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Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

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It's not an ordinary tree structure.

Please explain what is the problem with implementing more sub-levels.

Thanks a lot.

Cheers.

hi. welcome to the forums!

thanks for posting on this topic. personally, i use no hierarchies (no notebooks or tags), so it isn't a concern for me, but i know it is of great interest to many users. i don't know if evernote plans to add more hierarchical possibilities to notebooks.

in the current system, there are some workarounds (i actually prefer some of these to traditional folder hierarchies).

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It's not an ordinary tree structure.

Please explain what is the problem with implementing more sub-levels.

Thanks a lot.

Cheers.

You've been very rude to a moderator who was trying to help. You accuse him of being close minded while you are exhibiting that same flaw you accuse him of. As has been pointed out to you, there is already much discussion on the topic, if you simply use the search function of the board. It's doubtful with this attitude you will receive much more help.

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The attitude of many devs and moderators, wich is fanatism and close-minded, is much more negative than fighting it.

Here again, what is being close-minded :

[EDIT:] Content deleted by moderator. Please watch the language. http://discussion.ev...ore&module=help

The bolded sentence is very important.

Evernote proposes... notes, notebooks. So, the logic of development is : I open my eyes, I watch around how we usually make a Notes Manager, and I use the best ideas. What people need? They need to save their ideas, not only like traditionnal reminders, we have Stickies or PNotes for this. Ideas are complex. Some note managers have trees with unlimited levels, it's cool to store complex structures of notes. Not only mathematicians or physicians need it, but anybody who wants to store information and sort it in many categories, and store categories in other categories to be more logic.

Since the begining of ancient holly times, arborescences in computing are unlimited :

- Windows Explorer (folders, sub-folders, etc)

- Help Files (.chm)

- Even bulleted lists in text editors

Wtf did happen? What did happen is limitation of intelligence in certain people who usually work in softwares development. It's very current.

Until I have a real argument to explain the limitation of Evernote's tree feature, my explaination is the devs only think in 2 levels and want to create a tool FOR THEM.

Thanks for the links ! I'll see if I'm wrong.

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I've been using Evernote for a little while now - around 2 years seriously, and initially I was very uncomfortable because there were no folders and sub-folders in Evernote. It seemed impossible to adequately sort my information into categories and cases that could support a specific thesis. However as I got used to the tagging system I began to see many advantages in using tags, not folders - and as I develop my usage of Evernote I'm beginning to think that I have overtagged my notes anyway. The search syntax is so powerful (again, once you get used to it..) that filing and finding information doesn't really require any organisation on my part. I'm moving towards tagging notes only to show that they form part of an ongoing grouping that relates to a client, or an action.

As example I'll look at dozens of notes related to banking regulation; I'll find them through searches for obvious keywords, and probably discard 70% of what I find as being repetitions, background or just irrelevant static. The ones I'm going to quote from though, in an article, letter or report will be tagged with the name of that action so that if (when) I get any ensuing grief, I can check back with the source material easily and without repeating the search and discard part of the exercise.

Some of the really good notes now have several tags indicating that they've been in different forms of output at different times.

I don't say this style of working couldn't work in a hierarchical filing model, but it is possible to do quite complex things 'only' with tags.

Some visitors to the forum have insisted that post-it notes are essential if they are to use Evernote; others that a Mind Mapping layout is required. I don't suggest that Evernote disregard all such requests - the owners of the software have to make their own decision what development is physically and economically feasible within their own business plan. They'll likely be driven by sales take-up - when numbers of new customers start to dry up, they'll need to see what might restore their attraction; but currently with 20Million (ish) largely satisfied users, Evernote can afford to take the long view.

They have a reasonably smooth, well-liked product and lots of detail work to iron out the rough edges between different clients, not to mention the new ones that come online in the next few years. The existing customer base will get unhappy if the product slows down, or adds unwieldy bloat to the menus, so EN have to keep massaging their infrastructure to keep pace with demand.

For the forseeable future, Evernote will look pretty much like it does now - that's the "if it ain't broke" principle we all know and love - so if you really, REALLY require something else before you'll accept the product, it's not an unhelpful attitude to say "try elsewhere", it's just realistic.

There are apps out there that add in the post-it feature; there are MindMapping and dozens of other specialist tools (I use several myself) to add functionality to Evernote. It's a mistake to think that Evernote should be the singe piece of software that anyone requires - extra features will always be available; it's what your laptop / smartphone / pad is there for!

And of course if the next Better Mousetrap function is sadly lacking from Evernote, the Trunk and the Apps Markets, you always have the Evernote API from which you can develop your own...

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It's not an ordinary tree structure.

I'm not sure what it un-ordinary about it; it's a tree, correct? Similar to the directory (folder) structure in any desktop user's file system, right? Unless there's some cross-linking, or other search operations available in MyNotesKeeper, that's pretty basic (though admittedly you seem to have a fairly elaborate tree).

Please explain what is the problem with implementing more sub-levels.

Given that that's Evernote's choice not to implement nested notebooks, it would probably be better to try to focus on how to organize your data in Evernote.

Example: if you were to create a tag named the same as each folder/subfolder in your system, and apply them in that way, that might be a way to go, but you will lose the hierarchical organization (though if you have unique folder names, you can approximate it by building a tag tree that mirrors your folder structure). But maybe the hierarchy stuff isn't really that important, and you can do without it (that's my approach).

Another way might be to build a system of what, for better or worse, we can call "hierarchical tags", that is, tags that encode the hierarchy in their names. Lot of work to do that, but it has its benefits.

Or maybe you can decide that hierarchies and tags aren't needed at all, and just do content searches to find your stuff (I call this "going commando").

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Since the begining of ancient holly times, arborescences in computing are unlimited :

- Windows Explorer (folders, sub-folders, etc)

- Help Files (.chm)

- Even bulleted lists in text editors

Wtf did happen? What did happen is limitation of intelligence in certain people who usually work in softwares development. It's very current.

I'll tell you "Wtf" happened:

People realized that depth-first exploration of deeply nested tree structures is not efficient (though better search tools can help).

People also realized the hierarchies are not always the best way to organize objects that are multi-attributed.

The "limitation of intelligence" you posit is in people who can only think hierarchically (I'd phrase that more charitably, something more like a limitation of experience).

Trees give you one way to categorize objects; any object is in exactly one place in the tree. Tags afford the opportunity to create multiple independent organizational schemes; any object can have any tag

Until I have a real argument to explain the limitation of Evernote's tree feature, my explaination is the devs only think in 2 levels and want to create a tool FOR THEM.

I think that Evernote devs are clearly capable of thinking beyond the limitations of hierarchies in general. But you can believe what you want to believe.

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The attitude of many devs and moderators, wich is fanatism and close-minded, is much more negative than fighting it.

Here again, what is being close-minded :

[EDIT:] Content deleted by moderator. Please watch the language. http://discussion.ev...ore&module=help

The bolded sentence is very important.

Evernote proposes... notes, notebooks. So, the logic of development is : I open my eyes, I watch around how we usually make a Notes Manager, and I use the best ideas. What people need? They need to save their ideas, not only like traditionnal reminders, we have Stickies or PNotes for this. Ideas are complex. Some note managers have trees with unlimited levels, it's cool to store complex structures of notes. Not only mathematicians or physicians need it, but anybody who wants to store information and sort it in many categories, and store categories in other categories to be more logic.

Since the begining of ancient holly times, arborescences in computing are unlimited :

- Windows Explorer (folders, sub-folders, etc)

- Help Files (.chm)

- Even bulleted lists in text editors

Wtf did happen? What did happen is limitation of intelligence in certain people who usually work in softwares development. It's very current.

Until I have a real argument to explain the limitation of Evernote's tree feature, my explaination is the devs only think in 2 levels and want to create a tool FOR THEM.

Thanks for the links ! I'll see if I'm wrong.

i get it that you want hierarchical organization, and you don't see why evernote doesn't have more options available, but i think you know that the people who developed an app adopted by millions of people around the world probably have a fair bit of intelligence. they are, after all, the only corporation i know about that has a robot with lasers in charge. true story.

i think they have chosen a different model of organization than you are suggesting. that's all. people have suggested hierarchies since i started using evernote years ago, so they are aware of the concept. you can google around to find out more about why they do what they do. maybe it will change in the future, but at least for now, evernote is what it is.

it's always good to get suggestions for features (i think), but take a look at the links i posted and see if those don't appeal to you.

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...i think you know that the people who developed an app adopted by millions of people around the world

Evernote had 20 million users in December and close to hitting the 30 million users now.

They are adding 100,000 new users every day

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Or maybe you can decide that hierarchies and tags aren't needed at all, and just do content searches to find your stuff (I call this "going commando").

Good to know. Just in case you start talking, on this board, about going commando. :o

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However as I got used to the tagging system I began to see many advantages in using tags, not folders

I don't see this as an advantage, but as a disadvantage :

- the list of tags can be... infinite !

- how having a full visibility of all the tags existing (to choose the good ones), when they are displayed in a bulk list?

- folders make possible to gather some similar concepts : without them, how do I sort my bulk list of thousands of tags?

