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Howdy, EN Power Users:

 

 

I have read a consistently growing number of threads expressing that EN is increasing in calousness towards its subscriber base... causing some of it core supporters and power users to call it "enough."

 

 

From the time you've taken to research, which applications are you finding to be the most VIABLE replacements or alternatives to EN for Power Users?    (Links would be appreciated.)

 

 

 

Most of us have witnessed poorly managed companies drive an exceptional product or service into the ground... and in this case it would directly affect EN users. I use EN to run my business (Win + Android)... so quality, stability and user-friendliness are critical... would prefer to avoid a Titanic mishap well before entering the ice field.

 

 

 

Thank you in advance for a prompt and detailed response.

 

Alan

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I'd say that OneNote is a strong candidate.  I've noticed a number of long-time Evernote users have also been using OneNote and/or are in the process of switching to it.  It's on my testing to-do list.   ;)

 

It's free, so you could download it and give it a try.  Now available on Win, Mac, iOS, and of course all the MS platforms.

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Howdy, GrumpyMonkey and JMichael.

 

Appreciate your comments.

 

I have already encountered (2) serious issues with EN... and found EN tech support to be numbingly unsatisfactory at best. LOL!

 

 

I have Win Office 2013... so access is availabe to OneNote. I guess it's time to take a serious look and take it for a ride.  :)

  • Is ONENOTE the only serious Win contender at currently?

 

 

Any other thoughts?

 

Thank you in advance for a prompt and detailed response.

 

Alan

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Alan,

 

Inertia is a heckova thing, that and one can die of an unsatisfied old age constantly seeking the holy grail of anything.  I agree with GM that if the product is meeting your needs at the moment, no reason to be too nervous.  Another story if features important to you are disappearing or if quality control gets any worse and data corruption or loss occurs.  But in our instant gratification society nothing, nothing stops one from dipping a toe or diving into the alternative pool.  There are enough comparative reviews of ON and EN on the net you can distill a sense of the strengths of each (eg .http://lifehacker.com/lifehacker-faceoff-onenote-vs-evernote-1550697885).  If you do dip your toe, it would be nice to hear what you find.

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I agree with csihilling. 

 

Also, in my opinion, ON is really the only serious contender on Windows, unless you are willing to go out and manage stuff using a relational database like Filemaker or Access, or putting together a workflow like I described for the Mac using Spotlight.

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Not a lot of choices unfortunately that are as cross-platform as Evernote. Springpad shut down. Probably the Evernote forum is not the best place to find alternatives either. :) I would suggest some other software or productivity forums.

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Inertia is a heckova thing, that and one can die of an unsatisfied old age constantly seeking the holy grail of anything.  I agree with GM that if the product is meeting your needs at the moment, no reason to be too nervous. Another story if features important to you are disappearing or if quality control gets any worse and data corruption or loss occurs.  But in our instant gratification society nothing, nothing stops one from dipping a toe or diving into the alternative pool.  There are enough comparative reviews of ON and EN on the net you can distill a sense of the strengths of each (eg .http://lifehacker.com/lifehacker-faceoff-onenote-vs-evernote-1550697885).  If you do dip your toe, it would be nice to hear what you find.

 

Howdy csihilling:

 

Appreciate reference to the excellent article:

http://lifehacker.com/lifehacker-faceoff-onenote-vs-evernote-1550697885

 

 

Will be happy to get back with an findings.  :)

 

Alan

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I never used Evernote on my mobile due to speed issues. 

So I use Google Keep on my smart phone for reminders, appointments, and tasks.

I also use my 15 year old copy of GoldMine (upgrade is too expensive).

I am still working on understanding OneNote.

Evernote is my repository for stuff that happened in the past.

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Evernote is my repository for stuff that happened in the past.

As opposed to stuff that happened in the future? :)

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Evernote is my repository for stuff that happened in the past.

As opposed to stuff that happened in the future? :)

 

 

Could be.  Have you seen the Fringe TV Series?  They have "Observers" who can see throughout all time, with it's many possible variations. ;)   I've been watching it for the first time on Netflix.  Fantastic show.

 

Sorry for the off-topic post.   :ph34r:

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Evernote is my repository for stuff that happened in the past.

As opposed to stuff that happened in the future? :)

 

Could be.  Have you seen the Fringe TV Series?  They have "Observers" who can see throughout all time, with it's many possible variations. ;)   I've been watching it for the first time on Netflix.  Fantastic show.

 

Sorry for the off-topic post.   :ph34r:

I think you might be right! Didn't JB mention somewhere that he has no hair or eyebrows? LOL. Just playing. Evernote is useful for making notes to your future self, so even though my comment was tongue in cheek, it is kind of true.

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I never used Evernote on my mobile due to speed issues. 

Recent IOS versions work quite quickly, just an FYI.

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I never used Evernote on my mobile due to speed issues. 

Recent IOS versions work quite quickly, just an FYI.

 

 

Evernote works fine (speed-wise) for me on both my iPhone 5 and iPad Mini.  I have over 10K Notes, but I think JB has many more.

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I never used Evernote on my mobile due to speed issues. 

Recent IOS versions work quite quickly, just an FYI.

 

 

Evernote works fine (speed-wise) for me on both my iPhone 5 and iPad Mini.  I have over 10K Notes, but I think JB has many more.

 

 

I had the same speed issues in the past as JB, but recent versions perform very well.  The notebooks that are selected for off line viewing have 15K notes in them and I don't see any lags.

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I'm moving to Maine tomorrow after the closing - whew!

So I bought a new smart phone - LG G3 - and it makes a world of difference regarding Evernote. Much faster.

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I'd say that OneNote is a strong candidate.  I've noticed a number of long-time Evernote users have also been using OneNote and/or are in the process of switching to it.  It's on my testing to-do list.   ;)

 

I'm moving that way myself. The recent yanking of public notebooks and the absolutely stultifying inertia in fixing bugs and improving Evernote's very basic editor are doing it for me. I don't use public notebooks myself, but the fact they think it's sensible to pull a feature without telling anyone is extremely worrying. Next week they could remove a feature I do rely on and I just can't work like that.

 

I looked at OneNote's Android client yesterday and it's got excelletn pen support (with pressure sensitivity) for my Galaxy Note 3. Last time I looked a year or so ago the Android client was pretty poor.

 

I did a few tests to check syncing between Android, web and Windows and it all works nicely. It's a big jump but if I can get my notes moved across I'll be abandoning Evernote.

 

It's a shame as I've been using Evernote since 2007, (mostly) patiently waiting for some serious improvements to the editor. The EN Android client has come on leaps and bounds too, but it's too little too late unfortunately.

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OneNote for Mac and iOS Users

 

I just ran across this MacWorld article which you might find useful:

Microsoft OneNote embraces Mac and iOS users with a raft of new features, Jul 30, 2014

 

Combined with the new DropBox Pro (1TB for $10/mo), this might be a better solution than Evernote for some users.

The great thing about DropBox for Mac users is that you can use Spotlight to search the DropBox folders/files for both file attributes and content.

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I never used Evernote on my mobile due to speed issues. 

So I use Google Keep on my smart phone for reminders, appointments, and tasks.

I also use my 15 year old copy of GoldMine (upgrade is too expensive).

I am still working on understanding OneNote.

Evernote is my repository for stuff that happened in the past.

 

Howdy, jbenson2:

 

I had to laugh at your discription. Isn't this the very definition of a "hodgepodge" !

 

Personally, I wish Ecco were still around and cross-platform developed for 2014! Ecco would be the awesome-est PIM on the planet!

 

Appreciate.  :)

 

Alan

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OneNote for Mac and iOS Users

 

I just ran across this MacWorld article which you might find useful:

Microsoft OneNote embraces Mac and iOS users with a raft of new features, Jul 30, 2014

 

Combined with the new DropBox Pro (1TB for $10/mo), this might be a better solution than Evernote for some users.

The great thing about DropBox for Mac users is that you can use Spotlight to search the DropBox folders/files for both file attributes and content.

 

 

Some OneNote UPDATES for Windows and Android users...

 

 

OneNote for Windows

 

 

Alan

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Personally, I wish Ecco were still around and cross-platform developed for 2014! Ecco would be the awesome-est PIM on the planet!

 

Wow.  Ecco, now there's a blast from the past.  Truly a notes only app if ever there was one.  Brings a tear...

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Personally, I wish Ecco were still around and cross-platform developed for 2014! Ecco would be the awesome-est PIM on the planet!

 

Wow.  Ecco, now there's a blast from the past.  Truly a notes only app if ever there was one.  Brings a tear...

 

 

Shucks, Cal. Now you got me cry'n!  LOL!   :)

Alan

 

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Great article Alan.  Thanks for sharing.

 

From my perspective, the main benefit of Evernote has long been that it's available on almost all platforms.

 

Looks like Microsoft is going after cross-platform and improved sync as major thrusts:

 

"Cross-platform is an essential part of our strategy," Rasmussen [Microsoft] said. "We're trying to make sure anyone -- companies, individuals, educational institutions -- can use OneNote across different devices."

Behind the scenes, the OneNote team is working on updating its core storage and sync model. As a recent OneNote Microsoft job posting noted, "our core Storage & Sync model is still based on the original designs from the first version of OneNote. Notes were originally a collection of directories and files on the local drive. Notes are now a collection of directories and files in the cloud with a sync engine and caching placed in-between."[

This design is "limiting from both the robustness and innovation points of view," the post continues. The team is looking for experts to help "build a modern foundation for all of OneNote's data" that will enable user sharing and collaboration at a finer level. "We need to support cross platform devices that have limited local storage and yet still provide access to all of your notes," the post added.

Evernote sync used to be rock solid, but for the last few months that have been many reports of sync issues. I have experienced two sync issues (Mac and iOS).

If MS gets it right, it could mean real trouble for Evernote.

