag because that could imply that there really are such a things as "Personal" Tags and "Business" tags. But pre-existing-personal-tag is just so much easier to type than pre-existing-tag-that-was-first-created-within-a-note-contained-in-a-personal-notebook, so give me some latitude, while there's still hope.
  5. Via JMichaelTX's link to Using Tags as Pseudo Notebooks, I read his comment: "Tags can be organized in hierarchies (meaning Parent-Child relationship). So we can achieve the appearance of Notebooks and sub-notebooks," I actually think that's a big deal and it makes me reckon I was being overly dismissive of the non-search-capability side of the Tag "hierarchy". I think what JMichaelTX is effectively saying is that there is an important aspect of the physical analog I talked about that is actually better implemented in the Tag handling aspects of the UI than in the Notebook one. Specifically, the Tag hierarchy may confer the ability to visualize such things as: several sections within a notebook (à la the kind of 3,5,7-section notebooks you can pick up at any Walmart or Target) several notebooks within a binder, several binders within an archive box, and so on That's cool and much better than Notebook Stacks. Kyle
  6. I'm relatively new to (intensive use of) Evernote, which means there's lots I don't know but it also means I'm furiously trying to figure out exactly the kind of thing you're asking about. There are of course some differences in the numbers of permitted Tags vs Notebooks, but that either matters to a user or it doesn't. I'd imagine that for many people, both numbers are bigger than needed and so are fine. That's where I am on that topic. So as I've been learning, tuning, honing my setup, I've been focusing on more substantive differences. FWIW, here's where my thinking has got so far: On the one hand, in theory yes Notebooks could be seen as being made redundant by Tags. After all, in one sense the Notebook which a Note belongs to just *is* a kind of Tag attached to that Note. Or rather, both Notebooks and Tags are different kinds of metadata that we can attach to Notes. But on the other hand, Evernote handles those two different kinds of metadata slightly differently, and to the extent those differences are meaningful to you, you may want to continue to use Notebooks in addition to or instead of Tags. Here are several possible examples (I say possible because I think but am not sure if all points are as I describe them) of differences that may make the use of Notebooks still worthwhile: Physical Analog. For me this is probably the most important one. Notebooks offer, in the way the Evernote UI handles them, a physical analog that can help us as we use them. So from a computing theory point of view, yes a Note's Notebook really is just a label attached to that Note, just like a Tag is. But when we *think* about it, we really think about putting a Note into a Notebook, or dragging a Note from one Notebook to another. And so on. That analog -- just like the folders and desktops we all take for granted on our computers in general -- although simple is non-trivial and can be very useful. And even if you can actually do something similar with Tags (I don't know if actually you can), EN has clearly been designed with the Note/Notebook physical analog in mind, and if that analog helps you then using Notebooks to benefit from that analog, instead of trying to squeeze Tags into it, means you're working more with and less against the flow of the tool's architects. Offline Notebooks. When choosing which of all your Notes should be available offline on your mobile device, that choice is done via Notebooks and not via Tags. You cannot make Notes available offline on a tag-by-tag basis. External Tools. Some external tools may require that they interact with EN via a Notebook (i.e. and not via a Tag) Default Notebook. You can (must?) designate one of your Notebooks as the Default, and that removes a l-i-t-t-l-e bit of friction in getting things into EN from the outside (because it's freeing you from having to specify where an incoming Note should land). AFAIK, there is no such thing as a default Tag. (It's true you can set up WebClipper to "Always tag with..." but that's just a little less cool in the friction-reducing stakes.) Useful Restrictions. In terms of the way Notebooks are created and then used, there are (at least) three restrictions that while in many situations are undesirable, may actually be useful in others. Notebooks Must Be Created Before Use. If I want to put a Note into a Notebook that doesn't yet exist, I have to do that in two distinct stages. First, I create the new Notebook. Second, I move the Note there. This contrasts with applying Tags, where if I apply a Tag that does not yet exist, it will be created for me on the fly. The problem with that second approach is that I may inadvertently create an unwanted Tag without realizing it. For example, the Tag I actually intend to use may already exist, but if when I enter its name I mistype, then EN will create a whole new Tag with the new (wrong) name. For example, I may have a Note that I intend to tag with (the already-created) Project-X, but instead I inadvertently tag it with (the as-yet non-existent) project-X, or even projetc-X; and, crucially, in each case I would get no warning of my error. In other words, the fact that I am forced to take more care when creating Notebooks is a form of error checking. (It is similar to what happens in programming