Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

[cswsteve 52]

I think Evernote is a fantastic product, especially with the iPhone integration. I currently use a program called UltraRecall because of it's heavy use of subfolders. This makes organizing my data very logical. I was wondering if Evernotes has a way to create subnotebooks under existing notebooks to help group numerious notebooks together?

Example Notebooks:

Work

Clients

Customer1

Customer2

Customer3

Customer4

Personal

Electronics

Web Clips

[jefito 5,311]

36 minutes ago, estevancarlos said:

Regarding the workflow, Evernote does not make it easy to organize or view your tags. When I'm in Gmail, I can literally view a sidebar of tags and sub-tags. I can quickly find what I need. I can have the same emails within separate tags.

?? Evernote already does this. Certainly the desktop clients offer all of the same functionality with respect to tags (what GMail calls 'labels'); I tag notes with multiple tags all the time.

 

38 minutes ago, estevancarlos said:

Evernote instead should better feature tags on the sidebar, copy the structure of Gmail and encourage people to use tags for their tree-structure needs.

 

[DTLow 3,856]

2 hours ago, estevancarlos said:

Additionally, creating a complex set of options for organizing information may make it that much more difficult for some users to find the best organizational strategy. It is likely useful that Evernote limit the options they make available.

I agree with this.  Users argue that organization must be nested Notebooks (even Folders).  I’ve adjusted to the term Tag.

I don’t need multiple organization methods beyond the current features

It would be great if the tag hierarchy was displayed on all platforms.  I compensate somewhat by using a naming convention to ensure alphabetical sequence

[CalS 3,759]

1 hour ago, estevancarlos said:

Evernote instead promotes the idea of Notebooks which are large, non-hierarchical buckets of information.

Not so sure about EN promoting notebooks.  Notebooks exist as large non-hierarchical buckets for sure, but I think EN is more about promoting tags for organization and notebooks as limiters for search and on-line/off-line storage.

[Flier 15]

15 minutes ago, DTLow said:

I agree with this.  Users argue that organization must be nested Notebooks (even Folders).  They can’t adjust to the term Tag.

We don’t need multiple organization methods beyond the current features

It would be great if the tag hierarchy was displayed on all platforms

A couple of amusing things I notice about the zealots who unfailingly arrive to attack posts requesting conventional folders:

1) They say the same things over and over, in old posts and new ones.  Believing that repetition is a debating technique?

2) Frequent ad hominem attacks. i.e., "They can't adjust ... "

2) Unfailing arrogance, assuming that they are qualified to speak for all users .  i.e., "We don't need ... "

I am too old to know everything, but it is a stage that most of us, but not all, outgrew in our 20s.

[DTLow 3,856]

1 hour ago, Flier said:

2) Unfailing arrogance, assuming that they are qualified to speak for all users .  i.e., "We don't need ... "

I edited my post to avoid this confusion; I was speaking for myself.
I try to control it, but sometimes my "unfailing arrogance" slips out     mea culpa

1) They say the same things over and over, in old posts and new ones.  Believing that repetition is a debating technique?

Is this a reference to the folder zealots, or the tag zealots

[estevancarlos 7]

1 hour ago, jefito said:

?? Evernote already does this. Certainly the desktop clients offer all of the same functionality with respect to tags (what GMail calls 'labels'); I tag notes with multiple tags all the time.

 

 

I'm realizing now that the clients for Evernote might vary in many ways. I do have the ability to view children tags of parent tags in my version of Evernote on OSX.

[jeffsf 10]

2 hours ago, estevancarlos said:

I'm realizing now that the clients for Evernote might vary in many ways. I do have the ability to view children tags of parent tags in my version of Evernote on OSX.

Right, but not on iOS, making tags a non-starter as the mail organizational system.

[DTLow 3,856]

53 minutes ago, jeffsf said:

Right, but not on iOS, making tags a non-starter as the mail organizational system. (Hierarchy)

Can you explain that further.  I actually use Evernote as a mail archive

What features are you looking for?

At a minimum, the sender is identified by a tag.  I add tags if the mail relates to a project, vendor,  ...

[jefito 5,311]

2 hours ago, Flier said:

A couple of amusing things I notice about the zealots who unfailingly arrive to attack posts requesting conventional folders:

The so-called zealots are often the folks who have been around long enough to understand that Evernote has historically and consistently been uninterested in providing nested notebooks (this particular thread is a prime example). Pointing that out, and advocating for the use of tags, and offering examples like GMail to show that hierarchical containers aren't necessary features in a product like Evernote isn't attacking anyone; it's giving some context to the conversation. I feel like I understand the use case pretty well (and I'm sure that Evernote does as well), and while I don't need nested notebooks, I understand why some folks believe that they do, or maybe actually do. Sometimes it does indeed come down to the fact that they don't understand tags, and sometimes some tips can help that.

Regardless, only Evernote can make the decision to implement nested notebooks, and since they haven't, we users have the power to choose whatever competing product that suits our needs / budget / aesthetics is available, while those that want them in Evernote can continue advocating for them. If that's done respectfully and reasonably, then that's welcome to the conversation as well. Some of it is not, however, and I think that that's when most conflicts occur. *shrug* 'Twas ever thus, on the Internet.

[tavor 441]

30 minutes ago, jefito said:

Sometimes it does indeed come down to the fact that they don't understand tags, and sometimes some tips can help that.

From the many threads and posts complaining about the various notebook/nesting limits, it seems to me that most (with some rare exceptions) do not understand the full functionality potential of tags. And it's easy to see why that's the case because EN doesn't really delve deeply into this in their help materials. I only really started to appreciate tags as I learned about them from other users in this forum. And from then on, I only used notebooks to delineate notes based on access (synchronized, local, offline, shared), not based on content.

So for those who have been pining for unlimited notebooks and nesting for years and are unwilling to move to competing products that embrace notebooks, I'd suggest taking an open-minded approach and learn more about what tags can do. If you have a specific use case where you feel EN's limited notebook functionality is constraining your workflow, just describe it and I'm sure one of us taggers can suggest how it can be accomplished using tags. You might be surprised, and you may just get converted.

Of course the alternative is to continue complaining - we're only at page 39 of this thread and as far I know there is no post count limit for threads, so have at it.   

[nelsonxav 0]

Is it  that difficult for EN to develop the nesting feature?

[gazumped 6,879]

On 13/08/2017 at 5:32 PM, nelsonxav said:

Is it  that difficult for EN to develop the nesting feature?

Not a question of ability,  just choice...

[DTLow 3,856]

On 2017-08-13 at 9:32 AM, nelsonxav said:

Is it  that difficult for EN to develop the nesting feature?

Looking at the tag feature (Mac/Windows) it doesn't seem difficult
- It's implemented by adding a parent field to the tag table
- And the UI has to be modified to display the hierarchy

As per @gazumped, this was a design choice by Evernote
For organization purposes, they implemented this element called Tag
They implemented another element called Notebook.  It can be used for organization, but it also has other purposes

[Echoreflection 6]

I also think nested stacks would be a great idea.  Sadly, I am just a user and not an Evernote product development person.  However, I recently discovered a web app that works like an extension to Evernote called "filterize" that allows for nested tags/a tag hierarchy, that I think can effectively solve the "problem" of nesting Evernote notebooks.  Filterize is a "freemium" service, at least for now.  http://www.filterize.net

[DTLow 3,856]

4 hours ago, Echoreflection said:

filterize" that allows for nested tags/a tag hierarchy, that I think can effectively solve the "problem" of nesting Evernote notebooks.

Tag hierarchy is an Evernote feature.  I use it on my Mac to organize my tags

My understanding of Filterize is that it automates the assignment of tags.  I do this on my Mac using scripts

[gazumped 6,879]

21 hours ago, Saxophone said:

To all Guru's that keep saying the same thing about being able to do the same thing with tag. This maybe so but is not the point. 

Clearly for at least the last 9 Years people have been asking for the ability to nest stacks. We pay for this product and this is what we want so do it already.

Hi.  You pay a licence fee to use Evernote's software and server space - you're not owners of the company,  or even - apparently - members of a sufficiently large body of users to convince Evernote that it's worth doing the necessary research and development to add this feature to their product.  If you can't live without 'sub folders' in one form or another,  then this isn't the product for you. 

[DTLow 3,856]

23 hours ago, Saxophone said:

We pay for this product and this is what we want so do it already.

You paid for the software?  
I pay a subscription but it's for extending the featureset

[jefito 5,311]

On 9/19/2017 at 1:44 PM, Saxophone said:

To all Guru's that keep saying the same thing about being able to do the same thing with tag. This maybe so but is not the point. 

Clearly for at least the last 9 Years people have been asking for the ability to nest stacks. We pay for this product and this is what we want so do it already.

