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I guess that this is what this topic has come down to: trying to make meaningful distinction between "moaning" and "whining"...

DrPhil.com

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Nevertheless, I like both whining and moaning at times, even if neither of them add any value to my life or help me in any practical sense.

Just waiting for the obligatory "you're just arguing semantics"... :)

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To the rescue, "you're just arguing semantics".  Thanks for typing it above, all I had to do was cut/paste.   :) 

 

And obviously the difference in whining and moaning is the pitch at which the message is delivered. 

 

This is sarcasm, so please no flaming.

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Nevertheless, I like both whining and moaning at times, even if neither of them add any value to my life or help me in any practical sense.

Just waiting for the obligatory "you're just arguing semantics"... :)

 

 

I disagree.

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Nevertheless, I like both whining and moaning at times, even if neither of them add any value to my life or help me in any practical sense.

Just waiting for the obligatory "you're just arguing semantics"... :)

I disagree.

With? 'Cause I am waiting for that blessed moment. :)

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Nevertheless, I like both whining and moaning at times, even if neither of them add any value to my life or help me in any practical sense.

Just waiting for the obligatory "you're just arguing semantics"... :)

I disagree.

With? 'Cause I am waiting for that blessed moment. :)

 

 

I disagree wholeheartedly with the word, *"semantics:P

 

*just kidding 

 

Ok... no more derailing on my part. This is a very worthwhile and serious thread that deserved to run its course.

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Ok... no more derailing on my part. This is a very worthwhile and serious thread that deserved to run its course.

 

Which it seems to have.

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Ok... no more derailing on my part. This is a very worthwhile and serious thread that deserved to run its course.

 

Which it seems to have.

 

 

I think the night is still young. Unless technology in general has already come to a complete halt  ;)  BTW, feel free to disagree  :P

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Alan.    Have you seen the latest Centrallo announcements?  The shared lists is definitely worth checking out.  Also, they use GeoTrust SSL and will be offering list encryption within the next 60-days.

 

From their release:

 

Last week, we released our most highly requested feature – shared checklists where multiple people can add and edit in real-time.  In addition, we significantly updated our web version and made other improvements across our iPhone, iPad and Android versions, including the ability to publish lists containing rich media - a differentiator.  Here’s an example of a published list that shows some of our key features.

 

Centrallo

Centrallo is a cloud-based, cross-platform personal productivity tool that helps people centralize, organize, prioritize and share their lives.  Think Dropbox, but for Lists – with unlimited list levels and the ability to share at any level. Our hierarchal structure is a big differentiator from our two largest competitors, Evernote and OneNote. 

 

Feedback

I’ve tried many other apps and Centrallo, by far, is the best one out there.   I’m a consultant–so I have lists for each of those jobs, I also coach sports teams–separate lists for those teams, 4 kids in 3 school–more lists, and have a Command Central for my to do catchall. So you see, a well-thought our organizational app is critical.”

 

“A few months ago I stopped using Evernote and focused on Centrallo and never looked back.  I'm not sorry!”

 

Press

Organize Your Life with Centrallo – 4.3 stars

Looking for an Evernote alternative?  Centrallo might be what you’re looking for

 

Video

post-230669-0-63457700-1426536721_thumb.

post-230669-0-89852600-1426536751_thumb.

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Alan.    Have you seen the latest Centrallo announcements?  The shared lists is definitely worth checking out.  Also, they use GeoTrust SSL and will be offering list encryption within the next 60-days.

 

From their release:

 

Last week, we released our most highly requested feature – shared checklists where multiple people can add and edit in real-time.  In addition, we significantly updated our web version and made other improvements across our iPhone, iPad and Android versions, including the ability to publish lists containing rich media - a differentiator.  Here’s an example of a published list that shows some of our key features.

 

Centrallo

Centrallo is a cloud-based, cross-platform personal productivity tool that helps people centralize, organize, prioritize and share their lives.  Think Dropbox, but for Lists – with unlimited list levels and the ability to share at any level. Our hierarchal structure is a big differentiator from our two largest competitors, Evernote and OneNote. 

 

Feedback

I’ve tried many other apps and Centrallo, by far, is the best one out there.   I’m a consultant–so I have lists for each of those jobs, I also coach sports teams–separate lists for those teams, 4 kids in 3 school–more lists, and have a Command Central for my to do catchall. So you see, a well-thought our organizational app is critical.”

 

“A few months ago I stopped using Evernote and focused on Centrallo and never looked back.  I'm not sorry!”

 

Press

Organize Your Life with Centrallo – 4.3 stars

Looking for an Evernote alternative?  Centrallo might be what you’re looking for

 

Video

 

 

Roberta... thank you... interested to get some additional feedback from other EN Power Users!

 

Appreciate the post!

 

~ Alan

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Alan.    Have you seen the latest Centrallo announcements?  The shared lists is definitely worth checking out.  Also, they use GeoTrust SSL and will be offering list encryption within the next 60-days.

 

From their release:

 

Last week, we released our most highly requested feature – shared checklists where multiple people can add and edit in real-time.  In addition, we significantly updated our web version and made other improvements across our iPhone, iPad and Android versions, including the ability to publish lists containing rich media - a differentiator.  Here’s an example of a published list that shows some of our key features.

 

Centrallo

Centrallo is a cloud-based, cross-platform personal productivity tool that helps people centralize, organize, prioritize and share their lives.  Think Dropbox, but for Lists – with unlimited list levels and the ability to share at any level. Our hierarchal structure is a big differentiator from our two largest competitors, Evernote and OneNote. 

 

Feedback

I’ve tried many other apps and Centrallo, by far, is the best one out there.   I’m a consultant–so I have lists for each of those jobs, I also coach sports teams–separate lists for those teams, 4 kids in 3 school–more lists, and have a Command Central for my to do catchall. So you see, a well-thought our organizational app is critical.”

 

“A few months ago I stopped using Evernote and focused on Centrallo and never looked back.  I'm not sorry!”

 

Press

Organize Your Life with Centrallo – 4.3 stars

Looking for an Evernote alternative?  Centrallo might be what you’re looking for

 

Video

 

Roberta... thank you... interested to get some additional feedback from other EN Power Users!

 

Appreciate the post!

 

~ Alan

i think roberta is a diligent spammer, alan. she doesn't join the discussion except to promote her product. here is my response to her earlier spam.

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/66103-power-user-discontent-best-alternatives-to-en/?p=347299

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Alan.    Have you seen the latest Centrallo announcements?  The shared lists is definitely worth checking out.  Also, they use GeoTrust SSL and will be offering list encryption within the next 60-days.

 

From their release:

 

Last week, we released our most highly requested feature – shared checklists where multiple people can add and edit in real-time.  In addition, we significantly updated our web version and made other improvements across our iPhone, iPad and Android versions, including the ability to publish lists containing rich media - a differentiator.  Here’s an example of a published list that shows some of our key features.

 

Centrallo

Centrallo is a cloud-based, cross-platform personal productivity tool that helps people centralize, organize, prioritize and share their lives.  Think Dropbox, but for Lists – with unlimited list levels and the ability to share at any level. Our hierarchal structure is a big differentiator from our two largest competitors, Evernote and OneNote. 

 

Feedback

I’ve tried many other apps and Centrallo, by far, is the best one out there.   I’m a consultant–so I have lists for each of those jobs, I also coach sports teams–separate lists for those teams, 4 kids in 3 school–more lists, and have a Command Central for my to do catchall. So you see, a well-thought our organizational app is critical.”

 

“A few months ago I stopped using Evernote and focused on Centrallo and never looked back.  I'm not sorry!”

 

Press

Organize Your Life with Centrallo – 4.3 stars

Looking for an Evernote alternative?  Centrallo might be what you’re looking for

 

Video

 

 

i think roberta is a diligent spammer, alan. she doesn't join the discussion except to promote her product. here is my response to her earlier spam.

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/66103-power-user-discontent-best-alternatives-to-en/?p=347299

 

 

Good to know.  ;)

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And she keeps comparing Centrallo with EN & 1N, which is a joke. Whereas Centrallo is just a glorified list app, as Roberta says herself, EN & 1N are of course much more than that. So she completely misunderstands the issues for EN (power) users, but that is part of her sales pitch I guess.

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Yeah,  read that.  Linux and Apple users rejoice...  and if you're "afraid of downloading huge setup files"..."a good reason to avoid Evernote..."?  Really?

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Yeah,  read that.  Linux and Apple users rejoice...  and if you're "afraid of downloading huge setup files"..."a good reason to avoid Evernote..."?  Really?

 

Beebom clearly never installed EN him/herself, so with that comment about huge setup files is just shooting from the hip. What a .......

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Beedom? It's a random list of awful and great stuff with misinformation and no hands-on experience. You'd be better off looking at Wikipedia for a list of stuff to waste your time trying. For multi-platform support, in the case of power users, we keep circling back to the same thing: OneNote.That's the only viable option that has been mentioned so far, in my opinion.

OK. Let's try talking about something else instead of lightweights like Centrallo or Google Keep. How about Filemaker? It's on the Mac, Windows, iOS, and the Web. It is, in my opinion, one of the most powerful personal information managers out there. Yet, there isn't a whole lot of buzz, is there? I've been using it for more than a decade now, but have only met a handful of people who have it installed on their machines. Why?

Well, as a relational database manager, it is designed for working with lots of large data sets, and it is overkill for most folks. It's kind of like driving the space shuttle to work every day, and handles just about as well on curves. You'll want to set aside some time to immerse yourself in the world of enthusiastic FM users if you want to get a handle on it. But, with practice, I can see how it would be really helpful, especially for people looking to use Evernote as a CRM or database for their research. It's worth a think.