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I'm working on an alternative system. If you'd like to be a beta tester visit http://lotsofjots.com. Click on the Create an account link and request an invitation code.

 

Some of the things that make it unique from Evernote are: 1) Nested pages, 2) Reuse content on multiple pages, 3) Integrated drawing, 4) Integrated date-based journaling, 5) Split-pane viewing/editing.

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I'm working on an alternative system. If you'd like to be a beta tester visit http://lotsofjots.com. Click on the Create an account link and request an invitation code.

 

Some of the things that make it unique from Evernote are: 1) Nested pages, 2) Reuse content on multiple pages, 3) Integrated drawing, 4) Integrated date-based journaling, 5) Split-pane viewing/editing.

 

That link takes you to a sign in or create new account page. Yet there is no information on what the software does.

 

Do you have a website with that information.

 

Best regards

 

Chris

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Hey Chris,

 

Yeah, you're right. The web site is just a sign in page. I'll take your feedback to heart and post some more information on it.

 

In the meantime, here are some videos that I recorded that explains the concepts and what my goals are. Thanks for looking at it.

 

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fllGH_3D76A&list=UUy1mv7YBUcG_ttlGjCijUkw

http://youtu.be/cjkGj_TwL20

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xpMsSbJpHlE&list=UUy1mv7YBUcG_ttlGjCijUkw

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There are lots of note taking alternatives in either Windows and Mac environments but there are very few alternatives that are truly cross platform with versions for Windows/Android/Mac/iOS. 

 

I am a Windows user, but I like the idea that if I ever changed to a Mac I could still access my Evernote auxiliary brain. I have looked at some truly nice note taking programs for Windows, but many don't support Android as well and very few support as many operating systems as Evernote.

 

OneNote is unfortunately almost the only contender for cross-platform that I know about.

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Alan,

I am in the process of creating my own Cross Platform Workflow, taking from what GrumpyMonkey has devised (Thank you GM for sharing your expertise), Dropbox Pro, and Applescript, as well as any other app I may need as I move along.  

 

The instability of Evernote has left me wasting precious time.  On one hand, I will hang on to my EN account in hopes they improve and don't continue down the slippery slope.  On the other hand, as I am building my workflow process, I am finding EN is more confining than what I can do without it.  So, I have been finding this journey interesting.

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Evernote is my repository for stuff that happened in the past.

As opposed to stuff that happened in the future? :)

 

 

Yes, stuff for the future goes into my Google Keep account.

 

I've backed down on discussing how I use Evernote to handle my future appointments, tasks, birthdays, anniversaries. (by editing the Created Date)

 

Even Phil Libin poo-pooed the concept of altering the Created Date field. Back at LeWeb in 2012, he said they were planning to make the "To Do / Calendar Integration / Reminder" feature as a separate app, but they decided to incorporate it in Evernote as a core feature.
 
He tried to laugh off the current users' work-around solutions for the long-promised "Due Date" field by saying:
 
"Notes from the future, they are kind of creepy."

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Just found and viewed this very good video intro/tutorial to OneNote:

OneNote Tutorial by PCClassesOnline.com (YouTube)

 

I highly recommend it.  I found it to be the quickest way to get a basic understanding of OneNote, including its structure of Notebooks > Sections > Pages

 

Two Key Differences between Evernote and OneNote:

  1. Web Clipping
    1. EN is much better, providing many options, clips text of full page, article, simplfied article, and selection
    2. ON clips ONLY an image of the full page -- no options to clip web page text
  2. Tags
    1. EN is much better, allowing you to easily create, select, and SEARCH on tags.
    2. ON has a preset selection of tags, but Tags are NOT searchable!!!

 

EDIT:  For comparison, here is the Evernote Tutorial by PCClassesOnline

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Howdy, EN Power Users:

 

 

I have read a consistently growing number of threads expressing that EN is increasing in calousness towards its subscriber base... causing some of it core supporters and power users to call it "enough."

 

 

From the time you've taken to research, which applications are you finding to be the most VIABLE replacements or alternatives to EN for Power Users?    (Links would be appreciated.)

 

 

 

Most of us have witnessed poorly managed companies drive an exceptional product or service into the ground... and in this case it would directly affect EN users. I use EN to run my business (Win + Android)... so quality, stability and user-friendliness are critical... would prefer to avoid a Titanic mishap well before entering the ice field.

 

 

 

Thank you in advance for a prompt and detailed response.

 

Alan

 

Take a look at C-Command Software's EagleFiler!

Thus far, I am impressed!  Not only by the software, but also with the developer and his great customer service reputation he has.  

One thing I like the best is it stores your files in their original format, easy to get to within the Finder, easy to capture information from any source (okay, more than one thing).

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Take a look at C-Command Software's EagleFiler!

Thus far, I am impressed!  Not only by the software, but also with the developer and his great customer service reputation he has.  

One thing I like the best is it stores your files in their original format, easy to get to within the Finder, easy to capture information from any source (okay, more than one thing).

 

 

Sentinel, thanks for sharing.  EagleFiler looks impressive.

 

How long have you been using it?

Would you mind posting a brief pros/cons comparison with Evernote when you have time?

 

From what I can see the biggest drawback is cross-platform capability.  Looks like it runs only on Macs.  

For me, I'd need it to have an iOS client as well.

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Take a look at C-Command Software's EagleFiler!

Thus far, I am impressed!  Not only by the software, but also with the developer and his great customer service reputation he has.  

One thing I like the best is it stores your files in their original format, easy to get to within the Finder, easy to capture information from any source (okay, more than one thing).

 

 

Sentinel, thanks for sharing.  EagleFiler looks impressive.

 

How long have you been using it?

Would you mind posting a brief pros/cons comparison with Evernote when you have time?

 

From what I can see the biggest drawback is cross-platform capability.  Looks like it runs only on Macs.  

For me, I'd need it to have an iOS client as well.

 

I have only been using it for a couple of days, however, I see no drawbacks as of yet. I thought I would mention it for those who are looking.   I will compile a pro/con list shortly.  

 

It is for Mac only, however, I am able to get to my files (Library) via GoodReader & Dropbox on IOS.  I have been using both of those for years, so the integration felt seamless.  Will advise more soon!

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I've found a sync issue that prevents me opening Evernote. I've been through all the re-install processes, lodged support ticket and told it is a bug with Evernote. Then nothing.

 

I'm very disappointed with this lack of support for Premium members. Now looking at alternatives. 

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If you are looking at Eaglefiler, I'd also recommend considering DEVONthink. In my opinion, DT is the stronger of the two. It is also the most expensive! You'll pay about three or four years of Evernote Premium for it :)

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If you are looking at Eaglefiler, I'd also recommend considering DEVONthink. In my opinion, DT is the stronger of the two. It is also the most expensive! You'll pay about three or four years of Evernote Premium for it :)

Thank you GM for your input.

As always GM, you are correct.  However, DT lacks in some very basic ways until you reach the higher price versions of Pro and Pro Office.  Which brings us back to the cost comparison.  For the money, EF does all that EN can do for me, for much less $ and Tylenol.  No doubt, DT Pro Office has a fantastic package!

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Just found and viewed this very good video intro/tutorial to OneNote:

OneNote Tutorial by PCClassesOnline.com (YouTube)

 

I highly recommend it.  I found it to be the quickest way to get a basic understanding of OneNote, including its structure of Notebooks > Sections > Pages

 

Two Key Differences between Evernote and OneNote:

  1. Web Clipping
    1. EN is much better, providing many options, clips text of full page, article, simplfied article, and selection
    2. ON clips ONLY an image of the full page -- no options to clip web page text
  2. Tags
    1. EN is much better, allowing you to easily create, select, and SEARCH on tags.
    2. ON has a preset selection of tags, but Tags are NOT searchable!!!

 

EDIT:  For comparison, here is the Evernote Tutorial by PCClassesOnline

 

 

Howdy, JMichael:

 

Appreciate your heads-up on David A. Cox's: PC Classes Online:

 

David's YouTube video was very helpful in giving me a good overview of OneNote as well.

 

Just a side note, which may be helpful to some:

  • I use "Download Helper" (a WIN Firefox extension) to download videos to my HDD.
  • Then I R-click on the downloaded video file > click on "Open with" within the drop-down menu
  • Click on VLC Media Player (an alternative WIN video player app) so I can speed-up video play... typically from 30% to 100%, depending on how fast the voice content is (a big video time saver).

 

 

Appreciate!

 

Alan

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I've tried to use Rightnote a few times.  It is not, AFAIK, available for any platform but windows.  You can sync Evernote notes to a RightNote file, though, and in that way use RightNote as your Windows client while using EN on iOS.  I did that with one project for a while.  But the sync is not continuously updated when you change a note, so you have to remember to sync your file when done.  Also, something about the interface just never worked perfectly for me.  Also, it doesn't search within attached files like EN does, but if you only need to search the text of notes, the search is lightning fast.  

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My 

 

 

Just found and viewed this very good video intro/tutorial to OneNote:

OneNote Tutorial by PCClassesOnline.com (YouTube)

 

I highly recommend it.  I found it to be the quickest way to get a basic understanding of OneNote, including its structure of Notebooks > Sections > Pages

 

Two Key Differences between Evernote and OneNote:

  1. Web Clipping
    1. EN is much better, providing many options, clips text of full page, article, simplfied article, and selection
    2. ON clips ONLY an image of the full page -- no options to clip web page text
  2. Tags
    1. EN is much better, allowing you to easily create, select, and SEARCH on tags.
    2. ON has a preset selection of tags, but Tags are NOT searchable!!!

