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Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

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Really? You think the response to subnotebooks has been pretty clear? The closest thing to a clear "no" that I saw was in this post:

...

All together, this combination of metaphors and tools is moderately complex, and exceeds the total capabilities of comparable consumer applications. We would never say that this is the final end state of the product, but we are currently not doing any work to make these organizational metaphors more complex ... there are a lot of things more pressing for many users that we're working on right now. ...

I have pretty much assumed subnotebooks aren't going to happen. And as I've posted before I can deal with that provided tag hierarchies actually work like real hierarchies.

But I think claiming that Dave's post - or the "official word" from EN about this - has been "pretty clear" is far too generous. I am merely assuming that subnotebooks aren't happening, because it sounds like that is the case. I don't know for sure. Do you?

Evernote is a great product that I don't regret paying for. And I understand that there is a fine line to walk when promising features to your customers (don't want to over-promise, raise unrealistic expectations, still want to meet customer needs). But I don't think the Evernote staff has even come close to that line. There are a few posts where Dave (I think) responds by basically saying "tags are the way to go" - which is fine. But I'm still waiting to see about tag hierarchy implementation - whether it will ever go beyond a simple visual organizational gimmick. Without tag inheritance of some kind, it just doesn't work for me.

Sorry if I sound petulant. I'm tired of wishy-washy responses from software companies. I think the audience should be respected more. Tell us "No, we're not going in that direction" or "That's not going to happen in 2009." I think much of the frustration stems from not really knowing what the plans are. Too many people are asking the same questions. And that's just the audience that is participating on the forum. OK, I'll assume the direction of EN is tags and not subnotebooks. Can we get tag inheritance? Are there any plans for this? Can someone from Evernote please state whether this is being considered? On the horizon? A goal for 2009? I'm not asking for "we'll have tag inheritance completed, tested and released by Sept 2009." (but that would be pretty cool ;) )

Apologies in advance if the official answer has already been posted. But I doubt it has. I subscribed to a lot of different threads on this forum that are all asking essentially 2 or 3 questions. I'm not seeing any official answers from Evernote in the posts. That gets old real fast.

To their credit, the New Year's resolution e-mail was nice. That did provide some insight into EN development, and I appreciated that.

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Well, I find Dave's comment's clear unless someone insists on a 'never' rather than just a 'no' (and I can't think where you'd get that). If you look back at the context I had asked him to clarify so that people could either decide to use alternative tools where necessary, or just adapt to tags. I found his statement enough to convince me on a pragmatic level that it wasn't worth waiting for any hierarchical means of organisation, so I use a different tool now for projects, restricting EN for miscellaneous capture and search.

In general, I don't agree that software companies have any particular duty to inform customers/competitors of their plans, but EN has maybe invited the demand by adopting a subscription model. Buying a product with features fixed at the time of purchase is quite different to signing up for a period of time not knowing what you're going to get a few months down the line. So I agree there.

I'd also like real hierarchical tags (the current system is really a bit of a fake), so agree there also.

But the pragmatic upshot is unambiguous: if you need forms of organisation beyond EN's flat tag system, don't waste time waiting for it from EN, but find a more appropriate tool now.

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It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

ALLOW COPIES OF TAGS TO BE POSITIONED BESIDE THE NOTEBOOKS!!!

This will make it look like there are sub-notebooks.

Summary : -

Tags draggable to Notebooks (new behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Notebook get assigned to the Notebook (existing behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Notebook's Tag get assigned to the Notebook AND its Tag (new behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Tag get assigned to the Tag (existing behaviour)

Notes dragged to a Sub-Tag get assigned to the sub-tag and its parent Tag (new behaviour)

Clicking on Project2\Tag5 you would see only Notes in that Notebook with Tag5 (which is exactly the same as currently highlighting a Notebook and a Tag!)

Clicking on Project2 top level would obviously show ALL Project2 Notes (as currently)

Clicking on Tag5 in the Tag List would obviously show ALL Tag 5 Notes (as currently)

NoteBooks

+project 1

____tag1

____tag4

+project 2

____tag1

____tag5

+project 3

____tag1

____tag6

____tag7

Tags

tag1

tag2

tag3

+tag4

____tag5

____tag6

tag7

- No change to basic architecture or search function.

- People who like things just as they are dont need to drag tags to Notebooks and will perceive no difference.

- People who want/need sub-notebooks just use tags to create them.

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It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

One serious problem with flat tags is that they exist in one namespace. An example: it's a trivial issue with any hierarchical organisational system to have multiple instances of 'Chapter 1' or 'Introduction'. That's also the most natural way to express collections for the Chapter 1 or Introduction of several different projects. But it's impossible with flat tags.

Tags are useful. Hierarchical containers are useful. Each can to some extent be used in place of the other in some situations. But they are fundamentally and formally distinct.

I suspect I'm not the only person here who knows perfectly well that some of my projects need container hierarchies and am getting a bit bored of being told that they don't.

Edit: btw stuartibee, I do think your suggested enhancements are good ideas. They'd bring tags nearer to being a practical substitute for hierarchical collections.

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But the pragmatic upshot is unambiguous: if you need forms of organisation beyond EN's flat tag system, don't waste time waiting for it from EN, but find a more appropriate tool now.

First off, I want to thank you for responding so patiently. I was concerned I came across snarkier than I intended.

You and I agree on many points. Though we seem to have a different idea on what a clear answer means. I'd still argue (based on your response) that you had to *figure out* what Dave meant. My point was that if someone asks "Will you provide feature A?" Answering "We suggest using feature B, and here are reasons why feature B is awesome." - isn't really answering the original question. There are *implied* answers, of course. Hmmm... I can see this discussion veering off into semantic nit-picking. :D

In response to your more recent post - I can imagine it gets tiresome to be told that feature B can do the same as feature A - when A and B are really different ways of thinking about things. Your example of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" was great. Though I was one who originally asked for subnotebooks, I realized that *for me* I could probably get by with a true hierarchical tag system. I understand the different between tags and notebooks, but am willing to adopt one method (provided it gets implemented fully).

Subnotebooks != tags, even with inheritance. But for many, that inheritance would go a long way.

It seems to me that tagging does already offer the functionality of sub-notebooks. It sjust a matter of interface and presentation IMHO.

Here is my idea to provide sub-notebook functionality without altering the basic existing architecture of Evernote.

(snip)

- No change to basic architecture or search function.

- People who like things just as they are dont need to drag tags to Notebooks and will perceive no difference.

- People who want/need sub-notebooks just use tags to create them.

Great suggestions. I promise to send cookies to the Evernote office if these features get implemented in 2009. And to you as well, provided you are in the U.S. (not American snobbery - just don't want to send perishables internationally)

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First off, I want to thank you for responding so patiently. I was concerned I came across snarkier than I intended.

No snarkiness detected (or offense taken).

All the (as you say) semantics aside, I think we know from Dave's posts here, along with recent announcements of priorities, that EN's organisational facilities are just not going to change fundamentally in the foreseeable future. So there's little point in more petitioning. Those of us who find a tag-only approach less than adequate either have to use something else, or work around the limitations. I use a combination of both (zotero for projects, EN for misc capture and storage).

Suggestions for workarounds and enhancements using tags (like stuartibee's) are welcome and useful, even if like me you need or prefer containers for some purposes.

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I suspect I'm not the only person here who knows perfectly well that some of my projects need container hierarchies and am getting a bit bored of being told that they don't.

