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Bradley Chambers

mac (Archived) View missing in 5.1.1

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I am one of the ones that loves the new vertical view and requested it, however I never dreamed it meant users who preferred horizontal view would have to lose that, and wish they hadn't.  BTW, I find some of the posts in this forum sort of half-directing blame at complaining users for not knowing the road map and not speaking up to be one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on a forum :).

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Thanks for posting the link to download the older version with horizontal view. I'm rolling back to it until it returns to the Mac version. I can do without reminders in exchange for getting the horizontal list view back.

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I also would like the old view back. As someone who works with Evernote only taking up half of my horizontal screen the new view is just not useable at all. Will be reverting back to the older version until this is fixed.

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I am one of the ones that loves the new vertical view and requested it, however I never dreamed it meant users who preferred horizontal view would have to lose that, and wish they hadn't. BTW, I find some of the posts in this forum sort of half-directing blame at complaining users for not knowing the road map and not speaking up to be one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on a forum :).

Hi. That would be me you are talking about? If so, I don't blame anyone for anything. In fact, I did speak up for horizontallers and the view still went away. It's not anyone's fault. It was a design decision that was probably made with a lot more factors in mind than we have at hand, and maybe if I had been in the meetings, I would have agreed. Who knows? At any rate, I encourage users to speak up any time, because the developers need to hear from you.

I simply said that if you care about something enough that you would miss it if it were gone, then let someone know before it is gone. This goes for people and apps. Even if you communicate and they know, it might not change the end result, but at least they will know your thoughts and consider them. Is that so bizarre?

In fact, I just got a five year anniversary email from Evernote asking for feedback about how the service has affected me. Evernote is reaching out because it wants to know your thoughts. Is that so bizarre?

Don't wait five years, though, to share your thoughts with people. Send an email and let the developers of all your favorite apps know what you like/dislike. It only takes a few minutes and could make a big difference. That's my advice. If it seems too bizarre, then feel free to disregard it :)

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Hi guys, thanks for the feedback! As GM said, we did post awhile ago asking about any Horizontal List View fans and were expecting a backlash when we made the decision to remove Horizontal List View as a view option. 

 

If you guys haven't heard yet, this morning we released a major new feature (#1 user request) of Reminders (http://blog.evernote.com/blog/2013/05/23/evernote-reminders-are-here-on-mac-ios-and-web-2/) and in doing so, had to make a difficult UI/design choice of taking Horizontal List View out in designing the appearance and function of Reminders.

 

We had many users requesting a Vertical List View and it fit in well with our overall new Reminders UI. 

 

Would you guys have preferred to keep Horizontal List View over Reminders or vice versa? If so, why or why not?

 

I use the Vertical View (in Windows) 100% of my time.

http://www.evernote.com/shard/s2/sh/02fe1465-6575-4d38-a7f9-a1cf8dbb40a2/fc8843b5aab0586e9164fee42533ada4

 

But...

I don't recall seeing any ultimatum from Evernote that it was going to be one version or the other.

 

Haven't seen much in the Reminder launch that couldn't also been done with the simple Due Date field.

And that would have prevented this Judgment of Solomon decision to kill off one of the views.

 

Search Code 47ER92 - I believe this is at least my 32nd post requesting the Due Date field.
.

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I can only second the required return of the horizontal view. Evernote is a note-taking and -reading app first and foremost, and confining especially saved webpages to a mere slit breaks any user experience for me. Same for writing texts in Evernote. You know, some of us write long paragraphs and texts, not only bullet point lists? The vertical view doesn't do the note pane justice, nor the list pane.

 

I will downgrade to 5.0.7 as so many others until an option for the horizontal view is back. Reminders - OK, nice new feature. But please don't break the app for me because of them. And I am saying this as a paying and previously extremely happy customer... :-(

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Just to add my voice to the chorus of those BEGGING for the Horizontal List View to be added back... I've been a Premium user and huge Evernote fan for years, I basically live inside it all day long for research/writing/project planning and this forced switch to Vertical List View has COMPLETELY AND UTTERLY wrecked my workflow and productivity. I don't care about reminders one way or the other, but if the Horizontal List View is not added back, I will be forced to consider canceling my Premium membership and checking out other products - which I really don't want to do! So disappointing, Evernote.

In the meantime I guess I'm going to try to downgrade to 5.0.7, but please please please add it back to the next/future versions...

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Evernote team is notorious for coming up with bad design ideas. So now Evernote itself goes on my list of "Never to be updated" applications after Skitch. :(

(I'm keeping a newer copy on the machine that I rarely use, to check up on the updates, but so far things are not any better.)

