Jump to content
  • 383
cswsteve

Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

Idea

Recommended Posts

  • 0

For once, there was no pun intended. And there's plenty of people with nice figures who ain't famous, I reckon.

I've advocated -- in my way -- for smart tagging since, well, basically since not long after I started on the forums... :)

Oh, I know that. Look at my figure, and I am still not famous! I was just trying to help explain Kim. Actually, I think she has a colorful history, connections, marketing acumen, and lots of other attributes as well. Who knows what the formula for success is, though? Heck, in this day and age cute animals outperform political and business leaders in terms of popularity. It seems a little easier to wrap my head around tags and notebooks than the mysteries of fame and notoriety.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
In fact, hierarchical system is necessary. Just look at your computer's file structure.

A hierarchical foundation is not necessary to present a file system to the user. There's no theoretical or mathematical reason why hierarchies are the sole best organizing scheme for content, or that their use is required. That being said, hierarchy is a useful tool in the organizing toolbox, and it's all the more important because it's familiar (then again, Kim Kardashian seems to be famous because she's famous -- go figure). Bottom line for me is that tags theoretically have the power to express hierarchies, but not the converse. It's one of the reasons that I prefer tagged organization. The flip side in this instance is that Evernote has not really provided support for more fully realizing tag expressiveness, so we can't quite do all of the hierarchical operations as we might like -- for example, the ability to organize tags hierarchically is useful, but the inability of search to understand that hierarchy is an impediment.

Suck to live in an imperfect world, right? :)

And unfortunately, structured tags are not available on iOS yet.

I certainly accept that this is unfortunate. I think it will be remedied, sooner rather than later, or at least should be.

Well, I was trained to think with a hierarchical system. So maybe it's my blind spot. But I still think hierarchical system is the most efficient way to process massive data. Essays, books, libraries, computer files, and hard drive clusters all uses hierarchical system. It's not easy to make people like me to arrange their thoughts in another way. Without a proper structure, things look like a mess to me.

Before EN's note linking feature was out, I had a very hard time to arrange all my notes. I wanted to make all my notes be my Wikipedia, but it turned out to be my Google. It could help me find things but I couldn't see the whole picture of them. Maybe hierarchical system is cubersome for some people. But it's not cumbersome for all people.

By the way, Kim Kardashian was hot. But in my hometown, 8 (maybe 9) out of 10 persons don't know who she is. You are lucky that I heard of her. (grin)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
In fact, hierarchical system is necessary. Just look at your computer's file structure.

A hierarchical foundation is not necessary to present a file system to the user. There's no theoretical or mathematical reason why hierarchies are the sole best organizing scheme for content, or that their use is required. That being said, hierarchy is a useful tool in the organizing toolbox, and it's all the more important because it's familiar (then again, Kim Kardashian seems to be famous because she's famous -- go figure). Bottom line for me is that tags theoretically have the power to express hierarchies, but not the converse. It's one of the reasons that I prefer tagged organization. The flip side in this instance is that Evernote has not really provided support for more fully realizing tag expressiveness, so we can't quite do all of the hierarchical operations as we might like -- for example, the ability to organize tags hierarchically is useful, but the inability of search to understand that hierarchy is an impediment.

Suck to live in an imperfect world, right? :)

And unfortunately, structured tags are not available on iOS yet.

I certainly accept that this is unfortunate. I think it will be remedied, sooner rather than later, or at least should be.

Before EN's note linking feature was out, I had a very hard time to arrange all my notes. I wanted to make all my notes be my Wikipedia, but it turned out to be my Google. I could help me find things but I couldn't see the whole picture of them. Maybe hierarchical system is cubersome for some people. But it's not cumbersome for all people.

This is a great analogy, and I have to agree that the note link feature has been crucial for me as well. It has its issues and limitations, most notably the feature missing from mobile devices, but it is an improvement.

By the way, Kim Kardashian was hot. But in my hometown, 8 (maybe 9) out of 10 persons don't know who she is. You are lucky that I heard of her.

Surely, she is a household word!

Just kidding, after cutting the cord a few years ago (no more cable tv) it seems that my time on this earth has included a lot less inane blather, though I am surely suffering in some way without being jacked into the Jersey Shore. I only really know about her through word of mouth, clicking on articles I come across in Google News, and my general interest in the phenomenon of monetizing your public persona.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Well, I was trained to think with a hierarchical system. So maybe it's my blind spot. But I still think hierarchical system is the most efficient way to process massive data. Essays, books, libraries, computer files, and hard drive clusters all uses hierarchical system. It's not easy to make people like me to arrange their thoughts in another way. Without a proper structure, things look like a mess to me.

The reality is that the more data you have, the less efficient a strict hierarchical system becomes. I learned this before even using Evernote b/c I have so much data spread across so many hard drives. I was often having to look through a few Windows folders in order to find a file. I finally started using Locate32 which allows me to quickly find a file, regardless which drive & folder it's in.

A simple example is images/photos. If I'm looking for a photo of Uncle Joe in San Diego, is it in the "family" folder? Or the "San Diego vacation 1999" folder? Or the "San Diego vacation 1997" folder? Or the "San Diego marathon" folder?

What a pain it would be to locate an ebook if it was only in one category? Is it filed under "fiction"? "Best sellers?" By title? By author?

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I've been a big outliner forever...and still have trouble thinking outside of that organizational box.

Now I know its been discussed extensively here and the case for non hierarchic/tag centric based organization has been put well...intriguingly well. But I wonder if someone passionate about it could write up a definitive description/case for that model..from an Evernote standpoint of course....one that has the best chance of changing the hard driven hierarchic paradigm...contrasting the two.

Using visuals...graphics..mindmaps etc...are always helpful when changing ways of looking at things.

I'm sure there's plenty out there on this but from an Evernote context I'd love to see some of the eloquent posts here fleshed out a bit into what might be the definitive Evernote model..maybe comprising a sticky for a while.

Cheers

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Well, I was trained to think with a hierarchical system. So maybe it's my blind spot. But I still think hierarchical system is the most efficient way to process massive data. Essays, books, libraries, computer files, and hard drive clusters all uses hierarchical system. It's not easy to make people like me to arrange their thoughts in another way. Without a proper structure, things look like a mess to me.

The reality is that the more data you have, the less efficient a strict hierarchical system becomes. I learned this before even using Evernote b/c I have so much data spread across so many hard drives. I was often having to look through a few Windows folders in order to find a file. I finally started using Locate32 which allows me to quickly find a file, regardless which drive & folder it's in.

A simple example is images/photos. If I'm looking for a photo of Uncle Joe in San Diego, is it in the "family" folder? Or the "San Diego vacation 1999" folder? Or the "San Diego vacation 1997" folder? Or the "San Diego marathon" folder?

What a pain it would be to locate an ebook if it was only in one category? Is it filed under "fiction"? "Best sellers?" By title? By author?

You mixed several hierarchical system. In fact, you can find them if you put them right there.

Your problem is on classification, not on the system.

Besides, I use hierarchical system but I don't use it alone.

I use search box to find what I need, then I use hierarchical system to see what's relative.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

You mixed several hierarchical system. In fact, you can find them if you put them right there.

Your problem is on classification, not on the system.

Besides, I use hierarchical system but I don't use it alone.

I use search box to find what I need, then I use hierarchical system to see what's relative.

I gave different examples. I don't understand your concept of "mixing several hierarchical systems". Nor do I understand your statement "then I use hierarchical system to see what's relative". The more data you have, the more places you have to dig around to find the data. And you've pretty much agreed with that when you say you use a search box to find what you need. Unless you dump them into one big folder/notebook & use tags to find the data. Oh wait, that's what Evernote's all about!

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Well, I was trained to think with a hierarchical system. So maybe it's my blind spot. But I still think hierarchical system is the most efficient way to process massive data. Essays, books, libraries, computer files, and hard drive clusters all uses hierarchical system. It's not easy to make people like me to arrange their thoughts in another way. Without a proper structure, things look like a mess to me.

The reality is that the more data you have, the less efficient a strict hierarchical system becomes. I learned this before even using Evernote b/c I have so much data spread across so many hard drives. I was often having to look through a few Windows folders in order to find a file. I finally started using Locate32 which allows me to quickly find a file, regardless which drive & folder it's in.

A simple example is images/photos. If I'm looking for a photo of Uncle Joe in San Diego, is it in the "family" folder? Or the "San Diego vacation 1999" folder? Or the "San Diego vacation 1997" folder? Or the "San Diego marathon" folder?

What a pain it would be to locate an ebook if it was only in one category? Is it filed under "fiction"? "Best sellers?" By title? By author?

You mixed several hierarchical system. In fact, you can find them if you put them right there.

Your problem is on classification, not on the system.

Besides, I use hierarchical system but I don't use it alone.

I use search box to find what I need, then I use hierarchical system to see what's relative.

I'm not terribly invested in this argument, and even though I left the "Yahoo! Portal" (hierarchical / categorized model of information management) for the "Google Search" (flat model of information management) camp a long time ago, I do recognize the value of having multiple ways to structure data. Evernote (in my opinion) works better for the Google one. Personally, I'd like to see both made stronger in order to pull in more users, but there may be design decisions involved behind the scenes.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

You mixed several hierarchical system. In fact, you can find them if you put them right there.

Your problem is on classification, not on the system.

Besides, I use hierarchical system but I don't use it alone.

I use search box to find what I need, then I use hierarchical system to see what's relative.

I gave different examples. I don't understand your concept of "mixing several hierarchical systems". Nor do I understand your statement "then I use hierarchical system to see what's relative". The more data you have, the more places you have to dig around to find the data. And you've pretty much agreed with that when you say you use a search box to find what you need. Unless you dump them into one big folder/notebook & use tags to find the data. Oh wait, that's what Evernote's all about!

Sorry, English is not my first language, so I couldn't express my thoughts very well. But I'll try.

The first thing to build an hierachical system, is to unify the classification method.

For example, I want to find John Irving's Life according to Garp in a library. I have several ways to find it. I can find it by author, by title, by category.

And every way I can use it fo find the book is a single hierarchical system.

I can find it by author, first letter of surname "I", second letter "R", and so on. This is an hierarchical system.

I can find it by title, first letter "L", second letter "I", and so on. This is another hierarchical system.

So if the classification has no problem, and the library put it in the right place, I can find the book.

Take your example, you want to find photo of Uncle Joe in San Diego.

You can find it in "family" folder if you did build a hierarchical system classified with "family and relatives"

Or in the "San Diego" if you did build a system classified with "locations".

So I said the problem is not on the hierarchical system but on your classfication.

And if you put the photo in the right place of every hierachical systems, you can find it in "family" folder, the "San Diego vacation 1999" folder, and the "San Diego vacation 1997", even the "San Diego marathon".

I used several heirachical systems with my notes, I use stacks to build one, structured tags for another, and index notes with note link for the others.

So I can easily found out the relations of my notes.

It's hard to see the relations of notes with unstructured tags and search box, isn't it?