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It's relatively expensive which I'm sure puts people off. Only about 4-5m people want to pay $45 a year for Evernote....Big jump up to $300+

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Yeah. It is very pricey. They don't have casual users in mind -- that's for sure. For a power user with a lot of data, though, I could see its attractiveness.

Another way to look at it is that money you spend on business or premium over the course of three or four years works out to about the same amount that you'd spemd during the life cycle of a Filemaker version. It's just that the cost is front-loaded.

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Howdy.

 

For business purposes, I can say that I miss Maximizer 5.0 contact manager (ancient!).

 

I was conducting a Google search for the keywords: "integration with Evernote" ... when I found this interesting article written by an EN user:

 

 

Use case for IQTELL: super-charged CRM system 
 
 
I am going to pursue this to see if it meets by business needs better than EN alone.
EN integration is now the key for me regarding CRM capabilities.
 
Hope this proves helpful to some!
 
~ Alan

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Hi Alan,

 

I have just dropped the latest version of Maximizer having been a user since it was a dos package.

 

To be honest, it was getting so unwieldy and power hungry I gave up trying. Every time I bought a new Windows computer with the latest OS I had to change to a new version. I assessed the cloud version, but it was to honest totally useless and very costly.

 

The solution I found was Microsoft's Business Contact Manager - BCM - which is a part of Outlook. I imported all my contacts and have been amazed at just how good this is. I tend to not bother keeping many notes in it, but continue to use Evernote for all my Note and customer contact information.

 

Best regards

 

Chris

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For multi-platform support, in the case of power users, we keep circling back to the same thing: OneNote.That's the only viable option that has been mentioned so far, in my opinion.

 

Even though the below post (link) is from about 4 years back, I think it gives an excellent summary of both Evernote and OneNOte's offerings. Interesting that for this reformed OneNote user, a system of nested folders lent itself to clutter and became unwieldy. I know it's not primarily nested folders that some are after... that's just a side comment. 

 

http://www.livefreeorscream.com/2011/why-i-switched-from-onenote-to-evernote

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Although I'm not a big OneNote fan, a lot has changed in OneNote over the last 4 years.  For one thing, they didn't even have a Mac or iOS version back then.  In the last 6 months alone, OneNote has made a number of updates for both Mac and iOS.

Also, they have recently improve their web clipper, which was, IMO, a major shortcoming previously.

 

Although I like hierarchical organization, I also very much like and need Tags.  One OneNote show-stopper for me continues to be the inability to search for Tags across everything.

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ATTN:  Mac Users -- Microsoft Office 2016 (w/OneNote) Mac Now Available

 

Microsoft has released the Microsoft Office 2016 Mac Preview package, which I assume is a late, mature, BETA version.

It is available for FREE download here.  Download requires 2.6GB, and full install requires > 5GB.

 

It includes OneNote, but perhaps more important is Microsoft's strategy of connecting everything to the Internet Cloud, and making Office documents available on a variety of platforms.

 

There is very tight integration among all of the Office Apps and OneNote, in which all Notes can be stored in the MS Cloud.

 

I post this NOT as a promotion of MS Office or MS OneNote, but as an opportunity for all of us to see where Microsoft is headed.

In the past, I have found MS OneNote to be inadequate for my needs, but MS is making very frequent updates with significant improvements.

So, in my own best interest, I cannot ignore these developments.

 

I have downloaded and am currently testing MS Office 2016 Mac Preview on one of my TEST Macs, running Yosemite.

So far, I have taken quick-looks at Word, Outlook, and OneNote, and I am very impressed with what I have see so far.  But the night is young . . .

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Hi Alan,

 

I have just dropped the latest version of Maximizer having been a user since it was a dos package.

 

To be honest, it was getting so unwieldy and power hungry I gave up trying. Every time I bought a new Windows computer with the latest OS I had to change to a new version. I assessed the cloud version, but it was to honest totally useless and very costly.

 

The solution I found was Microsoft's Business Contact Manager - BCM - which is a part of Outlook. I imported all my contacts and have been amazed at just how good this is. I tend to not bother keeping many notes in it, but continue to use Evernote for all my Note and customer contact information.

 

Best regards

 

Chris

 

Howdy, Chris:

 

I loved Maximizer v. 5.0. I think my last upgrade was v. 8... and it had grown to a multi-GIG monster... so I got bid farewell to Maximizer. If only EN could be integrated with the contact management capabilities of Max 5... I would love it and it would make my business life oh so much easier!

 

I don't use MS Outlook... so BCM is not an option in this neck of the woods!

 

Take care!

 

~Alan

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Microsoft for the Mac is a huge improvement, and OneNote is getting better all the time. It's quite impressive if you consider that less than a year has passed since they released it. Excel is a little buggy, but it is a huge improvement on the decrepit 2011 Mac version. That thing was never good and only got worse over time.

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Quick Update on OneNote -- Still Inferior to Evernote in Most Features

 

I had not used ON in a while, and today I tried it again with the latest OneNote Mac Ver 15.8.1

This quickly refreshed my memory:

  • ON has really great text formatting, table management, page layout, etc
  • But the Search is really poor:
    • Search box only supports general text search
    • No qualifiers (like EN) for Notebook, Section Title, or Page Title, or Tag.
    • AFAIK, the ON Mac ver doesn't support Tag Search
    • From some documentation, looks like ON Win may support a separate Tag Search, but very poor.
      Can't get a list of Notebooks, Sections, or Pages (closest analogy to EN Notes) that have the Tags
  • Tags
    • List of pre-created Tags for common stuff, like checkbox, reminder, contact, etc
    • But no ability to create your own custom tags
    • And, therefore, no Tag hierarchy
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Hey guys, just happened to see this thread.

 

It's pretty tough to see a thread like this in Evernote forums but it's the reality right...

I am a power user and its been tough to see new features added without polishing existing stuff.

 

Kind of like Apple hasnt improved the OSX Finder in years besides a tab update.

 

 

Anyway here are my suggestions for an alternative...

 

Workflowy https://workflowy.com/

Moo.do http://www.moo.do/

But the problem is you cant add pictures inline like you can in Evernote

and then this

little gem called Asana

https://asana.com/

Created by former Facebook founders really is easy to use, but check out the videos and guides.

I hope this helps

Asana This is nice

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Hey guys, just happened to see this thread.

It's pretty tough to see a thread like this in Evernote forums but it's the reality right...

I am a power user and its been tough to see new features added without polishing existing stuff.

Kind of like Apple hasnt improved the OSX Finder in years besides a tab update.

Anyway here are my suggestions for an alternative...

Workflowy https://workflowy.com/

Moo.do http://www.moo.do/

But the problem is you cant add pictures inline like you can in Evernote

and then this

little gem called Asana

https://asana.com/

Created by former Facebook founders really is easy to use, but check out the videos and guides.

I hope this helps

Asana This is nice

Just about any app has limits and use cases that don't fit, so I don't think it ought to be surprising that there are threads like this on the Evernote forums. From my perspective, at least, I'm not writing to scare people away, but to give them a sense of what is best for each situation.

Fortunately, I think the tone in the thread has been pretty good and respectful so far. I'm happy to recommend Evernote to people whose situations fit with it. In my case, the problem is mainly security / privacy issues, and I guess it really comes down to a difference in priorities / philosophy. It's not bad or good for me. It just doesn't fit.

Thanks for suggesting the alternatives!

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yeah I totally disagree. it's not a matter of use cases. it's more a matter of limits in its core functionality of note taking while being unlimited in new unrelated features like bundling a presenters tool a work chat tool in there when the basic core stuff aren't polished. for example to prove im not being a troll on os x I can't even rename my notebook from the sidebar. I have to clock in to all projects look for it again then change. It's the basics.

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If we wanted a smaller essential version of Evernote what features would you want to see.

THere would be no work chat or presentation in this mind you

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i don't particularly want any features removed. i just want encrypted notes and notebooks added. i can ignore a work chat or presentation button.

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If we wanted a smaller essential version of Evernote what features would you want to see.

THere would be no work chat or presentation in this mind you

 

It's pointless to discuss this because it is unlikely Evernote will go down this path in view of the fact that they are adding features for their business users particularly, and those can be turned off.

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Sorry, Pete, I have to disagree that it's pointless to discuss. Evernote provides this forum as one of the ways they get customer feedback and staff have mentioned a few times that feature requests and suggestion are welcome.

Does that mean this request or any other will actually be implemented? Probably not, but it's really not our place to summarily shut down suggestion from other users. We don't speak for Evernote. ☺

If we wanted a smaller essential version of Evernote what features would you want to see.

THere would be no work chat or presentation in this mind you

It's pointless to discuss this because it is unlikely Evernote will go down this path in view of the fact that they are adding features for their business users particularly, and those can be turned off.

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Posted · Hidden by Frank.dg, March 26, 2015 - Duplicate post
Hidden by Frank.dg, March 26, 2015 - Duplicate post

Sorry, Pete, I have to disagree that it's pointless to discuss. Evernote provides this forum as one of the ways they get customer feedback and staff have mentioned a few times that feature requests and suggestion are welcome.

Does that mean this request or any other will actually be implemented? Probably not, but it's really not our place to summarily shut down suggestion from other users. We don't speak for Evernote. ☺

If we wanted a smaller essential version of Evernote what features would you want to see.

THere would be no work chat or presentation in this mind you

It's pointless to discuss this because it is unlikely Evernote will go down this path in view of the fact that they are adding features for their business users particularly, and those can be turned off.

