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jlasiter

other Why I can't use Evernote for collaboration

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I collaborate with dozens and dozens of clients and colleagues on scores of projects per year.  Evernote COULD be the backbone of that collaboration process.  But it has one fatal flaw and I can't use it.

 

When I share a notebook to a non-Evernote Member they cannot participate in the collaboration.  It's "read-only".  That's a killer.  I cannot ask clients and colleagues to install software and join a service that *I* am forcing on them.  They would happily follow a link and participate from the website but I cannot ask them to join.

 

You should adopt a model like Dropbox whereby non-member users can use the service fully but cannot INITIATE new projects themselves without joining.

 

I could be introducing your product to hundreds of people per year.  Many of them would see the value in using it for their OTHER projects and THAT'S when they'd join - after they've seen the value and when they want to start using it to collaborate with others.

 

A read-only collaboration is of ZERO use to me when collaborating with my clients.

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I collaborate with dozens and dozens of clients and colleagues on scores of projects per year.  Evernote COULD be the backbone of that collaboration process.  But it has one fatal flaw and I can't use it.

 

When I share a notebook to a non-Evernote Member they cannot participate in the collaboration.  It's "read-only".  That's a killer.  I cannot ask clients and colleagues to install software and join a service that *I* am forcing on them.  They would happily follow a link and participate from the website but I cannot ask them to join.

 

You should adopt a model like Dropbox whereby non-member users can use the service fully but cannot INITIATE new projects themselves without joining.

 

I could be introducing your product to hundreds of people per year.  Many of them would see the value in using it for their OTHER projects and THAT'S when they'd join - after they've seen the value and when they want to start using it to collaborate with others.

 

A read-only collaboration is of ZERO use to me when collaborating with my clients.

 

First, EN is not really a collaboration tool for more than one reason.  One of the most prominent reasons is because two users cannot modify the same note, at the same time without someone's changes getting overwritten.  If you need a true collaboration tool, Evernote is not it. 

 

Second, if you have a premium account, you can share notes & notebooks with write permissions.

 

Third, many people seem to think their one missing "killer feature" would cause EN to become the be all/end all thing that will zoom EN from the current 60+ million users it has today, increase profits by a billion dollars in a month, etc. 

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"First, EN is not really a collaboration tool... "

 

Oddly, then, it offers invitee's the ability to collaborate on notebooks, but only after joining EN.  Seems like some form of collaboration to me.

 

Here's my issue.  When an invitee follows the link to a shared notebook they cannot contribute to it UNTIL they join EN.  There is a membership boundary placed at that point - you cannot contribute until you join.  I'm suggesting this limits the growth and usefulness of the EN product.  I won't ask my clients (my bosses) to jump through hoops in order to add notes and comments to my shared notebooks.  They simply won't do it and I won't ask.

 

If, however, I could let them add to shared notebooks simply by being invited (URL based without login) they would do it.  And they most likely would see the value of EN in time and then join when they themselves wanted to start sharing notebooks with others.

 

"If you need a true collaboration tool, Evernote is not it. "

 

The best uses of tools are the ones users invent themselves with the tools, not the pre-determined limited uses the product may have been intended for.

 

"Third, many people seem to think their one missing "killer feature" would cause EN to become the be all/end all thing that will zoom EN from the current 60+ million users it has today, increase profits by a billion dollars in a month, etc. "

 

and?  How is your opinion or value judgement on my comment germane to the discussion at hand?

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"First, EN is not really a collaboration tool... "

 

Oddly, then, it offers invitee's the ability to collaborate on notebooks, but only after joining EN.  Seems like some form of collaboration to me.

 

Here's my issue.  When an invitee follows the link to a shared notebook they cannot contribute to it UNTIL they join EN.  There is a membership boundary placed at that point - you cannot contribute until you join.  I'm suggesting this limits the growth and usefulness of the EN product.  I won't ask my clients (my bosses) to jump through hoops in order to add notes and comments to my shared notebooks.  They simply won't do it and I won't ask.

 

If, however, I could let them add to shared notebooks simply by being invited (URL based without login) they would do it.  And they most likely would see the value of EN in time and then join when they themselves wanted to start sharing notebooks with others.

 

"If you need a true collaboration tool, Evernote is not it. "

 

The best uses of tools are the ones users invent themselves with the tools, not the pre-determined limited uses the product may have been intended for.

 

"Third, many people seem to think their one missing "killer feature" would cause EN to become the be all/end all thing that will zoom EN from the current 60+ million users it has today, increase profits by a billion dollars in a month, etc. "

 

and?  How is your opinion or value judgement on my comment germane to the discussion at hand?

 

 

"some form of collaboration" does not equate to being a good collaboration tool. Continue to try to use it for collaboration if you choose to. But like I said, it's not really a good collaboration tool. I find trying to fit a square peg into a round hole frustrating & usually not productive. 

 

My comment regarding your "killer feature" is as pertinent to the discussion as yours.

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I would imagine it would be far worse for you if you customers (your bosses) started editing a note at the same time and then caused a mass of confusion. This is the reality of Evernote as a 'collaboration' tool.

 

I'd suggest that Google Apps or a wiki product like Confluence from Atlassian would be better suited.

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"I would imagine it would be far worse for you if you customers (your bosses) started editing a note at the same time and then caused a mass of confusion. This is the reality of Evernote as a 'collaboration' tool."

 

I don't understand this point.  an invitee can, as of now with the current EN, edit a shared notebook.  With all the mass confusion that may or may not cause.  Only, in order to do so, they must join EN.  My quibble is not with how the sharing function works.  It's only the requirement for a login and joining.

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If there were no restriction on who could edit your notes and how they could be edited,  your original notes would rapidly be overwritten with random comments and your premium upload limit for the month blown out of the water.  Some restrictions are required - and even Dropbox requires that you register to be able to share notes..  Whatever you're looking for Evernote would appear not to be it - and I don't think it has any great ambition to get there either.  Such major changes would be required to its database that it would become a different product.  Lots of investment in time and money..  so it can become a competitor in a market that already has some strong alternative established products..

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"If there were no restriction on who could edit your notes and how they could be edited"

 

The necessary restrictions are already part of the product.  I can share a notebook with anyone I want and give them the permissions I want.

 

Only they have to JOIN and Login in order to share the notebook.  Restrictions are not the issue.

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"I would imagine it would be far worse for you if you customers (your bosses) started editing a note at the same time and then caused a mass of confusion. This is the reality of Evernote as a 'collaboration' tool."