There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept. You could think of 'Notebooks' as tags too. Your notes are a continuous ribbon.

Even on a desktop file system like XP your stuff is scattered all over the hard drive and the 'container folders' you perceive is a just labelling system.

Re-badge the hierarchical tags as 'smart folders' and make them behave properly and everyone is happy?

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There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept. You could think of 'Notebooks' as tags too. Your notes are a continuous ribbon.

I have to respectfully disagree. A note can only be in ONE notebook, hence the notebook is a container. If a notebook were a tag, you could have a note in several notebooks.

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After spending time on my Sunday morning replying to a dozen forum topics (and even more second-level direct tech support requests), it's refreshing to come in on Monday morning to hear from Daly that we don't reply to users.

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I'll admit that I don't always get what I ask for here, but hey, I realize that I'm only one of many. There may be a few threads that seem to fall through the cracks (but that's because we can't get what we want), but to say that EN doesn't reply to users...well, ffffflpppppbbbtttt.

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There are no 'containers'. Its all an abstract concept.

Yes, the concept of containerhood, which flat tags don't instantiate.

Re-badge the hierarchical tags as 'smart folders' and make them behave properly and everyone is happy?

Hierarchical tags with independent namespaces, presented via a convenient UI, would suit my needs.

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From what I see the sub-notebook discussion is being ignored by EN.

I think you're confusing listening with obedience. 'No' is a perfectly reasonable response to a feature request.

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Ouch. Not sure what happened there. I "know" Daly (as much as you can know someone from reading their online postings) from other mailing lists/groups. I would describe him as helpful, intelligent, level-headed, even classy. This latest seems out of character. Believe me, I'm not one to shy from complaining/whining about the feature set I want. But to post on an external site that development of a product seems to have stopped because "your" features haven't been implemented/answered satisfactorily is out of line.

It's one thing to express disappointment, criticism, etc. Quite another to imply a company's product is vaporware. Not cool.

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It's one thing to express disappointment, criticism, etc. Quite another to imply a company's product is vaporware. Not cool.

Ah well, its understandable enough. We invest an awful lot of time in software we use a lot, and it can be frustrating not to have an influence over its direction. In an ideal world I'd dictate my desired feature set, which would change about every 2nd week, to my own personal team of developers. They'd hate me, but be sufficiently well paid to stay with the job.

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Hierarchical tags with independent namespaces, presented via a convenient UI, would suit my needs.

I sort of agree with Crispinb on this one, but I need to be able to drag copies of tags under notebooks, so that the same tag can appear under more than one notebook. Then it looks like sub-folders. : -

+NOTEBOOKS

Notebook1

______data

______notes

______tips-tricks

Notebook2

______data

______notes

______tips-tricks

+TAGS

application

assembly

construction

data

notes

tips-tricks

Surely this wouldn't be hard to do . . since there seems to be a pseudo-hierarchical tag thing working already?

Keep everything as it is. Just allow tags to be located under notebooks.

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Ok here is my view, I have been using EV at both home and work since 2.1 and paid for my personal copy for ver. 2.2

and I am still paying for my home copy and using free version at work. If there were subfolders it would probably be easier to keep them in one account. But even saying that, I've got over 200 tags in my work database so adding my personal database to that would be even more unwielding. What would be more key is a way to filter the tags by notebook. It would be an icon next to the Tags heading on the left and when activated would only show the tags that are normally highlighted in bold. This would help me find things a bit like the intersection area in ver. 2.2.

If I had it my way my data structure would look something like

+Notebooks

+Personal

finance

healthcare

etc....

+Work

+Projects

proj1

proj2

+Standards

ADOT

etc.....

+Tags

Control

Asbuilts

Field work

Scope of Work

etc....

Where if I selected a different notebook it would show me an other set of tags. If I needed a tag that was not shown I would either just type it in or use the drop down or unclick the filter icon and see them all.

Bruce

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Where if I selected a different notebook it would show me an other set of tags. If I needed a tag that was not shown I would either just type it in or use the drop down or unclick the filter icon and see them all.

I like this idea a lot. This would work well for me. I wonder how the idea of distinct tags would be implemented, though. Consider crispinb's scenario of multiple instances of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" within parent containers.

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I see my structure didn't space right :?

+Notebooks

___+Personal

_____finance

_____healthcare

_____etc....

___+Work

_____+Projects

_______proj1

_______proj2

___+Standards

______ADOT

______etc.....

+Tags

___Control

___Asbuilts

___Field work

___Scope of Work

___etc....

I like this idea a lot. This would work well for me. I wonder how the idea of distinct tags would be implemented, though. Consider crispinb's scenario of multiple instances of "Chapter 1" or "Introduction" within parent containers.

I guess I not sure what’s missing here? If you select All Notebooks and tag "Chapter 1" you would see all the notes you have that have "Chapter 1" tag in them, If you select just the tag "Chapter 1" you can see which notebook it is in from the note book column.

Ok so playing with this a little more I see if you have tags for "Book1" "Book2" etc. and you select the tag "Chapter 1"

all the books that have a "Chapter 1" tag highlight, then you select the "Book1" tag also you only see the note for "Chapter 1" in that book. So I see the argument for not needing sub-note books. Now if the tags were dynamic so you only saw the tags that are now bolded in the selection set I wouldn't have to scroll so much.

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For my purposes that would be cumbersome (if I'm correctly following the suggestion). In Zotero (or plain filesystem directories, or anything with hierarchical structures available), all I have to do to work on Chapter 1 of Project X is click on that Chapter 1. That's it. And I easily stay in that context whilst working on chapter 1. Then it's just 1 click to work on the Intro of that project, etc. The ergonomics are good because a truly hierarchical means of organisation fits a hierarchical project.

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Subnotebooks would be great! I see their functionality as being different than tags. If you're relying on tags to replicate this functionality, then you'll end up with an unnecessarily long list of tags, and I'd rather be able to use tags to overlay another form of organization over my collected data. And speaking of tags, they're not that useful if I can't select more than one at a time, e.g. Family and Vacation and Tora Bora.

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And speaking of tags, they're not that useful if I can't select more than one at a time, e.g. Family and Vacation and Tora Bora.

You can select multiple tags, just press Ctrl whilst clicking on the tags!

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I just started using EN a few days ago and love it - EXCEPT that it Doesn't Have Subfolders. The previous explanations for the need of subfolders couldn't be any clearer. This is an important tool, the continued omission of which hampers and frustrates the usability (not to mention the user) of EN. EN will always be hobbled without subfolders.

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I just started using EN a few days ago and love it - EXCEPT that it Doesn't Have Subfolders. The previous explanations for the need of subfolders couldn't be any clearer. This is an important tool, the continued omission of which hampers and frustrates the usability (not to mention the user) of EN. EN will always be hobbled without subfolders.

Yes! Yes! Yes! Please guys - add subnotebooks!

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Pretty please, don't repeat the same demands on different threads ... this is a forum for Evernote users to discuss ideas and solve problems with each other, not a shouting match. Evernote reads every post, so redundancy just wastes everyone's time.

Thanks

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OK, but please tell us - after so many requests - are you going to implement it?

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I must say that sub notebooks in conjunction with tags make sense to me.

I am a photographer and I have an extensive catalogue of images. These are sorted in 2 ways:

1 a heirarchical file structure which is just a list of folders containing different jobs. Each folder fits onto a dvd for ease of backup.

2 a keyword system which is the same as tags. So I can find/tag images easily across my catalogue using catalogue software.