 

EDIT:  For comparison, here is the Evernote Tutorial by PCClassesOnline

 

Just thought I would throw in my 2 cents worth. I have been an Evernote premium subscriber for several years, using the Windows and Android applications and with a current database of around 3,500 notes. Recently, I decided to try out Onenote due to ongoing concerns and frustrations. Most of these have been expressed eloquently by others but in particular, the seeming inability of Evernote to handle high DPI displays (renders text incredibly small on both the screen and web clippings), lack of improvement in editing capabilities (I gave up trying to edit notes in Android because it would just ruin formatting created in the Windows version) and apparent problems that other users with larger databases than mine are having with scale, made me reconsider whether it was wise to continue to rely as heavily on Evernote as I do. As others have pointed out, if there was a roadmap which provided a sense of when such fundamental issues (to me) would be addressed, then there would be a much higher likelihood of remaining patient, because there is a lot to like about the product. However, in the absence of such information I decided to explore alternatives and have been testing out Onenote 2013 for the past few weeks.

 

These are my general observations so far:

 

1. I was able to transfer across my database of notes from Evernote to Onenote fairly seamlessly using a product called Evernote2Onenote. As pointed out in the PCClassesOnline.com video, Onenote uses a Notebook>Section>Page structure and Tags are descriptors only. And, as JMichael points out, you can't sort on Tags in Onenote the way you can in Evernote, which would appear to be a fairly big disadvantage. However, the way Evernote2Onenote converted my notes in Onenote was to create a separate Section for each Tag. So, notes tagged with (say) 'Family' in Evernote came across into Onenote in a Section called 'Family'. Instead of clicking on the Tag 'Family' in Evernote, I just click on the Section 'Family' in Onenote and get exactly the same notes appearing as I would in Evernote viewing the Tag 'Family'. So, in practice, the additional layer of structure in Onenote (ie 'Section) appears to allow you to have most of the sort capabilities of Tags in Evernote. However, while this works quite well for individual Tag items, multiple Tags are more problematical as it would appear you have to copy the note to each specific Section if you want it to appear in a sort of that Section.

 

2. As JMichael notes, Evernote is definitely superior at Web Clipping. There is a web clipper available for Chrome and it is also possible to forward emails from GMail to Onenote using 'me@onenote.com. However, both of these functions bring the clipping across as an image, which is not always ideal. However, there is another product called 'bringtoonenote' which does allow you to bring across web clippings as editable text and appears to work reasonably well, based on my experience. So, while not as good or as flexible as the Evernote offerings, there are workable solutions in Onenote if you do a lot of web clipping.

 

3. Perhaps unsurprisingly, where I find Onenote to be far superior to Evernote is in editing notes. I tend to edit my notes a lot and make use of templates and ultimately gave up trying to edit notes in Android which were created in the Windows client because the formatting would be destroyed. I find it a joy to be able to create a note in Onenote in the Windows client, edit this note in Android and then find that the edits done in Android are perfectly captured when I access the note again from the Windows client. I simply couldn't do this in Evernote and it has made a big difference to how I work.

 

I am intending to continue experimenting with Onenote for the next several weeks. It is not a perfect program and i find it a little unwieldy to navigate around. However, it feels like a solid application (to me, more solid than Evernote is at the moment) and if you like to edit your notes across platforms then it has some definite advantages. 

 

 

Just to add my experience. Since the removal of the ability to share notebooks (later added back in) my trust in Evernote was broken. So I started to try Onenote to create my coaching manuals in.

 

I agree overall with the assessment here of the differences.

 

OneNote is much better at formatting notes and handling pictures and tables. The web clipping is not as good. I will definitely look into the bring to one note extension you suggested.

 

So far, I haven't found a nice vibrant forum for OneNote yet, but overall I am leaning towards moving entirely to OneNote.

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I'm another premium user who is looking hard elsewhere. In my case, the deal-breaking issue is the lack of within-note Find on the Android platform. It's been requested by lots of users for years - and in one version of Android there was an OS-provided workaround, but that disappeared with Android 4.3. That, and the fact that EN themselves have done nothing about it themselves, has driven me away.

 

So what I'm seeking is:

* note encryption

* within-note find

* large notes

* works (including search) with no internet connection

* syncing to and from a Windows and/or browser equivalent

 

It's rather dismaying to see EN scrëwing the pooch soooo badly with their recent builds and (lack of) support.

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I'm another premium user who is looking hard elsewhere. In my case, the deal-breaking issue is the lack of within-note Find on the Android platform. It's been requested by lots of users for years - and in one version of Android there was an OS-provided workaround, but that disappeared with Android 4.3. That, and the fact that EN themselves have done nothing about it themselves, has driven me away.

 

So what I'm seeking is:

* note encryption

* within-note find

* large notes

* works (including search) with no internet connection

* syncing to and from a Windows and/or browser equivalent

 

It's rather dismaying to see EN scrëwing the pooch soooo badly with their recent builds and (lack of) support.

 

On Android, the best you'll find is probably OneNote. No encryption, though. If you want encryption for a note-taking application you'll need to go to iOS and Mac (DEVONthink and VooodooPad are nice). DEVONthink is working on a new version of its iOS app (and has been working on it for a year or two!), while VoodooPad is working on an improved version of its iOS app (and has been for several months). Neither mobile app is really up to the level of Evernote's in most respects. However, they both offer wonderful encryption / security (in the case of DEVONthink, you can sync through Wifi and avoid the cloud entirely).

 

If you look at the options, I think it is clear that Evernote is not "behind" in this respect. However, I think Evernote really needs to get ahead of the competition and implement encryption for notebooks (I would call that "sexy") instead of trying to position itself as an alternative to Office. I don't need another word processor or presentation program. I need a powerful, reliable, and secure information manager. I'd pay for that, and I think a lot of other folks would too (maybe including some of those poor souls who had their naked photos hacked the other day).

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 However, I think Evernote really needs to get ahead of the competition and implement encryption for notebooks (I would call that "sexy") instead of trying to position itself as an alternative to Office. I don't need another word processor or presentation program. I need a powerful, reliable, and secure information manager. I'd pay for that, and I think a lot of other folks would too (maybe including some of those poor souls who had their naked photos hacked the other day).

 

 

GM. we're clearly on the same page here:

 

 

 

I'm still waiting for the sexy encryption but have given up on the Do app.

 

Better, more flexible, encryption is a feature that is well within Evernote's grasp.

For example, adding optional encryption on a per Notebook basis.

Failed security is in the news almost ever day.  Having proper security for their data is rapidly becoming understood and required by more and more people.

 

IMO, Libin needs to forget about replacing MS Office, and focus on making Evernote the #1 guerrilla of information (personal and business) managers.

 

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I have started using OneNote in parallel to Evernote. I now use EN as a digital filing cabinet only & ON for things like my daily journal, book reviews, research & anything else that requires editing/formatting that's more sophisticated than EN's.

As far as clipping is concerned, I don't use ON's clipper, but use a 3rd party called Clip to OneNote. This clips like EN's web clipper: text = text, not an image !!

EN & ON in combination gives me a very powerful tool.

 

I do not agree that EN are trying to replace MS Office, or present themselves as an alternative to MSO. For example, EN does not have a spreadsheet capability, not even a basic one, and its "word processing" capability is nowhere near Word's capabilities. So to say that EN is looking at MSO is misreading the situation.

 

Having said that, there are a number of MSO-type features, like editing, better excel, word, powerpoint integration, positioning of images in a note, as well as other non-MSO features that EN should take on board if they want to keep users satisfied & even stop an outflow of users, because that is what they have to face up to.

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I do not agree that EN are trying to replace MS Office, or present themselves as an alternative to MSO. For example, EN does not have a spreadsheet capability, not even a basic one, and its "word processing" capability is nowhere near Word's capabilities. So to say that EN is looking at MSO is misreading the situation.

Actually, the CEO of Evernote said that they are positioning themselves against Microsoft Office. If the article is correct, then I suppose we should expect some massive improvements to everything. However, like you said, it isn't even in the same league right now, so I am not sure how that is going to happen. More importantly, I don't know why they would want to even mention Office in the same breath as Evernote. It's not putting Evernote in the best light, in my opinion, because anyone comparing the two is going to find Evernote completely inadequate for the use cases implied: complex budgets, publishable documents, professional-grade presentations, etc.

Even if we are just talking about lists (I think that was mentioned in the article), Evernote is widely known as being quite incapable of the most basic ones, because the formatting is inevitably mangled with any kind of editing. Again, I don't really care, and you won't find me complaining much (if at all) anywhere about the "missing" features, because I don't expect Evernote to do much in the way of editing. If Evernote is raising our expectations, that's great, but they had better deliver if they want to have satisfied customers.

I can't help thinking that article must have misquoted Phil. I haven't seen Evernote headed in this direction at all until now. In fact, hearing about Evernote Baby, I was thinking "please no -- focus resources on important stuff like encryption, selective sync, feature parity, or documentation!" The Evernote Baby plan sounded like something Evernote would do, though ill-conceived (in my humble opinion), but the Microsoft Office thing struck me as un-Evernote (at least, the Evernote we have known until now). Heck, they used to pretty much avoid talking about the competition at all, right?

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GM: I fully concur. EN is not even doing the right things to give us a hint they are going in that direction (& they should not) so there must be a misunderstanding.

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Seems to me that Libin does a lot of blue sky thinking in public, this gets Evernote a lot of press coverage.

 

Given that they proudly don't spend any money on advertising this kind of free PR is pretty valuable.

 

I don't know the guy, but he doesn't strike me as having self confidence issues either, so statements like my little company are going to take on Office in the enterprise might just appeal somewhat.

 

Either way, I always take what I hear him say with a handful of salt. 

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"Don't censor yourself, Phil!" is probably a lot like telling him "Don't forget to breathe!" :)

 

I gather he's more of an aim high, dream big sort of guy.

 

I tend to not listen much about what the suits say, because they're usually talking about something in the future. I prefer to listen to the software. With Evernote, so far so good. Not perfect, and not everything I want, but it suits my uses.