Some visitors to the forum have insisted that post-it notes are essential if they are to use Evernote; others that a Mind Mapping layout is required.

Not me. I don't want to add a new feature. I just want the devs to "unblock" a feature. They created the possibility to create one sub-level, there is no valid neither logic explaination to limit this function during the development. They're just lazy to take 5 minutes, go on the source code and change 2 lines. I'm exaggerating guys, don't flame, it's just a "picture".

I don't suggest that Evernote disregard all such requests - the owners of the software have to make their own decision what development is physically and economically feasible within their own business plan.

Same argument seen in every project I criticized. We're not talking of something new, complex to implement : we're talking about something that exist in a limited form and wich DOES NOT requiere to change anything around.

The existing customer base will get unhappy if the product slows down, or adds unwieldy bloat to the menus, so EN have to keep massaging their infrastructure to keep pace with demand.

Same here.

For the forseeable future, Evernote will look pretty much like it does now - that's the "if it ain't broke" principle we all know and love - so if you really, REALLY require something else before you'll accept the product, it's not an unhelpful attitude to say "try elsewhere", it's just realistic.

It is unhelpfull since there is no other note manager with such quality and features, moreover using a cloud conception.

And it is NOT realistic to say "try elsewhere", just for a miserable tiny improvment of a yet existing feature !

There are apps out there that add in the post-it feature; there are MindMapping and dozens of other specialist tools (I use several myself) to add functionality to Evernote.

I have X-mind for drawing diagrams. I'm not talking about adding a feature like that.

(I need to separate my answer in several posts)

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It's a mistake to think that Evernote should be the singe piece of software that anyone requires - extra features will always be available; it's what your laptop / smartphone / pad is there for.

I understand your point of view, but I don't have enough money to have iPhones, iPad etc. Moreover I don't like the idea to switch from a device to another for the same activity, just because people don't want to gather them on the same software. We should do Notemanagers / Stickies / Driagrams both on computers, smartphone and tablets, and let the people chose what they want to use instead of forcing them.

I'll tell you "Wtf" happened:

People realized that depth-first exploration of deeply nested tree structures is not efficient (though better search tools can help).

Correction : "is not enough efficient, and need to have a complementary feature".

People also realized the hierarchies are not always the best way to organize objects that are multi-attributed.

Not the best way don't mean to replace it with an other. You'll understand what I mean just below.

The "limitation of intelligence" you posit is in people who can only think hierarchically (I'd phrase that more charitably, something more like a limitation of experience).

Wrong. I don't think only hierarchically, people think only with tags.

I know what you're talking about : building a tree is an imperfect solution. Because anybody can came and say "I'd prefer to sort it like... this!"

It's a matter of relationship between concepts : thoughts have no begining, and no end.

In real life (not in mathematics, in our brains), to prove/explain something, an argumentation can start anywhere, pass throught a certain path, and reach a conclusion. And you can prove the same thing by using not exactly the same path, or even by trying a complete different path !

BUT... (the next is below) :)

Trees give you one way to categorize objects; any object is in exactly one place in the tree. Tags afford the opportunity to create multiple independent organizational schemes; any object can have any tag

When I start this post to answer to gazumped, I talked about the way to display the tag list. I explained that anyway, we go back to the problem of gathering things. So, now I'll give you the solution : use a hierarchical display of categories that can be used as tags !

Then, you can "dupplicate" instantly files and give them an infinite localisation ! By deploying the tree and editing a note, the note is edited for each of its occurences ! Under Windows, it's called a hard-link : http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Hard_link

When I said this exist since the holly ancient times, I was not kidding, and when I say limitation of intelligence is a common problem of devs' world, I was meaning it.

I think Evernote devs are humans, and they make mystakes. And I don't think hierarchical or tag organization was a central discussion during the development. Tags are born few years ago, in people's heads directly from the experience of Search Engines wich were the fastest way to proceed about listing the web.

What Search Engines "inspire" us, is to find stuffs by entering words. It's not like the entiere web was sorted by humans in categories. We could have done this way, but it was too much work, and the way we discovered/build the internet induced us in one mentality.

So naturally, devs finished the work by inventing tags, and everybody, included Evernote's devs, just mechanically used this conception without questioning it.

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My opinion now, is the following.

When I discovered the web, I instantly had all this thoughts coming to my mind :

  • Information is drowned under a sea of useless information for me at the moment.
  • Indeed I need to read an entiere page before finding it, and often I don't find it and I go back into the search result to try something else.
  • It take time for me to find information : many results displayed in the search engine.
  • When I find it, information is partial/fragmented.
  • I need to search again : so, in fact, information is dupplicated everywhere.

So, I asked myself : why not sort websites and even gather information into a tree?

I discovered Internet directories, like http://www.dmoz.fr/

I say to myself "yeah, cool", but very quickly I was disappointed :

  • Categories are not very relevant.
  • Ergonomy don't seems to not be an important part of devs mentality (yeah again), and they don't see the link between such projects and the very important need of ergonomy.
  • This kind of project are not very provided, and quite deserted.

I asked myself : but... why? Why people don't understand the interest of such philosophy?

It's not about sorting ALL the internet and forsaking search engines, but about trying our best to give a human alternative and sorting manually information.

Why? Because of this :

  • It's always better to have a full vision for trivial question like, for example : what are the actual website giving information about... let's say, politic? Or ecology?
  • I can give you ideas : by seing the entiere "tree" or a branch, you can explore what you never had the idea to explore.
  • So you can increase and stimulate your knowledge.
  • And even solve some of your problem, because discovering mysterious things can be usefull for something else you did not solve in the past and forget...
  • etc.

And after a couple of years, I saw the birth of tags in websites, and social networks (with bulk and anti-ergonomic display of information) and news-podcasting like Twitter (idk if it's the exact english term to define this kind of application). And I laughed. I said to myself : lol, always the more irrationnal way to do things.

Not that I don't like the ideas : but they are always fragmented, limited and filled by a prehistorical way of thinking.

Dematerialization give us bad ideas, wrong approaches : it give us the believe that using a non-linear way to think is the best way.

And unfortunatly, it is not the best way. It's just a way.

Recently, by reading an article in Philosophy Magazine (a french magazine), about financial markets and trading, I find that a psychologist, named Kahneman, explained the functioning of humans in a familiar way compared to my own experience of society and interacting with people : for him, there is two systems.

  • The System 1 is under automatic pilot : it generate a flow of thoughts, by association of ideas, by intuition, without control neither efforts. This flow is often together with emotions.
  • The System 2 (the one I personnaly think I'm in) is the one of rational reasoning. It's slow, meticulous, analytic, and it has a cost : thinking in a rational way takes efforts and concentration, and no one is capable of using it permanently.
  • The System 1 often takes over the System 2, even with people who are trained to mathematics etc.

I think I don't have to explain you the conclusion. :)

Since the begining of this thread, we're talking and talking... just for adding more sub-levels, and it seems to be a problem for you and the devs, because it does not match with your paradigm. An unsignificant.... miserable... tiny modification is discussed... just because you can't understand the whole picture !

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Hi Romarain. I appreciate that you are passionate about your position, but I wonder if people (including the developers) understand what you are saying, have put thought into the product they have devoted their careers to, and reached a different conclusion.

In other words, rather than saying everyone who disagrees with you is wrong because they suffer from some kind of deficiency (humans, lazy, whatever), you may want to consider the possibility that they just don't agree with you.

Regarding your point about how easy this is, in my experience, even small changes with a program can cause havoc. And, I only program on a single platform. Evernote has to match everything across eight major platforms, and they have millions of people depending on them to do it well. So, I think as users we certainly ought to suggest things (it is great that you are), but we also ought to show some respect to the developers for the hard work they have done, and refrain from ridiculing them. There are people at the other end of your post.

Besides, they might be a little more amenable to your suggestions if you rhetorically hug them instead of kick them :)

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According to the fact I've been kicked all my life by people and socially excluded, I find the accusation funny.

I never kick people, I never sulk them (only if they exclude something, by denying it with no explaination wich is for me a defeat by forfeit), I certainly never exclude them, I never close threads (very common reaction on the web, I'm surprise this discussion isn't already locked).

Firstable, I don't think devs have reached a different conclusion. They create 2 levels of nested notebooks. Why not only 1, if tag is the final solution?

Where is the proof of that conclusion?

Secondly, yes, I think people are often wrong (not always, of course), because they use the System 1 wich is base on irrational conceptions, emotion and force relationship.

Moreover, even people are not wrong, they never see the 2nd solution that is implicated in the complete reality of the phenomenon. They only see half of the solution, their solution, and don't listen to others' point of view, or pretends to, but never apply, because they refuse to see the reality as a paradoxical object.

Thus, developers are reluctant to add a simple checkboxe in option panels, to add a feature, even the tiniest, if they don't see the utility in their own way of using their product.