And there's another good example of how the hierachical system works-you can draw a mindmap.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

@yikeouch and @rekko - keep expressing your viewpoints - your doing a great job. There seem to be loud voices who drown everyone else out with statements like "if you don't like tags find another product ... " or "Evernote will never change that ...". These people really have no idea - they are users, just like you. The product team (if indeed they are listening) should be smart and creative enough to glean from your feedback a solution to accommodate your need. Many of us are wired to write outlines in a heiarchy and I'm sure if Evernote feels this is important they can figure out a way to allow the current users to do what they are doing and new users can be accommodated. Unfortunately, there are very narrow thinkers here who are not able to abstract your challenges. Many users have presented awkward workarounds - naming conventions, links, etc, but those are not the way the workflow is optimized, so it may be a fix, but not a solution. Keep expressing your selves and kudos to @grumpymonkey who may not agree that it suits him, but there are others who think differently.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

@yikeouch and @rekko - keep expressing your viewpoints - your doing a great job. There seem to be loud voices who drown everyone else out with statements like "if you don't like tags find another product ... " or "Evernote will never change that ...". These people really have no idea - they are users, just like you. The product team (if indeed they are listening) should be smart and creative enough to glean from your feedback a solution to accommodate your need. Many of us are wired to write outlines in a heiarchy and I'm sure if Evernote feels this is important they can figure out a way to allow the current users to do what they are doing and new users can be accommodated. Unfortunately, there are very narrow thinkers here who are not able to abstract your challenges. Many users have presented awkward workarounds - naming conventions, links, etc, but those are not the way the workflow is optimized, so it may be a fix, but not a solution. Keep expressing your selves and kudos to @grumpymonkey who may not agree that it suits him, but there are others who think differently.

It's always cool when users chime in to support one another's viewpoints. I don't think other users are drowning anyone out, but there are people with strong opinions on this issue, and they tend to post frequently, because they are passionate about the product. A genuine difference of opinion seems healthy to me, so I hope that people will continue to argue for their positions on both sides. In the end, we don't get to make policy, but the developers are reading these posts, so you might be able to influence them. I believe care packages might help your case as well :)

Thanks for the kind words. I guess that in this case I get off easy, because I lack passion for the issue. I win either way! I am also the least helpful, because I won't be able to argue forcefully for either side. Strong opinions are good, because they draw out the issues for discussion.

For this one, I am mainly concerned about attracting and keeping new users, and I do worry that a lack of notebooks / hierarchical organization discourages people. There are workarounds, of course, but any workaround requires adapting yourself to an app and a fair bit of patience. If I knew the reason for a lack of notebook levels, it might seem more justified, but I'd just as soon see Evernote remove this as a potential obstacle -- assuming, of course, that design challenges are not too significant.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Thanks, @shawnholt.

In fact, although I prefer hierarchical system, I'm quite adapted with current EN with my workaround.

I think a little enhancement of EN will solve most of problems out. I'm fond of @JMichael's idea:

1. Combination of hierarchical organization and cross-cutting tags. ( I'm using index notes with note links as the hierarchical organization tool to do so.)

2. To make search engine to include child tags. ( or auto-tag with "mother tags" when move a tag to be a child tag).

@jbenson2's workaround isn't very useful. Because it's hard to remember the whole hierarchical system when the system has several stratification. For example, if I have to tag München, I have to tag "Europe-Germany-Bayern-München". I will be really annoyed by tags while tagging if I adapt jbenson2's workaround. His workaround is nice when you finish all the tagging and have to arrange the tags, but is not nice when tagging.

My current workarond is:

Use index notes with note link, and put all the index note in a stack to organize a hierarchical system.

And build organized tag systems for cross-cutting. This works very well for me.

So, if EN add note link feature to all the platform and optimize the tag system, I will be a satisfied customer.

Of course, if the team make hierarchical system available, I'll be more satisfied.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
There seem to be loud voices who drown everyone else out with statements like "if you don't like tags find another product ... " or "Evernote will never change that ...". These people really have no idea - they are users, just like you.

If you're referring to specific people, please quote them directly, rather than paraphrasing them anonymously, and incorrectly.

The plain and simple truth of it is that the for some of of use who have been participating in the discussion, the stance is this:

1) Suggestions are welcome, however...

2) ...while Evernote may change in the future, right now all we have is the Evernote that exists, not the Evernote of your dreams, so therefore...

3) ,,,advice is usually given for solving problems based on Evernote's current capabilities, but...

4) ...if all workarounds suggested are not sufficient, then advice to seek out another product is reasonable.

Note: everyone's voice is as loud as any others here.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I think where the issue of hierarchical notebooks vs tags will come back to bite Evernote is as they introduce Evernote Business. Because I think EN Business is a great idea I have been trying to introduce EN to others in our architectural firm. I run into two problems. First is demonstrating EN on an ipad is not good if, like me, you have lots of notebooks organized with a custom naming work around. The ipad is practically unusable with a notebook based system. The iphone version is workable but the screen is too small. I find many people walk away unimpressed. This is so frustrating since I have been an EN user and fanboy for years.

I think most of the people commenting on this forum are fairly sophisticated EN users who are willing to spend some time organizing their EN workflow. The next level of users that EN needs to attract are not going to spend a lot of time understanding EN. I would argue that EVERY ONE understands hierarchichal systems (folders or notebooks) and can pick up a system like that and go. I think the competition for EN Business is going to come from cloud systems like DropBox (who are introducing their own "business" version). I know this topic will continue. I have been one of the voices pleading for multiple notebook levels since EN was introduced and I will continue to plead. I think that as EN tries to move further into corporate markets they should consider this question again. Regardless of what they do they have to fix the ipad version first.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

The next level of users that EN needs to attract are not going to spend a lot of time understanding EN. I would argue that EVERY ONE understands hierarchichal systems (folders or notebooks) and can pick up a system like that and go. I think the competition for EN Business is going to come from cloud systems like DropBox (who are introducing their own "business" version). I know this topic will continue. I have been one of the voices pleading for multiple notebook levels since EN was introduced and I will continue to plead. I think that as EN tries to move further into corporate markets they should consider this question again. Regardless of what they do they have to fix the ipad version first.

"If you build it, he will come"

Field of Dreams, 1989

:lol:

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Once again, Dropbox and Evernote solve different problems. I use them both, every day.

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I think what needs to be understood is that Evernote is still a growing and expanding product and solution. I know for a fact that the folks at Evernote work hard to adapt to the growing needs and organization models their customers seek to implement. While informational science is no new subject, I think it is safe to assume that Evernote, along with the rest of the Internet are still seeking to find new ways to both preserve and retrieve data.

I don't see a solution coming overnight, and much less a universal one--and that's even on the front-end of things. I think it's a little unfair to say Evernote is acting arrogant, when they have and are pioneering an innovative model. I mean prior to Evernote, I had only heard of companies "renting" data storage. That said, I think you are correct in believing that new ways need to be analyzed, so that Evernote is able to organize and retrieve your growing amounts of data in a useful way.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

"If you build it, he will come"

Field of Dreams, 1989

:lol:

"I had the same dream last night!"

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Once again, Dropbox and Evernote solve different problems. I use them both, every day.

Read my comments a little more carefully. I am looking beyond Evernote to Evernote Business. You seem to think that the way YOU use Evernote is the way evernote is supposed to work. The real power of evernote is that there are LOTS of ways to use it. I am commenting on the way I use it and the way I hope to continue using it into the future.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

i'd bet 3 of my favourite notes that multiple notebook levels are not implemented in the next 2 years if ever. No inside information, but it's clearly not the way that the app is architected and the cost of changing that architecture and implementing across all the clients would be very very high. The existing model is proving phenomenally successful, in their shoes I wouldn't change it either.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

i'd bet 3 of my favourite notes that multiple notebook levels are not implemented in the next 2 years if ever. No inside information, but it's clearly not the way that the app is architected and the cost of changing that architecture and implementing across all the clients would be very very high. The existing model is proving phenomenally successful, in their shoes I wouldn't change it either.

I agree. IMO, stacks were the answer to sub-notebooks. I'd guess most coders who've been coding for very many years have been in a situation where Bossman says "can you do X?" and they say, "not without a new team and a year or two of restructuring". So Bossman says "give me a Plan B". IMO, stacks were Plan B. And if sub-stacks or sub-notebooks were easy/fairly easy/somewhat easy to implement across all the platforms, with all the clamoring, I think they would have been implemented by now. Case in point...the infamous & elusive "due date". That's surely got to be easier to implement across all platforms than sub/nested stacks/notebooks...??? And yet... Personally, I think someone at EN anticipated problems with nested/sub notebooks from the get go when they were migrating from EN the Windows payware to EN the cloud service that will live on many OSs & that's why they focused on tags. (Very forward thinking for that time, too, when pretty much anytime you moved to a new device, you had to get new apps & export/import existing notes/data/contacts, unless you stuck with say, Palm..) IME tags definitely serve the purpose. People are just reluctant to change. (Just like my mom never adapted to cooking fresh green beans in a microwave & continued to cook them to death on the stove.)

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Now I am dying to know what Metrodon's three favorite notes really are... is one of them the one with the encrypted Swiss bank account code? The secret formula for Coca-Cola? Aimee Mann's phone number? The location of the last city of Atlantis? The secret of the Thirty-Nine Steps?

Evernote, give over. The world is dying to know.... what's in Metrodon's Evernote???

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Read my comments a little more carefully. I am looking beyond Evernote to Evernote Business.

I didn't notice that you added any details about why you think that DropBox's business solution would make it into a big competitor to Evernote For Business. Is it solely because they have a hierarchical storage system, and Evernote has a very shallow one?

You seem to think that the way YOU use Evernote is the way evernote is supposed to work.

Kindly read *my* comments a little more carefully. I think no such thing, though you're welcome to go ahead and point out where I say anything like it. My baseline opinion has been and continues to be that Evernote is the entity that determines how Evernote should work, not me (and that doesn't mean that they shouldn't take suggestions, they should and do; the trouble is that there are a lot of suggestions, and finite development resources). As it happens, it works pretty well for my usage, and although I can think of several features that I think would make it better for me, and have written about them in the forums, I maintain no expectations that Evernote will ever fulfill them. To wit:

The plain and simple truth of it is that the for some of of use who have been participating in the discussion, the stance is this:

1) Suggestions are welcome, however...

2) ...while Evernote may change in the future, right now all we have is the Evernote that exists, not the Evernote of your dreams, so therefore...

3) ,,,advice is usually given for solving problems based on Evernote's current capabilities, but...

4) ...if all workarounds suggested are not sufficient, then advice to seek out another product is reasonable.

So, yes, dream on (and I'm not being flippant about that). Keep advocating for hierarchical notebooks, you're not alone, and I do not, nor have I ever actually said that they'd be a bad thing. But I find it hard to believe that people are not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags as organizational tools. Most people I know can already use multiple adjectives to describe an object, and that's really not too far from what tags are. Hey, in the battle of organizing the Internet, Yahoo (hierarchical search) lost, and Google won (associative search). Something to think about.

The real power of evernote is that there are LOTS of ways to use it.

Never disagreed with that. But you can't use it as if it has arbitrarily nested notebooks, because it just doesn't. At least at this time...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

i'd bet 3 of my favourite notes that multiple notebook levels are not implemented in the next 2 years if ever. No inside information, but it's clearly not the way that the app is architected and the cost of changing that architecture and implementing across all the clients would be very very high. The existing model is proving phenomenally successful, in their shoes I wouldn't change it either.

I agree. IMO, stacks were the answer to sub-notebooks. ...

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

I'm going to continue asking for hierarchical folders just the same. IME tags don't work for me. I don't fear change and I'm smart enough to understand tags. They just don't work for what I do. I also think if EN thinks the way you suggest they never should have introduced stacks (or even multiple notebooks for that matter). I think the web clipper feature of guessing what notebook you want to put an article into (not which tag) also is a tease to us multiple notebook users.

I hope EN eventually moves to add the functions that people keep asking for. I know its hard and I know it won't happen overnight but I think we should keep asking if we think it will make EN better. Once again, I hope if EN does add sub notebooks they are not mandatory and the tag users can continue unhindered. I do not criticize EN over this but I will not stop asking for it. I will also not stop using EN and find another app...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

i'd bet 3 of my favourite notes that multiple notebook levels are not implemented in the next 2 years if ever. No inside information, but it's clearly not the way that the app is architected and the cost of changing that architecture and implementing across all the clients would be very very high. The existing model is proving phenomenally successful, in their shoes I wouldn't change it either.