 

I don't understand this point.  an invitee can, as of now with the current EN, edit a shared notebook.  With all the mass confusion that may or may not cause.  Only, in order to do so, they must join EN.  My quibble is not with how the sharing function works.  It's only the requirement for a login and joining.

 

OK, so my advice is that Evernote is not a good tool for collaboration - whether you care about that or not is up to you.

 

As to the requirement for people to sign up for an Evernote account in order to edit, I'm guessing that this will not go away. Evernote are in the business of adding customers, they believe that the more customers they add and the longer they are retained the more likely they are to go Premium. 

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"As to the requirement for people to sign up for an Evernote account in order to edit, I'm guessing that this will not go away. Evernote are in the business of adding customers, they believe that the more customers they add and the longer they are retained the more likely they are to go Premium. "

 

I understand that.  It's central to my point.  There would be more potential for growth if the barrier was put up in a different place.  It would be better if my clients could collaborate with me on my notebooks (I'm guessing here that this is the purpose of shared notebooks in the first place) without being EN members.  

 

Require membership when they (my clients) want to start making their own notebooks to share with others.  That's how Dropbox grew so rapidly.  No login or membership was required to receive a file.  Only to send files...  So lots of people were exposed to the value of the product without hassle or cost, it makes more sense to monazite a customer at the point that they want to begin to send files rather than the more passive receiving of files. (n the case of Dropbox).  Likewise, invitees to EN should have no barriers - make it easy for them.  Later, when they have discovered the usefulness and want to start using the product to reach other collaborators, then require membership.

 

I get why EN has the paywall (or membership wall), it's just in exactly the wrong place.

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I collaborate with dozens and dozens of clients and colleagues on scores of projects per year.  Evernote COULD be the backbone of that collaboration process.  But it has one fatal flaw and I can't use it.

 

When I share a notebook to a non-Evernote Member they cannot participate in the collaboration.  It's "read-only".  That's a killer.  I cannot ask clients and colleagues to install software and join a service that *I* am forcing on them.  They would happily follow a link and participate from the website but I cannot ask them to join.

 

I understand your issue.  It's one I've face with every collaboration product I've ever used, the ease of sign-up or lack thereof, and requirement for a password limits participation.  However I'm at a loss to understand how you think it could function any other way?  Otherwise, there would be NO security, and ANYONE, including someone you didn't invite, merely by discovering that link, could go in and modify or delete content at will.  How would you propose EN not require a login or joining to fully access/modify content, and at the same time stop that from happening?

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"Otherwise, there would be NO security, and ANYONE, including someone you didn't invite, merely by discovering that link, could go in and modify or delete content at will."

 

Simple.  The invitee in the not logged-in state cannot erase anything only ADD to a notebook.  Add, notes, comments, etc.  I'm not too worried about graffiti because I would be sending the link to people I know and not posting it someplace.  

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Perhaps one method might

 

"Otherwise, there would be NO security, and ANYONE, including someone you didn't invite, merely by discovering that link, could go in and modify or delete content at will."

 

Simple.  The invitee in the not logged-in state cannot erase anything only ADD to a notebook.  Add, notes, comments, etc.  I'm not too worried about graffiti because I would be sending the link to people I know and not posting it someplace.  

 

I think you're overlooking that fact that hidden links can be discovered pretty easily.  I suppose one method that might make it easier for some people would be to allow a single sign on with Facebook or Google.  Not a cure all but it could work.

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This is such a narrow use case I think it's pretty safe to assume that it would never be implemented.

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another way would be to allow me to place a one-word password on the notebook without registration and usernames.  Which I could make as simple as I want.

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jlasiter...it seems that most of the responses missed your points.

 

For the record,

  • I agree with your points
  • nice solution(one word password)
  • it WOULD be in evernote's best interest( as described by a poster above) to allow users who are not familiar with evernote to get a better feel for it.
  • funny how "EN is not really a collaboration tool...." quickly changed to "oh yeah, it has collaboration but it's not good collaboration." hahaha
  • It's true, user ideas and input from users  =  a great way to add features to a product or service.

At any rate...

Think of Evernote as a box where people keep their stuff.

Some people are unable to think outside of that box. ;-)

 

Here is somewhat of a workaround to what you are trying to do.

 

Let's say you have a notebook called CLIENT

 

and inside that notebook you have a note you are working on for a particular client called Jones Project

 

You email  an EN link to that client as you normally would.

 

If the client would like to add comments, he can send an email to your evernote email which is unique to your account...see Account Summary in Account Settings next to Email Notes to in your account.

 

In that email your client would put Jones Project  @CLIENT in the beginning of subject line. 

 

It's a cumbersome solution, but nevertheless somewhat of a solution rather than the nonsense that someone that may clearly be off their anger management meds and/or who doesn't get out much may suggest. 
 

If you do not trust that the client can do this or if you think that it is too cumbersome, you can have the client email you the notes as usual to your email address...not the evernote email I mentioned above, and you can forward them to the appropriate notebook/note yourself.

http://blog.evernote.com/blog/2010/03/16/emailing-into-evernote-just-got-better/

 

Your feature would be a good addition to EN.

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jlasiter...it seems that most of the responses missed your points.

 

For the record,

  • I agree with your points
  • nice solution(one word password)
  • it WOULD be in evernote's best interest( as described by a poster above) to allow users who are not familiar with evernote to get a better feel for it.
  • funny how "EN is not really a collaboration tool...." quickly changed to "oh yeah, it has collaboration but it's not good collaboration." hahaha
  • It's true, user ideas and input from users  =  a great way to add features to a product or service.

At any rate...

Think of Evernote as a box where people keep their stuff.

Some people are unable to think outside of that box. ;-)

 

Here is somewhat of a workaround to what you are trying to do.

 

Let's say you have a notebook called CLIENT

 

and inside that notebook you have a note you are working on for a particular client called Jones Project

 

You email  an EN link to that client as you normally would.

 

If the client would like to add comments, he can send an email to your evernote email which is unique to your account...see Account Summary in Account Settings next to Email Notes to in your account.

 

In that email your client would put Jones Project  @CLIENT in the beginning of subject line. 

 

It's a cumbersome solution, but nevertheless somewhat of a solution rather than the nonsense that someone that may clearly be off their anger management meds and/or who doesn't get out much may suggest. 