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I understand your point of view, though I don't agree with your remark that I speak for Evernote. I do not pretend to speak for Evernote: I chose the word "unlikely" on purpose & it is based on the experience we have on this forum with Evernote's attitude & some of their thinking. Although they never reveal their development intentions, we do get an indicative idea of where they are headed. And in my view they are not headed, nor seem to have the inclination towards, a stripped down version. But that is just my opinion. Others are allowed to have an entirely different opinion, this is a free forum.

 

The misunderstanding that (a lot of) people on this forum seem to have is that by just posting about a feature it is "in the bag" in terms of appearing on Evernote's development list of features. In any case, those same users seem to think that if lots of people suggest the same thing, or complain about the same thing, Evernote will take notice. Evernote may have people following these posts (e.g. G. Barry) but I seriously doubt they have a running tally with suggestions/complaints & those with the highest score will get added to Evernote's development list. I think we have to be lucid about this.

 

The best way to have a bit of a chance to get your suggestion/complaint on an Evernote list is to submit a ticket, as I pointed out to JMichael recently who also believes that moaning about your frustrations will get you somewhere with EN development staff. That is why I think it is pointless to discuss/speculate/scream/..... about a stripped down version on this forum, and hence my answer to Alwayzambitious. It was not meant to be rough.

In any case, if Alwayzambitious or you or anybody believes submitting suggestions/complaints via this forum are useful, by all means go ahead.

 

Sorry, Pete, I have to disagree that it's pointless to discuss. Evernote provides this forum as one of the ways they get customer feedback and staff have mentioned a few times that feature requests and suggestion are welcome.

Does that mean this request or any other will actually be implemented? Probably not, but it's really not our place to summarily shut down suggestion from other users. We don't speak for Evernote. ☺
 

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Posted · Hidden by Frank.dg, March 26, 2015 - Duplicate post
Hidden by Frank.dg, March 26, 2015 - Duplicate post

Me posting a thought doesn't mean I expect it to be high priority in the evernote ceo's task list. That would be unrealistic. But when many other folks like the author of this thread express frustration from not being heard is it unrealistic to expect a company to hear those concerns. We agree to disagree. Also my comment believe it or not was not for evernote staff. again they have shown already that our feedback is not taken. so it was more for other evernote users to brainstorm and comment.maybe i can start small and develop a prototype of what I want

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Me posting a thought doesn't mean I expect it to be high priority in the evernote ceo's task list. That would be unrealistic. But when many other folks like the author of this thread express frustration from not being heard is it unrealistic to expect a company to hear those concerns. We agree to disagree. Also my comment believe it or not was not for evernote staff. again they have shown already that our feedback is not taken. so it was more for other evernote users to brainstorm and comment.maybe i can start small and develop a prototype of what I want

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Evernote has a pretty decent API - anyone can go and write a lighter weight client if they have the time/inclination.

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If we wanted a smaller essential version of Evernote what features would you want to see.

THere would be no work chat or presentation in this mind you

 

It's pointless to discuss this because it is unlikely Evernote will go down this path in view of the fact that they are adding features for their business users particularly, and those can be turned off.

 

 

 

 

I chose the word "unlikely" on purpose & it is based on the experience we have on this forum with Evernote's attitude & some of their thinking....

In any case, if Alwayzambitious or you or anybody believes submitting suggestions/complaints via this forum are useful, by all means go ahead.

 

Sorry, Pete, I have to disagree that it's pointless to discuss. Evernote provides this forum as one of the ways they get customer feedback and staff have mentioned a few times that feature requests and suggestion are welcome.

Does that mean this request or any other will actually be implemented? Probably not, but it's really not our place to summarily shut down suggestion from other users. We don't speak for Evernote.

 

 

 

  1. I agree with "unlikely".
  2. I disagree with "pointless"/ "useless".
  3. I strongly DISagree with

Most of the stuff we kick around here in the forum comes in the form of problem solving and workarounds. Raising scenarios or requests, however unlikely, could (and does) lead to a great discussion. 

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A debate about the likelihood of Evernote implementing anything is a waste of time.

But there's no harm in, and we should not try to discourage, discussion about any particular feature.

If you don't think a particular feature is viable, then you're free to ignore the thread.

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Howdy, Partners!

 

We're all tied to Evernote... for the moment... because there's not yet an overwhelmingly superior alternative.

 

Sooner or later... something will give!

 

 

What do these companies have in common?

  • RCA
  • Atari
  • Oldsmobile
  • E.F. Hutton
  • MCI
  • Pan Am
  • Radio Shack
  • AOL
  • Montgomery Ward
  • Blockbuster
  • Circuit City
  • Polaroid
  • Zenith
  • Levitz Furniture
  • Tower Records
  • Borders Books
  • Sharper Image

 

 

Innovate or die: The stark message for big business

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28865268

 

 

 

 

LOL!  Something will give!

 

 

~ Alan

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Howdy, Partners!

 

We're all tied to Evernote... for the moment... because there's not yet an overwhelmingly superior alternative.

 

Sooner or later... something will give!

 

 

What do these companies have in common?

  • RCA
  • Atari
  • Oldsmobile
  • E.F. Hutton
  • MCI
  • Pan Am
  • Radio Shack
  • AOL
  • Montgomery Ward
  • Blockbuster
  • Circuit City
  • Polaroid
  • Zenith
  • Levitz Furniture
  • Tower Records
  • Borders Books
  • Sharper Image

 

 

Innovate or die: The stark message for big business

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28865268

 

 

 

 

LOL!  Something will give!

 

 

~ Alan

 

Howdy ~ Alan, an interesting & sobering thought. While this forum's title implies that some of us are looking for an alternative to Evernote, I believe that at the end of the day those same people do not really want to move away from Evernote. But what has frustrated those people is the real and/or perceived lack of Evernote's connect with its customers, its users. Of course, perception and real experience are different for everyone of us, but the minimum we probably agree on is that that connect leaves something to be desired.

 

This brings me to the real point I want to make with respect to the BBC article you point us to but that is not mentioned in there: apart from innovation, the other essential requisite for survival and success is customer satisfaction & customer connect. A paragon of accomplishment in this area is Apple, which has managed to make its customers emotionally connected to its products, not only because of design & innovation, but also because Apple listen to their customers & really hear what those customers say. Apple actually acts upon that. And its customers feel like they are part of a big family. How crafty !!

 

So, in summary I would say that none of us would like "something to give" (= break) in the case of Evernote, but Evernote certainly have to clean up their act in this area, instead of just publicly making grandiose, sweeping statements that seem out of place for many of us. They would do well to look at an Apple or other such company.

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Metrodon,

 

I hear you. I'm sure you can understand that something doesnt sit right with me

Basically I am using the API to create a simpler version of evernote and not to add a cool feature like other apps does.

 

and Personally, I just wish I had the ability to rename a notebook on the left sidebar on the mac os x

instead of taking two or three clicks to do.

Small savings add up to big savings..

I will explore the api... see whats up

 

Thanks everyone

 

Evernote has a pretty decent API - anyone can go and write a lighter weight client if they have the time/inclination.

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and Personally, I just wish I had the ability to rename a notebook on the left sidebar

 

 

 

 

Yes please!

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To rename a notebook in the left panel in Windows

 

Select the notebook, F2 to edit notebook name, then press enter

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This brings me to the real point I want to make with respect to the BBC article you point us to but that is not mentioned in there: apart from innovation, the other essential requisite for survival and success is customer satisfaction & customer connect. A paragon of accomplishment in this area is Apple, which has managed to make its customers emotionally connected to its products, not only because of design & innovation, but also because Apple listen to their customers & really hear what those customers say. Apple actually acts upon that. And its customers feel like they are part of a big family. How crafty !!

 

So, in summary I would say that none of us would like "something to give" (= break) in the case of Evernote, but Evernote certainly have to clean up their act in this area, instead of just publicly making grandiose, sweeping statements that seem out of place for many of us. They would do well to look at an Apple or other such company.

And Apple gets folks to pay a premium for the cool stuff.  This from a happy iPhone/iPad owner.  Now that's what I call marketing!   ;)

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I am on a mac.

My ideal is double click on the notebook name, the textfield turns editable, change and hit enter.

But let me check out this api

 

To rename a notebook in the left panel in Windows

 

Select the notebook, F2 to edit notebook name, then press enter

Share this post


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Metrodon,

 

I hear you. I'm sure you can understand that something doesnt sit right with me

Basically I am using the API to create a simpler version of evernote and not to add a cool feature like other apps does.

 

and Personally, I just wish I had the ability to rename a notebook on the left sidebar on the mac os x

instead of taking two or three clicks to do.

Small savings add up to big savings..

I will explore the api... see whats up

 

Thanks everyone

 

Evernote has a pretty decent API - anyone can go and write a lighter weight client if they have the time/inclination.

 

 

If it's important to you then it makes perfect sense.

 

I find a lot of the current discussion (not just here but in a lot of the semi technical media) about workflow quite interesting. I think people become obsessed with this idea of a perfect workflow that is going to make them better at what they do. I think you get better at what you do by doing it and by learning from other people that do it too. I want to use tools that help me, I know that none of them are going to be perfect but I use them to help me where they can. 

 

In this example, I wonder how many times it is necessary to rename a notebook? Unless it's a very regular occurrence I would guess that just this discussion probably ends up taking way more time than you would spend actually renaming the notebooks using the current Evernote method. Again, I'm not saying that Evernote is perfect, I'd quite like the side bar to be more editable and configurable, but I'm certainly not going to let a tiny disruption to the way I work distract me from the work I really need to do.