I also use a GTD program called MyLifeOrganised. Its an excellent program and is set up in the same way ie a hierarchical folder system and then "contexts"(tags) which feed into a to-do list.

I'm also a big fan of EN and have been using since v2. Whilst I love the program, I think the addition of a hierarchical structure would make it a lot stronger and more intuitive.

Cheers, Dean

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Re the question of whether EN replies to posts, or not.

If I came out and said EN doesn't, as in the sense of general policy, or seldom, as in the sense of almost never, I mispoke myself.

Over time what I have observed is that the responses from EN are not as frequent, and that there is more of a delay. This could be explained by many things, including pressures from other work-related duties.

What I have observed that truly bothers me is there appears to be less response to those posts asking for things that aren't on the roadmap, or that reflect the anger and tremendous inconveniences to many EN users that resulted in differences between EN2 and EN3. I do not believe even to this day that EN developers realize the extent of issues they caused for us who had invested heavily in using EN.

So what we have seen is decreased responsiveness around that question, and little indication that some other features, such as highlighting, improved paragraph capabilities, etc. are even seriously considered.

I know many posts get answered still - but not the ones that go to the thorniest public relations and customer satisfaction challenges EN has.

It's upsetting for those of us who are heavy duty information processing types to see the features so important to us removed in favor of those who want not so much heavy info capability as the ability to grab something on the run, regardless of whether they are desk-based, phone-based, etc.

I agree with those who say that the cloud capability, which seems to me what much of this is about, is vital and indeed even essential for programs wanting to stay current and attractive in the marketplace.

I hope this clarifies my position on EN responding to people posting on the forum.

So in a phrase - fewer responses generally, and fewer responses and much less emphasis on those still trying to get to recognize needs of heavy duty info users.

Daly

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Pretty please, don't repeat the same demands on different threads ... this is a forum for Evernote users to discuss ideas and solve problems with each other, not a shouting match. Evernote reads every post, so redundancy just wastes everyone's time.

Thanks

Dave, I think it's a reflection of the strong feelings around some issues. And while I know you answer posts, it is nonetheless a reflection of the fact that EN for reasons known only to itself has decided to avoid discussion around certain features, etc.

My thought is that EN has decided not to make any changes re notebook structure, or to do anything much to make EN a more capable, heavy duty player in information processing. I base that on lack of response to posts reflecting those issues.

The allure of the cloud has won out, but the realization is yet to be seen on your end that while heavy duty users are willing to risk the cloud, they are not going to do so quietly if it means less capability than your product has already proven it could provide, and without certain enhancements we all know EN could introduce if they thought we were a sufficiently worthy part of the market for you.

A friendly word of caution - watch out for Microsoft (unless you recent development course is to position yourselves for a buy-out, which is perfectly valid business strategy). Over the last few years it has shown itself able to be sensitive to users of various info program, what with OneNote and, now, Thumbtack. If you're not looking for a buy-out, you increasingly have one heck of a competitor that is more serious than ever about bedding down in your niche.

Also, the seeming wind down of Google Notes has done two things:

It has made people with any tendency to worry about the security of the cloud start worrying. That's not good for EN. Though EN is much better than Google Notes, those who begin to feel abandoned on the cloud might vote with their feet, and opt for down-to-earth solutions.

The second thing it has done is to unleash some fervor among cloud developers to become a replacement for Notes. That means a more competitive market for EN - getting EN2 users who are now disgruntled on side might make better sense than ever.

For those of us who feel left out w EN3, Google Notes is just one more example of being jilted at high altitudes.

Daly

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Ouch. Not sure what happened there. I "know" Daly (as much as you can know someone from reading their online postings) from other mailing lists/groups. I would describe him as helpful, intelligent, level-headed, even classy. This latest seems out of character. Believe me, I'm not one to shy from complaining/whining about the feature set I want. But to post on an external site that development of a product seems to have stopped because "your" features haven't been implemented/answered satisfactorily is out of line.

It's one thing to express disappointment, criticism, etc. Quite another to imply a company's product is vaporware. Not cool.

Kenneth, thank you first of all for the good things you said about me.

Please know I thought carefully about making the reference to an outside forum. It is not one I made without some thought. The fact that I did reflected a couple of things. One, the general sense of disempowerment when dealing with vital, core issues arising with changes in EN2, accompanied by a shift in EN's pattern of responding to messages.

It will be interesting on that point to see how and when EN responds to the individuals concerned about an arbitrary size limit on local notebooks.

The other aspect of my decision to recommend going outside the forum is this: Just as EN3 reflected the reality of the cloud, the massive uptick of people involved in social networking sites, especially such as Twitter, has brought a new level of social organizing and empowerment to individuals to speak out on issues of concern. I am not arguing this should be the first choice, but social networking brings to us cloud hoppers capabilities not so different from some of what organizer Saul Alinsky talked about in the 50s.

www.outlinersoftware.com is an independent site where people gather to discuss all kinds of things related to information management. One of the recurring issues has been when one's favorite developer goes out of business. More recently the phenomenon has arisen of the company that makes significant changes in a product without apparent awareness consistently or increasingly expressed over time of the costs in time, money, aggravation to loyal users.

In reality, this latter phenomenon reflects what EN did. As such, I'd maintain its fair to bring the discussion to an outside forum where people have an interest in this aspect of relating with software developers. Please note, this recommendation on my part was so far from being my first or initial reaction that it almost might seem like it was an after-thought. If it had been my first, or fifth (!), response I think I could be fairly criticized for not having given EN a fair chance before going public.

I hope this helps to clarify.

Cheers,

Daly

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You've all seen discussion forums and Internet groups that descend into disfunctional shouting matches and ad hominem personal attacks. I'm sure you've seen other communities that work relatively well because their main aim is collaboration and problem-solving. We hope to keep this forum in the latter category, and do it without some of the aggressive moderation advocated by (e.g.) Edward Tufte: http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and ... _id=0000fT

This is important not because it protects our feelings, but because it makes this site more useful for all of its visitors. Nothing is a bigger turn-off to a new visitor than a bunch of 12-page flame wars.

I think the balance here is pretty good so far because the average Evernote user tends to be more professional and mature than the average contributor to the Britney Spears Fan Forum. While we can't give specific answers to every question about the future, we aim to solve immediate problems and bottlenecks for people while hearing everyone's opinions on their first post so that they don't need to re-post or bump or "+1".

Thanks again

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You've all seen discussion forums and Internet groups that descend into disfunctional shouting matches and ad hominem personal attacks. I'm sure you've seen other communities that work relatively well because their main aim is collaboration and problem-solving. We hope to keep this forum in the latter category, and do it without some of the aggressive moderation advocated by (e.g.) Edward Tufte: http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and ... _id=0000fT

This is important not because it protects our feelings, but because it makes this site more useful for all of its visitors. Nothing is a bigger turn-off to a new visitor than a bunch of 12-page flame wars.

I think the balance here is pretty good so far because the average Evernote user tends to be more professional and mature than the average contributor to the Britney Spears Fan Forum. While we can't give specific answers to every question about the future, we aim to solve immediate problems and bottlenecks for people while hearing everyone's opinions on their first post so that they don't need to re-post or bump or "+1".

Thanks again

I agree and that's why I politely ask you for your answer since this question has been raised more times than I care to remember - are subnotebooks going to be supported, are they a priority feature, is it being worked on?

That's all we're concerned abouthere (I strongly believe I can speak on behalf of many of the members!).