languages referred to as "strongly typed" where the programmer is often not allowed to use a variable until she has first told the program about it. Can be annoying in the short term, but makes for fewer problems in the longer term.) A Note Can Be In Only One Notebook. Often, the fact that a Note can have multiple Tags is seen as an advantage when set against the fact that a Note can be in only one Notebook at a time. But sometimes the Notebook restriction can be useful. And although you could always decide to simulate that restriction with Tags by voluntarily using only one Tag on a given Note still the fact that One-Notebook-Per-Note is *forced* on you can be a good thing. (Ask any programmer used to Object-Oriented Programming about how private members are useful precisely because they *enforce* a limitation on the programmer.) A Note Must Be In One Notebook. While Notes may have many Tags, they also may have none; but they must have a Notebook. Again, your mileage may vary, but sometimes restrictions are useful Just As "Hierarchical". This is not so much an advantage of Notebooks over Tags, but rather the lack of what I thought was an advantage of Tags over Notebooks. To be honest, it's really barely worth mentioning, and I do so more as a complaint about that lack of advantage rather than as the description of a genuinely useful feature of Notebooks over Tags. So, one of the things I (and many others, judging from Google and the EN forums) thought Tags gave over Notebooks was hierarchy. That is, I thought that while you cannot get Notebooks within Notebooks, you can get Tags within Tags. Now it's true that in terms of how they are displayed, Tags are able to be in some way nested, but there is no meaningful hierarchy in Tags in terms of how that lets us search and retrieve our Notes (which is a major reason why we use tools like EN in the first place!). As an example, suppose that I have a "top level" Tag called projects, and that it has a "child" Tag called active. Suppose also that I have a Note entitled Something_About_My_Active_Project and I tag it with active (but only with active; i.e. I specifically do not add the top level projects Tag to the Note). Intuitively one might think that since Tag active is a child of Tag projects, then if I search for Notes tagged with projects I should also find Notes tagged with active and so my Note entitled Something_About_My_Active_Project should appear in the results. Well that intuition is wrong. Although active is a child of projects, Tag searches cannot make that connection. If I want my Note entitled Something_About_My_Active_Project to be found by a search for projects then I'd better make sure I've explicitly tagged the Note with projects (i.e. as well as with active). And that means that perhaps the single most important feature of Tag hierarchy isn't (a feature). And that's a shame. HOWEVER, since Tags aren't really hierarchical, Notebooks aren't then inferior to them on that front are they? Notebooks too have only a measly kind of pseudo-hierarchy -- Stacks -- of little or no use except for tidying up your display. But measly though the Stacks-based "hierarchy" may be, it's really not much if at all measlier than Tags poor excuse for hierarchy. So, not so much a point to Notebooks as a point off Tags. But it amounts to much the same thing. Sigh. There may of course be several more examples (and some of the above may benefit from the correction/modification by more knowledgeable users), but those are what I currently consider as being: Reasons You Might Still Want To Use Notebooks Vs Tags. However, despite all that pro-Notebook stuff, for various reasons my current approach is still to prefer Tags over Notebooks. My current setup is rapidly heading towards a three Notebook system, with almost all other categorization etc being done with Tags. The three are: Inbox. This is my Default and it catches everything coming in via Web Clipper, including tasks getting chucked in from Gmail. Not much tagging in here. ToDo. Not yet settled, but mostly one Note per task (except for really simple stuff. Most things get moved to here after first landing in Inbox. Not much tagging in here either Notebook. Everything else. E-V-E-R-Y-T-H-I-N-G else. Tagging a-go-go. I suspect I may end up having some additional Project-specific Notebooks that "arise and then pass away" (Mahasi Sayadaw's Progress of Insight, anyone? :-) ), but those will be used in a way that's fairly tightly-coupled with Tag use. (I already have that Tag/Notebook coupling almost designed, but I'll need to "play test" it for real before I decide it makes sense). I also imagine that over time, having only that single Notebook could pose storage, search time, and other performance issues, so that may need some attention. But I'll cross that bridge later. On the other hand, It's possible I could do away with both Inbox and ToDo, designate the single remaining Notebook as my Default, and control ABSOLUTELY EVERYTHING with Tags. But deciding on those things are all part of my converging-but-not-yet-completely Evernote Workflow Process. I'll know more about that only once I've figured it out. Kyle
  7. I was referring only to the 14 posts (at that point) of this thread :-) 3/14 ~= 21.5% (my question, plus your and DTLow's initial answers) 1/14 ~= 7% (csihilling's answer) 10/14 ~= 71.5% (the rest) I've no idea of the quality of the forum(s) as a whole. For all I know, it may be identical to that of a pool of the purest Unicorn tears.