 

Hope that makes sense...

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In this example, I wonder how many times it is necessary to rename a notebook? Unless it's a very regular occurrence I would guess that just this discussion probably ends up taking way more time than you would spend actually renaming the notebooks using the current Evernote method. Again, I'm not saying that Evernote is perfect, I'd quite like the side bar to be more editable and configurable, but I'm certainly not going to let a tiny disruption to the way I work distract me from the work I really need to do.

Reminds me of a recent XKCD comic:

 

wasted_time.png

 

But in all seriousness, I think this is a really important statement to make. When I stopped focusing on the plethora of minutae problems I perceived in Evernote, and just dealt with it as it is... I found that by focusing on the problem, I made it a problem. It wasn't really one outside of my quest for perfection. I use what Evernote has to offer, and if it stinks at something (like PRINTING, AHEM, AHEM) I use something else. My life's gotten a whole lot less stressful when I stop staring at these teeny perceived flaws and look at the grander picture of how helpful Evernote has been in my life. I've actually immensely simplified how I use Evernote (like, dumped over 200 tags) and it's become even more useful. The quest for perfection was making Evernote useless for me -- setting it free made it once again my most necessary app on my devices. Plus, now I use a few of Evernote's very core features, as opposed to every single option it has to offer, so I'm incredibly efficient at finding and using my stuff.

 

You know how bringing a book too close to your face makes it impossible to read, but pulling it away a bit brings it into crisp focus? It's like that.

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I think that plays into it too.

 

I use Evernote for the things it's good at - pretty plain, simple notes that I want to have available wherever I am and whatever device I'm using. It's really really good at doing this task and I have plenty of this kind of note. The clipper is great too. I use Evernote where it in it's current incarnation it works better for me than any other app. If another app does it better, then why try and squeeze a round peg into a square hole.

 

I wouldn't ever dream of using Evernote to write a book, store photos or any of the other myriad of really specialised tasks that I see people try and do with it. There are so many better, specialised apps out there that are designed to do those tasks so trying to shoe horn them into Evernote is absolutely going to cause pain and frustration.

 

Despite the marketing spiel, Evernote isn't ready to be your external brain. It isn't the right place to store everything and do everything. It is however really bloody good at doing some things and I certainly would miss it if it wasn't there anymore.

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Howdy, Partners!

 

We're all tied to Evernote... for the moment... because there's not yet an overwhelmingly superior alternative.

 

Sooner or later... something will give!

 

 

What do these companies have in common?

  • RCA
  • Atari
  • Oldsmobile
  • E.F. Hutton
  • MCI
  • Pan Am
  • Radio Shack
  • AOL
  • Montgomery Ward
  • Blockbuster
  • Circuit City
  • Polaroid
  • Zenith
  • Levitz Furniture
  • Tower Records
  • Borders Books
  • Sharper Image

 

 

Innovate or die: The stark message for big business

http://www.bbc.com/news/business-28865268

 

 

 

 

LOL!  Something will give!

 

 

~ Alan

 

Howdy ~ Alan, an interesting & sobering thought. While this forum's title implies that some of us are looking for an alternative to Evernote, I believe that at the end of the day those same people do not really want to move away from Evernote. But what has frustrated those people is the real and/or perceived lack of Evernote's connect with its customers, its users. Of course, perception and real experience are different for everyone of us, but the minimum we probably agree on is that that connect leaves something to be desired.

 

This brings me to the real point I want to make with respect to the BBC article you point us to but that is not mentioned in there: apart from innovation, the other essential requisite for survival and success is customer satisfaction & customer connect. A paragon of accomplishment in this area is Apple, which has managed to make its customers emotionally connected to its products, not only because of design & innovation, but also because Apple listen to their customers & really hear what those customers say. Apple actually acts upon that. And its customers feel like they are part of a big family. How crafty !!

 

So, in summary I would say that none of us would like "something to give" (= break) in the case of Evernote, but Evernote certainly have to clean up their act in this area, instead of just publicly making grandiose, sweeping statements that seem out of place for many of us. They would do well to look at an Apple or other such company.

 

 

Howdy, Pete:

 

Appreciate your thoughtful response... in fact I had found an article about Apple that totally brings your point home:

 

 

So what's to be learned from their story?

  • Think simple - The iPad is so simple 2-year-olds can use it.

     

  • Be different - Like the iMac.

     

  • Be a risk taker and make tough decisions - Jobs partnered with Microsoft and nixed the Newton.

     

  • Make great products, and package them even better - Show customers what they want, like the iPhone did.

     

  • Create an experience - Apple did this with their stores. And hype, like Macworld does for the media.

     

  • Be confident - don't hold focus groups and ask people what they think.

     

  • Be passionate - Steve Jobs said in his Stanford commencement speech: "Have the courage to follow your heart and your intuition. They somehow already know what you truly want to become."

 

 

I am personally not an Apple user... however...

  • I think the premise of this article is INDISPUTABLE!!!
  • Apple's market turnaround and success is INDISPUTABLE!!!

 

I also would agree that there is enough SOCIAL evidence that Evernote now languishes in "customer satisfaction & customer connect."

 

In conclusion... by all appearances... Evernote could represent a modern software Titanic... repeating many of her fatal mistakes.

 

~ Alan

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Metrodon,

 

Who said it was the only issue I had. You? Thats your mistaken assumption. Again I need a bit more benefit of the doubt. Just like i sadly

had to say that "Me posting a thought doesn't mean I expect it to be high priority in the evernote ceo's task list. That would be unrealistic."

I wouldnt suggest creating a lighter app off of one suggestion.

 

 The title of the thread is targeted for power users.. a lot of software companies consider that demo when building, if you dont have a need for that, ignore

or unsubscribe. Its fine to disagree.

 

It doesnt matter how often I rename it, I ask because I know a lot of different other apps in a lot of different categories

have a feature like that...

 

It doesnt mean Im searching for perfection when I ask for the basics. We should be careful not to confuse the two.

And again do not be confused I I dont let it stop me, I just come on here to mention it even though people thinks that I let it stop me, I dont.

 

I didnt bash evernote lol, this time.. i just mentioned itd be cool if they had lighter app that focused only on notetaking.

 

To me bundling presenter, work chat into a note is like fitting a peg in square hole, speaking of someone who mentioned that. But its fine. They did.

 

Im actually being proactive and appreciate the suggestion to look into the api, but all of that other stuff you said is your assumptions and opinion.

 

 

Metrodon,

 

I hear you. I'm sure you can understand that something doesnt sit right with me

Basically I am using the API to create a simpler version of evernote and not to add a cool feature like other apps does.

 

and Personally, I just wish I had the ability to rename a notebook on the left sidebar on the mac os x

instead of taking two or three clicks to do.

Small savings add up to big savings..

I will explore the api... see whats up

 

Thanks everyone

 

Evernote has a pretty decent API - anyone can go and write a lighter weight client if they have the time/inclination.

 

 

If it's important to you then it makes perfect sense.

 

I find a lot of the current discussion (not just here but in a lot of the semi technical media) about workflow quite interesting. I think people become obsessed with this idea of a perfect workflow that is going to make them better at what they do. I think you get better at what you do by doing it and by learning from other people that do it too. I want to use tools that help me, I know that none of them are going to be perfect but I use them to help me where they can. 

 

In this example, I wonder how many times it is necessary to rename a notebook? Unless it's a very regular occurrence I would guess that just this discussion probably ends up taking way more time than you would spend actually renaming the notebooks using the current Evernote method. Again, I'm not saying that Evernote is perfect, I'd quite like the side bar to be more editable and configurable, but I'm certainly not going to let a tiny disruption to the way I work distract me from the work I really need to do.

 

Hope that makes sense...

 

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Metrodon,

 

Who said it was the only issue I had. You? Thats your mistaken assumption. Again I need a bit more benefit of the doubt. Just like i sadly

had to say that "Me posting a thought doesn't mean I expect it to be high priority in the evernote ceo's task list. That would be unrealistic."

I wouldnt suggest creating a lighter app off of one suggestion.

 

 The title of the thread is power users.. a lot of apps consider that demo when building, if you dont have a need for that, ignore

or unsubscribe. Its fine to disagree.

 

Also It doesnt matter how often I rename it, I only ask for that because I know a lot of different other apps in a lot of different categories

have a feature like that...

 

It doesnt mean Im searching for perfection when I ask for the basics. We should be careful not to confuse the two.

Again do not be confused I I dont let it stop me, I just come on here to mention it even though people thinks that I let it stop me, I dont

 

 

Its just a UX Usability thing.

 

 

Metrodon,

 

I hear you. I'm sure you can understand that something doesnt sit right with me

Basically I am using the API to create a simpler version of evernote and not to add a cool feature like other apps does.

 

and Personally, I just wish I had the ability to rename a notebook on the left sidebar on the mac os x

instead of taking two or three clicks to do.

Small savings add up to big savings..

I will explore the api... see whats up

 

Thanks everyone

 

Evernote has a pretty decent API - anyone can go and write a lighter weight client if they have the time/inclination.

 

If it's important to you then it makes perfect sense.

 

I find a lot of the current discussion (not just here but in a lot of the semi technical media) about workflow quite interesting. I think people become obsessed with this idea of a perfect workflow that is going to make them better at what they do. I think you get better at what you do by doing it and by learning from other people that do it too. I want to use tools that help me, I know that none of them are going to be perfect but I use them to help me where they can. 