 

@GrumpyMonkey I'm using about 200 different applications. Are you suggesting that I must go to every single vendor forum and keep track of what's going on there? Really, I have lots of far more important things to do. 

Don't forget that programs are just a tools (like hammer or screwdriver) that help us to do what we need to do. There is no program that has a value of its own.

Should I keep up with each vendor and _preventively_ post "Please don't break the good tool you've created"? Moreover, should I try to imagine every possible way of ruining it and post "don't do this" or "don't do that"?! That's ridiculous!

 

I would not suggest to developers what to do, just note that this is not first time when something is wrong with your design. Maybe you should hold designer responsible once in a while?

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I am one of the ones that loves the new vertical view and requested it, however I never dreamed it meant users who preferred horizontal view would have to lose that, and wish they hadn't. BTW, I find some of the posts in this forum sort of half-directing blame at complaining users for not knowing the road map and not speaking up to be one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on a forum :).

Hi. That would be me you are talking about? If so, I don't blame anyone for anything. In fact, I did speak up for horizontallers and the view still went away. It's not anyone's fault. It was a design decision that was probably made with a lot more factors in mind than we have at hand, and maybe if I had been in the meetings, I would have agreed. Who knows? At any rate, I encourage users to speak up any time, because the developers need to hear from you.

I simply said that if you care about something enough that you would miss it if it were gone, then let someone know before it is gone. This goes for people and apps. Even if you communicate and they know, it might not change the end result, but at least they will know your thoughts and consider them. Is that so bizarre?

In fact, I just got a five year anniversary email from Evernote asking for feedback about how the service has affected me. Evernote is reaching out because it wants to know your thoughts. Is that so bizarre?

Aside fr

Don't wait five years, though, to share your thoughts with people. Send an email and let the developers of all your favorite apps know what you like/dislike. It only takes a few minutes and could make a big difference. That's my advice. If it seems too bizarre, then feel free to disregard it :)

 

sorry but that's the most idiotic thing i've ever heard. You are seriously suggesting that for every application we use, we should ensure that we let the author know every feature we would not like to be removed in future? Is that actually what you are saying? Aside from that being completely impractical and just entirely completely the wrong mindset let alone approach, often users won't know how much they have come to rely on something until it's gone. Basic functionality is assumed to be a core pillar of a product. If you change something quite fundamental that affects so many users, and the whole usability of the product, to the point where users are downgrading, talking about stopping using the product entirely you MUST rethink. I don't think most of the affected users ever thought something like this would change, because authors just don't do this type of thing. It isn't something a user might expect to happen. Someone needs to go and read the usability hall of shame, before they end up on it. 

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At a quick glance through this thread, it seems that a number of the people upset about the loss of the vetical list view are using Evernote for something it wasn't really designed to do: handling a complex task management system like GTD. In cases like that, what GM is suggesting makes perfect sense. If you are using a program in a non-standard way, especially one that changes as frequently as Evernote, it does behoove you to let the developers know how you use the program. Any program I use frequently that isn't by some huge company, I provide suggestions and feedback to regularly, especially if it's a free program. I tell the developers what I like and what I'd like to see and, what I don't like. The result is that, for a number of programs by small outfits, I actually get consulted about future changes. This takes me less than an hour a month.

I also give feedback to the local cafe I frequent and the small local market where I shop.

Best of luck.

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Just updated and saw the disaster. Please bring the Horizontal list view back. It is necessary to correctly read note titles with dates. I use Evernote for a lot of things, a lab notebook being a part of it. I have > 1200 notes right now and need some details in the list view (full titles, dates created/modified) that the vertical list view can't display on my monitor. Next thing I'll do after writing this is revert to 5.0.x.

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At a quick glance through this thread, it seems that a number of the people upset about the loss of the vetical list view are using Evernote for something it wasn't really designed to do: handling a complex task management system like GTD. In cases like that, what GM is suggesting makes perfect sense. If you are using a program in a non-standard way, especially one that changes as frequently as Evernote, it does behoove you to let the developers know how you use the program. Any program I use frequently that isn't by some huge company, I provide suggestions and feedback to regularly, especially if it's a free program. I tell the developers what I like and what I'd like to see and, what I don't like. The result is that, for a number of programs by small outfits, I actually get consulted about future changes. This takes me less than an hour a month.

I also give feedback to the local cafe I frequent and the small local market where I shop.

Best of luck.

