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Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

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Evernote's biggest failing here is not being more directly communicative here, not frequently, but with the issues that keep returning with lengthy 'discussions' like these.

If I'm 'director of user relations' and see continued festering around a topic the company has made a decision on I'm going to make sure a definitive statement is made regarding that decision....probably have it as a sticky somewhere...period.

If it's a topic they've closehe door on and aren't fielding discussion on it, fine ,state that. Discussion over.

Evernote doesn't do well in this area.

Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Want nested notebooks? Your directed to Evernotes statement on it.

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Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Who are these users speaking on behalf of Evernote?

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Evernote's biggest failing here is not being more directly communicative here, not frequently, but with the issues that keep returning with lengthy 'discussions' like these.

If I'm 'director of user relations' and see continued festering around a topic the company has made a decision on I'm going to make sure a definitive statement is made regarding that decision....probably have it as a sticky somewhere...period.

If it's a topic they've closehe door on and aren't fielding discussion on it, fine ,state that. Discussion over.

Evernote doesn't do well in this area.

Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Want nested notebooks? Your directed to Evernotes statement on it. Done

on or now fine,state that.

It's a user forum. We are not speaking on behalf of Evernote. I suppose it would be nice if developers would jump in and justify each design decision. Sometimes they do, but we rarely agree :)

I think that it takes a lot of work to respond to users, and I suspect they haven't hired a person to take care of customer relations, so that developers can develop. In the end, that may be a wise decision, because users helping out users can be an effective way of "outsourcing" work, and generate a lively community. I am sure they have spoken more about nested notebooks somewhere, but not so much recently. Here is something I dug up in the forums.

http://discussion.ev...ooks/#entry9002

Stacks were introduced a couple of years ago to meet user requests for hierarchies. You can listen to a short discussion of it in the Evernote podcast (Evernote Podcast #24 – The Body Episode. December 27, 2010). Here is a complete list of the podcasts (http://www.princeton...multimedia.html).

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Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Who are these users speaking on behalf of Evernote?

Not officially on behalf of, but those in this thread (and I've done it myself...cause we're not likely to have evernote pop in here) who explain what Evernote's alluded-to position is on issues ..like nested notes. And saying: 'Evernote is unlikely to ever support nested notes...blah blah) is very true. But it should be backed up with: 'Here is Evernote's statement to date on nested notes'.

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Evernote's biggest failing here is not being more directly communicative here, not frequently, but with the issues that keep returning with lengthy 'discussions' like these.

If I'm 'director of user relations' and see continued festering around a topic the company has made a decision on I'm going to make sure a definitive statement is made regarding that decision....probably have it as a sticky somewhere...period.

If it's a topic they've closehe door on and aren't fielding discussion on it, fine ,state that. Discussion over.

Evernote doesn't do well in this area.

Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Want nested notebooks? Your directed to Evernotes statement on it. Done

on or now fine,state that.

It's a user forum. We are not speaking on behalf of Evernote. I suppose it would be nice if developers would jump in and justify each design decision. Sometimes they do, but we rarely agree :)

I think that it takes a lot of work to respond to users, and I suspect they haven't hired a person to take care of customer relations, so that developers can develop. In the end, that may be a wise decision, because users helping out users can be an effective way of "outsourcing" work, and generate a lively community. I am sure they have spoken more about nested notebooks somewhere, but not so much recently. Here is something I dug up in the forums.

http://discussion.ev...ooks/#entry9002

Stacks were introduced a couple of years ago to meet user requests for hierarchies. You can listen to a short discussion of it in the Evernote podcast (Evernote Podcast #24 – The Body Episode. December 27, 2010). Here is a complete list of the podcasts (http://www.princeton...multimedia.html).

Not officially on behalf of I know, ....but trying to give to newer users an understanding of where Evernote is positioned regarding an issue.

That's a part of any (wise) company's job who want satisfied users and seem responsive to their want's.

It's not a lot of work...at least in the way I described it. Even if it was, is it not prudent to do so?

A vehicle like 'Get Satisfaction', for example polls the most indemand requests and make statements regarding where they are or aren't with regard to their developmental roadmap usually followed by discussion.

There need not even be discussion on customer sites like that. Evernote can say, the only issues we ever discuss are the features we're developing on our open beta's, but also provide statements regarding those top requested features.

If it's ' Sorry but we have no plan's to incorporate nested notebooks at this time". Fine. Thank you. Done.

It's not rocket science, just simple user relations practice.

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And saying: 'Evernote is unlikely to ever support nested notes...blah blah) is very true. But it should be backed up with: 'Here is Evernote's statement to date on nested notes'.

Or....if users want to see the "official" replies from EN, THEY can just search the board, just like GM did... But...they usually don't.

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Just to clarify, Evernote have never said that are going to implement any further depth in their notebook hierarchy.

Given that they don't discuss their roadmap, I don't see any reason why they should comment on this specific issue.

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Just to clarify, Evernote have never said that are going to implement any further depth in their notebook hierarchy.

Given that they don't discuss their roadmap, I don't see any reason why they should comment on this specific issue.

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Just to clarify, Evernote have never said that are going to implement any further depth in their notebook hierarchy.

Given that they don't discuss their roadmap, I don't see any reason why they should comment on this specific issue.

I realize that...but if that statement isn't in a place readily accessable for those wanting EVERNOTE'S position on things like that, (and many who keep coming anew to Evernote will always ask for it!), then that fact is fairly worthless in terms of this forum, and we can keep fielding the question, answer on 'behalf' of Evernote and continue on infinitely with the why's and why not's of the issue.

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And saying: 'Evernote is unlikely to ever support nested notes...blah blah) is very true. But it should be backed up with: 'Here is Evernote's statement to date on nested notes'.

Or....if users want to see the "official" replies from EN, THEY can just search the board, just like GM did... But...they usually don't.

Searching and reading takes a lot of time (especially for people who doesn't use English as their first language, like I.). I searched, but I didn't see what GM post.(Maybe it's because I search with keyword " hierarchical" ) So I misunderstood and got upset when you say hierarchical stacks are not gonna happen. If I see that post, I will directly ask evernote to improve their hierarchical tags. And waste no time on "discussion" of good and bad of tags and hierarchical system.

And Evernote, please add what JMichael said at #42 of this topic:

Add a minor enhancement to your search engine to include child tags in a search for a parent tag,

Or just tag child tag's note with parent tag and remove the tag when child tag remove from parent tag.

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Searching a reading takes a lot of time (especially for people who doesn't use English as their first language, like I.). I searched, but I didn't see what GM post. So I misunderstood and got upset when you say hierarchical stacks are not gonna happen. If I see that post, I will directly ask evernote to improve their hierarchical tags. And waste no time on "discussion" of good and bad of tags and hierarchical system.

This is a user forum, and discussion is up to the users to direct -- so participate, or not, as you choose. But just so you know: Evernote staffers do read everything posted in these forums, as best I can tell. They sometimes comment, but not always. It's clear that they know about the desire for adding arbitrary notebook nesting, semantic tag trees, and the like, and have thought about it, but haven't done it yet, if they ever will.

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And saying: 'Evernote is unlikely to ever support nested notes...blah blah) is very true. But it should be backed up with: 'Here is Evernote's statement to date on nested notes'.

Or....if users want to see the "official" replies from EN, THEY can just search the board, just like GM did... But...they usually don't.

Searching a reading takes a lot of time (especially for people who doesn't use English as their first language, like I.). I searched, but I didn't see what GM post. So I misunderstood and got upset when you say hierarchical stacks are not gonna happen. If I see that post, I will directly ask evernote to improve their hierarchical tags. And waste no time on "discussion" of good and bad of tags and hierarchical system.

You can search sure, and get a weeks worth of reading on nested notebooks and the fact that they ain't gonna happen. Good luck sifting out Evernote responding directly to it. It's there but a needle in a haystack.

Evernote having it's own accessible(closed to discussion) place on the forum, responding with statements regarding most highly requested features is painless.

Saying 'They don't comment on their roadmap' is true. Even less painless. But poor user relation practice. They can make a statement and not have to return to it.

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Searching a reading takes a lot of time (especially for people who doesn't use English as their first language, like I.). I searched, but I didn't see what GM post. So I misunderstood and got upset when you say hierarchical stacks are not gonna happen. If I see that post, I will directly ask evernote to improve their hierarchical tags. And waste no time on "discussion" of good and bad of tags and hierarchical system.

This is a user forum, and discussion is up to the users to direct -- so participate, or not, as you choose. But just so you know: Evernote staffers do read everything posted in these forums, as best I can tell. They sometimes comment, but not always. It's clear that they know about the desire for adding arbitrary notebook nesting, semantic tag trees, and the like, and have thought about it, but haven't done it yet, if they ever will.

I like to discuss, but not in this way. Base on some misunderstanding and almost had a quarrel. That's not what I want to do.

