Nesting Multiple Notebooks / Creating Sub-Notebooks

[cswsteve 85]

I think Evernote is a fantastic product, especially with the iPhone integration. I currently use a program called UltraRecall because of it's heavy use of subfolders. This makes organizing my data very logical. I was wondering if Evernotes has a way to create subnotebooks under existing notebooks to help group numerious notebooks together?

Example Notebooks:

Work

Clients

Customer1

Customer2

Customer3

Customer4

Personal

Electronics

Web Clips

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

Wow...trifecta!

 

Er...missed Gaz's post...quadfecta.

[gazumped 11,665]

Sounds like something from a veterinary manual..

[Metrodon 2,184]

We do all love a new hierarchy thread don't we?

[vrooney 0]

Thank you everyone for the quick replies. I've tinkered with the tags but will look at them in more detail. I guess it's a matter of workflow usage coming from other products.

 

 

Vince

[jefito 5,589]

A couple of things to note:

 

A notebook only contains notes, not stacks and not other notebooks.

A stack contains only notebooks, and not other stacks or notes.

A note belongs to exactly one notebook, but may have multiple tags.

 

Notebooks are the coin of the realm when it comes to sharing groups of notes, keeping local notes (notes that are not synced to the Evernote server, for desktop apps) and offline notes (notes that are always available on mobile devices, even when you're not connected to the internet -- a premium feature). You can only use these facilities using notebooks, and not stacks or arbitrary groups of notes. Consider only creating notebooks when you must.

 

Searches have essentially three contexts: a single notebook, a single stack, or all notes (some clients allow you to search "personal" only or "business" only notes, but that's just behind-the scenes flim-flammery -- I'm talking about searches that use the search language, including saved searches). You can only have one context per search: either a single notebook or a single stack; otherwise it's all notes. Since stacks can hold multiple notebooks, that's the only way that you can search a strict subset of your notebooks at one time. Note that you cannot search for notes *not* in a particular notebook or stack.

 

Tags go across notebooks. This gives them a lot of flexibility in terms of categorization, since multiple tags can apply to any single note. You can also search for notes that do not have a particular tag. Note that the tag hierarchy is for organization only; tag searches do not take into consideration a tag's sub-tags when searching.

[jefito 5,589]

We do all love a new hierarchy thread don't we?

Apparently we do.

[CaptainTime 94]

A couple of things to note:

 

A notebook only contains notes, not stacks and not other notebooks.

A stack contains only notebooks, and not other stacks or notes.

A note belongs to exactly one notebook, but may have multiple tags.

 

Notebooks are the coin of the realm when it comes to sharing groups of notes, keeping local notes (notes that are not synced to the Evernote server, for desktop apps) and offline notes (notes that are always available on mobile devices, even when you're not connected to the internet -- a premium feature). You can only use these facilities using notebooks, and not stacks or arbitrary groups of notes. Consider only creating notebooks when you must.

 

Searches have essentially three contexts: a single notebook, a single stack, or all notes (some clients allow you to search "personal" only or "business" only notes, but that's just behind-the scenes flim-flammery -- I'm talking about searches that use the search language, including saved searches). You can only have one context per search: either a single notebook or a single stack; otherwise it's all notes. Since stacks can hold multiple notebooks, that's the only way that you can search a strict subset of your notebooks at one time. Note that you cannot search for notes *not* in a particular notebook or stack.

 

Tags go across notebooks. This gives them a lot of flexibility in terms of categorization, since multiple tags can apply to any single note. You can also search for notes that do not have a particular tag. Note that the tag hierarchy is for organization only; tag searches do not take into consideration a tag's sub-tags when searching.

Great explanation, Jeff.

 

I should mention that I was really frustrated with the lack of hierarchical structure with Evernote when I first started, but once I fully embraced tags, I realized that I could find any note faster by good use of tags than by drilling down through the hierarchy. Now I am actually thinking I can make do with less notebooks and more tags.

[Brakkar 0]

Hi,

it's been years that I await this feature to be incorporated.

It's really annoying to be limited to 1 level of nesting folder.

When working on projects, I need more and i'm sure i'm not the only one.

 

This is the only feature missing that keep me from using Evernote for all my projects.
Any plan to add this ?

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

Hi,

it's been years that I await this feature to be incorporated.

It's really annoying to be limited to 1 level of nesting folder.

When working on projects, I need more and i'm sure i'm not the only one.

 

This is the only feature missing that keep me from using Evernote for all my projects.

Any plan to add this ?

 

• EN does not discuss their roadmap or ETAs
• There is no indication EN has any plans to add sub notebooks
• Stacks, notebooks, tags, keywords & descriptive titles are very effective at organizing & retrieving notes.  This has been discussed at great length on the board already.  Please search the board on sub notebooks/sub folders/nested notebooks/etc. for more info, should you need/want it.

[zuzubeas 0]

Just adding my voice to the forum. I completely agree that nested stacks would be amazingly useful. I know that many EN users will say "That's boring." or "You need to get over the directory/subdirectory thing and use tags.", but nested stacks would be useful for tag users or non-tag users. I need to be able to file things quickly. I collect so much random data throughout my day: pictures, one sentence notes, voice clips, whatever, and then at the end of the day I sort it into the appropriate notebook. Sure tagging works well, but sometimes I want to see all of my notes (tagged explicitly for the notebook or not) contained within one notebook. Sure, other times I want to see all relevant tagged info, but having a notebook view is more convenient for me. I just really feel that having nested stacks would be a great feature for those of us that are less tag-oriented.

 

That being said, I LOVE Evernote, and the team has done an AMAZING job creating a product I use every day, and they even make it viable to use for free with minimal advertisement. Thank you.

[jefito 5,589]

Sure tagging works well, but sometimes I want to see all of my notes (tagged explicitly for the notebook or not) contained within one notebook. Sure, other times I want to see all relevant tagged info, but having a notebook view is more convenient for me. I just really feel that having nested stacks would be a great feature for those of us that are less tag-oriented.

I really don't understand the conclusion, based on your premise (which I'm also at odds to figure out). You want to see all of your notes "contained within one notebook" (even though they're really not; btw, the phrase "tagged explicitly for the notebook" doesn't really make sense in the Evernote world: tags are not notebooks), but somehow this implies that nested stacks are the solution? I don't follow; if you want to see all of your notes, then just use the "All notebooks" feature. You don't need nested stacks for that.

That being said, I do understand that many folks would find nesting of stacks (or notebooks) useful. It's just not clear to me how your example supports that usage. Did I miss something?

[WAstarita 0]

The problem with Tags is they can get out of control.  You end up with so many of them you forget what  your options were.  I know this can be quelled through planning but they are so easy to create by accident the list becomes unweildy.  Plus they have no context.  Nesting notebooks give specific context tags cannot.

 

I learned this trying to implement the The Secret Weapon setup.  It made perfect sense until you have to do extensive tag management.  I loved it because it played to my need to over organize, which is my biggest fault.  The goal is to keep this simple and a hierarchy to guide you is the only real way to do this.

[jefito 5,589]

The problem with Tags is they can get out of control.  You end up with so many of them you forget what  your options were.  I know this can be quelled through planning but they are so easy to create by accident the list becomes unweildy.  Plus they have no context.  Nesting notebooks give specific context tags cannot.

 

I learned this trying to implement the The Secret Weapon setup.  It made perfect sense until you have to do extensive tag management.  I loved it because it played to my need to over organize, which is my biggest fault.  The goal is to keep this simple and a hierarchy to guide you is the only real way to do this.

Yes, you need to do some planning and forethought before you begin with Evernote, just as with any organizational scheme in any other endeavor.

 

This is not either-or: you can use tags *and* notebooks.

 

I only occasionally create a tag by accident (I wish it were even harder to do that), but in practice I don't find that difficult to deal with. An occasional scan over the list takes care of mistake tags.

 

Tags give themselves context (the context of description, much like adjectives),even more-so when used in conjunction with other tags, notebooks, attributes and text search. Plus tags do things that notebooks cannot: they allow you to cross-categorize notes, rather than have them be stuck in rigid hierarchies. Not everything fits in exactly one place in a hierarchy. Traipsing up and down nested hierarchies is the epitome of unwieldy-ness. Let me describe what I want, not remember where I put it.

 

I don't do extensive tag management. I keep things simple. Don't over-tag. Don't over-notebook. Don't kid yourself: hierarchy is not the only effective organizational scheme in this world.

[megsaint 441]

 The goal is to keep this simple and a hierarchy to guide you is the only real way to do this.

For my purposes, I would rephrase, the goal is to keep things simple and the best way to do that is avoid structures, such as a hierarchy, that cause you to spend too much time trying to remember where you put things.

[CaptainTime 94]

The problem with Tags is they can get out of control.  You end up with so many of them you forget what  your options were.  I know this can be quelled through planning but they are so easy to create by accident the list becomes unweildy.  Plus they have no context.  Nesting notebooks give specific context tags cannot.

 

I learned this trying to implement the The Secret Weapon setup.  It made perfect sense until you have to do extensive tag management.  I loved it because it played to my need to over organize, which is my biggest fault.  The goal is to keep this simple and a hierarchy to guide you is the only real way to do this.

I was thinking of this differently. If you have a fault that you tend to over organize, then simple using tags helps keep it simpler. The hierarchy is the complex part. Or trying to over organize by creating a tag hierarchy is also complex. I almost never have problems finding notes with search and simple tags. I have stopped using the Notebook hierarchy as a way to find things except where I am sharing a whole notebook with a client or student.

 

Yes, I do end up with many tags, but it is easy to find the one you want as they show up when you start typing. And if I created 2-3 different ways of tagging the same thing, it is easy to review my tag list and retag some note and remove tags. 

Certainly this takes less time than trying to have a tag hierarchy.

 

I am in favor of "free range" tags.

[Mashugana 0]

Thank you all so much.  I am converting my mind set to tags.  I discovered that you can nest tags into logical groups (work, home, etc.) and that you can quickly tag a not by dragging it over the tag - that made things really fast.

 

Thanks again for the help.