Thank you!

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that's why I politely ask you for your answer since this question has been raised more times than I care to remember - are subnotebooks going to be supported, are they a priority feature, is it being worked on?

And Dave has already politely answered. He was quoted above, but here's a link to the original: viewtopic.php?f=42&t=7385#p28325. EN are not working on subnotebooks (or any other hierarchical means of organisation), and are not currently planning to do so.

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Thank you! I apologize for my post.

Sorry to be the bearer of bad news (I'd like subnotebooks or similar too).

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+1 for subnotebooks also

I find the cross platform functionality very useful, but the lack of ability to nest notebooks or even have a truly hierarchical tag structure is a significant shortcoming--one that keeps me from signing up for a Premier account.

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This thread has reached a fifth page, which makes it a bit unwieldy. I'm going to close this thread, but feel free to open a new one if you think there's information that wasn't covered in this five-page thread.

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Hello everybody

I understand this is a hot subjet, I read many posts about it, how some people think tags are better,or worse or anything.

I don't want to start another pro or con subNotebook threat.

I just want to know if this feature will be implemented in the next futur or not.

Can someone from Evernote dev team can answer this simple question please ?

Thx you

Ltn

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We aren't currently working on this, but we haven't ruled it out in the future.

Thanks for the feedback ...

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Thx for the quick answer !

I read lot of post on the subject, but I think it's the first I see from the dev team.

I apreciate.

Ok, so it's best if I don't count on it soon.

Thx again for the answer

Ltn

PS :Speaking for myself :

I can't imagine using a notes repository applications that doesn't implement some kind of sub folder and a tag system.

Evernote has everything I need except "subnotebooking"

Judging by the number of posts on this suject I'm not the only one waiting for this feature.

IMHO, you should think seriously about developing this feature (even if it dificult to implement in the actual code).

Especially since this is a no intrusive feature (people that doesn't need/like sub-notebook don't have to use them)

You will make a lot of people happy and really thinking about switching to Evernote (like myself)

Appart for this -imo surprissing- miss, Evernote is really a amazing piece of work. Congratulation !

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Is subNotebook the same thing as folders?

What I would really like to see is the ability to group notebooks into folders. Tagging's great and has it's place, but it can be a bit of a hassle to tag everything and like the user above, I think a simple folder structure for organising notes is an absolutely basic essential feature.

I love Evernote. It is exactly what I was looking for and have upgraded to premium. But this lack of folders really should be addressed as a No.1 priority in IMO.

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I'd really, really like to see sub-notebooks or something that makes using tags easier. I love EN, particuarly the Mac version. But I miss the easy hierarchical grouping of notes that OneNote allows through sub-notebooks. It's more logical for my rather limited mind that still thinks in terms of paper.

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It's interesting how different people think. The one great thing Evernote does for me is to provide one 'box' for everything. I don't need to think about the correct place to put a note I just dump it in with a few key words and forget it. That's why an acurate search is so important to me. I'm one of those guys who dumps everything on his desk and then struggles to find it afterwards. It's not that I don't like to be organised it's just that I can't remeber all the place that I organise to- lol! I end up losing something because I might file a legal accounting document in the legal folder or in the accounting folder depending how my brain is functioning (or not) at the time!

- Not really sure why I needed to share my two penneth lol !!!- I guess it's because that is why I'm so taken with Evernote. It promises to allow me to dump it and forget it until I need it next without any structure. - Totally understand that well-organised folks would like more structure though and I agree that having both would appeal to a more diverse userbase.

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I have been searching for a replacement for Google Notebook (RIP...) and have started using evernote. I LOVE the integration across platforms and cloud. However one thing i really miss from Google Notebook is the ability to add note sections within notebooks.

Although Evernote appears to be search heavy, i like to browse my notes sometimes when I am not looking for something specific. Sections helped me keep a visual organization and my notes neat. Ideally I would want to add sections and move notes into them, as well as leave notes, in a notebook without having to put them in a section (one thing onenote won't let you do). Perhaps the best way to allow users to organize their notes is make notebooks like system folders (ie. they could contain notes, folders or sections, and shortcuts to other locations).

Anyone agree? :)

- Orian

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Welcome to the board. If you do any searching through the forum, you'll find several discussions on this topic, e.g., subnotebooks, hierarchy of notebooks, etc. etc.

Bottom line: several of us have asked for it quite vehemently. And have been told in no uncertain terms "no, use the damn tags", or something to that effect. If you can't deal with a flat (alphabetical) list of notebooks, you'd be better off finding another product. Sigh.

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I don't think it is that they are "better", but they are probably easier to program. Aside from that, tags are more flexible because if you put something in a folder it can only physically BE in one folder. But if you tag something you can tag it with many tags which overlap like venn diagrams. I guess it is just a different way of thinking about things. I like the idea of sub folders too, but I am going to do my best to find the good in the organizational system I am presented with here.

Maybe a way to handle it would be to do an outline of the types of folders you would put things into if you were going to give them a physical "home" folder. You could create titles for those folders, which would then become tags.

You could keep the outline in one Note and adjust it as you find the need to create additional "folder tags" You could even make each of these tags begin with the letters "FT" to distinguish them from regular tags. An example would be "FT-Taxes" Then any of your notes within that folder could also be tagged with additional tags that could be used across any of your "folders".

This way you could have a virtual folder system using tags.

Just an idea.

Terri

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I was thinking about using the nesting of tags to accomplish what I did with subsections. I could have a tag called travel with subtags of locations. I think I could then filter by tags and see all travel with a particular location. Which is basically the functionalty I wanted anyway.

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Just bear in mind that the hierarchy you see on the screen has no meaning. For example, if you have a tag hierarchy like this:

-location

...-paris

...-rome

...-sydney

You're good if you just want to see the notes from paris - you could do a search like tag:paris. But if you want to see all travel notes, you cannot do tag:location, because that will just find you the notes in the location tag, not in any of its children. There is no automatic way to get a note categorized with its parent or child tags either.

I can't remember who, but someone on the board has a good system for dealing with this lack of semantics in the tag hierarchy by naming his tags like this:

-location

...-location.paris

...-loation.rome

...-location.sydney

Then, you could search for tag:location.paris or tag:location.* and find either paris or all travel notes. It's a good hack, but it's ugly, and it requires you to remember how you named stuff. I try it for a couple of my tags, but it hasn't really caught on for me yet.

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I too am feeling a bit left out when I realized Evernote did not have subnotebooks/subfolders. I sincerely hope this feature is bumped way up in the priority level for the developers. To me Folders and Tags server 2 very different purposes in information architecture. Tags describe the content of an object individually. Folders describe the grouping of an object with its peers. While folder groupings can and often need to be hierarchical, tag vocabularies are almost always unordered. Both organizational systems can be used individually and complimentary, and both will lose their usefulness if not maintained (bit rot).

To put it simply: Tags let me Filter, Folders let me browse.

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The lack of subnotebooks continues to be my biggest disappointment in Evernote. I've been following this program since it first came out, and have tried to make it my primary note taking program. However, the lack of a multi-layer organizational system (folders/sub-notebooks/sub-notes) is a big enough problem for me that I keep going back to OneNote.

I do love this program. The ability to use it on multiple platforms (windows, mac, iphone) and automatically sync your notes between them is fantastic. I believe this is Evernote's strongest feature. Furthermore, I'm a firm believer in the need for a tagging system and good searching capabilities in a note program. However, I find searching and the use of tags to only be useful some of the time. Other times, you just need the ability to organize all of your notes in something other than a simple one-level structure.