Finally, I need to clarify something :

  • Everybody in the world, I mean e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y, we've all experienced at least one some good discussions, with a friend or anybody else, where we admit we are wrong somewhere, or that our argumentation lacks from something and has weakness on some parts.
  • So I've experience this. Yes, I confirm. So your accusation is not only impossible, but also really emblematic of the mentality you are in.
  • The actual mentality I'm talking about is as follows : you [all defenders] don't agree with me, I don't agree with your disagreement wich is irrational, I explain why, I explain the 2 kinds of intelligence/paradigm for you to get the picture in mind, and finally you use it to exclude my proposition, when I never wanted to excluded the use of tags, wich is, wheter you like it or not, an irrationnal method (that's what makes you mad). We're not even in a traditionnal opposition of paradigm, where only one must survive : we're in a dual and paradoxical paradigm, and nobody has to be excluded (nb : very funny/exciting about brain, thoughts and quantum physic, isn't it?). But nothing works in front of your state of mind.
  • System 1 always take over System 2. You confirm the conclusion of Kahneman.
  • Q.E.D

I understand your point of view about respect, GrumpyMonkey, and you're right about it. But what you perhaps don't understand, is the effect of being often if not always faced with this kind of situation and absurdity. If I was always fully "respectfull", my contributions on internet will always proceed like :

  • I propose something.
  • It is rejected : "thanks, but no, everything is perfect, thanks!" (respect has nothing to do with this).
  • I say goodbye and the communication is over very quickly.

Finally, I would never start a discussion, and progressively lose interest in proposing suggestions, because it would not have the tiniest interest.

I remind you we're talking because of a simple sub-level feature, already implemented !

I won't insist, it would be in bad taste and I've yet exceeded the limits of your patience, to all of you, I'm fully conscient of this.

But it breaks my heart to drop a soft like this, just because of a stuff like "one or two more sub-levels on a left panel".

So pathetic and representative of our world : we always see the millions of followers, without seing the millions ones who would follow if an absurdity was not driving them away.

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Thanks, but no. My mentality is the current Evernote system works fine.

Stacks - meh.

Notebook and tags plus a strong search are fine with me.

I don't have any desire to spend a lot of additional time climbing a new learning curve, even it is better.

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  • It is rejected : "thanks, but no, everything is perfect, thanks!" (respect has nothing to do with this)

Thanks, but no[...]

:) epic. Are you trying to do an inception on me?

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According to the fact I've been kicked all my life by people and socially excluded, I find the accusation funny.

I never kick people, I never sulk them (only if they exclude something, by denying it with no explaination wich is for me a defeat by forfeit), I certainly never exclude them, I never close threads (very common reaction on the web, I'm surprise this discussion isn't already locked).

Firstable, I don't think devs have reached a different conclusion. They create 2 levels of nested notebooks. Why not only 1, if tag is the final solution?

Where is the proof of that conclusion?

Secondly, yes, I think people are often wrong (not always, of course), because they use the System 1 wich is base on irrational conceptions, emotion and force relationship.

Moreover, even people are not wrong, they never see the 2nd solution that is implicated in the complete reality of the phenomenon. They only see half of the solution, their solution, and don't listen to others' point of view, or pretends to, but never apply, because they refuse to see the reality as a paradoxical object.

Thus, developers are reluctant to add a simple checkboxe in option panels, to add a feature, even the tiniest, if they don't see the utility in their own way of using their product.

Finally, I need to clarify something :

  • Everybody in the world, I mean e-v-e-r-y-b-o-d-y, we've all experienced at least one some good discussions, with a friend or anybody else, where we admit we are wrong somewhere, or that our argumentation lacks from something and has weakness on some parts.
  • So I've experience this. Yes, I confirm. So your accusation is not only impossible, but also really emblematic of the mentality you are in.
  • The actual mentality I'm talking about is as follows : you [all defenders] don't agree with me, I don't agree with your disagreement wich is irrational, I explain why, I explain the 2 kinds of intelligence/paradigm for you to get the picture in mind, and finally you use it to exclude my proposition, when I never wanted to excluded the use of tags, wich is, wheter you like it or not, an irrationnal method (that's what makes you mad). We're not even in a traditionnal opposition of paradigm, where only one must survive : we're in a dual and paradoxical paradigm, and nobody has to be excluded (nb : very funny/exciting about brain, thoughts and quantum physic, isn't it?). But nothing works in front of your state of mind.
  • System 1 always take over System 2. You confirm the conclusion of Kahneman.
  • Q.E.D

I understand your point of view about respect, GrumpyMonkey, and you're right about it. But what you perhaps don't understand, is the effect of being often if not always faced with this kind of situation and absurdity. If I was always fully "respectfull", my contributions on internet will always proceed like :

  • I propose something.
  • It is rejected : "thanks, but no, everything is perfect, thanks!" (respect has nothing to do with this).
  • I say goodbye and the communication is over very quickly.

Finally, I would never start a discussion, and progressively lose interest in proposing suggestions, because it would not have the tiniest interest.

I remind you we're talking because of a simple sub-level feature, already implemented !

I won't insist, it would be in bad taste and I've yet exceeded the limits of your patience, to all of you, I'm fully conscient of this.

But it breaks my heart to drop a soft like this, just because of a stuff like "one or two more sub-levels on a left panel".

So pathetic and representative of our world : we always see the millions of followers, without seing the millions ones who would follow if an absurdity was not driving them away.

It sounds like experience has taught you different lessons than it has taught me. It is certainly your prerogative to persist in the belief that 1) developers don't listen or just pretend to if they don't agree with you, 2) showing respect to others is less effective than ridiculing them, and 3) I am mad/angry about your posts. I think I will have to disagree with you about all three!

I am not sure you will find much debate here about your points. I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your main point by saying that there is something wrong with adding more sub-levels to the notebooks. Rather, I think I hear them saying they are fine with the current system.

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Since the begining of this thread, we're talking and talking... just for adding more sub-levels, and it seems to be a problem for you and the devs, because it does not match with your paradigm. An unsignificant.... miserable... tiny modification is discussed... just because you can't understand the whole picture !

I'm sorry. For awhile, I thought that part of the problem in this thread was the language difference; obviously English is not your first language, and I give you credit for using it.

However, I have since come to believe that you really, really believe that Evernote and its users are too stupid to understand your oh-so wonderful ideas, even though your notion that they are somehow easy to implement (two lines of code? seriously?) is preposterous. Sorry, but there's too much heat here, and not enough light, so I'm checking myself out of the thread. Good luck with your quest for.. well, I'm not really sure what your quest is, but good luck anyways.

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I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your main point by saying that there is something wrong with adding more sub-levels to the notebooks. Rather, I think I hear them saying they are fine with the current system.

What do you mean?

People say "I think there is something wrong with adding more levels" and you conclude that it's not a disagreement?

Or that no one said that there is something wrong so no one is disagreeing?

You used a paradoxical form of syntax, do you see it? ^_^ We can interpret the meaning in both ways (the word "by" is ambiguous).

I'll just comment the end : if 3 millions or even 3 billions of people are fine with a system, it does not mean for me that this system is valid or better than an other.

even though your notion that they are somehow easy to implement (two lines of code? seriously?)

No, that's why I said it was just a picture. Can we see a dev here?

How can we submit an idea and see them admiting/rejecting it?

Sorry, but there's too much heat here, and not enough light, so I'm checking myself out of the thread. Good luck with your quest for.. well, I'm not really sure what your quest is, but good luck anyways.

Thanks jefito, for your patience even in my darkest moment.

There is not enough light because, IMO, the approach of hierarchical tree VS tags implicate a real complex questioning about our way of thinking. It's about brain, it's about thought, it's about cognition, semantic, etc.

My conviction is human are uncomfortable with thinking/calculating and always prefer the easiest way. Our time is proving it, by deploying much more technology based on an irrational structure than a rational one. Everybody adulate Search Engines, Tags, etc, and people have a serious problem with the "traditionnal method" of building theories, models, hierarchical, pathes.

But for me, the only method wich belongs to human is unfortunatly the rational one : we can't cheat, we can't run away from it, it always came back. That's why I ask you to bring here some screenshots of your tag lists, and why I pointed the fact that => imo this list as to be, soon or later, displayed in an ergonomic way !

You can't avoid it ! You can't watch your tag list like you watch a thousand words written on little pieces of paper, chaotically scattered on your desktop, and select them (for a search function or to attribute them to a note) in a mysterious way you don't want to know neither modelize => The modelizing, the gathering, is called a rational model : concepts are gathered BECAUSE of the meaning, of the PATH you CREATE.

So I'm not ok with what is explained here : http://discussion.ev...nested-folders/

You don't have to physically dupplicate the notes, as BurgersNFries said ; no, you can virtually dupplicate it !

Just keep in mind :

  • 2 Systems : rational VS irrational, tree VS tags
  • Paradoxical where the 2 systems are complementary.
  • It has been realized before : it's called Hard links.
  • Moreover we're talking about a little improvment of a yet existing feature.

Now, here is how I see it :

  • We can merge the tree and the tag : categories of the tree ARE the tags !
  • When you create a cat/tag in a branch, if it already exists in an other branch => it is connected.
  • Ticking a checkbox near a cat/tag, or typing his name on the search function will display only these sub-folders, in their respective branches.
  • When you add a note in such a cat/tag/sub-folder, if there is many occurences of the tag, it ask you if you want to connect the note with the other tags (you can select eah one).
  • Extra : We could have several sets of tree, to display the tree in different orders of sorting, depending on different path we create in our mind.