[TJude 1]

Using Evernote as it is, or finding another piece of software is needlessly restrictive list of the choices available.

Lobbying Evernote to support a feature you want is a perfectly legitimate choice. Nested Notebooks is an example of just such a feature, and lobbying for it's inclusion is perfectly reasonable.

Unfortunately, the choice of nested structures versus tags is a matter of the original Data Structure decision and is probably fundamental.  To Google, it makes sense since most of the data they address is unstructured and is difficult to keep a directory in a tabular format.  In Evernote, it was just a bad choice and is probably irreparable without a complete rewrite, or a performance-diminishing overlay structure.

 

Evernote is still very useful, but it really is a shame that it can't be so much more so.  Use tags where you can.  I know it's twice the work, but it will help you index important data.

[megsaint 441]

 In Evernote, it was just a bad choice and is probably irreparable without a complete rewrite, or a performance-diminishing overlay structure.

 

Evernote is still very useful, but it really is a shame that it can't be so much more so.  Use tags where you can.  I know it's twice the work, but it will help you index important data.

 

 

The fact that Evernote does not rely on what I consider to be an outdated metaphor of a filing cabinet is why I chose and continue to use Evernote. I find tags infinitely more powerful and at the same time more simple. Combined with the ability to search, I can actually find and use what I need rather than spending time trying to remember which of several possible folders I may have put something in. 

 

My larger point is that Evernote did not make a mistake. They made a considered choice that works extremely well for lots of people. It is unlikely that they are going to change anytime soon. 

 

Best of luck. 

[jefito 5,589]

Which I suppose brings me to whether or not, given the depth of change you speculate is required, nested notebooks would give you anything that a bit of familiarity with tagging wouldn't? I think probably so.

If you can nest notebooks, you then have a more flexible and discrete method of offline notebook access / notebook sharing.

It's fun to speculate, but I'm not really seeing that (I don't actually understand the bit about 'discrete method of offline access'). Might depend on how they go about implementing such properties. Does a nested notebook get shared if the parent is shared? Same question for offline access. Does a note belong to a notebook that's not its immediate parent (this goes to goes to notebook: search)? Having answered these basic questions, ow do the answers affect the flexibility and discreteness of offline access?

If EN allowed you to offline / share on the basis of a tag, that advantage would evaporate I suppose.

Tags are different beasts altogether. They can cut across the current stack / notebook hierarchy, and I'd expect them to do so across any deeper notebook hierarchy. That makes them *a lot* more flexible than notebooks in general.

[jefito 5,589]

Evernote is still very useful, but it really is a shame that it can't be so much more so.  Use tags where you can.  I know it's twice the work, but it will help you index important data.

My philosophy is somewhat different: use notebooks only where you must, and use tags for everything else.

[TJude 1]

 

My philosophy is somewhat different: use notebooks only where you must, and use tags for everything else.

 

 

Tags are indeed useful.  That notwithstanding, they are not a hierarchical structure.  They are...tags!  You're not being organized using tags - you're tagging.  That's OK if your data search needs are significantly random and your frequency of access is small.

 

Consider this.  You use evernote to keep records of product builds.  You have software products and hardware products.  Ignoring the former, you have seven families of hardware products.  Any family has 2-4 SKU's, and each SKU has 30-200 components, assembly instructions and reams of test data.  How are you going to organize efficiently with tags?

 

Tags are very useful for those component that span SKUs, but are you really going to tag each test report as "Product" and "Hardware" and "Family 4" and "SKU 3" and "FadeMarginReport27"?  Let's be real!  Then lets say you want to find those reports whose outlier case was +32dBm.  This is a real world use for evernote and it simply can't be properly done with tags!  So for those who say 'antiquated' your agenda (or simple use case) is showing.

 

As you can see, I have only great respect for the inclusion of tags.  And I believe that it's so obvious that a hierarchical structure is better, that the only conclusion left is the data structure decision is made and there is no turning back.

[megsaint 441]

And I believe that it's so obvious that a hierarchical structure is better, that the only conclusion left is the data structure decision is made and there is no turning back.

 

 

And I believe it's so obvious that hierarchical structures can be a waste of time. Did I put the car insurance information in the folder called "Car"? Or did I put it in the folder called "Bills"? Or the folder called "Financial"? Do I put the article on some of the less expected benefits of exercise under "Fitness"? Or "Mental Health"? Or "Productivity"? Do I need to make an entirely new folder for the copy of the score of Vivaldi's Gloria?  Yes, many of my notes have multiple tags; it takes but seconds to add them. Between them and searching, I  generally find what I want more quickly that trying to remember in which of the many possible folders I might have carefully filed something. Way too many things in my life cross categories. This is a real world use for Evernote. You may think it a "simple use case" but trying to keep a life full of documents organized hardly seems so to me. 

 

Needs vary. It sounds as if yours are not met by Evernote. That's ok. But to think that makes Evernote's decisions on how it should structure data some how deficient seems to indicate a certain rigidity of thought. Perhaps it's all that hierarchical filing?  

 

Best of luck. 

[GregBulmash 0]

 

Sure tagging works well, but sometimes I want to see all of my notes (tagged explicitly for the notebook or not) contained within one notebook. Sure, other times I want to see all relevant tagged info, but having a notebook view is more convenient for me. I just really feel that having nested stacks would be a great feature for those of us that are less tag-oriented.

I really don't understand the conclusion, based on your premise (which I'm also at odds to figure out). You want to see all of your notes "contained within one notebook" (even though they're really not; btw, the phrase "tagged explicitly for the notebook" doesn't really make sense in the Evernote world: tags are not notebooks), but somehow this implies that nested stacks are the solution? I don't follow; if you want to see all of your notes, then just use the "All notebooks" feature. You don't need nested stacks for that.

That being said, I do understand that many folks would find nesting of stacks (or notebooks) useful. It's just not clear to me how your example supports that usage. Did I miss something?

 

 

I was all on the Nested Stacks bandwagon, but in making an argument against tags, I had to explore them. I'm now ignoring notebooks and focusing on tags. They let me create as many layers of nesting as I want like Outlook folders or file folders, plus I can have more than one tag on a note, so it can be associated with more than one concept.

 

Downside, at least in the desktop app, is that with a stack, if I click on the top level of the stack in the sidebar, I can see a list of all notes in all of the stack's child notebooks. If I click on a parent tag, I don't see all the notes in its descendant tags. I think if showing notes in a tag's descendant tags was possible (maybe a setting users can toggle), it would make the tags more useful and better fit the scenario zuzubeas is describing.

[jefito 5,589]

Tags are indeed useful.  That notwithstanding, they are not a hierarchical structure.  They are...tags!  You're not being organized using tags - you're tagging.  That's OK if your data search needs are significantly random and your frequency of access is small.

Correct, but not necessarily so. There have been a number of suggestions made in the forums as to how Evernote could expose the hierarchical nature of their tag organization to the search language.

 

Consider this.  You use evernote to keep records of product builds.  You have software products and hardware products.  Ignoring the former, you have seven families of hardware products.  Any family has 2-4 SKU's, and each SKU has 30-200 components, assembly instructions and reams of test data.  How are you going to organize efficiently with tags?

 

Tags are very useful for those component that span SKUs, but are you really going to tag each test report as "Product" and "Hardware" and "Family 4" and "SKU 3" and "FadeMarginReport27"?  Let's be real!  Then lets say you want to find those reports whose outlier case was +32dBm.  This is a real world use for evernote and it simply can't be properly done with tags!  So for those who say 'antiquated' your agenda (or simple use case) is showing.

You need a database, not Evernote for this sort of thing. Evernote employes a database, of course, but doesn't expose it to the the user. There's no question that some organizational problems are particularly well-suited to hierarchical solutions, but that doesn't imply therefore all products that deal with collections of objects need to offer a hierarchical model. You use the tool that suits your problem set. In this case, that tool is probably not Evernote.

Of course, if you insist on using Evernote, I see a mix of notebooks combined with tags or possibly just note titles might handle it. Depends on how you intend to use this collection, what your searches would be like, etc. ...

As you can see, I have only great respect for the inclusion of tags.  And I believe that it's so obvious that a hierarchical structure is better, that the only conclusion left is the data structure decision is made and there is no turning back.

The decision was made, and they could change their minds at any time. But in the current world of Evernote, there are some problems that don't lend themselves to their current architecture. That's all most of us are saying here, and not that it's wrong to ask.

[jefito 5,589]

Downside, at least in the desktop app, is that with a stack, if I click on the top level of the stack in the sidebar, I can see a list of all notes in all of the stack's child notebooks. If I click on a parent tag, I don't see all the notes in its descendant tags. I think if showing notes in a tag's descendant tags was possible (maybe a setting users can toggle), it would make the tags more useful and better fit the scenario zuzubeas is describing.

Right. There have been suggestions made to extend tag search to handle this case, but that's not something that Evernote has chosen to implement. It might be related to (or at least complicated by) the fact that tag hierarchies get lost when they're shared with other users

[eric99 980]

You can avoid multiple tags per note by creating "full pathname" tagnames.

For instance :

A root tag name:      "Software"

a nested tag name:  "Software/SKU1" 

and a component inside this gets the tag name  "Software/SKU1/Comp1"  and so on. If you like you can hide these tags inside a nested tag view.

This way you need to assign one tag only to a particular note...

 

Eric

[jefito 5,589]

You can avoid multiple tags per note by creating "full pathname" tagnames.

For instance :

A root tag name:      "Software"

a nested tag name:  "Software/SKU1" 

and a component inside this gets the tag name  "Software/SKU1/Comp1"  and so on. If you like you can hide these tags inside a nested tag view.

This way you need to assign one tag only to a particular note...

 

Eric

Yep, this approach is known, and it can help out with certain scenarios (for example, if you want hierarchical tag searches, it's basically the only way), *plus* you can accomplish mixed AND / OR searching in some cases. The down side is that it's awkward to build and maintain this explicitly coded hierarchy. Otherwise, a strict application of this approach does diminish the flexibility of tags to cut across hierarchies, and you need to know the hierarchy in order to search effectively -- if you don't know that one tag, you may find it hard to find your notes.