Actually, Plus and Premium users pay a subscription for the service, not the product (since you can get and use the product for free), and hope that there are new features added that make Evernote more useful. In the absence of nested notebooks, we suggest using tags, much as we suggest workarounds or alternative strategies for any features that don't exist in Evernote. That's all we users can do, since we can;'t change Evernote. Suggesting workarounds is intended to be helpful, and not intended to say that nested notebooks aren't a good idea or wouldn't be useful (though In my case, I don't need them myself). 

You should also note that users get the designation "Guru" based purely on post count, but otherwise we are all individuals with differing perspectives on using Evernote and what features are (or might be) useful, so addressing 'Gurus' as a group usually doesn't make much sense. If you're unhappy with  what  a guru (or any other forum user) posts, then it's usually better to respond to them individually.

[raphaelaguiar 4]

In my opinion, a simple Table of Contents based on headings at the beginning of notes would be enough to address this issue.

Maybe many users want folders because they are more "visual" than searchers.

I consider myself a visual guy in this matter: I avoid putting too much stuff at a note because it becomes messy, then I found myself making new folders and tags to store small pieces of data and keep an eye on everything.

EN searches always give me tons of results, and that makes many of them useless to me, specially when I need to quickly find something. On the other hand, I'm fast in finding things if I visually know where I put them.

It might be a personal issue, since a lot of users are satisfied with EN the way it is today. I'm clearly aware of it.

Anyway, if I had a table of contents for headings in each note, my need for more folders/tags would diminish a lot, because my notes would be able to go as large as needed. Take a look at USA's wikipedia article: there is a huge ammount of data there, but yet it is pretty manageable.

 

 

[DTLow 3,856]

1 hour ago, raphaelaguiar said:

In my opinion, a simple Table of Contents based on headings at the beginning of notes would be enough to address this issue.

Not sure the users would consider a ToC as a substitute for a notebook hierarchy.

I think users are looking for the legacy folder navigation they used in with computer files, or with a manual filing cabinet.

This is not a feature supported by Evernote.  
If Evernote’s organization method isn’t working for you, you should be looking at a different product.  
Everyone is welcome to indicate their support for this request using the voting buttons (top left corner), but honestly, Evernote has never indicate an interest in adding this feature

[jefito 5,311]

2 hours ago, raphaelaguiar said:

In my opinion, a simple Table of Contents based on headings at the beginning of notes would be enough to address this issue.

No; that's is a separate request. Maybe it would work for you, but that's not what the people requesting for nested notebooks are asking for.

The "Table of contents" is actually akin to a request for "internal links", or "anchors", which can take you from one location in a note to another. They've been requested before, elsewhere in the forums. Internal links would be useful.

[DTLow 3,856]

11 minutes ago, raphaelaguiar said:

I've learned here that the only discussion which really matters is about # of votes.

What matters to me is how to make this product work for me.

Yes, indicate your support for a feature request using the vote buttons; however I’m interested in work-arounds for the product limitations

[raphaelaguiar 4]

5 minutes ago, DTLow said:

What matters to me is how to make this product work for me.

That's the point: what really matters to everybody here is how to make this product work for each one of us.

All in all, just don't use subfolders if they come up and this product will keep working for you.

[gazumped 6,879]

13 hours ago, raphaelaguiar said:

All in all, just don't use subfolders if they come up and this product will keep working for you.

AFAIK no-one has said they are against subfolders,  or that they wouldn't use them in some way if they were available and fit into a use case,  or ignore them if they didn't.  The only point anyone is making is that subfolders don't exist yet. 

If you need that,  then tough: developing the feature will take weeks if you're very lucky,  and months or years if not.  You will need to get around the concept of tags,  or use a different package. 

If you want to continue to use Evernote and winge occasionally that you're being ignored,  that's also fine.  But Evernote take the view that this is their product and they don't (usually) share any information about whether or not they'll be introducing a new feature,  and if so when that might happen.  It's already been a quiet few years on this topic - it's unlikely things will change soon.

The no info about stuff in development (I'd imagine) is so they're not telegraphing their moves to the competition so someone else can launch the same feature a week before they do.

The weeks / months / years timescale is because (according to one of Evernote's devs) some features are easy to add because that's an extra line of code.  Others are much more difficult because it would require code rewrites for every one of the app variations to make them work.

Just sayin' 

[D-Nick 2]

On 09/11/2008 at 2:27 PM, missdipsy said:

Actually, not everyone is arguing for sub-notebooks; I don't really see the point when we have a perfectly good method of organisation in the form of tags! I've tried very hard to understand why you all seem to want subnotebooks and I haven't really seen a pursuasive argument yet that made it clear why subnotebooks would be better than the existing methods of organising notes. 

Could you point me, please, at the documentation that explains how to use tags to simulate folder/notebook hierarchies?  I just can't get how to do it, and can't find any explanation or guidance.

[DTLow 3,856]

On 2017-10-01 at 12:13 PM, D-Nick said:

Could you point me, please, at the documentation that explains how to use tags to simulate folder/notebook hierarchies?  I just can't get how to do it, and can't find any explanation or guidance.

What level of simulation are you looking for?
Its simple enough to create a tag called    NB-Parent
Then create a child tags                                NB-Child

On Mac/Windows, you can organize the tags in a hierarchy as illustrated
There's no limit to the child levels

[jefito 5,311]

On 10/1/2017 at 3:13 PM, D-Nick said:

Could you point me, please, at the documentation that explains how to use tags to simulate folder/notebook hierarchies?  I just can't get how to do it, and can't find any explanation or guidance.

A web search on "evernote use tags to simulate folders" turned up a number of topics

• https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/22415-how-i-use-tags-to-replicate-nested-folders/
• https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/25383-archived-organize-notes-in-folders/
• https://michaelhyatt.com/evernote-tags.html

The list goes on... 

A few things to remember:

• While you can generally have a folder with the same name as a folder in a different part of the tree, you cannot do that with tags in Evernote. Tag names exist in exactly one location in the tag tree. This is a big difference, and probably a drawback to using tags as a folder structure.
• While a file generally exists in only one folder in a file system, a note can "belong" to multiple tags. This a good thing, but it's also a difference with folders.
• If you drag a note to a different notebook, it moves the note to that notebook. If you drag a note to a different tag, it just adds the tag to the existing tags in the note, rather than replacing the existing tags with the new tag.

 

[CalS 3,759]

On 10/1/2017 at 2:13 PM, D-Nick said:

Could you point me, please, at the documentation that explains how to use tags to simulate folder/notebook hierarchies?  I just can't get how to do it, and can't find any explanation or guidance.

Build your tag structure just like you would your notebook structure.

[jefito 5,311]

7 hours ago, grdd said:

I don't understand why after almost 10 years this has not been implemented yet.

Because historically, they have chosen tags as the main organizational feature for Evernote. See answers by ex- Evernote employee engberg earlier in this topic.

7 hours ago, grdd said:

Also, I don't understand why workarounds such as tags are considered a good solution.

Tags are not a workaround in and of themselves. In addition, you can build hierarchies of tags to simulate nested notebooks, but it's not a perfect fit. Even so, some people find this useful; many do not.

7 hours ago, grdd said:

Is it that complicated to add more hierarchy levels to the structure?

Yes. No. Maybe. I know that it would be a large architectural change for them, which isn't unprecedented, but if they don't want to do it, then difficulty isn't really the showstopper.

If nested notebooks / folders whatever is a critical feature for you, then Evernote may not be your product...

[DTLow 3,856]

7 hours ago, grdd said:

Is it that complicated to add more hierarchy levels to the structure?

A hierarchy is do-able; Evernote demonstrated this by implementing a hierarchy with Tags (Win/Mac/Web)

>>Also, I don't understand why workarounds such as tags are considered a good solution.

Tag, Folder, Notebook; they’re just names.  You could just as easily say Evernote must implement Folders, I don’t understand why Notebooks are a good solution

I like Tags as an organization solution because more than one tag can be assigned to a note

>>I don't understand why after almost 10 years this has not been implemented yet.

Evernote has never considered Notebook hierarchy a priority.  

I seriously doubt users would be willing to pay the cost of this development.

[JMichaelTX 3,971]

On 10/1/2017 at 2:13 PM, D-Nick said:

Could you point me, please, at the documentation that explains how to use tags to simulate folder/notebook hierarchies?  I just can't get how to do it, and can't find any explanation or guidance.

Evernote does not provide any official documentation on this.  However, you might find this helpful:

Using Tags as Pseudo Notebooks 

[D-Nick 2]

On 04/10/2017 at 4:18 PM, DTLow said:

What level of simulation are you looking for?
Its simple enough to create a tag called    NB-Parent
Then create a child tags                                NB-Child

On Mac/Windows, you can organize the tags in a hierarchy as illustrated
There's no limit to the child levels

Thanks. What I don't get, though, is how this helps. What do I then do with these tags so that they can me simulate me putting a note in a notebook in the right place in a hierarchy, so I can then go to the right place to read it later?

