Jump to content
  • 418
cswsteve

Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

Idea

Recommended Posts

  • 0
15 hours ago, gazumped said:

<Sigh> So.  Evernote Forum 101:  Evernote (whom I assume you mean by "real people") tend not to respond to individual queries here in this User Forum,  so what you tend to get is responses from actual current users who are using Evernote despite the crippling restriction of a couple of levels of nested folder.  We don't actually find that is a major handicap.  If you do find that this app doesn't do what you need it to do,  maybe you should be looking somewhere else?

What a brilliant response. Why do you even reply? This thread and forum is about improving moving forward not jerks running users off with "maybe you should be looking somewhere else". When you run out of intelligent responses that add to the solution you can just not reply and move on because "if it's not for you..." is about as juvenile a response as you can make, it demonstrates you're out of ideas to contribute so do us all a favor and don't troll treads where people are looking for positive change with your negative infantile responses that you've made 200 times before, its boring.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
12 hours ago, mikefinleyco said:

This thread and forum is about improving moving forward

That's BS
This thread has degenerated into users posting BOOHOO, Evernote's so bad

>>If it is why does it bother you? 

This clutters up my use of the forum; learning to better use the Evernote product, and to help other users

>>How about the ultimate uncluttering for you, ignore this thread.

I participate in all the discussions.  It's an opportunity to learn, and assist users.

Speak your truth quietly and clearly;
and listen to others,
even the dull and the ignorant;
they too have their story. 
Avoid loud and aggressive persons,
they are vexations to the spirit.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 minute ago, DTLow said:

That's BS
This thread is users posting BOOHOO, Evernote's so bad

If it is why does it bother you? Bit too much fanboy? What do you care if it is or isn't? You're the self-appointed protector of evernote?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
9 minutes ago, mikefinleyco said:

What a brilliant response. Why do you even reply? This thread and forum is about improving moving forward not jerks running users off with "maybe you should be looking somewhere else". When you run out of intelligent responses that add to the solution you can just not reply and move on because "if it's not for you..." is about as juvenile a response as you can make, it demonstrates you're out of ideas to contribute so do us all a favor and don't troll treads where people are looking for positive change with your negative infantile responses that you've made 200 times before, its boring.

ditto for you.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 hour ago, mikefinleyco said:

This thread and forum is about improving moving forward not jerks running users off with "maybe you should be looking somewhere else". When you run out of intelligent responses that add to the solution you can just not reply and move on

Moving on is certainly an option, as is putting particular members on 'ignore', which is what I'll be doing for your benefit shortly. For the benefit of the forums, though, you should remember that personal insults and name-calling are expressly forbidden, per the Forum Code of Conduct,  #1. Whatever you may think of me or other folks here personally, you should probably keep out of the forums. And you you may not believe this, I really do hope that Evernote finds a way to please you. Meantime, I'll head back to trying to help other users where I can. Good luck.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 hour ago, IainBev said:

and the way I have ALWAYS worked is to drop something into the relevant 'directory'.

You can emulate directories using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar1624580387_ScreenShot2019-08-05at10_20_49.png.3cca343beb4dd72a2d4663813fcd9932.png

>>One additional level would be great - two would be fantastic.

As you pointed out, notebooks are currently limited to two levels.  
There's a request at the top for additional  levels.  To add your support, use the vote button at the top left corner of the discussion

My request would be for unlimited levels

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
6 minutes ago, IainBev said:

The general consensus of the thread

It's not that anyone here has some kind of vested interest in pushing Tags - the fact is we're all users,  and no-one has any idea of when or whether Evernote will increase the number of levels available.  In the meantime the fact of the matter is that users can either work within the limits of Evernote's existing features,  or look somewhere else to find an app that does fill their need.  My basic principal is always - any method you choose is great if it works for you.  The 'consensus' here is a matter of plain fact - Evernote doesn't 'do' hierarchies - yet.  Maybe they will,  but the company doesn't usually give out their plans in advance!

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 hour ago, IainBev said:

I had hoped that over those years Evernote might have effected this change [for people who don't use tags] but the repeated mantra of 'use tags to do it'  is, as may on here have commented, becoming somewhat tiresome

We tend to repeat certain types the advice because:

  1. Nested notebooks do not exist in Evernote currently: Tags and stacks/notebooks (and Spaces in the business product) are all of the facilities that Evernote has to organize user notes. It would be exceedingly dumb and useless to suggest that someone should use facilities that don't exist.
  2. It's a long thread, and not everyone takes the time to read all -- or even much -- of it.
  3. Some Evernote users don't know that tags can be nested, and can be used in a file system-y way to organize and navigate their notes. Yes, at least in in the Windows application, I can just drop a note on a tag (a facility that should exist in all Evernote platforms).
  4. Giving that advice in no way lessens the effect of other Evernote users' advocacy for nested notebooks. It doesn't lessen the vote total since there's no downvoting (and I'd guess that more than one person who gives out the "try tags" advice has also upvoted the request), nor does it make Evernote forget that there's a demand for them. 
  5. We cannot change Evernote ourselves and have no influence over Evernote's direction than any other user here; the best we can do is to get other users to use Evernote -- as it exists --  better.

So sorry that it's tiresome to you., but it's all just practical advice, and in no way is it meant to rain on your day; in fact, it's not intended for you, since you've already concluded that tags don't work for you.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
6 hours ago, jefito said:

 putting particular members on 'ignore', which is what I'll be doing for your benefit shortly.

Thank you very much, couldn't ask for a better outcome. One less person endlessly replying to new users voicing their desire to have nested notebooks, with the same thing over and over again.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
8 hours ago, DTLow said:

That's BS
This thread has degenerated into users posting BOOHOO, Evernote's so bad

>>If it is why does it bother you? 

This clutters up my use of the forum; learning to better use the Evernote product, and to help other users

 

Are you serious? How about the ultimate uncluttering for you, ignore this thread. It's 1400 posts about the same thing, what exactly is your reason for ever looking at it? 