[Exavior 6]

Why can't we just have stacks within stacks?  Seems unnecessarily limiting, especially for people who like to visually organize collections of data.

 

For example, I would love to have a stack called "Creative Projects" where I store notebooks for projects I'm working on, or stacks for similar projects.  For example  

• Notebook: Default
• Notebook: Work
• [ Stack: Creative Projects ]
  • [stack: Special Effects ]
    • Notebook: Zombies
    • Notebook: Appliances
    • Notebook: Animatronics
  • [ Stack: Programming ]
    • Notebook: Raspberry Pi
    • Notebook: Node JS
    • Notebook: lolcode
• Notebook:  Things to complain about on the internet

 

A parent/child relational hierarchy seems like a very logical/natural way to organize notebooks.  

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

Why can't we just have stacks within stacks?  Seems unnecessarily limiting, especially for people who like to visually organize collections of data.

 

For example, I would love to have a stack called "Creative Projects" where I store notebooks for projects I'm working on, or stacks for similar projects.  For example  

• Notebook: Default
• Notebook: Work
• [ Stack: Creative Projects ]
  • [stack: Special Effects ]
    • Notebook: Zombies
    • Notebook: Appliances
    • Notebook: Animatronics
  • [ Stack: Programming ]
    • Notebook: Raspberry Pi
    • Notebook: Node JS
    • Notebook: lolcode
• Notebook:  Things to complain about on the internet

 

A parent/child relational hierarchy seems like a very logical/natural way to organize notebooks.  

 

 

Much discussion already exists on nested/folders/stacks/notebooks/sub notebooks/sub stacks/etc.  Please use the search function, if you want more info. Everyone seems to think posting an example will "enlighten" Evernote.  Believe me, they get it.  However, they've chosen a different methodology.  And in a nutshell, I find nested whatevers limiting.  Using tags, descriptive titles & keywords is MUCH more flexible.

[jefito 5,589]

Why can't we just have stacks within stacks?  Seems unnecessarily limiting, especially for people who like to visually organize collections of data.

The simple truth of it is that Evernote has chosen not to implement all but a minimal amount of hierarchical structure to their note storage. In this, they're akin to GMail (as opposed to MS Outlook).

[Exavior 6]

Much discussion already exists on nested/folders/stacks/notebooks/sub notebooks/sub stacks/etc.  Please use the search function, if you want more info. 

 

I'm well aware that there are many threads where this issue is being discussed (a good indicator of the demand for this functionality), and with all things being equal (and this thread popping to the top of my search, yes, I used search), I chose to post here.

 

 

Everyone seems to think posting an example will "enlighten" Evernote.  Believe me, they get it.  However, they've chosen a different methodology.  And in a nutshell, I find nested whatevers limiting.  Using tags, descriptive titles & keywords is MUCH more flexible.

 

 

That rather negative statement sets off so many alarm bells with me.  1: So a lot of users have this desire?  2: All those users are wrong for wanting that functionality?  3: They are also wrong for trying to clarify their desire with practical examples?  It's all a bit reminiscent to the "You're holding it wrong" iPhone debacle.  If a significant volume of users have an expectation of functionality that is unmet, maybe it should be looked into until a resolution or compromise is found.  (clearly we are not there yet)

 

At the end of the day, an application should be able to meet the needs of its users and adapt to how users wish to use it.  Not all users are the same in terms of needs, experience, preferred interaction patterns, etc.  And through good UX you can meet the needs of a varied user base.

 

With good UI design you can have several methods of accomplishing a specific goal without any negative impact on other functionality.  Just because tags are powerful (which I completely agree with) does not mean other methods of organization (especially visual) should be abandoned or are irrelevant.  The addition of nested stacks does not detract from the value of tags, it merely supplements it and provides a visual representation of an organizational structure than many people are familiar with and inclined to expect.  One great thing about good UI design is you can have apples AND oranges if you plan properly and the additional functionality does not create conflicts, clutter, or paradox of choice.

 

Please keep in mind that just because I am expressing desire for an additional feature does not mean I don't like the application.  I love Evernote, and I understand your desire to rush in and defend it.  But lets not slam users for respectfully wanting more or varied functionality.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

 

Much discussion already exists on nested/folders/stacks/notebooks/sub notebooks/sub stacks/etc.  Please use the search function, if you want more info. 

 

I'm well aware that there are many threads where this issue is being discussed (a good indicator of the demand for this functionality), and with all things being equal (and this thread popping to the top of my search, yes, I used search), I chose to post here.

 

 

Everyone seems to think posting an example will "enlighten" Evernote.  Believe me, they get it.  However, they've chosen a different methodology.  And in a nutshell, I find nested whatevers limiting.  Using tags, descriptive titles & keywords is MUCH more flexible.

 

 

That rather negative statement sets off so many alarm bells with me.  1: So a lot of users have this desire?  2: All those users are wrong for wanting that functionality?  3: They are also wrong for trying to clarify their desire with practical examples?  It's all a bit reminiscent to the "You're holding it wrong" iPhone debacle.  If a significant volume of users have an expectation of functionality that is unmet, maybe it should be looked into until a resolution or compromise is found.  (clearly we are not there yet)

 

At the end of the day, an application should be able to meet the needs of its users and adapt to how users wish to use it.  Not all users are the same in terms of needs, experience, preferred interaction patterns, etc.  And through good UX you can meet the needs of a varied user base.

 

With good UI design you can have several methods of accomplishing a specific goal without any negative impact on other functionality.  Just because tags are powerful (which I completely agree with) does not mean other methods of organization (especially visual) should be abandoned or are irrelevant.  The addition of nested stacks does not detract from the value of tags, it merely supplements it and provides a visual representation of an organizational structure than many people are familiar with and inclined to expect.  One great thing about good UI design is you can have apples AND oranges if you plan properly and the additional functionality does not create conflicts, clutter, or paradox of choice.

 

Please keep in mind that just because I am expressing desire for an additional feature does not mean I don't like the application.  I love Evernote, and I understand your desire to rush in and defend it.  But lets not slam users for respectfully wanting more or varied functionality.

 

 

First, no one said you are wrong for wanting this desire or asking for it & I don't even know where you pulled that from.  I'm simply saying many of us who devote (freely) our time to this board are not going to reinterate what we've already posted in other threads. It's simple common courtesy to search a board on a topic that may have already been discussed.  No software app is going to please all their users.  It's impossible.  Again, if you want more info on this topic that has already been discussed at great length, please use the search function.  If you elect to not do that, that's fine with me as well.

[jeshenkimo 1]

Hi all, thanks for the discussion. Stack a notebook underneath another notebook was my first thought to use Evernote too. So it's glad to know the restriction and ways to work around. @Jeff - appreciate your 1st post to the question. Very useful for a beginner for Evernote. 

[lpmathiasen 12]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post, so please bear with me.

 

I'm using Evernote 4.6.1 on Windows 7 64 bit. I'm trying to create nested notebook stacks, but I haven't found any menu option that enables that function. Is it possible to do what I want to accomplish?

 

Thanks

 

 

 

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post, so please bear with me.

 

I'm using Evernote 4.6.1 on Windows 7 64 bit. I'm trying to create nested notebook stacks, but I haven't found any menu option that enables that function. Is it possible to do what I want to accomplish?

 

Thanks

Stacks cannot be nested & notebooks canot be nested. Stacks can contain notebooks but not other stacks. Notebooks cannot contain other notebooks or stacks. For more intricate organizing, you can use tags, descriptive titles and "keywords".

 

Hey all - AND WHY IS IT  that stacks can't contain stacks??

It would be a powerfull feature.

I know EN want us to have the business edition, then you can have multiple accounts, and in that way have another dimention to EN, but EN is in competition with OneNote in businesses, and because OneNote has several more layers it wins. I like EN because it supports all my platforms: Android, Windows, FireOS, IOS.

If OneNote were to be available to all platforms, I think because of lack of layering, nesting and so on EN will loose the battle in businesslife by far. That would be a shame.

 

If stacks were could contain stacks and they were colored if containing stacks, it was easy to oversee. Maybe EN development can see the potential?

[jefito 5,589]

Hey all - AND WHY IS IT  that stacks can't contain stacks??

It would be a powerfull feature.

I know EN want us to have the business edition, then you can have multiple accounts, and in that way have another dimention to EN, but EN is in competition with OneNote in businesses, and because OneNote has several more layers it wins. I like EN because it supports all my platforms: Android, Windows, FireOS, IOS.

If OneNote were to be available to all platforms, I think because of lack of layering, nesting and so on EN will loose the battle in businesslife by far. That would be a shame.

 

If stacks were could contain stacks and they were colored if containing stacks, it was easy to oversee. Maybe EN development can see the potential?

Trust me, this topic has been revisited many times (search the forums for "hierarchy", etc.). To date, Evernote has not seemed interested in providing notebooks that contain notebooks or stacks that con stacks or any other arbitrarily nestable organizational constructs except for tabs. That's not to say that it wouldn't be useful for some users, nor that it won't ever happen, just that it's been requested before.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post, so please bear with me.

 

I'm using Evernote 4.6.1 on Windows 7 64 bit. I'm trying to create nested notebook stacks, but I haven't found any menu option that enables that function. Is it possible to do what I want to accomplish?

 

Thanks

 

Hi everyone,

 

This is my first post, so please bear with me.

 

I'm using Evernote 4.6.1 on Windows 7 64 bit. I'm trying to create nested notebook stacks, but I haven't found any menu option that enables that function. Is it possible to do what I want to accomplish?

 

Thanks

Stacks cannot be nested & notebooks canot be nested. Stacks can contain notebooks but not other stacks. Notebooks cannot contain other notebooks or stacks. For more intricate organizing, you can use tags, descriptive titles and "keywords".

Hey all - AND WHY IS IT  that stacks can't contain stacks??

It would be a powerfull feature.

I know EN want us to have the business edition, then you can have multiple accounts, and in that way have another dimention to EN, but EN is in competition with OneNote in businesses, and because OneNote has several more layers it wins. I like EN because it supports all my platforms: Android, Windows, FireOS, IOS.