 

If you do not trust that the client can do this or if you think that it is too cumbersome, you can have the client email you the notes as usual to your email address...not the evernote email I mentioned above, and you can forward them to the appropriate notebook/note yourself.

http://blog.evernote.com/blog/2010/03/16/emailing-into-evernote-just-got-better/

 

Your feature would be a good addition to EN.

Well, it really is true that Evernote is not really good for collaboration for the reasons I mentioned in post #2.  Especially if one is collaborating with "dozens & dozens" (OP's words) of others.  You propose a workaround that does indeed work & is also cumbersome (your term, which I agree is applicable.)  So I don't get why you feel the need to criticize the posts in this thread.  There really are better options for collaborating.

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1: Evernote has collaboration functionality, therefore it is a collaboration tool.

2: Evernote's collaboration functionality has limitations, as does any collaboration tool. You need to know what those limitations are to use it; it's not perfect for all situations.

3: To the fact that you need to be an Evernote customer (free or premium) in order to use Evernote's collaboration facilities is, well, too bad. It's Evernote's choice, at the moment. On the other hand, the barrier for entry to the Evernote world is pretty low, since you can use Evernote for free.

4: Since all of the collaboration-style sharing is done via the Evernote servers, sharing notebooks necessarily requires an Evernote client, since Evernote note content is ferried around in Evernote format. The proposed poor-person's-method, works after a fashion, but it's cumbersome and doesn't scale well at all, certainly not a solution for the original poster. Bypassing the Evernote servers would likely make Evernote collaboration worse, not better, since the servers are where the canonical notes are stored, and are a single point of change detection.

5: Since the "but Evernote could do X instead" straw man was raised up, sure, Evernote could. But what's the cost of that work and what's the payoff? Will they get more customers? Maybe, but they're doing pretty well at the moment (~80 million or so, so far). Maybe they've already considered it -- they're smart people, I'm guessing that they already have. Maybe they're planning something for the future, but we generally don't know what they're planning until very near the release.

Bottom line, in my opinion: the current requirement that a collaborator have an Evernote account seems reasonable, but maybe Evernote will take this on as a feature request -- they do read the forums.

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Evernote Apologists...We know Evernote is limited. Repeating that it is limited with an air of "that's how it was intended..so use something else" is not very helpful.

 

Straw man? "Bottom line, in my opinion: the current requirement that a collaborator have an Evernote account seems reasonable"  That's the straw man.

The ability for Collaboration without an evernote account for paid users to allow it is even more reasonable.

 

Citing that evernote has 80 million or so users...not most of them are paid accounts....in this day and age means NOTHING. In the early 2000s AOL had nearly 30 million PAID subscribers. They were bragging when they merged with Time Warner.

It all meant nothing. Here today and gone tomorrow. I believe it is because AOL lost their focus. Rather than giving their customers what they wanted and looking out for what the market was doing, they decided that they would give their users what AOL felt they needed. Now that may work temporarily by some companies like Apple, but that is the exception...not the rule.

 

Where's some of evernote's focus of late?

 

Here's an indication...  https://www.evernote.com/market/feature/socks?sku=SOCK00106

"So what", you say? Well, as it turns out...Evernote’s Market For Physical Goods Now Accounts For 30% Of Its Monthly Sales

That's splendid!, I think. 

 

Their market is generating about $1million a month in sales...If  that's roughly a third of their total sales, that means they make about $2 million a month in user subscriptions?

That's peanuts compared to their 80 +/- users.

 

Evernote CEO Phil Libin speaking at LeWeb 2013 holding up Evernote Post-its.

http://asset3.cbsistatic.com/cnwk.1d/i/tim2/2013/12/10/20131210_Phil_Libin_LeWeb_001_610x375.jpg

 

"People are trained to talk about business like sports, saying it’s a zero sum game. Being in a startup is less like boxing and more like playing music, less like warfare and more like art. Of course there are other competitors and players, but those interactions are not zero sum. If you suck at it, you’re going to fail. You’re not going to fail because someone is better than you. If you’re great, the other people in it will make you greater. Think of it less like baseball and more like playing in an orchestra.” CEO Phil Libin

 

Sorry, Mr Libin....Your chances of failing when someone else is better than you go up exponentially.  See Yahoo V Google.

 

In closing...I believe the premise of evernote is excellent...perhaps adding features that users would find the need to pay for would convert a larger percent of those free accounts into premium accounts and generate even more sales from the product, not the branding.  I have little against the branding, but I believe that by the time evernote can implement all of their good intentions into worthwhile paid features, someone else will eat their lunch. But I am of the belief that tech cos have a shorter and shorter lifespan. Phil Libin believes that evernote will be a hundred year old company. http://techcrunch.com/2011/11/06/evernote-ceo-phil-libins-top-three-tips-for-building-a-hundred-year-old-company/

 

Good Luck

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Evernote Apologists...We know Evernote is limited. Repeating that it is limited with an air of "that's how it was intended..so use something else" is not very helpful.

No apologies here. I repeated some things -- including the bit about limitation -- just to recap.

On the notion of "so use something else" -- it's not something I said or meant to imply, but since you bring it up, sure, since that's always the proposition with software (and any other product, for that matter). Asking for features is fine, but in the end, every user has to decide if the limitations of program X are worth it or not.

 

Straw man? "Bottom line, in my opinion: the current requirement that a collaborator have an Evernote account seems reasonable"  That's the straw man.

The ability for Collaboration without an evernote account for paid users to allow it is even more reasonable.

It's a straw man because it doesn't exist, and as a discussion point it's interesting, but it doesn't necessarily capture what would really need to happen to make it reality. My opinion: I don't believe that it's all that viable for Evernote to do, even though I believe that it's possible. And it's largely not necessary, since creating an Evernote account is free, plus a little effort.

 

Citing that evernote has 80 million or so users...not most of them are paid accounts....in this day and age means NOTHING. In the early 2000s AOL had nearly 30 million PAID subscribers. They were bragging when they merged with Time Warner.

It all meant nothing. Here today and gone tomorrow. I believe it is because AOL lost their focus. Rather than giving their customers what they wanted and looking out for what the market was doing, they decided that they would give their users what AOL felt they needed. Now that may work temporarily by some companies like Apple, but that is the exception...not the rule.