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 I need a powerful, reliable, and secure information manager. I'd pay for that, and I think a lot of other folks would too

 

 

Quoted for truth.

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The comments I have posted about OneNote are for OneNote Mac.

It appears that OneNote Win has many more features.

 

For example:

Here is a great addin:

Onetastic is a free multi-purpose addin for Microsoft OneNote 2010 and 2013

See more at: http://www.omeratay.com/onetastic/#sthash.FRufUidr.dpuf

 

IMO, having macros and templates is HUGE.  There is so much one can do with these to customize and make your work more productive.

 

I have read comments from the MS OneNote team that they are hard at work on the Mac client, and plan soon to add more features to it.  As I posted above, MS has made a strong committment to cross-platform.

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Thank you JM!  Excellent info!

 

Although I am still find using EagleFiler a better approach for me at this time, I will continue to review OneNote.  If the Mac client will be as robust as the Windows client, then it will deem serious consideration.

 

There are many features of OneNote I like, don't get me wrong, but having my files stored and managed in their original format is a big feature for me.  I don't need a robust Note taking app as much as I need a solid Document Management System.  Which, EagleFiler is, and EN "could" be.

 

Once again, thanks for the update and info!

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Can anyone bring me up to speed on OneNote data security? Does ON offer an option to store some of your data ONLY on your local drive, like EN does with local notebooks? Or does everything get stored to OneNote's cloud?

 

For data that is stored to the cloud, is there a zero knowledge encryption option? Or do we have to trust MS, which is among the companies that have opened their kimonos to the NSA?

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Can anyone bring me up to speed on OneNote data security? Does ON offer an option to store some of your data ONLY on your local drive, like EN does with local notebooks? Or does everything get stored to OneNote's cloud?

 

For data that is stored to the cloud, is there a zero knowledge encryption option? Or do we have to trust MS, which is among the companies that have opened their kimonos to the NSA?

 

Onenote allows you to save a notebook on your computer only or to the cloud. The thing I've not figured out is how to make local backups of notebooks in the cloud.  There is this thread, that I've not had time to study yet: http://windowsitpro.com/onenote/back-skydrive-hosted-onenote-notebooks#

 

Onenote appears to use zero knowledge encryption b/c when I encrypted a notebook, it gives the message "If you lose or forget the password, Onenote cannot recover your data."

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Microsoft Contact for OneNote

 

It looks like there may be a direct contact at Microsoft available for OneNote feedback.

On the Onetastic for OneNote site I found this contact info:

 

Contact

Hi, I am Omer Atay. I am a software developer at Microsoft OneNote team. If you want to contact me, send me an e-mail at email.png. You can also post a comment to the blog.

If you are looking for help on OneNote, please post in the forums at Microsoft Community.

 

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Can anyone bring me up to speed on OneNote data security? Does ON offer an option to store some of your data ONLY on your local drive, like EN does with local notebooks? Or does everything get stored to OneNote's cloud?

 

For data that is stored to the cloud, is there a zero knowledge encryption option? Or do we have to trust MS, which is among the companies that have opened their kimonos to the NSA?

 

Onenote allows you to save a notebook on your computer only or to the cloud. The thing I've not figured out is how to make local backups of notebooks in the cloud.  There is this thread, that I've not had time to study yet: http://windowsitpro.com/onenote/back-skydrive-hosted-onenote-notebooks#

 

Onenote appears to use zero knowledge encryption b/c when I encrypted a notebook, it gives the message "If you lose or forget the password, Onenote cannot recover your data."

 

OK, so similar ability to keep some of your data local and out of the cloud. And possibly better encryption of data that is stored on the cloud than EN is offering. I suspect EN will never offer zero knowledge encryption - their vision for information management seems incompatible with high levels of security; might be same for every company - everybody wants to mine your data, which is why local-only storage is likely the best option to keep your data secure. Of course that cuts against anywhere/any device access to data, but you can't have it all I suppose.

 

Checked out the video tutorial JM posted. ON's webclipper looks horrible in comparison to EN's, but I'm sure they'll improve that relatively quickly. The tags feature makes little sense. Why not let users define the tags, and make them searchable.

 

ON's editor is obviously in a different league from EN's, but it's almost too much for my purposes. A simple editor with maybe a few more features than EN's, and without the issues re: editing/indenting bulleted lists, as well as the Android app editor boogering up the note, and I'd be happy. And I'm disappointed that ON's tables don't support calculation functions. If I need to attach a spreadsheet for even basic calcs, EN can do that just fine.

 

ON seems to be making progress, but from a quick peek, it's not sufficiently compelling for me to make the jump at this point. But after seeing (or rather, not seeing) EN's path forward and their seeming inability/disinterest in resolving even basic issues like the many editor quirks discussed ad nauseam on this forum, or readability (yes, I'm talking about the low contrast grey or light green text on white background), I am definitely keeping my eyes open for another horse.

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OK, so similar ability to keep some of your data local and out of the cloud. And possibly better encryption of data that is stored on the cloud than EN is offering. I suspect EN will never offer zero knowledge encryption - their vision for information management seems incompatible with high levels of security; might be same for every company - everybody wants to mine your data, which is why local-only storage is likely the best option to keep your data secure. Of course that cuts against anywhere/any device access to data, but you can't have it all I suppose.

 

 

Checked out the video tutorial JM posted. ON's webclipper looks horrible in comparison to EN's, but I'm sure they'll improve that relatively quickly. The tags feature makes little sense. Why not let users define the tags, and make them searchable.

 

ON's editor is obviously in a different league from EN's, but it's almost too much for my purposes. A simple editor with maybe a few more features than EN's, and without the issues re: editing/indenting bulleted lists, as well as the Android app editor boogering up the note, and I'd be happy. And I'm disappointed that ON's tables don't support calculation functions. If I need to attach a spreadsheet for even basic calcs, EN can do that just fine.

 

ON seems to be making progress, but from a quick peek, it's not compelling enough for me to make the jump. But after seeing (or rather, not seeing) EN's path forward and their seeming inability/disinterest in resolving even basic issues like the many editor quirks discussed ad nauseam , or readability (yes, I'm talking about the low contrast grey on white or light green on white text), I am definitely keeping my eyes open for another horse.

 

 

In regards to secure cloud storage, DropBox, SugarSync and a few others offer encryption.  So those are an option for you in that regard.

 

I am finding using a simple RTF document serves me better than EN.  And RTF supports tables, holds digital media, etc.  

 

Web clippings:  Any web page can be exported as a PDF, then annotated with any pdf editor.  Or, copy/paste.  Both beat the defective clipper with EN.  

 

Compiling it all:  Not sure what OS you use, however, I am using EagleFiler (Mac only app) with the above, without all of the headaches of EN.  EagleFiler does not create your files in a proprietary format either.  It keeps your files in their original format, allowing for easy integration/collaboration with others. EF has a great web clipper, and also offers 128/256 encryption, with local storage and the cloud storage of your choice.

 

It is easy to get caught up in looking for ONE app to do everything.  I don't think we will find that (although I had HIGH hopes in EN), particularly without having that app create files in it's own proprietary file format that are unusable outside of the app.  

 

OneNote seems to be another app that confines the file format to itself, not allowing one to collaborate with others who do not have OneNote.  Like EN, not everyone wants to download another app just to collaborate with your files for a brief or ongoing time frame.  That is a lot to ask of others outside our own organization.

 

If one finds another "horse" that is capable of it all, please do let us know!

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OK, so similar ability to keep some of your data local and out of the cloud. And possibly better encryption of data that is stored on the cloud than EN is offering. I suspect EN will never offer zero knowledge encryption - their vision for information management seems incompatible with high levels of security; might be same for every company - everybody wants to mine your data, which is why local-only storage is likely the best option to keep your data secure. Of course that cuts against anywhere/any device access to data, but you can't have it all I suppose.

 

 

Checked out the video tutorial JM posted. ON's webclipper looks horrible in comparison to EN's, but I'm sure they'll improve that relatively quickly. The tags feature makes little sense. Why not let users define the tags, and make them searchable.

 

ON's editor is obviously in a different league from EN's, but it's almost too much for my purposes. A simple editor with maybe a few more features than EN's, and without the issues re: editing/indenting bulleted lists, as well as the Android app editor boogering up the note, and I'd be happy. And I'm disappointed that ON's tables don't support calculation functions. If I need to attach a spreadsheet for even basic calcs, EN can do that just fine.

 

ON seems to be making progress, but from a quick peek, it's not compelling enough for me to make the jump. But after seeing (or rather, not seeing) EN's path forward and their seeming inability/disinterest in resolving even basic issues like the many editor quirks discussed ad nauseam , or readability (yes, I'm talking about the low contrast grey on white or light green on white text), I am definitely keeping my eyes open for another horse.

 

In regards to secure cloud storage, DropBox, SugarSync and a few others offer encryption.  So those are an option for you in that regard.

 

I am finding using a simple RTF document serves me better than EN.  And RTF supports tables, holds digital media, etc.  

 

Web clippings:  Any web page can be exported as a PDF, then annotated with any pdf editor.  Or, copy/paste.  Both beat the defective clipper with EN.  

 

Compiling it all:  Not sure what OS you use, however, I am using EagleFiler (Mac only app) with the above, without all of the headaches of EN.  EagleFiler does not create your files in a proprietary format either.  It keeps your files in their original format, allowing for easy integration/collaboration with others. EF has a great web clipper, and also offers 128/256 encryption, with local storage and the cloud storage of your choice.

 

It is easy to get caught up in looking for ONE app to do everything.  I don't think we will find that (although I had HIGH hopes in EN), particularly without having that app create files in it's own proprietary file format that are unusable outside of the app.

