Perspective...

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

Or maybe just "fun with stats".

 

The always entertaining Linux thread was started 2/21/09 (that's over FIVE years ago) & has 437 replies.

 

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/22658-request-evernote-for-linux/

 

The Pentultimate 6.0 released thread was started 11/13/14 - SIX days ago & has (at this exact moment in time)  326 replies...

 

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/74824-penultimate-60-released/

[ScottLougheed 1,316]

In addition to the Official Penultimate 6.0 thread you link to with 326 replies, there's also the "unofficial"      Really unhappy with new [Penultimate] version     thread with another 102 replies, also only six days old. 

 

I know there are a couple other little linux threads kicking around, but none with 102 posts. 

[CalS 5,280]

Just took a swing through some of the Penultimate upgrade posts.  And I thought folks were p i s s e d at the recent web UI change.  Not even a contest!!!  Talk about a company going paws up on a release,,,.

 

No added value here, sorry for that, it's just sweet mysteries of life sometimes.  QA must be a lost art in some corners of the world.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

Yeah, quite honestly, the Penultimate overhaul sounds like a junior programmer was the PM on that. I mean, existing notes compiled into ONE SINGLE SCROLLING NOTE...??? And if people really are losing data...

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

Actually, I think Jamie (longtime iOS PM and current VP of mobile) was in charge of the project, though I don't know who the PM was below her. Based on posts I have seen so far, my take on it is that they have a vision, they believe users will like it, but they don't think they rolled it out well, and even though no one lost data (apparently), they regret that it caused a lot of unnecessary confusion. This suggests that they'll make some improvements to smooth the transition, but they have no plans on taking a step backwards to the previous version of Penultimate. Users might be better off getting used to the existing app, offering feedback, and waiting for improvements along these lines. That's just my take on it, of course.

 

I'm not sure you should be riling up the linux folks bnf. or, are you hoping to turn their jousting at windmills into a spectator event during your free time?

[Frank.dg 1,385]

Actually, I think Jamie (longtime iOS PM and current VP of mobile) was in charge of the project, though I don't know who the PM was below her. Based on posts I have seen so far, my take on it is that they have a vision, they believe users will like it, but they don't think they rolled it out well, and even though no one lost data (apparently), they regret that it caused a lot of unnecessary confusion. This suggests that they'll make some improvements to smooth the transition, but they have no plans on taking a step backwards to the previous version of Penultimate. Users might be better off getting used to the existing app, offering feedback, and waiting for improvements along these lines. That's just my take on it, of course.

 

I'm not sure you should be riling up the linux folks bnf. or, are you hoping to turn their jousting at windmills into a spectator event during your free time?

Looks like to me that post seriously acknowledged the outrage... And as a result made some significant changes to the new release to be rolled out this week. This doesn't just suggest they'll make improvements. It flat out says they've acknowldeged the screwup and are making significant changes to the penultimate app. These changes alone will address the greater part of the grievances voices over the last 6 days. Your take is more of a watered down summary of an article that by this stage many have read for themselves.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

 

Actually, I think Jamie (longtime iOS PM and current VP of mobile) was in charge of the project, though I don't know who the PM was below her. Based on posts I have seen so far, my take on it is that they have a vision, they believe users will like it, but they don't think they rolled it out well, and even though no one lost data (apparently), they regret that it caused a lot of unnecessary confusion. This suggests that they'll make some improvements to smooth the transition, but they have no plans on taking a step backwards to the previous version of Penultimate. Users might be better off getting used to the existing app, offering feedback, and waiting for improvements along these lines. That's just my take on it, of course.

 

I'm not sure you should be riling up the linux folks bnf. or, are you hoping to turn their jousting at windmills into a spectator event during your free time?

Looks like to me that post seriously acknowledged the outrage... And as a result made some significant changes to the new release to be rolled out this week. This doesn't just suggest they'll make improvements. It flat out says they've acknowldeged the screwup and are making significant changes to the penultimate app. These changes alone will address the greater part of the grievances voices over the last 6 days. Your take is more of a watered down summary of an article that by this stage many have read for themselves.

 

 

That post? You mean the one made by Jamie Hull? I am not sure how I watered that down. I restated in one sentence my takeaway. If people would like to read it, they can go here. 

http://blog.evernote.com/blog/2014/11/19/note-penultimate/

 

What is the "screwup" as you understand it? My take, as I said above, is that they are apologizing for the way the app was rolled out, not the design. In Jamie's words: "We do believe that we’re taking Penultimate in the right direction, but this was not the way to unveil our vision."

 

They explicity said they will not roll back. There will be "fixes" and "improvements." There are "changes" to the process, but I do not see anything about "changes" to the app. Maybe I missed something (this is a link to Jamie's Twitter feed -- she is actually a pretty cool and interesting person when she's not wearing her Evernote hat).

https://twitter.com/RedOnWheels/status/532998175108263936

 

Anyhow, I wasn't trying to water anything down, and I am not trying to quibble over semantics. I was trying to clarify that experienced developers (Jamie) are working on the app, that no data has been lost, and restate what I think their direction seems to be going forward. I think I my observations were correct. If they were not, please let me know. 