For example, if I want to have a notebook for a course I'm taking, and then have different sections in that notebook for the different topics in the course, how would I do that with a tag hierarchy,  so that as I take notes (and find things as hoc) they can go into the right section, and later I can go and read through that section?

[jefito 5,311]

5 minutes ago, D-Nick said:

What do I then do with these tags so that they can me simulate me putting a note in a notebook in the right place in a hierarchy, so I can then go to the right place to read it later?

A notebook is like a box that you can put notes into. Tags are labels that you attach to notes that tell you what's in the note. You can find notes by browsing notebooks, or by browsing tags, or by search filters (where you can specify notebook, tags, text, and other metadata) to isolate the notes you're looking for.

5 minutes ago, D-Nick said:

For example, if I want to have a notebook for a course I'm taking, and then have different sections in that notebook for the different topics in the course, how would I do that with a tag hierarchy,  so that as I take notes (and find things as hoc) they can go into the right section, and later I can go and read through that section?

You can do it all with tags, if you want: a main tag for course, and subtags for topics. Add tags as necessary. You need to remember that tags are unique: they reside in exactly one place in the tag tree; you you may need to resort to naming tricks to make unique tags relating to a course, if you want to build a tag browse tree (one you can browse down to find specific notes). Or you can reuse tags to categorize your notes (much as we reuse words in different context) to search for the notes you're interested in. There are lots of ways to go about this; it's all pretty much up to you...

[DTLow 3,856]

1 hour ago, D-Nick said:

What I don't get, though, is how this helps. What do I then do with these tags so that they can me simulate me putting a note in a notebook in the right place in a hierarchy, so I can then go to the right place to read it later?

This is an example from my Mac, viewing my Art notes
Using the structure in the sidebar, I go to
CommonPlace  >  NoteTypes > Reference > Art

If these were notebooks/sub-notebooks, I would have the exact same structure

(Ignore the name prefixes; Just something I use for grouping and sorting)

>>putting a note in a notebook in the right place

I can use the example structure, but usually I don't worry about the "right place".  I simply tag the note with !Ref-Art

[gazumped 6,879]

31 minutes ago, D-Nick said:

as I take notes (and find things as hoc) they can go into the right section, and later I can go and read through that section?

Hi.  That's easy - use the tag structure to navigate to the tag you need - "woodworking" or whatever.  Apply that tag to your note(s).  Search for the tag when you want to see all the notes in that virtual 'section'. 

[gazumped 6,879]

On 24/10/2017 at 10:12 PM, Brien Bear said:

"EN isn't right for you"

Hi.  Remember this is a user forum - we don't have any brief to 'sell' a product,  only to give advice and help if we can to solve individual issues - and if someone is really wedded to a process that Evernote doesn't cater for,  what else can we say?  If Evernote isn't working for you,  then trying another product seems like common sense.

On 24/10/2017 at 10:12 PM, Brien Bear said:

typing out the long date format for every expense report is going to be cumbersome.

I'm lazy.  I use long titles for my notes which would probably take an age to type in full.  So I use Phrase Express (a text-expander) to insert dates and text at the press of a key.  Since I have more title options than I have key combinations available,  I also have a note with an alphabetic listing of all the standard titles I use - names of contacts,  projects,  suppliers etc.  If I had your expense report issue forinstance I'd note the standard wording for each report and create some PE shortcuts to insert <monday last week's date> and <monday+7 days> (or whatever date offset you need).

Copy the standard bit,  hit two shortcuts,  and you have your title.  Use intitle:<keyword> for searches rather than (or as well as) tags.

"intitle:<date> or intitle:<date-range>" will get you the report history as and when you may need it.

[DTLow 3,856]

 

On 2017-10-24 at 2:12 PM, Brien Bear said:

typing out the long date format for every expense report is going to be cumbersome. "2017 October 16-18", "2017 October 23-25", etc. 

I rarely type out long tagnames.
I would start typing "2017 O" and a dropdown list appears showing all my 2017 October tags; I just pick the one I need

 

 

 

[jefito 5,311]

On 10/24/2017 at 5:12 PM, Brien Bear said:

And I don't know who at Evernote reads this, but the other thing I'd like to say is, I understand the gurus role, but telling people "EN isn't right for you" - that's really not a great answer for people to respond with. If you're trying to sell a product, chasing them away isn't going to help sell.

First off, it seems that you don't actually understand the 'Guru' role; the label 'Guru' is only based on post count, and not anything to do with marketing Evernote. Beyond that, nobody's advice here is "Evernote isn't right for you", so far as I know; it's more like "if nested notebooks are a requirement for your use of Evernote, that it's probably not for you (since it doesn't meet your requirements). On the other hand, here are some alternative things you could try in Evernote that might work for you, etc., etc.". But hey, if you're implying that the proper reply is actually that Evernote is perfect for users who have requirements that Evernote doesn't meet, then you, as a fellow Evernote user, are certainly welcome to try it out...

[DTLow 3,856]

On 2017-10-24 at 2:12 PM, Brien Bear said:

telling people "EN isn't right for you" - that's really not a great answer for people to respond with.

Its like my experience at the grocery store.  I tell the clerks I prefer the taste of apples and they keep trying to direct me away from the oranges

[kingtrn 4]

7 hours ago, DTLow said:

Its like my experience at the grocery store.  I tell the clerks I prefer the taste of apples and they keep trying to direct me away from the oranges

Failed analogy. If it is in the grocery store, then I will just leave, or I will demand to see the manager. But in this product, EN users have the right to demand feature based on their interest, familiarity, and convenience, that is the purpose of this forum, which make EN better, and can serve a wide range of users (and I thought that is what they are aiming for).

This forum thread, it's like my experience at the grocery store where I tell the clerk that I want to buy apples I prefer the taste of an apple, then a guy, who is also a customer, comes and tell me that I shouldn't buy apples, I should buy oranges because oranges taste better.

That guy is you, the users who keep talking about tags again and again, and even say that if I don't want to use tag then just leave.

[DTLow 3,856]

1 hour ago, kingtrn said:

EN users have the right to demand feature

Wrong; users have the right to request, not demand

>>even say that if I don't want to use tag then just leave

Personally I never said such a thing. I fully support a users right to not use tags

I have said if nested notebooks/folders is a non-negotiable requirement, they should be looking at a different product; it's not a feature offered by Evernote. 

[kingtrn 4]

21 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Wrong; users have the right to request, not demand

>>even say that if I don't want to use tag then just leave

Personally I never said such a thing. I fully support a users right to not use tags

I have said if users require nested notebooks/folders, they should be looking at a different product; it's not a feature offered by Evernote. 

I will not argue with you about the request vs demand vocabulary because after all, the purpose of a product to meet the demand of its users. Agree that you give me an advice that I should do this and I shouldn't do that. But the thing which matters to me is what I want. Evernote is a good product, I purchased it, and I want to use Evernote with this feature which is lacking, so I use this forum to talk to the development team.

With the nested feature, it does not affect you, the users who are using tags. I so don't see the reasons why you guys are arguing so hard about this feature as if this nested feature will put an end to the tag system. I've used both of the systems, sometimes I do use tags, sometimes nested are better (why? because I know it IS better in that case, I have a brain). So arguing with me the tag system is better, you prefer the tag system, I should looking for a different product is nonsense. Why should I need to look for another product when I love to use EVN and I have a chance to request the feature?

[DTLow 3,856]

3 minutes ago, kingtrn said:

I so don't see the reasons why you guys are arguing so hard about this feature as if this nested feature will put an end to the tag system.

I think you missed Evernote's point of view (which I support); that nested notebooks/folders are not necessary

If you do manage to convince Evernote; I have no objection to the feature being implemented
 

[kingtrn 4]

10 minutes ago, DTLow said:

I think you missed Evernote's point of view (which I support); that nested notebooks/folders are not necessary

If you do manage to convince Evernote; I have no objection to the feature being implemented
 

I am just a regular busy user, being able to find out this forum and give some votes is an unusual thing I do for a software. So if this idea is 100% contradict to the EVN direction, why the hell this thread is still open with a hundred vote? Is there any management team or person here to read what is explained and officially give a verdict? What is the point of this forum? It's from 2008, reading, arguing, it depressingly and devastatingly wastes the time of users.

[DTLow 3,856]

42 minutes ago, kingtrn said:

What is the point of this forum?

The point of the Evernote Feature Requests forum is for users to post feature requests.  The voting mechanism allows users to indicate the userbase support for a request

The point of the subsequent discussion is to explore the request in more detail, alternatives, work-arounds etc

[raphaelaguiar 4]

10 hours ago, DTLow said:

if nested notebooks/folders is a non-negotiable requirement, they should be looking at a different product; it's not a feature offered by Evernote. 