I agree. IMO, stacks were the answer to sub-notebooks. ...

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

I'm going to continue asking for hierarchical folders just the same. IME tags don't work for me. I don't fear change and I'm smart enough to understand tags. They just don't work for what I do. I also think if EN thinks the way you suggest they never should have introduced stacks (or even multiple notebooks for that matter). I think the web clipper feature of guessing what notebook you want to put an article into (not which tag) also is a tease to us multiple notebook users.

I hope EN eventually moves to add the functions that people keep asking for. I know its hard and I know it won't happen overnight but I think we should keep asking if we think it will make EN better. Once again, I hope if EN does add sub notebooks they are not mandatory and the tag users can continue unhindered. I do not criticize EN over this but I will not stop asking for it. I will also not stop using EN and find another app...

Good on you. I think voicing your opinions is the way to go, because developers are reading this, and they pay attention.

With the exception of the Windows client, where my only complaint at the moment is the inability to search the database from outside the app, I feel like every platform is missing some feature I'd really like to see, so I have plenty of posts all over the forums asking for this or that. Sometimes I get it. Sometimes I don't. But, it doesn't hurt to ask.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

i'd bet 3 of my favourite notes that multiple notebook levels are not implemented in the next 2 years if ever. No inside information, but it's clearly not the way that the app is architected and the cost of changing that architecture and implementing across all the clients would be very very high. The existing model is proving phenomenally successful, in their shoes I wouldn't change it either.

IME tags definitely serve the purpose. People are just reluctant to change. (Just like my mom never adapted to cooking fresh green beans in a microwave & continued to cook them to death on the stove.)

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

I don't know if you guys have cognitive dissonance or not.

We tried to make it very clear:

We ( who use hierarchical system ) are aware that multiple notebook levels are not implemented in near future.

We are just expressing our need.

The current system just does not meet our needs. I made my points in last few replies.

I'm not very in need of multiple notebook levels because I have some workarounds. But the system can't suit all my need now.

So I hope EN will add some features afterward.

And none of you propose a better solution and you call tag system "serve the purpose"? Well, it's serving your purpose not ours.

And you were saying that we are reluctant and not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags as organizational tools.

By what eye did you see that? Remember one thing, people have different need.

We are not saying tags are bad, it just don't serve our purpose.

@jefito

Yes, Evernote is the entity that determines how Evernote should work. But if evernote doesn't meet my need, I'll change to another.

I was using Onenote and jumped to Evernote years ago because Onenote doesn't do well on multi-platform.

But I'm not saying Onenote are bad, it does better than Evernote in some way. It just don't meet my need.

EN does very well for now, but if there's other note-taking app works better than Evernote. I might switch there.

And about Dropbox, I think its business solution have a potential to make it into a big competitor to Evernote.

Also, EN is a potential competitor to Dropbox on file-storage too.

Try a software named Epistle on Android. It has a very interesting concept in using Dropbox as a note-strorage.

I'm an almost satisfied customer of Evernote, but I'm still finding others to replace Evernote.

About "On the battle of organizing the Internet, Yahoo (hierarchical search) lost, and Google won (associative search). Something to think about."

Well, you can not compare an apple with an orange. Did you learn your lessons all by associative links in school? No, I think there must be hierarchical system participate in. A single tree does not make a forest. Hierarchical system is still useful in some way and it can not be abandoned.

Although you denied the accusation of "seems to think that the way YOU use Evernote is the way evernote is supposed to work." But what you said like "I find it hard to believe that people are not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags as organizational tools", gave us a feeling that you do think so.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

i'd bet 3 of my favourite notes that multiple notebook levels are not implemented in the next 2 years if ever. No inside information, but it's clearly not the way that the app is architected and the cost of changing that architecture and implementing across all the clients would be very very high. The existing model is proving phenomenally successful, in their shoes I wouldn't change it either.

I agree. IMO, stacks were the answer to sub-notebooks. ...

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

I'm going to continue asking for hierarchical folders just the same. IME tags don't work for me. I don't fear change and I'm smart enough to understand tags. They just don't work for what I do. I also think if EN thinks the way you suggest they never should have introduced stacks (or even multiple notebooks for that matter). I think the web clipper feature of guessing what notebook you want to put an article into (not which tag) also is a tease to us multiple notebook users.

I hope EN eventually moves to add the functions that people keep asking for. I know its hard and I know it won't happen overnight but I think we should keep asking if we think it will make EN better. Once again, I hope if EN does add sub notebooks they are not mandatory and the tag users can continue unhindered. I do not criticize EN over this but I will not stop asking for it. I will also not stop using EN and find another app...

Good on you. I think voicing your opinions is the way to go, because developers are reading this, and they pay attention.

With the exception of the Windows client, where my only complaint at the moment is the inability to search the database from outside the app, I feel like every platform is missing some feature I'd really like to see, so I have plenty of posts all over the forums asking for this or that. Sometimes I get it. Sometimes I don't. But, it doesn't hurt to ask.

I hope others' replies are like yours.Their "you should do it this way" really make me upset sometimes.

I'm not a person who don't accept advises. I appreciate people like @jbenson2 and @JMichael who try to gave us a workaround.

Although their workarounds sometimes does not meet my need, I still thank them.

I already changed my way of arranging notes a lot and I spent hours on it.

Sometimes it's really a pain to make my notes suit for my workflow.

And lack of feature on some platform made it worse.

I just come to asking for what I need and keep seeing people says " You are wrong, you are reluctant to change, you are not not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags". It's like pouring oil on the flame.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Now I am dying to know what Metrodon's three favorite notes really are... is one of them the one with the encrypted Swiss bank account code? The secret formula for Coca-Cola? Aimee Mann's phone number? The location of the last city of Atlantis? The secret of the Thirty-Nine Steps?

Evernote, give over. The world is dying to know.... what's in Metrodon's Evernote???

I don't think I'm giving too much away if I tell you that at least one is marmite based.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Try a software named Epistle on Android. It has a very interesting concept in using Dropbox as a note-strorage.

Epistle...? Well, that brings up some interesting points worth thinking about when choosing a notetaking app.

(1) How do you feel about giving Matteo (the developer) your Dropbox username and password?

(2) How do you feel about having no control over the sync folder, and no subfolders?

(3) How do you feel about a simple search (compared to Evernote's advanced search)?

(4) How do you feel about having no tags (as far as I know)?

(5) How do you feel about no search within notes (as far as I know)?

(6) How do you feel about losing data? You have to be very careful with the syncing, and you don't have much control over it...

On iOS, notetaking programs that sync with Dropbox are legion. I think a few like notesy stand out from the rest, but this concept is nothing new. For some reason, though, the Android marketplace is a barren wasteland, and there are very few good text editors. It is quite sad. There is a lot of potential with the model, but potential is not terribly practical.

Evernote isn't perfect, and I certainly think there is more room for improvement, but it really is doing something unique, especially if you are concerned about data security / integrity / stability.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Epistle...? Well, that brings up some interesting points worth thinking about when choosing a notetaking app.

(1) How do you feel about giving Matteo (the developer) your Dropbox username and password?

(2) How do you feel about having no control over the sync folder, and no subfolders?

(3) How do you feel about a simple search (compared to Evernote's advanced search)?

(4) How do you feel about having no tags (as far as I know)?

(5) How do you feel about no search within notes (as far as I know)?

(6) How do you feel about losing data? You have to be very careful with the syncing, and you don't have much control over it...

On iOS, notetaking programs that sync with Dropbox are legion. I think a few like notesy stand out from the rest, but this concept is nothing new. For some reason, though, the Android marketplace is a barren wasteland, and there are very few good text editors. It is quite sad. There is a lot of potential with the model, but potential is not terribly practical.

Evernote isn't perfect, and I certainly think there is more room for improvement, but it really is doing something unique, especially if you are concerned about data security / integrity / stability.

Yes, I know. So I'm still using evernote. I download Epistle and haven't sync it to my dropbox. Just keep it and wait to see how far it can go.

As to iOS apps, some of its best can be export to evernote too, so I don't quite use its feature to export to dropbox.

And I don't take my notes on iPad often, its Traditional Chinese keyboard is terribly awful compare to android's.

And its sandbox has too much limitation in doing things. (Like you can't edit images in Evernote directly by Skitch in iOS while you can do that in android. ) I just want to say dropbox has a potential for note-taking apps. Although there're no good apps for now.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Epistle...? Well, that brings up some interesting points worth thinking about when choosing a notetaking app.

(1) How do you feel about giving Matteo (the developer) your Dropbox username and password?

(2) How do you feel about having no control over the sync folder, and no subfolders?

(3) How do you feel about a simple search (compared to Evernote's advanced search)?

(4) How do you feel about having no tags (as far as I know)?

(5) How do you feel about no search within notes (as far as I know)?

(6) How do you feel about losing data? You have to be very careful with the syncing, and you don't have much control over it...

On iOS, notetaking programs that sync with Dropbox are legion. I think a few like notesy stand out from the rest, but this concept is nothing new. For some reason, though, the Android marketplace is a barren wasteland, and there are very few good text editors. It is quite sad. There is a lot of potential with the model, but potential is not terribly practical.

Evernote isn't perfect, and I certainly think there is more room for improvement, but it really is doing something unique, especially if you are concerned about data security / integrity / stability.

Yes, I know. So I'm still using evernote. I download Epistle and haven't sync it to my dropbox. Just keep it and wait to see how far it can go.

As to iOS apps, some of its best can be export to evernote too, so I don't quite use its feature to export to dropbox.

And I don't take my notes on iPad often, its Traditional Chinese keyboard is terribly awful compare to android's.

And its sandbox has too much limitation in doing things. (Like you can't edit images in Evernote directly by Skitch in iOS while you can do that in android. ) I just want to say dropbox has a potential for note-taking apps. Although there're no good apps for now.

Yep. Dropbox and Google Drive have plenty of potential to enable other apps to shine, but weirdly, no one has managed to do it. You would think it would be easy, but I think it is telling that no one can manage it.

To give a concrete example, notesy is a great notetaking app on the ipad that has several features which make it far superior to the Evernote app (sorry Evernote guys and gals!), even though it is a lot simpler: list view, reverse title sort, adjustable note previews, etc. Yet, it falls flat on its face with searches. It is totally incapable of handling a large number of notes (about 10,000). It simply doesn't scale up. Anyone can make a notetaking app that handles a few dozen notes. Only Evernote has managed to go beyond that.

For all of my complaints about the mobile app, Evernote is (as far as I can tell) the only app that has decent searches (some apps will do a single word well, but no more). It is incredible to me that we haven't advanced terribly far since my days tapping with a stylus on the Sony Clie. I think Evernote is quite possibly the only company that takes searches seriously on mobile. The lack of stackable notebooks seems (in my opinion) to be such a laughably minor thing it is almost not worth mentioning. But, that just goes to show why we need lots of options, because I know they matter a lot to some people. Others (developers of notetaking apps) probably think search isn't worth thinking about.

As for traditional Chinese on the iPad, what's the problem? How are you inputting the characters? Pinyin entry brings up the characters and you choose them just as you would on the Mac, for example. The handwriting seems to work fine. I don't see how Android is superior in this respect.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I

As for traditional Chinese on the iPad, what's the problem? How are you inputting the characters? Pinyin entry brings up the characters and you choose them just as you would on the Mac, for example. The handwriting seems to work fine. I don't see how Android is superior in this respect.

I don't quite familiar with Pinyin, which is the most used in mainland China.