I know what you're thinking : "he does not understand that tags actually avoid this kind of autistic conception and laborious work".

Well, what you perhaps don't understand is the interest of doing it I guess. -_- Hard link model is something much more intelligent and complete. Seriously, can you give me a screenshot of your tag list ! ^_^

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Seriously, can you give me a screenshot of your tag list ! ^_^

Seriously, I don't think anyone wants to play your game anymore.

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I don't think anyone is disagreeing with your main point by saying that there is something wrong with adding more sub-levels to the notebooks. Rather, I think I hear them saying they are fine with the current system.

What do you mean?

People say "I think there is something wrong with adding more levels" and you conclude that it's not a disagreement?

Or that no one said that there is something wrong so no one is disagreeing?

You used a paradoxical form of syntax, do you see it? ^_^ We can interpret the meaning in both ways (the word "by" is ambiguous).

I'll just comment the end : if 3 millions or even 3 billions of people are fine with a system, it does not mean for me that this system is valid or better than an other.

even though your notion that they are somehow easy to implement (two lines of code? seriously?)

No, that's why I said it was just a picture. Can we see a dev here?

How can we submit an idea and see them admiting/rejecting it?

Sorry, but there's too much heat here, and not enough light, so I'm checking myself out of the thread. Good luck with your quest for.. well, I'm not really sure what your quest is, but good luck anyways.

Thanks jefito, for your patience even in my darkest moment.

There is not enough light because, IMO, the approach of hierarchical tree VS tags implicate a real complex questioning about our way of thinking. It's about brain, it's about thought, it's about cognition, semantic, etc.

My conviction is human are uncomfortable with thinking/calculating and always prefer the easiest way. Our time is proving it, by deploying much more technology based on an irrational structure than a rational one. Everybody adulate Search Engines, Tags, etc, and people have a serious problem with the "traditionnal method" of building theories, models, hierarchical, pathes.

But for me, the only method wich belongs to human is unfortunatly the rational one : we can't cheat, we can't run away from it, it always came back. That's why I ask you to bring here some screenshots of your tag lists, and why I pointed the fact that => imo this list as to be, soon or later, displayed in an ergonomic way !

You can't avoid it ! You can't watch your tag list like you watch a thousand words written on little pieces of paper, chaotically scattered on your desktop, and select them (for a search function or to attribute them to a note) in a mysterious way you don't want to know neither modelize => The modelizing, the gathering, is called a rational model : concepts are gathered BECAUSE of the meaning, of the PATH you CREATE.

So I'm not ok with what is explained here : http://discussion.ev...nested-folders/

You don't have to physically dupplicate the notes, as BurgersNFries said ; no, you can virtually dupplicate it !

Just keep in mind :

  • 2 Systems : rational VS irrational, tree VS tags
  • Paradoxical where the 2 systems are complementary.
  • It has been realized before : it's called Hard links.
  • Moreover we're talking about a little improvment of a yet existing feature.

Now, here is how I see it :

  • We can merge the tree and the tag : categories of the tree ARE the tags !
  • When you create a cat/tag in a branch, if it already exists in an other branch => it is connected.
  • Ticking a checkbox near a cat/tag, or typing his name on the search function will display only these sub-folders, in their respective branches.
  • When you add a note in such a cat/tag/sub-folder, if there is many occurences of the tag, it ask you if you want to connect the note with the other tags (you can select eah one).
  • Extra : We could have several sets of tree, to display the tree in different orders of sorting, depending on different path we create in our mind.

I know what you're thinking : "he does not understand that tags actually avoid this kind of autistic conception and laborious work".

Well, what you perhaps don't understand is the interest of doing it I guess. -_- Hard link model is something much more intelligent and complete. Seriously, can you give me a screenshot of your tag list ! ^_^

i don't see the paradox in what i said. i guess i just don't get it. sorry. about all i can add is to say that sure, it would be nice to have more sub-levels (for people who organize using notebooks). but, we don't have them. and, i am not even sure you need them. i appreciate your requesting it, and i see that it is very important to you, but it isn't a feature that i am terribly enthusiastic about myself.

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I am in real estate and I want to start a stack that is called sales and within that stack I want to have all my properties listed and then within that I want to have various clients on those properties - so files within files. I can seem to put one notebook within a notebook but no more. What am I doing wrong?

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I can seem to put one notebook within a notebook but no more. What am I doing wrong?

You're not doing anything wrong. Stacks can only be one level deep. If you need more than that, you might try tags. They're not identical, and they don't replicate the folder structure so many users are used to from their OSes, but they're far more flexible in Evernote. I highly recommend organizing with tags over notebooks or stacked notebooks. Here's just one conversation on the matter that you may find helpful:

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Ah, right -- misread that a bit, and was thinking that the OP was having problems putting more than one notebook into a stack, rather than trying to nest notebooks. Peter is correct: Stacks can only contain notebooks, and not notebooks (or notes). Notebooks can only contain notes, and not notebooks or stacks. And notes can contain any content, but not notebooks or stacks. Thanks, Peter.

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What I do is run two stacks

Real Estate

and

Z-Closed

In the Real Estate I will have notebooks such as

B-Smith

B-Thompson

S-Harris

S-Jones

S-Nichols

The Buyers all get the B prefix and the Sellers all get the S to keep them grouped and in order.

THen when they close I move them from the Real Estate to the Z-Closed stack

Dean Ouellette

Evernote for Realtors

DeanOuellette.com

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Hi all.

Are we going to get a definitive answer from Evernote to this question?

I need to know because I'm at the point of making a decision to stick with EN or resume my search for a better tool.

ALL my data (on other devices) is organized in a hierarchical way. I easily find my documents (notes or whatever) by going to their logical location (Building B/Apt. 3/Outstanding problems/Leaking shower head).

I can't afford the time to multiple tag every note (scan, snapshot, etc) that I create.

(I suspect that for some technical reason, probably a design decision that was made by the architect of EN way back when, it's now impossible to implement a nested notebook structure that is more than one level deep...)

I would really appreciate it if EN came out openly and stated clearly what their intentions are regarding this often-requested feature!

Thanks.

P.S. For what it's worth, here are two of the other products I'm currently looking at (in parallel with EN): NoteBook (by Circus Ponies Software) and Curio (by Zengobi).

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Other than flat out bug fixes I've never seen EN indicate the enabling of any upcoming features.its their policy not to do that. And....based on all the discussion I've seen on thai topic I'd say its highly unlikely we'll ever see that.

I've really learned to use note links and clusters of notes fairly well to serve that purpose.

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Are we going to get a definitive answer from Evernote to this question?

I need to know because I'm at the point of making a decision to stick with EN or resume my search for a better tool.

No, you will not get a "definitive answer" from Evernote.

Evernote does not publish a roadmap of planned features.

And with the flexibility of tags, OCR and search, it is unlikely they will offer more levels of Notebooks.

.

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Having multiple levels of notebooks seems contrary to Evernote's ethos and has been discussed many many times on here. I think it is extremely unlikely that it will ever be implemented.

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Initially I wanted to Create a New Evernote account. I already have one that I purchased Premium Services for. If I create a new account is there a way to have the two accounts covered by the one premium service or that is not allowed?

If so then what I would like to do is take all my current notebooks and make them sub-notebooks to a newly created parent notebook. Is this possible and if so how. Once I have done this I will create a new notebook for Work purposes. I do not want to combine the two. if i do this then it will fall uner the account that has the premium applied against it.

As mentioned my initial thought was to create new account. I just did not want to buy another premium subscription for the new account.

Thanks and I look forward to your reply.

...Bruce

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AFAIK, you cannot combine multiple accounts for a single premium account.

EN does not have sub notebooks. There are notebooks & stacks. I'm sure if you perused the existing messages on the board and/or played with EN some more, you will get a better understanding of how EN works. Probably also helpful to search the board on tags vs notebooks.

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Initially I wanted to Create a New Evernote account. I already have one that I purchased Premium Services for. If I create a new account is there a way to have the two accounts covered by the one premium service or that is not allowed?

If so then what I would like to do is take all my current notebooks and make them sub-notebooks to a newly created parent notebook. Is this possible and if so how. Once I have done this I will create a new notebook for Work purposes. I do not want to combine the two. if i do this then it will fall uner the account that has the premium applied against it.

As mentioned my initial thought was to create new account. I just did not want to buy another premium subscription for the new account.

Thanks and I look forward to your reply.

...Bruce

Hi. Welcome to the forums!

As BNF said, you purchase a premium account, and the subscription only applies to it. You can make sub-notebooks (called "stacks") by dragging the notebooks into another one (if I remember correctly) for the Mac and Windows clients. Could you tell us why a "professional" and "personal" notebook would not be enough, and you want to have two accounts instead? Of course, you could create two accounts, but I wouldn't recommend it, because there are very few benefits to doing a hemispherectomy on your external brain!