If it clutters your day, simply don't open it. Believe me nobody is going to miss you cutting and pasting the same replies to every new user which is -"use tags, go use something else..."

You ignore this thread, your life becomes less cluttered, everybody is saved from yet another canned reply. Win/Win/Win

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I have complex projects with multiple layers of subtasks and categories. Please can we have the ability to stack deeper than 2 levels. I would really like subfolder capability.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Just like the file system, the notebook in most case will have nested tree structure. 

Only having one level of notebook doesn't seem to be efficient for complicated noting process. 

New features like creating folder inside the notebook will be a great add-in to the notebook. 

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 8/18/2008 at 2:37 AM, engberg said:

We don't have sub-notebooks, but you can organize tags into a hierarchy. This may allow you to set up the organizational scheme you're looking for.

Hi Engberg!
Tags are great, but the are bit different:

1. Notebooks/folders are much more familiar for all the desktop computer users, because we all know folders and subfolders well. So multilevel notebooks hierarchy is kind of "essential" notes organazing.

2. If I am within a notebook, creating a new note will assign it to this notebook with no any extra actions. With tags, I shoud not forget to assign tag to the note to find it later.

P.S. BTW, is there an option to find "all notes without any tags" or "all notes without a specific tag"? This is to find such "forgotten notes" from (2)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 8/30/2019 at 4:42 AM, gazumped said:

BTW, is there an option to find "all notes without any tags" or "all notes without a specific tag"? This is to find such "forgotten notes" from (2)

Search   -tag:*      to find notes with no tags

For "forgotten notes" with missing notebook assignment, I search    notebook:Inbox    (my  default notebook)

>>Notebooks/folders are much more familiar for all the desktop computer users

From desktop computer use, I'm familiar with "folder" ; not notebook

Regardless of the name folder/notebook/tag, I'm able to work with  the product

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
3 hours ago, srideou said:

The two main reasons why I am currently looking to replace EV with another solution are:
1. Their refusal to take on this very popular and very longstanding sub-stacks request—or at least admit that they can't do so (if that's the case) rather than try to pretend it isn't a desirable feature.
2. Their automatic, irreversible and non-refundable subscription renewals, which may be legal but which nevertheless create a sketchy and exploitative vibe. It's not that I would have said "no" so far if they'd asked me to renew—it's just that I would have liked to have been asked.

Hi.  Please read the thread for details,  but 

  1. Evernote have said that implementing a notebook hierarchy is not within the scope of the current architecture of the database,  but they are in process of changing that.  Given that 250M people will be unhappy if anything breaks,  they're probably taking some care not to mess that up.
  2. If you decide at any stage not to renew your subscription you are completely in charge of upgrading,  downgrading or cancelling at any time.  Go to https://www.evernote.com/Settings.action and choose "manage subscription" .  Evernote do not 'ask' every subscriber whether they wish to renew - at least partly because even the lesser (than 250M) number of actual subscribers would require some millions of emails to be sent each year - around 50,000 per day.  If they were expected to deal with queries arising from that volume of customer contact,  there wouldn't be time to do anything else - like redesign that hierarchy...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
4 hours ago, srideou said:

this very popular and very longstanding sub-stacks request

This request is for nested notebooks (sub-notebooks), not sub-stacks.

Sub-Stacks would be a problem because there's no actual stack object

>>or at least admit that they can't do so (if that's the case)

Evernote has demonstrated hierarchy implementation with the Tags feature. It's actually a simple database change, but the UI requires extensive work

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

It would be outstanding if I could add a third-level stack organization in my Evernote Premium notebook organization. My specific use case is for independent information for files related to each project, and business process without getting too detailed. I'm certain this would be popular as more organization offers more productivity. 

Currently I can only create a notebook and drag it into another notebook, so perhaps this feature request is for stacks within stacks. 

Thanks

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 9/6/2019 at 2:24 PM, Avi Lambert said:

My specific use case is for independent information for files related to each project 

Edit: Someone has merged the stacks discussion with the notebook discussion

I use tags to identify notes related to each project1106376030_ScreenShot2019-09-06at14_58_37.png.8b8954e6728d50d8a08595622ad6d56a.png

 

>>I'm certain this would be popular as more organization offers more productivity. 

Tags offer unlimited levels.

They are the primary Evernote tool for organization

 

>>this feature request is for stacks within stacks.

This is difficult to do because there is no actual stack object.

A more reasonable request is for hierarchy to be added to the notebook object.  This has been requested in the discussion linked below

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Thanks, Steve, I noticed the other post and saw the depth of posts on it. Apologies for the duplication. Regarding tags, that's not a good use case from my perspective for what I'm using. I used tags before, and it became far too complex and overly un-organized. 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Hi Engberg, thanks for your feedback. But again, the use-case I am looking for simply does not work for tags.

Tags are not Notebooks.

Notebooks work much better for my use case, specifically because of the actions that can be used within Evernote with notebooks. More to the point, you can't share an item, idea, picture, our audio to a tag, in the same way you can to a notebook. Also, in terms of organization tags are messy, while notebooks are clean, in my view. It is for that reason that I do not find the tag workflow as worthwhile as the notebook workflow. And, from the negative votes on your post, and the length of the comment thread on this post, it would be smart for Evernote to look to implement this in the feature roadmap. 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
35 minutes ago, Avi Lambert said:

Tags are not Notebooks.

As you  posted, Notebooks have special features.  They identify notes as

  • Sync'd/local
  • private/shared
  • offline
  • default (Inbox)

>>Also, in terms of organization tags are messy, while notebooks are clean, in my view.

In terms of organization, notebooks and tags are two fields assigned to a note.  They are interchangeable.

Please explain how field2 is messy, and field1 is clean

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
31 minutes ago, DTLow said:

As you  posted, Notebooks have special features.  They identify notes as

  • Sync'd/local
  • private/shared
  • offline
  • default (Inbox)

>>Also, in terms of organization tags are messy, while notebooks are clean, in my view.