 

OneNote seems to be another app that confines the file format to itself, not allowing one to collaborate with others who do not have OneNote.  Like EN, not everyone wants to download another app just to collaborate with your files for a brief or ongoing time frame.  That is a lot to ask of others outside our own organization.

 

If one finds another "horse" that is capable of it all, please do let us know!

 

 

Not sure what you mean by storage in their own proprietary format.

Both EN & ON save excel files as excel files, Word as Word, PDf as PDF, etc. So it seems to me you have the wrong impression?

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No wrong impression here. Been using EN for a while and experiencing it's issues just as long!

I am aware it will keep the files in their original format as you described. However, if you need to export your notes and data, (due to the app crashing, to migrate to another app, etc.) it is done so using either .enex format or HTML, in a convoluted structure and database requiring a multi step process or third party tool to move the data into another app, or to find a particular file you may need to locate.

EagleFiler utilizes the same file and folder structure as the Mac OS, making transitions simple and file sharing easy as the Mac OS is to operate.

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Dropbox has encryption, but it holds the keys, so it gives a false sense of security. If you are looking for encryption, I recommend a zero-knowledge (only you have the key) service.

Evernote's file structure is not meant to be accessed by users directly, so it can be a little less "portable" than other solutions. The format (html with attachments as necessary) is quite portable, though.

Mac users (as I discuss on my website) have a lot of nice options for managing files. In fact, out of the box, the Mac has pretty much all of the information management tools you need. Evernote's strength, in my opinion, is its cross-platform integration. If that doesn't matter to you, you'll have an easier time moving your stuff to something else. Or, you could always use something like DEVONthink to index your Evernote stuff.

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In regards to secure cloud storage, DropBox, SugarSync and a few others offer encryption.  So those are an option for you in that regard.

As GM points out, DropBox holds the encryption keys, so if they get hacked and the keys are stolen, your data can be unencrypted. Or if the government wants to see everyone's data (which seems to be the way things are heading), DropBox can simply give them the keys. SpiderOak seems to be a better solution - zero knowledge encryption (you hold the keys).
 
But DropBox is just a syncable file storage solution, at least in how I've been using it. It's not an information manager that lets me easily create and search my notes, clip info from the web, etc.

 

 

It is easy to get caught up in looking for ONE app to do everything.  I don't think we will find that (although I had HIGH hopes in EN)

 

I guess that's what I'm hoping for. I know some people use EN for some things, and ON for others, etc., but that seems like a lot of overhead to manage.

 

EN is close enough for my purposes for right now. But with the various issues that are often discussed on this forum, lack of guidance re: EN's forward path apart from the CEO's talk about taking on MS Office (exactly the wrong direction from what I want in an information manager developed by a co with limited resources), their penchant for dropping features with no warning (e.g., public links), etc., I'm certainly keeping an eye out for other solutions. ON has made huge strides, and I'm sure EN's growth (and eventual/potential IPO) has not gone unnoticed, so I assume we will see more and more serious entrants in this space. As people are decreasingly tied to one job for decades, the demand for personal information management solutions is only going to increase.

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Encryption: the 2 best ones are probably SpiderOak and Wuala. The latter is Switzerland, France & Germany-based, i.e. outside the US.

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Encryption: the 2 best ones are probably SpiderOak and Wuala. The latter is Switzerland, France & Germany-based, i.e. outside the US.

the former is recommended by snowden. it has zero knowledge encryption and a "canary" system to inform users if the govt. does try and compel them to hand over data. i don't think it matters so much where they are located as long as they are zero knowledge.

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Encryption: the 2 best ones are probably SpiderOak and Wuala. The latter is Switzerland, France & Germany-based, i.e. outside the US.

the former is recommended by snowden. it has zero knowledge encryption and a "canary" system to inform users if the govt. does try and compel them to hand over data. i don't think it matters so much where they are located as long as they are zero knowledge.

Additionally, I've heard it doesn't matter where the company is based, but where the servers are located. However, I have no idea if this is accurate or not.

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Encryption: the 2 best ones are probably SpiderOak and Wuala. The latter is Switzerland, France & Germany-based, i.e. outside the US.

the former is recommended by snowden. it has zero knowledge encryption and a "canary" system to inform users if the govt. does try and compel them to hand over data. i don't think it matters so much where they are located as long as they are zero knowledge.

Additionally, I've heard it doesn't matter where the company is based, but where the servers are located. However, I have no idea if this is accurate or not.

this is a complicated problem, as data is often moved through various jurisdictions and across borders without your knowledge in backup centers or in the course of daily operations.

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I have been using SpiderOak for my sensitive files for the zero knowledge encryption and have found it's simplicity refreshing! @GM: Agreed! I think the location of some data banks are best left unknown. One would be amazed with the stats on "walk-in" threats to data, to include vetted employees. I have many stories on that to share.

Point being, you truly cannot be too careful with your sensitive data. I have been finding someone else's data in my EN account (properly reported to EN Suipport) over the past few months which forced me to withdraw anything other than web clippings from my EN account.

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I have been finding someone else's data in my EN account (properly reported to EN Suipport) over the past few months which forced me to withdraw anything other than web clippings from my EN account.

Do you mind sharing what support said about this?  Were they able to determine the root cause?

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I have been finding someone else's data in my EN account (properly reported to EN Suipport) over the past few months which forced me to withdraw anything other than web clippings from my EN account.

Do you mind sharing what support said about this?  Were they able to determine the root cause?

 

I'm curious about this as well.

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Well, that is part of my extreme dissatisfaction with EN.  NO!  I gave them full access to my account and they could not determine how someone else's data showed up in my account.  They investigated it quite a while (over 2 months) with no answers.  I have much more to say about the issue, but I promised EN I would not express the remaining here.

 

All I can say is, they have no clue how it appeared, and how it reappeared after I deleted it.  I am not at liberty to discuss the details of the content of the data, except to say, it was not "personally sensitive data".

 

I recall this happening to someone else a month or so before it happened to me.  I am not aware of the details surrounding that case.  Needless to say, I doubt it will be the last time it occurs.  At least, I cannot trust it will not be!

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Sorry to hear that EN couldn't get to the bottom of this (or was unwilling to share the details).  I had seen the earlier post from another user and had hoped it was a one off ... apparently not.

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Well, that is part of my extreme dissatisfaction with EN. NO! I gave them full access to my account and they could not determine how someone else's data showed up in my account. They investigated it quite a while (over 2 months) with no answers. I have much more to say about the issue, but I promised EN I would not express the remaining here.

All I can say is, they have no clue how it appeared, and how it reappeared after I deleted it. I am not at liberty to discuss the details of the content of the data, except to say, it was not "personally sensitive data".

I recall this happening to someone else a month or so before it happened to me. I am not aware of the details surrounding that case. Needless to say, I doubt it will be the last time it occurs. At least, I cannot trust it will not be!

This is, as far as I can tell, a fundamental breach of security at Evernote: Evernote is taking data from one account and placing it without the owner's knowledge into someone else's account. And, I think it is unethical to try and have affected users keep quiet about it.

 

[EDIT:] I think this statement about being "unethical" is maybe a little too strong, because we just don't have enough information to say what's what. Third-party apps (not Evernote, as I suggested in this post) were apparently mucking up accounts by leaking data from one to the other, but that is about it, and even that is secondhand information (kindly posted by Sentinel). I'd still like to see an official response. I posted more thoughts later in this thread here https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/66103-power-user-discontent-best-alternatives-to-en/?p=304075

---------------

Here is the tl;dr version of my thinking:

This is the second case we have seen with this leak of data from one account to another.

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/59327-random-content-appearing-in-my-account-via-email/

Obviously, I don't know the details of either case. In fact, I have many questions. How many people have been affected? Has Evernote informed them that their accounts were compromised? Has Evernote determined the cause of the problem? Has Evernote fixed the problem? Is there anything we can do to help (reporting if we see mysterious data appearing in our accounts)?

Instead of informing us about the problem (a PR black eye, to be sure) they've apparently tried to cover this up by asking you to remain silent about it. I understand that impulse, but it is exactly the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.This "solution" of keeping quiet about a security breach sounds quite unethical to me, and it undermines my trust in the company. Certainly, if you use Evernote to keep tax, bank, medical, private photos, or other sensitive materials (I've long warned against it) then you could have been exposed and you wouldn't even know it, so this seems pretty serious to me.

I honestly wonder if I am making too much of this, and I don't throw around the word "unethical" lightly, especially when it comes to people I like and respect (the developers and staff at Evernote). When people get together into a group, especially for a cause they believe in, sometimes they do things that they wouldn't do as individuals, so I can imagine how this happened. But, I can't agree with the decision. I'd be happy for someone to jump in here and tell me I've gone too far and I'm wrong about how I've interpreted this situation.

One thing that bothers me is that it is somewhat similar to some cases a while back of local notebooks (ones that are not supposed to sync, and ones that often contain confidential data) getting synced to Evernote servers. In this case, the "breach" was contained within an account. Although it was bad, especially for users who trusted that their data would remain off the cloud, no actual leakage of data to third parties occurred. Unfortunately, Evernote never announced what the problem was, how many had been affected, or whether it was solved. I think I understand why they didn't mention their warts, but, from the perspective of a user who used to rely heavily on local notebooks to keep data confidential, I think that was a poor decision. Fortunately, they never (as far as I know) asked users to keep it quiet.

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38259-local-notebook-uploaded-and-synced/

In Sentinel's case, it sounds like they are continuing the same pattern of behavior (a lack of transparency about the problem) and also trying to keep it quiet. Again, I'd welcome any comments telling me that I am wrong and have misunderstood what is happening. This is sad to see.

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@GM:  You are right on target!  A blanket message to all of EN user should have been published announcing the "leakage", and the steps they are taking to remedy the issue.  But we get nothing!  Unethical is one word.  There is another I would use, but it seems to be too subjective of a term.