Looking at all the requests for folders/sub-notebooks on this forum, and the admins' responses, it appears that this is a relatively low priority feature, which is too bad, because I would be more than willing to spend some money on Evernote if such a feature would be implemented. Until then, I'm stuck with OneNote (which I've already spent a lot of money on for 2003 then the 2007 version) and its inability to easily sync and use across different platforms (it's possible, just not nearly as easy and elegant as Evernote). On the plus side, a couple of days ago it was announced that someone is working on a OneNote application for the iphone (not just concept, they are supposedly soliciting beta testers in the next couple of days), which would definitely help on the sync aspect.

My plea to Evernote - please seriously consider implementing folders/sub-notebooks.

Thanks

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I also need this feature. Desperately. Tags alone don't work for me.

I think tags don't give the kind of organizing that folders provide.

When you search by tags, you know the tag you are searching for...because you know what kind of content you need, and the tags describe it. but what if you don't know what content you want?

Sometimes you navigate a hierarchy of subjects you previous entered and you end up finding what you want. You go by levels of a reduced number of options and that makes it fast to browse.

Currently, if I tag all my notes I will end up with so many, but so many different tags on the list on the sidebar that I'll be scrolling forever to find what I want sometimes.

One thing that might be easy to do and could REALLY help people who want folders would be an option to restrict the tags available in the tags list of the sidebar to those that exist in the currently visible notes.

For example, if I select notebook "Personal", the list of tags would only display the tags used in personal notes, hiding all the tags used in my other notes in the notebooks "Work A", "Work B", etc.

Then, if i add the tag [Home], it would only display the tags used in notes inside the notebook Home and with the tag [Home].

That will help all users navigate using tags, and provides kind of a tags/foldering hybrid system to those who prefer the folder hierarchy, if they want.

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Guy's I use One Note, and like alot of other folks, am looking to move completely off to Evernote. And, I too use the section/subsection model that I learned way back in school (while dodging dinosaurs) and would like to have that model availble to me in Evernote. The hierarchies are important to me, and I could use tags to handle this -- but it would be nice if the tag hiearchies would expand and collapse...

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I echo this request, I can give several examples of why it would be useful to me:

Example 1: School

I would like to have a folder called School, a subfolder called Accounting, and then I could have 5 notebooks in that folder...one for Chapter/homework notes, One for Syllabus/Misc. course Info, One for Misc. web clippings and other information that relate to my subject.

Example 2: Work

I would want on Notebook to be just for meeting notes, and each note would be a different meeting. Another folder would be for Deliverables or actions still needed, another would be for general notes, etc.

Example 3: Receipts.

I scan every receipt and then throw the hard copy away. I moved to Evernote because I love the idea of OCR being done automatically and no mater what platform I'm on, or browser, I have access to everything. But when I'm on my iPhone, I do not want to see the thousands of receipts I might have in my account. I don't want to archive this folder, because again, I love the idea of having access to this information from anywhere.

I came across an article from another Evernote user named Kent Newsome with the same request as ours in this forum, so I copied his URL below. I think the article really hits home for what we would like to see.

http://74.125.113.132/search?q=cache:o- ... clnk&gl=us

Thank you Evernote for such a wonderful product!

John Pope

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pope22192,

Your link is bad. Can you fix it please? Or just paste the URL?

Thanks

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This is the most important feature that absolutely HAS to be implemented! Time and time again I try to use Evernote 3 to do my GTD and keep snippets/notes but the lack of sub-folders or hierarchical notebooks is driving me crazy as a lot of info I collect is project based and I like to keep my projects and supporting materials in separate folders for easy browsing. Tags a great for search and filtering but I never liked them as a primary means of organization.

Evernote 2 was almost perfect regarding these aspects. We didn't have online version and other features. But it was a pleasure to work with and you could organize content in a ways that were very flexible...

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Time and time again I try to use Evernote 3 to do my GTD and keep snippets/notes but the lack of sub-folders or hierarchical notebooks is driving me crazy as a lot of info I collect is project based and I like to keep my projects and supporting materials in separate folders for easy browsing.

...and I use Evernote for GTD and find it perfect. I fail to see where sub-folders or sub-notebooks would be useful to me. I use Evernote because it's simple. It reminds me a lot of 37signals and their products. More features and complexity isn't necessarily better.

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Hi

You guys have done some wonderful improvements to all platforms lately...(I use Mac, windows, web, iphone)...kudos!

I would like to stoke the fire so to speak about sub-notebooks, or merging 2 notebooks keeping them differentiated within one main notebook. I use Evernote for school, work, inspirations, personal reminders, etc...When I first started using Evernote one notebook worked for each school term. As time progresses, I am relying more and more on the cross platform usage of Evernote. Now it is only 1 month into the term and my notebook labeled Fall 2009 is a jumbled mess. If I split it up, I've got notebooks spanning the left side of my screen. Then I can't see the tags. I am an architecture student and have found Evernote fabulous for cross referencing research I have done in prior school terms (work smarter not harder). However, my mind has its own system which includes sub notebooks not tags (well most of the time). It would be a huge HUGE HUGE improvement/help to add sub notebooks.

Thank you for the new addition of Reqall - that rocks!

Also an idea for your feature month series in the blog: how students really use Evernote. Maybe other students have figured out something I could put into use :lol:)

Thanks for a great service and constant attention to making it over and above!

Wendy

:D

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I'll add to that.

Subnotebooks is the only thing stopping me from paying for the service; as soon as that's implemented, bam, I'll be a paying subscriber. But as it is now, it's not useful enough for me to use.

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...and I use Evernote for GTD and find it perfect. I fail to see where sub-folders or sub-notebooks would be useful to me. I use Evernote because it's simple. It reminds me a lot of 37signals and their products. More features and complexity isn't necessarily better.

I'm not advocating for sub-folders or sub-notebooks against tags. I think they are complimentary. Tags are fantastic for topics, but sometimes information needs more structure (think of libraries - they use tagging AND categorization).

Featurewise, sub-folders or sub-notebooks will not result in added complexity, as people who only use tags and finds them sufficient can continue to use their Evenote this way and it will still be simple (just forget about folders). E.g. we now have sub-tags. Does it result in more complexity? BUT for people who prefer to use only folders/subfolders or a combination of tagging and folders/subfolders it would be very important.

Regarding GTD, a simple example, for every project I like to have my supported materials ready and accessible with just a couple of clicks. In Evernote 2 I had a sub-folder Support materials for each of my projects, containing notes and stuff for the project. You can do it with tags, of course, but if you have 30 projects or more, and just want to see support materials for a certain project, you will either have LOTS of tags or LOTS of notebooks or just complete mess of everything... And, believe me, deciding which tags and notebooks to select to be able to see you next actions in a certain context for a certain project, based on the present system of tags is everything but simple (the same goes for the saved searches, which can help to make a process faster, but result in more clutter).

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I agree that sub-notebooks would be a great plus. I don't have much more to say than what has already been said. I just wanted to add my vote to the tally.

p.s. make sure you make the notebooks and sub-notebooks available on the Window's Mobile version!!

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I want to throw in another vote for having folders/subfolders. Let me give you a use case that might explain one need:

Say the user is using Evernote to track daily tasks. Not as a task list, but a listing of what they've done all day, every day. A running diary of office conversations, work tickets worked on, project tasks worked on, meeting notes, etc. And, say the user is trying to organize these by having a separate notebook for each week. Basically each week's notebook might contain 5+ notes (one for each day).