In terms of organization, notebooks and tags are two fields assigned to a note.  They are interchangeable.

Please explain how field2 is messy, and field1 is clean

In reply to your query, the issue is not about field2 or field1. The missing feature is second level organization. The attached image explains was I am looking for, with the OSX/Linux operating system. I have also attached a short of my own Evernote account to show that I use Notebooks primarily and stay away from tags. I have used tags in the past, and I've been using Evernote for over a decade. 

Evernote would do well and be smart to update the Notebook feature for premium and business users. Ian the CEO and the team are more user focused than previously which is good, but the features, long asked for by users like second level notebook organization are still behind what they could be.

 

my-org.png

second-level-stacks.png

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 hour ago, Avi Lambert said:

The missing feature is second level organization.

The request is for unlimited levels (Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks)

We currently have unlimited organization levels with tags; users are asking for the same with notebooks 

>>tags are messy, while notebooks are clean661243210_ScreenShot2019-09-09at12_05_09.png.2ecbda1cf1a5cb0fa0fcc9f6a5d5c0cb.png

Please explain.  I used your screenshop as an example

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Just shared this on Twitter with the goal of increasing the votes up so it will be taken seriously and acted upon. Just used Adobe Cloud and was able to configure third and fourth level folders without trouble. This should not be an issue for the development team IMHO. Share this in your community to get it voted up also. 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
9 hours ago, Avi Lambert said:

Just used Adobe Cloud and was able to configure third and fourth level folders without trouble.

Adobe Cloud uses Folders and Sub-Folders?

Evernote uses Notebooks/Tags; some users in this discussion have problems adjusting to the name switch

We can emulate folders using the trees in the sidebar

  • The notebook tree has 2 levels
  • The tag tree has unlimited levels; I can easily go 4+ levels using tags

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
12 hours ago, Sarabeara said:

Adding my vote. Being able to stack stacks is integral.

I currently have a situation where I want to archive my stacks into one stack and start fresh..   but that's not possible.. and no I don't want to move all the notebooks inside into one stack, the hierarchy that I have is important...

Is there any way we can get this prioritised??

I'd hope it's been mentioned before in this thread,  but just to confirm - Evernote is based on a database layout which was originally designed in a specific way that does not - we've been told by people who work there - allow for a hierarchy of stacks or notebooks.  It would require a redesign of some underlying systems to allow that to be added.  The problem is that Evernote now hosts 250 million (or so) databases in that original format,  and making fundamental changes to the structure is not something that can be done lightly,  or overnight.  Regardless of the number of users who require that style of organisation,  it may simply not be worth it to Evernote to invest heavily in re-engineering the database and running risk of affecting their whole client-base.  Priorities are not involved here - it's like wanting to J-turn a cruise liner - a ship is not set up to make sudden turns and the passengers wouldn't like it if it did.

As to the archiving stacks question - as a subscriber,  you'll be able to switch between accounts on a desktop.  Why not set up your archive(s) in a separate Basic account to get them out of the way? 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
3 hours ago, x9sim9 said:

This is never going to be implemented so its important people arriving at this thread are made aware of this.

You are incorrect.  Evernote has not said that this will 'never' be implemented, nor has anyone else in this thread suggested that. 

Evernote staff have said that through an accident of design this feature is not available at this time.  Future changes may correct that.

Meantime I have an account of around 50,000 notes and an active 'getting things done' system which works very effectively for me based entirely on tags and a database of standard single-level notebooks.  If you are wedded to a system that requires a notebook hierarchy,  then you do need to look for another provider. 

If you are prepared to compromise your principles slightly in order to get Evernote's ease of use,  highly effective search system and multi-platform access,  then  a little experimentation may convince you that this is still a better solution.

Don't just take my word for it...  Steve Dotto likes Evernote too...

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

<Sigh>  There has been - endless - discussion of this topic.  It's not currently available,  and is unlikely to become available in the short term...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
14 hours ago, Anton R said:

I'm missing the possibility to easily create subfolders with a deeper hierachie.

Evernote doesn't support a folder filing methodology
Instead, we get two metadata fields; Notebooks and Tags
imho  This is a superior organization method

Users can emulate folders using the Notebook/Tag trees in the sidebar
The Tag tree supports unlimited levels

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
14 hours ago, Anton R said:

I'm missing the possibility to easily create subfolders with a deeper hierachie.

Mod: Merging to the mother request...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Tags would be workable as folders if they could automatically inherit the heirarchical labels. I mean if people don't want this then it could be toggled.

Otherwise I have to put all those in by hand separated by dashes, which is unwieldy and difficult to remember. If I tag a subfolder in work, I want it in work too.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
2 hours ago, ipicle said:

Tags would be workable as folders if they could automatically inherit the heirarchical labels. I mean if people don't want this then it could be toggled.

Adding search syntax that takes into account tag hierarchy has already been suggested, from me (I could find it, with some effort), at least, somewhere around 8 or 9 years ago. The Windows client has this capability, but it's an all or nothing affair (global setting) rather than a change to the search language, which is what I prefer.

As it happens, though, I don't depend on hierarchical anything in Evernote, except for using a couple of stacks for organization. For me, the fact that a note can be categorized by more than one makes organization a lot easier and more flexible than with nested notebooks. *shrug* Horses for courses...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
3 hours ago, ipicle said:

Tags would be workable as folders if they could automatically inherit the heirarchical labels. I mean if people don't want this then it could be toggled.

Otherwise I have to put all those in by hand separated by dashes, which is unwieldy and difficult to remember. If I tag a subfolder in work, I want it in work too.

We can emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the the sidebar (Windows/Mac)

I'm a fan of indicating hierarchy in the notebook/tag names.   
I usually only type this on setup.      
To use the notebook/tags, I'm selecting from a filtered list

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I fully agree and support this idea. Although we have been asking it for 10 years and nothing changed. 