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I like to discuss, but not in this way. Base on some misunderstanding and almost had a quarrel. That's not what I want to do.

Understood. Sorry that you had a bad experience, but good luck anyways.

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I don't know if it is good or bad customer relations. It is what it is. Amazon, Apple, Ford, Google, Toyota, etc., etc. are all major companies with many customers, and I've rarely seen them offering roadmaps for features. It's nice when they do, and I'd like Evernote to do more posting about their roadmaps, but they're not beyond the pale on this.

They do read, so post an argument for your position. Maybe it will help convince them. See the links I posted to the posts and podcasts if you want the latest word (as far as I know) from the Elephant's mouth.

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I hope others' replies are like yours.Their "you should do it this way" really make me upset sometimes.

I'm not a person who don't accept advises. I appreciate people like @jbenson2 and @JMichael who try to gave us a workaround.

Although their workarounds sometimes does not meet my need, I still thank them.

I already changed my way of arranging notes a lot and I spent hours on it.

Sometimes it's really a pain to make my notes suit for my workflow.

And lack of feature on some platform made it worse.

I just come to asking for what I need and keep seeing people says " You are wrong, you are reluctant to change, you are not not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags". It's like pouring oil on the flame.

Please stop "quoting" generically (and incorrectly, I might add). The bottom line, as I said above is...

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

Those are cold, hard facts. I'm sorry if the facts make you upset. But it would seem it's best to face them rather than for other board users to lead people on by saying, "yes, I'm sure someday that EN will add feature X so just stick with them.", which would also be untruthful, since none of us (users) know what will or will not be added.

I think what concerns me about your statement of facts is that it could be read as "Look, EN works the way it works today and if you don't like it, stop using it." That is bad for everyone including EN. Forums are for suggestions and complaints as much as they are for help and praise.

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I think what concerns me about your statement of facts is that it could be read as "Look, EN works the way it works today and if you don't like it, stop using it." That is bad for everyone including EN. Forums are for suggestions and complaints as much as they are for help and praise.

Geez, do we really have to keep going around & around in this circle??? I guess you failed to overlook my initial comment on the subject in this thread::

However, if nested notebooks is a deal breaker for you, then EN is not the product for you.

First, please point out where I said no one should post suggestions or complaints.

Second, yeah, as I've said multiple times before, if the way Evernote works today is a deal breaker for you, then yes, you should find another app. Trying to "force" someone to use Evernote as it is today, when a particular feature is a deal breaker for them is not only dishonest (IMO) but also probably futile. Users are presented with workarounds. They can choose to adopt them or not. It's their choice. So we're back to...if it's a deal breaker for you... And I think Evernote would agree with that.

If you are so set on nested notebooks that this is a deal breaker for you, then you should find another app.

Fine. If this is a deal breaker for you, then Evernote is clearly not for you. (shrug) To use Jefito's phrase, "That's why there's chocolate & vanilla."

So if this is a deal breaker or makes you uncomfortable with using the system, then Evernote may not be the right tool for you.

If this is a deal breaker for OP, then OP should look for another app.

To point out just few because, (to reiterate):

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

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Geez, do we really have to keep going around & around in this circle??? I guess you failed to overlook my initial comment on the subject in this thread::

Nope... I will however continue to regularly suggest on the EN forum that they add nested folders. If that doesn't work for you you should find a different forum to use. In the meantime I will continue to use EN.

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Hi dropbox team,

have you considered adding the possibility to add subnotebooks (subsubnotebook and so on) to a existing notebook?

At the moment, you can only create a major notebook and add one level below another notebook where you then can add new notes.

I hope you know what i mean. :-)

KR

Thomas

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Hi and welcome to the forums !

EN has decided that there are no Sub-notebooks at the moment. You can create STACKS which will allow you to have a visual representation of sub-notebooks. Here is info on how to use stacks.
This has been discussed here at length already. Use the search function.
Wern

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Additionally, you can use tags to replicate sub notebook functionality. As Wern said, this has already been discussed at great length on the board.

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There are many things tags do not do despite what everyone on this forum seems to have been brainwashed to believe.

First, you can not share the contents of a tag.

You can not export it's content the same way.

You can not decide to make its content local or sync.

FINALLY, for all the talk about being able to replicate a folder/subfolder structure with tags, I would like to point out that that all goes down the drain as soon as you get on an IOS device like an iPad. There it will just read your tags as being all on the same level.

I can't repeat it enough. WHYYY this ridiculous limit on premium users. Just let people organize their thousands of notes as they wish. This really is not cool and introduces sync errors which is really scary.

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I am posting these new findings after doing some tests.

The results are troubling and The Evernote team really needs to address this.

When you have more than 250, everytime you will try to sync a new note it will give you the error and then it will look like it went away and it's now syncing BUT HERE'S THE CATCH! If you go and look on a different device, like your Ipad or the web client, The note itself will have been uploaded but it will be created in your default notebook , NOT in the notebook where you created it on your desktop. So what this is doing is breaking the symmetry you once had on all your devices. Now Notes will be at different places. NOW here's what's even scarier . If you make any changes in that note on that other device, it will sync and then move your note into the default folder on the desktop app. SO that means it is disorganizing your notes ! You will be looking for said note and it will have disappeared and moved to your default folder.

What This means is that what once was this beautiful symmetry on all your devices is now all screwed up by the inconsistencies introduced by this 250 limit.

Another thing that makes no sense what so ever is that Once a notebook is created you can not change it's sync options. So there is no easy way to manage tis 250 synced notebooks limit by toggling them on or offline. And since it does not warn you nor let you monitor how many notebooks you currently have, when you create a new one it defaults to synced notebook even if you are over your limit . It would make a lot more sense if once the limit reached it could only create local notebooks. At least it would prevent us from messing up all our notes by the previously described scenario. I dont know how no one at EN has missed this issue...

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The way I achieve unlimited stacks is by using X-marks in conjunction with Evernote. Every time I add a note to Evernote I just grab the note URL then create the folder structure the way I want it in X-marks with the URL.

Not only does this breaks me out of the limitation of Evernote stacks but I get all the benefits of X-marks too!

I am sure sooner or later someone will create a third party application that does something like this automatically because everyone loves Evernote's storage model however there has to be a massive market for people who want to break these stack limitations. I would pay like a $100 bucks any day to have a software that would break me free of tagging. Personally it doesn't appeal to me because it's not visual like folders.

For the time being Evernote is the 100 pound gorilla in the room and it's benefits still outweigh it's shortcomings.

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Well, yes, a developer can always play the game of: "Evernote has 40 million or more customers, so if I can sell a product that captures 1% of them, then that's like 400K. WooHoo!! Porsche-ville, here I come!!" (this is of course the same line of reasoning that launched 1,000 *****, ahem, flatulence apps in the Apple store, well, for awhile anyways).

Anyhow, the sort of needing to fumble with note links by hand that you describe seems the antithesis of what Evernote is about, which is capturing -- and categorizing -- lots of stuff you're interested in, simply and easily (that plus X-Marks munged up my bookmarks enough times that I have a hard time trusting them anymore). Frankly, there are no third-party add-ons for Evernote that I use at all these days -- plain old Evernote works pretty well for me, straight up. But then again, I'm not in dire need of even more nested folder structures in my life, however visual they may be.

Nevertheless, that's an interesting tip, and I hope that some other folks find it useful.

BTW, I think that the metaphor you're reaching for is "800 pound gorilla". A 100 pound gorilla would be pretty puny (http://en.wikipedia....characteristics). :)

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Hi. I've wondered, why it is isn't possible to make a notebook in the notebook you've already made? I use Evernote for school and it's really hard to find the things you're looking for sometimes. I don't know if it's a possibility when you've got Evernote Premium?

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Hi and welcome to the forums !

This topic has been discusssed here at length. Please use the Search function.
In EN you can create STACKS which can hold notebooks. With Stacks you can probably accomplish what you want to do. You can read about Stacks here.
Thinking for some time on HOW you are going to organize your notes (and tags) is time well spent and will also help to find them later with ease.

Wern

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And no, premium accounts cannot make sub notebooks. As Wern said, stacks, notebooks & tags are the way to organize your notes in Evernote & there is already a lot of discussion on the topic on the board.

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an alternative (Android, PC, IOS ) is Wiz Note...unlimited sub tags and sub notebooks....also loads entire web pages as notes if your saving web info.

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I have grown to be a huge fan of Evernote over the last several months but I agree with the OP and many others that this feature is needed. I dont use tags for organizational purposes, I use them for relational purposes. I'd like to see the nesting of notbooks added so I can orgainze my notes as I see fit. I agree that using tags is a nice workaround, but it is just that, a workaround. Evernote, please add this feature, its the only thing keeping Evernote from being perfect to me.