After 20-30 weeks the number of notebooks gets quite long. So, why not have the ability to, say, place each weeks notebook into a folder for that month. Going further, the user might then place those monthly folders into a quarterly folder, with the quarterly folders being placed inside a yearly folder. This keeps the notebook list from getting overly cluttered, and the search function, or tagging, could still be utilized for finding notes on specific things.

Scenario B:

You are organizing a development project, with a root project folder. You could then have a subfolder for 'requirements' containing notes for focus groups, usability studies, diagrams, etc. You could have a subfolder for code snippets and blog urls relating to the project. You could have a subfolder with notebooks for each QA team member, collecting notes on testing.

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iEach of your scenarios can be easily accomplished by using the tools currently in EN (notebooks, tags, keywords, creation dates, titles, etc.) If I want to insure I'll be able to sort notes by a date, I'll preface the title with YYYYMMDD of the significant date. IE I keep entries that are tagged "Journal" and the title starts out YYYYMMDD. I may also tag the note work, family, personal, etc. If I want to look at all journal entries, I do search on the tag Journal & sort by title. If I want to reduce those entries to those strictly related to work, I can add in the tag "work" and sort by title. If it's a search you do often, you can make it a saved search.

Once you have very many notes (I currently have over 9800), folders & sub folders only make it more difficult to find things. Tags give you greater flexibility.

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I have started using ScanSnap to digitise all my work paperwork. My accounts run 1st September to 31st August. Without subfolders how do I organise things so I can point the accountant at just the relevant paperwork for the business? Early days with scansnap so wanna get things right from the start ;-)

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I have started using ScanSnap to digitise all my work paperwork. My accounts run 1st September to 31st August. Without subfolders how do I organise things so I can point the accountant at just the relevant paperwork for the business? Early days with scansnap so wanna get things right from the start ;-)

I don't use Scansnap, so can't speak directly to it. But if it were me, I'd create a notebook for "current bills". All my scans (of bills) for the current month would go into that notebook. I would also preface each note title with the date the expense was incurred in YYYYMMDD format. I like this format b/c when you sort on title, notes show up chronologically. Once you close the month, you could then assign a tag (IE 200912) by selecting all the notes for that period & adding that tag & possibly a tag for 2009QTR01 so you could search on the expenses for a particular quarter. Then I would move them to the "general" notebook. And of course, there are a few days each month where you're receiving bills from the current month as well as the month before. Again, this is when the YYYYMMDD format of "date expense incurred" is helpful, when you want to move the prior month's expenses from the current month's folder & assign whatever tags you want to assign to them.

Another option may be to have 12 notebooks. One for each month of your current fiscal year. You could even set up another 12 for prior fiscal year. Eventually, (if it were me), I'd move everything into a single notebook with tags to be able to find the expenses incurred in the various fiscal periods/years. Since I've never done this, I'd start out this way & see how it worked for me. You may find that another option works better for you.

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While I see the points made here about being able to use tags instead of sub-notebooks/folders ... it does seem more logical to use sub-notebooks/folders when you have very specific items you want to group together.

Here is my example.

I am a graphic and web designer and I have multiple clients.

I have a very organized system on my PC of folders segmented into subfolders.

i.e. = X:/Aim/Clients/ClientName/.Notes

/Final

/WIP (works in progress)

I would prefer the ability to organize my Evernotes the same way.

I don't see why Evernote wants to force me to adapt to THEIR system of organization if my system works well for me.

It's MY product and I'm a Premium member ... it should do what I want it to, the way I want it to.

It shouldn't be too difficult to program for sub-notebooks (sub-folders) since I believe every computer system on the planet organizes that way.

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i agree - please add folders. everything works with folders - windows, DOS, FTP, info select, microsoft project, iPhone except the stupid ipod section) - please allow us to organize in a tree structure so i can put things where they belong - why do i need to see my list of contacts at the same level as my todo list all mixed together? i understand tags but why tag when you don't need to search all the time? i want to browse to my sections and update my notes, being search centric is sometimes a liability - like for people who can't spell! thanks

brad

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why do i need to see my list of contacts at the same level as my todo list all mixed together?

You don't. Use tags & saved searches.

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give me an example of how tags emulate folders to organize items into a hierarchical structure so that when no filters are on i can see my high evel topics displayed on the top level and no others?

heres an example. i download all of my web orders every month and place them in a folder called orders-2009 - how can i do this with tags - keep them separate from other items and show me visually if i am missing a month because they stay in date order while the rest if the database is in item name order?

basically like file folders i need the details to hide away in their folders until i search for them or navigate to that folder, and this system seems like all of your papers are just in a big pile in the middle of the floor.

this will help me understand - thanks

brad

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give me an example of how tags emulate folders to organize items into a hierarchical structure so that when no filters are on i can see my high evel topics displayed on the top level and no others?

heres an example. i download all of my web orders every month and place them in a folder called orders-2009 - how can i do this with tags - keep them separate from other items and show me visually if i am missing a month because they stay in date order while the rest if the database is in item name order?

You create a tag called orders-2009. You can even create a temporary notebook like I mentioned here:http://forum.evernote.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=10057&p=53894&hilit=prior+year#p53894

As I said before, I think you should spend some time reading the threads to familiarize yourself with how EN works.

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ok - so you are saying i should create hundreds of notebooks for each need, i'm assuming that will perform ok.

is it possible to nest them inside each other - like

business > product > sales records > 2009 >march

i have been searching the forums as i start but cannot find a tutorial on nested tags for folder junkies - you seem to have mastered it - any advice is appreciated, thanks.

brad

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You may have up to 10,000 tags in your account, and you may organize them into arbitrary hierarchies.

Ultimately, tags are just a tool to make it easier to find your notes later. I wouldn't spend 20 hours organizing your notes into tag hierarchies just to save 15 minutes later in helping you search for your notes. You may find that a simpler organizational scheme may be enough, given the power of the dynamic searching/filtering tools in Evernote (searching by word, dates, locations, contents, etc.).

The Internet has billions of web pages in it, but I can find the right one pretty quickly via Google's single text box without pre-organizing the web into a hierarchy.

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ok - so you are saying i should create hundreds of notebooks for each need, i'm assuming that will perform ok.

is it possible to nest them inside each other - like

business > product > sales records > 2009 >march

i have been searching the forums as i start but cannot find a tutorial on nested tags for folder junkies - you seem to have mastered it - any advice is appreciated, thanks.

brad

You're limited to 100 notebooks. I often use temporary/work notebooks for research/work in progress. Then when it's complete, I add appropriate tags & move the notes to another (more generic) notebook. IE, when researching a new coffee maker, I'll create a temporary folder named _coffeemaker. (The underscore puts it at the top of the list where it's easier to get to.) I'll add all my notes, webpages, screen caps, etc in the folder. Once I'm done with the research, in this case, since I don't want to create a tag for this, I'll prefix the titles with something like "coffee maker selection", then move all the notes to my "Miscellaneous" notebook & delete the _coffeemaker folder. I know I can then recall these notes by searching on "coffee maker selection." I'll even add other words to facilitate a future search. In this case, I may also add the word "choice" to each note (copy/paste) in case I look for "coffee maker choice."