We were taught to use ZhuYin in Taiwan. It's an antique that were used in China before 1949. You can look it up here.

I know Pinyin but I type faster with ZhuYin for I still have to "think" while typing with Pinyin.

The ZhuYin on iOS is very problematic.

For example, I want to type the two character word "海浪".

With PinYin, I need to type "Hai lan", or only "HL" then choose from words.

With ZhuYin on Android, I can type "ㄏㄞㄌㄤ"( without tonal marks and the system will choose the word for me) or only "ㄏㄌ" then choose from words.

But on iOS, sorry, I must type "ㄏㄞˇㄌㄤˋ"(including the tonal marks) to get the right word.

On android I can only hit my keyboard three or four times to get a two characters word I want, and on iOS I have to hit at least 6 times, up to 9 times to get it.

Besides, android's input method is customizable. I can choose Swype of Swiftkey to type. And on iOS I have to stuck on the input method of iOS' itsown IM.

Handwriting? You must be kidding. You know how complex Chinese characters are, especially Traditional Chinese.

That would be very very slow.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I

As for traditional Chinese on the iPad, what's the problem? How are you inputting the characters? Pinyin entry brings up the characters and you choose them just as you would on the Mac, for example. The handwriting seems to work fine. I don't see how Android is superior in this respect.

I don't quite familiar with Pinyin, which is the most used in mainland China.

We were taught to use ZhuYin in Taiwan. It's an antique that were used in China before 1949. You can look it up here.

I know Pinyin but I type faster with ZhuYin for I still have to "think" while typing with Pinyin.

The ZhuYin on iOS is very problematic.

For example, I want to type the two character word "海浪".

With PinYin, I need to type "Hai lan", or only "HL" then choose from words.

With ZhuYin on Android, I can type "ㄏㄞㄌㄤ"( without tonal marks and the system will choose the word for me) or only "ㄏㄌ" then choose from words.

But on iOS, sorry, I must type "ㄏㄞˇㄌㄤˋ"(including the tonal marks) to get the right word.

On android I can only hit my keyboard three or four times to get a two characters word I want, and on iOS I have to hit at least 6 times, up to 9 times to get it.

Besides, android's input method is customizable. I can choose Swype of Swiftkey to type. And on iOS I have to stuck on the input method of iOS' itsown IM.

Handwriting? You must be kidding. You know how complex Chinese characters are, especially Traditional Chinese.

That would be very very slow.

I find pinyin to be a lot faster, and zhu yin to be a little painful, mainly because I don't use it on a regular basis. The lack of customizable keyboards in iOS is a pain, but on the other hand, there are no keyboards I really like in Android! As for handwriting, I thought that might be what you meant when you said "trouble," because there is a mix of characters that appear -- only one character recognition program for traditional Chinese, simplified Chinese, and Japanese.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I hope others' replies are like yours.Their "you should do it this way" really make me upset sometimes.

I'm not a person who don't accept advises. I appreciate people like @jbenson2 and @JMichael who try to gave us a workaround.

Although their workarounds sometimes does not meet my need, I still thank them.

I already changed my way of arranging notes a lot and I spent hours on it.

Sometimes it's really a pain to make my notes suit for my workflow.

And lack of feature on some platform made it worse.

I just come to asking for what I need and keep seeing people says " You are wrong, you are reluctant to change, you are not not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags". It's like pouring oil on the flame.

Please stop "quoting" generically (and incorrectly, I might add). The bottom line, as I said above is...

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

Those are cold, hard facts. I'm sorry if the facts make you upset. But it would seem it's best to face them rather than for other board users to lead people on by saying, "yes, I'm sure someday that EN will add feature X so just stick with them.", which would also be untruthful, since none of us (users) know what will or will not be added.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I hope others' replies are like yours.Their "you should do it this way" really make me upset sometimes.

I'm not a person who don't accept advises. I appreciate people like @jbenson2 and @JMichael who try to gave us a workaround.

Although their workarounds sometimes does not meet my need, I still thank them.

I already changed my way of arranging notes a lot and I spent hours on it.

Sometimes it's really a pain to make my notes suit for my workflow.

And lack of feature on some platform made it worse.

I just come to asking for what I need and keep seeing people says " You are wrong, you are reluctant to change, you are not not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags". It's like pouring oil on the flame.

Please stop "quoting" generically (and incorrectly, I might add). The bottom line, as i said above is...

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

Those are cold, hard facts. I'm sorry if the facts make you upset. But it would seem it's best to face them rather than for other board users to lead people on by saying, "yes, I'm sure someday that EN will add feature X so just stick with them.".

I think BNF is saying something important here. We ought to raise issues, voice our opinions, and discuss the merits/demerits of ideas. However, in the end, no one here knows what in the world Evernote is going to do beyond doing more great things (we hope) :)

So, we have to work with the application / platform we have, and modify our usage to conform to its strengths and weaknesses on each client. For example, if you work on the iPad (as I do) you probably shouldn't bother relying stacks, tag hierarchies, modification of metadata, or the creation of note links (speaking only about some of the main organizational strategies) because they don't work on that client. They might someday, but we don't live in the future, so there is no use (today) in trying to force Evernote to fit into an organizational scheme designed for an entirely different environment (folders and sub folders).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
@jefito

Yes, Evernote is the entity that determines how Evernote should work. But if evernote doesn't meet my need, I'll change to another.

Right. I understand that, and I believe that Evernote understands that. The difficulty is that you may never find a perfect solution, and may need to compromise on one or more of your requirements, as you imply in what I snipped.

I'm an almost satisfied customer of Evernote, but I'm still finding others to replace Evernote.

It's not for everyone, I agree.

About "On the battle of organizing the Internet, Yahoo (hierarchical search) lost, and Google won (associative search). Something to think about."

Well, you can not compare an apple with an orange. Did you learn your lessons all by associative links in school? No, I think there must be hierarchical system participate in. A single tree does not make a forest. Hierarchical system is still useful in some way and it can not be abandoned.

That was, as I said, something to think about, not a definitive argument. However: let's face it, I use hierarchies all the time, every day. I've probably traipsed up and down more file directory folders than you've had breakfasts (meaning a lot). I'm not unaware of their utility. However, with Evernote, I am almost completely free of them, and blissfully so. And I understand that the internet is built on hierarchies, too (though it is, as its name implies, actually a network, aka a graph). But most of the time, I am happy to let associative search find things for me.

I'm not sure where you're going with the bit about how I learned my lessons in school; it seems clear to me that we actually do learn associatively, on some level at least. So I'm not sure what your point was.

On the other hand, you *can* compare apples and oranges: http://blogs.smithsonianmag.com/science/2010/11/comparing-apples-and-oranges/ :)

Although you denied the accusation of "seems to think that the way YOU use Evernote is the way evernote is supposed to work." But what you said like "I find it hard to believe that people are not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags as organizational tools", gave us a feeling that you do think so.

Two different statements. Evernote works the way it works, and that's as it was designed and implemented by Evernote. That it works in a way that makes sense for me is great, but I consider that to be a happy coincidence, and if they changed for some reason that doesn't work for me (not that I think they will), I'd just go and find something else. In that, I'm no different than anyone else: I'm just looking for a solution that works the way I want it to, to within some tolerance, as most software requires some compromise.

That's independent of the idea that tags (or labels a la GMail, or categories a la Outlook, or other similar constructs) are somehow conceptually difficult for human beings to understand. I don't believe that. Because they do it all the time -- we refer to items by listing their properties rather than their location in some hierarchy (or some collection of hierarchies). To me, it's as easy as understanding that tags are like language, the noun and adjective part, anyways: you come up with a vocabulary that describes the sorts of things that you store in Evernote, and you apply some subset of it to each note. And to find notes, you do the reverse: describe, in terms of your vocabulary (and possibly some search text) what you are looking for. And this will work whether you store notes hierarchically or in separate non-hierarchical notebooks or even all in one big notebook.

Now, there's one interesting part of the above that isn't strictly relevant to this topic (which is about hierarchical note storage, and which I don't particularly need), but rather about hierarchical tag storage, which already exists in Evernote. The interesting thing to me is that we could really could have more useful search by taking advantage of the existing tag tree structure. Right now, tags are independent of each other with regards to search. For example, if you ave a tag A with a subtags A1, then a tag search on A will not return could return a note tagged with A1 unless it was also explicitly tagged with A. But suppose the Evernote extended the search capability to return such notes -- would that be useful? I think so.

Something to think about...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
I don't think I'm giving too much away if I tell you that at least one is marmite based.

I knew it!

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Evernote's biggest failing here is not being more directly communicative here, not frequently, but with the issues that keep returning with lengthy 'discussions' like these.

If I'm 'director of user relations' and see continued festering around a topic the company has made a decision on I'm going to make sure a definitive statement is made regarding that decision....probably have it as a sticky somewhere...period.

If it's a topic they've closehe door on and aren't fielding discussion on it, fine ,state that. Discussion over.

Evernote doesn't do well in this area.

Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Want nested notebooks? Your directed to Evernotes statement on it.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Who are these users speaking on behalf of Evernote?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Evernote's biggest failing here is not being more directly communicative here, not frequently, but with the issues that keep returning with lengthy 'discussions' like these.

If I'm 'director of user relations' and see continued festering around a topic the company has made a decision on I'm going to make sure a definitive statement is made regarding that decision....probably have it as a sticky somewhere...period.

If it's a topic they've closehe door on and aren't fielding discussion on it, fine ,state that. Discussion over.

Evernote doesn't do well in this area.

Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Want nested notebooks? Your directed to Evernotes statement on it. Done

on or now fine,state that.

It's a user forum. We are not speaking on behalf of Evernote. I suppose it would be nice if developers would jump in and justify each design decision. Sometimes they do, but we rarely agree :)

I think that it takes a lot of work to respond to users, and I suspect they haven't hired a person to take care of customer relations, so that developers can develop. In the end, that may be a wise decision, because users helping out users can be an effective way of "outsourcing" work, and generate a lively community. I am sure they have spoken more about nested notebooks somewhere, but not so much recently. Here is something I dug up in the forums.

http://discussion.ev...ooks/#entry9002

Stacks were introduced a couple of years ago to meet user requests for hierarchies. You can listen to a short discussion of it in the Evernote podcast (Evernote Podcast #24 – The Body Episode. December 27, 2010). Here is a complete list of the podcasts (http://www.princeton...multimedia.html).

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Who are these users speaking on behalf of Evernote?

Not officially on behalf of, but those in this thread (and I've done it myself...cause we're not likely to have evernote pop in here) who explain what Evernote's alluded-to position is on issues ..like nested notes. And saying: 'Evernote is unlikely to ever support nested notes...blah blah) is very true. But it should be backed up with: 'Here is Evernote's statement to date on nested notes'.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Evernote's biggest failing here is not being more directly communicative here, not frequently, but with the issues that keep returning with lengthy 'discussions' like these.

If I'm 'director of user relations' and see continued festering around a topic the company has made a decision on I'm going to make sure a definitive statement is made regarding that decision....probably have it as a sticky somewhere...period.

If it's a topic they've closehe door on and aren't fielding discussion on it, fine ,state that. Discussion over.

Evernote doesn't do well in this area.

Too many users here speaking on behalf of Evernote and thats poor relations behaviour and frustrating for especially new forums users.

Want nested notebooks? Your directed to Evernotes statement on it. Done

on or now fine,state that.