If OneNote were to be available to all platforms, I think because of lack of layering, nesting and so on EN will loose the battle in businesslife by far. That would be a shame.

 

If stacks were could contain stacks and they were colored if containing stacks, it was easy to oversee. Maybe EN development can see the potential?

I don't know why. I think the answer for the last six years has been to use tags.

 http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/28871-feature-request-nested-stacks-multiple-notebook-levels/

I've also suggested they have more of a notebook hierarchy. It wouldn't do me any good, because the vast majority of my notes are in a single notebook, but I do think it would please a lot of users. If i had to guess, I'd say there is a reason on the backend that an infinite number of notebooks and an infinite amount of nesting would affect performance.

[gazumped 11,665]

Had a browse through the Evernote App Center (see below) - formerly known as Trunk.  There's a link to Tusktools in there who do have a folder hierarchy thingy - Treeliner - that looks as if it might be interesting...

[jefito 5,589]

I've also suggested they have more of a notebook hierarchy. It wouldn't do me any good, because the vast majority of my notes are in a single notebook, but I do think it would please a lot of users. If i had to guess, I'd say there is a reason on the backend that an infinite number of notebooks and an infinite amount of nesting would affect performance.

Not sure that it it's a performance thing; it seems to just be a choice on their part. And at this point, it would entail some measure of re-architecting to make stacks nest arbitrarily. Currently they only exist -- so far as the API reflects, and maybe in actual implementation -- as a string in a notebook (http://dev.evernote.com/doc/reference/NoteStore.html#Fn_NoteStore_listNotebooks and http://dev.evernote.com/doc/reference/Types.html#Struct_Notebook). Changing that means changes to the Evernote API, which means changing the Evernote clients plus their respective UIs, and also any third party applications that use on stacks. Not impossible, for sure, but they'd probably need to want it a lot to take on that amount of work. I don't get any sense that they do (not that I know what's going on inside their doors).

[Wordsgood 526]

Gazumped, thank you for the Treeliner tip! I just signed up for the beta testing. It looks very promising!

Wordsgood

[aboutwd 0]

(first time poster here) - I've been trying EverNote for several months now... seeing if it is comfortable to use. In general, I really like it. I have to agree though, nested categories (regardless of terminology) is the one single downfall to the system. And it really is a huge one.

 

If it's true that this has been a highly requested feature for many years, why in the world don't they find a way to deliver what people want? That doesn't make any sense to me. At least offer it as a 'paid' feature, or sell a plug-in we could install, or something.

[jefito 5,589]

(first time poster here) - I've been trying EverNote for several months now... seeing if it is comfortable to use. In general, I really like it. I have to agree though, nested categories (regardless of terminology) is the one single downfall to the system. And it really is a huge one.

 

If it's true that this has been a highly requested feature for many years, why in the world don't they find a way to deliver what people want? That doesn't make any sense to me. At least offer it as a 'paid' feature, or sell a plug-in we could install, or something.

If you want arbitrary nesting, then you should use tags, which offer arbitrary nesting (by the way, when someone uses the term "category", I think tags or labels, not notebooks / folders; things in the world belong to multiple categories, which is expressible using tags). As to why they don't offer that in the notebook structure, I don't exactly know, but if you read  this (lengthy) topic, you might get an idea of where they're coming from: http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/28871-feature-request-nested-stacks-multiple-notebook-levels/. For my use case, tags work great, and they're much more flexible than nested notebooks / stacks / folders / what-have-yous, organization-wise. 

[aboutwd 0]

OK, interesting....  I don't automatically associate tags with the ability to organize in a hierarchical structure. That being said, I can see the benifits and I’m going to give that a try to see how it works. That may make all the difference in my overall experience with this software.

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

(first time poster here) - I've been trying EverNote for several months now... seeing if it is comfortable to use. In general, I really like it. I have to agree though, nested categories (regardless of terminology) is the one single downfall to the system. And it really is a huge one.

 

If it's true that this has been a highly requested feature for many years, why in the world don't they find a way to deliver what people want? That doesn't make any sense to me. At least offer it as a 'paid' feature, or sell a plug-in we could install, or something.

There is a lot of discussion on the board already on the topic. Please search the board for these threads which may be very helpful. In a nutshell, EN's system is MUCH more flexible than a nested folder system, especially the more notes you have. An example jefito has used a lot is how to file a red, rubber ball. Does it go under red? Round? Rubber? Toy? Ball? With tags (and/or keywords) you can use all of them & not have to delve into the bowels of your hard drive looking for the image of the red, rubber ball. I think EN was very wise in choosing this methodology.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

OK, interesting....  I don't automatically associate tags with the ability to organize in a hierarchical structure. That being said, I can see the benifits and I’m going to give that a try to see how it works. That may make all the difference in my overall experience with this software.

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

I have to admit that it took a bit of adjusting on my part when I first started using EN. But once you "get it", you realize how powerful & flexible it is to not be restricted to hierarchical folders.

[jefito 5,589]

OK, interesting....  I don't automatically associate tags with the ability to organize in a hierarchical structure. That being said, I can see the benifits and I’m going to give that a try to see how it works. That may make all the difference in my overall experience with this software.

 

Thanks for the suggestion.

Feel free to ask for other users' experience. There are a number of good approaches, and one or another might fit your use case. Good luck.

[lpmathiasen 12]

Hello all, very interesting discussion here, and yes I agree tags can be a great thing, but for sorting not for filling the system. From the perspective of filling EN from multiple sources e.g. your phone, your iPad, your android tablet, from the web via the pc at the library, by PostIts and so many more sources, it is very quickly becomeing cluttered, and you will have to use some time for sorting and tagging. 

 

If there was an opportunity for nested notebooks, it would be a lot easier to fill in the collected information directly in that notebook at that level it belongs to.I think it would be difficult to prove me wrong here, especially because it takes only one process to store information and to sort it. Hence it should be in the spirit of EN. 

 

When it comes to using the notes it is completely true that tags are a very powerful tool. I mean look at Gmail, it's built on it, with great success. But like Gmail and the insight of Google developers, Evernote developers should or ought to look at the ever ongoing discussion about multi level nested notebooks. 

 

From my perspective as a professional collector of information, this is about minimising processes to collect, and minimises the possibilities for storing their note under the wrong subject.

 

I have tried using tags and can now with confidence claim, it took me twice as long to store data with two or three tags, compared to finding one notebook on a list of over 150 notebooks and stored in that.So to be "lean" about it, or should we call it rational, it strikes me as an oddity that this should be such a big topic in Evernote forum. The question must be what stops development from building it into the very great product that Evernote actually is.

 

Of course that's just my opinion, but I do ask of you who has another opinion and swears to tags, please do provide a simple description maybe a link to a discussion where someone has describes an equally easy way to use tags as I describe storing data above here.

 

Another perspective could be, with so much attention on this isn't its about choice and freedom of choice. Maybe if there was a choice both paradigms would be equally popular. Don't you think so?

 

Evernote is in competition with Onenote, that is a fact of market. Evernote is slowly gaining market shares and is becoming ever more popular, but as you can see in this forum, the more professional users are getting, the more we use it for everything, the more often the question about nested notebooks are coming up. It is coming up a lot these days.

 

Sorry for the lenghty argument!

 

/Lars

[jbenson2 2,147]

In my opinion one of the key reasons there are so many recurring comments about these big thorny subjects is due to the lack of concrete responses from Evernote.

 

Back in the old days, Dave Engberg (Evenote CTO) kept us aware of what was possible and what was not. But since he has moved on, we are buried in a sea of posts from users asking the same question over and over. The evangelists try to offer some guidance, but they are users as well with no direct knowledge of where Evernote is going. Some Evernote staff jump in on specific issues, but I am talking about the really big issues that never fade away. If there were some official guidance on these issues, it would give many of us the opportunity to tilt at new windmills.

[jefito 5,589]

In my opinion one of the key reasons there are so many recurring comments about these big thorny subjects is due to the lack of concrete responses from Evernote.

 

Back in the old days, Dave Engberg (Evenote CTO) kept us aware of what was possible and what was not. But since he has moved on, we are buried in a sea of posts from users asking the same question over and over. The evangelists try to offer some guidance, but they are users as well with no direct knowledge of where Evernote is going. Some Evernote staff jump in on specific issues, but I am talking about the really big issues that never fade away. If there were some official guidance on these issues, it would give many of us the opportunity to tilt at new windmills.

The general rules governing feature requests are:

1) Evernote staff don't usually like to repeat themselves.

2) Evernote staff are generally not allowed to discuss future development plans.

Dave was pretty clear in the linked topic: they're not looking at adding hierarchical structures, but that wouldn't stop them from doing it some time in the future. The second part, the bit about "some time in the future" is a bit of a hedge ("never say never"), but given rule #2, they're probably not going to talk about that if it's in the works until it's well along in the development process. Which leads us back to the main point: they're not looking at adding hierarchical structures. So unless you know of some statement by Evernote staffers that contradict that, then it's about as concrete a statement of official guidance as you can expect, even if it's not particularly recent.

[lpmathiasen 12]

In my opinion one of the key reasons there are so many recurring comments about these big thorny subjects is due to the lack of concrete responses from Evernote.

 

Back in the old days, Dave Engberg (Evenote CTO) kept us aware of what was possible and what was not. But since he has moved on, we are buried in a sea of posts from users asking the same question over and over. The evangelists try to offer some guidance, but they are users as well with no direct knowledge of where Evernote is going. Some Evernote staff jump in on specific issues, but I am talking about the really big issues that never fade away. If there were some official guidance on these issues, it would give many of us the opportunity to tilt at new windmills.

 

 

 

In my opinion one of the key reasons there are so many recurring comments about these big thorny subjects is due to the lack of concrete responses from Evernote.