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The reason i am pursuing this is because I just received a ScanSnap. I want to go to a paperless office. So I was thinking a new account would allow me to keep it separate from my other account. But seeing as this is not an option I wanted to consolidate my current notebooks under one parent notebook. That way I can collapse it to clean up interface. And then I would create another parent for which I would begin another 'stack' for my paperless office. Am I on the right track here? Just need some confirmation or if you have a better solution I would appreciative to hear it.

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Yup, have two stacks with appropriate notebooks.

Let the default notebook catch all your ScanSnaps and then move to appropriate notebook.

Notebooks can be moved and renamed. My default notebook is Actions-Pending.

Try to keep the number of notebooks to a minimum.

example:

Work

Clients

Expenses

Projects

Home

Bills

Family

Friends

Hobbies

Maintenance

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Good luck. If you also use an iPad or Mobile device with Evernote, you might want to consider eventually renaming the notebooks for easier identification and less confusion.

example:

Work

Wk-Clients

Wk-Expenses

Wk-Projects

Home

Hm-Bills

Hm-Family

Hm-Friends

Hm-Hobbies

Hm-Maintenance

.

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The title is self explanatory, but to reiterate. It would be useful if you could stack 'notebook stacks' into "notebook stacks", (much like a file folder system) then for people like me who are soon chalking up 1000's of notes for one particular topic it would become well used.

I understand that tagging allows as many 'tag' subcategories as necessary, and this is a great idea except it lacks the feature of you being able to have the simple function of "Create notebook in <tag>" which would essentially bypass the need to use the notebook stack system. I don't use tags simply for the reason it's another task tacked onto the notebook stack system, I must use that system and then --if I remember-- tag it later.

Which is another feature request that I posted in another thread.

Thanks

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Hi Samnnz,

This is a much debated topic here in the forums. Currently Evernote only allows one level of stacks, and this appears to be the decision made by Evernote. As far as I am aware, this is not likely to change in the near future.

I understand that there are advantages to this, but that is the choice that EN have made for now.

One possible reason behind this decision (that I have just realised myself) may be related to the notebook limit.

Currently you can have up to 250 notebooks (including each stack) and so if you were allowed multiple levels of notebooks, you could reach this limit very easily with a moderately complicated folder structure...

Scott

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We need to be able to nest our notebooks - a tree like structure on both the windows and web version

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Hello. Welcome to the forums!

This is an oft-requested feature. We can currently nest one level (stacks). I don't know if Evernote plans to offer more.

If you search the forums, you'll find lots of discussion about tags. These could offer a workaround for you, and you might find (like I did) that they are far better than nested notebooks :)

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I agree with Grumpy Monkey. When I first came to Evernote I was sure I needed nested notebooks with many levels. I have learned that I was wrong about this. Tags can be even more useful because I can some tags that run through multiple notebooks.

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Candid's point about tags running through multiple notebooks is important.

I should say that Brett Kelly's book and the posts on this forum by longtime members helped me in the transition. Now, I have a system that doesn't rely on notebooks and tags. It is a bit unconventional, but it works for me.

http://www.princeton.edu/~cmayo/evernote-organization.html

However, I think for most people, a mix of tags and notebooks will be the best solution.

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It's doubtful EN will implement nested notebooks any time soon, if ever. As GM & Candid pointed out, you should learn to use tags. There are already plenty of threads on the board on the topic. Please use the search function. IMO, tags are much better than nested notebooks, especially when you have very many notes.

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Scott's right -- tags are it, for now and the foreseeable future. There is no function "Create notebook in tag" because tags are only applied to notes, and not notebooks (or stacks); not sure what the use case for this would be. If you feel that tags are too much to handle in addition to notebooks and stacks, I'd suggest that you consider using fewer notebooks and use tags to do your main organizing. There are any number of people who use mainly tags to organize their 1000s of notes.

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Yep, nested tags are the way to go

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It's kind of aragant if Evernote ignores users. This is the way I think. May not be ideal way, or same way, but hard to change. Perhaps this can be accommodated wi tags? Other creative approaches. Getting philosophical about user experience will kill the product. A good designer can accommodate.

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EN does not ignore users, quite the contrary. This forum is an active community and EN employees read what is posted here. Many design features were proposed here first and got implemented.

It is impossible to accommodate all wishes of all users. EN has to make some basic design decisions which suit the average user well.

Multiple levels of notebooks does not seem to be one of those.

Wern

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Having multiple levels of notebooks seems contrary to Evernote's ethos and has been discussed many many times on here. I think it is extremely unlikely that it will ever be implemented.

My point is that if it has been discussed "many many times" (and it has been for YEARS.) then I would challenge the assumption that it does not "suit the average user well." Obviously, it is an important issue. It is the basis of Onenote and all traditional outlining tools. I learned outlining in school and have been doing it for years. Tags are relatively new. The idea of seeing your actual content in a hiachrchy, rather than meta-information (ie. tags) is not intuitive for a lot of people (perhaps there is a generational bias here.) I see three approach

1. ignore / dismiss them and have them adapt

2. create features to map to their mental model, at the risk of compromising design principle

3. Acknowledge the dissidence the product creates, and look for CREATIVE ways to address this that do not compromise design principals.

What I keep hearing is that this philosophical issue is getting a #1 response (read YOUR own response -- its right there!) , but I am confident that bright people could deliver #3. I think a simple, additional view, might solve this, but if we can't get past #1, then #3 will NEVER happen.

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Very senior Evernote employees have made it very clear that adding levels of notebooks simply isn't going to happen so I guess it's number 1. Now it's up to you whether you want to play by Evernotes's rules or go use Onenote or something else.

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Ok - I haven't seen where they made it very clear. I'll reiterate then: "It's kind of arrogant if Evernote ignores users."

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Search the forum for Dave Engberg, I'm sure some of his posts came over from the old forum, Dave is the CTO.

Sticking to a design choice isn't arrogant, it's a choice.

There are many examples of Evernote listening to users, however, Evernote is a commercial organisation not a community built application so it makes choices for itself. You might not like all of them, but that's the way it is.

By the way, I like many prefer tags as an organisational system and I don't want them to waste time and money changing the data model, the service, the clients to introduce nested notebooks.

Kind for arrogant of you not to listen to users like me? :)

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I don't think you are hearing me. Sorry if I'm not being clear. I just found a "locked thread" on this: http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/25690-request-improve-the-tree-of-notebooks-and-stacks/page__st__20.

I've been a product manager for 15 years. I really understand these issues and definitely understand development costs. My point is that creative solutions CAN often be achieved when the problem is not looked at as positional (ie. Either A or B). A review of these threads (and your comments) keep indicating that it is an A or B choice and you have to take it or leave it, my way or the highway,etc. That is axiomatic of arrogance. I will search for Dave and perhaps direct my comments to him. Thanks for the reference.

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Wow - I've been trying to find his post, but must have come by 100 discussions on this topic. Can't see a listing of hist posts from profile. Seems like a lot of evangelists like yourself are trying to squash the issue.

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I'm not an evangelist and it's less a case of squashing the issue and more one of just pointing out what is known having been around here for a long time and read threads like this before.

Dave used to post a lot, but as the company grew that reduced and then ended before the forum migrated and so it may be difficult to find his posts.

With all your experience, I'm sure you can understand the major work that would have to be undertaken to implement nested notebooks.

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You may not be an official evangelist, but with over 3000 posts, you should be :).

I've seen development estimates of 10,000 Man hours slashed to less than 500 with some creative approaches to satisfying what the user really wants without major cost. In fact, i've seen this scale of change happen at least 10 times in my career. I think users want to see information in a hierarchy, not just the tags. That does not necessarily mean sub-notebooks as a data structure - it could mean a view that uses tags to display as a nested structure. There are many possibilities, but if the discussion becomes A vs. B / positional, dismissive and arrogant, then a creative solution will never be achieved. From my forum searching, there is a tremendous dissidence with some user base and that probably does not even represent the number of silent users. I'm hoping the team really tries to understand the user issue and spends some time to creatively address it.

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Tags are already displayed hierarchically.

If you have all this experience you will understand that a significant structural change comes at significant cost. Evernote is a service with 12 (14?) clients plus I don't know how many apps that use it's APIs, what you are describing is not just a simple UI improvement it is to all intensive purposes a complete re-design of the underlying data structure which would then require major updates to all clients, APIs and thiird party clients

I really suggest you spend a little more time with the product and understand how it works before you decide to become the voice of the silent displeased.

http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/14214-can-stacks-contain-stacks/

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Metrodon, do not post that picture again, I beg you. You know which one. :)

@shawnholt: it's not arrogant for Evernote to make choices about the software and services that they make and sell. Yes, it's true that some people who have tried Evernote want true hierarchies. But Evernote doesn't need to cater to every user's desires in order to be a success. Doesn't mean that they're not listening; it just means that they are choosing: every day in fact, the choices that they make are tantamount to making a bet that their software is good enough to be useful to enough people so that Evernote can continue to stay in business. You, the consumer, are faced with a choice of many different services; if you don't like Evernote, there are others competing for your dollars. Again, this is not arrogance, it's just a fact of business. In the meantime, tags are what are on offer, and they work fine for many users.