It's a user forum. We are not speaking on behalf of Evernote. I suppose it would be nice if developers would jump in and justify each design decision. Sometimes they do, but we rarely agree :)

I think that it takes a lot of work to respond to users, and I suspect they haven't hired a person to take care of customer relations, so that developers can develop. In the end, that may be a wise decision, because users helping out users can be an effective way of "outsourcing" work, and generate a lively community. I am sure they have spoken more about nested notebooks somewhere, but not so much recently. Here is something I dug up in the forums.

http://discussion.ev...ooks/#entry9002

Stacks were introduced a couple of years ago to meet user requests for hierarchies. You can listen to a short discussion of it in the Evernote podcast (Evernote Podcast #24 – The Body Episode. December 27, 2010). Here is a complete list of the podcasts (http://www.princeton...multimedia.html).

Not officially on behalf of I know, ....but trying to give to newer users an understanding of where Evernote is positioned regarding an issue.

That's a part of any (wise) company's job who want satisfied users and seem responsive to their want's.

It's not a lot of work...at least in the way I described it. Even if it was, is it not prudent to do so?

A vehicle like 'Get Satisfaction', for example polls the most indemand requests and make statements regarding where they are or aren't with regard to their developmental roadmap usually followed by discussion.

There need not even be discussion on customer sites like that. Evernote can say, the only issues we ever discuss are the features we're developing on our open beta's, but also provide statements regarding those top requested features.

If it's ' Sorry but we have no plan's to incorporate nested notebooks at this time". Fine. Thank you. Done.

It's not rocket science, just simple user relations practice.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

And saying: 'Evernote is unlikely to ever support nested notes...blah blah) is very true. But it should be backed up with: 'Here is Evernote's statement to date on nested notes'.

Or....if users want to see the "official" replies from EN, THEY can just search the board, just like GM did... But...they usually don't.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Just to clarify, Evernote have never said that are going to implement any further depth in their notebook hierarchy.

Given that they don't discuss their roadmap, I don't see any reason why they should comment on this specific issue.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Just to clarify, Evernote have never said that are going to implement any further depth in their notebook hierarchy.

Given that they don't discuss their roadmap, I don't see any reason why they should comment on this specific issue.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Just to clarify, Evernote have never said that are going to implement any further depth in their notebook hierarchy.

Given that they don't discuss their roadmap, I don't see any reason why they should comment on this specific issue.

I realize that...but if that statement isn't in a place readily accessable for those wanting EVERNOTE'S position on things like that, (and many who keep coming anew to Evernote will always ask for it!), then that fact is fairly worthless in terms of this forum, and we can keep fielding the question, answer on 'behalf' of Evernote and continue on infinitely with the why's and why not's of the issue.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

And saying: 'Evernote is unlikely to ever support nested notes...blah blah) is very true. But it should be backed up with: 'Here is Evernote's statement to date on nested notes'.

Or....if users want to see the "official" replies from EN, THEY can just search the board, just like GM did... But...they usually don't.

Searching and reading takes a lot of time (especially for people who doesn't use English as their first language, like I.). I searched, but I didn't see what GM post.(Maybe it's because I search with keyword " hierarchical" ) So I misunderstood and got upset when you say hierarchical stacks are not gonna happen. If I see that post, I will directly ask evernote to improve their hierarchical tags. And waste no time on "discussion" of good and bad of tags and hierarchical system.

And Evernote, please add what JMichael said at #42 of this topic:

Add a minor enhancement to your search engine to include child tags in a search for a parent tag,

Or just tag child tag's note with parent tag and remove the tag when child tag remove from parent tag.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Searching a reading takes a lot of time (especially for people who doesn't use English as their first language, like I.). I searched, but I didn't see what GM post. So I misunderstood and got upset when you say hierarchical stacks are not gonna happen. If I see that post, I will directly ask evernote to improve their hierarchical tags. And waste no time on "discussion" of good and bad of tags and hierarchical system.

This is a user forum, and discussion is up to the users to direct -- so participate, or not, as you choose. But just so you know: Evernote staffers do read everything posted in these forums, as best I can tell. They sometimes comment, but not always. It's clear that they know about the desire for adding arbitrary notebook nesting, semantic tag trees, and the like, and have thought about it, but haven't done it yet, if they ever will.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

And saying: 'Evernote is unlikely to ever support nested notes...blah blah) is very true. But it should be backed up with: 'Here is Evernote's statement to date on nested notes'.

Or....if users want to see the "official" replies from EN, THEY can just search the board, just like GM did... But...they usually don't.

Searching a reading takes a lot of time (especially for people who doesn't use English as their first language, like I.). I searched, but I didn't see what GM post. So I misunderstood and got upset when you say hierarchical stacks are not gonna happen. If I see that post, I will directly ask evernote to improve their hierarchical tags. And waste no time on "discussion" of good and bad of tags and hierarchical system.

You can search sure, and get a weeks worth of reading on nested notebooks and the fact that they ain't gonna happen. Good luck sifting out Evernote responding directly to it. It's there but a needle in a haystack.

Evernote having it's own accessible(closed to discussion) place on the forum, responding with statements regarding most highly requested features is painless.

Saying 'They don't comment on their roadmap' is true. Even less painless. But poor user relation practice. They can make a statement and not have to return to it.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
Searching a reading takes a lot of time (especially for people who doesn't use English as their first language, like I.). I searched, but I didn't see what GM post. So I misunderstood and got upset when you say hierarchical stacks are not gonna happen. If I see that post, I will directly ask evernote to improve their hierarchical tags. And waste no time on "discussion" of good and bad of tags and hierarchical system.

This is a user forum, and discussion is up to the users to direct -- so participate, or not, as you choose. But just so you know: Evernote staffers do read everything posted in these forums, as best I can tell. They sometimes comment, but not always. It's clear that they know about the desire for adding arbitrary notebook nesting, semantic tag trees, and the like, and have thought about it, but haven't done it yet, if they ever will.

I like to discuss, but not in this way. Base on some misunderstanding and almost had a quarrel. That's not what I want to do.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
I like to discuss, but not in this way. Base on some misunderstanding and almost had a quarrel. That's not what I want to do.

Understood. Sorry that you had a bad experience, but good luck anyways.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I don't know if it is good or bad customer relations. It is what it is. Amazon, Apple, Ford, Google, Toyota, etc., etc. are all major companies with many customers, and I've rarely seen them offering roadmaps for features. It's nice when they do, and I'd like Evernote to do more posting about their roadmaps, but they're not beyond the pale on this.

They do read, so post an argument for your position. Maybe it will help convince them. See the links I posted to the posts and podcasts if you want the latest word (as far as I know) from the Elephant's mouth.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I hope others' replies are like yours.Their "you should do it this way" really make me upset sometimes.

I'm not a person who don't accept advises. I appreciate people like @jbenson2 and @JMichael who try to gave us a workaround.

Although their workarounds sometimes does not meet my need, I still thank them.

I already changed my way of arranging notes a lot and I spent hours on it.

Sometimes it's really a pain to make my notes suit for my workflow.

And lack of feature on some platform made it worse.

I just come to asking for what I need and keep seeing people says " You are wrong, you are reluctant to change, you are not not sophisticated enough to learn how to use tags". It's like pouring oil on the flame.

Please stop "quoting" generically (and incorrectly, I might add). The bottom line, as I said above is...

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

Those are cold, hard facts. I'm sorry if the facts make you upset. But it would seem it's best to face them rather than for other board users to lead people on by saying, "yes, I'm sure someday that EN will add feature X so just stick with them.", which would also be untruthful, since none of us (users) know what will or will not be added.

I think what concerns me about your statement of facts is that it could be read as "Look, EN works the way it works today and if you don't like it, stop using it." That is bad for everyone including EN. Forums are for suggestions and complaints as much as they are for help and praise.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I think what concerns me about your statement of facts is that it could be read as "Look, EN works the way it works today and if you don't like it, stop using it." That is bad for everyone including EN. Forums are for suggestions and complaints as much as they are for help and praise.

Geez, do we really have to keep going around & around in this circle??? I guess you failed to overlook my initial comment on the subject in this thread::

However, if nested notebooks is a deal breaker for you, then EN is not the product for you.

First, please point out where I said no one should post suggestions or complaints.

Second, yeah, as I've said multiple times before, if the way Evernote works today is a deal breaker for you, then yes, you should find another app. Trying to "force" someone to use Evernote as it is today, when a particular feature is a deal breaker for them is not only dishonest (IMO) but also probably futile. Users are presented with workarounds. They can choose to adopt them or not. It's their choice. So we're back to...if it's a deal breaker for you... And I think Evernote would agree with that.

If you are so set on nested notebooks that this is a deal breaker for you, then you should find another app.

Fine. If this is a deal breaker for you, then Evernote is clearly not for you. (shrug) To use Jefito's phrase, "That's why there's chocolate & vanilla."

So if this is a deal breaker or makes you uncomfortable with using the system, then Evernote may not be the right tool for you.

If this is a deal breaker for OP, then OP should look for another app.

To point out just few because, (to reiterate):

Or it could be as simple as priorities... We just don't know.

In the end, speculation by any of us is futile. EN is what it is & they don't post roadmaps or ETAs. So deal with it or find another app. Simple as that.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Geez, do we really have to keep going around & around in this circle??? I guess you failed to overlook my initial comment on the subject in this thread::

Nope... I will however continue to regularly suggest on the EN forum that they add nested folders. If that doesn't work for you you should find a different forum to use. In the meantime I will continue to use EN.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Hi dropbox team,

have you considered adding the possibility to add subnotebooks (subsubnotebook and so on) to a existing notebook?

At the moment, you can only create a major notebook and add one level below another notebook where you then can add new notes.

I hope you know what i mean. :-)

KR

Thomas

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Hi and welcome to the forums !

EN has decided that there are no Sub-notebooks at the moment. You can create STACKS which will allow you to have a visual representation of sub-notebooks. Here is info on how to use stacks.
This has been discussed here at length already. Use the search function.
Wern

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Additionally, you can use tags to replicate sub notebook functionality. As Wern said, this has already been discussed at great length on the board.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

There are many things tags do not do despite what everyone on this forum seems to have been brainwashed to believe.

First, you can not share the contents of a tag.

You can not export it's content the same way.

You can not decide to make its content local or sync.

FINALLY, for all the talk about being able to replicate a folder/subfolder structure with tags, I would like to point out that that all goes down the drain as soon as you get on an IOS device like an iPad. There it will just read your tags as being all on the same level.

I can't repeat it enough. WHYYY this ridiculous limit on premium users. Just let people organize their thousands of notes as they wish. This really is not cool and introduces sync errors which is really scary.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I am posting these new findings after doing some tests.

The results are troubling and The Evernote team really needs to address this.

When you have more than 250, everytime you will try to sync a new note it will give you the error and then it will look like it went away and it's now syncing BUT HERE'S THE CATCH! If you go and look on a different device, like your Ipad or the web client, The note itself will have been uploaded but it will be created in your default notebook , NOT in the notebook where you created it on your desktop. So what this is doing is breaking the symmetry you once had on all your devices. Now Notes will be at different places. NOW here's what's even scarier . If you make any changes in that note on that other device, it will sync and then move your note into the default folder on the desktop app. SO that means it is disorganizing your notes ! You will be looking for said note and it will have disappeared and moved to your default folder.

What This means is that what once was this beautiful symmetry on all your devices is now all screwed up by the inconsistencies introduced by this 250 limit.

Another thing that makes no sense what so ever is that Once a notebook is created you can not change it's sync options. So there is no easy way to manage tis 250 synced notebooks limit by toggling them on or offline. And since it does not warn you nor let you monitor how many notebooks you currently have, when you create a new one it defaults to synced notebook even if you are over your limit . It would make a lot more sense if once the limit reached it could only create local notebooks. At least it would prevent us from messing up all our notes by the previously described scenario. I dont know how no one at EN has missed this issue...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

The way I achieve unlimited stacks is by using X-marks in conjunction with Evernote. Every time I add a note to Evernote I just grab the note URL then create the folder structure the way I want it in X-marks with the URL.