 

Back in the old days, Dave Engberg (Evenote CTO) kept us aware of what was possible and what was not. But since he has moved on, we are buried in a sea of posts from users asking the same question over and over. The evangelists try to offer some guidance, but they are users as well with no direct knowledge of where Evernote is going. Some Evernote staff jump in on specific issues, but I am talking about the really big issues that never fade away. If there were some official guidance on these issues, it would give many of us the opportunity to tilt at new windmills.

The general rules governing feature requests are:

1) Evernote staff don't usually like to repeat themselves.

2) Evernote staff are generally not allowed to discuss future development plans.

Dave was pretty clear in the linked topic: they're not looking at adding hierarchical structures, but that wouldn't stop them from doing it some time in the future. The second part, the bit about "some time in the future" is a bit of a hedge ("never say never"), but given rule #2, they're probably not going to talk about that if it's in the works until it's well along in the development process. Which leads us back to the main point: they're not looking at adding hierarchical structures. So unless you know of some statement by Evernote staffers that contradict that, then it's about as concrete a statement of official guidance as you can expect, even if it's not particularly recent.

 

 jbenson2 I think your right. Give us a HOW and a WHEN. The more we use EN the more we need to know how we do it better, that is what these thread is about, and where we can expect to find our self in the future if we continue using it. The mere amount of repeated questions imply that you have right, and when we take jefito's 2 points into account, I would say that EN is on a collisioncourse with its users. EN is not just a software, it is a movement, hence it need clear governance. 

 

If knew how to do what I aim to in EN on EN terms, and I like it, I would not say a word against it. If I don't unserstand I would say it loud. How many of us has said it loud only to end up leaving EN in despair. I really do like its versatility. I like I can use it from whatever peice of gadget I wanna use, but - and this is a big but, if I miss the logic and become uncertain - it is often easier to jump back to ones old paradigms than fight to understand. 

 

Evernote people - how about make one of your nice videos for this topic: How to manage your notes in several layers! Cause thats what it's all about. Isen't it?

 

Please show me/us:

 

1. How to manage subjects and sub-subjects
2. How to store data with few processes
3. How to maintain the integrity of my data
4. How not to loose focus and drown in data and subjects
5. How to delimit work boundaries within a notebook (hos to create sub, sub and sub topics)

The list may be a lot longer, but this is what I think is what I miss, and what I can find others missing in this forum. I have tried to keep it in the EN creative mood to make it plausible this could be an easy solution. In short: Teach us doubters how to master this tool!

Thanks!

 

Lars

www.lpmathiasen.com

[lpmathiasen 12]

Hello again. I just went trough EN help. After a little help - it pretty mutch ends there. The picture below is the last screen in initial help. 

With so little help, the videos are just good stories, or PR, and so much in the Forum and Knowledgebase. How about make some good old fasion help areas, where us that need help can find it. Just simple and in the EN spirit by example? To me it might solve my problem of ignorance to "how to do it". It also would justify jbenson2's statement: Evernote staff don't usually like to repeat themselves. And it would be possible to show a little future track inside the help area. Just my opinion!

 

Here is a Youtube I found espalining exactly what I did not know from Evernote help about tags: YOUTUBE

 

 

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

I'd definitely appreciate more documentation. How-to videos by Evernote exist, but are still scattered about and not well-known. They are also a little too general, in many cases.

I recommend you take a look at the 43 evernote-related posts on my site.

http://www.christopher-mayo.com/?s=evernote

I talk about how i do stuff in a minimalistic manner.

http://www.christopher-mayo.com/?p=367

I also collect links to other (often better) sites for learning more.

http://www.christopher-mayo.com/?p=446

A good place to start, if all of this still seems overwhelming, is Brett Kelly's book.

http://nerdgap.com/evernote-essentials-4/

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

Additionally, there is a lot of helpful information right here on this board. That's how/why I started spending so much time here is b/c every day, I'd learn something new about EN and how to use it.

[jefito 5,589]

In the vein of GrumpyMonkey's post:

A really good place to start is right here in the forums. There are plenty of people who have gathered expertise in using Evernote (and keep it up-to-date, which can be a failing of external sources), including the ins-and-outs of the various clients, and have sorted out approaches for organization that work for them.

It helps to be clear about what you're trying to do with your stuff (i.e., Evernote content). What is it? How do you interact with it? What's your workflow? These are the sorts of questions that you need to be able to answer before someone can suggest an approach that works in Evernote, since Evernote's tools work in specific ways. Anyone here can tell you that tags nest, and how to add them in various ways, and how to use them in search and so forth; that's pretty basic Evernote operation. But unless someone can understand your use case, they won't be able to tell you how to proceed, in the same way that you cannot point to a pile of wood and ask an architect what the best way to build a house is (or try to build it yourself if you don't know how to use the tools).

[jefito 5,589]

jbenson2 I think your right. Give us a HOW and a WHEN.

A How and When for what?

 

The more we use EN the more we need to know how we do it better, that is what these thread is about, and where we can expect to find our self in the future if we continue using it.

I can tell you that the more that you use Evernote, the less you need to know how to use it better: usage breeds better understanding of what Evernote (or any tool) does.

 

The actual thread topic is whether you can create nested notebook stacks in Evernote. That was answered right away: no. Since then, the topic has devolved into a discussion on something else. It should probably be its own topic, in my opinion.

 

The mere amount of repeated questions imply that you have right, and when we take jefito's 2 points into account, I would say that EN is on a collisioncourse with its users. EN is not just a software, it is a movement, hence it need clear governance.

Not sure what you mean about clear governance. On this particular issue, Evernote has spoken quite clearly, and about as definitively as they get, from a position of high authority in the company (CTO).

 

If knew how to do what I aim to in EN on EN terms, and I like it, I would not say a word against it. If I don't unserstand I would say it loud. How many of us has said it loud only to end up leaving EN in despair. I really do like its versatility. I like I can use it from whatever peice of gadget I wanna use, but - and this is a big but, if I miss the logic and become uncertain - it is often easier to jump back to ones old paradigms than fight to understand.

There are resource, as noted elsewhere in the topic. Use them. Ask questions. Ask for features. But don't plan around features that do not exist and seem unlikely to be implemented.

 

It also would justify jbenson2's statement: Evernote staff don't usually like to repeat themselves. And it would be possible to show a little future track inside the help area. Just my opinion!

Please watch your attributions. I said that, not jbenson. The statement's based on 5+ years of active forum participation and direct comments by Evernote staff.

[Metrodon 2,184]

I love the idea that Evernote is a "movement".

 

It's not, it's a commercial company selling a commercial service and as such are able to make any kind of decision that they believe to be the best.

 

That isn't to say that as a user you have to agree with one or every decision and you can certainly voice a contrary argument on these user forums but to assume that your opinion alone (or the relatively small sample set of forum users) validates an argument and makes it The Truth rather underestimates how grown up companies behave.

[Mike Levine 0]

Evernote- Please make Stacks Stackable!!

[TonyCr 2]

I, too, am looking for the ability to nest stacks. One of the searches turned up a feature request from 2008 asking the same thing. I can't believe it is that difficult to accomplish.

 

Note to Evernote: You have a good product. When users ask for something that is relatively easy, deal with it quickly. It's visible to the users, makes them happy and eliminates years of negative forum posts. Marketing 101.

[gazumped 11,665]

I, too, am looking for the ability to nest stacks. One of the searches turned up a feature request from 2008 asking the same thing. I can't believe it is that difficult to accomplish.

 

Note to Evernote: You have a good product. When users ask for something that is relatively easy, deal with it quickly. It's visible to the users, makes them happy and eliminates years of negative forum posts. Marketing 101.

 

I'd suggest Evernote would have done something if 1) it were as easy as you think and 2) if they were prepared to change their philosophy.  

[megsaint 441]

I, too, am looking for the ability to nest stacks. One of the searches turned up a feature request from 2008 asking the same thing. I can't believe it is that difficult to accomplish.

 

Note to Evernote: You have a good product. When users ask for something that is relatively easy, deal with it quickly. It's visible to the users, makes them happy and eliminates years of negative forum posts. Marketing 101.

 

Whether or not it's a difficult feature to implement is something none of us here would really know. What is pretty definite is that Evernote has made decisions about the kind of software they want to use and the kind they want to make. They are not unaware of these requests. It just appears, at present at least, they're not part of the plan. 

 

Best of luck. 

[R4z3r 0]

+1 on this feature request. This would make organization for me in Evernote much easier.

[DaveLTB 1]

There are many threads on the subject of a deeper hierarchical structure for notebooks.

One of the reasons I signed up for a premium account is because I "hoped" that would give me a deeper hierarchical structure. Unfortunately I was wrong.

If enough people keep asking for this feature, the EN management might just reconsider accommodating customer demand. After all, the customer is supposed to be king???

 

Please don't tell me that the answer is Tags. Sure, tags are useful but they don't fit the way I work. I like to browse down a hierarchy as part of my personal search and creative process.

 

So, Evernote management, please... a cry from a paying customer... please reconsider and allow us to add notebooks within notebooks within notebooks...

 

Dave Britzius

(Cape Town) 

 

[jefito 5,589]

The answer, today, is pretty much tags and other search/filtering aids (embedded keywords, titles, dates, etc.). You can only go so far with notebooks and stacks in Evernote. You can emulate a hierarchy using tags, though. But using Evernote in the hopes that they'll add a notebook hierarchy any time soon doesn't sound like a great strategy to me.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

There are many threads on the subject of a deeper hierarchical structure for notebooks.

One of the reasons I signed up for a premium account is because I "hoped" that would give me a deeper hierarchical structure. Unfortunately I was wrong.

If enough people keep asking for this feature, the EN management might just reconsider accommodating customer demand. After all, the customer is supposed to be king???

 

Please don't tell me that the answer is Tags. Sure, tags are useful but they don't fit the way I work. I like to browse down a hierarchy as part of my personal search and creative process.

 

So, Evernote management, please... a cry from a paying customer... please reconsider and allow us to add notebooks within notebooks within notebooks...