I have been a veeery long user of evernote, for the last years a premium user. But it has started feeling dated. I briefly experimented with Notion lately, a breath of fresh air that is rapidly changing and improving. Most of the characteristics that I see being asked here, they are already present there or keep getting added by the month.

For the moment they lack a couple of things that Evernote does really well: 

- search function in EN is really top class. Can't be matched yet qua speed and accuracy

- snappy feeling for both desktop and mobile apps (one click better for EN)

- security with 2 step verification

- simplicity (Notion feels a bit complex to master and looks a bit cluttered especially if you are transferring your database from EN). Because of the different structure it would take me quite some work to properly reorganize 1500 notes.

For the time being I am staying with EN but it was a pretty close choice. My advice would be to check some characteristics and try implementing them asap, otherwise I see users flocking away.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

A conversation I had on Reddit shows that the development debt is why we can't have second and third level notebooks. The following post on Reddit in the Evernote forum is added because of the clarity of the response.

I would prefer to stay with Evernote, but with so many openly talking about Notion and moving over to it, Evernote must do something about this before too long, or it will lose business users. Also it would be nice to not get the same catch-all answer "use tags". 
 

 
Quote

 

Second level notebook stuff is probably discouraged not because they hate the idea, but because Evernote's databases are all flat - for any one user, there's a single, flat list of notebooks and a single, flat list of tags. It's why you can't have multiple notebooks with the same name or multiple tags with the same name even if they're in different parts of the "folder tree" - the data actually isn't a folder tree. With tags, they can do some shenanigans, but with notebooks that wouldn't be so easy.

But one level of notebooks is not really enough, so back in the day they added a data field to the notebook database. It's the notebook stack the notebook belongs to.

Notice something? There is no such object in the database as a notebook stack. The UI just groups notebooks with the same "stack" field together. This is why you eg. can't have multiple notebooks with the same name even if they're in different stacks (they're just a flat pile in reality) which is what you'd expect out of a real folder hierarchy, and it also means stacking stacks is pretty much impossible since they don't actually exist as any kind of object you might be able to organize.

So when people understandably ask for some kind of hierarchy - nestable notebooks, stackable stacks, something - well, given the company's new mindset of actually improving their product it may happen someday. But it will be a big, big rebuild under the hood.

These kinds of data structure restrictions pop up all over the place. Why can't you share live views into single pages in OneNote the way you can in Evernote? Well, Evernote has a database for notes and a database for notebooks, so they have single note objects they can manage. A OneNote notebook, it turns out, is a folder on disk that contains subfolders to represent section groups, and .one files to contain section data. The pages themselves are stored in the section files and there is no individual page file to share and permission. You might notice that they could manage sharing permissions for individual section files since they actually exist in the filesystem, and 'lo and behold they happen to be working on sharing single sections.

A lot of the time when devs just ignore requests, it's not because they hate their users or because they're stuffy ivory tower jerks. It's usually that design decisions were made years and years ago (OneNote was released in 2003, before the cloud was much of a thing let alone central to Microsoft, Evernote was released in 2008. They're ancient), sometimes under a time crunch that gets some feature shipped in time but comes to haunt the devs later on when the app isn't as adaptable as it could be. The industry term for this is technical debt, and Evernote among others has a lot. The folders issue is one case of it.

Having a lot of technical debt doesn't mean they can't get rid of it or improve the app, but solving tech debt means a lot of work that is invisible to users before you can even start taking advantage of the new, better structure to start developing new features that the users would see. Some stuff they've already announced like the editor changes they're building now are work in this kind of vein.

The best thing is to keep reminding the company that you're willing to stay, that you want the debt solved and the features implemented. From a company POV, it needs stability and patience. Customer, similar deal, and they have to understand that the architecture work isn't stagnation, it's building a solid foundation and replacing all manner of ugly, finicky hacks.

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 12/17/2019 at 3:22 PM, Avi Lambert said:

A conversation I had on Reddit shows that the development debt is why we can't have second and third level notebooks.

Not clear about "development debt", but I know Evernote has implemented unlimited levels for note organization; check out the Tag field

>Well, Evernote has a database for notes and a database for notebooks ...Evernote's databases are all flat

On my Mac, Note content is not stored in a database; just folders in the OS for each note    
-  as posted, this organization is flat
Note metadata is stored in an SQLite database, in particular two fields; Notebook and Tags   
These fields are indexed and allow for organization of notes into levels   
The tag record includes a parent-tag, allowing for unlimited levels

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

OK... here's an idea.

 

Instead of trying to get Evernote to do this (...with all the reasoning whey it's nigh on impossible)

… why not start from scratch?

Build Evernote as it should have been ( i.e. as many users want it to be) and enable an import rather than an 'update' with a simple set of instructions.

That should / could then populate the 'new' Evernote with all the old content (and set up hierarchies already established, this time as real not faux).

i.e. instead of trying to re forge an existing tool … start again. With all the knowledge and hindsight the development team now have, and listening to the feedback gained from USERS. 

In that way the new Evernote could / should be able both to hold it's users and steal a march on other newer systems?

Just my two pennyworth. 

"they would have to completely re-build it"

So go on then. 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
23 minutes ago, IainBev said:

why not start from scratch?

To start from scratch, export your notes  in HTML format  (Mac/Windows)    
You will then be able io organize your notes into folders;  as many levels as you like

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
12 minutes ago, DTLow said:

To start from scratch, export your notes  in HTML format  (Mac/Windows)    
You will then be able io organize your notes into folders;  as many levels as you like

But that kills the Evernote functionality? You would have to continually sweep Evernote into these directories and manually re-assign... and not have the interface for quick access? Does not sound like a particularly workable solution. Evernote would simply become a harvesting tool... not an access / archive one. If however you could export and then re-import into a new Evernote with a proper hierarchy… that would be worth doing.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
18 hours ago, IainBev said:

OK... here's an idea.

 

Instead of trying to get Evernote to do this (...with all the reasoning whey it's nigh on impossible)

… why not start from scratch?