If users have to look for a different product when a desired feature is not offered by EN, why are we discussing ideas in a forum called "Evernote Feature Requests"?

[gazumped 6,879]

5 minutes ago, raphaelaguiar said:

If users have to look for a different product when a desired feature is not offered by EN, why are we discussing ideas in a forum called "Evernote Feature Requests"?

Like any practical enterprise Evernote is aware that it's customers may disagree with the content of what it thought was the best package for their use.  Or a customer may come up with some off the wall suggestion that they never even considered.  They're keen to collect information on what customers want,  so that they can see whether it is technically and financially beneficial for the company to enhance their product so as to attract more custom.  They are not obliged to do anything with any of them.

Even if Evernote see an idea that costs nothing to implement and requires no technical change*,  but might increase sales by a measurable percentage,  they still might not introduce it,  because it locks the product into a situation where other planned improvements might be more difficult to code. 

See:

All of these considerations are none of our business as users of the product,  whether paying or not.  All we get to choose is whether to continue as an Evernote customer,  or to look elsewhere for something that does half as well. 

I'm sure that 40-odd pages of heated discussion have made it abundantly clear to Evernote that this is a hot topic.  You're more than welcome to continue banging the drum,  but if they didn't decide to do something by now,  you might reasonably consider that its a waste of effort. 

Amusingly they may have already made the decision to implement something to satisfy proponents of this idea - a new (optional) feature could already be scheduled for release some time in the next few years when it fits in with their schedule.  But Evernote don't talk about developments until they're launched.

* This is purely hypothetical,  because everything costs money,  takes time,  needs testing and - inevitably - bug fixes later!

[Flier 15]

11 hours ago, kingtrn said:

This forum thread, it's like my experience at the grocery store where I tell the clerk that I want to buy apples I prefer the taste of an apple, then a guy, who is also a customer, comes and tell me that I shouldn't buy apples, I should buy oranges because oranges taste better.

That guy is you, the users who keep talking about tags again and again, and even say that if I don't want to use tag then just leave.

ROFL.  Excellent metaphor.  I've been watching and occasionally contributing to this thread for quite a while and the paradigm is pretty standard.  (1) Someone comes in asking for nested folders.  (2) One or more EN zealots, DTLow always among them, come in to browbeat the poster for wanting this and to explain in excruciating detail how tags can be used as a workaround.  (3) If the poster attempts to explain that folders have been a standard in computing for years and it is nearly brain-dead for a filing system to not support them, then the zealots attempt to drive him away.

Re an earlier post, I don't think that EN has decided that nested folders are unnecessary for users.  I suspect that there were some unfortunate design decisions very early in EN's development which make a change to nested folders difficult without an expensive and risky rewrite.  That kind of thing happens frequently in developments as the early designers can never be perfectly prescient in knowing how the product and market will evolve.  At the beginning, when the ship is leaving New York, it is pretty easy to make a destination change from Copenhagen to Barcelona.  When the ship has sailed for a week and is approaching Barcelona, a switch to Copenhagen is much more difficult.  So, if EN management indeed uses the word "unnecessary" IMO it is in the context of being able to grow and attract users even with this major deficiency.  They are not dummies, they know the product should have this and, in fact, implemented the silly "stacks" concept in reaction.  But IMO it is probably cost and risk factors that keep them from implementing what they really should have.

DTLow, please do not attempt to answer this.  I have read everything you have to say.  Several times.  It is always the same.

[DTLow 3,856]

2 hours ago, Flier said:

I suspect that there were some unfortunate design decisions very early in EN's development which make a change to nested folders difficult without an expensive and risky rewrite. 

Also known as "Technical Debt".  You might have a point.  Evernote did add the Stack feature, recognizing that users were needing to organize the collection of notebooks.  I use the feature

>>DTLow, please do not attempt to answer this.  I have read everything you have to say.  Several times.  It is always the same.

Good to hear my postings have been noticed.  

New users are arriving in the forums all the time and I'm happy to discuss with them, even if the topic is repetitive.  

I like discovering methods of how to make this product work better for me    
Unfortunately there are some who only want to express their opinion, they are not interested in alternatives and even go so far as to tell other users to not respond

[CalS 3,759]

13 hours ago, kingtrn said:

Is there any management team or person here to read what is explained and officially give a verdict?

Well I suppose it isn't necessarily officially a verdict, but since this topic was started in 2008 and in 2017 the product does not contain the functionality might imply a verdict from the company?  That and other posts in the past from company employees relative to the company line re notebooks and tags.  To date anyway. 

Doesn't mean folks should stop requesting for sure, but at this point...

 

[DTLow 3,856]

17 hours ago, kingtrn said:

it's like my experience at the grocery store where I tell the clerk that I want to buy apples I prefer the taste of an apple,  then a guy, who is also a customer, comes and tell me that I shouldn't buy apples, I should buy oranges because oranges taste better.  That guy is you,

No, I'm the guy pointing out that you're in the oranges section; you should be shopping in the apples section 

>>I will just leave, or I will demand to see the manager.  Thats your right, but it doesn't change the answer.  I'd just go shop in the apples section

If you're asking for a fruit providing vitamins, I can discuss the benefits of oranges vs applesI will just leave, or I will demand to see the manager.

Note: I fully support your right to not eat oranges

[kingtrn 4]

6 hours ago, DTLow said:

No, I'm the guy pointing out that you're in the oranges section; you should be shopping in the apples section 

1

That's not even close to the situation. If you want to use the fruit section metaphor, so here is the correct one:

E is a supermarket near my house, I enjoy shopping here very often, and shopping a lot, so I register a membership card (with customer benefits). I like to eat apples but this supermarket doesn't sell them, so I have to go to another market to buy apples. Clearly, it's not convenient for me. It turns out that the E supermarket has an apartment to collect customer feedback. I'm on my way to write them a suggestion about considering to sell apples. Then there are some guys, who are buying oranges, comes and insists me that oranges' taste is so good, they have a lot of nutrition, why don't I eat oranges? why do I even suggest the supermarket to sell apples???

p/s: and I don't really care about the nutrition, I just simply enjoy the taste of an apple. 

[DTLow 3,856]

3 hours ago, kingtrn said:

I'm on my way to write them a suggestion about considering to sell apples.

Providing feedback is a good approach.  Check if there's an existing request and voting mechanism; you just have to add your vote.  You don't have to participate in discussions

A reminder for new users; To indicate your support for this request "Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks", there are voting buttons at the top left corner of the discussion

[kingtrn 4]

7 hours ago, CalS said:

Well I suppose it isn't necessarily officially a verdict, but since this topic was started in 2008 and in 2017 the product does not contain the functionality might imply a verdict from the company?  That and other posts in the past from company employees relative to the company line re notebooks and tags.  To date anyway. 

Doesn't mean folks should stop requesting for sure, but at this point...

 

First, this kind of work is not good at all. The customer who need helps will have the impression that the product doesn't care about the voice of its customers.

Second, this thread is still open, and its voting is still increasing. Changes take time to happen, so if there is a progress, human usually have a hope. So what I need to know is, is the Evernote team considering this, waiting for the vote to reach a number?, or clearly there is already an answer inside the company,  this suggest were printed to the paper, placed in the meeting table, they had a discussion, and then they said no, and then the paper was thrown to the trash can, and then this thread is still open for the users who have hope about this feature? It hurts.

[kingtrn 4]

Just now, DTLow said:

Providing feedback is a good approach.  Check if there's an existing request and voting mechanism; you just have to add your vote

I saw it, and I voted for it million years ago.

[kingtrn 4]

32 minutes ago, DTLow said:

You don't have to participate in discussions

So why don't you just leave the thread like it is, and let the number speaks? Why do you also have to participate in this discussion and utter nonsense?

[DTLow 3,856]

2 hours ago, kingtrn said:

Why do you also have to participate in this discussion and utter nonsense?

For me the point of the subsequent discussion is to explore the request in more detail, alternatives, work-arounds etc

It can be a learning experience

[jefito 5,311]

On 10/30/2017 at 11:02 AM, Flier said:

I suspect that there were some unfortunate design decisions very early in EN's development which make a change to nested folders difficult without an expensive and risky rewrite.

<snip>

But IMO it is probably cost and risk factors that keep them from implementing what they really should have.