You say you download your web orders. Not knowing how your downloads look or what format or what data is included (all orders in a single CSV file? One file per order? Multiple products per order so that a single order may need to be split up by product?), it's kind of hard to tell you specifically how I'd do it. But I'm guessing since it's all electronic, the business name & the product name is contained in the file & would be easily found with an EN search. If your downloads contain only orders for a single month, you could change the title to (or prefix it with) Business Name - Product - Sales Records - 200903 (I would use this date format b/c then when you sort by title, it will arrange them chronologically.) BUT...I don't think you'd even have to add the business name & product name, since I'd think that's already included in your download...

If the file contains records for multiple months, you could create a notebook named 200912 and 201001 and a main order notebook simply titled "orders." Put each order in the appropriate notebook. Once you know you've got all of Dec 2009 orders downloaded, tag them as Sales Records 200912 & move them to the "main" order file & delete the 200912 notebook. Keep adding newly downloaded web orders to the 201001 notebook until they are all in & then tag them Sales Records 201001, move them to the "main" order file & delete the 201001 notebook. Then if you want to see the sales records for 200912 in May of 2010, just go to the "orders" notebook & search on the tag of Sales Records 200912. You can then sort by title or date created.

I hope this makes sense. And as I said, not knowing more about what your downloaded info contains or how it's presented, these are just some suggestions.

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engberg,

yes it does not pay to organize too much - unless you need the information to make sense while browsing.

it sounds like you are saying that every sentence in a word processing document can be in a random order as long as you have a search engine to help you find the sentence you want.

thats great if you want a sentence, but what if you want to read the entire document start to finish by browsing the heirarchy (table of contents)? what if you don't know exactly what you are looking for? what if you know the general area but not the specific search terms? what if a search comes up with too many matches? subfolders solve all of these issues.

i don't agree on the google/web analogy because the next time you search the information may change - the web is dynamic, my information is personal and only i change it, so i like to know where it is exactly so i can jump right to the proper spot when the time comes. This is why i'm having trouble understanding the rigidness of evernote, and why a simple concept like subfolders to tuck items away in their proper place is so unknown.

seems to me you have not decided if you are random or organized information manager. if you are organized - you need folders so we can organize these notes into places where like things stay together, and then use the powerful search when we are looking across all items. if you are random, let us move items anywhere we want to and don't sort them automatically - and again we can use the search or browse as we choose.

burgers,

so your Miscellaneous notebook contains 100 entries for coffeemaker that you need to scroll thru to look at any one topic. you must also bypass 100 coffeemaker notes to get to the next section under Miscellaneous, correct? so the more items you create, the more unweildy your Miscellaneous folder becomes?

see, i have 7821 notes in probably 300 nested folders currently i am attempting to port to evernote, and i just can't see how randomly throwing them into the pile makes sense when they go together like children.

yes all of my orders each month are in a single CSV file download. items and all that does not matter, as this data is used for searching customer names and order ID's only. however i browse it each month to make sure i have not missed a month.

if you create huge long note titles as you suggest your data gets harder to manage as words fall off the right of the screen and more data equals more matches which compounds the problem.

but i do see how you are trying to make a virtual folder from a tag, i still need to find out more about nested tags however, but thats a seperate post, thanks

brad

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burgers,

so your Miscellaneous notebook contains 100 entries for coffeemaker that you need to scroll thru to look at any one topic. you must also bypass 100 coffeemaker notes to get to the next section under Miscellaneous, correct?

No. I have over 10,800 notes in EN. I just now selected ALL notebooks (all 10,800+ notes) and did a search on "coffee maker selection" (in quotes, so it only finds notes with the words "coffee maker selection" together rather than the word coffee, the word maker and the word selection) and the results pane showed the TWO (only TWO) notes pertaining to my coffee maker selection.

Another example is that I wanted to find the receipt where I'd purchased Orb for the iPhone. (I archive my emails in EN.) Again, I selected ALL notebooks & searched on the words iTunes and orb (not in quotes.) Only THREE notes showed up in the results pane. So I browsed all three & quickly found the one I needed.

To reiterate, both searches included ALL notes, so I didn't even select a specific notebook. Nor did I even use a tag, in either of the above cases. Both searches quickly found (within seconds) the 2 or 3 notes that matched my search criteria out of the 10,800+ notes in my database. In the case of the receipt, another ~30 second browse through the three resultant notes yielded the ONE note that I was looking for.

Yet another example (when looking for an entry you're not sure about) is my journal/diary entries. I may make a journal/diary entry about looking for furniture for my mother. I may stick that into the "Mother" notebook or the "Journal" notebook. An entry noting that I changed the a/c filters today may go into the "House" notebook. An entry noting I gave the dogs their heartworm medicine may go into the "Pets" notebook. But in all cases, I'll definitely tag the notes with Journal. If I want to browse my journal/diary entries, I search ALL notebooks with the tag of Journal. (I have this as a saved search.) I then will either sort by date created or title and browse away through the numerous entries.

If I wanted to find only journal entries pertaining to Mother, the house or the pets, I can then go to the "Mother", "House" or "Pets" notebook & search on the Journal tag. I could just as easily add a tag to the furniture search note of "Mother" (instead of having a "Mother" notebook), add a tag to the a/c filter note of "House" (instead of having a "House" notebook") and a tag to the heartworm note of "Pets" (instead of having a "Pets" notebook) and plop all three notes into the "Miscellaneous" notebook. Adding the second tag of "Mother", "House" or "pets" to the search on the Journal tag would yield the EXACT SAME RESULTS in the results pane as using the three notebooks and only the journal tag. But I haven't completely gotten away from using notebooks. :( But guess what, this yields the same results as if I had a parent notebook of "Journal/diary" with sub notebooks of "Mother", "House" & "Pets." :D

To take it a step further, let's say I wanted a parent notebook of "Journal/diary", a sub notebook of "pets" and pets subdivided by pet name. To do this in EN, in this case, I wouldn't use any additional tags, I'd just make sure the pet's name was in the note. (Which it probably would be anyway, since the note may be "Monty, rabies shot today" or "Monty treated for ear infection.") So if I wanted to find only the journal entries pertaining to our dog Monty, I'd simply search on the tags "Journal/diary" and "Pets" & add a search term of "Monty." I probably don't need to add the tag/notebook of "Pets" in this case unless we knew someone named "Monty" and there were journal entries talking about him. Adding the "Pets" tag/notebook omits the journal entries referring to the person named Monty. And the notes displayed in the results pane are exactly what would be displayed if I were using sub notebooks like this:

Journal/diary --> Pets --> Monty

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that helps - so note titles, tags and making multiple notes into a single note are the keys to your organization. i archive my emails as well - is there a tag for incoming email so it goes in it's own notebook?

i'm stating to see how business and personal and email could each be different notebooks and it seems long note names are the key to finding those entries.

still wish it were easier to prioritize items though rather than having to rename them "001 " and such.

thanks

brad

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that helps - so note titles, tags and making multiple notes into a single note are the keys to your organization. i archive my emails as well - is there a tag for incoming email so it goes in it's own notebook?

i'm stating to see how business and personal and email could each be different notebooks and it seems long note names are the key to finding those entries.

still wish it were easier to prioritize items though rather than having to rename them "001 " and such.

thanks

brad

I do often merge notes into one, but it's not a requirement. The search on "coffee maker selection" only happened to have two results (I was looking at two different models of a Bunn.) But it could just as easily had many results with titles like Bunn BXW, another titled Bunn GRXW, another titled Keurig B40, another titled Keurig B60, another titled Keurig B70, etc.