 

great so now "it's because you're using it wrong". The application is for note-taking, and i use it for taking notes. The list, surprisingly, is a list of notes. So, tell me what I'm doing wrong in that then? This thread is turning into a complete farce. My opinion is that reminders are nothing to do with note-taking. It's an additional feature. The core functionality of note taking is still there, but Evernote has made the core purpose of the product significantly more difficult to use for many people. It really is as simple as that, and there is no sensible justification. There might be a technical reason, but to be honest - I don't care about it. Reminders are of no interest to me, and I am sure many others; but it's not even about that - a peripheral feature has been introduced at the detriment of core functionality, and that is just poor. 

 

You're also getting confused about giving feedback. I don't tend to spend an hour talking through the menu with my local cafe, and giving my views on which meals enjoy and wouldn't want them to take off the menu, whilst a huge queue builds behind me of people wanting to do the same. Obviously that's ridiculous and impractical - but that's essentially what's being said here. In a cafe, if something is good, I will say so and tip (in the UK tipping is not expected, and is purely based on merit), and if something is bad I will complain. This thread IS the complaint. So Evernote - my food was cold - what are you going to do about it? Oh it's my fault because I asked for the wrong meal, or because I failed to tell you I really wanted something you've taken off the menu, or now - because i'm eating it wrong. 

 

This thread started as product feedback, but the some of these responses coming out of the woodwork are considerably more annoying than even the list thing is. 

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I am one of the ones that loves the new vertical view and requested it, however I never dreamed it meant users who preferred horizontal view would have to lose that, and wish they hadn't. BTW, I find some of the posts in this forum sort of half-directing blame at complaining users for not knowing the road map and not speaking up to be one of the most bizarre things I've ever seen on a forum :).

Hi. That would be me you are talking about? If so, I don't blame anyone for anything. In fact, I did speak up for horizontallers and the view still went away. It's not anyone's fault. It was a design decision that was probably made with a lot more factors in mind than we have at hand, and maybe if I had been in the meetings, I would have agreed. Who knows? At any rate, I encourage users to speak up any time, because the developers need to hear from you.

I simply said that if you care about something enough that you would miss it if it were gone, then let someone know before it is gone. This goes for people and apps. Even if you communicate and they know, it might not change the end result, but at least they will know your thoughts and consider them. Is that so bizarre?

In fact, I just got a five year anniversary email from Evernote asking for feedback about how the service has affected me. Evernote is reaching out because it wants to know your thoughts. Is that so bizarre?

Aside fr

Don't wait five years, though, to share your thoughts with people. Send an email and let the developers of all your favorite apps know what you like/dislike. It only takes a few minutes and could make a big difference. That's my advice. If it seems too bizarre, then feel free to disregard it :)

 

sorry but that's the most idiotic thing i've ever heard. You are seriously suggesting that for every application we use, we should ensure that we let the author know every feature we would not like to be removed in future? Is that actually what you are saying? Aside from that being completely impractical and just entirely completely the wrong mindset let alone approach, often users won't know how much they have come to rely on something until it's gone. Basic functionality is assumed to be a core pillar of a product. If you change something quite fundamental that affects so many users, and the whole usability of the product, to the point where users are downgrading, talking about stopping using the product entirely you MUST rethink. I don't think most of the affected users ever thought something like this would change, because authors just don't do this type of thing. It isn't something a user might expect to happen. Someone needs to go and read the usability hall of shame, before they end up on it. 

 

I don't think it is idiotic to provide occasional feedback to developers. In fact, I think it is better for me to provide feedback before something unpleasant happens rather than after it does. My litmus test is: if I would miss it if it was gone, I try to mention how important it is to me. Is that really so idiotic? I don't have strong feelings about all kinds of features, including the horizontal list view, so I don't talk much about those. There are other features I am quite opinionated about, and I make sure the developers know I care about them. 

 

The developers might have a different opinion than me, and decide to remove or change something, but at least they know. In the case of the horizontal list view, I spoke out against removing it long ago when the idea of a vertical list view was first floated. Perhaps, if other horizontallers had spoken up earlier, then this would not have happened. I don't know, but not providing feedback while expecting developers (not just at Evernote, but anywhere) to know how much you like a feature will probably result in more unpleasant surprises in the future. 

 

Maybe you have a couple hundred applications / features that you would miss if they were gone, like Vile who posted above you. If so, then my advice is impractical. In that case, please feel free to disregard it. You can also change the settings in your account to "ignore" my posts if you find them so annoying. 

 

As I said before, in this thread and others, I hope everyone will continue to provide feedback whenever and however they can. I also agree that the horizontal view ought to be in the app as well, even though I don't plan on using it, and much prefer the vertical one. In my opinion, having several options to fit different use cases is a good thing. 

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Evernote team is notorious for coming up with bad design ideas. So now Evernote itself goes on my list of "Never to be updated" applications after Skitch. :(

(I'm keeping a newer copy on the machine that I rarely use, to check up on the updates, but so far things are not any better.)