If you follow the history of the thread, then I think you'll probably see that this is an intentional stance on the part of Evernote (look for posts by @engberg), rather than making a virtue out of necessity. My take is that they have tended to emulate GMail's structure more closely than anything else: GMail has some predefined folders, but not nested folders; these are like Evernote notebooks. GMail also has labels, which can be nested, but are more like tags (sadly, the GMail also documentation uses the term 'folders' to describe them, but they are not folder-like in that they can be applied to multiple emails). From everything I've seen from Evernote employee postings, here and elsewhere, they just don't seem to think that nested notebooks are necessary. That being said, there may be added resistance due to cost of implementation, but I really think that the architectural choices here are philosophical.

[synapticsage 0]

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet? There's a reason computer file systems have settled on allowing stacked organization. We needed our file systems to match the shape of the information we planned to store. Then as now, the shape of information in our environment/workplace is nested. It's hierarchical and nested. Evernote will be at best an unsharpened blade until it has this feature.

[gazumped 6,879]

23 hours ago, synapticsage said:

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet? There's a reason computer file systems have settled on allowing stacked organization. We needed our file systems to match the shape of the information we planned to store. Then as now, the shape of information in our environment/workplace is nested. It's hierarchical and nested. Evernote will be at best an unsharpened blade until it has this feature.

Google seem to be doing quite well with an essentially flat structure,  and it's simply not true (IMHO) that information has a nested shape.  My receipts live in several 'folders' by virtue of their tags,  including <project> <expenses> <travel> and <tax>.  If I had one location to find them I'd forever be sorting through to find the ones relevant to my current query.  While Evernote invite and welcome feedback,  this isn't a democracy - they're under no obligation to deliver features that we request - and for whatever reason,  there's no sign we will ever get sub-folders or any development of the current very limited hierarchical structure. 

If you really need folders,  then check out other options...

[DTLow 3,856]

23 hours ago, synapticsage said:

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet?

Evernote has seriously built an organization method based on Tags methodology

Not sure about the "shape" of information but tags allow me to retrieve data when I need it
Also, I can use an unlimited heirarchy to organize tags on my Mac

[ruudhein 25]

On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet?

Dunno, but over the years I've learned to live with software limitations instead of holding out for the perfect match of features to arise. If I require 5 features, one product will have 4 of them , another another 5, but neither of them all 5. 

So for Evernote I use tags, nested tags, and ParentName.ChildName notation where needed.

Given that Evernote is how it is, that works better for me too because notebook information is not exported in ENEX files whereas tag information is exported in ENEX files. So, using this workaround I have nesting, with the flexibility of tags, and all export information I would want.

[jefito 5,311]

On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

Seriously, why is this not a feature yet?

This topic, which is admittedly a long one, contains some hints about it from at least one Evernote employee, and some surmise about why it's not a part of Evernote yet. You could read the rest of the topic, or I could recap the surmise again, but maybe yours was just a rhetorical question (though you did say "seriously"), in which case I'd reply "just because that's what Evernote wanted."

On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

There's a reason computer file systems have settled on allowing stacked organization. We needed our file systems to match the shape of the information we planned to store.

Funnily enough, current-day hierarchical file systems do not mirror the shape of actual human information particularly well (e.g., many items can belong in multiple locations, not just in a single slot in a tree). And also funnily enough, you can organize your Evernote notes using tags, which are indeed hierarchical as well as being associative. Further, you can link to other notes, and thereby model a network if you want, something which a strict hierarchy cannot do.

On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

Then as now, the shape of information in our environment/workplace is nested. It's hierarchical and nested.

I put it to you that that ain't necessarily so.

On 12/27/2017 at 1:37 PM, synapticsage said:

Evernote will be at best an unsharpened blade until it has this feature.

Oh wait, you're looking for a blade? Sorry; but Evernote is a screwdriver...

[Angel plancarte 0]

On 8/17/2008 at 4:19 PM, cswsteve said:

I think Evernote is a fantastic product, especially with the iPhone integration. I currently use a program called UltraRecall because of it's heavy use of subfolders. This makes organizing my data very logical. I was wondering if Evernotes has a way to create subnotebooks under existing notebooks to help group numerious notebooks together?

Example Notebooks:

Work

Clients

Customer1

Customer2

Customer3

Customer4

Personal

Electronics

Web Clips

 

[gazumped 6,879]

On 12/31/2017 at 5:59 AM, Angel plancarte said:

I was wondering if Evernotes has a way to create subnotebooks under existing notebooks to help group numerious notebooks together?

Hi.  No,  sorry;  Stacks,  Notebooks,  Notes is all you get - try Tags which are 'virtual subnotebooks' and will group notes together if you search "tag:<mytag>".  You might want to avoid spaces in tag names,  which occasionally cause issues...

 

[kinshuk4 13]

Hi Evernote Team,

   It will be great if you provide the feature of nested stack. I have lots of notebooks related to different subjects, and it really helps to nest them under the stacks, but even stacks have groupings. I have to scroll a lot on mac and then find my correct notebook. Can you please provide this feature, I don't want to use tags. Thanks.

[gazumped 6,879]

Asked for many times (and often very loudly) over the years,  but never provided;  lots of possible reasons,  but Evernote (so far) has remained silent on whether,  when or how far they might consider this.  I'd be pretty certain it's not gonna happen in the short term - for a variable but long definition of 'short'. 

Not being nasty,  but there are two options - one of which you dislike.  The other one is find some other software that works for you... 

[Kirkmanamos 0]

I really could use nested notebooks, it works better for me then a nested tag system 

[DTLow 3,856]

4 hours ago, Kirkmanamos said:

I really could use nested notebooks, it works better for me then a nested tag system 

Evernote doesn't offer nested notebooks, but there is a Stack feature; in effect 1 level of nesting

[asowers 3]

I just purchased the premium edition of evernote and I am extremely disappointed you can't organize like this. I need the exact same organization that Pivo describes above. One Note does this... I guess I should have just stuck with them. 

[DTLow 3,856]

On 2018-01-20 at 7:57 AM, asowers said:

I need the exact same organization that Pivo describes above.

Just to be clear, @Pivo is asking to organize notes, using nested Stacks

Evernote organizes notes in Notebooks.  
Notebooks can be organized in Stacks

For additional levels of organization, Evernote has a Tag feature.

[Feanor33 1]

Tags are not, in my opinion, a way of organising notes. They create links between notes that wouldn't normally be together, to aid searching and finding notes. They aren't for organisation, they're for finding organisationally separate notes.

Evernote's facebook poll showed clearly that most people use notebooks for organising notes:

Ideally, from the way Evernote is set up, you should organise your notes with notebooks and add extra tags to aid searching/finding. That's a brilliant system, because it combines structure and flexibility. That's the way blogs do it: organised by date, then use tags for finding; almost every website keeps tags separate from the menus, for very good reasons. They aren't mean to do the same thing. They are meant to complement each other.

But the weird thing in Evernote's 'answer' is that it creates conflict between notebooks and tags: use tags, they say, for hierarchy. That nearly destroys the purpose of notebooks, which are very structured (a note can only exist in one notebook, while it can have multiple tags). And it doesn't let tags do their job: I now can't separate my structure from my finding.

I think Evernote's resistance is that allowing only three levels (notes, notebooks, notebook stacks) forces people to be really organised. It's certainly helped me in that regard, and it gives their product an edge for good reason. 

So I like limited hierarchy. But I think they've misjudged the number of notebook levels necessary for people to get organised. I think one more level would fix things. The reason is this.

Think of how people organise their lives. Nearly every person on the planet has the same basic groups of responsibility in their life: personal, work, family, hobbies, social clubs/activities, which is a superb way to organise things, because they don't often cross over each other. Each responsibility has distinct blocks, like personal (exercise; diet stuff; spiritual; documents; contacts; photos; garden), work (Grants; several Experiments; Projects). And here is the catch: Some of those blocks are fine as a single notebook (eg personal contacts). But some aren't, like work projects which can warrant entire notebooks just for emails, another for meetings, another for statistical analysis, another for report writing. If people used Evernote for just one area of life, like work, you wouldn't need the extra level. Problem is, they do.

To illustrate the problem. I have a notebook stack for work (and a bunch of others for other areas of life). I am currently writing several papers (just like many people would have several projects running at work) simultaneously for work. Each one is using a separate dataset, a separate set of experiments, separate emails, separate meetings notes. So each paper warrants several notebooks. But I can't do that unless I take the paper outside the work notebook stack and make a stack for each paper. That's a pain, because it stuffs up my organisation and makes it difficult to find my stacks in a spot where they shouldn't be.

Add at least one more level to notebooks. Call it a shelf or something. Make it graphically distinct. But add more levels to notebooks.

 

[DTLow 3,856]

12 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Tags are not, in my opinion, a way of organising notes. They create links between notes that wouldn't normally be together, to aid searching and finding notes. They aren't for organisation, they're for finding organisationally separate notes.