Build Evernote as it should have been ( i.e. as many users want it to be) and enable an import rather than an 'update' with a simple set of instructions.

That should / could then populate the 'new' Evernote with all the old content (and set up hierarchies already established, this time as real not faux).

i.e. instead of trying to re forge an existing tool … start again. With all the knowledge and hindsight the development team now have, and listening to the feedback gained from USERS. 

In that way the new Evernote could / should be able both to hold it's users and steal a march on other newer systems?

Just my two pennyworth. 

"they would have to completely re-build it"

So go on then. 

There are many reasons why this is not a great idea. For a general overview, see the classic  https://www.joelonsoftware.com/2000/04/06/things-you-should-never-do-part-i/. This doesn't imply that Joel's analysis is completely correct  for all cases-- sometimes a complete rewrite is warranted -- but still, this article frames things a bit. 

Me, I doubt that a complete rebuild would be required, but certainly there'd be a pretty sizable level of effort involved, and right now they'focused on a different large product (https://discussion.evernote.com/forum/306-behind-the-scenes-series/)...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I so much HATE Evernote as a company, for not answering to this really Basic Request, which so much of their competitors offer.

Just make a deeper hierarchy possible for people, that need it. And NO, i can not achieve the same with tags - not in my collaboration/Teamsetting and not in my preference of using, thinking and filing Stuff. 

It would be such a great App, absolutly unbeatable, if they woudl offer some Hierarchy, (and some Functionality in Tables; please look at Notion). And make the Dark Mode for Windows Users already; the Mac Users already got it!

 

As soon, as Notion improves their Android App and implement Handwiriting: i'm out. If nothing changes. And many others time by time for sure also.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
15 hours ago, Andre Doernemann said:

And NO, i can not achieve the same with tags - not in my collaboration/Teamsetting and not in my preference of using, thinking and filing Stuff. 

Please provide some details on your use-case and why it requires Notebooks instead of Tags
afaik  Tags and Notebooks are interchangeable (except for the share/sync/offline thing)

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
8 hours ago, Andre Doernemann said:

I so much HATE Evernote as a company

Life is way too short....

  • Like 1
  • Haha 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
11 hours ago, Andre Doernemann said:

I so much HATE Evernote as a company, for not answering to this really Basic Request, which so much of their competitors offer.

Just make a deeper hierarchy possible for people, that need it. And NO, i can not achieve the same with tags - not in my collaboration/Teamsetting and not in my preference of using, thinking and filing Stuff. 

It would be such a great App, absolutly unbeatable, if they woudl offer some Hierarchy, (and some Functionality in Tables; please look at Notion). And make the Dark Mode for Windows Users already; the Mac Users already got it!

 

As soon, as Notion improves their Android App and implement Handwiriting: i'm out. If nothing changes. And many others time by time for sure also.

Its a case of evernote telling customers what it thinks is best rather than listening to customers, probably why they have had so much financial trouble in the past.

If it helps I ended up moving to nimbus note (which has unlimited folder depth), its not as well polished as evernote but you can actually email the developers directly and participate in its development which is definitely the right direction. If only evernote was the same way 😞

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 5/17/2018 at 3:02 AM, rocketguy said:

A note to Evernote ;)

The lack of this feature is why my company chose Quip over Evernote. And it's why I am finally getting around to moving my personal Evernote content to some other (yet undecided) service.

I've just checked Quip out. It kind of leaves Evernote in the shade, doesn't it. I'm still messing with it but right now I see no reason not to make a move over to it.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 hour ago, kimaldis said:

I've just checked Quip out. It kind of leaves Evernote in the shade, doesn't it. I'm still messing with it but right now I see no reason not to make a move over to it.

Looks like Quip is rather more expensive per user than Evernote.  It's aimed at a business market with spreadsheets and powerpoint-a-like features included.  If you need that type of thing, of course it makes sense to move over. Since I don't have time to road test new apps and Evernote (still) works for me...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

We are talking completely different use cases here.

Quip is an add-on tool for Salesforce-users, to get some document handling, edit and spreadsheet functions added to Salesforce. And secondly it is focused on being teamware, which means it is not created with an individual user in mind.

Prices start at 10$/user/month (with an advertised discount package of 30$/month/first 5 users, but only available with these 5 licenses as a block) plus one probably needs Salesforce. Many functions EN offers are not advertised, so probably they do not exist.

So everybody who wants to test it: Have fun.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
2 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

We are talking completely different use cases here.

Quip is an add-on tool for Salesforce-users, to get some document handling, edit and spreadsheet functions added to Salesforce. And secondly it is focused on being teamware, which means it is not created with an individual user in mind.

Prices start at 10$/user/month (with an advertised discount package of 30$/month/first 5 users, but only available with these 5 licenses as a block) plus one probably needs Salesforce. Many functions EN offers are not advertised, so probably they do not exist.

So everybody who wants to test it: Have fun.

It's free for personal use. I'm using it with no Salesforce account. It works fine for single users. It offers more of what I need than Evernote does and they seem to have a better understanding of end users' needs than Evernote does. Evernote isshowing it's age and there's no sign that anyone treats that seriously.

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

The switching costs of going to another application are too high. I just tried Nimbus Note, which does a fair job. But the things that Evernote has in my workflow just aren't worth switching to another app. Therefore it's very much a circumstance lock-in.

In which case, until Ian leads the development to make numerous sub-folders in stacks, I'll stay with Evernote. At which point hell might freeze over. 

Here are a three points where I'm confident Evernote creates value above the competition:

  1. Encrypting text
  2. OCR and Screencapture
  3. Integration into OSx

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 hour ago, kimaldis said:

there's no sign that anyone treats that seriously.