  8. As the OP I have to agree primarily with DTLow. After a few good responses, the thread died through hijacking. Prior to me writing this, the 15th post, the thread contained: 1 question. And even if I say so myself, I think it was well constructed and clear 2 useful answers, one by JMichaelTX and one by DTLow. These were great; content/thought/experience-rich & on-topic. Thanks for those! 1 not entirely useless answer by csihilling. This was pushing a little at the edges of the on-topic envelope, but had it been left at that, the thread may have survived[note1]. 10 completely off-topic posts constituting a thread hijack (or attempts to avoid that happening). DTLow made a manful attempt to stem the flow, but it was too late. JMichaelTX marred his excellent earlier opening by committing a straw man fallacy in implying (invalidly) that DTLow was looking for "an Evernote staff member to step in and moderate [the] thread". He also managed to squeeze in a genetic fallacy by implying (again invalidly) that DTLow's position was problematic because it was based on the number of posts he has made in the past. So that's about 21.5% useful content, 7% not-completely-useless, and a chunky 71.5% of no-use-to-anyone meta-fluff. JMichaelTX, you captured the problem well when you said, "For better or worse, we often tend to digress...". But while in theory, valuable-albeit-off-topic information can come out of the digressions, in practice on most Internet forums that is very rarely the case. Digression is rarely better; it's almost always worse. But here that is beside the point. Because this thread's digression wasn't even onto some valuable-albeit-off-topic subject. It was onto the kind of thoroughly boring, hasn't-been-useful-since-the-days-of-Gene-Spafford-and-Emily-Postnews, bandwidth-and-time-wasting, ego-driven meta-discussion in which few if any have real interest. And the real tragedy here is, JMichaelTX, a simple ego-less reply of "Good point DTLow" from you could have rescued both the thread and the reliability of the forum label "Guru". I'd have thought that kind of discussion-enriching behavior would be second-nature to someone like you ... you know, with you having 3,025 posts an' all ;-) Kyle [note1]: csihilling, you said later that "...if someone is interested in creating dated journal entries...". But I wasn't interested in that per se. I made it clear I was using it merely as an example. Early on I said "The question in its most general form is as follows:..." and provided the actual question in which I was interested. JMichaelTX spotted that and re-quoted my primary question in full. DTLow saw it too, and re-stated it in summary form. So those guys figured it out. All that said, my question was long so it's understandable someone could miss the forest for the trees. I didn't actually know about the search implications of not using underscores. So it wasn't too bad that you mentioned it. Or rather, it wouldn't have been had it not been the little pebble that started the subsequent landslide :-)
  9. The debate on when to use Notebooks vs Tags is well-established. But I'm interested in the similar but different question on when to use Notes vs Notebooks. The question in its most general form is as follows: What factors should be considered when deciding which of the following two options is better for storing a large group of many similar "chunks" of data: The overall containing object is a Notebook. Inside that Notebook, each chunk of data is stored as a separate Note; OR The overall containing object is a (single) Note. Inside that Note, each chunk of data is stored simply as a separate block of text A specific practical example might be useful. Suppose the thing being managed is a daily log or journal, where the data "chunk" represents a day's worth of entry. The two options then are: Let the Journal consist of a Notebook -- called "Journal-2016", say -- in which each day has its own Note, the title of which is the relevant date OR Let the Journal consist of a (single) Note -- again, called "Journal-2016", say -- in which each day has its own header (in an obvious, stand-out font), the text of which is the relevant date I've also attached a screenshot showing both cases. At the moment I tend towards option 1. For some reason that feels like The Evernote Way. But I'm not sure I could argue strongly for either. Anyone want to offer an opinion (or point to some reading)? Bear in mind that the journaling thing is just an example. Something like a ToDo "list" is good alternative example, where the chunks of data are now not days, as before, but individual ToDo items. Should each ToDo be in its own Note, those notes being in an all-enclosing "ToDo" Notebook? Or should "ToDo" be the name not of a Notebook, but of a Note, and then that Note then contains all my ToDos? Some considerations I've come up with so far. Pro Option 1 Tagging: Option 1 seems better if I want the ability to apply different sets of tags to different chunks Separating different chunks: Option 1 seems better since with its one Note per chunk, the entries are automatically distinct. Option 2 is particularly weak here since it achieves separation of chunks using nothing more than text formatting and EN doesn't handle that very well. Specifically, EN doesn't seem to have any notion of text structure or even a basic set of "styles"-- i.e. where one can have different levels of differently-formatted headers (a la MS Word and most other modern text-handling systems) Reminders: these are Note-level things, so in order to have different reminders for different chunks, it has to be a Note per chunk Pro Option 2 Visibility of other recent entries: Option 2 seems better since yesterday's entry is right next to today's and is either instantly visible, or can be made so via a quick scroll. With option 1, seeing other days requires opening a different note Number of Note limits: I don't know if there is a limit, but if there is then obviously Option 2 is better. Extravagance: It just seems over the top to have an entire Note for what sometimes could be just a single line of text. That would certainly be the case in the ToDo list example. This is probably more aesthetic than real. On the other hand, sometimes aesthetics point to proper use. Any thoughts? Thanks, Kyle
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