It might depend on your purpose for organizing notes;
"create links between notes that wouldn't normally be together, to aid searching and finding notes" works for me 

>>Evernote's facebook poll showed clearly that most people use notebooks for organising notes

There's a story that if Ford had asked his customers what they wanted, they would have said faster horses

>>from the way Evernote is set up, you should organise your notes with notebooks

Evernote is set up with two attributes that can be assigned to notes; Notebooks and Tags
Its more than just different names; each have specific features

 

 

 

 

These are the tools.  It's your choice how you use them
I use - tags for organization
         - notebooks for the sync'd/local, shared, offline feature

>>Add at least one more level to notebooks.

If I was going to use notebooks for organization, I'd want unlimited hierarchy
Also, and increase in the max, multiple entries per note, and search features (all the tag features)

>>So don't be a Neanderthal. Get your anthropology straight. Call it a shelf or something. Make it graphically distinct.

I'm not strong on antropology, but I don't think organizing data was a priority for Neanderthals.  
Did they actually use notes, notebooks and tags? 
It's conceivable they had shelfs
Does this have any connection to Evernote?

[gazumped 6,879]

Not looking to start (or resume) the whole tags vs hierarchy debate,  but Evernote have never shown any sign that they are considering changing their view on this.  That bird,  as far as we know has flown, despite the ongoing lobby to the contrary.

Plus I do work with hierarchical systems dealing with (for instance) technical faults,  and the fix for one fault may easily be the same for several others.  In many structured filing systems there's no single 'obvious' place to store information.  In a flat tagged system,  the single solution can be tagged with all the cases to which it refers.

(It is extremely bad practice to duplicate anything,  from addresses to fixes,  because these things are dynamic - and when they change,  can you be sure you got all the instances in which they appear?)

I totally sympathize with anyone who finds the tag system frustrating and unworkable (I was there myself for some months),  but while it sounds unhelpful it is a fact that to use this app,  that's the system that is in place.  If you need something different,  there are alternative systems...

[jefito 5,311]

10 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Tags are not, in my opinion, a way of organising notes. They create links between notes that wouldn't normally be together, to aid searching and finding notes. They aren't for organisation, they're for finding organisationally separate notes.

Bad start, right there: your opinion notwithstanding, tags are a de facto way of organizing notes, conceptally identical to keywords, labels, and categories. How is "creating links between notes" (your definition, mind) not an organizational method? Show me a definition of 'organization' that excludes what tags do. Indeed, tags are great for categorization, a very powerful organizational concept that recognizes that not all of the objects of interest (notes) belong to exactly one spot in a hierarchy. Notes don't have to live in the same notebook to be organized.

10 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Ideally, from the way Evernote is set up, you should organise your notes with notebooks and add extra tags to aid searching/finding. That's a brilliant system, because it combines structure and flexibility.

Or you could have one big notebook, and just organize using tags. There's no one ideal here, there are only better or worse ways that work for specific use cases.

10 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

But the weird thing in Evernote's 'answer' is that it creates conflict between notebooks and tags: use tags, they say, for hierarchy. That nearly destroys the purpose of notebooks, which are very structured (a note can only exist in one notebook, while it can have multiple tags). 

There is *zero* conflict between notebooks and tags.You can use tags to create hierarchy, for sure, but you don't need to (I don't). Regardless, Evernote notebooks are useful in and of themselves as designating discrete collections of notes for sharing, or for keeping on a mobile device. And tag hierarchy doesn't destroy anything about notebooks; indeed they can cut across rigid notebook divisions. I can organize (identify, categorize) notes that belong together in different notebooks.

Notebooks, stacks, and tags are conceptually both filters on your note collection. The difference is that while a note belongs to exactly one notebook (and hence zero or one stack), it can have multiple tags. Aside from that, you can filter your notes by a notebook, a stack (multiple notebooks) or a set of tag, thus enabling you to look on a subset of related notes.

Sorry, but you really haven't made your case very well (and name-checking 'Neanderthals' doesn't help you). If you dig back into what tags are and can do, you should be able to come up with a good scheme to solve your stated problem:

10 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

To illustrate the problem. I have a notebook stack for work (and a bunch of others for other areas of life). I am currently writing several papers (just like many people would have several projects running at work) simultaneously for work. Each one is using a separate dataset, a separate set of experiments, separate emails, separate meetings notes. So each paper warrants several notebooks. But I can't do that unless I take the paper outside the work notebook stack and make a stack for each paper. That's a pain, because it stuffs up my organisation and makes it difficult to find my stacks in a spot where they shouldn't be.

How about:

One notebook per paper. Tags: 'Dataset', 'Email', 'Experiment', 'Meeting', etc. One note per dataset, email, experiment, or meeting. Reuse the same tags across papers. When you want to work on a paper, select its notebook. You see all of its notes.

[Feanor33 1]

I wasn't intending to revive the debate (I withdraw the Neanderthal remark), but thanks for the comments. I would like Evernote to add another level, so I gave my 2c. Like I said, limiting the hierarchy forces you to be organised, but I think they have got the wrong number of levels.

10 hours ago, jefito said:

How about:

One notebook per paper. Tags: 'Dataset', 'Email', 'Experiment', 'Meeting', etc. One note per dataset, email, experiment, or meeting. Reuse the same tags across papers. When you want to work on a paper, select its notebook. You see all of its notes.

 

Putting things in a notebook, then searching by tag(s) to find the subgroups is unworkable, because I can't remember every tag. I use Evernote for almost everything in my life. There would be a lot of tags.

If I organise things by a tag hierarchy, I can't search all the notes in a top level tag easily, as I can with notebooks. If I click a top level tag, it returns all the notes below it, but if you then search, it searches all notes.

Finally, it's really easy using drag and drop to organise my notes with notebooks. But with tags, it's quite a bit harder. To move notes between tags, you have to type the tag and delete the old one. That's two steps, instead of dragging and dropping. And I also have to remember what tag it should go under (I can't use drag and drop to find where it's going), and not do a typo (it's easy to do) and file it somewhere else.

If you can show ways around these frustrations, I'd be grateful.

This is a consequence of wanting notes to only be in one location. Tags are not conducive to that end. I agree they are an organisational structure (my bad), but you've sharpened what I was trying to say:

Most notes (like most things in the universe with a name of any kind) have only one primary defining feature: Work notes are first and foremost about work, not anything else. Tags, by their nature, do not easily recognise a primary feature, although they pick up non-primary features easily and can accommodate the messiness of non-primary hierarchies. Notebooks do recognise the primary defining feature of each note. The primary feature of a note is nested, however. It has a single chain of hierarchy associated with its primariness (that's what you used to classify it as primary). If you had more than one chain, the feature wouldn't be primary, it would be ambiguous (is it classified as this or that or both?). The primary nature of a note is excellent for organisation, because it is where it is most dissimilar from everything else. Let me know if you find my reasoning faulty.

Notebooks are like taxonomy: a species can only be classified one way. Tags are like attributes: a species can have several colours. Especially in creative work, it's very helpful to do the latter. The seven major classifications of taxonomy (Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species) are enough to adequately classify all of life on earth. My question is whether the three levels in Evernote are adequate to classify everybody's notes in Evernote. To capture most of the major sources of variation in human life with the fewest possible categories, I think you need four levels (Areas of responsiblity>Roles/Projects>Role/Project parts>Information block); I don't think three is enough. If I only had work in evernote, I'd be fine - I'd have cut out one level. But I don't - I have work, family, hobbies etc. 

I suspect Evernote has run trials with different types of hierarchies, and three came out best, so I'm probably wasting my time here. But if they haven't, that's what they should do.

[DTLow 3,856]

14 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Most notes (like most things in the universe with a name of any kind) have only one primary defining feature

Yes, notes can have various "defining features";
some "features" could be considered primary (depends on context)

For ID'ing the notes with these features, we can use Tags and/or Notebooks
Use whatever tool or combination works best for you

I use Tags
I'm not concerned if a "feature" is primary or secondary, but I could prefix my tagnames with "Primary"

 >>I think you need four levels... I don't think three is enough. If I only had work in evernote, I'd be fine - I'd have cut out one level.  

All the levels can be represented in Evernote
Stacks/notebooks offer 2 levels; tags offer unlimited level.
(This request is asking for more levels for notebooks)

>>This is a consequence of wanting notes to only be in one location.

I can't see "location" for notes; nor a single location
I'm more comfortable with notes having one or multiple "features"

>>I can't remember every tag.

I have the same problem remembering every tag or notebook.  
I make use of the lists to aid in assignment;
also a naming standard so classes sort together alphabetically

>>I can't search all the notes in a top level tag easily, as I can with notebooks.

Top level tag search is actually an Evernote/Windows feature
I make use of wildcards, for example   tag:Budget*   gives me all my budget tags

>>Finally, it's really easy using drag and drop to organise my notes with notebooks.