Those of you who think tags are a better solution:

I'd ask you what hurt it would be to have the additional flexability to have nested notebooks (more than one level deep). You would presumably still be able to use tags if you prefer, so why not support this additional flexability for those of us who prefer to organize differently than you?

Thanks,

Marshall

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I have grown to be a huge fan of Evernote over the last several months but I agree with the OP and many others that this feature is needed. I dont use tags for organizational purposes, I use them for relational purposes. I'd like to see the nesting of notbooks added so I can orgainze my notes as I see fit. I agree that using tags is a nice workaround, but it is just that, a workaround. Evernote, please add this feature, its the only thing keeping Evernote from being perfect to me.

Those of you who think tags are a better solution:

I'd ask you what hurt it would be to have the additional flexability to have nested notebooks (more than one level deep). You would presumably still be able to use tags if you prefer, so why not support this additional flexability for those of us who prefer to organize differently than you?

Thanks,

Marshall

Funny b/c it really doesn't matter what "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" think. What matters is how Evernote functions. The way EN has functioned since it's introduction in early 2008 up to & including today is no sub/nested notebooks. It doesn't appear this will change any time soon. As for me, I find EN invaluable and prefer to spend my time using as it is (and really, I've yet to find a use care where tags don't function similarly to sub notebooks) rather than boycott/protest a feature that may or may not ever appear. If an app works for me, great. If not, I go find one that will. As Jefito says, that's why there's chocolate & vanilla.

And if you think sub notebooks are so invaluable, why would you possibly need to try to get those who are ok w/o subnotebooks to support your request?

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I have grown to be a huge fan of Evernote over the last several months but I agree with the OP and many others that this feature is needed. I dont use tags for organizational purposes, I use them for relational purposes. I'd like to see the nesting of notbooks added so I can orgainze my notes as I see fit. I agree that using tags is a nice workaround, but it is just that, a workaround. Evernote, please add this feature, its the only thing keeping Evernote from being perfect to me.

Those of you who think tags are a better solution:

I'd ask you what hurt it would be to have the additional flexability to have nested notebooks (more than one level deep). You would presumably still be able to use tags if you prefer, so why not support this additional flexability for those of us who prefer to organize differently than you?

Thanks,

Marshall

Funny b/c it really doesn't matter what "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" think. What matters is how Evernote functions. The way EN has functioned since it's introduction in early 2008 up to & including today is no sub/nested notebooks. It doesn't appear this will change any time soon. As for me, I find EN invaluable and prefer to spend my time using as it is (and really, I've yet to find a use care where tags don't function similarly to sub notebooks) rather than boycott/protest a feature that may or may not ever appear. If an app works for me, great. If not, I go find one that will. As Jefito says, that's why there's chocolate & vanilla.

And if you think sub notebooks are so invaluable, why would you possibly need to try to get those who are ok w/o subnotebooks to support your request?

I didn't mean to imply that I'm unhappy with Evernote. I LOVE Evernote :) I just think it is missing this one feature.

But to me, it seems that many in this thread aren't interested in this feature to the point of suggesting to people like myself to just live with it the way it is. I take a different approach. If features are requested by others, that I dont need, I guess I wouldn't lobby for those features as you said, but I also wouldn't tell the people who want those features to just live with it the way it is because I recognize their needs are different that mine. And additionally, why is it so bad to ask software developers for new features? I am a software developer and I delight in giving my users features that make thier experience better.

I am not sure why you think I am boycotting or protesting. I'm just asking for something I think would make the app better. No way I'm moving on to another app because of this, Evernote is too awesome!

Also, the quote of mine you mentioned "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" was not worded very well. I should have said "those of you who find tags a better solution." I realize the way it is worded might make you think that I think tag people are wrong somehow, which I do not :)

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but I also wouldn't tell the people who want those features to just live with it the way it is because I recognize their needs are different that mine.

Well, I don't know what you expect then. This is a user's forum & we don't write this code. We don't control Evernote's priority list. So there really is no other answer other than for us to tell you to use a work around or adapt & use the software as it is or find something else. It's really that simple. Anything else would be misleading, unfair and/or a lie. It's that way with every piece of software, that is not your own code. If it doesn't work for you, then you either adapt or find another app.

And additionally, why is it so bad to ask software developers for new features?

Please point out where anyone has told you it's bad to ask for new features. I'm pretty sure no one did.

I didn't mean to imply that I'm unhappy with Evernote. I LOVE Evernote :)

I agree with you that Evernote is great. :)

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I agree with lpr completely. This issue would simply go away if there were no folder limits. If it costs more to provide them, just charge a fair price. That's what all online storage services do anyway. I really, really, really, don't get why there is a folder limit when there is all that storage space available. All these workarounds with tagging, etc., do not address how my company needs to work. It's no doubt my own fault.... a lack of research on my part....but I got my whole company involved in using Evernote without realizing we were going to reach a folder limit. Sharing folders is critical to our sales team which is spread out up and down the coast. After researching some other options, we had decided on Evernote BECAUSE we could share folders. We experimented with the tagging for a while at first, but being able to share a folder proved to be the only way that actually works for us. Now...suddenly...we can't create any more shared folders. I admit...My bad. So sadly...goodbye Evernote...hello DropBox.....or whatever the best equivilant is.

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I agree with lpr completely. This issue would simply go away if there were no folder limits. If it costs more to provide them, just charge a fair price. That's what all online storage services do anyway. I really, really, really, don't get why there is a folder limit when there is all that storage space available. All these workarounds with tagging, etc., do not address how my company needs to work. It's no doubt my own fault.... a lack of research on my part....but I got my whole company involved in using Evernote without realizing we were going to reach a folder limit. Sharing folders is critical to our sales team which is spread out up and down the coast. After researching some other options, we had decided on Evernote BECAUSE we could share folders. We experimented with the tagging for a while at first, but being able to share a folder proved to be the only way that actually works for us. Now...suddenly...we can't create any more shared folders. I admit...My bad. So sadly...goodbye Evernote...hello DropBox.....or whatever the best equivilant is.

Comparing Evernote to Dropbox is comparing oranges to apples. They are similar in that they are cloud services. Other than that, they are different. Evernote is a database of notes & since I'm guessing it would require a major overhaul of all the existing Evernote clients & the service, it may well be that to cover their costs, they would have to charge something like several hundred dollars a year rather than $45 (or free for most users.)

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"Comparing Evernote to Dropbox is comparing oranges to apples".........

I wasn't comparing Evernote to Dropbox at all. I am looking for a way to work with my sales team that allows us all to view, add to, and edit, files, no matter who first entered them. Evernote was working fine until I ran into the folder limit. I frankly haven't found any other option that suits us perfectly, but at least in Dropbox, I can share all the folders and I don't have to worry about limits. If I need more storage, I just up the limit. In an earlier post, jbenson2 said "A word of caution – many of the Evernote power users have found fewer notebooks are more useful than many notebooks." Well, the opposite is also true.....there are many Evernote users who heavily depend on folders as their primary structure, since they can share the folders with anyone. With just a little searching, I have found several threads where this is a big issue. It seems that Evernote is pushing the tagging strategy on everyone regardless of what might actually work better. For my company, the shared folder structure absolutely works better than tags. If they won't up the folder limit, I have to do something else.

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@rgp: While tagging is indeed an important part of the Evernote organizational toolset (I couldn't/wouldn't use Evernote without them), notebooks (there are no folders in Evernote) are also, as noted earlier in the thread. Good use of Evernote requires a user to find a balance. If you cannot or will not use tags, and you need more notebooks than Evernote allows, then unfortunately it may not be the product for you, at least at this time.

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The tagging aspect of Evernote is simply a way of classifying or categorizing a note. That is great for making searches, but it is not the same capability as a "Notebook", which is essentially nothing more than a folder system. In MS Outlook, they allow you to create folders to classify or categorize the emails you want to store. Google's version of this is called "Labels". Both of these are merely the same thing - folders serving as categories. It is specifically the shared "notebook" system in Evernote that is attractive to a lot of users, especially those with many different individuals or teams who need access to the same space. It is a much more familiar and simpler system for most people to use, especially given that you can't share tags the way you can share notebooks.

You mentioned..... "if you cannot or will not use tags...." suggesting that the problem is on my end. Wrong assumption. I was using Evernote happily until 2 days ago when I hit the brick wall of notebook limits. My team loved the system we had set up, and it was working perfectly for everyone. Earlier, we had experimented with making the use of tags the primary way of getting things done, and NO ONE in my entire company thought that it was simpler than using the notebooks as the primary structure. And as I have stated, there are a number of threads discussing this issue, and I am not the only one dissatisfied with this limitation. I went to these forums hoping to find that there might be something in the works to end the limitations on notebooks, or even to allow me to upgrade to a different level of service. Instead what I have found is a lot statements promoting the thought that I'm most likely the problem...and that I'm really not using Evernote correctly. Hmmmm......so, you're right, it evidently is not the product for me.