 

Dave Britzius

(Cape Town) 

The customer is not always king. When two customers each want a feature that is mutually exclusive, who wins? Or a feature would negatively impact something about the product. Or there are higher priorities. Or the devs have simply decided to not incorporate a particular feature, for whatever reason. After all, they owe it to existing customers AND employees to make good business decisions so the company can (hopefully) remain profitable. Simply being a paying customer and expecting something you want changed to be changed is unreasonable.

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

There are many threads on the subject of a deeper hierarchical structure for notebooks.

One of the reasons I signed up for a premium account is because I "hoped" that would give me a deeper hierarchical structure. Unfortunately I was wrong.

If enough people keep asking for this feature, the EN management might just reconsider accommodating customer demand. After all, the customer is supposed to be king???

 

Please don't tell me that the answer is Tags. Sure, tags are useful but they don't fit the way I work. I like to browse down a hierarchy as part of my personal search and creative process.

 

So, Evernote management, please... a cry from a paying customer... please reconsider and allow us to add notebooks within notebooks within notebooks...

 

Dave Britzius

(Cape Town) 

 

Dave, I think you make a sound argument for Evernote to strongly consider providing sub-notebooks.

 

It is very clear and obvious to most that when you say "After all, the customer is supposed to be king???" you are NOT just talking about yourself, but the many, many customers who have for years requested sub-notebooks.  Companies who continue to ignore the needs of large blocks of their customers run the risk of going out of business.  Word Perfect and Blackberry are two examples that come to mind.

 

The sleeping giant Microsoft seems to be waking up with respect to Note taking/capturing/organization with its OneNote app.  They have recently begin making it available on more platforms/devices, and improving its capability.  And, like Evernote, they have started making some versions FREE.  Just look at what Microsoft did to Netscape Navigator.  

 

I was also once a huge WordPerfect fan, until they failed to adopt the GUI of Mac, then Windows.  So while today I prefer Evernote to OneNote, that might change in the future.    It just depends.

 

Furthermore, Evernote has CHANGED ITS MIND on several major features.  The best example is the Business version of Evernote.  After years of saying they wanted nothing to do with creating/supporting a "business" version, they have done just that.

 

The way I see it, understanding the need and value of organizing and viewing information in a hierarchical manner is something that is very obvious to some people, and, apparently, does not register with others.  That's fine.  No one who asks for sub-notebooks is trying to force anyone to use that method of organization.  But there are others who don't seem to understand its value that continue relentlessly to argue against Evernote providing sub-notebooks.  Frankly, I just ignore this segment and continue on.

 

So, I continue to urge those who would like to have sub-notebooks in Evernote to continue asking for that feature.  There is no harm in asking, and maybe someday Evernote will provide it.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

It is very clear and obvious to most that when you say "After all, the customer is supposed to be king???" you are NOT just talking about yourself, but the many, many customers who have for years requested sub-notebooks.  Companies who continue to ignore the needs of large blocks of their customers run the risk of going out of business.  Word Perfect and Blackberry are two examples that come to mind.

I've also recommended more than once on these forums that Evernote remove their notebook limit and provide notebook hierarchies, if for no other reason, because it will surely make the app more appealing to users who prefer hierarchies and the notebook / folder metaphor. I'm not against the idea. And, as you said, there is no harm in asking, and I encourage users to continue asking for it.

However,I don't think the lesson to be drawn from those two companies is that they failed because they ignored the feature requests of their users. In both cases, the circumstances of their demise (they are both, technically speaking, still eking out an existence on some devices) are quite complex and their fates cannot be reduced simply (or at all?) to obstinate designers.

I think academics, lawyers, and others who enjoyed WordPerfect would argue that it responded better to their requests than Microsoft ever did. If you asked developers of the WordPerfect software, they might blame Microsoft's business practices for its failure. Although Novell eventually lost its suit against Microsoft, I don't think the result of the legal case has exonerated Microsoft -- I imagine there is more to be written about this by historians. Microsoft, at least in my experience, has hardly been a model company when it comes to adopting the suggestions made by users. I'm sure there are plenty of users who still loathe the ribbon interface, for example, but Microsoft hasn't backed down on it. When was the last time you had a conversation with a developer there? The last time I tried to contact the company about bugs they wanted to charge me money for the privilege of getting in touch with a human being.

All of this nitpicking is just to say that the refusal of a company like Evernote to take a certain direction with its design doesn't necessarily mean that they are "ignoring" the needs of customers or that they will then be subject to inevitable punishment from mysterious market forces. It might simply be (as it seems to be in this case) that they are listening, responding to users, but disagreeing. It happens all of the time in all areas of life. They might have genuinely significant personal, technical, aesthetic, and other reasons for doing what they do. In fact, I expect they do! I doubt it is mere whimsy or stubbornness. Considering the long history of complaints about this aspect of the app, I am guessing it has come up once or twice as a topic of discussion in meetings

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

I've also recommended more than once on these forums that Evernote remove their notebook limit and provide notebook hierarchies, if for no other reason, because it will surely make the app more appealing to users who prefer hierarchies and the notebook / folder metaphor. I'm not against the idea. And, as you said, there is no harm in asking, and I encourage users to continue asking for it.

 

 

Well, we can certainly agree on that!  

[Wordsgood 526]

I'm sure there are plenty of users who still loathe the ribbon interface, for example, but Microsoft hasn't backed down on it. When was the last time you had a conversation with a developer there? The last time I tried to contact the company about bugs they wanted to charge me money for the privilege of getting in touch with a human being.

I'm definitely one of those who isn't happy about the ribbon interface. Though to be fair, Microsoft does have excellent free tutorials available for all of it's core programs. And the users forum, while not as nicely laid out as this one, does have have a number of very knowledgeable and helpful volunteers.

I'm curious, Grumpy, what was the situation where they wanted to charge you to speak to a live company rep, if you don't mind sharing?

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

I'm sure there are plenty of users who still loathe the ribbon interface, for example, but Microsoft hasn't backed down on it. When was the last time you had a conversation with a developer there? The last time I tried to contact the company about bugs they wanted to charge me money for the privilege of getting in touch with a human being.

I'm definitely one of those who isn't happy about the ribbon interface. Though to be fair, Microsoft does have excellent free tutorials available for all of it's core programs. And the users forum, while not as nicely laid out as this one, does have have a number of very knowledgeable and helpful volunteers.

I'm curious, Grumpy, what was the situation where they wanted to charge you to speak to a live company rep, if you don't mind sharing?

I don't know if it had anything to do with my problem or not, but (1) problems with memory issues and crashing on the Mac, (2) problems with vertical Japanese text support on the Mac, and (3) license inactivated because it was supposedly used on too many computers. If I remember correctly, they wanted 45 dollars.

[Oohmmm 2]

Hi everyone, I think that is a bit annoying write task all the time for every note, I use to organice the information with folders, so It could be a good solution create a hierarchy with notebooks.

 

Thank you   

[Wordsgood 526]

Hmm, that's puzzling. Sounds like an encounter I had last year with a large, popular anti-virus company. After I had paid for the service and two expensive repairs their software didn't catch. They wanted to charge me for the priviledge of talking to them as well...changed companies.

I'm sure there are plenty of users who still loathe the ribbon interface, for example, but Microsoft hasn't backed down on it. When was the last time you had a conversation with a developer there? The last time I tried to contact the company about bugs they wanted to charge me money for the privilege of getting in touch with a human being.

I'm definitely one of those who isn't happy about the ribbon interface. Though to be fair, Microsoft does have excellent free tutorials available for all of it's core programs. And the users forum, while not as nicely laid out as this one, does have have a number of very knowledgeable and helpful volunteers.

I'm curious, Grumpy, what was the situation where they wanted to charge you to speak to a live company rep, if you don't mind sharing?

I don't know if it had anything to do with my problem or not, but (1) problems with memory issues and crashing on the Mac, (2) problems with vertical Japanese text support on the Mac, and (3) license inactivated because it was supposedly used on too many computers. If I remember correctly, they wanted 45 dollars.

[derffred 0]

I have just started using EN and was exploring how to create a hierarchy of stacks.  To my disappointment it cannot be done.  What I find more distressing about this product is that EN has apparently opted to not address the issue other than to say that it might, maybe, could be, possibly, something to consider in the future...or not.

 

Then there are the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above.  One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't have all that time to invest.  The cross platform access is great.  But it doesn't override my organizational wants/needs.  I need to be up and running quickly.  If I had nested stacks available, I would have been on the road to purchasing, and implementing, a business or premium account.  As it stands now, I am moving on to a different solution or going to keep doing what I am doing.  I wonder how much business has been lost by people who just gave up and went on to other solutions and didn't spend the time to express their displeasure.

 

Go ahead, keep preaching that we need to change our ways of thinking about organizational structure.  I am moving on.  Change your tune and offer nested stacks and maybe I'll be back.

[ScottLougheed 1,316]

I have just started using EN and was exploring how to create a hierarchy of stacks.  To my disappointment it cannot be done.  What I find more distressing about this product is that EN has apparently opted to not address the issue other than to say that it might, maybe, could be, possibly, something to consider in the future...or not.

 

Then there are the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above.  One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't have all that time to invest.  The cross platform access is great.  But it doesn't override my organizational wants/needs.  I need to be up and running quickly.  If I had nested stacks available, I would have been on the road to purchasing, and implementing, a business or premium account.  As it stands now, I am moving on to a different solution or going to keep doing what I am doing.  I wonder how much business has been lost by people who just gave up and went on to other solutions and didn't spend the time to express their displeasure.

 

Go ahead, keep preaching that we need to change our ways of thinking about organizational structure.  I am moving on.  Change your tune and offer nested stacks and maybe I'll be back.

I think you hit the nail on the head.

 

For whatever reason, Evernote has chosen to not allow for an elaborate hierarchy. If the flat structure of Evernote works for you, or you can make it work for your needs, great. There are 100 million users who seem to be able to make it work.

 

If you absolutely need hierarchy and are unable to adapt to the flat structure of Evernote (I'm sure there's about 100 million or more people in this camp too), then it seems perfectly rational to move along to something else.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

I have just started using EN and was exploring how to create a hierarchy of stacks.  To my disappointment it cannot be done.  What I find more distressing about this product is that EN has apparently opted to not address the issue other than to say that it might, maybe, could be, possibly, something to consider in the future...or not.