 

It is easy to down play such a situation hoping time will let it pass.  It seems EN is spreading itself too thin, and not focusing on the core service to get it stable.

 

I think they should abandon apps like Food, etc., in order to make the core product/service better.  However, with statements like targeting Office, leads me to believe they are trying to bite off more than they can chew, and not concentrate on stabilizing the core product.  I can store my recipes in the core product.  I don;t need Food to do that.  For my needs, security is the priority over recipes and clipping only a section of a web page.

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@GM:  You are right on target!  A blanket message to all of EN user should have been published announcing the "leakage", and the steps they are taking to remedy the issue.  But we get nothing!  Unethical is one word.  There is another I would use, but it seems to be too subjective of a term.

 

It is easy to down play such a situation hoping time will let it pass.  It seems EN is spreading itself too thin, and not focusing on the core service to get it stable.

 

I think they should abandon apps like Food, etc., in order to make the core product/service better.  However, with statements like targeting Office, leads me to believe they are trying to bite off more than they can chew, and not concentrate on stabilizing the core product.  I can store my recipes in the core product.  I don;t need Food to do that.  For my needs, security is the priority over recipes and clipping only a section of a web page.

Glad to hear I am not the only one who thinks this way. I don't know if this is a result of them spreading themselves too thin or not, but I believe Phil said in that article that they have already abandoned Food, so that might help them concentrate resources more effectively on the core services. As for Office, I don't know what to think about it, because it is such an odd direction to take considering their development up until now. It makes me wonder if I actually understand their vision and what they are trying to do. I look forward to hearing more specifics in the future.

This situation hasn't raised much of a fuss among the tech writers (unlike a blog post did a while back), so I expect this will blow over. The reaction by Evernote, though, is hopefully not part of a pattern. If so, it is neither good for users, whose data is not being handled appropriately, nor Evernote, which aims to be a trusted repository of our data. I think they can do better, but I wonder if they will. Until then, this simply reinforces my belief that any data you wouldn't want to share publicly with the world right now is best left in your hands and kept out of the cloud.

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This situation hasn't raised much of a fuss among the tech writers (unlike a blog post did a while back), so I expect this will blow over. 

Why not much fuss?  And yes, it probably will blow over.  Which I suspect EN is hoping for, but it should NOT blow over!

They need to correct this issue before they get anymore experiment funding from me.

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Since it seems that we have focused on the security features/issues/concerns of alternate PIMs, I thought you might find this helpful.

 

From The Best Cloud Storage Services that Protect Your Privacy, Jul 2013

 

I found this to be an excellent article that covers the following:

  • The 5 Best Cloud services with encryption (including SpiderOak and Wuala and others)
  • Cloud Storage Services that Don't Value Your Privacy
  • How To Add a Second Layer of Encryption yourself to services like DropBox, Google, etc
  • How to setup you own private Cloud storage service 

Remember that MS OneNote uses MS OneDrive to store your Notes.

 

On the other end of the spectrum, Microsoft's SkyDrive [now called OneDrive] has regularly come under scrutiny by privacy advocates. Microsoft is known to scan its users' files, sometimes with disastrous results.In 2011, a German photographer had his Microsoft accounts restricted because Microsoft deemed some of his professional work "questionable." 

Another user had his accounts closed even though the content he had stored was in a private folder, accessible only to him. SkyDrive isn't alone hereApple reserves the right to scan your files stored in iCloud for illegal or malicious content as well.

 

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This is, as far as I can tell, a fundamental breach of security at Evernote: Evernote is taking data from one account and placing it without the owner's knowledge into someone else's account. And, I think it is unethical to try and have affected users keep quiet about it.

---------------

Here is the tl;dr version of my thinking:

This is the second case we have seen with this leak of data from one account to another.

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/59327-random-content-appearing-in-my-account-via-email/

Obviously, I don't know the details of either case. In fact, I have many questions. How many people have been affected? Has Evernote informed them that their accounts were compromised? Has Evernote determined the cause of the problem? Has Evernote fixed the problem? Is there anything we can do to help (reporting if we see mysterious data appearing in our accounts)?

Instead of informing us about the problem (a PR black eye, to be sure) they've apparently tried to cover this up by asking you to remain silent about it. I understand that impulse, but it is exactly the wrong thing to do, in my opinion.This "solution" of keeping quiet about a security breach sounds quite unethical to me, and it undermines my trust in the company. Certainly, if you use Evernote to keep tax, bank, medical, private photos, or other sensitive materials (I've long warned against it) then you could have been exposed and you wouldn't even know it, so this seems pretty serious to me.

I honestly wonder if I am making too much of this, and I don't throw around the word "unethical" lightly, especially when it comes to people I like and respect (the developers and staff at Evernote). When people get together into a group, especially for a cause they believe in, sometimes they do things that they wouldn't do as individuals, so I can imagine how this happened. But, I can't agree with the decision. I'd be happy for someone to jump in here and tell me I've gone too far and I'm wrong about how I've interpreted this situation.

One thing that bothers me is that it is somewhat similar to some cases a while back of local notebooks (ones that are not supposed to sync, and ones that often contain confidential data) getting synced to Evernote servers. In this case, the "breach" was contained within an account. Although it was bad, especially for users who trusted that their data would remain off the cloud, no actual leakage of data to third parties occurred. Unfortunately, Evernote never announced what the problem was, how many had been affected, or whether it was solved. I think I understand why they didn't mention their warts, but, from the perspective of a user who used to rely heavily on local notebooks to keep data confidential, I think that was a poor decision. Fortunately, they never (as far as I know) asked users to keep it quiet.

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38259-local-notebook-uploaded-and-synced/

In Sentinel's case, it sounds like they are continuing the same pattern of behavior (a lack of transparency about the problem) and also trying to keep it quiet. Again, I'd welcome any comments telling me that I am wrong and have misunderstood what is happening. This is sad to see.

 

GM, I concur with your thoughts on this issue.

 

As I was reading, I was thinking to myself, "This is one of the reasons why I use local notebooks for personal info I wouldn't want anyone else to see/access" - and then I read about the incident in which local notebooks were getting synced to the cloud. Pretty scary for anyone who values privacy.

 

I wish EN would let us know how exactly that happened and what kind of assurance they can give us that it won't happen again.

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@ Sentinel: I believe, in the interest of all users, INCLUDING YOURSELF, that you should blow the issue about the cross-account data leakage wide open, explaining on this forum exactly what happened, without naming people of course. It is the only way to force Evernote to do something about it properly.

 

By agreeing to not say anything about it the keep getting away with this kind of behaviour. Evernote's services have seriously started to degrade & if they don't turn it around quickly worse things will happen. Abandoning the Food app is a really pathetic way of trying to convince people they are doing something.

 

Everyone: I also had medical, tax & bank data in my synched notebook so as to share it with my wife more easily, but I have now put all of that back into my local notebook.

 

With all that has been said recently about Evernote's services I am doubting more & more its suitability as a long term serious partner & app. I have personally had very good support so far so have no major complaints. But I am starting to be deeply concerned about all the rest.

 

Phil Libin's continued aloofness is something that is really starting to bother me, giving me the feeling that he looks at his customers, including the paying ones, with a certain  disdain. He obviously does not deem it necessary to come out & address the 2 major issues right now:

  • security
  • an alternative app - people asking for & investigating an alternative app that gives them more satisfaction

Has anything changed since this seismic article http://jasonkincaid.net/2014/01/evernote-the-bug-ridden-elephant/ by Jason Kincaid in January 2014? Phil responded to it (i.e. decided it was important enough to climb down from his ivory tower) here http://blog.evernote.com/blog/2014/01/04/on-software-quality/.

 

Incidentally, he is not trying to replace MS Office, if you read this articel well https://recode.net/2014/09/02/evernotes-phil-libin-has-come-to-bury-microsoft-office-not-praise-it/. If I am wrong & he would try it, he would definitely break his neck.

 

My feeling is nothing has seriously changed & that Evernote is cruising for a bruising even without replacing MS Office, but Libin does not seem to see it coming or, more likely, seems to prefer to stick his head in the sand.

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Everyone: I also had medical, tax & bank data in my synched notebook so as to share it with my wife more easily, but I have now put all of that back into my local notebook.

I used to feel confident that my local data would stay local, but after reading the thread where a user's local notebook was synced to the cloud, I am not so sure anymore.

 

Has anything changed since this seismic article http://jasonkincaid.net/2014/01/evernote-the-bug-ridden-elephant/ by Jason Kincaid in January 2014? Phil responded to it (i.e. decided it was important enough to climb down from his ivory tower) here http://blog.evernote.com/blog/2014/01/04/on-software-quality/.

Thanks for posting this. That January 2014 blog post really hit home for me, particularly these portions:

 

Evernote’s applications are glitchy to the extreme; they often feel as if they’re held together by the engineering equivalent of duct tape.

 

. . . 

 

More than that, I am alarmed that Evernote seems to be playing fast and loose with the data entrusted to it. Instead of building a product that is secure, reliable, and fast, it has spread itself too thin, trying to build out its install base across as many platforms as possible in an attempt to fend off its inevitable competition.
 
This strategy is tolerable for a social network or messaging app (Facebook got away with atrociously buggy apps for years). But Evernote is literally aiming to be an extension of your brain, the place to store your most important ideas. Its slogan is “Remember Everything”. Presumably the integrity of its data should be of the utmost importance.
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One thing that bothers me is that it is somewhat similar to some cases a while back of local notebooks (ones that are not supposed to sync, and ones that often contain confidential data) getting synced to Evernote servers. In this case, the "breach" was contained within an account. Although it was bad, especially for users who trusted that their data would remain off the cloud, no actual leakage of data to third parties occurred. Unfortunately, Evernote never announced what the problem was, how many had been affected, or whether it was solved. I think I understand why they didn't mention their warts, but, from the perspective of a user who used to rely heavily on local notebooks to keep data confidential, I think that was a poor decision. Fortunately, they never (as far as I know) asked users to keep it quiet.

https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38259-local-notebook-uploaded-and-synced/

In Sentinel's case, it sounds like they are continuing the same pattern of behavior (a lack of transparency about the problem) and also trying to keep it quiet. Again, I'd welcome any comments telling me that I am wrong and have misunderstood what is happening. This is sad to see.