 

In this example, I wonder how many times it is necessary to rename a notebook? Unless it's a very regular occurrence I would guess that just this discussion probably ends up taking way more time than you would spend actually renaming the notebooks using the current Evernote method. Again, I'm not saying that Evernote is perfect, I'd quite like the side bar to be more editable and configurable, but I'm certainly not going to let a tiny disruption to the way I work distract me from the work I really need to do.

 

Hope that makes sense...

Show me where I said it was your only problem.

I wasn't in any way criticising or assuming a value judgement to your request/point. Instead I tried to highlight what I see as being an increasing obsession with the minutiae of workflow and the impact this has on actually doing stuff.

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Ugh, please no.  Do you really change notebook names that frequently?  I really don't want an accidental double click to believe that I want to rename a notebook.  I hate Finder/Windows Explorer for the same reason.  It's constantly assuming I want to rename everything.  

 

 

 

I am on a mac.

My ideal is double click on the notebook name, the textfield turns editable, change and hit enter.

But let me check out this api

 

To rename a notebook in the left panel in Windows

 

Select the notebook, F2 to edit notebook name, then press enter

 

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That's cool. If we could right click on it then it say rename notebook would be a compromise. If you dont feel its important, thats totally cool.

 

 

 

Ugh, please no.  Do you really change notebook names that frequently?  I really don't want an accidental double click to believe that I want to rename a notebook.  I hate Finder/Windows Explorer for the same reason.  It's constantly assuming I want to rename everything.  

 

 

 

I am on a mac.

My ideal is double click on the notebook name, the textfield turns editable, change and hit enter.

But let me check out this api

 

To rename a notebook in the left panel in Windows

 

Select the notebook, F2 to edit notebook name, then press enter

 

 

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IMO, the issue with changing the Notebook name in the Left Side Panel is just one indicator of a much larger issue.

 

In EN Mac, Evernote removed most of the actions available by a right-click on the objects in the Left Side Panel after Ver 3,  Some were removed in Ver 5, and more in Ver 6, until now there is very little functionality in the Left Side Panel.

 

I find the Notebook view and the Tags view to be very user unfriendly, especially if you have a lot of Notebooks or Tags.

Evernote advertises supporting up to 250 Notebooks, and now, and incredible 100,000 tags.  The Tag view doesn't support more than 100 Tags, much less 100K Tags.

 

By using Tag hierarchies, it is possible to have many, many Tags, but collapse them down (at the top level) to a dozen or less.

While the Left Side Panel supports expandable Tag lists, it does NOT provide any tools to make it practical to use.  For example, the more useful tree lists provide a "collapse all" and a "expand all" feature.

 

Here is what I would like to see in the Left Side Panel:

(basically all actions available in the NB or Tag view, plus more)

  • All Items -- Collapse All, Expand All
  • Notebooks -- right-click on any NB to (some choices depend on current state of NB)
    • Get Properties (type of NB, number of note, local storage size, shared or joined, etc)
    • Set as Default NB
    • Share
    • Sharing Info
    • UnShare
    • Move to Stack
    • Remove from Stack
    • Rename
    • Export
    • Delete
    • Any other choices not listed above but in the NB view with a right-click
  • Tag List
    • Move under Parent Tag (provides Tag selection like with the Tag Filter)
    • Move to Top Level
    • Rename
    • Delete
    • Assign to Selected Notes
    • UnAssign from Selected Notes
    • Collapse/Expand All below this Tag
    • Any other choices not listed above but in the Tag view with right-click

This is NOT intended to be comprehensive, but to illustrate the type of functionality that would be very useful in the Left Side Panel.

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I couldnt find it, thought I did see some comment suggest that. Anyway

I guess we agree to disagree on the minutae of workflow and how speeding up things adds up.

 

The funny thing everything that'd suggest is not that big, but it does add up.

 

The funnier thing is that how you say u wouldnt do x y or z id never guess EN would have made a chat client/ presentation option for notes.

The principles youve mentioned go against what they done.

 

All of the things Im mention is in relation to its core features...

 

And to the poster of the comic, its funny, but true you save time.. its fine if thats not important...

 

 

Metrodon,
 
Who said it was the only issue I had. You? Thats your mistaken assumption. Again I need a bit more benefit of the doubt. Just like i sadly
had to say that "Me posting a thought doesn't mean I expect it to be high priority in the evernote ceo's task list. That would be unrealistic."
I wouldnt suggest creating a lighter app off of one suggestion.
 
 The title of the thread is power users.. a lot of apps consider that demo when building, if you dont have a need for that, ignore
or unsubscribe. Its fine to disagree.
 
Also It doesnt matter how often I rename it, I only ask for that because I know a lot of different other apps in a lot of different categories
have a feature like that...
 
It doesnt mean Im searching for perfection when I ask for the basics. We should be careful not to confuse the two.
Again do not be confused I I dont let it stop me, I just come on here to mention it even though people thinks that I let it stop me, I dont
 
 
Its just a UX Usability thing.
 
 

 

Metrodon,
 
I hear you. I'm sure you can understand that something doesnt sit right with me
Basically I am using the API to create a simpler version of evernote and not to add a cool feature like other apps does.
 
and Personally, I just wish I had the ability to rename a notebook on the left sidebar on the mac os x
instead of taking two or three clicks to do.
Small savings add up to big savings..
I will explore the api... see whats up
 
Thanks everyone
 

Evernote has a pretty decent API - anyone can go and write a lighter weight client if they have the time/inclination.

 
If it's important to you then it makes perfect sense.
 
I find a lot of the current discussion (not just here but in a lot of the semi technical media) about workflow quite interesting. I think people become obsessed with this idea of a perfect workflow that is going to make them better at what they do. I think you get better at what you do by doing it and by learning from other people that do it too. I want to use tools that help me, I know that none of them are going to be perfect but I use them to help me where they can. 
 
In this example, I wonder how many times it is necessary to rename a notebook? Unless it's a very regular occurrence I would guess that just this discussion probably ends up taking way more time than you would spend actually renaming the notebooks using the current Evernote method. Again, I'm not saying that Evernote is perfect, I'd quite like the side bar to be more editable and configurable, but I'm certainly not going to let a tiny disruption to the way I work distract me from the work I really need to do.
 
Hope that makes sense...

Show me where I said it was your only problem.

I wasn't in any way criticising or assuming a value judgement to your request/point. Instead I tried to highlight what I see as being an increasing obsession with the minutiae of workflow and the impact this has on actually doing stuff.

 

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For the last 10-15 posts I might quote the Bard, "Thought is free".  From the Tempest...

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I couldnt find it, thought I did see some comment suggest that. Anyway

I guess we agree to disagree on the minutae of workflow and how speeding up things adds up.

 

The funny thing everything that'd suggest is not that big, but it does add up.

 

The funnier thing is that how you say u wouldnt do x y or z id never guess EN would have made a chat client/ presentation option for notes.

The principles youve mentioned go against what they done.

 

All of the things Im mention is in relation to its core features...

 

And to the poster of the comic, its funny, but true you save time.. its fine if thats not important...

 

 

Metrodon,

 

Who said it was the only issue I had. You? Thats your mistaken assumption. Again I need a bit more benefit of the doubt. Just like i sadly

had to say that "Me posting a thought doesn't mean I expect it to be high priority in the evernote ceo's task list. That would be unrealistic."

I wouldnt suggest creating a lighter app off of one suggestion.

 

 The title of the thread is power users.. a lot of apps consider that demo when building, if you dont have a need for that, ignore

or unsubscribe. Its fine to disagree.

 

Also It doesnt matter how often I rename it, I only ask for that because I know a lot of different other apps in a lot of different categories

have a feature like that...

 

It doesnt mean Im searching for perfection when I ask for the basics. We should be careful not to confuse the two.

Again do not be confused I I dont let it stop me, I just come on here to mention it even though people thinks that I let it stop me, I dont

 

 

Its just a UX Usability thing.

 

 

 

Metrodon,

 

I hear you. I'm sure you can understand that something doesnt sit right with me

Basically I am using the API to create a simpler version of evernote and not to add a cool feature like other apps does.

 

and Personally, I just wish I had the ability to rename a notebook on the left sidebar on the mac os x

instead of taking two or three clicks to do.

Small savings add up to big savings..

I will explore the api... see whats up

 

Thanks everyone

 

Evernote has a pretty decent API - anyone can go and write a lighter weight client if they have the time/inclination.

 

If it's important to you then it makes perfect sense.

 

I find a lot of the current discussion (not just here but in a lot of the semi technical media) about workflow quite interesting. I think people become obsessed with this idea of a perfect workflow that is going to make them better at what they do. I think you get better at what you do by doing it and by learning from other people that do it too. I want to use tools that help me, I know that none of them are going to be perfect but I use them to help me where they can. 

 

In this example, I wonder how many times it is necessary to rename a notebook? Unless it's a very regular occurrence I would guess that just this discussion probably ends up taking way more time than you would spend actually renaming the notebooks using the current Evernote method. Again, I'm not saying that Evernote is perfect, I'd quite like the side bar to be more editable and configurable, but I'm certainly not going to let a tiny disruption to the way I work distract me from the work I really need to do.

 

Hope that makes sense...

Show me where I said it was your only problem.

I wasn't in any way criticising or assuming a value judgement to your request/point. Instead I tried to highlight what I see as being an increasing obsession with the minutiae of workflow and the impact this has on actually doing stuff.

 

 

 

Again I think you are misunderstanding me.

 

Just because Evernote think I should use Evernote for messaging or presenting doesn't mean that I should.

 

In my opinion, their presentation tool is very lightweight and not particularly useful and work chat is completely useless for me.

 

This reinforces exactly what I was saying. I use Keynote or Powerpoint for presentations, they are built for creating presentations and very powerful - tools designed for the task.