This request has over 400 user votes
however there's a skeuomorphism problem; they want an organization hierarchy and it must be called Notebooks, no other name is acceptable

Evernote has taken the organization hierarchy seriously - this was implemented long ago with the Tag feature

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
53 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Please add more detail

tags have to be uniquely named. So I can't have 2 nodes both with, say, a notes tag undereneath. Why wouldn't I want to have identically named nodes in several places in my note structure? I know there are naming workarounds but they're just that, workarounds. It's kludgy and I don't want to have to deal with it.

consider this structure:

  • aaa
    • bbb
    • ccc

If I select tag 'aaa'in the sidebar it only shows notes contained in 'aaa'. It should show notes in the child tags

The full path of any given tag doesn't show in the note header. This doesn't seem like a problem now but it is if non-unique tag names are allowed.

Why can't I create and rearrange notebooks and tags by D&D in the sidebar. Who would anyone miss that out?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
19 hours ago, kimaldis said:

tags have to be uniquely named

Confirmed - Unique names is a restriction Evernote applies to Notebooks/Tags    
Personally, it works for me; for example I assign notebook/tag "Insurance" to a note without caring about it's place in the tree

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
49 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Confirmed - Unique names is a restriction Evernote applies to Notebooks/Tags    
Personally, it works for me; for example I assign notebook/tag "Insurance" to a note without caring about it's place in the tree

sure, and that's how tags should be. There's the problem, though, they've shoe-horned a partially hierarchical system into tags when really notebooks are more suited. So they have a half hierarchical notebook system - only two levels - and a half-hierarchical tag system, neither of which provide much of why anyone would need a tree structure for thier notes. It's like nearly everything in Evernote; done in the most unhelpful possible way.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
18 hours ago, kimaldis said:

... are more suited

Please add more details - these are two fields in the note metadata - interchangeable for most uses

Notebooks are required in Evernote for sync'd/local, private/shared, offline

I think your intent is to assign notes to folders    
There is no support for folders in Evernote    
We can emulate folders somewhat using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
17 hours ago, kimaldis said:

and a half-hierarchical tag system, neither of which provide much of why anyone would need a tree structure for thier notes.

Sigh. Had this discussion with someone else recently. Uniqueness of tag names does not make the Evernote tag tree any less hierarchical than if duplicate tag names were allowed. It's still a hierarchy, much as say, a company org chart that organizes employees into a hierarchy is still, yes, a hierarchy. Splitting hairs a bit, but the tag tree is not a "half-hierarchy".

That being said, sure, it might be convenient to have multiple instances of the same tag name in the tag tree, but what are the implications? Is tag "A" in one part of the tree the same tag as tag "A" in another part of the tree? If you want that, then some things need to be changed. Tagging becomes a bit more complicated, since you're now tagging with is what is in essence a tag path, so you need to disambiguate. How does this affect search? You'd probably need ways to treat a tag as a path or as a pure label (which it is now). It all seems kin of awkward to me.

In the end, the Evernote tag tree can be used to navigate your notes if you want (and you're careful and disciplined), and people do (but I don't, being more lazy than disciplined when it comes to organizing my notes), but it's antithetical to the primary notion of a tag in Evernote. A tag is not a container; it labels a note. A note can have multiple tabs, and that's a strength. Flip side, a note belongs to exactly one notebook, much like a fil ein a file system (modulo hard links, etc.), so I think it's far more likely that Evernote will eventually go to some form of nested notebook structure, rather than  allowing tags to live in multiple parts of the tag tree. I don't really count stacks; they're helpful to some degree, and I use them a little, but I don't use a lot of notebooks either (< 25 across two accounts). For my money, tags are a better way of organizing my notes than yet another hierarchical system to traipse up and down. As usual, YMMV...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
9 hours ago, kimaldis said:

There's the problem, though, they've shoe-horned a partially hierarchical system into tags when really notebooks are more suited.

The contra is actually the truth in my view, users have shoehorned a hierarchical system into tags.  Tags in and of themselves are just that, tags.  They have no structural component.  You can nest tags but that is pretty much just an organizational thing group all accounts together under Accounts for example (other than the option to find all notes for the parent tag and its children). 

You get the same "node" on notes by using the same tag on notes.  So every project doesn't have to have a training tag.  One training tag will do paired up with the appropriate project tag to find all training notes for a project.  It's a tuple view vs a hierarchical view.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
21 hours ago, kimaldis said:

If I select tag 'aaa'in the sidebar it only shows notes contained in 'aaa'. It should show notes in the child tags

In the windows client there is an option "automatically select child tags" which works perfectly.

  • Like 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
42 minutes ago, Mike P said:

In the windows client there is an option "automatically select child tags" which works perfectly.

We don't have the child option on other platforms, but I replicate the hierarchy in my notebook/tag names   
For example  tag:Budget and child tags Budget-House, Budget-Food, Budget-...

I can search for tag:Budget* 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
3 hours ago, Mike P said:

In the windows client there is an option "automatically select child tags" which works perfectly.

Unfortunately, this is a bad, or at least misguided feature in the Windows client, for a several reasons:

  • It's a global setting: you cannot choose to make a search be a subtag search if the option is off, and you cannot choose to make a search be an exact (i.e., no subtags) if it's on
  • The search semantics (i.e., results you get) when the option is on will not match the results in any other client, and also do not match the documented search language (https://dev.evernote.com/doc/articles/search_grammar.php). So your saved searches may not work the same on non-Windows cients.
  • If you are adding tags by choosing tags by clicking them from a list with the option on, you can get a big surprise if you add tags that have subtags: all of the subtags are added explicitly to the search (i.e., you see them in the search info), *and* it turns your search automatically into an ANY search, even if it was an AND search (the default). Surprise!

I'd say that this works much less than perfectly. I  think that someone on the Windows team thought that with would be a clever hack, but it was far too clever for its own good. A much better way to have implemented this would have been to add a way to specify subtag search in the search language (e.g., via something like a +tag:AParentTag term) , and support it everywhere so that searches work the same on all device types. Then you could use it, or not, in specific searches, and also achieve a new set of AND/OR searches by specifying a subtag search term in a standard AND search, much like wildcarded text searches in Evernote work.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

My apologies if I am repeating what anyone else has said/asked... I simply do not have the time to read through all 15 pages of this discussion! One thing I did notice is people saying they would rather use OneNote because of this feature lacking. Idu... OneNote has notebooks, sections, and pages; EN has stacks, notebooks and notes - what's the difference?