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I don't think anyone is saying that you aren't using Evernote correctly.

But, if you want to use Evernote now then you have to adapt to the restrictions that the service has whether that is individual note size, monthly uploads, number of notebooks or whatever.

Evernote don't discuss their roadmap or release strategy and I'd guess that the current notebook limit is not based on an arbitrary number but more likely on an architectural or design constraint so it's impossible to know whether a change is around the corner or 2 years away.

So, rationalise your notebooks, tag what you can and make it work for you, or don't, go ahead and pick something else. Freedom of choice is a great thing.

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Freedom of choice is great...but unfortunately that is not exactly what this is. My current frustration is based on the investment and the amount of work we have put in Evernote to date that is all, now, going to be wasted, as it all has to be moved or duplicated into a service that doesn't have this limitation. I freely admit that it was my own lack of research that allowed me to get caught by surprise with the notebook limitations. So I have no one to blame but myself in the end. Frankly, it was easy to assume that Evernote would allow growth...as in fact, they promote that idea a lot......just like most other online storage services. The fact that they don't allow growth in this one basic area was easy to miss, and for that very reason is frustrating.........absolutely not something I expected. And I am not the only one who has missed this,as is evidenced by a number of other threads on this subject. Notebook limitation is not one of their main headlines when they are promoting the product. And, clearly, if I had caught that fact earlier, I would have realized that this was not the service for my company's growth. Again...my bad.

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The tagging aspect of Evernote is simply a way of classifying or categorizing a note. That is great for making searches, but it is not the same capability as a "Notebook", which is essentially nothing more than a folder system. In MS Outlook, they allow you to create folders to classify or categorize the emails you want to store. Google's version of this is called "Labels". Both of these are merely the same thing - folders serving as categories. It is specifically the shared "notebook" system in Evernote that is attractive to a lot of users, especially those with many different individuals or teams who need access to the same space. It is a much more familiar and simpler system for most people to use, especially given that you can't share tags the way you can share notebooks.

Here are some pretty well understood facts:

  • Notebooks are not the same as tags: A note belongs to exactly one notebook; a note can have multiple tags.
  • Evernote tags == Outlook Categories == GMail Labels. However Outlook's Categories and GMail's Labels are not folder systems. Both Outlook and GMail have separate folder systems, so you can mix'n'match, just like with Evernote (though Evernote's notebooks have the also-well-known properties of being one level deep, albeit organizable in stacks). Tags, Labels and Categories all function like adjectives.
  • Folders are more familiar, it's true, but not necessarily simpler, particularly when you try to scale them to larger systems of disparate items. My old example of classifying a red ball is a case in point; do I put it in the 'Red' folder or the 'Spherical' folder or the 'Toy' folder? It's not something that has a single easy answer, whereas it's pretty simple to describe it using tags. And tags are also quite familiar, if you understand them as simple adjectives or labels. I'd guess that most people learn adjectives before they learn strict hierarchies.

The sharing bit is not as familiar to me, but as I understand it, a person who has a notebook shared to them can use existing tags in the sharer to apply to a note in the folder. As far as I can tell, that would make those tags 'shared', in some sense. They don't share in the same way as folders do; they just come along for the ride. I would gladly be corrected in this case if I'm wrong, though -- I don't use notebook sharing to any serious extent.

You mentioned..... "if you cannot or will not use tags...." suggesting that the problem is on my end. Wrong assumption.

That might have been a little ambiguous: the 'you' merely refers to the general Evernote user. It's been my experience in dealing with Evernote users of all stripes, some have difficulty conceptualizing tags, some just will not use them, for reasons of their own.

I was using Evernote happily until 2 days ago when I hit the brick wall of notebook limits. My team loved the system we had set up, and it was working perfectly for everyone. Earlier, we had experimented with making the use of tags the primary way of getting things done, and NO ONE in my entire company thought that it was simpler than using the notebooks as the primary structure. And as I have stated, there are a number of threads discussing this issue, and I am not the only one dissatisfied with this limitation. I went to these forums hoping to find that there might be something in the works to end the limitations on notebooks, or even to allow me to upgrade to a different level of service.
I went to these forums hoping to find that there might be something in the works to end the limitations on notebooks, or even to allow me to upgrade to a different level of service. Instead what I have found is a lot statements promoting the thought that I'm most likely the problem...and that I'm really not using Evernote correctly. Hmmmm......so, you're right, it evidently is not the product for me.

First thing: Evernote doesn't typically reveal their plans in advance of release, save for beta clients. There are no secret tricks, no super-premier levels, only 250 notebooks, and we can only deal with Evernote as it is, not as we wish it would be.

Second, nobody's really saying that you're using Evernote incorrectly; there's a limitation that you've bumped up against. It's not clear to me whether mixing in tags would help you alleviate the problem, or not (I reiterate that I am not a sharing expert). I only know what you yourself said: that you and your team preferred notebooks over tags. If they won't help you solve your problem and you really, really, really need 250 notebooks, then there really is no other conclusion at this time: Evernote is not the product for you. That's not the same thing as saying that you're using it incorrectly, but you are attempting to use it in excess of its limitations, which you now know.

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  • Evernote tags == Outlook Categories == GMail Labels. However Outlook's Categories and GMail's Labels are not folder systems. Both Outlook and GMail have separate folder systems, so you can mix'n'match, just like with Evernote (though Evernote's notebooks have the also-well-known properties of being one level deep, albeit organizable in stacks). Tags, Labels and Categories all function like adjectives.
  • Folders are more familiar, it's true, but not necessarily simpler, particularly when you try to scale them to larger systems of disparate items. My old example of classifying a red ball is a case in point; do I put it in the 'Red' folder or the 'Spherical' folder or the 'Toy' folder? It's not something that has a single easy answer, whereas it's pretty simple to describe it using tags. And tags are also quite familiar, if you understand them as simple adjectives or labels. I'd guess that most people learn adjectives before they learn strict hierarchies.

I think I have to disagree with you slightly on the folder systems in Outlook and Gmail. If you look at that structure on your screen, they both look and operate exactly as your normal folder system on your hard drive. I can even put folders inside of other folders in both these programs. Specifically it is this appearance and familiarity that makes them so simple to use. And in spite of the differences in their terminology, my Outlook folders and sub-folders sync perfectly with Gmail's labels. Outlook then has additional CATEGORIES that you can use, and these are more similar to Evernote's Tags.

Evernote's combination of tags and notebooks work well together, but when many users are involved who all need access to the same notebook, how can more tagging help? We tried it all, and tagging is not the answer. A folder structure may not always be simpler, but SHARED folders (notebooks) are the only thing that work across many desktops and mobile smartphones. Under that scenario, tagging is not simpler at all. Unlimited notebooks is the answer for my company, and probably any other companies who need what we need.

I am not bashing Evernote. We love it, and it was working well for us. I just ran out of notebooks.

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I think I have to disagree with you slightly on the folder systems in Outlook and Gmail. If you look at that structure on your screen, they both look and operate exactly as your normal folder system on your hard drive. I can even put folders inside of other folders in both these programs. Specifically it is this appearance and familiarity that makes them so simple to use. And in spite of the differences in their terminology, my Outlook folders and sub-folders sync perfectly with Gmail's labels. Outlook then has additional CATEGORIES that you can use, and these are more similar to Evernote's Tags.

One note: what you quoted from me ("Evernote tags == Outlook Categories == GMail Labels") describes Outlook's categories, not its folder system a wholly separate mechanism. More on this follows.

Maybe there's some terminology confusion going on here. When I speak of folder systems, I am describing a storage mechanism. Folders typically tend to present a system whereby you store an object in exactly one place (and yes, I understand that some folder systems have ways of making it appear that an object can appear in more than one folder, via links or what not). Whereas tags (or labels or categories or keywords) are a description mechanism; they present a way of describing an object. In folder systems, there is typically exactly one place where you store an object, whereas you can typically apply multiple labels to a single object. To find an object in a folder system, you need to know where it is in the tree (though a lot of folder systems have ways of finding objects by describing their content, e.g. Searchlight, Windows desktop search, etc.). To find an object in a tagged system, you need to know how it's tagged (in Evernote and other systems, you can also search by describing their content as well).

Not all hierarchically presented systems are folder systems; meanwhile not all folder systems present arbitrarily nestable hierarchies. So:

Outlook has categories, and it has folders. Outlook's categories are not folder systems; they actually behave a lot like Evernote tags; they do not operate like a folder on your hard drive.

GMail has labels (I think that I erred in claiming that they also have a folder system; I went back and took a closer look). GMail's labels behave a lot like Evernote tags. When I say a lot, I mean this: if you click on a label in the left-hand column, you get emails with that label, and not emails with its sublabels (unless an email is explicitly also labelled with that sublabel). This is almost exactly like Evernote's UI behavior.