The subscription count was in the context of jlasiter's comment: "That's how Dropbox grew so rapidly". Point being that 80 million is nothing to sneeze at (or sneer at, I guess), while understanding that Evernote needs to keep focus, of course. Whether this particular issue is a major stumbling block towards further growth / success is an open question. I doubt that it is, mainly based some of the things I've already stated, plus the fact that I have never seen this issue brought up in the forums before, and I read a fair bit in the General and Evernote sections, and have for the last four years. Just my impression, though, that's all -- I do realize that the forum is not the only avenue that ideas / suggestions / issues get to Evernote..

I'll leave the armchair marketing analysis to others (my viewpoint / experience is from the software end of things). Short form: Evernote could do this, but I doubt that they will any time soon. Will this cost Evernote a lot of customers? Also doubtful, but even so, I believe that they'd gain *a lot* more customers if they strengthened their collaboration facilities. There's a bunch more call for that that I've seen than for the issue requested here.

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Jefito...

 

 

No apologies here. 

With all due respect...An apologist is not necessarily, if at all, someone who apologizes.

 

 

On the notion of "so use something else" -- it's not something I said or meant to imply

An other evangelist in this thread brought it up or implied it.

 

 

 every user has to decide if the limitations of program X are worth it or not.

and/or the user may make requests for particular features.

It isn't as simple as deciding which email client to use.

It's not easy to export the evernote data a user has developed over time into another program.

It is much easier to request features and hope that the developer implements them. This is not a novel concept, really.

 

 

It's a straw man because it doesn't exist,...

With all due respect...A straw man is not something that doesn't exist.

Although it has a couple of meanings...one in common speech and one in software development....

With the commonly used version of the term, it is you that made a straw man argument shortly after you mentioned a straw man.

 

 

 

since creating an Evernote account is free, plus a little effort.

 

You are missing the point of the OP entirely and further making a straw man argument.

 

 

 

The subscription count was in the context of jlasiter's comment: "That's how Dropbox grew so rapidly". Point being that 80 million is nothing to sneeze at (or sneer at, I guess)

 

Dropbox was founded in 2007 and depending on who you believe has revenues between $200 and $250 million in 2013

Evernote was founded in 2007 and will have made nearly 10% of that in 2013

As a company...Dropbox is profitable and evernote is bleeding money needing new capital infusions quarterly...sometimes monthly.

In comparison, I think you may want to reconsider if it's something to sneeze at.

The point, dropbox grew its base because , according to jlasiters OP, "You should adopt a model like Dropbox whereby non-member users can use the service fully but cannot INITIATE new projects themselves without joining."

 

 

 

 I believe that they'd gain *a lot* more customers if they strengthened their collaboration facilities. There's a bunch more call for that that I've seen than for the issue requested here.

 

THAT IS THE ISSUE REQUESTED HERE.

implementing jlasiter's request would strengthen collaboration.

 

The argument really is what would bring more users.

...anyone can collaborate or only those with accounts.

If you think the former, you're right...if you think the latter, then you defy logic.

To define a user...one doesn't have to be registered in order to be a user....

 

If the issue is which will bring more revenue, implementing  jlasiter's request for premium users would certainly bring in more premium users. If you doubt that then, again, you defy logic.

 

Should evernote do it? Sure.

Is it easy to implement? Who knows?

Will they? Possible.

Is it viable? In other words will it bring in enough revenue to make it worthwhile? On its own, maybe, maybe not. But you or I cannot determine that. 

 

Is it reasonable to request it?

Absolutely!

To suggest that a request will not propel Evernote into a greater business model and a greater product because Evernote is already high and mighty is UTTERLY RIDICULOUS. That's more directed to the other Evangelist than to you.

 

I already know what Evernote is. jlasiter is discussing what it's not and what it could be.

 

Is there a problem with that?

 

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An other evangelist in this thread brought it up or implied it.

Please quote when you are addressing specific statements. I have stated this often. I stand by my posts. Use the right tool for the job. I don't know why you are offended by this. Evernote (or any app) will never be the one app that everyone can use for everything. So yeah, if another app is more suitable, then use it.  I know for a fact if I were collaborating with "dozens & dozens" of people, I would elect to use a true collaboration tool rather then Evernote, even with your cumbersome workaround.  I don't see a problem with that. Actually, you're sounding more of an EN apologist than either Jeff or I.  (Please note the evangopologist thing in my tag line is sarcastic...culled from some other poster & I rather liked it.)

 

 

and/or the user may make requests for particular features.

It isn't as simple as deciding which email client to use.

It's not easy to export the evernote data a user has developed over time into another program.

It is much easier to request features and hope that the developer implements them. This is not a novel concept, really.

 

Absolutely it's fine to submit feature requests. But submitting a feature request does not automatically turn that into a "yes, it will be done". So what Jeff stated remains. Sure, it may not be as easy as selecting a browser or email client. But put on your big boy pants & decide if the app & its limitations are worth it for you or not. Again, "this is not a novel concept, really."

As far as comparing EN with Dropbox, they are different. Always have been & maybe/probably always will. Thank goodness for that. I use both & am a paid user of both for many years. But again...they are different. Just like I can't use the software I use to balance my bank accounts to develop my web pages.

 

 

I already know what Evernote is. jlasiter is discussing what it's not and what it could be.

 

Is there a problem with that?

It's been clearly stated that it's fine to make feature requests. But expecting a feature request to automatically be turned into "yes, thy will be done" is unreasonable. Evernote knows where they are going. They do listen to user feedback. But just because they don't implement what you want in the next 3 days doesn't mean they are not listening. As has been stated numerous times elsewhere on the board, it may be something they plan to implement someday...but there are higher priorities. (It would be silly for us users to make any determinations about what their priorities should be.) Or it may be something they have elected to not implement at all. Certainly their choice. Users debating these issues & debating their worthiness & debating whether features X, Y & Z are worthwhile/profit producing/easy to implement is simply pointless & a waste of time.

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and/or the user may make requests for particular features.

Sure, nobody's saying that it isn't. This being a user forum, ensuing debate and discussion shouldn't be a surprise, though, right? Is there a problem with that?

 

 

It isn't as simple as deciding which email client to use.

It's not easy to export the evernote data a user has developed over time into another program.

??? apropos something in this topic ??? collaboration ???

 

It is much easier to request features and hope that the developer implements them. This is not a novel concept, really.

Sure, but wishing doesn't make features magically appear. Features need to be identified as useful and reasonable to implement, and implementation isn't free. Me, I'm just not seeing it on this one, but Evernote would be the ones to make the decision on this one.