I am a PhD level researcher and have tried every piece of note-taking/annotation software/app to annotate, keep and organise hundreds of academic papers and journals. Some do some things well, but EN has the most of the different functions I need in one place (not ALL, but it minimises the amount of different programs I have to jump between to do different things).

I currently use tags to label notes with areas in the research they are relevant to, but I would like to create another layer(s). Could someone please explain how tag hierarchies are created, or point me to somewhere where it is explained in detail? I do think another level of subnotes would be great, so upvoted this fwiw, but could use some help making what is available work for me in the meantime, thanks!

 

 

 

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
20 hours ago, jefito said:

Unfortunately, this is a bad, or at least misguided feature in the Windows client, for a several reasons:

  • It's a global setting: you cannot choose to make a search be a subtag search if the option is off, and you cannot choose to make a search be an exact (i.e., no subtags) if it's on
  • The search semantics (i.e., results you get) when the option is on will not match the results in any other client, and also do not match the documented search language (https://dev.evernote.com/doc/articles/search_grammar.php). So your saved searches may not work the same on non-Windows cients.
  • If you are adding tags by choosing tags by clicking them from a list with the option on, you can get a big surprise if you add tags that have subtags: all of the subtags are added explicitly to the search (i.e., you see them in the search info), *and* it turns your search automatically into an ANY search, even if it was an AND search (the default). Surprise!

I'd say that this works much less than perfectly. I  think that someone on the Windows team thought that with would be a clever hack, but it was far too clever for its own good. A much better way to have implemented this would have been to add a way to specify subtag search in the search language (e.g., via something like a +tag:AParentTag term) , and support it everywhere so that searches work the same on all device types. Then you could use it, or not, in specific searches, and also achieve a new set of AND/OR searches by specifying a subtag search term in a standard AND search, much like wildcarded text searches in Evernote work.

It's not a feature I personally use for many of the reasons you outline. If I do need to select all the child tags I manually select them by clicking the parent tag and then shift + clicking the last child tag in the list and then changing "all" to "any" in the search details. 

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
3 hours ago, Mike P said:

It's not a feature I personally use for many of the reasons you outline. If I do need to select all the child tags I manually select them by clicking the parent tag and then shift + clicking the last child tag in the list and then changing "all" to "any" in the search details. 

Yup. I thought the idea was cool when it was introduced, but too many times I clicked on a tag with subchildren without realizing, and got my search filter bombed with all of those tags (sometimes 20 or more). I don't use the tag tree for hierarchical searching, just to organize them loosely. If Evernote ever offered better tools to do hierarchical tag search, I'd consider using them, but I seem to be doing OK as it is.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 1/25/2020 at 10:55 AM, mixpix said:

... Could someone please explain how tag hierarchies are created, or point me to somewhere where it is explained in detail? ...

 
Simply Right-Click on an already created tag and select 'Create tag in "<this>"...' to create a sub-level tag (if you are a Windows user - if not, I'm sure that other platform offer similar functionality 😉).
 
I've done so with groups of tags to describe note attributes like "When?", "Who?", "Where?", "Type" and so on. My current tag tree looks like the following:
image.png.71968349ac50607351bf065dc79d3b39.png 
You can find a more-in-detail description of this methodology in http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/114779-using-tags-to-implement-dynamic-todo-lists/. This makes it completely unnecessary to structure notebooks in deep hierarchies.
 
I've around 10 stacks of several notebooks organized by tags like described above. Nobody needs more. Full stop 😉
  • Like 1
  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 1/25/2020 at 9:55 AM, mixpix said:

My apologies if I am repeating what anyone else has said/asked... I simply do not have the time to read through all 15 pages of this discussion! One thing I did notice is people saying they would rather use OneNote because of this feature lacking. Idu... OneNote has notebooks, sections, and pages; EN has stacks, notebooks and notes - what's the difference?

I am a PhD level researcher and have tried every piece of note-taking/annotation software/app to annotate, keep and organise hundreds of academic papers and journals. Some do some things well, but EN has the most of the different functions I need in one place (not ALL, but it minimises the amount of different programs I have to jump between to do different things).

I currently use tags to label notes with areas in the research they are relevant to, but I would like to create another layer(s). Could someone please explain how tag hierarchies are created, or point me to somewhere where it is explained in detail? I do think another level of subnotes would be great, so upvoted this fwiw, but could use some help making what is available work for me in the meantime, thanks!

Hi.  You've not said what device(s) or OS('s) you're using,  which is a relevant factor in that some OS's show tags in slightly different ways,  and mobile OS's generally don't support a tag hierarchy (TH).  You'll get a flat list of all tags regardless of parent/child relationships.  TH's are otherwise pretty simple - it's possible to 'nest' tags as deeply as you'd like,  so subtags down to 100 levels could be set up,  if rather impractical. 

Plus.  searching for a sub-level tag can also display all 'parent' levels.  Or not - it's an option.

477426164_Clipboard1.jpg.31e034e99d39dc0ad89f059effa60d12.jpg

The Note options you have are:

  • Stacks - contain notebooks only: no notes (selecting a stack gives you a listing of all notes in the notebooks in that stack)
  • Notebooks - contain notes only - no 'deeper' level
  • Notes - various types of content - can be linked directly to other notes

Tags and note titles add extra dimensions - forinstance I always start note titles with the date the contents were created in yyyymmdd format.  That date is likely different to the created date of the note,

Another grouping of notes can be engineered by Tables of Content - also referred to here sometimes as 'dashboards'.  Maintenance is an issue,  but I use an app Filterize to automate that.  I have one notebook for Dashboard notes and one dashboard note with links to all the others which is the ultimate parent reference point.