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@jefito: Of course software companies need to make difficult choices. Users are the WORST people to define features. they are great at helping product teams develop insights about users needs. Understanding users is critical to effective software development. Ignoring users is (perhaps there is a better word, but it resonates to me as ...) arrogance.

Products need to be built for markets which have segments of users. I'm making the observation that there is a LARGE segment of users who are used to working with content structured in outline form. This is very different than tags which are meta information, an abstraction that is not easy for many people to get. I have no idea what the answer is (subnotebooks, new views, etc.) but I'm certain there is a problem for a sizable market. I've reviewed several threads on this topic and my conclusion (hypotheses really) are:

1. There are a large number (perhaps 5% ???) of the existing evernote community that would prefer a different abstraction.

2. I think it is reasonable to presume there is a large number of people who have tried to use evernote but stopped becuase of this issue (perhaps 10% of the existing user base - note its the dominant abstraction in outlook, onenote, etc.)

3. The discussions I have seen are all incredibly polarized about the ANSWER - changing the architecture or philosophical. I've seen a LOT of real hostility around this issue, as if it is an either/ or A/B right or wrong solution.

4. Since none of the proposed solutions seem to work the issue is dismissed (no published roadmap so all speculation) and there has been NOTHING presented to address or even acknowledge the underlying problem. my conclusion is that there is an arrogance on the part of Evernote or perhaps it's just a forum filled with uninformed voices, because they are assuming that potentially 15% of their users should change their behavior.

5. I like to think of myself as a pragmatist. I really really want to be able to use this tool. I think there are others like me. Changing a users behavior is possible, but hard. I think there should be an open and inclusive discussion to see if this large group of users needs can be accommodated with modest effort and without disrupting the architecture or workflow of current users. Who knows, this might lead to a much larger market share.....

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More notebook hierarchies is a reasonable suggestion. I think it is great that people take time to offer their opinions. Evernote staff are listening. They comment in these threads. And, they have responded (here is one from the CTO http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/14214-can-stacks-contain-stacks/#entry68438). By definition, I think they cannot be said to be ignoring the request, and just because they disagree about the vision for how the app should be structured doesn't mean they are arrogant.

You never know. They may change their minds. It's worth a try! But, if they don't, I doubt accusing them of arrogance is going to help your case :)

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Seriously, you have a quick look through the forum and you come up with this 15% number?

This conversation just became ridiculous.

I'm looking for that picture now.

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Products need to be built for markets which have segments of users. I'm making the observation that there is a LARGE segment of users who are used to working with content structured in outline form.

Products do not "need" to be built for any and all markets that exist, just for some identifiable market segments. This is demonstrably true. There is a "LARGE" segment of users whose needs are met by the structure that Evernote provides today.

This is very different than tags which are meta information, an abstraction that is not easy for many people to get.

People don't understand adjectives? Really? Because that's all that tags are, when it comes right down to it. Maybe that's why both GMail and Outlook provide similar facilities (labels and categories, respectively). Though to be fair, both of those products also provide for nested structure as well.

I have no idea what the answer is (subnotebooks, new views, etc.) but I'm certain there is a problem for a sizable market. I've reviewed several threads on this topic and my conclusion (hypotheses really) are:

1. There are a large number (perhaps 5% ???) of the existing evernote community that would prefer a different abstraction.

2. I think it is reasonable to presume there is a large number of people who have tried to use evernote but stopped becuase of this issue (perhaps 10% of the existing user base - note its the dominant abstraction in outlook, onenote, etc.)

Sheer guesswork on your part ("I have no idea" is the telling quote). No real relevance to the discussion. BTW, I used Outlook for a lot of years, and found nested folder structures more trouble than they were worth -- by the time that I stumbled across Evernote, I had already settled on what is essentially a one-level deep folder structure in Outlook, using categories for sorting. Evernote just made sense

3. The discussions I have seen are all incredibly polarized about the ANSWER - changing the architecture or philosophical. I've seen a LOT of real hostility around this issue, as if it is an either/ or A/B right or wrong solution.

I think that the discussions are more generally along the lines of: "I need arbitrarily nested folders" (sometimes followed by "it's unbeliieeevable that Evernote doesn't have them; how could they have missed that?"). "OK, that's a fair request, but Evernote doesn't provide them and doesn't seemed particularly interested in providing them, so tell us what you are trying to do, and we'll try to see how we can make Evernote work for you". And if pressed, we can go 'round the barn (again) on why tags are generally more flexible than folders and how tags might be improved to make them have folder-like behaviors. As far as I am concerned, there is no 'ANSWER' required, except for "it works for me".

4. Since none of the proposed solutions seem to work the issue is dismissed (no published roadmap so all speculation) and there has been NOTHING presented to address or even acknowledge the underlying problem. my conclusion is that there is an arrogance on the part of Evernote or perhaps it's just a forum filled with uninformed voices, because they are assuming that potentially 15% of their users should change their behavior.

There is no real problem here, just a difference of opinion that Evernote needs to include a facility for arbitrarily nested folders, which I would call a perceived problem. It's is a design issue, really (what Evernote chooses to provide), not an issue of bugs (flaws in the execution of a design). They've talked about it some in the past; folders are not part of their public roadmap, plain and simple. You can call it arrogance if it pleases you to; I just think it's making a reasonable choice and sticking to it. Their results seem to be pretty good so far.

5. I like to think of myself as a pragmatist. I really really want to be able to use this tool. I think there are others like me. Changing a users behavior is possible, but hard. I think there should be an open and inclusive discussion to see if this large group of users needs can be accommodated with modest effort and without disrupting the architecture or workflow of current users. Who knows, this might lead to a much larger market share.....

This is akin to saying: I really want to be able to use this hammer to cut this tree down, i.e., not very pragmatic at all. The pragmatist in me says "hey, Evernote has tag things, maybe I don't really need folders to make Evernote be useful to me". Sounds like you don't actually want to use Evernote as it is, you want to use some Evernote-like tool doesn't exist, and may never be made by Evernote.

Obviously, you are welcome to discuss this stuff all you like -- it's a user forum, after all -- and you'll likely get some response that agrees with you, and even people who disagree with you but think that your asking the question is valid (like me), but you may not get Evernote folks too deeply into the discussion, if at all. I'm pretty sure that the notion of how folders might interact with tags in Evernote is not unfamiliar to them.

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@jefito: Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. After 5,000+ posts, you are obviously very passionate about Evernote. Unfortunately, the fact that you keep talking about nested folders leads me to believe that you don't really understand what I'm trying to convey. In fact, by referring to nested folders you are making my point. I'm talking about how many people are accustomed to outlining content - sure nested folders are one way to do it, but I'm trying to point out there is a gap in the product,. I believe it applies to a large group of people - which you can estimate at whatever size you want - but judging from the number of people raising the issue and the many product that use that framework I'm confident that it is a significant market.

While I applaud your zealous commitment to Evernote and your contributions to the forums, I'd encourage you to try and understand what i'm trying to convey before jumping all each premise with argumentative conjecture. It's not just you - I see a lot of this in the evernote forum, where "I'm right and your wrong." I'ts a shame because this energy could be spent trying to collaboratively solve problems. If your open to that sort of discussion, I'd welcome the dialog.

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It's not just you - I see a lot of this in the evernote forum, where "I'm right and your wrong." I'ts a shame because this energy could be spent trying to collaboratively solve problems. If your open to that sort of discussion, I'd welcome the dialog.

Actually, there is not a lot of "I'm right and [you're] wrong" around here - at least by most of the regulars. What is basically reiteration of what Evernote has stated in the past does seem to be taken by some (you?) that way, though. However, if you truly read the posts, you'll see we are not saying feature ___ is bad - just that EN is probably not going to incorporate it soon, if ever. And as has been stated countless times in this thread & others, it's doubtful EN will add nested notebooks (there are no folders in Evernote) anytime soon, if ever, it's best to just bite the bullet & learn to use tags instead of nested notebooks. It's doable. Really. And once you get a huge number of notes, you'll likely find tags much more flexible. However, if nested notebooks is a deal breaker for you, then EN is not the product for you.

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@shawnholt: It's up to you to start the discussion that you want to have (though participants may not always keep to a narrowly defined focus; witness this current thread, which indeed started out with a call for nested folders). Whether or not such discussion will actually solve any problems -- however collaboratively people join in -- is another matter altogether. Typically, user problems here tend to be lack of knowledge of how Evernote works, in general or with respect to a particular client -- that's what I prefer to the focus on here, regardless of how you think my energy ought to be spent. Meanwhile, you seem to persist in missing my point, and that of other commenters : it's not Evernote's responsibility to cater to every user's desires. It's a good trait for them to listen (they do) and engage (they do, though I'd prefer more), but ultimately it's their own business that lives or dies according to their choices.

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@jefito: Thanks for taking the time to respond so thoroughly. After 5,000+ posts, you are obviously very passionate about Evernote. Unfortunately, the fact that you keep talking about nested folders leads me to believe that you don't really understand what I'm trying to convey. In fact, by referring to nested folders you are making my point. I'm talking about how many people are accustomed to outlining content - sure nested folders are one way to do it, but I'm trying to point out there is a gap in the product,. I believe it applies to a large group of people - which you can estimate at whatever size you want - but judging from the number of people raising the issue and the many product that use that framework I'm confident that it is a significant market.