 I believe that they'd gain *a lot* more customers if they strengthened their collaboration facilities. There's a bunch more call for that that I've seen than for the issue requested here.

THAT IS THE ISSUE REQUESTED HERE.

implementing jlasiter's request would strengthen collaboration.

Uh, no. jlasiter's request is to just allow collaboration without use of an Evernote client. It does nothing to address the actual #1 weakness with Evernote's collaboration facilities, namely that of concurrent editing of notes. jlasiter's request *may* improve a different aspect of collaboration, but it's a pretty weak form of collaboration, one that lets you look at notebooks, and send in notes to be added. I'm with Metrodon on this -- I have a hard time believing that this represents what a lot of users want, and people who want to do real collaboration would be mightily unhappy if this were presented as the Next Big Thing in Collaboration.

 

The argument really is what would bring more users.

Actually, it's how many users and at what cost? Cost/benefit, right? You don't burn up a bunch of developer time just to claw in a few extra users from between the sofa cushions.

 

If the issue is which will bring more revenue, implementing  jlasiter's request for premium users would certainly bring in more premium users. If you doubt that then, again, you defy logic.

No, I doubt your assertion, which has not been proven yet, and therefore isn't logical.

 

 

Should evernote do it? Sure.

Only if the statements that follow make good business sense. Nobody here has shown that it does so far.

 

Is it easy to implement? Who knows?

Will they? Possible.

Is it viable? In other words will it bring in enough revenue to make it worthwhile? On its own, maybe, maybe not. But you or I cannot determine that. 

 

Is it reasonable to request it?

Absolutely!

At last. Yes, we agree on these statements. In fact, it's what I've been saying all along. The flip side: is it reasonable to question it?

Absolutely.

...and good luck...

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I don't know why you are offended by this.

I don't know where I indicate that I am offended. 

 

 

 

But submitting a feature request does not automatically turn that into a "yes, it will be done".

I don't know where either jlasiter nor myself indicated that a request would automatically be done. 

 

 

 

 

 But expecting a feature request to automatically be turned into "yes, thy will be done" is unreasonable. 

Again. I don't see where that is  our expectation.

 

It is a given that we would like to see a request, but because we said it doesn't mean it will be done by our will.

 

It has become evident to me that you just like to argue for the sake of arguing and because of that we have gone far off topic.

 

 

 

 

As far as comparing EN with Dropbox, they are different. Always have been & maybe/probably always will. Thank goodness for that. I use both & am a paid user of both for many years. 

 

It is not a comparison by feature request...it is a comparison by business model. Try and follow.

 

 

 

But again...they are different. Just like I can't use the software I use to balance my bank accounts to develop my web pages.

Where do you come up with this stuff? You say that as if it is enlightening.

Nobody suggested that dropbox has the same feature in application.

If you read the thread correctly, it is business model by gaining users.

 

 

 

Evernote knows where they are going.

So did AOL.

 

 

 

They do listen to user feedback.

It must be difficult for them in this thread. Thanks.

 

 

 

. But just because they don't implement what you want in the next 3 days doesn't mean they are not listening

 

Nobody requested something implemented in 3 days.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Repeating yourself incessantly on points that are off point and attributing things to a discussion that nobody said is a good indication of someone of whom logic escapes them and/or has no leg to stand on.(I'm leaning toward the latter.) 

 

 

 

 

 Users debating these issues & debating their worthiness & debating whether features X, Y & Z are worthwhile/profit producing/easy to implement is simply pointless & a waste of time.

So which is it...submitting feature requests is fine...or it's not? in one sentence you say they read the feedback, then in another you say it's a waste of time.

 

By the way, I disagree with you. I think feature requests and discussions thereof are not a waste of time.

I think Evernote should value our input. You reducing it to a waste of time is a travesty.

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I don't know why you are offended by this.

I don't know where I indicate that I am offended. 

 

 

 

But submitting a feature request does not automatically turn that into a "yes, it will be done".

I don't know where either jlasiter nor myself indicated that a request would automatically be done. 

 

 

 

 

 But expecting a feature request to automatically be turned into "yes, thy will be done" is unreasonable. 

Again. I don't see where that is  our expectation.

 

It is a given that we would like to see a request, but because we said it doesn't mean it will be done by our will.

 

It has become evident to me that you just like to argue for the sake of arguing and because of that we have gone far off topic.

 

 

 

 

As far as comparing EN with Dropbox, they are different. Always have been & maybe/probably always will. Thank goodness for that. I use both & am a paid user of both for many years. 

 

It is not a comparison by feature request...it is a comparison by business model. Try and follow.

 

 

 

But again...they are different. Just like I can't use the software I use to balance my bank accounts to develop my web pages.

Where do you come up with this stuff? You say that as if it is enlightening.

Nobody suggested that dropbox has the same feature in application.

If you read the thread correctly, it is business model by gaining users.

 

 

 

Evernote knows where they are going.

So did AOL.

 

 

 

They do listen to user feedback.

It must be difficult for them in this thread. Thanks.

 

 

 

. But just because they don't implement what you want in the next 3 days doesn't mean they are not listening

 

Nobody requested something implemented in 3 days.

Where do you come up with this stuff?

Repeating yourself incessantly on points that are off point and attributing things to a discussion that nobody said is a good indication of someone of whom logic escapes them and/or has no leg to stand on.(I'm leaning toward the latter.) 

 

 

 

 

 Users debating these issues & debating their worthiness & debating whether features X, Y & Z are worthwhile/profit producing/easy to implement is simply pointless & a waste of time.

So which is it...submitting feature requests is fine...or it's not? in one sentence you say they read the feedback, then in another you say it's a waste of time.

 

By the way, I disagree with you. I think feature requests and discussions thereof are not a waste of time.

I think Evernote should value our input. You reducing it to a waste of time is a travesty.

 

 

 

It's clear from your responses that you are not reading & comprehending.  So...rather than telling me to try to keep up, you may want to take your own advice.  Really nothing more to say here.

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??? apropos something in this topic ??? collaboration ???

Yes, your suggestion to use something else.

If his content that he wishes to use for collaboration is in evernote, it isn't as simple as suggesting that he use something else.

He has to export his content. It isn't as simple as switching say from outlook to thunderbird where the emails can be in either client.

 

 

 

Sure, but wishing doesn't make features magically appear.

????

Who is saying that wishing makes things magically appear?

Why are you and the other evangelist stuck on that?