 

Then there are the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above.  One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more.

 

I'm sorry, but I don't have all that time to invest.  The cross platform access is great.  But it doesn't override my organizational wants/needs.  I need to be up and running quickly.  If I had nested stacks available, I would have been on the road to purchasing, and implementing, a business or premium account.  As it stands now, I am moving on to a different solution or going to keep doing what I am doing.  I wonder how much business has been lost by people who just gave up and went on to other solutions and didn't spend the time to express their displeasure.

 

Go ahead, keep preaching that we need to change our ways of thinking about organizational structure.  I am moving on.  Change your tune and offer nested stacks and maybe I'll be back.

 

You make generalizations like "the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above"  I'm pretty sure no one has berated anyone.  However, we do say if that's a deal breaker for you, then sure, you need to find another app.  I don't know why anyone would take offense to that, since it's honest.

 

I also don't get why "One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more." is offensive to you.  Pretty much every new app takes some learning in order to use it to it's fullest extent. 

 

And finally, as I said above, if sub notebooks are a deal breaker for you, then yes, you need to find another app that better suits your needs.  Different strokes for different folks & that's why there's chocolate & vanilla. 

 

Good luck!

[jefito 5,589]

I have just started using EN and was exploring how to create a hierarchy of stacks.  To my disappointment it cannot be done.  What I find more distressing about this product is that EN has apparently opted to not address the issue other than to say that it might, maybe, could be, possibly, something to consider in the future...or not.

You want to use Evernote, you need to use it as it's constituted today. Making feature requests is of course fine, indeed, they're welcome, but there's no promise that all features requested will be implemented.

 

Then there are the EN evangelists on the different threads who subtly, and not so subtly, berate the rest of us for not adopting the organizational structure that is given to us from above.  One poster even said that she learned by experimenting on the program daily and keeps learning something new and hinted the rest of us just need to buckle down and study more.

I would say that "berating" doesn't describe what's being said. You didn't post a link to the quote that you reference, but surely it's good practice to learn how a system works before implementing it in a critical workflow. I.e., you need to study it (which can include asking questions of knowledgeable users, such as are found here in the forums).

 

I'm sorry, but I don't have all that time to invest.  The cross platform access is great.  But it doesn't override my organizational wants/needs.  I need to be up and running quickly.  If I had nested stacks available, I would have been on the road to purchasing, and implementing, a business or premium account.  As it stands now, I am moving on to a different solution or going to keep doing what I am doing.  I wonder how much business has been lost by people who just gave up and went on to other solutions and didn't spend the time to express their displeasure.

Something to wonder about for those who prefer to spend their time to wondering about such things. As it stands, Evernote doesn't appear (to you anyways) to meet your needs at this time, something that only you can determine. That being the case, looking at other solutions is highly rational.

 

Go ahead, keep preaching that we need to change our ways of thinking about organizational structure.  I am moving on.  Change your tune and offer nested stacks and maybe I'll be back.

Remember that the evangelists are not Evernote employees. We need to be practical about Evernote usage, just like other users. Evernote is what it is; if you try to use it as if it were something else, you'll probably run into difficulties. We're happy to try to advise people with actual issues in using Evernote or how to approach certain scenarios, but we have no sway over Evernote's design. As for Evernote themselves, their point of view has been represented pretty well in the current lengthy thread (I think it's been merged with others over time); look for posts by Evernote CEO 'engberg'. From 2008 onwards, as far as we know, they've stuck with flat notebooks and tags over nested stacks / notebooks as their guiding organizational scheme.

[iggyOregon 0]

I've been using EN superficially for several years, but I just bought EN Essentials and I'm working to up my game. This is my first post to the forum. Sorry if this is long, but it's an interesting issue.

 

I found this topic because, like many others, I did a search for 'nested stacks', and I learned almost immediately that there are no nested stacks, and no nested folders. As someone else mentioned, the thread then migrated to the philosophy of why or how, which I also find to be quite interesting. I think the real issue is one of information management and organizational philosophy, by no means a trivial topic. 

 

If you notice in iOS 7, for example, there are only two hierarchical levels, the desktop, and one level of folders. They recently expanded so a folder can hold more apps, and you can scroll through several 'pages' of icons within the folder, but it is still only one level of folders. And I'm sure everyone recognizes the extent to which iOS 7 and OS X are converging. I read some time ago that Steve Jobs had a vision to largely do away with folders on every platform. This seemed bass-ackwrds to me at the time, for several reasons. First, hierarchical folders have real world equivalents. A piece of paper may be stapled to others. The document goes into a manila folder --> hanging folder --> drawer sections --> drawer --> filing cabinet --> file room --> building. Each group defines a hierarchy; if a topic requires more than one drawer the contents are continued into another drawer, but this can simply be considered an extension of the first drawer -- it remains at the same organizational level. The second reason for resisting change is the fact that we've all been doing this on our computers for 20 or 30 years. Our brains work this way.

 

Let's look at another strategy that might be considered diametrically opposed. Every document receives a sequential number as it is entered into the system, AND it is filed in sequential order. NO HIERARCHY WHATSOEVER! A large (and growing) index of 'tags' or

'categories' is created, and prior to being filed, each documented is labeled with any number of relevant tags. At the same time, the 'tag index' receives a notation that a new entry has just been filed, say '#20140708_00004' -- physically stored by this acquisition number. Storage location provides NO indication of content. 

 

Having done this, the 'tag index' resides in a computerized data base, and can be extensively searched using any combination of Boolean operators (for expansion) and filters (for contraction). A search result returns a list of documents that fit the search criteria, and they are easily (?!) retrieved via the sequential numbering system.

 

One more restriction applies to both strategies - for many reasons (error checking, space, etc.), we want to maintain ONE, and ONLY ONE copy of any given document.

 

Here's where it becomes interesting! Assuming a meticulous hierarchical system, -- with the right knowledge and training (and 'road-maps'?), it should be possible to find any individual document. Tags are not required. The great disadvantage, however, is that required files may be stored all over the place, depending on the original organizational scheme. I'll need one set of documents if I'm planning my garden (seed info, lot dimensions, sun direction, fertilizer), and another set (county records, purchase agreement, deed, lot dimensions) if I am dealing with an easement to my property. Depending on my needs, these documents may be located in different files, or different file cabinets, or different buildings!

 

Granted, it takes time and some thinking to enter tags to each document, but this does get easier and easier as your personal collection of tags begins to mature. Once labeled, however, the ability to retrieve the necessary information becomes much, much more powerful. 

 

IF (and this is a big IF) we had really good search engines, (e.g. Spotlight is getting better, but ... ), AND our documents were OCR'd and indexed, THEN we should be able to find our documents wherever they are located. Spotlight is getting better, but I have found Windows search engines to be particularly useless. Notice, however, that this really constitutes a super-set of tags!

 

I suspect these fundamental differences lie behind the evolution of computer systems. Yes, it would be nice if EN would keep us better informed, but they're probably feeling their way just like everyone else, while trying to survive and grow in a competitive market. I'm going to put some real effort into tags over the next year or so, with the expectation (???!??) that my digital files will be becoming much more manageable. I'm (cautiously) optimistic, but all such strategies are prone to collapse under their own weight. 

 

Wish me luck. I'll report back periodically and let you know how it's going.

 

iggy

[Wordsgood 526]

Sounds great, Iggy! I'd love to hear how it goes for you.

[phils 220]

iggy,

 

For another approach to having a meticulous hierarchical system (I liked your phrase there) for your Evernote information, you might want to check out our TuskTools Treeliner solution.

[Wordsgood 526]

But you haven't yet released Treeliner for sale have you, Phils? I thought you told SahilC that the other day. Or is my memory playing tricks on me...again?!

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

iggy,

 

For another approach to having a meticulous hierarchical system (I liked your phrase there) for your Evernote information, you might want to check out our TuskTools Treeliner solution.

 

Phils, TuskTools Treeliner is a GREAT tool.  I strongly encourage everyone to view the excellent YouTube video if you have any interest in outliners or hierarchy.  For those of you who don't think hierarchical systems add any value, I challenge you to watch this video.  It might just open your eyes to a great new way of organizing.

 

I should mention that it integrates tightly with Evernote.

 

Phils, I'd love to see a Mac version.  Any chance of one being available any time soon?

 

Finally, ATTN Evernote Designers.  You should view this video to see an excellent, powerful, yet simple way to construct complex boolean searches.  

[Wordsgood 526]

So it is out for purchase now?

iggy,

For another approach to having a meticulous hierarchical system (I liked your phrase there) for your Evernote information, you might want to check out our TuskTools Treeliner solution.

Phils, TuskTools Treeliner is a GREAT tool. I strongly encourage everyone to view the excellent YouTube video if you have any interest in outliners or hierarchy. For those of you who don't think hierarchical systems add any value, I challenge you to watch this video. It might just open your eyes to a great new way of organizing.

I should mention that it integrates tightly with Evernote.

Phils, I'd love to see a Mac version. Any chance of one being available any time soon?

Finally, ATTN Evernote Designers. You should view this video to see an excellent, powerful, yet simple way to construct complex boolean searches.

[phils 220]

JMichael,

Thanks so much for the nice words!  I would love to do a Mac version, the biggest challenge is that I've yet to find a Tree tool on the Mac platform that provides the sophisticated UI control that's required.  I haven't given up, though; would like to do a Mac version if possible.  However, I really need to do iOS and Android versions, next, though, after Windows.

 

Wordsgood,

No, not out yet for sale, still in beta.  I'm working on a few bug fixes now, then plan to distribute it to a wider beta audience.  As JMichael said, it's totally integrated with Evernote (each outline item IS an Evernote note) so it's a complex task to get it all right!

[Wordsgood 526]

Oh good, I haven't lost all my marbles yet!

[southtexasmike 2]

I've just done a good ol' Google search to try to learn how nest my Evernote stacks.  I've found blogs calling for EN to add this feature, blogs helping folks cope with the lack of this feature, and blogs trying to help people adapt to tagging as a clunky replacement for hierarchical organisation, and I've found this thread, which began in 2008, of which I've read the first three pages and this last page.