Agreed.  I can drag and drop in the taglist; it adds the tag to the note, but doesn't delete tags

[JMichaelTX 3,971]

2 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Notebooks are like taxonomy: a species can only be classified one way. Tags are like attributes: a species can have several colours. Especially in creative work, it's very helpful to do the latter. The seven major classifications of taxonomy (Kingdom, Phylum, Class, Order, Family, Genus, Species) are enough to adequately classify all of life on earth.

Great example.

To your point, to achieve the most effective organization, we need BOTH Notebooks (hierarchical organization) and Tags (more like indexes than anything else).

I see no reason to berate either.

Here's an interesting article:  Tags or folders? Depends on the file. 

[CalS 3,759]

14 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

I use Evernote for almost everything in my life. There would be a lot of tags.

Depends upon the use case.  I have about 400 tags across 6 notebooks with 36k notes.  My view of the world is it is key to keep tag names as simple yet representative as possible while using them to cull search results, and then use search if need be.  Not saying more levels of notebooks is a bad thing, just for some use cases they aren't needed.

[jefito 5,311]

It's one thing to say that you want a notebook hierarchy, it's entirely another to claim that tags are not useful for organization.

 

13 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Putting things in a notebook, then searching by tag(s) to find the subgroups is unworkable, because I can't remember every tag. I use Evernote for almost everything in my life. There would be a lot of tags.

And yet many people, including me, do exactly that, because that's what Evernote offers for organizational facilities. You just need to understand how to use them effectively.

So first there seem to be a couple of models for tag use: one is a hierarchical model that is used like a file folder tree for navigational purposes. The second is as a mini language or vocabulary that is used to describe  notes for purposes of searching. Evernote seems better set up for the latter, but the former is also feasible. You are correct in that there's no unified hierarchical browsing starting at notebooks and moving into tags; I think that the UI could be improved there (you can also mimic that to some degree by mirroring you notebook list using tags, but that's onerous) . The latter system is the one I use, though.

As far as too many tags, I don't find that to be a problem: you just tag as you would describe a note; notes then can have multiple tags (e.g. in my world, a note might have tags "software" , "algorithm", and "C++". The UI in the search panel will help you to narrow down your tag list to tags that are applicable in the current note list context: I look in my Development notebook, then open up the tag picker. I see "algorithm" first, so I select that; the tag list narrows down, I see "C++" and click that. The tag list shrinks again, but I see the note I'm looking for, and don't need to look further.

My tag language is small, but it has combinatoric richness. I have <300 tags across two accounts, and most of them are short, simple and common. I add new ones only occasionally. Your vocabulary as an English speaker is somewhere north of 10,000 words, I'd guess,; much larger than my tag language . I never use the tag tree to navigate my notes;  frequently I can just type them in the search panel, or use the tag picker control as above.

I really, really do not like clicking up and down hierarchical structures, including file systems. Done enough of that in my life; if I can search effectively and get a result of < 10 results, I can pick things out by eye. That's my Evernote strategy.

15 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

If I organise things by a tag hierarchy, I can't search all the notes in a top level tag easily, as I can with notebooks. If I click a top level tag, it returns all the notes below it, but if you then search, it searches all notes.

The tag picker UI can help there to some degree; it would probably be nicer for some folks if it exhibited the hierarchy to facilitate that kind of navigation.

15 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

This is a consequence of wanting notes to only be in one location. Tags are not conducive to that end. I agree they are an organisational structure (my bad), but you've sharpened what I was trying to say:

Notes already exist in one location,, one notebook. That they can be found using different approaches just speaks to the power of tags. A tag isn't really a location; it's an adjective.

15 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Most notes (like most things in the universe with a name of any kind) have only one primary defining feature: Work notes are first and foremost about work, not anything else.

Strongly disagree there. Most things in the universe have multiple attributes, none of which are primary in and of themselves. What's important is context. What's primary about my C++ algorithm? Is it the "algorithm" part? The "C++" part? Depends on what I need at the time I'm searching. 

15 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

Notebooks are like taxonomy: a species can only be classified one way. Tags are like attributes: a species can have several colours. Especially in creative work, it's very helpful to do the latter.

"Taxonomy" is really a general term; it doesn't just mean the biological tree of life, though that's certainly a common usage: https://en.oxforddictionaries.com/definition/taxonomy

The branch of science concerned with classification, especially of organisms; systematics.

Example sentences

Synonyms

1.1 The classification of something, especially organisms.

‘the taxonomy of these fossils’

 

More example sentences

1.2 count noun A scheme of classification.

‘a taxonomy of smells’

Regardless, biological entities can be classified in different ways: you could start with flying vs flightlessness, for example, and flesh it out to include all creatures, just in a different way. They're all just attributes (or categories, or labels, whatever). Not to mention that some of the existing categorization can be capricious/contentious (https://www.theatlantic.com/science/archive/2017/02/to-name-a-mockingbird/518013/). But to me, taxonomy just means a vocabulary for classification, and doesn't imply a single tree.

16 hours ago, Feanor33 said:

I suspect Evernote has run trials with different types of hierarchies, and three came out best, so I'm probably wasting my time here. But if they haven't, that's what they should do.

That's not really true. Evernote, at least in its current incarnation (that's 9 or 10 years old now) was designed with notebooks and tags. Stacks were added later on (at least a couple of years; I forget now) as a way to organize notebooks for UI purposes: a flat list of the then 100 max notebooks (now 250) isn't great to work with; they're kind of bolted on, architecturally. The earliest posts by @Dengberg in this topic speak to that.

I do understand that Evernote's system doesn't jibe with everyone's view of the world. I can't dissuade you from yours, and I don't mean to tell you not to request that Evernote support yours better. But given the current state of Evernote, I do want to help others -- if they're interested, and if possible -- in seeing how Evernote's current system can work for them, because that's what we have to work with today...

[Kaeren 0]

Our brains all think in different ways. Some of us are visual learners, some kinesthetic, and others auditory. Some of us are lateral thinkers, others linear thinkers. What's my point? Humanity is diverse, and discrimination in work methods is 19th century. I need the notebook hierarchy! To me, everything is centered around notebooks, and I have 187 of them, most of them in stacks of some sort. Scrolling through my list of notebooks is tedious (yes, I can search, but sometimes scrolling is more straightforward). And what is going to happen to me when I reach that limit of 250 notebooks? 

Please, Evernote, bring in stacked notebooks for those of us that need to work this way.

[DTLow 3,856]

On 2018-02-16 at 9:55 AM, Kaeren said:

I need the notebook hierarchy!

Please add your vote to the request; voting buttons are at the top left corner of the discussion

>>Scrolling through my list of notebooks is tedious

I found it helps if I stick to a naming convention, including prefixing so groups sort together alphabetically.  For example, instead of Red, White, Blue; I use Colour-Red, Colour-White, Colour-Blue

>>And what is going to happen to me when I reach that limit of 250 notebooks? 

 A different discussion, but here are some alternatives

• Upgrade your account.  Business accounts have a 10,000 Notebook limit.
• Make use of the Tags feature; 100,000 limit.  I'm running with over 300 tags.  
  In some ways, it's just a switch in names, but there are also feature differences

Here's a link for a request to increase the limit.  Please add your vote 

 

[MancChris 0]

Simply put, I would find it very useful if Evernote could allow for a directory structure for organising notebooks and sub notebooks similar to how we can use folders and sub folders on Windows.

So for instance,  if I want to organise notes for writing a novel, I could call the main notebook 'Novel', and then have sub notebooks called 'characters', 'theme', etc.  Within 'Character'  I could then have sub-notebooks like 'David', 'Sarah', etc containing notes about those characters.

Trying to use tags seems unnecessarily complicated when a simple (and visual) structure would be so simple and effective to use.  Perhaps Evernote is simply not set up in such a way to allow this, in which case fine, but personally if if this was possible, it would really help improve an already great product.

[SirPPingTon 4]

On 17/08/2008 at 11:37 PM, engberg said:

We don't have sub-notebooks, but you can organize tags into a hierarchy. This may allow you to set up the organizational scheme you're looking for.

There is a danger of this route, as you can easily double tag and remove tags by accident. Then you have non-tagged notes which live in an abyss. A notebook is a place, not a tag, the note lives there. 

[SirPPingTon 4]

On 21/02/2018 at 1:58 AM, DTLow said:

 At present, Evernote only allows a two level hierarchy for Notebooks.  This is implemented by grouping notebooks into Stacks

Please add your vote to the request above.  Voting buttons are in the top left corner of the discussion 

>>if I want to organise notes for writing a novel, I could call the main notebook 'Novel', and then have sub notebooks called 'characters', 'theme', etc.  Within 'Character'  I could then have sub-notebooks like 'David', 'Sarah', etc containing notes about those characters.