Evernote's notebooks are like folders. Each note goes into exactly one notebook.

Evernote's combination of tags and notebooks work well together, but when many users are involved who all need access to the same notebook, how can more tagging help?

I don't know the problem that you are trying to solve. If you are trying to implement a permissions scheme (e.g., Pat has access to notebooks A and B but not C, while Chris has access to A and C but not B), I can see that that wouldn't work; it's just not designed for that and it wouldn't scale over a large number of users. Other problems might be more tractable.

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I just downloaded v. 5.0 (I never owned a previous version). I am still deciding if I want to really rely on Evernote to store all of my information.

I understand how to make a stack, but I need to create stacks within stacks. Am I correct that this cannot be done? If so, it is a deal-breaker. Imagine your computer operating system not allowing you to nest folders more than one level?

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You're correct. Notebooks can go into stacks but stacks can't go into other stacks.

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Welcome to the forums. It's a bit of a perennial topic round here, but tardis is on point. There are only three "levels" of traditional hierarchy within Evernote--Note, Notebook, Stacks. While some users move in the direction of a traditional file system (with lots of notebooks) you'll see plenty of argument in favor of a strong tagging/search/titling regime around here.

Personally, I have about 20 notebooks with only 5 I use regularly. The only stack I have is one for all notebooks shared with me. Which I am loving in the new V5 client. I think the combination of all notebooks, shared included, into one notebook area is one of the best facets of V5, and hasn't received half as much attention as say shortcuts.

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I just downloaded v. 5.0 (I never owned a previous version). I am still deciding if I want to really rely on Evernote to store all of my information.

I understand how to make a stack, but I need to create stacks within stacks. Am I correct that this cannot be done? If so, it is a deal-breaker. Imagine your computer operating system not allowing you to nest folders more than one level?

I use hierarchical tags to achieve this. I only have 3-4 notebooks, but I have many many levels of tags.

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Am I correct that this cannot be done? If so, it is a deal-breaker. Imagine your computer operating system not allowing you to nest folders more than one level?

Although I'm PC, the more notes/images/documents I acquire, I've found the folder system to be very, very limiting. Jefito's 'red, round ball' is a perfect example, IMO.

"Easy example. I have a red ball. Using a strictly hierarchical classification system, where does that ball go? In the tree under Toys? Under Things That Are Round? Or maybe under Things That Are Red? I don't think that this fits nicely into a tree structure, yet it seems perfectly suited for tags (e.g., "red", "round", "toy"). "

People like to say that the tag system works better if you have only a few notes & that you need sub notebooks if you have a lot of notes. IMO & IME, the reverse is true. The more notes you have the more limiting/prohibitive/harder-to-find-what-you're-looking-for a nested folder system is.

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Am I correct that this cannot be done? If so, it is a deal-breaker. Imagine your computer operating system not allowing you to nest folders more than one level?

Although I'm PC, the more notes/images/documents I acquire, I've found the folder system to be very, very limiting. Jefito's 'red, round ball' is a perfect example, IMO.

"Easy example. I have a red ball. Using a strictly hierarchical classification system, where does that ball go? In the tree under Toys? Under Things That Are Round? Or maybe under Things That Are Red? I don't think that this fits nicely into a tree structure, yet it seems perfectly suited for tags (e.g., "red", "round", "toy"). "

People like to say that the tag system works better if you have only a few notes & that you need sub notebooks if you have a lot of notes. IMO & IME, the reverse is true. The more notes you have the more limiting/prohibitive/harder-to-find-what-you're-looking-for a nested folder system is.

It is very much a function of what you do with EN. I am an architect and I track info by projects. If I have a drawing of an operating room for Project A, I put it in the Project A notebook. That is one quick easy step. Later I may come back and tag it as "Surgery" so that I can search for all of the operating rooms across all of the projects. In the mean time I can quickly look at my Project A folder and see the thumbnails of all of the images in that project. I understand that I could make a tag for Project A as well but I am much more comfortable with nested notebooks in a project stack.

Hughjc

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I too need the functionality of sub-notebooks. As a project management consultant I work for many companies and have clients under those companies who have various projects. Evernote has become significantly less useful without this ability. While your search capabilities are fast it is an extra step requiring time to go off task and search. Poor decision by the board! Evernote needs to become more in touch with your users.

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but I am much more comfortable with nested notebooks in a project stack.

And that is exactly what people need to overcome. Really. Let go of folders/sub-folders. It's brilliant. Tags let you do the same thing.

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I too need the functionality of sub-notebooks. As a project management consultant I work for many companies and have clients under those companies who have various projects. Evernote has become significantly less useful without this ability. While your search capabilities are fast it is an extra step requiring time to go off task and search. Poor decision by the board! Evernote needs to become more in touch with your users.

This topic has been discusssed here at length. Please use the Search function.

In EN you can create STACKS which can hold notebooks. With Stacks you can probably accomplish what you want to do. You can read about Stacks here.

Thinking for some time on HOW you are going to organize your notes (and tags) is time well spent and will also help to find them later with ease.

BTW, not sure what you mean about "poor decision by the board". This is a users board. EN decisions are made by EN owners & top tier management. Not this message board. (Pretty standard company stuff.)

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The problem is, only advanced users would know to leverage their tags for nested organization. I have used Evernote for two years, and I have never used the Tags feature. "Tags" so broadly apply to different functionality in different applications and websites, that it is not an inherent given, for new Evernote users, how they should utilize their tags to their advantage. From a UX perspective, it makes sense that a user would think Evernote would have folders. Here we have an application that allows you to collect and create lots of individual pieces of content. Yes, it could be managed with a tagging system, but I'd argue that a new user would expect "Folders" to organize their content before "Tags."

My feeling is that Evernote wants people to get to know their usability style. They've created and defined a system using Tags, and people should learn how to use Tags. But there is value from a UX perspective in providing the features that users expect, rather than teaching them how to use your software. Build software that users already know how to use.

As a use case, I searched for and found this thread because I was confused why you could drag and drop Notebooks onto Notebooks to create Stacks, but not Stacks onto Stacks to create sub-Stacks. I was so sure (and excited) that I'd be able to do this, and then was surprised when I wasn't able to.

Why not make Stacks stackable? What confusion or disadvantage would it generate? Does it encroach on the functionality of the Tags system? I'd argue that it enhances it; I can't see any downsides to enabling this functionality. Have any usability surveys shown that users don't want or expect folders?

Not only that, but it would be wonderful to be able to share sub-Stacks. I love how in Dropbox or Google Drive (also repositories of content), I can create my own hierarchy of folders, and then share sub-folders. I would love to be able to have a "Clients" Stack, and then all of my clients' Stacks inside it. And then maybe Stacks inside those Stacks, to share with different departments in the company (Accounting, Sales, Marketing, etc).

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As a feature request, this area is pretty well known to the Evernote development teams. I am sure that they know all of the pros and cons. It's been requested/debated for as long as I've been coming to these forums, and probably longer. And who knows, maybe they'll deliver this type of feature someday; they don't tend to preannounce such things, though. So for now, at least, they've chosen the stack/notebook/note/tag architecture that they have. It's definitely usable, and not that difficult conceptually, based for the most part on common physical analogs:

A note is the smallest unit of Evernote content. You can store text (possibly HTML-based), images and attachments in a note.

A notebook is a named collection of notes. Each note belongs to exactly one notebook.

A stack is a named collection of notebooks. Each notebook can belong to exactly one stack.

Tags are labels that can apply to notes. A note can have an arbitrary number of tags, and a tag can be applied to an arbitrary number of notes.

Funny how we take concepts from the commonplace physical world (Notebooks of notes? Stacks of notebooks?) and try to make them something else when they are used in the less tangible world of computers, to the point of demanding that the new meanings are actually more "intuitive" than the familiar old meanings. This fact of modern-day computing UX didn't just spring up out of the ground; people had to learn how to use arbitrarily nested structures (folders, directories, what-have-yous), as well as many other computer idioms. And people can learn the above architecture; in fact, it's not too dissimilar from the ones used in other well-known, widely-used products -- how about GMail for a start?

BTW, I am not familiar with how ""Tags" so broadly apply to different functionality in different applications and websites" -- tags are almost exactly analogous to GMail "labels", Outlook "categories", and even the old fashioned concept of "keywords". It's even not far from categorizing file types via their file extension (e.g. ".cpp", ".txt", ".mp3", etc.). Tags are great because you can categorize across any organization hierarchy, which is incredibly useful in this age of large-scale collections of disparate data. If this sort of facility isn't a part of the normal user experience, it should be.

One thing: If Evernote wanted arbitrarily-nestable notebooks, then why did they introduce a new separate concept "Stack"? Why not have Notebooks behave like computer directories? The answer is, I think, that at the time, they didn't want that behavior. But now that they have stacks and notebooks, what would be the best way forward? Can a stack contain another stack? Can a notebook contain a stack? Can a notebook contain another notebook? What's most intuitive now that you already have a more complicated conceptual vocabulary?