 

For IM I use Messages, perfect for Apple messages, text messages, google/jabber for work.

 

Using the right tool for the task is the quickest way for me to get my work done. That's the best workflow advice I can offer.

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Hey guys, would you please quit quoting the entire long, boring previous post?

The huge quote obscures your point and makes reading this thread a real chore.

You could just quote the last new post -- not all of the many previous posts.

 

In most of these cases, no one really cares about your debate, except for the two people involved.

So, please, be considerate of the rest of us.

 

Thanks.

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Howdy:

 

I don't think a discussion about "rename notebook" belongs in this thread.

Does someone have the authority to move it to an appropriate topic?

 

Thank you in advance,

 

~ Alan

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Hahaha No problem, JMichael. That was absolutely hilarious. I wont quote.

 

Metrodon: Im not misunderstanding because I agree 1000% your last post.

In fact thats why i wrote earlier " The funnier thing is that how you say u wouldnt do x y or z id never guess EN would have made a chat client/ presentation option for notes.

The principles youve mentioned [ about keeping it simple ] go against what they done."

 

JMichael thank you for unintentionally helping me articulate what was were removed in version 3. You are right it is indicative of a larger problem, but

I was getting flak just for reporting the symptom so I didnt want to get too deep lol. JM That list you wrote was very comprehensive.

 

A lot of you probably dont see why I would write this much about one thing but if it existed in a previous version, a valid question is why in the world would you take it out? lol

 

Thats why i say it doesnt matter how much times i need to rename something, usually software releases do not take a cool feature out, you know?

 

Also JM you may remember I tried looking for the OS.X version 3 and would do anything to have it back. I knew I should have saved the DMG.

...

Maybe it should be removed to rename notebook? I disagree yes we are talking a lot but we are also talking about the discontent I have from En not having

features that address the power user. Trust me this is so not about renaming a notebook lol. Its just an example, a microcosm...

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there are lots of things that cause friction for me:

1. the lack of sort options,

2. the lack of clarity about what is private/shared/joined,

3. the lack of data available at a glance (without the inspector),

4. the clumsy tag window,

5. the lack of note and/or notebook level encryption,

6. the lack of selective sync on the desktop versions, etc.

the developers have taken some of it out, and other stuff they never have put in. i am sure they have their reasons. honestly, for me, there is only one thing on that list which seriously impacts me. if the rest were taken care of, i would be icing on the cake.

as suggested before, if you step back from it a little and evaluate the app as a whole instead of focusing on the insignificant issues, you might find it's more than adequate for most users.

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"as suggested before, if you step back from it a little and evaluate the app as a whole instead of focusing on the insignificant issues, you might find it's more than adequate for most "

 

Does that apply to every person who makes a suggestion to improve for Evernote to or just my suggestion..

Are they making a case that its not adequate by suggesting it.

I'm not sure what sets my suggestion apart that makes you feel so but, Grumpy that's what we have product feedback forums for. 

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Why not submit a ticket? You have a better chance of (some of) it getting picked up by the dev team.

 

IMO, the issue with changing the Notebook name in the Left Side Panel is just one indicator of a much larger issue.

 

In EN Mac, Evernote removed most of the actions available by a right-click on the objects in the Left Side Panel after Ver 3,  Some were removed in Ver 5, and more in Ver 6, until now there is very little functionality in the Left Side Panel.

 

I find the Notebook view and the Tags view to be very user unfriendly, especially if you have a lot of Notebooks or Tags.

Evernote advertises supporting up to 250 Notebooks, and now, and incredible 100,000 tags.  The Tag view doesn't support more than 100 Tags, much less 100K Tags.

 

By using Tag hierarchies, it is possible to have many, many Tags, but collapse them down (at the top level) to a dozen or less.

While the Left Side Panel supports expandable Tag lists, it does NOT provide any tools to make it practical to use.  For example, the more useful tree lists provide a "collapse all" and a "expand all" feature.

 

Here is what I would like to see in the Left Side Panel:

(basically all actions available in the NB or Tag view, plus more)

  • All Items -- Collapse All, Expand All
  • Notebooks -- right-click on any NB to (some choices depend on current state of NB)
    • Get Properties (type of NB, number of note, local storage size, shared or joined, etc)
    • Set as Default NB
    • Share
    • Sharing Info
    • UnShare
    • Move to Stack
    • Remove from Stack
    • Rename
    • Export
    • Delete
    • Any other choices not listed above but in the NB view with a right-click
  • Tag List
    • Move under Parent Tag (provides Tag selection like with the Tag Filter)
    • Move to Top Level
    • Rename
    • Delete
    • Assign to Selected Notes
    • UnAssign from Selected Notes
    • Collapse/Expand All below this Tag
    • Any other choices not listed above but in the Tag view with right-click

This is NOT intended to be comprehensive, but to illustrate the type of functionality that would be very useful in the Left Side Panel.

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@alwaysambitious,

Why not start a separate thread in the form of a feature request for whatever it is you think is lacking, no matter how big or small? I have done so on occasion.

I would venture to say that not being able to rename a notebook on the Mac client with a double click it's not the most appropriate topic to kick around on a thread that is dedicated to issues that "power users" are facing, and the search for alternative services. I doubt that someone is going to jump ship because they cannot rename a notebook on Mac more easily.

Your feature request/tweak is more than valid… But I think it has long since run its course on this thread - which, again, is not the most appropriate thread on this forum for that particular one.

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"as suggested before, if you step back from it a little and evaluate the app as a whole instead of focusing on the insignificant issues, you might find it's more than adequate for most "

 

Does that apply to every person who makes a suggestion to improve for Evernote to or just my suggestion..

Are they making a case that its not adequate by suggesting it.

I'm not sure what sets my suggestion apart that makes you feel so but, Grumpy that's what we have product feedback forums for. 

i think the advice applies to all of us, especially, in a thread geared toward considering options to evernote because it has not met the needs of users here, for one reason or another. perhaps i misunderstood the thrust of your comments. in the context of this thread, it sounds like you want to leave evernote for another service because of notebook renami g, or the presence of chat in the client. to me, that seems like throwing the baby out with the bath water, so to speak.

if you are making a suggestion for improvement, as many of us have over the years, that is great, but in the context of this thread, it is a little confusing. you might have better luck catching the attention of evernote, and having a productive discussion if you put it in a different thread.

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Hi Pete, sorry if you misunderstood my intenions. I wasn't trying to imply that you represent EN or that you think you do.

I just wanted to make it clear for the sake of anyone who reads this Thread, especially new Forum Members, that they are free to suggest whatever they would like to see Evernote do or add. And your post sounded a bit like you were trying to shut down the conversation using words like, "...it's pointless because..."

Regardless of Evernote's change in direction more for the business market, it's still a great for individual users like us. As such, I don't think we should be discouraging folks from posting Feature Requests, suggestions or any other thoughts they have about anything to do with Evernote

Also, I'm not entirely sure if submitting Feature Requests directly to EN through Support Ticket, is anymore useful than posting them here on the Forum. Either way, they get them and once it's in their hands, we, as users, have done all we can. But at least on the Forum, if it's a widely desired feature and large numbers of users chime in to support it, then we can present a united front to EN so they can't later says their wasn't enough users unterest to impliment a much wanted Fearure.

But I wasn't trying to insinuate anything about you, Pete. You're opinions, insights and thoughts are every bit as valif as everyone elses!

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Hello Wordsgood, no offense taken. I never take anything you write the bad way because I know you are not like that. I might not always agree with you, and might sound upset when I write, but I am not upset with you ;)

I do think there is a lot of discussion on this forum that does not get us anywhere, particularly from those who moan. Alwayzambitious was not moaning, just asking about a feature, but, as you can see from some of the answers above, he has been redirected elsewhere because his subject was out of place in this thread.

Having said that, I am not a moderator so at the end of the day people can write here what they want - it's a free forum. That also goes for me though, as long as I don't offend people, which I am careful about.

 

Hi Pete, sorry if you misunderstood my intenions. I wasn't trying to imply that you represent EN or that you think you do.

I just wanted to make it clear for the sake of anyone who reads this Thread, especially new Forum Members, that they are free to suggest whatever they would like to see Evernote do or add. And your post sounded a bit like you were trying to shut down the conversation using words like, "...it's pointless because..."

Regardless of Evernote's change in direction more for the business market, it's still a great for individual users like us. As such, I don't think we should be discouraging folks from posting Feature Requests, suggestions or any other thoughts they have about anything to do with Evernote

Also, I'm not entirely sure if submitting Feature Requests directly to EN through Support Ticket, is anymore useful than posting them here on the Forum. Either way, they get them and once it's in their hands, we, as users, have done all we can. But at least on the Forum, if it's a widely desired feature and large numbers of users chime in to support it, then we can present a united front to EN so they can't later says their wasn't enough users unterest to impliment a much wanted Fearure.

But I wasn't trying to insinuate anything about you, Pete. You're opinions, insights and thoughts are every bit as valif as everyone elses!
 

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Hey Gang,

 

Again renaming a notebook is not a power user feature, I respect that 1000%.

And again it's not the only reason why I was thinking about building a lighter version.

Some else started this thread with more good reasons.. my lil example was just a bad scapegoat that got more attention than it was

worth. Agree there also.

 

More relevant post that I should have said was "

Hey EN Power users, since you guys are already thinking of alternatives ( because of more than the lack of renaming notebooks ;-) )

Im thinking of trying to build a version of "offline" Evernote to practice AngularJS programming.

I was hoping to see what kind features, power users needed from evernote to see if its direction that

i was going to go with my evernote light idea...