That's like me saying "Just because you wish jlasiter use something else will not make him use something else. Talk about apropos.

 

 

 

Uh, no. jlasiter's request is to just allow collaboration without use of an Evernote client.

 

uh, no...jlasiter's request is to allow collaboration without registering.

This is how it would work. jlasiter would send his client a link and the client would be able to comment on it.

Ever use word or adobe pdf pro for collaboration on a particular word or pdf file? I use adobe pro and it shows who made what comments and when.

You act like we're talking about revamping the entire application.

 

 

 

No, I doubt your assertion, which has not been proven yet, and therefore isn't logical.

That's because you're stuck on REGISTERED users.

Obviously if people didn't have to register to use it, there would be an infinite amount of users being able to use it.

If you need proof of that rather than common sense, I can't help you, bud.

 

Good Luck to you se well.

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It's clear from your responses that you are not reading & comprehending.  ..............  Really nothing more to say here.

 

It is clear from that response that you are the one who has a reading and comprehension problem.

 

I really hope you mean about nothing else to say here...I've grown somewhat tired of trying to get through to you.

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My Troll alarms are ringing....

 

Agree to disagree and leave it at that....

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My Troll alarms are ringing....

 

Agree to disagree and leave it at that....

 

Funny, that's the way I feel about nearly every evangelist post in these forums, amazing that when someone responds to their nonsense they get labeled a "troll" for doing so.  Have no fears, I'm sure this "troll" will be driven off in no time once he/she sees that this thread is the norm for every single thread in this forum, and that he's wasting his time writing logical well thought out responses.

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Dropbox was founded in 2007 and depending on who you believe has revenues between $200 and $250 million in 2013

Evernote was founded in 2007 and will have made nearly 10% of that in 2013

As a company...Dropbox is profitable and evernote is bleeding money needing new capital infusions quarterly...sometimes monthly.

In comparison, I think you may want to reconsider if it's something to sneeze at.

The point, dropbox grew its base because , according to jlasiters OP, "You should adopt a model like Dropbox whereby non-member users can use the service fully but cannot INITIATE new projects themselves without joining."

Just catching up, but FWIW I'm not sure you have your numbers accurate there.

Evernote in a previous form was founded in 2004, but the current iteration as a web service got off the ground in the middle of 2008.

 

http://www.crunchbase.com/company/evernote

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Evernote

 

Funding:

 

I see 9 Funding rounds between 2006 and Nov 2012 for a total of $250 million.

Nothing in the last year.

Dropbox has raised $257 million over roughly the same period, but most of it in 2011 - Link

And Nov 2013 indicated that it's looking for $250 million in additional funding.

 

 

Back in mid 2011, Evernote had 425,000 premium customers (20-25 million annual revenue).  

Then added business accounts, and Physical goods (which now contributes to 30% of monthly revenue).

Doesn't sound like they're bleeding money, but it's difficult to know the burn rate on both sides.

What we can see is Dropbox on a spending spree (the mailbox acquisition alone was 100 million, and they bought 3 more companies after than in 2013).

On number of users, it sounds like Dropbox is north of 175 million, where-as Evernote is north of only 75 million.

 

On your point of growth through collaboration strategy, while Evernote is usable for sharing information, I don't find it a compelling collaboration platform at all yet.  That's not going to bring in droves of new customers.  It doesn't work that great between premium accounts, adding droves of free users isn't going to change the growth rate much.

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Just catching up, but FWIW I'm not sure you have your numbers accurate there.

It is difficult to find these number on companies that are not publicly traded, but your numbers are off as well. The outcome is the same.

 

 

 

 

 

I see 9 Funding rounds between 2006 and Nov 2012 for a total of $250 million.

It appears as though techcrunch is less thorough than you or I.

 

Just a quick search without trying to find every single round of financing...

According to this youtube interview with Phil Libin CEO
By 2010 they had raised $45.5M total
 
Evernote Raises $85 Million in Primary and Secondary Financing
Our Notes | 30 Nov 2012 | By Phil Libin
 
Evernote Raises $70 Million Financing
Our Notes | 03 May 2012 | By Phil Libin
 
Apr 19, 2012 
Recently named company of the year by Inc. Magazine, Evernote, a web, desktop, and smartphone app that aims to help you remember everything, has completed a new $100 million round of financing.
 
7.13.2011
Evernote announced their new $50 million round of
funding led by Sequoia Capital today. 
 

That's $350 million right there.

--------------------------------------------

Dropbox has $150 million in it's coffers and is talking about going public and is operating at a net profit.

 

Evernote CEO has stated it will not be in the black until sometime this year.2014

 

Dropbox is making MAKING over $200 million a year even if you take the lowest estimate.

Evernote, just this September STARTED making $3 million a month.

 

 

 

Evernote in a previous form was founded in 2004, but the current iteration as a web service got off the ground in the middle of 2008.

Yes, well that makes things look even worse in comparison to dropbox for evernote.

After further search...According to  wikipedia:
"Pachikov is a co-founder and board-member of a company which provides optical character recognition (OCR) and handwriting recognition to Lockheed Martin which packages processing machines for the US Postal Service.[1] In 2002, he founded and became chief architect of the application, services, and vision behind the Evernote line of services."
A whois on the domain name shows it was registered in 2000...it could have been just a registration.

 

 

 

while Evernote is usable for sharing information, I don't find it a compelling collaboration platform at all yet.

I agree..the new feature that jlasiter suggested, along with some other feature suggestions could make it compelling.

In time, perhaps longer than the next 3 days, Evernote may implement better collaboration.

Keeping my fingers crossed, but won't be holding my breath as long as I did for the due date feature.

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Evernote CEO has stated it will not be in the black until sometime this year.2014

 

Dropbox is making MAKING over $200 million a year even if you take the lowest estimate.

Evernote, just this September STARTED making $3 million a month.

Do you have links for those? I came up dry getting more recent revenue numbers.

 

Yes, well that makes things look even worse in comparison to dropbox for evernote.

After further search...According to  wikipedia:

"Pachikov is a co-founder and board-member of a company which provides optical character recognition (OCR) and handwriting recognition to Lockheed Martin which packages processing machines for the US Postal Service.[1] In 2002, he founded and became chief architect of the application, services, and vision behind the Evernote line of services."

A whois on the domain name shows it was registered in 2000...it could have been just a registration.