 

In addition, I was making a suggestion to users based on my takeaway and experience. I strongly recommend people keep offering feedback. However, it seems to me that they should also adapt themselves to the app in its current state (or, perhaps in its soon-to-be-improved state) instead of asking for a rollback, because it does not look likely that they will go back to the previous version. Again, this is just my opinion, and users can take it or leave it.

[Frank.dg 1,385]

Hi GM,

first of all, I'd like to apologize for the harsh way that I put it. First and foremost. Also, I do appreciate your response in light of that. Just to briefly explain my imprudence, since your post deserves some sort of an explanation...

 

Elsewhere, I actually praised Jamie's/ Evernote's response and even defended the post. I mean, how much more apologetic can one reasonably get under the circumstances? Your question about what the "screwup" is as I see it is similar to what most people have expressed... but that was not my focus here... I was more so of the opinion that you were somehow detracting from the apology that Jamie/ Evernote offered - what she herself stated: 

 

"We’re sorry. We screwed up. We’ve heard your feedback, and are going to make things better."

 

I, personally, am satisfied (for the most part) with the response. It was more your choice of words which seemed to suggest that they were pretty much unmoved, unbending and nonchalant - when you say "This suggests they'll make some improvements"... "Users might be better off getting used to the existing app...". I see quite the opposite. They did more than suggest. They've mobilized rather quickly around this issue to come out with a very speedy new release this week. In that sense, they have heard the users and have taken some rather invasive measures as far as software roll-outs go. 

 

It just seemed to me that in many of your posts recently, you were suggesting that people resign themselves to their fate (Evernote's vision - which I am not against) and get with the program, because either way, there was not much they could do. Getting back to the Jamie's post, I see a more bending Evernote than we have come to speculate in recent weeks. I saw the post as well balanced (except for brushing off the loss of data) and I think will bring down the level of angst at least some. 

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

Hi GM,

first of all, I'd like to apologize for the harsh way that I put it. First and foremost. Also, I do appreciate your response in light of that. Just to briefly explain my imprudence, since your post deserves some sort of an explanation...

 

Elsewhere, I actually praised Jamie's/ Evernote's response and even defended the post. I mean, how much more apologetic can one reasonably get under the circumstances? Your question about what the "screwup" is as I see it is similar to what most people have expressed... but that was not my focus here... I was more so of the opinion that you were somehow detracting from the apology that Jamie/ Evernote offered - what she herself stated: 

 

"We’re sorry. We screwed up. We’ve heard your feedback, and are going to make things better."

 

I, personally, am satisfied (for the most part) with the response. It was more your choice of words which seemed to suggest that they were pretty much unmoved, unbending and nonchalant - when you say "This suggests they'll make some improvements"... "Users might be better off getting used to the existing app...". I see quite the opposite. They did more than suggest. They've mobilized rather quickly around this issue to come out with a very speedy new release this week. In that sense, they have heard the users and have taken some rather invasive measures as far as software roll-outs go. 

 

It just seemed to me that in many of your posts recently, you were suggesting that people resign themselves to their fate (Evernote's vision - which I am not against) and get with the program, because either way, there was not much they could do. Getting back to the Jamie's post, I see a more bending Evernote than we have come to speculate in recent weeks. I saw the post as well balanced (except for brushing off the loss of data) and I think will bring down the level of angst at least some. 

 

Hi. Thanks for clarifying what you meant. I'll try to explain in a little more detail where I am coming from.

 

My comment about their regret was meant to encapsulate her apologetic tone, and was not intended to detract from the apology. I actually did not make an explicit comment one way or another on the apology. If you want to know, though, I don't think the apology was necessary at all. Superfluous apologies apparently build trust among consumers, but I'm not terribly interested in them myself. It doesn't make me feel better (or worse) to hear her say she thinks they screwed up. I would have been fine with her saying she thinks they didn't do X,Y, and Z as well as they should have and she'll make sure to improve next time. I won't be "satisfied" until I see something happen. Actions speak louder than words, and all that

 

From my perspective, the Evernote team released an update to the app. It had some bugs. It had some questionable design decisions. But, no data was lost. This seems to happen every day with apps on my iPad, so I kind of consider this par for the course. I don't like it, and I certainly voice my displeasure, but that's how things have worked since the iPad came out, so I guess I have become acclimated to regular disruptions. Am I a pessimist?

 

Maybe. I see myself more as practical-minded or a realist (take your pick). I figure developers at any company are going to do something I won't like, apps will fail, etc., so I have built a lot of redundancy into my workflow. I assume something will go wrong somewhere, or developers will take apps in some direction I don't want to go, and I have plans in place to minimize disruptions. I didn't used to do this in the past, and I suffered for my lack of preparation.