Not only does this breaks me out of the limitation of Evernote stacks but I get all the benefits of X-marks too!

I am sure sooner or later someone will create a third party application that does something like this automatically because everyone loves Evernote's storage model however there has to be a massive market for people who want to break these stack limitations. I would pay like a $100 bucks any day to have a software that would break me free of tagging. Personally it doesn't appeal to me because it's not visual like folders.

For the time being Evernote is the 100 pound gorilla in the room and it's benefits still outweigh it's shortcomings.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Well, yes, a developer can always play the game of: "Evernote has 40 million or more customers, so if I can sell a product that captures 1% of them, then that's like 400K. WooHoo!! Porsche-ville, here I come!!" (this is of course the same line of reasoning that launched 1,000 *****, ahem, flatulence apps in the Apple store, well, for awhile anyways).

Anyhow, the sort of needing to fumble with note links by hand that you describe seems the antithesis of what Evernote is about, which is capturing -- and categorizing -- lots of stuff you're interested in, simply and easily (that plus X-Marks munged up my bookmarks enough times that I have a hard time trusting them anymore). Frankly, there are no third-party add-ons for Evernote that I use at all these days -- plain old Evernote works pretty well for me, straight up. But then again, I'm not in dire need of even more nested folder structures in my life, however visual they may be.

Nevertheless, that's an interesting tip, and I hope that some other folks find it useful.

BTW, I think that the metaphor you're reaching for is "800 pound gorilla". A 100 pound gorilla would be pretty puny (http://en.wikipedia....characteristics). :)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Hi. I've wondered, why it is isn't possible to make a notebook in the notebook you've already made? I use Evernote for school and it's really hard to find the things you're looking for sometimes. I don't know if it's a possibility when you've got Evernote Premium?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Hi and welcome to the forums !

This topic has been discusssed here at length. Please use the Search function.
In EN you can create STACKS which can hold notebooks. With Stacks you can probably accomplish what you want to do. You can read about Stacks here.
Thinking for some time on HOW you are going to organize your notes (and tags) is time well spent and will also help to find them later with ease.

Wern

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

And no, premium accounts cannot make sub notebooks. As Wern said, stacks, notebooks & tags are the way to organize your notes in Evernote & there is already a lot of discussion on the topic on the board.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

an alternative (Android, PC, IOS ) is Wiz Note...unlimited sub tags and sub notebooks....also loads entire web pages as notes if your saving web info.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I have grown to be a huge fan of Evernote over the last several months but I agree with the OP and many others that this feature is needed. I dont use tags for organizational purposes, I use them for relational purposes. I'd like to see the nesting of notbooks added so I can orgainze my notes as I see fit. I agree that using tags is a nice workaround, but it is just that, a workaround. Evernote, please add this feature, its the only thing keeping Evernote from being perfect to me.

Those of you who think tags are a better solution:

I'd ask you what hurt it would be to have the additional flexability to have nested notebooks (more than one level deep). You would presumably still be able to use tags if you prefer, so why not support this additional flexability for those of us who prefer to organize differently than you?

Thanks,

Marshall

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I have grown to be a huge fan of Evernote over the last several months but I agree with the OP and many others that this feature is needed. I dont use tags for organizational purposes, I use them for relational purposes. I'd like to see the nesting of notbooks added so I can orgainze my notes as I see fit. I agree that using tags is a nice workaround, but it is just that, a workaround. Evernote, please add this feature, its the only thing keeping Evernote from being perfect to me.

Those of you who think tags are a better solution:

I'd ask you what hurt it would be to have the additional flexability to have nested notebooks (more than one level deep). You would presumably still be able to use tags if you prefer, so why not support this additional flexability for those of us who prefer to organize differently than you?

Thanks,

Marshall

Funny b/c it really doesn't matter what "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" think. What matters is how Evernote functions. The way EN has functioned since it's introduction in early 2008 up to & including today is no sub/nested notebooks. It doesn't appear this will change any time soon. As for me, I find EN invaluable and prefer to spend my time using as it is (and really, I've yet to find a use care where tags don't function similarly to sub notebooks) rather than boycott/protest a feature that may or may not ever appear. If an app works for me, great. If not, I go find one that will. As Jefito says, that's why there's chocolate & vanilla.

And if you think sub notebooks are so invaluable, why would you possibly need to try to get those who are ok w/o subnotebooks to support your request?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I have grown to be a huge fan of Evernote over the last several months but I agree with the OP and many others that this feature is needed. I dont use tags for organizational purposes, I use them for relational purposes. I'd like to see the nesting of notbooks added so I can orgainze my notes as I see fit. I agree that using tags is a nice workaround, but it is just that, a workaround. Evernote, please add this feature, its the only thing keeping Evernote from being perfect to me.

Those of you who think tags are a better solution:

I'd ask you what hurt it would be to have the additional flexability to have nested notebooks (more than one level deep). You would presumably still be able to use tags if you prefer, so why not support this additional flexability for those of us who prefer to organize differently than you?

Thanks,

Marshall

Funny b/c it really doesn't matter what "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" think. What matters is how Evernote functions. The way EN has functioned since it's introduction in early 2008 up to & including today is no sub/nested notebooks. It doesn't appear this will change any time soon. As for me, I find EN invaluable and prefer to spend my time using as it is (and really, I've yet to find a use care where tags don't function similarly to sub notebooks) rather than boycott/protest a feature that may or may not ever appear. If an app works for me, great. If not, I go find one that will. As Jefito says, that's why there's chocolate & vanilla.

And if you think sub notebooks are so invaluable, why would you possibly need to try to get those who are ok w/o subnotebooks to support your request?

I didn't mean to imply that I'm unhappy with Evernote. I LOVE Evernote :) I just think it is missing this one feature.

But to me, it seems that many in this thread aren't interested in this feature to the point of suggesting to people like myself to just live with it the way it is. I take a different approach. If features are requested by others, that I dont need, I guess I wouldn't lobby for those features as you said, but I also wouldn't tell the people who want those features to just live with it the way it is because I recognize their needs are different that mine. And additionally, why is it so bad to ask software developers for new features? I am a software developer and I delight in giving my users features that make thier experience better.

I am not sure why you think I am boycotting or protesting. I'm just asking for something I think would make the app better. No way I'm moving on to another app because of this, Evernote is too awesome!

Also, the quote of mine you mentioned "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" was not worded very well. I should have said "those of you who find tags a better solution." I realize the way it is worded might make you think that I think tag people are wrong somehow, which I do not :)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

but I also wouldn't tell the people who want those features to just live with it the way it is because I recognize their needs are different that mine.

Well, I don't know what you expect then. This is a user's forum & we don't write this code. We don't control Evernote's priority list. So there really is no other answer other than for us to tell you to use a work around or adapt & use the software as it is or find something else. It's really that simple. Anything else would be misleading, unfair and/or a lie. It's that way with every piece of software, that is not your own code. If it doesn't work for you, then you either adapt or find another app.

And additionally, why is it so bad to ask software developers for new features?

Please point out where anyone has told you it's bad to ask for new features. I'm pretty sure no one did.

I didn't mean to imply that I'm unhappy with Evernote. I LOVE Evernote :)

I agree with you that Evernote is great. :)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I agree with lpr completely. This issue would simply go away if there were no folder limits. If it costs more to provide them, just charge a fair price. That's what all online storage services do anyway. I really, really, really, don't get why there is a folder limit when there is all that storage space available. All these workarounds with tagging, etc., do not address how my company needs to work. It's no doubt my own fault.... a lack of research on my part....but I got my whole company involved in using Evernote without realizing we were going to reach a folder limit. Sharing folders is critical to our sales team which is spread out up and down the coast. After researching some other options, we had decided on Evernote BECAUSE we could share folders. We experimented with the tagging for a while at first, but being able to share a folder proved to be the only way that actually works for us. Now...suddenly...we can't create any more shared folders. I admit...My bad. So sadly...goodbye Evernote...hello DropBox.....or whatever the best equivilant is.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I agree with lpr completely. This issue would simply go away if there were no folder limits. If it costs more to provide them, just charge a fair price. That's what all online storage services do anyway. I really, really, really, don't get why there is a folder limit when there is all that storage space available. All these workarounds with tagging, etc., do not address how my company needs to work. It's no doubt my own fault.... a lack of research on my part....but I got my whole company involved in using Evernote without realizing we were going to reach a folder limit. Sharing folders is critical to our sales team which is spread out up and down the coast. After researching some other options, we had decided on Evernote BECAUSE we could share folders. We experimented with the tagging for a while at first, but being able to share a folder proved to be the only way that actually works for us. Now...suddenly...we can't create any more shared folders. I admit...My bad. So sadly...goodbye Evernote...hello DropBox.....or whatever the best equivilant is.

Comparing Evernote to Dropbox is comparing oranges to apples. They are similar in that they are cloud services. Other than that, they are different. Evernote is a database of notes & since I'm guessing it would require a major overhaul of all the existing Evernote clients & the service, it may well be that to cover their costs, they would have to charge something like several hundred dollars a year rather than $45 (or free for most users.)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

"Comparing Evernote to Dropbox is comparing oranges to apples".........

I wasn't comparing Evernote to Dropbox at all. I am looking for a way to work with my sales team that allows us all to view, add to, and edit, files, no matter who first entered them. Evernote was working fine until I ran into the folder limit. I frankly haven't found any other option that suits us perfectly, but at least in Dropbox, I can share all the folders and I don't have to worry about limits. If I need more storage, I just up the limit. In an earlier post, jbenson2 said "A word of caution – many of the Evernote power users have found fewer notebooks are more useful than many notebooks." Well, the opposite is also true.....there are many Evernote users who heavily depend on folders as their primary structure, since they can share the folders with anyone. With just a little searching, I have found several threads where this is a big issue. It seems that Evernote is pushing the tagging strategy on everyone regardless of what might actually work better. For my company, the shared folder structure absolutely works better than tags. If they won't up the folder limit, I have to do something else.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

@rgp: While tagging is indeed an important part of the Evernote organizational toolset (I couldn't/wouldn't use Evernote without them), notebooks (there are no folders in Evernote) are also, as noted earlier in the thread. Good use of Evernote requires a user to find a balance. If you cannot or will not use tags, and you need more notebooks than Evernote allows, then unfortunately it may not be the product for you, at least at this time.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

The tagging aspect of Evernote is simply a way of classifying or categorizing a note. That is great for making searches, but it is not the same capability as a "Notebook", which is essentially nothing more than a folder system. In MS Outlook, they allow you to create folders to classify or categorize the emails you want to store. Google's version of this is called "Labels". Both of these are merely the same thing - folders serving as categories. It is specifically the shared "notebook" system in Evernote that is attractive to a lot of users, especially those with many different individuals or teams who need access to the same space. It is a much more familiar and simpler system for most people to use, especially given that you can't share tags the way you can share notebooks.

You mentioned..... "if you cannot or will not use tags...." suggesting that the problem is on my end. Wrong assumption. I was using Evernote happily until 2 days ago when I hit the brick wall of notebook limits. My team loved the system we had set up, and it was working perfectly for everyone. Earlier, we had experimented with making the use of tags the primary way of getting things done, and NO ONE in my entire company thought that it was simpler than using the notebooks as the primary structure. And as I have stated, there are a number of threads discussing this issue, and I am not the only one dissatisfied with this limitation. I went to these forums hoping to find that there might be something in the works to end the limitations on notebooks, or even to allow me to upgrade to a different level of service. Instead what I have found is a lot statements promoting the thought that I'm most likely the problem...and that I'm really not using Evernote correctly. Hmmmm......so, you're right, it evidently is not the product for me.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I don't think anyone is saying that you aren't using Evernote correctly.