Not really. "EverNote" pivoted in 2007/2008. A pretty different thing architecturally and as a service offering (they even dropped the upper case "N" in the name ;) ). Evernote pivoted from a paid, even shrinkwrapped local client tool on windows, and palm pilots, and such, to a client/server freemium model which tool the tool with Somewhere here I have a post comparing the webpage through the years via archive.org and the product/service transition.

 

Still, just interesting data points. I don't think we can draw any comparative growth conclusions between completely different products.

Dropbox is a different solution, and in a lot of ways has a far lower deep think bar (as simplistic as Evernote is).  And companies on their growth journeys use various carrot and stick combinations for various reasons along the way.

 

If I were king for a day and got to choose which of the two companies to run, I'm pretty sure it would be Evernote.  There's just so much more room for articulate painting on that canvas in my mind.

But both could still easily stagnate and die as a simplistic tool that people moved on from.

 

Back to the original thread theme's though, my word, collaboration seems to be an inconceivably under-solved dogs breakfast.

And I do agree that Evernote needs to giddyup and take a better stand at tackling that.  And it will require them getting serious about the freemium model.

It should be painless for adhoc solutions around typical daily list/link/info/planning sharing in evernote.

Families/friends sharing gift lists, or party ideas, vacation planning, community project planning, etc.

That means getting in should be a simple sign-up.  Conversion to paid should be based on drinking the cool-aid and falling/jumping into the ecosystem.

Agreed that being functionally useful for common needs shouldn't be on the other side of the pay wall.  That should be reserved for "significantly used".

 

But as I've said, Evenote along with most tools in and around the space are not functionally useful for collaboration.

 

Google apps was perhaps the closest to that, but now even for small groups costs the same (while providing a whole lot more) as Evernote.

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Evernote CEO has stated it will not be in the black until sometime this year.2014

 

Dropbox is making MAKING over $200 million a year even if you take the lowest estimate.

Evernote, just this September STARTED making $3 million a month.

Do you have links for those? I came up dry getting more recent revenue numbers.

 

 

I do...I believe the in the black in 2014 comment was in the video I linked to above.

 

Re: EN revenue...

http://news.cnet.com/8301-1023_3-57615063-93/evernote-market-hits-$1-million-revenue-in-its-first-month/

"Evernote's online marketplace, for products like Fujitsu document scanners and Moleskine notebooks, reached $1 million in sales in its first month and now accounts for 30 percent of the company's revenue, Chief Executive Phil Libin said Tuesday."

 

If it's making a million in revenue in it's first month of opening it's market and it's about 30% of sales...that means that their co's. revenues are about 3.3 million.

 

re: dropbox revenue:

http://techcrunch.com/2013/11/19/if-dropboxs-2013-revenue-is-200m-an-8b-valuation-is-pretty-steep/

 

I didn't bring up dropbox...someone else did...and the reference wasn't about their service...it was their method of catering to users and the growth rate and revenue growth was in another league when compared to evernote. 

Evernote is searchable notes in the cloud. Dropbox is a file storage and sharing in the cloud. We realize that they are different...nobody other than the evangelists seem to think that the implication is that we think they perform the same service.

The implication is that dropbox is outperforming evernote and the OP seems to suggest, right or wrong, that one of the reasons is because dropbox offers a more simple method of sharing.

 

 

 

Still, just interesting data points. I don't think we can draw any comparative growth conclusions between completely different products.

 

Perhaps you are right, but OP laid the comparison and evangelists engaged it.

Although different products, they both allow you to share either a note or a file. 

They thing they have in common is that you are able to share.

According to the OP, dropbox does it better.

I was merely rebutting some of the snide remarks ...particularly from one of the evangelists.

 

 

Back to the original thread theme's though, my word, collaboration seems to be an inconceivably under-solved dogs breakfast.

And I do agree that Evernote needs to giddyup and take a better stand at tackling that.  And it will require them getting serious about the freemium model.

It should be painless for adhoc solutions around typical daily list/link/info/planning sharing in evernote.

Families/friends sharing gift lists, or party ideas, vacation planning, community project planning, etc.

That means getting in should be a simple sign-up.  Conversion to paid should be based on drinking the cool-aid and falling/jumping into the ecosystem.

Agreed that being functionally useful for common needs shouldn't be on the other side of the pay wall.  That should be reserved for "significantly used".

 

Well Said.

 

 

 

But as I've said, Evenote along with most tools in and around the space are not functionally useful for collaboration.

Yes....that's how all this started.

Even the OP knows that EN blows as a collaboration tool.

Hammering that point in is like engaging in an argument that goes something like this.

 

OP: I cannot rely on a car without airbags for safety.

 

Evangelist: A car is not made for safety. It is made to go from point A to point B. People seem to think that adding silly features like a radio, a horn and airbags will zoom the car from the millions of people who drive it to blah blah blah.

 

other evangelist: (I must defend evernote and the other evangelist. Must stick together no matter how ridiculous other evangelist argues.) Um, yeah Cars have seat belts, therefore it is safe. Since the Car should do X was brought up, the car could add airbags but at what cost? And how would they fit those airbags into the car? What, put them in the steering wheel?(scoff) Maybe car manufacturers already thought of putting airbags in cars. After all, they are smart people....and they do read the reports from Ralph Nader. 

 

Everno: Hey, OP...here's a workaround to your problem and don't pay any attention to those clowns.

 

savingsandloan-robber: Hey man...I smell a hobbit! I have the perfect solution, man.(bong noises) This will blow your mind, man. How about we all just agree to disagree, man. Yeah, man.  OK, man...I have to get ready for comic con...I'm going as Howard the Duck. Hope that helped and you deem me as useful.(bong noises)

-----------------------------------------

---------------------

That's how this thread reads.

 

The point is what evernote is not! That's what the OP started this with.

Reiterating what it is not and arguing with the OP in a condescending manner and taking it away from what the OP intended and taking it to completely illogical nonsense is unjust.

(not saying you are doing it...I think you're assuming that the evangelists were making a valid argument because they are evangelists.)

 

There was a similar discussion with regards to reminders and the same evangelist argued "Evernote is not for reminding. Use something else for that."

I can't begin to describe how idiotic that reasoning and that stance was.

 

And thanks to the efforts of other posters, evernote finally gave us reminders.

 

I'd imagine that when the first poster who requested attaching documents into evernote, the EE argued that same argument, again.

 

 

 

Google apps was perhaps the closest to that, but now even for small groups costs the same (while providing a whole lot more) as Evernote.