From that note - call that 'level one' - I can choose any of the others (level two) which contain links to notes anywhere in my database (level three) which can also be local dashboards for more specialist subjects (level four) which can also be dashboards... ad infinitum until you eventually get to an actual note containing data!

  • Thanks 1

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

I used to use EverNote for everything, using single-level notebooks and lots of tags. When they added the ability to stack notebooks, I was happy for awhile, but it really wasn't enough. I recently started using Bublup, which lets me nest folders as many levels deep as I want. This makes it very easy for me to organize things in whatever way works for those things. Any given folder can hold any kind of data: links, notes, images, files, even more folders. The only thing Bublup doesn't do is tags. But I've discovered that for almost everything I'm doing right now, I don't need tags, because I can set up multiply-nested folders.

So the only thing that I consistently still use EverNote for is collecting recipes and other food-related info. Everything goes into one folder, and I tag the heck out of it: meal category, ingredients, special equipment, tips, etc. I've found that tags work better for the recipe collection than multiple folders, because there's a lot of overlap. To get the same effect with folders, I'd wind up putting a copy of any given recipe into each of a bunch of folders. For example, a muffin recipe might be sweet or savory, it will have ingredients that I always have on hand (so I won't tag those unless it requires an unusual amount of something), but it also has ingredients that I don't always have on hand. Describing that recipe for search purposes is easier with tags; instead of putting it in a folder (Muffins/Sweet/Pumpkin/Sour Cream/Freezable), I can just tag it with all those characteristics. Then, when I have several cans of pumpkin puree and feel like making muffins that I can then freeze, I just search for the tags muffins + pumpkin + freezable, and I'm good to go.

Tags work really well for my recipe collection, but for everything else I'm doing, nested folders are so much easier to organize. If we could do multiple layers of nested folders (matryoshka folders, anyone?), then I'd probably go back to using EverNote for everything. I might even divvy up the recipe collection into folders, in addition to using tags.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
3 hours ago, Andrea Johnson said:

for everything else I'm doing, nested folders are so much easier to organize.

If that's your personal experience,  then it's absolutely fine to use whatever method you prefer.  It's a fact that Evernote does not currently directly support 'nesting' notebooks beyond Stacks > Notebooks > Notes.  There have been hints that they might change the system used for the application's administration of notes to allow more flexibility,  but we don't yet know what that might look like.  Meantime there are 'work arounds' like tags, tables of content etc which may or  may not apply to your use case.

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
6 hours ago, Andrea Johnson said:

I don't need tags, because I can set up multiply-nested folders...        

If we could do multiple layers of nested folders...

Notebooks, Tags, Folders;  they're just labels for an organization tool      
Evernote supplies us with two note metadata fields; Notebooks and Tags 
For this discussion,  the important thing is hierarchy (nesting)

For myself, the important thing is identifying the categories that apply to a note   
Do the Bublup folders allow for multiple assignments?

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 1/13/2020 at 4:54 PM, DTLow said:

Please provide some details on your use-case and why it requires Notebooks instead of Tags
afaik  Tags and Notebooks are interchangeable (except for the share/sync/offline thing)

That's it; i need to share many notes and we want to have a structure.

2.) I don't want to remember my tags. When i create a Note, i have to tag it by typing, thus remembering the explicit Tag for the usecase. That is not practical, cause Evernote is for storing Information so i don't NEED to remember everithing. 

 

I just would like to store/file away like i do with my Files in my Computer or in my Head: in Categories and folders. Someones with a flat Hierarchie, cuase simple and some with a deep hierarchy, cause complex.

 

Used Evernote for 3 Companys and private and need more Power...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
On 8/18/2008 at 12:37 AM, engberg said:

We don't have sub-notebooks, but you can organize tags into a hierarchy. This may allow you to set up the organizational scheme you're looking for.

Not if you want to share

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 hour ago, Andre Doernemann said:

Used Evernote for 3 Companys and private and need more Power...

Sounds like you might need Evernote Business - it still doesn't support nested notebooks,  but there's an additional option called spaces that might help...

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
2 hours ago, Andre Doernemann said:

I don't want to remember my tags....

You prefer "remembering" notebooks?

>>I just would like to store/file away like i do with my Files in my Computer

Thats Folder methodology   
It's not supported in Evernote; we get Notebooks and Tags    
Some users emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0

Add my voice to wanting nesting notebooks. I'm already drowning in tags. And I need to see the visual org of a particular project. 

Share this post


Link to post
  • 0
1 hour ago, krestor2 said:

And I need to see the visual org of a particular project. 

Is that a reference to the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar?484786005_ScreenShot2020-02-12at11_59_48AM.png.24cc0c2c461a612f5d1f4aa9e573798a.png

Share this post


Link to post
  • -1
15 hours ago, MancChris said:

Simply put, I would find it very useful if Evernote could allow for a directory structure for organising notebooks and sub notebooks similar to how we can use folders and sub folders on Windows.

 At present, Evernote only allows a two level hierarchy for Notebooks.  This is implemented by grouping notebooks into Stacks

Please add your vote to the request above.  Voting buttons are in the top left corner of the discussion 

>>if I want to organise notes for writing a novel, I could call the main notebook 'Novel', and then have sub notebooks called 'characters', 'theme', etc.  Within 'Character'  I could then have sub-notebooks like 'David', 'Sarah', etc containing notes about those characters.

A work-around is to use a standard naming convention; for example

  • Novel
  • Novel - Characters
  • Novel - Characters - David
  • Novel - Characters - Sarah
  • Novel - Theme

 

Share this post


Link to post
  • -6

We don't have sub-notebooks, but you can organize tags into a hierarchy. This may allow you to set up the organizational scheme you're looking for.

  • Thanks 1
  • Haha 1
  • Confused 1
  • Sad 1

Share this post


Link to post

Create an account or sign in to comment

You need to be a member in order to leave a comment

Create an account

Sign up for a new account in our community. It's easy!

Register a new account

Sign in

Already have an account? Sign in here.

Sign In Now

×
×
  • Create New...