 

I am not saying users shouldn't be up in arms when they come across something they don't like. I do it all the time! Hence, my "GrumpyMonkey" monicker. That's why I said: "I strongly recommend people keep offering feedback." In my experience, Evernote has always been willing to bend, and they listen when users strongly voice their disapproval. I've found the developers, especially Jamie, to be extremely interested in what users have to say. I wouldn't expect them to break, though, and go backwards to the previous version (as many people have requested). I would also caution people not to read this as a capitulation to all (dozens?) of their demands. I am not even sure I would want them to. Some of the fundamental changes are likely to stick around, because they are committed to them, and that is a good thing.

 

In short, I'd offer the famous words of Reinhold Niebuhr (religious references and "superfluous words" removed):

 

give us the serenity to accept what cannot be changed,

the courage to change what can,

and the wisdom to know one from the other.

[Frank.dg 1,385]

Thanks GM,

I see where you're coming from a whole lot more clearly now. Thanks for taking the time out to expand on that. Surprisingly I would actually lean towards your perspective on things. I tend to frustrate people with my own blend of pragmatism, practicality and forward thinking... which makes it all the more confusing why I would have taken exception to whatever it was I thought I picked up or what I imagined may have been omitted from your post. I think I responded too soon, because in fact, I could have read between the lines. Either way, being a brand new day, and looking at your post from today's perspective, I wouldn't have felt the need to comment. In other words, I don't see it as a big deal. Isn't it interesting how people can be so invested in and opinionated about a piece of software (and rightly so)!?

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

Thanks GM,

I see where you're coming from a whole lot more clearly now. Thanks for taking the time out to expand on that. Surprisingly I would actually lean towards your perspective on things. I tend to frustrate people with my own blend of pragmatism, practicality and forward thinking... which makes it all the more confusing why I would have taken exception to whatever it was I thought I picked up or what I imagined may have been omitted from your post. I think I responded too soon, because in fact, I could have read between the lines. Either way, being a brand new day, and looking at your post from today's perspective, I wouldn't have felt the need to comment. In other words, I don't see it as a big deal. Isn't it interesting how people can be so invested in and opinionated about a piece of software (and rightly so)!?

 

Thanks for writing. I'm always happy to enjoy a nice conversation here, and this is exactly the kind of discussion I prefer to see on the forums. Who am I to complain if someone carefully reads my post and writes equally careful responses

 

So many times we get users just jumping in for one angry post, and I'd like to see them stick around so that we can build a community, but often, all they see are rantings and ravings around them, so they never return. The more we have of these substantive discussions, the better. It might encourage some people to stick around a bit longer. 

[CalS 5,280]

Sounds like things will be getting better for Penultimate users, but as GM states, time will tell.  Hard to gauge how much of the trust capital will be regained by EN in the process, time will tell there as well.  

 

One comment I might make (not even tongue in cheek); I have some certainty that if I uniformly made decisions, executed upon them, and then asked my spouse for feedback it would not make for a happy house.  There is some balancing act between a company's vision, their product and the customers they serve.  

 

Assuming that the forum feedback is representative of the EN community at large, that balance is tottering a bit based upon the recent Web and Penultimate releases.  My hope would be that the aforementioned blog post is recognition of that by some sector of EN management.

[Nadya De Angelis 24]

There was a data loss. Many people reported it here including me. Notes that weren't synchronized for one reason or another were wiped out. The same thing only on bigger scale happened in March 2013 (forced password reset). 

 

It is weird that Evernote does not accept it as data loss. An unsynchronized note equals a note that doesn't exist? 

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

There was a data loss. Many people reported it here including me. Notes that weren't synchronized for one reason or another were wiped out. The same thing only on bigger scale happened in March 2013 (forced password reset). 

 

It is weird that Evernote does not accept it as data loss. An unsynchronized note equals a note that doesn't exist?

i don't know the answer. have you heard back from support? let us know what they say.

[Nadya De Angelis 24]

 

There was a data loss. Many people reported it here including me. Notes that weren't synchronized for one reason or another were wiped out. The same thing only on bigger scale happened in March 2013 (forced password reset). 

 

It is weird that Evernote does not accept it as data loss. An unsynchronized note equals a note that doesn't exist?

i don't know the answer. have you heard back from support? let us know what they say.

 

 

"Unfortunately, there's nothing I can to recover those specific notes that were unsynchronized."

[ScottLougheed 1,316]

 

 

There was a data loss. Many people reported it here including me. Notes that weren't synchronized for one reason or another were wiped out. The same thing only on bigger scale happened in March 2013 (forced password reset). 

 

It is weird that Evernote does not accept it as data loss. An unsynchronized note equals a note that doesn't exist?

i don't know the answer. have you heard back from support? let us know what they say.

 

 

"Unfortunately, there's nothing I can to recover those specific notes that were unsynchronized."

 

While this is understandably frustrating, if the notes never hit Evernote's servers, then it seems logical that there is nothing they can do. 

 

That being said, it is 100% inexcusable for an update to cause data loss of any kind, regardless of whether the data were stored locally or on Evernote's servers. The data shouldn't have been lost in the first place.