 

Google Keep is pretty cool. 

Not quite up to par, yet.

 

Believe it or not, much like the CEO, I want to see evernote around for another 100 years...with vast improvement over the next ONE year.

 

It's only a matter of time before evernote's lunch will be eaten at this rate of improvement.

 

In the meantime, I wonder if the OP left these threads and evernote altogether based on the frustration that he must have felt here.

 

We all know what evernote is and/or what it is not.

We all know what evernote is capable of.

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There was a similar discussion with regards to reminders and the same evangelist argued "Evernote is not for reminding. Use something else for that."

I can't begin to describe how idiotic that reasoning and that stance was.

 

And thanks to the efforts of other posters, evernote finally gave us reminders.

 

I'd imagine that when the first poster who requested attaching documents into evernote, the EE argued that same argument, again.

In the meantime, I wonder if the OP left these threads and evernote altogether based on the frustration that he must have felt here.

 

This is pretty funny because I've often thought it's a sad day for several of the evangelists each time a new feature is added.  It gives them one less thing to tell users "Evernote is not for that".  Several of the things Phil Libin mentioned will be being added in his interviews are such features, ones that have been endlessly requested (task management for instance).

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One good way to get a rise out of the Evangelists is usually to slam their prejudice and arrogance,  though I don't recall ever seeing one of the team commenting that any poster had a really dumb idea.  And there have been a few.  

 

We try to be unfailingly polite to others on the board - mostly. Sadly there are others who don't seem to have the same good manners.  (If you do find someone's posts objectionable,  there's always a 'report' option to flag it for the Admins)

 

Another is to cite our slavish adoration of all things Evernote,  which is odd because I think Evernote still sucks as a collaboration tool and a to-do application.  I use other software.  I'd also like to see a much better note editor,  tag manager and richer search features;  but the fact is that most of these things,  while they may be in development,  are not available at present. Which is why I tend to observe to new posters that there are (currently) probably better ways to do things.  Other options have already been suggested at the top of this thread.

 

Evernote is always developing new ideas,  and no doubt it will catch up with most peoples demands in due course.  Since none of us in this user forum are employed by Evernote in a managerial capacity,  and don't have any major stock holdings,  I doubt that impassioned postings are going to have any great effect on their immediate future plans.  They already know what's wrong (in their view) and have plans in place to fix it;  which is probably going to take a few weeks or months to work its way through to releases.  Personally I'm going to wait and see what happens.

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One good way to get a rise out of the Evangelists is usually to slam their prejudice and arrogance,  though I don't recall ever seeing one of the team commenting that any poster had a really dumb idea.  And there have been a few.  

 

We try to be unfailingly polite to others on the board - mostly. Sadly there are others who don't seem to have the same good manners.  (If you do find someone's posts objectionable,  there's always a 'report' option to flag it for the Admins)

 

Another is to cite our slavish adoration of all things Evernote,  which is odd because I think Evernote still sucks as a collaboration tool and a to-do application.  I use other software.  I'd also like to see a much better note editor,  tag manager and richer search features;  but the fact is that most of these things,  while they may be in development,  are not available at present. Which is why I tend to observe to new posters that there are (currently) probably better ways to do things.  Other options have already been suggested at the top of this thread.

 

Evernote is always developing new ideas,  and no doubt it will catch up with most peoples demands in due course.  Since none of us in this user forum are employed by Evernote in a managerial capacity,  and don't have any major stock holdings,  I doubt that impassioned postings are going to have any great effect on their immediate future plans.  They already know what's wrong (in their view) and have plans in place to fix it;  which is probably going to take a few weeks or months to work its way through to releases.  Personally I'm going to wait and see what happens.

 

:P

 

I no longer read most posts by some users (THANK YOU FOE LIST!)  since there are a few who's main motivation for "being here" is to slam evangelists.  The funny thing is the evangelists tirelessly try to help users & those who "live to slam evangelists" have posted preeeety much nothing to help others.  Ok, maybe a post here or there. But given over half their posts are targeting evangelists & only a tiny portion of their posts actually help other users, it's pretty clear they have an agenda & very clear what it is.  We get slammed for saying EN sucks as a collaboration tool (my thoughts exactly) and we get slammed when we say something that EN does that's nice.  (IE, in my case, I have no aversion to the new UI - so sue me.)  Damned if we do & damned if we don't.  And...it's clear to EN who these "constant complainers"  & their minions are.  They think they own the board & simply b/c they complain about something, that EN should follow their lead.  Well guess what?  They don't own the board & EN may or may not agree with their complaints.  So as for me, I will continue to help those who come to the board for help.  And I will continue to ignore (mostly) those who have an agenda & correct them when they provide incorrect information. They simply are not worth my time. 

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Suddenly I'm getting notices when this thread is updated.  Anyone know how to turn that off?  At any rate, I had no idea this thread carried on as it did.  Yikes.  My overall impression is that this is a pretty dysfunctional "community" with a lot of ego involvement.  My human to human advice would be to take a step back, re read this thread and think about how much is actually useful dialog and how much is just sparring and chest-beating.  Is that really a good investment of your time?  The essence of helping someone is kindness, not criticism.

 

Not that I was asking for help in the first place.   My initial post didn't request help, it was a feature request.  My suggestion for the future would be that when next you see a feature request, say nothing unless you are trying to HELP refine, clarify or build upon the request. Why would I, or anyone else, be interested in why an "evangelist" thinks my feature request is all wet?   

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Suddenly I'm getting notices when this thread is updated.  Anyone know how to turn that off?

There should be a little button up at the top right that says "Unfollow this topic". Click that.

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The funny thing is the evangelists tirelessly try to help users.

 
 
I would hope so...and to those who do, thank you!! Thank you!! Thank you!!
 

 

 

...I will continue to help...

 

 
As evidenced by this thread?
The OP said "Why would I, or anyone else, be interested in why an "evangelist" thinks my feature request is all wet?"
That says it all. 
 
 

 

 

it's pretty clear they have an agenda & very clear what it is. 

 

Laughable... Gosh forbid that one considers that the content provided is not helpful in many cases. 

 

The car/airbags scenario in a previous post  in this thread very simply illustrates the weakness that these boards have.

 

In closing...some of us might try to sharpen up on our people skills....take the time to understand the objective and the point of the OP rather than offering counterproductive and obvious responses.

 

I suspect that many of the evangelists are helpful.

 

Take care.

 

 

 

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