While I applaud your zealous commitment to Evernote and your contributions to the forums, I'd encourage you to try and understand what i'm trying to convey before jumping all each premise with argumentative conjecture. It's not just you - I see a lot of this in the evernote forum, where "I'm right and your wrong." I'ts a shame because this energy could be spent trying to collaboratively solve problems. If your open to that sort of discussion, I'd welcome the dialog.

I suppose it depends on where you look. If you read my post, I think you'll see that I didn't say you were "wrong" about notebook hierarchies (that is the topic of this thread), but I do think you are wrong in your accusations about Evernote. Perhaps we need to agree to disagree on this one.

As for a dialogue about entirely redesigning the app and presenting information in an outline form (however that is achieved), that sounds interesting to me, but may be beyond the scope of this particular thread (a more modest request for deeper hierarchies) and I think it may need to be fleshed out more so we have something specific to discuss. Feel free to start a thread on it!

Personally, I think it is unlikely that Evernote will go that direction (I have no idea what this would mean for third-party integrations, server loads, re-training of employees, or possible defection by current members who are satisfied with the current structure), but I guess that you never know.

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I have come across more than one instance where it would be beneficial to my organization of my evernote to be able to have nested notebook stacks. As an example, I've attended more than one college / university and i'd like to keep the notebooks for the two different colleges separate. Nested stacks would allow this to be possible since currently i have a notebook for each subject, but the classes for both schools are mixed together in a single "college" stack.

Thank you,

Kris

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Valid request (and not unique), but no signs that it's going to happen any time soon (not that Evernote gives out its feature roadmaps that often).

As it stands, your college notebooks are already separate (they're different notebooks already). You can search notebooks separately (using the notebook: scope modifier) or search an entire stack (using the stack: scope modifier). I'm not sure that I see the problem. You might also investigate using tags for distinguishing your college notes: you can use the same subjects, but use different tags for each college.

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Yeah, and wait until the 36 million existing Evernote users stumble over the review, decide that it matters to them, and switch to OneNote or whatever. Sure, so very simple.

As I said -- valid request, maybe they'll do it, maybe not, but there are certainly ways to do without, in many cases.

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Need a hierarchical notebook/folder structure which provides structure for saving new items

Hi. Evernote only has stacks and notebooks available (a two level hierarchy). I think the service is designed to rely more on tags than notebooks for organization, so I think that even if it is not necessarily comfortable at first, you'll be better off in the long run using tags. With a few exceptions, I use neither notebooks nor tags myself (http://www.princeton.edu/~cmayo/evernote-organization.html) for organizational purposes.

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I am a relatively new Evernote user and I must agree with people making the argument for sub-notebooks. Evernote is a great tool, but the programmers need to realize that people think differently. I own/run car dealerships and there are some great products out there but the ones that stand out are the ones where the users tell the programmers how we work versus the programmers telling the users HOW WE SHOULD WORK.

Here's an example: I want to create a Notebook named 'Travel', with sub-notebooks with Hotels and Restaurants. In 'Hotels' and 'Restaurants' sub-folders I would like to create sub-folders with countries, cities, states, whatever and then if I read an article about a restaurant or a hotel in say Paris, France I can send to that sub-folder and then if I have a trip planned to Paris, France I can open up the sub-notebook(s) about Hotels and Restaurants in those sub-folders and make reservations or whatever.

Having to create a notebook for Paris, France hotels and another for Paris, France restaurants and then having to create keywords seems an inelegant solution for people that think like me; it seems like needless steps to create a notebook and then have to ALSO create key words seems like extra work. Extra needless steps, extra needless notebooks listed out without being able to collapse the original Notebook 'Travel' to just disappear as one Notebook until needed.

As much as I travel there are many, many, many hotels and restaurants I want to visit and have data on. So the Evernote programmers are telling me I need potentially 100's of hotel notebooks and 100's of restaurant notebooks versus just nesting them? I'd tell my programmers to figure it out.

This seems to be a clear case of "The Programmers" telling "The Users" how they have to think versus "The Programmers" listening to "The Users" and creating multiple ways to achieve the same desired outcome based upon how their users THINK. I don't understand the pushback on this issue and I can find no clear explanation as to the logic behind Evernote's ownership's ruling on this.

I am a fair and reasonable man. If Evernote can provide a clear and reasonable explanation as to why they want their users to create a notebook AND tags versus just creating nested/sub-notebooks I am open to listening....

thx.

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As much as I travel there are many, many, many hotels and restaurants I want to visit and have data on. So the Evernote programmers are telling me I need potentially 100's of hotel notebooks and 100's of restaurant notebooks versus just nesting them? I'd tell my programmers to figure it out.

I'd steer away from the multiple notebook issue entirely.

Just one notebook named Travel

All my travel notes for 50+ countries are thrown into a single notebook: Travel plans, Hotel info, Restaurant info, flight details, directions, cost, etc.

Just use a consistent well structured title.

For instance, I use the structure YYYY-MM-DD Country State/City Company Description Person

Here are some random notes from my own Travel notebook (with tags)

2004-11-13 Germany Munich Holiday Inn City Centre JLB (tag:hotel)

2000-06-14 Costa Rica Santa Ana Biker's Bar cervesas w/ Marino Chavez JLB (tag:restaurant)

1998-06-14 USA MA Boston London Amsterdam BA flt JLB DLB (tag:flight)

1997-05-11 India Delhi Oberoi Maidens Hotel JLB (tag:hotel)

If I wanted to find hotels in India, I would search for:

intitle:India tag:hotel

.

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It's never going to happen, you either deal with it and find a way to make it work for you or you look for another product.

It's really not that complicated.

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This seems to be a clear case of "The Programmers" telling "The Users" how they have to think versus "The Programmers" listening to "The Users" and creating multiple ways to achieve the same desired outcome based upon how their users THINK.

They are not telling you how to think. They have a product & it works a certain way. If this doesn't work for you, you're free to use another app. No one is forcing you to use EN.

I'd guess the tag vs sub notebook system has something to do with making the app function well across all the platforms EN lives on. But I don't know & it really doesn't matter. It's their company & their decision & I'm sure there's a good reason they've chosen to implement it this way. Tags provide the same functionality. If sub notebooks are a deal breaker for you, then you will need to find another app.

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I am a relatively new Evernote user and I must agree with people making the argument for sub-notebooks. Evernote is a great tool, but the programmers need to realize that people think differently. I own/run car dealerships and there are some great products out there but the ones that stand out are the ones where the users tell the programmers how we work versus the programmers telling the users HOW WE SHOULD WORK.

Here's an example: I want to create a Notebook named 'Travel', with sub-notebooks with Hotels and Restaurants. In 'Hotels' and 'Restaurants' sub-folders I would like to create sub-folders with countries, cities, states, whatever and then if I read an article about a restaurant or a hotel in say Paris, France I can send to that sub-folder and then if I have a trip planned to Paris, France I can open up the sub-notebook(s) about Hotels and Restaurants in those sub-folders and make reservations or whatever.

Having to create a notebook for Paris, France hotels and another for Paris, France restaurants and then having to create keywords seems an inelegant solution for people that think like me; it seems like needless steps to create a notebook and then have to ALSO create key words seems like extra work. Extra needless steps, extra needless notebooks listed out without being able to collapse the original Notebook 'Travel' to just disappear as one Notebook until needed.

As much as I travel there are many, many, many hotels and restaurants I want to visit and have data on. So the Evernote programmers are telling me I need potentially 100's of hotel notebooks and 100's of restaurant notebooks versus just nesting them? I'd tell my programmers to figure it out.

This seems to be a clear case of "The Programmers" telling "The Users" how they have to think versus "The Programmers" listening to "The Users" and creating multiple ways to achieve the same desired outcome based upon how their users THINK. I don't understand the pushback on this issue and I can find no clear explanation as to the logic behind Evernote's ownership's ruling on this.

I am a fair and reasonable man. If Evernote can provide a clear and reasonable explanation as to why they want their users to create a notebook AND tags versus just creating nested/sub-notebooks I am open to listening....

thx.

Hi. Welcome to the forums!

In an ideal world, I bet the Evernote developers would agree: let's have an app that does anything you want, totally customizable for your needs, and available that way on any operating system / device. However, that isn't how things work with cars, software, or any other product. Designers have to make decisions about what to put into a product based on available resources (capabilities of devices and operating systems, time, money, manpower, expertise, etc.). From the early days, Evernote decided tags would be a better way of organizing notes than notebooks. Personally, I think they ought to have both systems in place, but that would mean we'd have nothing to grouse about in the forums, and this place would get shut down :)

Seriously, though, I don't know why they made this decision. My guess would have to be that they saw folder hierarchies and complicated organizational systems as antithetical to an "external brain." Our meat brains don't organize things into yellow manilla folders, so why should our silicon ones? Instead, we associate items with other ones similar to tags -- a memory of our mom could link to delicious home cooking just as easily as it could to a family trip, so why would we try and force things into this folder or that one?