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I have grown to be a huge fan of Evernote over the last several months but I agree with the OP and many others that this feature is needed. I dont use tags for organizational purposes, I use them for relational purposes. I'd like to see the nesting of notbooks added so I can orgainze my notes as I see fit. I agree that using tags is a nice workaround, but it is just that, a workaround. Evernote, please add this feature, its the only thing keeping Evernote from being perfect to me.

Those of you who think tags are a better solution:

I'd ask you what hurt it would be to have the additional flexability to have nested notebooks (more than one level deep). You would presumably still be able to use tags if you prefer, so why not support this additional flexability for those of us who prefer to organize differently than you?

Thanks,

Marshall

I couldn't agree more with everything you've said here. I too LOVE Evernote. Seriously, you all are doing great work here. Everything about this software is superior to and offers more than other note-taking apps - except for it's organizational aspects.

(Speaking to the folks at Evernote now):

While tags are useful, and some may find them better than the traditional nested notebook/folder method of organization, just read this thread and you'll find that many came into Evernote wanting the ability to nest and subnest their notebooks, but were forced to learn Tags. Every other set of documents, data, etc that I deal with are organized through the nesting of folders etc, and I don't want to have to learn a whole new paradigm just to use Evernote, which would mean completely going over all my many many notes from scratch. Is it really that big of a deal to add this functionality? I'd love to hear from a support person or, even better, a lead Evernote programmer, as to why this is evidently not even being considered. Would it break other functionality of the software? Would it make Tags less useful for those that desire this method?

To me this should be a no-brainer. If you want to keep all your customers happy, give them what they want. Don't try to force us to use a method that we aren't used to using and have no interest in learning. Many of us want subnested notebooks, and I'd love it if you'd re-consider your position and just add it.

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Don't try to force us to use a method that we aren't used to using and have no interest in learning. Many of us want subnested notebooks, and I'd love it if you'd re-consider your position and just add it.

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

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Don't try to force us to use a method that we aren't used to using and have no interest in learning. Many of us want subnested notebooks, and I'd love it if you'd re-consider your position and just add it.

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

OK. Good point. Maybe my words were a bit harsh. My apologies.

My point is simply - why not include both functionalities, thereby making everyone happy with minimal effort required on their part? What's the harm in that?

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Don't try to force us to use a method that we aren't used to using and have no interest in learning. Many of us want subnested notebooks, and I'd love it if you'd re-consider your position and just add it.

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

OK. Good point. Maybe my words were a bit harsh. My apologies.

My point is simply - why not include both functionalities, thereby making everyone happy with minimal effort required on their part? What's the harm in that?

I can't speak to it but I'd guess it's a technical issue. EN lives on many platforms - that's their niche. That's what attracted many of us to EN to begin with. Personally, I've grown tired of migrating my notes from Sharp Wizard to Handspring to Palm. When I got my first iPhone is when I migrated from Palm to EN. I'm hoping I won't have to migrate from EN to anything else for a very long time, if ever. Seriously...how many apps live on all the platforms EN does? I suspect they may have restricted sub notebooks in order to make their app work well across all the platforms. This is all speculation. None of us who are only users can really say how easy a particular feature is to implement.

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It sure looks like the "experts" responding to these threads (or at least a couple of them) are refuting people posting and arguing against those posting, instead of giving info. Also, saying things like: it doesn't matter what a poster thinks??? Don't use it???

You (plural) sometimes give good info, but what's up with this?

How long ago did stacks come out? I don't think it was over a year or two ago, and It did not ship with the product originally, did it?

So, how can some people strongly state what Evernote is NOT going to do? Have a nice day!

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@ever111: did you actually read what BnF wrote? Plenty of information there,by my interpretation.

It sure looks like the "experts" responding to these threads (or at least a couple of them) are refuting people posting and arguing against those posting, instead of giving info.

Really? Provide a quote, please.

Also, saying things like: it doesn't matter what a poster thinks??? Don't use it???

Please provide a quote for that assertion.

So, how can some people strongly state what Evernote is NOT going to do? Have a nice day!

Please provide a quote for that assertion.

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jefito,

Did you not read the posts?

Did the posts show bad attitude? Just sayin. In particular, some posts in the sync thread a day or so ago, but in this thread...

There are others, but I think these three answer all of your points. Take it or leave it was also included.

I see that you were even quoted in the last sentence below. Interesting quote from a previous rebuttal, I suppose.

*The statements below are quotes from other poster(s), and not my opinion/attitude at all.*

Funny b/c it really doesn't matter what "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" think. What matters is how Evernote functions.

-------------------------------

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

-------------------------------

The way EN has functioned since it's introduction in early 2008 up to & including today is no sub/nested notebooks. It doesn't appear this will change any time soon. As for me, I find EN invaluable and prefer to spend my time using as it is (and really, I've yet to find a use care where tags don't function similarly to sub notebooks) rather than boycott/protest a feature that may or may not ever appear. If an app works for me, great. If not, I go find one that will. As Jefito says, that's why there's chocolate & vanilla.

And if you think sub notebooks are so invaluable, why would you possibly need to try to get those who are ok w/o subnotebooks to support your request?

*The statements above are quotes from other poster(s), and not my opinion/attitude at all.*

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To the original poster and others,

Please repost your request/case for nested notebooks, so others can agree with it or not. Good Luck!

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jefito,

Did you not read the posts?

Did the posts show bad attitude? Just sayin. In particular, some posts in the sync thread a day or so ago, but in this thread...

There are others, but I think these three answer all of your points. Take it or leave it was also included.

I see that you were even quoted in the last sentence below. Interesting quote from a previous rebuttal, I suppose.

*The statements below are quotes from other poster(s), and not my opinion/attitude at all.*

Funny b/c it really doesn't matter what "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" think. What matters is how Evernote functions.

-------------------------------

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

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The way EN has functioned since it's introduction in early 2008 up to & including today is no sub/nested notebooks. It doesn't appear this will change any time soon. As for me, I find EN invaluable and prefer to spend my time using as it is (and really, I've yet to find a use care where tags don't function similarly to sub notebooks) rather than boycott/protest a feature that may or may not ever appear. If an app works for me, great. If not, I go find one that will. As Jefito says, that's why there's chocolate & vanilla.

And if you think sub notebooks are so invaluable, why would you possibly need to try to get those who are ok w/o subnotebooks to support your request?

*The statements above are quotes from other poster(s), and not my opinion/attitude at all.*

First, you do a terrible job of quoting. You don't even include the links.

Second, exactly what is untrue about what I've posted?

Third, you seem to be saying I have a bad attitude. My attitude is realistic. You can yammer all day long about what you think EN should/could do. But at the end of the day, it does what it does. So yes, if it works for you, then great. If it doesn't, you would be better served to find an app that does. If I said anything else, it would be misleading.

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Thanks for posting the requested quotes. So here's what you asserted.

It sure looks like the "experts" responding to these threads (or at least a couple of them) are refuting people posting and arguing against those posting, instead of giving info.

Here's your quote:

Funny b/c it really doesn't matter what "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" think. What matters is how Evernote functions.

You should note that "those of you who think tags are a better solution" (which itself is a quote from Vlaak, the original poster) actually refers to people like BnF, not people arguing for sub-notebooks. In other words, BnF is saying "It doesn't matter what I think, it's how Evernote functions". Did you misunderstand this?

So I'm not sure how this relates; this isn't arguing again people posting at all (if by this you mean "arguing that people should post"; your sentence is a little unclear). It's really an explanation that if you want to use Evernote well, you need to deal with the reality of how Evernote works today, not how you wish it would work, which is sensible advice. But there's nothing saying that people can't make suggestions. I saw no-one at claiming that suggestions are not welcome.

Here's what you asserted.

Also, saying things like: it doesn't matter what a poster thinks??? Don't use it???

Here's your quote:

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

Again, sensible advice. If you use a tool (or any product, really), and it doesn't work the way that you want it to, then you're well-advised to use another on, or at least seek alternatives. How is that saying, at all, that it doesn't matter what a poster thinks?

Here's what you asserted.

So, how can some people strongly state what Evernote is NOT going to do? Have a nice day!

Here's your quote:

The way EN has functioned since it's introduction in early 2008 up to & including today is no sub/nested notebooks. It doesn't appear this will change any time soon. As for me, I find EN invaluable and prefer to spend my time using as it is (and really, I've yet to find a use care where tags don't function similarly to sub notebooks) rather than boycott/protest a feature that may or may not ever appear. If an app works for me, great. If not, I go find one that will. As Jefito says, that's why there's chocolate & vanilla.