But, if you want to use Evernote now then you have to adapt to the restrictions that the service has whether that is individual note size, monthly uploads, number of notebooks or whatever.

Evernote don't discuss their roadmap or release strategy and I'd guess that the current notebook limit is not based on an arbitrary number but more likely on an architectural or design constraint so it's impossible to know whether a change is around the corner or 2 years away.

So, rationalise your notebooks, tag what you can and make it work for you, or don't, go ahead and pick something else. Freedom of choice is a great thing.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Freedom of choice is great...but unfortunately that is not exactly what this is. My current frustration is based on the investment and the amount of work we have put in Evernote to date that is all, now, going to be wasted, as it all has to be moved or duplicated into a service that doesn't have this limitation. I freely admit that it was my own lack of research that allowed me to get caught by surprise with the notebook limitations. So I have no one to blame but myself in the end. Frankly, it was easy to assume that Evernote would allow growth...as in fact, they promote that idea a lot......just like most other online storage services. The fact that they don't allow growth in this one basic area was easy to miss, and for that very reason is frustrating.........absolutely not something I expected. And I am not the only one who has missed this,as is evidenced by a number of other threads on this subject. Notebook limitation is not one of their main headlines when they are promoting the product. And, clearly, if I had caught that fact earlier, I would have realized that this was not the service for my company's growth. Again...my bad.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

The tagging aspect of Evernote is simply a way of classifying or categorizing a note. That is great for making searches, but it is not the same capability as a "Notebook", which is essentially nothing more than a folder system. In MS Outlook, they allow you to create folders to classify or categorize the emails you want to store. Google's version of this is called "Labels". Both of these are merely the same thing - folders serving as categories. It is specifically the shared "notebook" system in Evernote that is attractive to a lot of users, especially those with many different individuals or teams who need access to the same space. It is a much more familiar and simpler system for most people to use, especially given that you can't share tags the way you can share notebooks.

Here are some pretty well understood facts:

  • Notebooks are not the same as tags: A note belongs to exactly one notebook; a note can have multiple tags.
  • Evernote tags == Outlook Categories == GMail Labels. However Outlook's Categories and GMail's Labels are not folder systems. Both Outlook and GMail have separate folder systems, so you can mix'n'match, just like with Evernote (though Evernote's notebooks have the also-well-known properties of being one level deep, albeit organizable in stacks). Tags, Labels and Categories all function like adjectives.
  • Folders are more familiar, it's true, but not necessarily simpler, particularly when you try to scale them to larger systems of disparate items. My old example of classifying a red ball is a case in point; do I put it in the 'Red' folder or the 'Spherical' folder or the 'Toy' folder? It's not something that has a single easy answer, whereas it's pretty simple to describe it using tags. And tags are also quite familiar, if you understand them as simple adjectives or labels. I'd guess that most people learn adjectives before they learn strict hierarchies.

The sharing bit is not as familiar to me, but as I understand it, a person who has a notebook shared to them can use existing tags in the sharer to apply to a note in the folder. As far as I can tell, that would make those tags 'shared', in some sense. They don't share in the same way as folders do; they just come along for the ride. I would gladly be corrected in this case if I'm wrong, though -- I don't use notebook sharing to any serious extent.

You mentioned..... "if you cannot or will not use tags...." suggesting that the problem is on my end. Wrong assumption.

That might have been a little ambiguous: the 'you' merely refers to the general Evernote user. It's been my experience in dealing with Evernote users of all stripes, some have difficulty conceptualizing tags, some just will not use them, for reasons of their own.

I was using Evernote happily until 2 days ago when I hit the brick wall of notebook limits. My team loved the system we had set up, and it was working perfectly for everyone. Earlier, we had experimented with making the use of tags the primary way of getting things done, and NO ONE in my entire company thought that it was simpler than using the notebooks as the primary structure. And as I have stated, there are a number of threads discussing this issue, and I am not the only one dissatisfied with this limitation. I went to these forums hoping to find that there might be something in the works to end the limitations on notebooks, or even to allow me to upgrade to a different level of service.
I went to these forums hoping to find that there might be something in the works to end the limitations on notebooks, or even to allow me to upgrade to a different level of service. Instead what I have found is a lot statements promoting the thought that I'm most likely the problem...and that I'm really not using Evernote correctly. Hmmmm......so, you're right, it evidently is not the product for me.

First thing: Evernote doesn't typically reveal their plans in advance of release, save for beta clients. There are no secret tricks, no super-premier levels, only 250 notebooks, and we can only deal with Evernote as it is, not as we wish it would be.

Second, nobody's really saying that you're using Evernote incorrectly; there's a limitation that you've bumped up against. It's not clear to me whether mixing in tags would help you alleviate the problem, or not (I reiterate that I am not a sharing expert). I only know what you yourself said: that you and your team preferred notebooks over tags. If they won't help you solve your problem and you really, really, really need 250 notebooks, then there really is no other conclusion at this time: Evernote is not the product for you. That's not the same thing as saying that you're using it incorrectly, but you are attempting to use it in excess of its limitations, which you now know.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

  • Evernote tags == Outlook Categories == GMail Labels. However Outlook's Categories and GMail's Labels are not folder systems. Both Outlook and GMail have separate folder systems, so you can mix'n'match, just like with Evernote (though Evernote's notebooks have the also-well-known properties of being one level deep, albeit organizable in stacks). Tags, Labels and Categories all function like adjectives.
  • Folders are more familiar, it's true, but not necessarily simpler, particularly when you try to scale them to larger systems of disparate items. My old example of classifying a red ball is a case in point; do I put it in the 'Red' folder or the 'Spherical' folder or the 'Toy' folder? It's not something that has a single easy answer, whereas it's pretty simple to describe it using tags. And tags are also quite familiar, if you understand them as simple adjectives or labels. I'd guess that most people learn adjectives before they learn strict hierarchies.

I think I have to disagree with you slightly on the folder systems in Outlook and Gmail. If you look at that structure on your screen, they both look and operate exactly as your normal folder system on your hard drive. I can even put folders inside of other folders in both these programs. Specifically it is this appearance and familiarity that makes them so simple to use. And in spite of the differences in their terminology, my Outlook folders and sub-folders sync perfectly with Gmail's labels. Outlook then has additional CATEGORIES that you can use, and these are more similar to Evernote's Tags.

Evernote's combination of tags and notebooks work well together, but when many users are involved who all need access to the same notebook, how can more tagging help? We tried it all, and tagging is not the answer. A folder structure may not always be simpler, but SHARED folders (notebooks) are the only thing that work across many desktops and mobile smartphones. Under that scenario, tagging is not simpler at all. Unlimited notebooks is the answer for my company, and probably any other companies who need what we need.

I am not bashing Evernote. We love it, and it was working well for us. I just ran out of notebooks.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
I think I have to disagree with you slightly on the folder systems in Outlook and Gmail. If you look at that structure on your screen, they both look and operate exactly as your normal folder system on your hard drive. I can even put folders inside of other folders in both these programs. Specifically it is this appearance and familiarity that makes them so simple to use. And in spite of the differences in their terminology, my Outlook folders and sub-folders sync perfectly with Gmail's labels. Outlook then has additional CATEGORIES that you can use, and these are more similar to Evernote's Tags.

One note: what you quoted from me ("Evernote tags == Outlook Categories == GMail Labels") describes Outlook's categories, not its folder system a wholly separate mechanism. More on this follows.

Maybe there's some terminology confusion going on here. When I speak of folder systems, I am describing a storage mechanism. Folders typically tend to present a system whereby you store an object in exactly one place (and yes, I understand that some folder systems have ways of making it appear that an object can appear in more than one folder, via links or what not). Whereas tags (or labels or categories or keywords) are a description mechanism; they present a way of describing an object. In folder systems, there is typically exactly one place where you store an object, whereas you can typically apply multiple labels to a single object. To find an object in a folder system, you need to know where it is in the tree (though a lot of folder systems have ways of finding objects by describing their content, e.g. Searchlight, Windows desktop search, etc.). To find an object in a tagged system, you need to know how it's tagged (in Evernote and other systems, you can also search by describing their content as well).

Not all hierarchically presented systems are folder systems; meanwhile not all folder systems present arbitrarily nestable hierarchies. So:

Outlook has categories, and it has folders. Outlook's categories are not folder systems; they actually behave a lot like Evernote tags; they do not operate like a folder on your hard drive.

GMail has labels (I think that I erred in claiming that they also have a folder system; I went back and took a closer look). GMail's labels behave a lot like Evernote tags. When I say a lot, I mean this: if you click on a label in the left-hand column, you get emails with that label, and not emails with its sublabels (unless an email is explicitly also labelled with that sublabel). This is almost exactly like Evernote's UI behavior.

Evernote's notebooks are like folders. Each note goes into exactly one notebook.

Evernote's combination of tags and notebooks work well together, but when many users are involved who all need access to the same notebook, how can more tagging help?

I don't know the problem that you are trying to solve. If you are trying to implement a permissions scheme (e.g., Pat has access to notebooks A and B but not C, while Chris has access to A and C but not B), I can see that that wouldn't work; it's just not designed for that and it wouldn't scale over a large number of users. Other problems might be more tractable.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I just downloaded v. 5.0 (I never owned a previous version). I am still deciding if I want to really rely on Evernote to store all of my information.

I understand how to make a stack, but I need to create stacks within stacks. Am I correct that this cannot be done? If so, it is a deal-breaker. Imagine your computer operating system not allowing you to nest folders more than one level?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

You're correct. Notebooks can go into stacks but stacks can't go into other stacks.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Welcome to the forums. It's a bit of a perennial topic round here, but tardis is on point. There are only three "levels" of traditional hierarchy within Evernote--Note, Notebook, Stacks. While some users move in the direction of a traditional file system (with lots of notebooks) you'll see plenty of argument in favor of a strong tagging/search/titling regime around here.

Personally, I have about 20 notebooks with only 5 I use regularly. The only stack I have is one for all notebooks shared with me. Which I am loving in the new V5 client. I think the combination of all notebooks, shared included, into one notebook area is one of the best facets of V5, and hasn't received half as much attention as say shortcuts.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I just downloaded v. 5.0 (I never owned a previous version). I am still deciding if I want to really rely on Evernote to store all of my information.

I understand how to make a stack, but I need to create stacks within stacks. Am I correct that this cannot be done? If so, it is a deal-breaker. Imagine your computer operating system not allowing you to nest folders more than one level?

I use hierarchical tags to achieve this. I only have 3-4 notebooks, but I have many many levels of tags.

  • Like 3

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Am I correct that this cannot be done? If so, it is a deal-breaker. Imagine your computer operating system not allowing you to nest folders more than one level?

Although I'm PC, the more notes/images/documents I acquire, I've found the folder system to be very, very limiting. Jefito's 'red, round ball' is a perfect example, IMO.

"Easy example. I have a red ball. Using a strictly hierarchical classification system, where does that ball go? In the tree under Toys? Under Things That Are Round? Or maybe under Things That Are Red? I don't think that this fits nicely into a tree structure, yet it seems perfectly suited for tags (e.g., "red", "round", "toy"). "

People like to say that the tag system works better if you have only a few notes & that you need sub notebooks if you have a lot of notes. IMO & IME, the reverse is true. The more notes you have the more limiting/prohibitive/harder-to-find-what-you're-looking-for a nested folder system is.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Am I correct that this cannot be done? If so, it is a deal-breaker. Imagine your computer operating system not allowing you to nest folders more than one level?