I don't understand why you think you need to prioritize by naming 001, etc. (Example?) The only time I ever do that is when I have similar notes but the difference between them is so minute, that it's hard to find something significant about each note so I may title them "mattress 01", "mattress 02" and "mattress 03." Most times, I could even combine them into a single note titled "mattress." But if they are images or screen caps & I want to see them on my iPhone (IE, again more shopping research I may want to reference when out shopping for a big ticket item), I like to keep them separate in case calling up a very large note would wig out my iPhone. I can't say it would do this, so this could be an unfounded fear. :?

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well how can you have a todo list without high priority items that are at the top of the list? hence the numbering system. so i need a number for each of the high priority todo items and lower numbers for the other items in descending order since i have no folder to put these items in based on how important they are.

brad

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odd - never occurred to me the repository where you keep all of your information would not work as your todo list manager - you keep everything else there, why not this? thought that was the main reason for all this sync activity between machines.

brad

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odd - never occurred to me the repository where you keep all of your information would not work as your todo list manager - you keep everything else there, why not this? thought that was the main reason for all this sync activity between machines.

brad

Following the GTD philosophy, I've always found that Evernote was more suited to being my reference system, not my contexts. In other words, I don't think of it as my "todo list", but rather a kick-butt filing cabinet.

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Could not agree with this feature request more. We need subnotebooks yesterday. This is an absolutely baffling omission from an otherwise great product.

I had a whole series of "2009" notebooks that were labeled as such so they would be at the top of my list. Well, now that I've started a series of 2010 notebooks, they fall beneath the 2009 ones. I've had to go and rename all my old notebooks so they're not at the top of the list. I would much rather move them to an "archived 2009" folder, and not have to do that, and be able to keep them grouped together for easy reference. I now have about 25 notebooks, so my list is getting out of control. I need to nest some of those into logical containers to clean up my sidebar.

Tags DO NOT get the job done. We need hierarchy.

Cultured Code, maker of Things has a similar issue with their task management software in that they will not add sub-projects. But they at least added "Areas of Responsibility" as a way to group projects, and this has gone a long way to adding some hierarchy.

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it sounds like you are saying that every sentence in a word processing document can be in a random order as long as you have a search engine to help you find the sentence you want.

thats great if you want a sentence, but what if you want to read the entire document start to finish by browsing the heirarchy (table of contents)? what if you don't know exactly what you are looking for? what if you know the general area but not the specific search terms? what if a search comes up with too many matches? subfolders solve all of these issues.

i don't agree on the google/web analogy because the next time you search the information may change - the web is dynamic, my information is personal and only i change it, so i like to know where it is exactly so i can jump right to the proper spot when the time comes. This is why i'm having trouble understanding the rigidness of evernote, and why a simple concept like subfolders to tuck items away in their proper place is so unknown.

seems to me you have not decided if you are random or organized information manager. if you are organized - you need folders so we can organize these notes into places where like things stay together, and then use the powerful search when we are looking across all items. if you are random, let us move items anywhere we want to and don't sort them automatically - and again we can use the search or browse as we choose.

I couldn't agree more. This whole discussion reminds me of when Steve Jobs proclaimed that folders would be irrelevant after Spotlight was introduced in Tiger, which of course was nonsense.

The bottom line is that we need both - Hierarchy and Search. For the reason well-stated above that we cannot always remember the search terms.

And if there really are no sub-notebooks planned, and tags really are going to be the only way to organize notes, then there should be a new UI for managing them, such as a HUD. Managing them in the sidebar is just awful, especially if you have as many as I do. I am going to try and reduce the number of tags I have as I have been creating them wily-nilly, but again, with sub-folders, it wouldn't be necessary to limit them.

Lack of subfolders seems utterly bizarre to me, and I'm going to reconsider my Premium subscription as I'm not sure how much more data I want to put into a flat system.

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Following the GTD philosophy, I've always found that Evernote was more suited to being my reference system, not my contexts. In other words, I don't think of it as my "todo list", but rather a kick-butt filing cabinet.

Totally agree - I use Evernote to clip all kinds of stuff and even manage some documents. I did try the Evernote GTD pseudo-functionality, but decided it was much too limited. After trying a bunch of different tools, I'm now using Things from Cultured Code. It's not perfect, and the developers are incredibly slow about putting out updates (nothing like the crew at Evernote that is constantly improving the apps for all platforms), but it works much better for GTD.

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As a new user, i too am utterly befuddled by the lack of subfolders. You have expressed the usefulness of hierarchical folders very well, and this oversight (though since EN has evidently been aware of the shortcoming for a while, it might be more accurately described as willful blindness to customers' needs) may be a dealbreaker for me.

i can't imagine subfolders represent much of a hurdle technically for EN, and those that insist on a flat structure can simply not use a subfolder feature and live happily ever after. In that light, it would seem some explananation by EN would be in order...

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Another vote for subnotebooks. I am a OneNote fan and I could really live without all the other extras in OneNote if this one feature were present in Evernote. My imports from OneNote become an unmanagable mess without a proper place to put OneNote sections. Tags are useful but they aren't a replacement. If this feature were put in place I'd be buying licenses for Evernote Premium for everyone in my company and uninstalling OneNote!

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Hi,

Have sub-notebooks (subfolders) been part of a discussion of improving Evernote. I have a lot of references and divided and organized these is sub notebooks. I do not like that they are always visible in my notebook list and would like them to fold out when needed under a notebook.

Philip

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Is it possible for a notebook stack to have another stack within it, i.e. is this a single level folder hierarchy or a multi-level structure?

- Julian

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No, stacks are a single level. If you need a much more complicated hierarchical organizational scheme, we'd recommend using Tags, since you can nest them to any level and have up to 10,000 tags.

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Well, nesting tags is a different thing, because tags don't remember their upper level tag. So you can't have "foobar" inside "foo" and "bar".

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No, stacks are a single level. If you need a much more complicated hierarchical organizational scheme, we'd recommend using Tags, since you can nest them to any level and have up to 10,000 tags.

Thanks. I was just curious really.

When I first came to EN one of my big issues was some way to implement a proper multi-level hierarchy but I've come up with a new way of organising my data that works for me and removes my need for anything more than a single level tag space so I don't think that I'll even use the single level of stacking when it comes to Windows and iDevices.

As jna said though, the fact that "foobar" can't appear under both "foo" and "bar" makes it ugly to implement a proper tag hierarchy even though it is technically possible. The user is left having to disambiguate any tag names that they want to have appear in multiple places in the hierarchy, e.g. "foobar_foo" and "foobar_bar" and the more levels then the worse it can get, e.g. a tag of the form ___ which soon gets very ugly. Allowing the same tag name to appear in multiple places in the tag tree in the UI would be a big step forward. That still leaves people to make sure that, if they tag a note with "foobar", then they also remember to add either the "foo" or the "bar" tag (and any tags for levels in the hierarchy above that) to give the "foobar" tag its full path/context in the hierarchy but at least that's cleaner than forcing tags to be full pathnames as described above.

Luckily this isn't an issue for me anymore but I do feel some sympathy for others that still want a full hierarchy.

- Julian

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Can't help myself; all the discussion about notebook hierarchies in an unstructured, dynamic storage and retrieval system is interesting. Sometimes less is better than more (general search having to be reliable for sure). :(

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It never ceases to amaze me when people who have no intimate knowledge about a particular piece of software profess to know what's easy to implement.

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