That is just a guess, but it makes sense to me, and is certainly an approach that resonates with me. I've written a bit about my Evernote use case on my website (http://www.princeton.edu/~cmayo/notebook.html). My use case might be too minimalistic for most people, but the general principle of associating things with one another instead of organizing them into categories is the same.

More broadly speaking, I think Phil and his team are a little more ambitous than just giving customers what they want. Like Apple under Jobs, I think they see their mission as one of creating a new way of living that will appeal to people, rather than giving people the supercharged TO DO list and task manager that everyone says they want. Evernote Hello (in my opinion) is something along these lines, because it challenges us to totally rethink how we do a fundamental ritual that we have all performed at one time or another; namely, meeting people. Because it is so radical in some ways, it probably hasn't been adopted as widely as something like Food or (soon) Penultimate. However, in the end, it may take us to a better place than a more conventional contact manager would have.

I think that is pretty cool, and along the lines of the company's less well-known goal to make people smarter. They say they want to help you remember stuff, but I think that is only the first step. Yellow manilla folders don't seem to fit very well into my vision of a smarter me :)

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If Evernote would just integrate tags better,in fact all of data accessability better I'd use it as a standalone.

In most all tag centric apps the good ones have all notebooks tags listed with it (in various ways)...and theyre clickable...so they can actually function much more like subnotebooks. Many position their tags much like hashmarks at the bottom of every note in a Notebook.

Additionally,being able to put notes in multiple notebooks also greatly helps cross UI connections of data. The network of connected data isnt connected very well to me in Evernote.. Note links are great but not economical like tags...nor are they available awith the Mobile clients.

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If you're on Windows & want a tag cloud, check out Tag Hunter. I don't like tag clouds but he added a list view, too. I've found the list view very helpful when I forget exactly what a tag name is or where I nested that tag.

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I use notelinks in index notes(Wiki-like) instead of heirarchy notes. Index note might help you if you need multiple note levels.

But the problem is that you can only do this with desktop version of EN.

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I use notelinks in index notes(Wiki-like) instead of heirarchy notes. Index note might help you if you need multiple note levels.

But the problem is that you can only do this with desktop version of EN.

It does break your workflow if you move to mobile. I'm hoping that note links will come sometime soon to mobile, because (like the complaints about missing stacks on the iPad) if an organizational tool is missing in one place, it might as well be missing in them all.

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I am a fair and reasonable man. If Evernote can provide a clear and reasonable explanation as to why they want their users to create a notebook AND tags versus just creating nested/sub-notebooks I am open to listening....

I find hierarchical systems cumbersome, difficult to maintain and almost impossible to ever find things in again. I end up spending to much time trying to figure out the right place to put things or remember what I thought was the right place a year ago. Notebooks and tags are simple, and allow multiple ways of cataloging the same item. I spend much less time filing and more time using my information. I could probably ditch notebooks entirely and go with tags. I get the impression the people who designed Evernote have a similar take on the matter. This view point is precisely why I use Evernote. I chose not to use programs the force me in to what is for me an artificial outline format. I don't spend time trying to get the developers of those programs to emulate Evernote.

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I find hierarchical systems cumbersome, difficult to maintain and almost impossible to ever find things in again. I end up spending to much time trying to figure out the right place to put things or remember what I thought was the right place a year ago. Notebooks and tags are simple, and allow multiple ways of cataloging the same item. I spend much less time filing and more time using my information. I could probably ditch notebooks entirely and go with tags. I get the impression the people who designed Evernote have a similar take on the matter. This view point is precisely why I use Evernote. I chose not to use programs the force me in to what is for me an artificial outline format. I don't spend time trying to get the developers of those programs to emulate Evernote.

Excellent response. A clear explanation of why the current Evernote program is so powerful. Well done!

Evernoted for future reference.

.

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@megsaint: Pretty much where I'm at. Well put.

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I find hierarchical systems cumbersome, difficult to maintain and almost impossible to ever find things in again.

This is a very old debate within the Evernote community.

Suffice it to say both hierarchical and flat (tags) systems have their advantages.

Perhaps more important is that different people can think very differently. What is difficult to some is easy and logical to others.

Personally I find the combination of hierarchical organization and cross-cutting tags to be the most powerful approach.

If Evernote would just add a minor enhancement to their search engine to include child tags in a search for a parent tag, then the Evernote hierarchical tags would be extremely powerful.

For example: adding a plus symbol to a parent tag name would tell Evernote to include any of the sub-tags in the search:

tag:HW+

would mean the same as:

any: tag:HW tag:Computer tag:Router tag:hub

where "Computer", "Router", and "Hub" are sub-tags to "HW".

Currently we have to apply both the parent tag and the child tag to a Note in order to find all notes whose child tag is a sub-tag of the parent.

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Currently we have to apply both the parent tag and the child tag to a Note in order to find all notes whose child tag is a sub-tag of the parent.

The Plus sign is an interesting concept. With the way Evernote search logic works, the plus might have to be in front of the Parent tag.

Here is the work around I use to find all the Children tags

Hardware

Hdw-Computer

Hdw-Router

Hdw-Hub

To find all the notes tagged with the children of Hardware, I search for

tag:Hdw-*

.

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I find hierarchical systems cumbersome, difficult to maintain and almost impossible to ever find things in again.

This is a very old debate within the Evernote community.

Suffice it to say both hierarchical and flat (tags) systems have their advantages.

Perhaps more important is that different people can think very differently. What is difficult to some is easy and logical to others.

Personally I find the combination of hierarchical organization and cross-cutting tags to be the most powerful approach.

I use hierarchical system too.

For me, I don't use the system to "find". I use it to "remember".

I use Evernote to memorize things and organize my thoughts.

Without hierarchical system, I might only note the details but not the overall picture.

So I need it.

If I only want to find things, I can search it by typing keywords.

But I have to not only find things, but also knowing where things should be in an organized structure.

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Excellent response. A clear explanation of why the current Evernote program is so powerful. Well done!

Evernoted for future reference.

.

<blush> Thank you.

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But I have to not only find things, but also knowing where things should be in an organized structure.

Which is where tags shine.

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If I only want to find things, I can search it by typing keywords.

But I have to not only find things, but also knowing where things should be in an organized structure.

It's apparently a little known fact that tags do form an organized structure, albeit not necessarily hierarchical. Of course, if you want to organize your notes into a hierarchy using tags, there are techniques that allow you to do so (see jbenson's system, for one), and they can actually convey some benefits in note filtering: by reflecting hierarchy position in a tag name, you can use wildcards to locate notes in a specific branch of your hierarchy. And tags do this today, which obviates the need to try to bet whether Evernote will ever provide arbitrarily nested notebooks any time in the future.

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If I only want to find things, I can search it by typing keywords.

But I have to not only find things, but also knowing where things should be in an organized structure.

It's apparently a little known fact that tags do form an organized structure, albeit not necessarily hierarchical. Of course, if you want to organize your notes into a hierarchy using tags, there are techniques that allow you to do so (see jbenson's system, for one), and they can actually convey some benefits in note filtering: by reflecting hierarchy position in a tag name, you can use wildcards to locate notes in a specific branch of your hierarchy. And tags do this today, which obviates the need to try to bet whether Evernote will ever provide arbitrarily nested notebooks any time in the future.

Thank you, I know the tags do form an organized structure and I'm using it.

And I use index note with note links to organize my notes too because I'm in need of multi-structure system which tags can't do.

I just don't think "hierarchical system is cumbersome", so I replied.

In fact, hierarchical system is necessary. Just look at your computer's file structure.

DId they put all the things together?

And unfortunately, structured tags are not available on iOS yet.

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In fact, hierarchical system is necessary. Just look at your computer's file structure.

A hierarchical foundation is not necessary to present a file system to the user. There's no theoretical or mathematical reason why hierarchies are the sole best organizing scheme for content, or that their use is required. That being said, hierarchy is a useful tool in the organizing toolbox, and it's all the more important because it's familiar (then again, Kim Kardashian seems to be famous because she's famous -- go figure). Bottom line for me is that tags theoretically have the power to express hierarchies, but not the converse. It's one of the reasons that I prefer tagged organization. The flip side in this instance is that Evernote has not really provided support for more fully realizing tag expressiveness, so we can't quite do all of the hierarchical operations as we might like -- for example, the ability to organize tags hierarchically is useful, but the inability of search to understand that hierarchy is an impediment.

Suck to live in an imperfect world, right? :)

And unfortunately, structured tags are not available on iOS yet.

I certainly accept that this is unfortunate. I think it will be remedied, sooner rather than later, or at least should be.

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then again, Kim Kardashian seems to be famous because she's famous -- go figure

A pun? You know, she is famous for her figure, among other things.

Anyhow, my brain seems to work pretty well without a hierarchical organizational system, but I think it is true that stuff outside of my brain don't tend to do as well. Evernote's tags, especially if they become "smarter" by getting applied automatically (with an option not to do it, of course) might help us make the leap to an external brain that works more like our internal one.

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For once, there was no pun intended. And there's plenty of people with nice figures who ain't famous, I reckon.

I've advocated -- in my way -- for smart tagging since, well, basically since not long after I started on the forums... :)

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