I think that the relevant statement is "It doesn't appear that this will change any time soon". This sounds like an opinion to me, one that's based on over 4 years of observing Evernote's actions, and the evolution of Evernote's products. And that's really what we have to go on -- our own experiences and observations, as Evernote do not tend to release planned feature changes. BnF doesn't know whether they'll add them any time soon, of at all, I don't and neither do you.

I'm sorry, but I don't think that your quotes backed up what you claimed.

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Nested stacks would be useful also to me, indeed.

I started separating my "work" notebooks and "personal" notebooks creatindg two stacks. I like that I can see all the notes in notebooks in a stack just clicking on it, but now I need one level more of organization.

Hope to see this feature added somehow "soon".

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Is there some reason that tags do not give you that extra level of organization that you need?

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Yes. have the same request. True, many ways to live without that, but would for some people something more convenient.

About 35 Million users answers: Boring.

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The inability to have nested folders in evernote is one of the biggest limitating factors of the product. I have a seriously complex folder structure as a result which means I have to scroll through many folders to try to find the document I need.

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I think nested notebooks would be a handy feature. I have tried nested tags and I think the flexibility of tags is nice but there are those who would like nested notebooks too and I am one of them.

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I have a seriously complex folder structure as a result which means I have to scroll through many folders to try to find the document I need.

Which is *exactly* why Evernote's recommended method of using tags is much more flexible than the nested folder system. IMO/IME, having to use nested folders is more & more of a limiting factor the more files/notes you have.

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While I understand why people want nested notebooks, I can see at least 2 potential issues with them:

1. You could, very easily, reach your notebook limit (250) by simply setting up your preferred system and not really have that many actual notebooks to use.

2. This stems from the first, but if you were to create a multiple level notebook system, with 10 levels for example. You would only be able to put notes in the last level of notebooks, because that is the way that notebooks work in Evernote.

This means that only the last level of actual notebooks and the one above are actually useful, the rest is not and this is what we have now, two levels.

Could this all be changed to make it work somehow? Would it? I can't say, just my thoughts.

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Given that there have recently been major updates to the Mac and iOS clients that do not contain this functionality I think it's pretty safe to assume that it won't be included in the short to medium term.

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meanwhile, back onto the subject of nested notebooks ...

I am more of a visual thinker and visual organization works best for me. That is why nested notebooks would appeal to me. I want to be able to organize my material without using dozens of Notebooks. Tags would be the logical solution, but tags seem abstract to me. Maybe I just don't get tags, yet.

I really love the updates to Evernote: the clean UI, shortcuts, and the navigation buttons. That said: I'd be interested in any ideas on how to make Evernote more "visual" - whether with a tags-based workflow, or using stacks, or (dreaming maybe) via an API to another app that looks and works more visually (such as all those tabs in OneNote, or the cork board in Scrivener).

Thanks in advance for any suggestions from experienced Evernote users.

- Eric

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meanwhile, back onto the subject of nested notebooks ...

I'm pretty sure we are/were still on the topic of nested notebooks.

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I am more of a visual thinker and visual organization works best for me. That is why nested notebooks would appeal to me. I want to be able to organize my material without using dozens of Notebooks. Tags would be the logical solution, but tags seem abstract to me. Maybe I just don't get tags, yet.

Tags are not particularly abstract; they really are nothing more than labels that you can apply to a note: think category, or keyword, or even adjective. Tags are generally more flexible than notebooks because while a note belongs to exactly one notebook, a note may have more than one tag. So you can cross-categorize (i.e., categorize using more than one categorization scheme) notes using tags, whereas with notebooks, you are pretty much stuck with one categorization scheme.

So for example, if you were to wanted to categorize your books (one note per book), you might make be interested in categorizing by author, and by genre genre. Doing that strictly using notebooks wouldn't be all that great; do you have notebooks for each author, or for each genre, But some books have multiple authors, and some authors write in multiple genres. Instead, use tags, and you can apply author tags and genre tags as needed.

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According to the Evernote folks (Dave Engberg, I believe), stacks were added mainly for the ability to organize your notebooks in the UI. Working with a straight list of 100 (the limit then, now it's 250) wasn't that great. So in some sense, stacks are artificial (but then again, what part of Evernote isn't?? :)). At some point (can't remember exactly when), the ability to search against a stack using the stack: term was added to the search grammar. So in that sense, stacks are supported at a deeper level than the mere cosmetic.

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Thanks Jeff! That "stack:" term isn't in the search grammar docs. I implemented support for them the hard way by iterating through the Stack member notebooks in BitQwik, now I can go back and just use the "stack:" term. Much more efficient.

-- roschler

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Uh, I think he means that he can see and arrange notebooks on his computer screen, and nest them. They take up a spot in perceived and visual reality, like putting things in a file cabinet and folders, instead of just going around the office, and marking the stuff with tags, then maybe having various lists of the tags that he can look at and search. Some have great spatial memory, not for lists. He said that was how he perceives things, and he might be really good at it. He said that tags seem to be abstract to HIM. By abstract, he means that they do not have a position in space that they occupy. They are not an object that can be positioned, etc. He did say that is how HE perceives it.

Windows had folders that nest, and that is what many people are used to, surely. Maybe it was wrong. Don't know.

So, tags give a way to cross reference items in all file cabinets and folders whether related or not, but many still want their file cabinets in a building of multiple offices, in an office area with multiple rooms, in a filing room with multiple cabinets, in a file cabinet with many folders, in a folder with many notes, and some of those notes are clipped together.. Spatial. The items exist in space. They have a specific location.

(By the way, I'm thinking that the folders we see in the UI, only appear to exist, as simulated by the UI, but they do APPEAR to actually exist.)

meanwhile, back onto the subject of nested notebooks ...

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Uh, I think he means that he can see and arrange notebooks on his computer screen, and nest them. They take up a spot in perceived and visual reality, like putting things in a file cabinet and folders, instead of just going around the office, and marking the stuff with tags, then maybe having various lists of the tags that he can look at and search. Some have great spatial memory, not for lists. He said that was how he perceives things, and he might be really good at it. He said that tags seem to be abstract to HIM. By abstract, he means that they do not have a position in space that they occupy. They are not an object that can be positioned, etc. He did say that is how HE perceives it.

Hey, whoa, funny thing about that. You can actually organize tags in Evernote, yes, in a hierarchical fashion. "Gettouttahere", I can hear you say. But it's true -- it may be a little-known secret in Evernote that you can do this, why they've only been in place for two or three years. Well who knew?? But yes, you can position them, in perceived and visual space. Sort of like... um, ... those things... you know.. like.. um... oh, yes. Folders! Those totally concrete constructs, folders, why, I can reach right out and touch them. Well you can do that with tags in Evernote, too, right? Right?

And now back to what I actually meant: the reason that I wrote what I wrote is that he did say this: " tags seem abstract to me. Maybe I just don't get tags, yet." I totally got that they are abstract to him. I took it as a sincere statement. That's why I offered several analogous concepts, across several disciplines, that he might be able to better hook onto mentally: labels (used by GMail, as well as having physical analogues), categories (Outlook), keywords (science and academia), adjectives (natural language constructs that all English speakers should be familiar with). And you can organize them visually and hierarchically in Evernote, just like folders in a file system.

But here's the bonus: you can do things with tags that you simply cannot do with notebooks. And that was the point of the simple illustration I included.

Windows had folders that nest, and that is what many people are used to, surely. Maybe it was wrong. Don't know.

Please feel free to point out, via quote, where I or anyone else said that folders were wrong. I doubt very much that you'll be able to.

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Thanks Jeff! That "stack:" term isn't in the search grammar docs. I implemented support for them the hard way by iterating through the Stack member notebooks in BitQwik, now I can go back and just use the "stack:" term. Much more efficient.

I think I figured that out when I did a filter on a stack, and then saved it as a saved search. Hope it helps with BitQwik! :)

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It will Jeff. Currently I make a list of all the Notebooks that are a member of a Notebook Stack found in a query and repeat the search (submit it to Evernote via the COM API) for each Notebook in the stack. Now I just have to use the "stack:" keyword. :)

-- roschler

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Tags isn't the same as nested notebooks. Nesting allows for creation of a virtual shelf of notes for a topic, college courses, outlinging stories or research etc..

It would be a very useful feature to have. And other products offer to, requesting it in our favorite tool (Evernote) isn't that odd. I would love to have the feature too.

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Yes, but I don't like them. I am using Tags as much as possible but find them less useful than nested folders. All I am asking for is one, just one, more level of nested folders. It will make EN so much more useful. Pleeease can I have them.. Pretty please... I am begging here..

Of course my bigger gripe is the lack of image editing. I am saving huge scanned images totally unnecessarily. It eats my expensive bandwidth, consumes my EN allowance and simply means that synching takes longer. It takes a long time anyway. I really have no need for 2Mb snap shots of things filling up my account. I would have through EN would be happy to have less server space taken up with redundant data.. This has surprised me from the start.