 

Here's my question: after six long years of people consistently asking for this feature, is there any place where EN has explained their philosophy of leaving only one level for notebook stacks?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning (and could probably learn from the read).

 

Even gMail has allowed users to create the comforting appearance of subfolders by providing for nested labels.

[jefito 5,589]

I've just done a good ol' Google search to try to learn how nest my Evernote stacks.  I've found blogs calling for EN to add this feature, blogs helping folks cope with the lack of this feature, and blogs trying to help people adapt to tagging as a clunky replacement for hierarchical organisation, and I've found this thread, which began in 2008, of which I've read the first three pages and this last page.

 

Here's my question: after six long years of people consistently asking for this feature, is there any place where EN has explained their philosophy of leaving only one level for notebook stacks?  I'm simply curious as to the reasoning (and could probably learn from the read).

You can go back and read the posts by 'engberg' in this topic -- he is the CTO of Evernote. One key quote: "What is the task you want to accomplish with hierarchical notebooks that you can't do with hierarchical tags?"

 

Even gMail has allowed users to create the comforting appearance of subfolders by providing for nested labels.

The key word there is "appearance". They don't present an actual folder hierarchy, lat time I checked (where I understand a folder hierarchy to mean that an email/note resides in exactly one folder). Labels are more or less synonymous with "tag". And tags *do* nest.

Tags are not clunky at all (or shouldn't be) for people who know how to use adjectives.

[southtexasmike 2]

Jeff,

Thanks for the tip on searching out posts by engberg. As far as the actual location of Gmail messages as opposed to their appearance, I'm already quite aware.

My Evernote app presents my growing list of notebooks as a navigation pane. One that could certainly benefit from logical classification and nesting. Until the tags can be used as a logical navigation, and not just as a search tool while we live with this ugly ten-mile long navigation panel, it's clunky.

And yes, I'm quite aware of how to use adjectives. Thanks for presenting your opinion.

[SebR 146]

Yes tags can be used as placeholder.

YYou can define some tags for hierarchical navigation. I advice you give them a special character or number as a prefix so they get stick at the top of the list.

[jefito 5,589]

My Evernote app presents my growing list of notebooks as a navigation pane. One that could certainly benefit from logical classification and nesting. Until the tags can be used as a logical navigation, and not just as a search tool while we live with this ugly ten-mile long navigation panel, it's clunky.

You can already nest to one level deep using stacks. Stacks also group notebooks together for purposes of filtering your note list, which can be helpful.

Tags can certainly be used as a navigation tool, as there are plenty of folks around in the forums who do so. In fact, they can serve as better navigational aids, as you can assign notes to more than one hierarchy which can facilitate context dependent navigation. Not sure what your use case is that precludes using tags for navigation, but we can give it a try if you care to elaborate.

My rule of thumb with regards to notebooks is to only create them when necessary. In my case, that means:

* If I want to share a set of notes with another user (e.g., my work account)

* If I want a set of notes to always be available on a mobile device (these are "offline" notebooks)

* If I want a set of notes that I want to remain local to a machine, never synced to the Evernote servers (a rare circumstance for me)

This leaves me with a relatively small set of notebooks (less than 20 in each of my two accounts), which I further organize using several stacks.

I do understand that other use cases may require many notebooks. Evernote may not be the right application for those.

[southtexasmike 2]

You can already nest to one level deep using stacks. Stacks also group notebooks together for purposes of filtering your note list, which can be helpful.

 

I'm aware of this.  I would intuitively group meetings into substacks, but since I can't do that, I'm having to find another way.

 

 

Tags can certainly be used as a navigation tool, as there are plenty of folks around in the forums who do so. In fact, they can serve as better navigational aids, as you can assign notes to more than one hierarchy which can facilitate context dependent navigation. Not sure what your use case is that precludes using tags for navigation, but we can give it a try if you care to elaborate.

 

I was completely unaware that tags can be used for navigation. Now that you point me that way, I've even seen how Evernote would display those tags by "tree", which sounds like exactly what I would prefer to use--but I haven't been able to find how to edit or create this "tree" on the Android app.

 

Thanks for the useful tip.

[jefito 5,589]

You can already nest to one level deep using stacks. Stacks also group notebooks together for purposes of filtering your note list, which can be helpful.

 

I'm aware of this.  I would intuitively group meetings into substacks, but since I can't do that, I'm having to find another way.

Right. That's why I'm pointing you towards tags, which I understand may or may not suffice for your needs, but you should at least know about them. 

I was completely unaware that tags can be used for navigation. Now that you point me that way, I've even seen how Evernote would display those tags by "tree", which sounds like exactly what I would prefer to use--but I haven't been able to find how to edit or create this "tree" on the Android app.

Yeah, support on the Android app for this stuff is not there, unfortunately. A problem with the mobile apps is that they tend to lag the desktop apps. You can do it in one of the desktop applications (Windows., Mac), or also in the web app, but dragging a tag onto another tag. Move a tag to the top by dragging to the Tags list header.

[southtexasmike 2]

I had logged into the web app to try it there and discovered it just now.  Busy tagging everything.

 

If it can provide the pseudo-nested-filing experience similar to gmail, then I'll be happy. Will know just now.

 

Thanks!

[southtexasmike 2]

Got it done, and while functional, the interface on the tablet is clunky. Nice on the webapp, though.

 

Thanks again for the tip. :/

[jefito 5,589]

Got it done, and while functional, the interface on the tablet is clunky. Nice on the webapp, though.

 

Thanks again for the tip. :/

Glad to hear it -- thanks for sticking with us while we sorted out our conceptual stuff.

[kevind3207 1]

A tagging system makes sense if you think of the whole system as a collection of completely independent notes. You create a note, you add the tags, you search for tags to find what you want.

 

But it doesn't make as much sense if you consider the notes to be related to each other. Suppose you're writing a book, and you've got one note per chapter, and the chapters themselves are further divided into a note per section. Now you want a note that collects up all the subnotes for the chapter, and a note that collects up all the chapters into a book, and the whole thing tied together with an integrated table of contents.

 

To mimic this with tags you can create a tag called "My Book" with subtags "Chapter 1", "Chapter 2", etc, and you just use the tags as your navigator. It's not exactly the same as a neatly *integrated* table of contents within the book itself, but it sorta works.

 

But now what happens if you want the book itself to have a tag? You can tag a note, but you can't tag a tag.

 

Tags are also problematic in that they are always alphabetical, so if you want any kind of custom ordering, I guess you'd have to number them. I just don't think tags alone are good for organizing related material that is stored in separate notes.

[SebR 146]

Nested tags in the UI can help "visually" but structured tags make the hierarchy.

 

- myBook

-- myBook:ch1

-- myBook:ch2

...

if you want all note about the book -> tag:myBook*

And you can use the "parent tag", myBook, for the book itself.

[kevind3207 1]

I meant suppose I want to tag myBook with real tags such as "history", "19th century", and "us presidents". Since the myBook tag exists as a tag to shoehorn the tagging system into a navigation system, and since tags themselves can't have tags, then i don't see a way to do it.

[gazumped 11,665]

I meant suppose I want to tag myBook with real tags such as "history", "19th century", and "us presidents". Since the myBook tag exists as a tag to shoehorn the tagging system into a navigation system, and since tags themselves can't have tags, then i don't see a way to do it.

 

It can take a while to get used to a flat filing system,  but it's no less flexible than any other - just different.  You could use a randomly generated password as a title/tag (©BnF) - my LastPass just gave me "pP3lVOa1" - so your hierarchy runs -

 

<pP3lVOa1> <19c> <presidents>

   <pP3lVOa1 - chapter 01>

   <pP3lVOa1 - chapter 02>

   etc..

 

And by using the TOC feature (in some - all?? - clients) you can create an index of chapters / sections with direct links to those notes.

[SebR 146]

Ok, I didn't understand what you meant Kevin.

 

There must be several ways to do that, it depends of what you want to do with notes.

You can have one index note per book. You can use it as a summary and TOC for other notes relative to the book...and you can give this index notes thematic tags.

 

Tags you can also organize with nested tags & hierarchy, or you can just use  keywords at the beginning of the notes... the hardest thing IMO with EN is often to make a choice.

[jefito 5,589]

A tagging system makes sense if you think of the whole system as a collection of completely independent notes. You create a note, you add the tags, you search for tags to find what you want.

 

But it doesn't make as much sense if you consider the notes to be related to each other. 

??? Tags can be obviously used to show a relationship between notes. In fact, that's really a defining characteristic of tags.

 

Now they may not easily be able to express all of the relationships between notes that some users want to express, but that's a different matter. In your case, you could have a tag for the book, and a number of generic tags for Chapter1, Chapter2, Section1, Section2, etc. Apply as needed. This would give you ordering, but you can certain search on "tag:MyBook tag:Chapter3 tag:Section*", say, to pull out all of the sections in chapter 3 of your book. Somewhat equivalently, you could just make your book into a notebook, with the generic tags as before.

[kevind3207 1]

jefito, your solution sounds like object-oriented CSS. You have to repeat the entire ancestral tag lineage on every single note. Could get tedious.

 

Also, search results are returned in alphabetical tag order, are they not? So if you want any kind of ordering of the child content relative to the parent, you have to number the tags.

[jefito 5,589]

jefito, your solution sounds like object-oriented CSS. You have to repeat the entire ancestral tag lineage on every single note. Could get tedious.

 

Also, search results are returned in alphabetical tag order, are they not? So if you want any kind of ordering of the child content relative to the parent, you have to number the tags.

That's not my solution; that's just a workaround used by some users. I don't use it myself, but it's a possibility, and it does have some search advantages with judicious use of the wildcard ('*').

 

Search results are ordered in whatever way your note list is ordered (I use Created date, reversed almost all the time). But no, you wouldn't get any ordering based on tag name, unless you were in list view, sorting by tags, which is supported in some Evernote clients (Windows, for one).