Although I'm PC, the more notes/images/documents I acquire, I've found the folder system to be very, very limiting. Jefito's 'red, round ball' is a perfect example, IMO.

"Easy example. I have a red ball. Using a strictly hierarchical classification system, where does that ball go? In the tree under Toys? Under Things That Are Round? Or maybe under Things That Are Red? I don't think that this fits nicely into a tree structure, yet it seems perfectly suited for tags (e.g., "red", "round", "toy"). "

People like to say that the tag system works better if you have only a few notes & that you need sub notebooks if you have a lot of notes. IMO & IME, the reverse is true. The more notes you have the more limiting/prohibitive/harder-to-find-what-you're-looking-for a nested folder system is.

It is very much a function of what you do with EN. I am an architect and I track info by projects. If I have a drawing of an operating room for Project A, I put it in the Project A notebook. That is one quick easy step. Later I may come back and tag it as "Surgery" so that I can search for all of the operating rooms across all of the projects. In the mean time I can quickly look at my Project A folder and see the thumbnails of all of the images in that project. I understand that I could make a tag for Project A as well but I am much more comfortable with nested notebooks in a project stack.

Hughjc

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I too need the functionality of sub-notebooks. As a project management consultant I work for many companies and have clients under those companies who have various projects. Evernote has become significantly less useful without this ability. While your search capabilities are fast it is an extra step requiring time to go off task and search. Poor decision by the board! Evernote needs to become more in touch with your users.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

but I am much more comfortable with nested notebooks in a project stack.

And that is exactly what people need to overcome. Really. Let go of folders/sub-folders. It's brilliant. Tags let you do the same thing.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I too need the functionality of sub-notebooks. As a project management consultant I work for many companies and have clients under those companies who have various projects. Evernote has become significantly less useful without this ability. While your search capabilities are fast it is an extra step requiring time to go off task and search. Poor decision by the board! Evernote needs to become more in touch with your users.

This topic has been discusssed here at length. Please use the Search function.

In EN you can create STACKS which can hold notebooks. With Stacks you can probably accomplish what you want to do. You can read about Stacks here.

Thinking for some time on HOW you are going to organize your notes (and tags) is time well spent and will also help to find them later with ease.

BTW, not sure what you mean about "poor decision by the board". This is a users board. EN decisions are made by EN owners & top tier management. Not this message board. (Pretty standard company stuff.)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

The problem is, only advanced users would know to leverage their tags for nested organization. I have used Evernote for two years, and I have never used the Tags feature. "Tags" so broadly apply to different functionality in different applications and websites, that it is not an inherent given, for new Evernote users, how they should utilize their tags to their advantage. From a UX perspective, it makes sense that a user would think Evernote would have folders. Here we have an application that allows you to collect and create lots of individual pieces of content. Yes, it could be managed with a tagging system, but I'd argue that a new user would expect "Folders" to organize their content before "Tags."

My feeling is that Evernote wants people to get to know their usability style. They've created and defined a system using Tags, and people should learn how to use Tags. But there is value from a UX perspective in providing the features that users expect, rather than teaching them how to use your software. Build software that users already know how to use.

As a use case, I searched for and found this thread because I was confused why you could drag and drop Notebooks onto Notebooks to create Stacks, but not Stacks onto Stacks to create sub-Stacks. I was so sure (and excited) that I'd be able to do this, and then was surprised when I wasn't able to.

Why not make Stacks stackable? What confusion or disadvantage would it generate? Does it encroach on the functionality of the Tags system? I'd argue that it enhances it; I can't see any downsides to enabling this functionality. Have any usability surveys shown that users don't want or expect folders?

Not only that, but it would be wonderful to be able to share sub-Stacks. I love how in Dropbox or Google Drive (also repositories of content), I can create my own hierarchy of folders, and then share sub-folders. I would love to be able to have a "Clients" Stack, and then all of my clients' Stacks inside it. And then maybe Stacks inside those Stacks, to share with different departments in the company (Accounting, Sales, Marketing, etc).

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

As a feature request, this area is pretty well known to the Evernote development teams. I am sure that they know all of the pros and cons. It's been requested/debated for as long as I've been coming to these forums, and probably longer. And who knows, maybe they'll deliver this type of feature someday; they don't tend to preannounce such things, though. So for now, at least, they've chosen the stack/notebook/note/tag architecture that they have. It's definitely usable, and not that difficult conceptually, based for the most part on common physical analogs:

A note is the smallest unit of Evernote content. You can store text (possibly HTML-based), images and attachments in a note.

A notebook is a named collection of notes. Each note belongs to exactly one notebook.

A stack is a named collection of notebooks. Each notebook can belong to exactly one stack.

Tags are labels that can apply to notes. A note can have an arbitrary number of tags, and a tag can be applied to an arbitrary number of notes.

Funny how we take concepts from the commonplace physical world (Notebooks of notes? Stacks of notebooks?) and try to make them something else when they are used in the less tangible world of computers, to the point of demanding that the new meanings are actually more "intuitive" than the familiar old meanings. This fact of modern-day computing UX didn't just spring up out of the ground; people had to learn how to use arbitrarily nested structures (folders, directories, what-have-yous), as well as many other computer idioms. And people can learn the above architecture; in fact, it's not too dissimilar from the ones used in other well-known, widely-used products -- how about GMail for a start?

BTW, I am not familiar with how ""Tags" so broadly apply to different functionality in different applications and websites" -- tags are almost exactly analogous to GMail "labels", Outlook "categories", and even the old fashioned concept of "keywords". It's even not far from categorizing file types via their file extension (e.g. ".cpp", ".txt", ".mp3", etc.). Tags are great because you can categorize across any organization hierarchy, which is incredibly useful in this age of large-scale collections of disparate data. If this sort of facility isn't a part of the normal user experience, it should be.

One thing: If Evernote wanted arbitrarily-nestable notebooks, then why did they introduce a new separate concept "Stack"? Why not have Notebooks behave like computer directories? The answer is, I think, that at the time, they didn't want that behavior. But now that they have stacks and notebooks, what would be the best way forward? Can a stack contain another stack? Can a notebook contain a stack? Can a notebook contain another notebook? What's most intuitive now that you already have a more complicated conceptual vocabulary?

  • Like 2

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I have grown to be a huge fan of Evernote over the last several months but I agree with the OP and many others that this feature is needed. I dont use tags for organizational purposes, I use them for relational purposes. I'd like to see the nesting of notbooks added so I can orgainze my notes as I see fit. I agree that using tags is a nice workaround, but it is just that, a workaround. Evernote, please add this feature, its the only thing keeping Evernote from being perfect to me.

Those of you who think tags are a better solution:

I'd ask you what hurt it would be to have the additional flexability to have nested notebooks (more than one level deep). You would presumably still be able to use tags if you prefer, so why not support this additional flexability for those of us who prefer to organize differently than you?

Thanks,

Marshall

I couldn't agree more with everything you've said here. I too LOVE Evernote. Seriously, you all are doing great work here. Everything about this software is superior to and offers more than other note-taking apps - except for it's organizational aspects.

(Speaking to the folks at Evernote now):

While tags are useful, and some may find them better than the traditional nested notebook/folder method of organization, just read this thread and you'll find that many came into Evernote wanting the ability to nest and subnest their notebooks, but were forced to learn Tags. Every other set of documents, data, etc that I deal with are organized through the nesting of folders etc, and I don't want to have to learn a whole new paradigm just to use Evernote, which would mean completely going over all my many many notes from scratch. Is it really that big of a deal to add this functionality? I'd love to hear from a support person or, even better, a lead Evernote programmer, as to why this is evidently not even being considered. Would it break other functionality of the software? Would it make Tags less useful for those that desire this method?

To me this should be a no-brainer. If you want to keep all your customers happy, give them what they want. Don't try to force us to use a method that we aren't used to using and have no interest in learning. Many of us want subnested notebooks, and I'd love it if you'd re-consider your position and just add it.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Don't try to force us to use a method that we aren't used to using and have no interest in learning. Many of us want subnested notebooks, and I'd love it if you'd re-consider your position and just add it.

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Don't try to force us to use a method that we aren't used to using and have no interest in learning. Many of us want subnested notebooks, and I'd love it if you'd re-consider your position and just add it.

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

OK. Good point. Maybe my words were a bit harsh. My apologies.

My point is simply - why not include both functionalities, thereby making everyone happy with minimal effort required on their part? What's the harm in that?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Don't try to force us to use a method that we aren't used to using and have no interest in learning. Many of us want subnested notebooks, and I'd love it if you'd re-consider your position and just add it.

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

OK. Good point. Maybe my words were a bit harsh. My apologies.

My point is simply - why not include both functionalities, thereby making everyone happy with minimal effort required on their part? What's the harm in that?

I can't speak to it but I'd guess it's a technical issue. EN lives on many platforms - that's their niche. That's what attracted many of us to EN to begin with. Personally, I've grown tired of migrating my notes from Sharp Wizard to Handspring to Palm. When I got my first iPhone is when I migrated from Palm to EN. I'm hoping I won't have to migrate from EN to anything else for a very long time, if ever. Seriously...how many apps live on all the platforms EN does? I suspect they may have restricted sub notebooks in order to make their app work well across all the platforms. This is all speculation. None of us who are only users can really say how easy a particular feature is to implement.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

It sure looks like the "experts" responding to these threads (or at least a couple of them) are refuting people posting and arguing against those posting, instead of giving info. Also, saying things like: it doesn't matter what a poster thinks??? Don't use it???

You (plural) sometimes give good info, but what's up with this?

How long ago did stacks come out? I don't think it was over a year or two ago, and It did not ship with the product originally, did it?

So, how can some people strongly state what Evernote is NOT going to do? Have a nice day!

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

@ever111: did you actually read what BnF wrote? Plenty of information there,by my interpretation.

It sure looks like the "experts" responding to these threads (or at least a couple of them) are refuting people posting and arguing against those posting, instead of giving info.

Really? Provide a quote, please.

Also, saying things like: it doesn't matter what a poster thinks??? Don't use it???

Please provide a quote for that assertion.

So, how can some people strongly state what Evernote is NOT going to do? Have a nice day!

Please provide a quote for that assertion.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

jefito,

Did you not read the posts?

Did the posts show bad attitude? Just sayin. In particular, some posts in the sync thread a day or so ago, but in this thread...

There are others, but I think these three answer all of your points. Take it or leave it was also included.

I see that you were even quoted in the last sentence below. Interesting quote from a previous rebuttal, I suppose.

*The statements below are quotes from other poster(s), and not my opinion/attitude at all.*

Funny b/c it really doesn't matter what "Those of you who think tags are a better solution" think. What matters is how Evernote functions.

-------------------------------

No one is forcing you to do anything. This is a software app. It does what it does. IME, we often have to adjust our thinking/workflows to adapt to software b/c no app is going to do everything that everyone wants. If it works for you then great. Otherwise, don't use it. (shrug)

-------------------------------

The way EN has functioned since it's introduction in early 2008 up to & including today is no sub/nested notebooks. It doesn't appear this will change any time soon. As for me, I find EN invaluable and prefer to spend my time using as it is (and really, I've yet to find a use care where tags don't function similarly to sub notebooks) rather than boycott/protest a feature that may or may not ever appear. If an app works for me, great. If not, I go find one that will. As Jefito says, that's why there's chocolate & vanilla.

And if you think sub notebooks are so invaluable, why would you possibly need to try to get those who are ok w/o subnotebooks to support your request?

*The statements above are quotes from other poster(s), and not my opinion/attitude at all.*

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

To the original poster and others,

Please repost your request/case for nested notebooks, so others can agree with it or not. Good Luck!

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...