 

So far JMicheal provided features that I would add and someone else mentioned secure notebooks, so ill keep those in mind.

"

Thanks,

 

Hows this?

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You need to do some more reading in the forums... there is a boatload of very specific information you might find valuable (besides @JMichael's mention of secure notebooks, as you said). You might want to start from the beginning of this very thread and make some notes (or clip some selections to Evernote)... because I think you've skipped over quite a bit. There's a lot for quiet contemplation in this very thread. 

 

Once you've practiced your Angular JS Programming and have something to show off, I'd love to give it a spin. BTW, there are some other developers who have created lighter versions of Evernote and posted here in the forums. You'll need to do a little digging, though. I honestly think it's all been said here on the forums already. Even easier renaming of notebooks on Mac...

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Good stuff, Frank I will do that. And on a seperate note Ill share what I came up with regarding the scrum/evernote stuff soon.

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Hey all. As you have probably gathered, I value my privacy and security. My criticisms of Evernote and its competitors tend to focus on these two issues. I just saw the unfortunate news about Slack's hacking.

http://thenextdigit.com/19316/500000-users-personal-information-leaked-slack-hack/

 

I haven't used Slack, but it is apparently an Evernote competitor in the work chat space. Although I think Evernote ought to do more with encryption, they have learned a lot of security lessons over the years, and they have implemented several security features. I recommend anyone considering alternatives pay close attention to this stuff. Personally, I think Evernote is doing a great job overall, and it would be too bad if someone abandoned it for a less secure service.

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Hey all. As you have probably gathered, I value my privacy and security. My criticisms of Evernote and its competitors tend to focus on these two issues. I just saw the unfortunate news about Slack's hacking.

http://thenextdigit.com/19316/500000-users-personal-information-leaked-slack-hack/

 

I haven't used Slack, but it is apparently an Evernote competitor in the work chat space. Although I think Evernote ought to do more with encryption, they have learned a lot of security lessons over the years, and they have implemented several security features. I recommend anyone considering alternatives pay close attention to this stuff. Personally, I think Evernote is doing a great job overall, and it would be too bad if someone abandoned it for a less secure service.

 

Working link:

 

Slack confirmed up to 500,000 users personal info has been leaked by hackers

http://thenextdigit.com/19403/slack-confirmed-500000-users-personal-info-leaked-hackers/

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Dropbox's forward march has got to pique your interest. They're clearly moving into the note-taking niche and positioning themselves for a piece of the pie:

http://m.tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/dropbox-testing-project-composer-a-collaborative-note-taking-app-will-compete-with-google-docs-and-evernote-261824.html

Let's see whether they throw web clipping and OCR search capabilities in the mix. They may just be many peoples' answer to a decent note-taking file repository like Evernote, which employs nested folders (if that's what floats one's boat).

Also, very impressive, is their recent launching of their Carousel app, which is their gallery app for your photos and videos in Dropbox. An area which Evernote has not decided to develop.

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It's online & it's collaborative. And what is privacy like?

 

Dropbox's forward march has got to pique your interest. They're clearly moving into the note-taking niche and positioning themselves for a piece of the pie:

http://m.tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/dropbox-testing-project-composer-a-collaborative-note-taking-app-will-compete-with-google-docs-and-evernote-261824.html

Let's see whether they throw web clipping and OCR search capabilities in the mix. They may just be many peoples' answer to a decent note-taking file repository like Evernote, which employs nested folders (if that's what floats one's boat).

Also, very impressive, is their recent launching of their Carousel app, which is their gallery app for your photos and videos in Dropbox. An area which Evernote has not decided to develop.

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It's online & it's collaborative. And what is privacy like?

 

I think it says in the article that no one has access to even a beta at this stage. It was pulled. So we'll have to wait and see. As far as privacy goes, I'm guessing Dropbox is a name that most can trust, so I would never have thought privacy to be an issue. 

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It's online & it's collaborative. And what is privacy like?

 

I think it says in the article that no one has access to even a beta at this stage. It was pulled. So we'll have to wait and see. As far as privacy goes, I'm guessing Dropbox is a name that most can trust, so I would never have thought privacy to be an issue.

I think there are many reasons to question its security / privacy record.

http://techcrunch.com/2014/10/11/edward-snowden-new-yorker-festival/

http://www.zdnet.com/article/dropbox-drops-the-security-notification-ball-again/

http://www.techrepublic.com/blog/it-security/dropbox-convenient-absolutely-but-is-it-secure/

There's more to be said. Just Google around. I use Dropbox. I like it a lot. But, I avoid putting anything sensitive into it.

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I use Dropbox. I like it a lot. But, I avoid putting anything sensitive into it.

 

 

Good workaround. Problem solved. 

 

It would be nice to discuss the possibilities a product like Dropbox may offer in the near future without having a muti-page debate on privacy issues every time the word is mentioned. We all get it. Privacy and security are important. It's a prerequisite. As long as you're using a cloud service (you know... collaboration, syncing to multiple devices effortlessly, etc...) nothing is bulletproof. 

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I think it is worth discussing privacy issues, especially when there is an assumption that your data is secure or private in Dropbox. I was responding specifically to the claim that Dropbox is a name most can trust. I don't think so. And, in the context of this Evernote forum, I'd question whether it is more secure or better at ptotecting your privacy than Evernote.

Dropbox has done an excellent job of making its service convenient,though, and there are some interesting apps out there that manage to use it securely. VoodooPad encrypts its databases and syncs via Dropbox. Development on the app seems sporadic and it is only for OSX / iOS. DEVONthink can also sync through Dropbox with an encrypted database, but it is limited to OSX (for this function). Basically, it is possible to use Dropbox securely, but it is rare.

My question is: if an individual developer (Gus with VP) and a relatively small operation (DT) can master encrypted syncing via the cloud, why can't Evernote. Or, to put it another way, why won't Evernote?

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By the way, if we're talking about cloud data lockers, Amazon is now down to 60 dollars for unlimited data. Dropbox and Google Drive are not even close to matching it. And, for folks who treat Evernote like a locker, Amazon is going to look appealing. Additional security and privacy features would help Evernote distinguish itself from the others as a service people can rely upon for everything.

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Over time, I have become less conscious of walking around uncovered in my apartment for the briefest of periods, sometimes totally unaware (especially in the evening) that others from surrounding buildings might in fact see me in my birthday suit. Although it doesn't affect me directly, you never know what kind of people are watching and with what intent. You've got me thinking...

Hahaha. So you're that guy living across the street from me! Well, nudity doesn't bother me so much. I'm a swimmer, so I guess there isn't much left for anyone's imagination, and I regularly go to public baths. If someone wanted photos of me they could get them easily enough :)

It's my students' personal records, my university's private financial and administrative data, work I've done for other corporations / entities, correspondence (digitized and emailed), my research journal, my financial records, my health records, and any number of other things that I am legally obligated not to share with the world (in some cases with NDAs, for example) or things I wouldn't particularly like to share. I've tried separating the sensitive stuff out, but that leaves only a handful of things that I would feel comfortable having someone see. Even scraps of data can be put to nefarious uses these days, and once you've been compromised, the data is out there forever.

Fortunately, some companies have stepped up and strengthened their products in recent years, and cloud services like SpiderOak have pioneered new levels of security for average folks at affordable prices. There are great alternatives to Dropbox out there that are secure and convenient.

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Dropbox's forward march has got to pique your interest. They're clearly moving into the note-taking niche and positioning themselves for a piece of the pie:

http://m.tech.firstpost.com/news-analysis/dropbox-testing-project-composer-a-collaborative-note-taking-app-will-compete-with-google-docs-and-evernote-261824.html

Let's see whether they throw web clipping and OCR search capabilities in the mix. They may just be many peoples' answer to a decent note-taking file repository like Evernote, which employs nested folders (if that's what floats one's boat).

Also, very impressive, is their recent launching of their Carousel app, which is their gallery app for your photos and videos in Dropbox. An area which Evernote has not decided to develop.

 

The early reports look very interesting, and I hope DropBox does enter the PIM market.  IMO, the more competition, the better.

 

But it is way too early to start worrying about security/privacy since it is not even an announced product yet.

 

 

 

While it’s uncertain if or when Dropbox plans to officially release Composer, it’s clear that the file-sharing company is hoping to expand beyond its roots and into areas once dominated by Microsoft Office. That market is now under assault by Google, Box, Apple, and now, probably, Dropbox.
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Hi folks, 

 

I stopped using EN exclusively in February of 2014.  This was due to the fact that EN would lose part of my documents every time it would sync.  I was using EN as my digital file cabinet AND my workspace, and I simply couldn't afford to lose chunks of my work every day.  I signed up for MS OneNote and have been using that as my workspace since.  I'm happy with OneNote as my workspace, and I have kept EN as an archiving tool.  This worked out well because it's so easy to archive to EN, and I was using Postach.io to publish one of my notebooks as a blog.  

 

Since I'm not longer using Postach.io, I am evaluating whether I need to keep EN.  I have batch migrated my EN notes to ON and am still reviewing the results.  Overall, the process was 'ok' but could be improved by tweaking some things in EN prior to export.  I also need to compare the search, and make sure that all of the multimedia clips are being imported.  

 

Assuming the migration works out fine, I think OneNote will be my new digital file cabinet.  I will miss EN's superior web clipping, but probably not enough to keep EN.  

 

I originally thought that running both systems would work for me, but I like simplicity.  I just don't want to deal with two separate apps that each do 90% of what I need.  I'll pick one, drop the other, and make-do as needed.  I wish it could have been Evernote because I'm fond of it, but OneNote is the one doing the heavy lifting.  