A work-around is to use a standard naming convention; for example

• Novel
• Novel - Characters
• Novel - Characters - David
• Novel - Characters - Sarah
• Novel - Theme

 

Surely from that, the UI can break that into notebooks. Whether or not they are saved like that on the back end no-one cares. 

When GMail first had labels, they were flat too. Then there was a GMail labs feature which would convert labels named "Novel/Characters" into a Novel and Characters subfolder within the UI. The label was exactly the same and on non supporting clients that's how it was shown. It is just a UI representation, not a whole design change. 

[Flier 15]

@SirPPingTon, what you are discovering is something that many of us have long since discovered:  A request for nested folders here elicits two classes of responses.  First, there are  people who explain in great detail that tags are a workaround for the application's deficient design.  Second, there are responses from fan-boys and Evernote employees to the effect that the application does not have nested folders and that Evernote has never shown the slightest inclination to fix the problem, so you can just forget about it.  Neither class of responders has the slightest interest in the merits of the argument.  IOW, we are wasting our time.

I'm still subscribed to this thread, I guess for the amusement of seeing the little operetta replayed from time to time.  Or maybe I am subconsciously optimistic.  I dunno.

[jefito 5,311]

9 hours ago, SirPPingTon said:

There is a danger of this route, as you can easily double tag and remove tags by accident. Then you have non-tagged notes which live in an abyss. A notebook is a place, not a tag, the note lives there. 

So live in the abyss no longer: finding your untagged notes is easy: -tag:* 

There's no danger in double tagging; in fact that's extremely useful. And to reinforce @Dengberg's point, with this ability, a note can reside in two separate hierarchies without anything exploding.

14 minutes ago, Flier said:

Evernote has never shown the slightest inclination to fix the problem, so you can just forget about it.  Neither class of responders has the slightest interest in the merits of the argument.  IOW, we are wasting our time.

In fact, I'd say that Evernote hasn't really shown much interest in even accepting that this is a problem. I think that the issue is pretty well understood, even by us fanboys, but changing the Evernote design is not up to us non-employees. The design is the design, sufficient for some, and yes, deficient for others. Big deal. I don't waste my time hanging around OneNote forums yelling at them because their design doesn't work for me. I have found Evernote's design useful, and might work for others, which is why workarounds are offered...

[DTLow 3,856]

1 hour ago, Flier said:

elicits two classes of responses.

There's a third response class, illustrated by your post   BooHoo 

>>slightest interest in the merits of the argument

To indicate your support for the request, please use the voting buttons  in the top left corner of the discussion

If you're interested is organization solutions, review the posts

[DTLow 3,856]

10 hours ago, SirPPingTon said:

Surely from that, the UI can break that into notebooks. Whether or not they are saved like that on the back end no-one cares. 

That's an interesting idea.  I have seen UI's that group data in the list

[Shellah 9]

PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE, PLEASE.

This is the sole reason I have not adopted Evernote, even though I have attempted to use it multiple times over recent years.

I have wasted hours trying to use it the way Evernote wants me to, trying to design tags, trying to label folders in such a way as to tier them.  I have spent hours researching other people's hacks to make Evernote do something like this; and trying to find plug-ins or shells that might do it.  I have tried (and failed) to use Evernote in conjunction with MS OneNote and with several task managers like Asana, ToDoist, etc.  I have tried tools that port from Evernote to another app including TaskClone and IFTTT.  Nothing has worked for me.  

Evernote needs infinitely nested notebooks and infinitely nested folders.  No two ways about it.

[DTLow 3,856]

14 hours ago, Shellah said:

Evernote needs infinitely nested notebooks and infinitely nested folders.  No two ways about it.

To indicate your support for this request, use the voting buttons at the top left corner of the discussion.

Evernote does not have a folders element.
If you can accept a different name, Evernote has Notebooks and Tags.
A new element  Spaces is currently being rolled out.

No Nested Notebooks, however notebooks can be collected in a Stack.  So, a 2 level hierarchy.

The Tag elementary has infinite hierarchy (Mac/Win).  I use this feature for tag organization

[JMichaelTX 3,971]

14 hours ago, Shellah said:

I have wasted hours trying to use it the way Evernote wants me to, trying to design tags, trying to label folders in such a way as to tier them.  I have spent hours researching other people's hacks to make Evernote do something like this;

I agree with you -- Evernote needs to provide us with hierarchical Notebooks/SubNotebooks.

But, until they do, I have found a system that works almost as good.  I don't know if this is one of the methods you have already explored, but you might take a look to see if it will work for you:

See Using Tags as Pseudo Notebooks (pNB)  

[Shellah 9]

3 minutes ago, JMichaelTX said:

agree with you -- Evernote needs to provide us with hierarchical Notebooks/SubNotebooks.

But, until they do, I have found a system that works almost as good.  I don't know if this is one of the methods you have already explored, but you might take a look to see if it will work for you:

Thanks, yes, I tried that. Not serviceable. 

[DTLow 3,856]

On 2018-03-02 at 7:43 AM, Shellah said:

I tried that. Not serviceable.

Can you provide more details?

One issue I found with a tag work-around is that the hierarchy is not displayed on our mobile devices.
We've gone from a two level stack/notebook hierarchy, to no hierarchy

[Shellah 9]

6 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Can you provide more details?

Since multi-level nested folders and nested notebooks has been requested by hundreds of users over several years, I don't think there's much more I can add.  If you are a person who thinks in hierarchies, then you, like me, literally experience a vertigo when looking at all your notes and notebooks in the Evernote product.   Evernote is basically your very own mini-World Wide Web. You ask for (search, filter) for what you want and call it up.  But you have to already know what you want.  It is useless for organizing or project management as it is.  There is no structure to organize it.  It is only for storage and retrieval. Imagine you were intent on logically, methodically carrying out projects using *all* the information on the entire web.  You would go bonkers without organizing the whole web into tiered folders like a folder tree on a Windows PC folder directory.  That is the point of organizing Evernote with such a structure.

[Flier 15]

" A new element  Spaces is currently being rolled out. "

Quite funny, actually. Now they have a three-level limited on nested folders instead of just two.  Maybe in a few months they will invent a four-level hierarchy, etc.  Clearly they know this lack of folder hierarchy is a problem, but they persist in adding kludges instead of just biting the bullet and doing what they should have done in the first place.  The underlying code must be a such a gawdawful mess that they don't dare touch it.

I mostly use Evernote for random web clips.  Anything that needs organization stays either in my email reader's folder hierarchy or in the Windows folder system.  Kind of a PITA to have two sets of folders relating to the same subject but that's the best I can do given EN's limitations.

[DTLow 3,856]

16 minutes ago, Shellah said:

I don't think there's much more I can add.(re:  I tried that. Not serviceable)

I understand the need for organizationhierarchy; I actually was looking for details on the serviceable part

[DTLow 3,856]

On 2018-03-02 at 8:11 AM, Flier said:

Now they have a three-level limited on nested folders instead of just two. (re: Spaces)

I'm actually seeing Spaces as an aternative to Stacks.  We still have two levels for notebooks

The Stacks objective is to organize notebooks into distinct groups
The Spaces objective was related to sharing and collaboration

>>adding kludges instead of just biting the bullet and doing what they should have done in the first place.

The Stacks feature was added to organize Notebooks into collections;
And yes, the implementation was a kludge - the underlying code is messy
I don't think Evernote has ever acknowledged there is a need for notebook hierarchy

[JMichaelTX 3,971]

7 minutes ago, Shellah said:

If you are a person who thinks in hierarchies, then you, like me, literally experience a vertigo when looking at all your notes and notebooks in the Evernote product.   Evernote is basically your very own mini-World Wide Web. You ask for (search, filter) for what you want and call it up.  But you have to already know what you want.  It is useless for organizing or project management as it is.  There is no structure to organize it.

I understand and feel your pain.  However, I have found that Pseudo Notebooks (tags) can work just like hierarchical Notebooks.  Did you read the topic I linked to above?  It explains all this in detail with examples.  If you have a question about pNBs, please post in that topic/thread.

[tavor 441]

26 minutes ago, Shellah said:

Evernote is basically your very own mini-World Wide Web. You ask for (search, filter) for what you want and call it up.  But you have to already know what you want.  It is useless for organizing or project management as it is.  There is no structure to organize it.  It is only for storage and retrieval. Imagine you were intent on logically, methodically carrying out projects using *all* the information on the entire web.  You would go bonkers without organizing the whole web into tiered folders like a folder tree on a Windows PC folder directory.  That is the point of organizing Evernote with such a structure.

The problem with your world wide web analogy is that we've already had a market experiment as it relates to hierarchy vs search on the web. Back in Yahoo's prime, it used hierarchies to categorize information on the internet. Then Google came along with a great search product and obliterated Yahoo.