 

I experienced the local notebook issue and view it different from this current problem.  If I remember correctly (iffy) this crept into one of the early v5 betas.  Back then I downloaded betas the day they came out.  To Evernote's credit they jumped on that one fast.  I received a PM from one of the developers and they worked with me until a fix was confirmed in a later beta.  I don't think this problem ever existed on a GA version.  My take away from that was I wait now and check forum reports before trying a new beta.

 

Remember those nice little icons we had to distinguish between local and sync'd notebooks?  Well that was how I first noticed the problem.  I noticed a local notebook had the sync icon next to it.  Those very helpful icons have since been removed :(

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As a side note, since OneNote is the most often mentioned direct competitor to EN, I thought I'd check out their forum and see what issues ON users complain about. Turns out the ON forum is practically a ghost town. 

 

http://www.msofficeforums.com/onenote/

 

First page still has posts as old as 3 months. And note how many posts have zero replies. Makes me grateful for all the regular posters here. Even if you can't resolve, or find a workaround for, a problem I'm having, at least you can commiserate!  :)

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Well, lo & behold, about Thursday morning, my Duet account (the account I had to create b/c Evernote could no longer handle my main account b/c Evernote really doesn't scale well.  Search the board on 'duet' for more info) started not syncing notes/changes UP.  It will sync things emailed or clipped to it DOWN from the EN servers.  But nothing is going UP.  Sync always ends with the red icon with the exclamation point over the sync button.  This has been going on for several days now & persists even with rebooting my computer.  I've dealt with EN long enough to know the SOP is to export the unsync'd notes to enex, rebuild my database from the EN servers & then import the enex file.  (sigh)  Just one more affirmation that I can no longer rely upon Evernote.  Can't tell you how many times I've done this in the past with not only the duet account but also my main account.  Seriously...you couldn't count the times on just two hands.  It's tiresome. 

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I've dealt with EN long enough to know the SOP is to export the unsync'd notes to enex, rebuild my database from the EN servers & then import the enex file.  (sigh)  Just one more affirmation that I can no longer rely upon Evernote.  Can't tell you how many times I've done this in the past with not only the duet account but also my main account.  Seriously...you couldn't count the times on just two hands.  It's tiresome. 

No app that is ready for primetime should require its users to do all this. This kind of issue goes directly to what Libin talked about in his January 2014 response to the 'Bug Ridden Elephant' blog post - i.e., fixing/refining the core app.

 

When I first started using EN, I recommended it to a number of people. I can no longer do so, at least not without lots of caveats - without those caveats, I'd be downright embarrassed if they came to me and I had to suggest what BNF outlined above. I now also suggest they try both EN and ON.

 

I think I speak for the vast majority of forum members, even the most critical ones, when I say that we want to love EN; we want to rely on it as our external brain; we want to be confident that our data is secure; we want to stop keeping tabs on developments at EN's competitors with an eye to potentially jumping ship. But EN is making this very difficult to do!

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As a side note, since OneNote is the most often mentioned direct competitor to EN, I thought I'd check out their forum and see what issues ON users complain about. Turns out the ON forum is practically a ghost town. 

 

http://www.msofficeforums.com/onenote/

 

First page still has posts as old as 3 months. And note how many posts have zero replies. Makes me grateful for all the regular posters here. Even if you can't resolve, or find a workaround for, a problem I'm having, at least you can commiserate!  :)

 

Don't bother with the forum. There is much better: https://plus.google.com/explore/OneNote and https://plus.google.com/communities/117204050916106398006 and https://onedrive.live.com/view.aspx?resid=BACAE6530619FB93!2057&app=OneNote&authkey=!AOdDrcSZSizJ17o.

Evernote can learn 1 or 2 things from these sites.

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Well, lo & behold, about Thursday morning, my Duet account (the account I had to create b/c Evernote could no longer handle my main account b/c Evernote really doesn't scale well.  Search the board on 'duet' for more info) started not syncing notes/changes UP.  It will sync things emailed or clipped to it DOWN from the EN servers.  But nothing is going UP.  Sync always ends with the red icon with the exclamation point over the sync button.  This has been going on for several days now & persists even with rebooting my computer.  I've dealt with EN long enough to know the SOP is to export the unsync'd notes to enex, rebuild my database from the EN servers & then import the enex file.  (sigh)  Just one more affirmation that I can no longer rely upon Evernote.  Can't tell you how many times I've done this in the past with not only the duet account but also my main account.  Seriously...you couldn't count the times on just two hands.  It's tiresome. 

Sorry to hear about the continued problems.  If it is any (tiny) consolation, I appreciate you and the few other large account holders taking the wind burn on this one and reporting your problems.  It has caused me, and likely others, to scale back our usage and avoid (at least for now) some of the grief that you have been experiencing.

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Personally, I'm at EN terror level yellow ... or is it orange, *****, I never can keep those straight. 

 

For Windows users ON does seem to be the only other current viable option.  I was a past user and just really didn't like the interface but I'm adaptable and will use whatever provides me the most benefit.  I was an EN user back in the endless tape days and I didn't like that interface either, but for me the good outweighed the bad.  Even with the current crop of problems and concerns, for my usage, the good still outweighs the bad but the balance is starting to get awfully close.

 

Here's hoping that EN can get the train back on the track and pointed in the right direction.

 

Never expected c-r-a-p to be in the foul language filter

Edited by s2sailor
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WRT ON's screen cap...I've been using Evernote's screen cap.  On the Windows client, invoke EN screen cap & do your drag...but before letting up on the mouse, hold CTRL & then release mouse button.  This sends the clip to the clipboard where you can paste it into ON (or any other app you happen to be using). I have SnagIt.  But since I normally have EN running, this is just easier.

 

FWIW, although I've contributed to this thread, out of respect to Evernote, I think it's best to discuss some of the finer points of migrating away from EN NOT on their message board.  I was hoping to look into someplace to do that but simply have not had the time.  If anyone would care to research this & set something up & PM those who have publicly stated they are/may be interested in such a board, then that may be a more respectful way to share information.  JMO.

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I have already mentioned the security breach I experienced with Evernote (EN) this year.  There is not much more to add except the following:


 


June 2014


4 Notebooks appeared in one of my Evernote accounts.  Notebook A contained 2 Notes.  Notebook B contained 7 Notes.  Notebook C contained 1 Note  Notebook D contained 1 Note


 


I notified Evernote Support via their Support Ticket System along with an Activity Log.  


This incident had come on the heels of another user finding Notes being emailed into his Evernote Account. ( https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/59327-random-content-appearing-in-my-account-via-email/ ).


 


Evernote Support inquired with me about the various web applications I had attached to my Evernote account, such as Zapier.  They assumed one of these services were the culprit in the Notebooks being placed in my account.  I disagreed with this, since the Web applications I was using could not create Notebooks and place Notes within them.  It could only copy information, create a Note, and paste that information in a Note in my EN account, in a specified Notebook.  In addition, the web applications I had attached at the time never created any Notes for me during this time frame.


 


Nevertheless, I canceled all of those applications I had connected to my account. In addition, I disconnected ALL devices connected to my account except my MBP.  I also deleted the foreign Notebooks from my account and emptied the trash.  I opened my account using the web interface to confirm the Notes and Notebooks had been deleted.


 


Sync Issue:  I see no link between this and the security breach:  A few days later, I had submitted a Support Ticket because my desktop EN client would enter the Sync mode and remain stuck for several hours at a time, never completing the sync.   A few people had reported the same issue in the forum during this time frame as well.  After the usual uninstall/reinstall of the EN client, the sync problem did not recur. 


 


Notebooks Reapear:  A few days later, the same Notebooks I mentioned earlier DID reappear in my EN account again.  Same Notebooks, same Note count.  With ONE EXCEPTION:  Notebook D did not reappear.  Only Notebooks A-C.  Be advised, on both occasions, I NEVER opened any of the Notebooks, nor did I view any of the Notes.


 


I submitted another Support Ticket advising EN the Notebooks reappeared in my account.  I sent them the Activity Log as well as gave EN written permission to view my account to determine how these Notebooks kept appearing in my account.  I knew the Activily Log would reflect: I never opened the Notes, When & How the Notebooks were added to my account


 


Since the Notebooks remained in my account after several weeks had passed, I deleted the Notebooks & Notes from my account again as I described earlier.


 


September 2014


I am still waiting to hear how the Notes and Notebooks appeared in my account!  I have not had any more contact with EN Support since June 2014.  Since then, I have deleted most of the information in my EN account for many reasons, with the security breach being the most significant.

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Sigh. I so wanted to count on EN and was eagerly looking forward to when I could squeeze the admittedly small fee out of my vet bill exhausted budget. (Side note, if you are reading this and have younger, healthy fur babies, do NOT skimp on pet insurance. My vet swears by Truepanion. Seriously do NOT skimp on this. Having them live long lives is a blessing, but also damned expensive!)

Sorry, back on topic now. My thanks to GM, Sentinel and BNF for sharing this info with the rest of us. I'm glad to know that at least my fellow users care enough to shed light on these things...

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@Grumpymonkey

"I prefer it when companies clearly explain their thinking (transperancy), set reasonable expectations among users, and achieve them. There is actually more to the art / science of getting people to incorporate services into their lives, but this is a big start. Ambiguity, opacity, and mixed signals don't help endear me to products"

 

We may prefer it.  But this does not describe Evernote.  I was saddened by the response I got when I bought into Evernote and found problems here on the forums in basic issues like printing, formating etc.  