 

At this point, I don't see any reason to renew my subscription to EN, aside from the fact that I've had it and loved it for a long time.  Sometimes that's enough for me to keep something though ;)

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@JMichael: you say But it is way too early to start worrying about security/privacy since it is not even an announced product yet.

It is exactly at an early stage that security/privacy need to be put up on the radar screen, and not as an after-thought when the product is already at an advanced stage. If Dropbox wants to enter the PIM market, one way they could distinguish themselves from the competition, rather than being perceived as a "me too" app, is to develop a top notch security/privacy app.

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@JMichael: you say But it is way too early to start worrying about security/privacy since it is not even an announced product yet.

It is exactly at an early stage that security/privacy need to be put up on the radar screen, and not as an after-thought when the product is already at an advanced stage. If Dropbox wants to enter the PIM market, one way they could distinguish themselves from the competition, rather than being perceived as a "me too" app, is to develop a top notch security/privacy app.

 

And, Dropbox already has a long history of privacy / security issues. Those don't magically disappear with a new product. From my perspective, there is nothing "early" about this. Security ought to be baked in from the beginning. 

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@DutchPete and @GM:

 

I think you guys misunderstand me.  Of course security/privacy needs to be designed in from the beginning.

My point is that we don't have any reliable information yet to have a meaningful review/discussion of the unannounced (any maybe never will be) DropBox Compose (or whatever it might be named) future app.

 

If you want to try to influence DropBox, then you might be better of posting in their forum.

 

But hey, if you guys want to debate a piece of vaporware, by all means please carry on.  I've got better things to do.   ;)

When/IF DropBox makes an announcement and provides more details about "Compose" security/privacy, then I'll be interested.

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I doubt this Dropbox project is for "power users" of Evernote, and I also doubt it will be ready for primetime anytime soon, but if you try to access the service, it says: "Project Composer would like access to the files and folders in your Dropbox," so I think we can infer from this that it has all of the security and privacy issues inherent in Dropbox, especially when it is apparently being developed and run by the same folks. 

 

I suppose DB is roughly equivalent to many other major services out there, and perhaps slightly better than Microsoft's offerings (OneDrive isn't even encrypted, as far as I know, for regular users), but it is still woefully inadequate for my needs (see above), and I suspect that many users would reach the same conclusion for themselves if they imagine two or three people (representing hackers, company employees, and hackers) standing and looking over their shoulders in the coffee shop while they use the service. That's what you are essentially doing until you get zero-knowledge encryption.

 

Anyhow, speculating from screenshots of DB, I'd say the product is probably not a serious competitor for folks in this thread. It may, however, be a serious alternative for non-power users who are already using DB.

 

 

 

Hi folks, 

 

I stopped using EN exclusively in February of 2014.  This was due to the fact that EN would lose part of my documents every time it would sync.  I was using EN as my digital file cabinet AND my workspace, and I simply couldn't afford to lose chunks of my work every day.  I signed up for MS OneNote and have been using that as my workspace since.  I'm happy with OneNote as my workspace, and I have kept EN as an archiving tool.  This worked out well because it's so easy to archive to EN, and I was using Postach.io to publish one of my notebooks as a blog.  

 

Since I'm not longer using Postach.io, I am evaluating whether I need to keep EN.  I have batch migrated my EN notes to ON and am still reviewing the results.  Overall, the process was 'ok' but could be improved by tweaking some things in EN prior to export.  I also need to compare the search, and make sure that all of the multimedia clips are being imported.  

 

Assuming the migration works out fine, I think OneNote will be my new digital file cabinet.  I will miss EN's superior web clipping, but probably not enough to keep EN.  

 

I originally thought that running both systems would work for me, but I like simplicity.  I just don't want to deal with two separate apps that each do 90% of what I need.  I'll pick one, drop the other, and make-do as needed.  I wish it could have been Evernote because I'm fond of it, but OneNote is the one doing the heavy lifting.  

 

At this point, I don't see any reason to renew my subscription to EN, aside from the fact that I've had it and loved it for a long time.  Sometimes that's enough for me to keep something though ;)

 

Thanks for this report! Have you had any sync issues at all with ON? Also, I think you have posted before about your sync problems with Evernote, but could you put a link to those posts? This would help other users and Evernote developers to better understand what is happening.

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@JMichael: I don't even use Dropbox & don't intend to do so. Frankdg suggested looking @ their project so I did, as you did. You decided to comment, so you can expect to have reactions to your comment. I don't intend to waste my energy on something I don't even want, but i do react on this forum to comments I don't agree with or have a view about, without necessarily going into intricate details. If you don't want to get reactions then don't comment, then logically you should not in the 1st place. And if we misunderstood you, it's your problem if you cannot express yourself clearly.

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....

 

Thanks for this report! Have you had any sync issues at all with ON? Also, I think you have posted before about your sync problems with Evernote, but could you put a link to those posts? This would help other users and Evernote developers to better understand what is happening.

 

Hi there, 

 

I think the only time I've mentioned the sync problem with EN is here - https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/73373-i-see-in-the-news-today-nov-4-2014-evernote-premium-price-may-change/page-4#entry351329

 

I could recover my lost work in the history of the note if I originally composed in the web version.  If I composed in the desktop version, the losses were not recoverable.  Some of the broken notes would end up in conflicting changes, but the lost data wasn't there.   The troubleshooting process was primarily a matter of working on the web version vs desktop, reinstalling desktop version, and sending logs and app/browser versions over to EN support.  They did what they could but it wasn't solved.  It may work fine now, but I don't compose in EN anymore, so I don't know.  

 

I had one sync problem with ON from one device.  I forget the details but I was able to solve it by following the steps in a KB article.  I didn't need to get support involved.

 

One advantage EN has over ON in my use case is that there are more integration options with IFTTT and Zapier.  Making backups of my blog posts, youtube watch later videos, etc., just seems to work better with EN.  

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@JMichael:

 And if we misunderstood you, it's your problem if you cannot express yourself clearly.

 

@DutchPete:  Communication is a two-way process.  There is plenty of room on both sides to generate a misunderstanding, including language differences and even the English language itself.  I was not trying to place blame on anyone, just on the process.  It is a shame that you have chosen to make it personal and place blame, which in and of itself is an obstacle to good communication.

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@JMichael: I don't see what the language has to do with it. Your reaction (if you guys want to debate a piece of vaporware, by all means please carry on.  I've got better things to do) was uncalled for, you sometimes seem to go off your rocker & answer in an unpleasant, if not aggressive way. And what you call a misunderstanding is not due to the use of English language. I may be Dutch, but my command of the English language is on a par with any higher educated person whose mother tongue is English - not sure if that includes you.

Both GM and I had the same appreciation of your initial comment about security/privacy, and if you think GM has a lesser command of the English language than you it is obvious you have another problem than just expressng yourself clearly. So please stay with your feet on the ground and try to have a measured discussion.

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@DutchPete:  Regardless of your command of the language, you continue to infer incorrect meaning that is not in my post.  You are in no position to be telling anyone to "So please stay with your feet on the ground and try to have a measured discussion."

 

You also continue to make personal attacks against me, which is in violation of forum rules.

 

Now, can we get back to the topic of this thread?

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@JMichael: both GM & I independently understood the same from your post, so even if my so-called inferred meaning is supposedly incorrect, you expressed yourself clumsily & got the wrong message across, not just to me (English not being my mother tongue & all that) but also to GM. Unfortunately for you that is your problem, not mine.

And as for personal attacks: I have no interest in making personal attacks against you or anyone else. I only reacted to a condescending remark you made, which I take issue with. But if you don't want to stay with your feet on the ground, having lifted off at least try to get off your high horse and treat your forum colleagues with a bit more decorum. That way we would not need to go through all this & can stay with the topic.

By the way, It is not the 1st time you disregard common rules of courtesy in a post. Since I was brought up with a different set of values, I will react whenever you lack respect towards me, whether you like it or not. That's me.

And to prove that I am not beyond reproach: I have also made 1 or 2 unpleasant posts, but did 1 of 2 things. Either I apologised to the person or I withdrew my post (= deleted it). Common courtesy.

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@DutchPete:  I don't see how I posted anything that shows disrespect to you.  I made no personal comments about you, yet it is you who first make a personal negative comment about me.  So, if fact, it appears to me that it is you who has shown disrespect.  All of my comments were about the subject matter, not about any person.  And, you continue, even with your last post, to make statements about me that are not factual.  It is all based on your interpretation of my posts.

 

You still don't seem to get my original point, which was that since DropBox has NOT made any announcements about a new product, it is premature, IMO, to get into a lengthy debate about security.  I want high security in any product I use, including Evernote.  And, in fact, I don't think Evernote security is adequate.

 

You seem to want to argue and debate, even though you said you were not even interested in the product.  Strange behavior from my perspective.

I see no point any further discussion with you.  But if you do make another post attacking me, I will report it.  I suggest that you get back on topic.  I'm sure everyone else is tired of these posts which are distracting from the thread topic.

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Nine times out of ten, an argument ends with each of the contestants more firmly convinced than ever that he is absolutely right. You can’t win an argument. You can’t because if you lose it, you lose it; and if you win it, you lose it. Why? Well, suppose you triumph over the other man and shoot his argument full of holes and prove that he is non compos mentis. Then what? You will feel fine. But what about him? You have made him feel inferior. You have hurt his pride. He will resent your triumph. And - "A man convinced against his will is of the same opinion still."  - Dale Carnegie


 


I, myself, have done well to remember the above sage wisdom on (many an) occasion.


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