Thomas

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Yes, I think that most of us understand all of that. And it's a valid request, but Evernote chooses not to offer this feature. Please refer to the copious amount of discussion on the topic in the forums. And in the mean time, I'd suggest giving tags another look (and yes, you can nest tags).

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Nested notebooks is a long-standing request. Evernote has chosen not to offer it as a feature (though you can put multiple notebooks into stacks). For the time being at least, it would probably be better to try to come to terms with tagging as an organization tool.

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Some of my old files are stored in a complex folder structure on my external archival drive. Earlier this week, I had a bear of a time locating one specific file due the labyrinth of folders, subfolders, and nested folders.

It is so, so much easier to find stuff in Evernote using tags and structured titles. Even though I've got 20,000+ notes, I try to keep the number of notebooks down to just 7.

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Yes, but I don't like them. I am using Tags as much as possible but find them less useful than nested folders. All I am asking for is one, just one, more level of nested folders. It will make EN so much more useful. Pleeease can I have them.. Pretty please... I am begging here..

Asked & answered many times over. Advice is...

Nested notebooks is a long-standing request. Evernote has chosen not to offer it as a feature (though you can put multiple notebooks into stacks). For the time being at least, it would probably be better to try to come to terms with tagging as an organization tool.

Of course my bigger gripe is the lack of image editing. I am saving huge scanned images totally unnecessarily. It eats my expensive bandwidth, consumes my EN allowance and simply means that synching takes longer. It takes a long time anyway. I really have no need for 2Mb snap shots of things filling up my account. I would have through EN would be happy to have less server space taken up with redundant data.. This has surprised me from the start.

Thomas

Also asked & answered many times over. There are many workarounds so your huge images don't need to chew up your upload limit. (In a nutshell - edit before uploading.) Evernote is a cloud service. They really don't care if you add five copies of a huge photo of your dog. (It's not their job to care what you upload.) Their job is to store all five copies, if that's what you elect to do.

Nothing new to see here.

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... it would probably be better to try to come to terms with tagging as an organization tool.

We all have developed our workarounds but we should never stop asking for sub notebooks here in the forum. EN may have decided "for now" not to have this feature but if enough customers keep asking someday they may see the light.

Hughjc

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Using Evernote as it is, or finding another piece of software is needlessly restrictive list of the choices available.

Lobbying Evernote to support a feature you want is a perfectly legitimate choice. Nested Notebooks is an example of just such a feature, and lobbying for it's inclusion is perfectly reasonable.

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Lobbying Evernote to support a feature you want is a perfectly legitimate choice. Nested Notebooks is an example of just such a feature, and lobbying for it's inclusion is perfectly reasonable.

Nobody said that it isn't a legitimate action. However, you need to be prepared for it to take some time before they deliver such a feature (and they may never do so), and put up with a product that doesn't do what you want in the meantime. So in the here and now, you pretty much have only two practical choices.

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Then we disagree that option (3) lobbying for the inclusion of a feature and / or asking for support for a feature from other people isn't a "practical" choice.

As a new reader of the forums this thread certainly comes across as a strong defence of tags, to the extent that lobbying for a more traditional method of classification is being discouraged. You won't find the word "discouraged" or "wrong" or any explicit synonyms, but it's a matter of tone.

For the record, I am a long time advocate of tagging in other systems (GMail, RTM, various MP3 organisers, various CMS etc,) and carry that across to EN - and thanks for your pointer on nested tags. But the traditional nested folder abstraction has it's place, even if it's just a method to allow cautious users to gently transition into something more flexible.

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Then we disagree that option (3) lobbying for the inclusion of a feature and / or asking for support for a feature from other people isn't a "practical" choice.

Perhaps we disagree, perhaps I wasn't clear, but I don't think that we need to argue the point. It's certainly a valid choice; your opinions (including lobbying for nested folders) are welcome here, full stop.

As a new reader of the forums this thread certainly comes across as a strong defence of tags, to the extent that lobbying for a more traditional method of classification is being discouraged. You won't find the word "discouraged" or "wrong" or any explicit synonyms, but it's a matter of tone.

It's all a practical matter to me. You don't have arbitrarily nesting of notebooks in Evernote, but you do have tags. That's a fact.

And Evernote does understand that there are a number of people who want arbitrarily nested notebooks. They can't have missed the issue; there's plenty of forum discussion relating to the idea. But they have chosen not to deliver it to date. That's also a fact.

So in dealing with folks who lobby for nested notebooks (some of whom do not understand the expressive power of tags, some of who clearly do), I feel compelled to let them know that tags are what are available in Evernote, and they are really very useful. If they weren't, I wouldn't be using Evernote. As far as I am concerned, tags are how you do organization in Evernote, if you're doing explicit organization. If that's a defense (or 'defence'; vive la difference! :)), then so be it. Ultimately, I'd rather focus on how to use the tools that we have in hand today.

For the record, I am a long time advocate of tagging in other systems (GMail, RTM, various MP3 organisers, various CMS etc,) and carry that across to EN - and thanks for your pointer on nested tags. But the traditional nested folder abstraction has it's place, even if it's just a method to allow cautious users to gently transition into something more flexible.

Let's face it, if Evernote were to offer nested notebooks, how many of those 'cautious users' would actually make the transition? Not many, I'd guess; they'd just continue to use their familiar folders. GMail doesn't cater to that audience either, for that matter. And it's not just a matter of simply adding nested folders; there's a whole raft of underpinnings that would need to be changed across the entire Evernote architecture, plus a lot of UI changes that would need to be made across the range of clients. I don't see it happening any time soon, though obviously that's not my choice.

My guess is that Evernote, as a company (but who knows about renegade Evernote employees? :)), doesn't believe that it needs to offer nested notebooks to be useful.

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Hi Jeff,

To amplify your point, I have mentioned this before:

When selling expensive software, my customers would often ask for specific features and I explained that this was not a problem, But the price would go from £25K to about £250K minimum to get that feature!

The important issue is to look at software and adapt the way you work for that software. It will be 90% or hopefully more of what you want, but by adapting you can then increase that figure to as near 100% as possible.

Nothing of course wrong with asking for features to be added. Indeed we kept a list of what customers wanted and once a month had a meeting to discuss the merits of such changes which may or not have made it into the final production model.

Best regards

Chris

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@jefito @C6REW

I can't imagine any Damascene conversions to tags from folders on day 1, but you do need to experience EN's positives to trust it enough to abandon a comfortable idea. Getting a critical volume of existing data in there must be a significant factor.

I have a similar attitude to tools - nothing is ever perfect and if I wait for it to become perfect, I'll end up standing still. WRT your 90% remark, I am more often trying to persuade a customer not to part with their money on small impact / large effort features on the basis that [a] I selfishly won't find then interesting to work on, even if they are profitable and if they have money to spare for that, how about spending it on X instead, where X will have a large impact.

Which I suppose brings me to whether or not, given the depth of change you speculate is required, nested notebooks would give you anything that a bit of familiarity with tagging wouldn't? I think probably so.

If you can nest notebooks, you then have a more flexible and discrete method of offline notebook access / notebook sharing.

If EN allowed you to offline / share on the basis of a tag, that advantage would evaporate I suppose.

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I'd like to add my voice in support of a "nested" stacks feature. That would definitely move EN up greatly in usefulness.

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The only stack I have is one for all notebooks shared with me.

Heh -- can't do that anymore, if you also include Business notebooks. Gotta keep those notebooks in their own corral.

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Our small business has been evaluating EN for Business as an alternative to Dropbox. EN has the advantage of handling more file types more easily, better searching, tags, etc., but Dropbox, which we use now, has the clear advantage when it comes to organization. We need to be able to organize our information at least one more level than EN seems to allow. As an example, our company develops formulations, each of which has many associated files and documents. Within EN we'd love to be able to create a folder called "Formulations" and then within this folder create a notebook for each formulation. Each formulation notebook could then contain all the associated documents for the formulation. As it stands now, each formulation is a notebook, all of which appear at the same level as every other notebook within the "Business Library" view. With hundreds of these, it gets cluttered.

Stacks are close, but they can't be shared. Stacks I create on my Mac don't appear in the Business notebook and vice versa.

I'm also concerned about the limitation of the number of notebooks, 250 I think, which is far too small for our use.

It would be great if EN had the ability to create some kind of organizational hierarchy beyond the klutzy and limited stack concept. Why not replace stacks with "Folders" or that could be shared and capable of handling thousands of notebooks each? Something like:

Business Library

- Formulation Folder

- Formulation notebook 1

- Formulation notebook 2

- Formulation notebook ...

- Client Folder

- Client notebook 1

- Client notebook 2

- Client notebook ...

- Presentation Folder ...

I understand that much of this can be accomplished with tags, but that's a hit or miss workaround when groups of people are expected to maintain a tagging system.

Thanks.

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