In this post, just one of many: https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/63966-presentation-mode-why-do-i-have-to-scroll-the-page-to-get-the-note-body/#entry293635 the commonly accepted "unofficial" view:

 

Evernote really don't (usually) comment on features that may or may not be in development.  Until they identify a possible feature they can't know whether it's technically feasible or not - unless it was a completely dumb*ss suggestion,  which yours isn't.  My only point is that they don't comment.  At all. And future development is always under wraps until they're ready for it to be released,  like Apple and every other software design house I can think of.  Same goes for Ford and car manufacturers,  Nikon and camera companies... 

 

The same with fixes.  Users just get ignored (generally). "We may know, but the fact that you have bought our product gives us no obligation to tell you what we are doing, planning to do or in any way be helpful"  There has been one exception where a staffer actually responded.  Kati.  This was great, and encouraging - Here: https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/64482-feature-request-presentation-mode-increased-font-size/?p=296668

 

Unfortunately this line of inquiry has died also, it's been passed on to someone and Kati didn't know any more.  She is 'hoping'.

 

Evernote was cool and classy in the past, had huge potential, but like the radicals of the 60's, grown up and become conservative, hidebound, less responsive, less relationship centred and more materialistic.  One person's view only.

 

SO: alternatives?  I will follow this thread with interest.

 

I have just simplified my life into  a small number of projects, each with a Google drive folder and the collaborators with permissions.  This takes care of part of the old Evernote needs.

 

-Derek

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I experienced the local notebook issue and view it different from this current problem. If I remember correctly (iffy) this crept into one of the early v5 betas. Back then I downloaded betas the day they came out. To Evernote's credit they jumped on that one fast. I received a PM from one of the developers and they worked with me until a fix was confirmed in a later beta. I don't think this problem ever existed on a GA version. My take away from that was I wait now and check forum reports before trying a new beta.

Remember those nice little icons we had to distinguish between local and sync'd notebooks? Well that was how I first noticed the problem. I noticed a local notebook had the sync icon next to it. Those very helpful icons have since been removed :(

Hi. Evernote never talked about it, so I don't know for sure, but my understanding is that the local notebooks went online in the regular app, not the betas. My point wasn't really to compare the bugs, but rather Evernote's response to them. We all make mistakes, we all stumble once in a while, we all have to make decisions that might be unpopular, and bad stuff happens; what matters is how we perform under adversity. A company that goes to great lengths to inform customers, even when it may not necessarily be legally obligated to keep them in the loop, is one I am more willing to trust than a company with an (apparently) perfect record.

I see a pattern of keeping information to themselves, perhaps because it is too much trouble to keep customers informed. The lack of official announcements concerning the mobile site, publicly shared notebooks, Food, and so forth are only the most recent examples. One day they are here. The next they are gone. It is extremely difficult to depend on Evernote, especially in a professional context. They have a blog, and they have this forum, so they have the outlets to deliver messages about changes, bugs, security problems, and other critical information that would keep customers informed. I don't know why they don't use them.

It's a little bit of a stretch, but I see the missing local notebooks icon as another part of this pattern of keeping information out of the hands of users. I don't know why, but rather than present complex information in an accessible manner (a challenge, to be sure) Evernote tends to prefer simply removing the complexity. At various times in the past, we've lost note counts, icons, control over the appearance of the interface, etc. I think someone figured the icon displaying whether a notebook was local or not was "clutter" in the interface and unnecessary. Many of us complained and said it was actually extremely helpful. But, it hasn't returned. It's OK. It's their design decision. But, often times, their decisions result in less and less information density -- lack of functionality instead of simplicity. We lose control over our stuff, and we cannot easily diagnose problems, because we lack the data necessary to do so.

I'm sure there are people who disagree with my assessment. And, maybe I am wrong about this pattern. That's just me speculating about the past. Going forward, Beta or GA, I want to see Evernote communicating better with its users -- we shouldn't have to piece together information about (what I consider to be) a major security breach (the data leaking from one account to another) out of a few forum posts by our fellow users. Evernote isn't doing anyone any favors by keeping us in the dark.

@derek

I am glad you pointed out the helpful staff post. There are lots of people at Evernote who have, at one time or another, modeled the kind of behavior I think Evernote needs. In general, though, I see Evernote (as a collective unit) to be increasingly less open about what is happening, and much less likely these days to communicate with its users. In the past, I doubt they would have abandoned a core feature like public notebooks without at least giving users a heads up. This is something that happens because of policies and corporate culture -- to keep the lines of communication open, Evernote needs to create an environment that fosters it.

It's too bad, but I think the lack of communication might be part of the process of moving from a start-up to IPO. No one wants to talk about a security problem at this point, but they also have to pare down the service, and they don't have time for discussions about it with users. They'll drop features, apps, and so forth whenever they deem it necessary, and users can either accept it or move on. Perhaps the lack of communication is simply inevitable.

@ All

I think it is OK to grouse about this or that concerning Evernote, but if we want to talk about alternatives (beyond just mentioning names of other services), I think we ought to carry the discussion elsewhere.

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A small diversion.  From the Onenote team.

 

 

One of the comments (on which I am not qualified to give an opinion: "Further proof that technology companies need more diversity.  Black folk would not have let this get out the door."

 

-Derek

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I think it is OK to grouse about this or that concerning Evernote, but if we want to talk about alternatives (beyond just mentioning names of other services), I think we ought to carry the discussion elsewhere.

 

 

Why?

 

Seems to me that there are benefits to both Evernote and its users (us) to discuss the shortcomings of Evernote here.

 

I think that most of us would prefer Evernote to fix the issues we have identified.  If we hide our concerns/alternatives, then Evernote might be less motivated to make the necessary changes.

 

There is a very old adage:  You can't fix a problem until/unless you identify it and acknowledge it.

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@GM:  I think this is the first time I have had any level of disagreement with you on anything you have ever said in this forum. I do see you point and somewhat agree.  However, I don't consider my posts as grousing.  Rather toward suffusing the issues.  In addition, I was asked to write my last post and with that, others may come forward as well.

 

If you or someone else creates another location to continue the search for alternatives to EN other than this post, please let me know!  I am extremely interested in the opinion of the group in this forum.  A great group of people!

 

Having said that, let me reiterate my desire to have EN be more stable on the core product.  I have many needs EN could fulfill, however, I find it prudent to keep any information out of EN, to include Lesson Plans, Investigative Research and even my work journal, which has only first names in it.  I consider those items only personal, not sensitive.  No one could really make heads or tales of some of the information without being able to place it in context.  Nonetheless, at this point, I am not even willing to trust EN employees with any of my information.  Back to that zero knowledge point you made earlier!

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@GM, you say: "I think it is OK to grouse about this or that concerning Evernote, but if we want to talk about alternatives (beyond just mentioning names of other services), I think we ought to carry the discussion elsewhere"

 

I'm OK to discuss things here, If it's not just pointless complaining.  If it is on the topic.  If there is potential to help EN.  Where else?

 

I was engaging with a multinational here last week.  This is what they said when I asked if they could get me a product of theirs in from Australia to buy and for me to trial:

 

This product is not available through COMPANY New Zealand and unfortunately we are not in a position to import one from COMPANY in Australia for a trial basis. As you can understand as with other industries not all products are available in all countries and this happens to be one of those products. We also have a strong support policy and warranty and are not able to bring in any products whether for trial or otherwise without being able to provide full support for them.

 

I asked if they could bring in a product from Aussie to trial recognising there would be no local service.  I asked how many sales are needed from my sector to make it worthwhile etc and they ignored all those aspects..  Never mind not meeting customer needs.  The comparison is with "other industries".  They provide "low level service" , it's OK for us to do the same.  Just like Gazumped compared EN behaviours to those of Apple .  :-)  No competition.  That's the problem.

 

GrumpyMonkey, my question is the same as JMichaels.  Why?  I respect anyone with 10,697 posts.  :-)

 

-Derek

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@ JM

- It seems inconsiderate to use the Evernote forum to discuss the ins and outs of leaving the service. It seems kind of like asking someone else out at your ex's apartment a few seconds after you broke up with them. See how emotionally attached I am to my note-taking software?

 

I've got no problem discussing what is wrong with Evernote, what is great about other apps, or what other options are available. This seems pretty helpful to Evernote users and maybe even to Evernote staff. Once it goes beyond that, though, it seems like it's best to take the discussion elsewhere -- a place with former users :) Of course, it's not against the forum rules or anything, so it's just my opinion!

 

@ Sentinel

- I'm the one grousing here. Sorry to imply anything else!

 

@ Derek

- 10,000 posts just means that I've spent a lot of time babbling here! People with single posts often have more relevant and helpful stuff to say than me. In this case, I'm just expressing my opinion about how far to take the conversation in this forum. I don't know where else would be good to go... That could be a weak point with my suggestion to move it elsewhere.

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@ JM

- It seems inconsiderate to use the Evernote forum to discuss the ins and outs of leaving the service.

I agree...

 

FWIW, although I've contributed to this thread, out of respect to Evernote, I think it's best to discuss some of the finer points of migrating away from EN NOT on their message board. I was hoping to look into someplace to do that but simply have not had the time. If anyone would care to research this & set something up & PM those who have publicly stated they are/may be interested in such a board, then that may be a more respectful way to share information. JMO.

I know there are some software message boards that will not allow posters to mention the name of competitive products & will edit your post, if you do.  (Coffeecup software is one.)  Evernote has never done this - they have always allowed other products to be mentioned.  However, discussing the finer points of migrating away from the service is quite different from simply mentioning other products or discussing the reasons one is leaving Evernote. 

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