 

@GrumpyMonkey I'm using about 200 different applications. Are you suggesting that I must go to every single vendor forum and keep track of what's going on there? Really, I have lots of far more important things to do. 

Don't forget that programs are just a tools (like hammer or screwdriver) that help us to do what we need to do. There is no program that has a value of its own.

Should I keep up with each vendor and _preventively_ post "Please don't break the good tool you've created"? Moreover, should I try to imagine every possible way of ruining it and post "don't do this" or "don't do that"?! That's ridiculous!

 

I would not suggest to developers what to do, just note that this is not first time when something is wrong with your design. Maybe you should hold designer responsible once in a while?

+1

 

I had just upgraded to v5 three weeks ago because of all the problems with the original half dozen versions of v5.  Now another downgrade to recover from the latest "update".  There could at least have been enough transparency to tell us that with the new features, came elimination of an existing one so we could skip the "upgrade".

 

The core technology of EN is so good, but the UI designers are a disaster.  Horizontal displays had to be sacrificed for Reminders?  Really?  That's the extent of the creativity in the design staff?  You can't have both and a good UI?  Chew gum and walk?

 

And what product manager could possibly think that a note posted on a forum is a good way to survey the entire user community with regard to the choice of Reminders or Horizontal displays?  Like many, I only come here when I've got a problem, not as part of my daily routine.

 

Back to 5.07 and I swear I'm never being suckered into another update. 

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great so now "it's because you're using it wrong".

Please do not ascribe things to me that I never said. I referred to people who used the program in a way that it wasn't designed to be used. There was no judgement on right or wrong. Those people have the most to benefit by giving feedback to the developers. It's fairly obvious the developers didn't view this particular view as a core feature. Maybe if they had known how many users did, they might have made different choices. Or maybe not.

And don't be silly. I don't spend an hour giving feedback at a cafe while a queue builds up behind me. I wait until the owner has a minute, exchange greetings and mention something if I have something to mention. Just like with software developers, someone who knows I appreciate their work is more likely to listen to me when I have an issue. When I have a problem with a piece of software, I drop a quick line. What does that take, two minutes? Occasionally more if it's something really important. In both cases, I get better service, learn interesting things, make a few friends and generally improve the quality of my life.

Should you prefer to assume that everyone views things the way you do or knows what you want without asking, I think you will continue to be disappointed.

Best of luck.

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megsaint brought up an important point. As far as how the program is designed, it is fairly flexible (by design), but we often shoehorn it into our own use cases, and that is why communication is so crucial.

I am pretty sure I am in many ways an edge case and not very representative in my use, so some UI changes impact me dramatically, but seem to affect hardly anyone else.

Combining joined and personal notebooks while removing note counts (and not combining them while removing note counts in iOS), for example, caused me considerable consternation, and I had to radically change how I used my account. Ironically, I had joined with others and asked for the change!

But, I don't think I explained my use case well. The developers are not mind readers, and it helps us and them to give feedback whenever we can. The more detail you give about the stuff that matters to you, the better.

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I add my voice to those requesting user choice in whether the list view is horizontal or vertical. The vertical view, for my use, is an immense waste of real estate. I don't need a long list of notes to be always showing, most of which are not relevant to the current note, and which a) reduce real estate for the current note, and B) only show a few list headings. 

 

I'm not sure who dreamed this display up in what is otherwise and excellent product. I'm also not sure why Evernote chose to make list display choices non-configurable. Are notifications really a good excuse for this? My sense is that the developers all sit at desks with 20 inch displays, and are not in tune with many (maybe most) users who are using 13" displays on macbooks.

 

Come on, evernote team, this is a serious design error. Don't defend this when you know it's wrong - give us back the views that we need. 

 

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I used the horizontal list view exclusively as I use my laptop with Evernote taking up half the screen and the other apps I'm using on the other half. The vertical list view is comically unusable like this and also makes the main note window too thin and narrow.

 

That is, vertical list view is designed for people with very large screens or who use over 75% of the width of their screen for Evernote. I'm not one of these people :(

 

Please bring back the horizontal list view.

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I add my voice to those requesting user choice in whether the list view is horizontal or vertical. The vertical view, for my use, is an immense waste of real estate. I don't need a long list of notes to be always showing, most of which are not relevant to the current note, and which a) reduce real estate for the current note, and B) only show a few list headings. 

 

I'm not sure who dreamed this display up in what is otherwise and excellent product. I'm also not sure why Evernote chose to make list display choices non-configurable. Are notifications really a good excuse for this? My sense is that the developers all sit at desks with 20 inch displays, and are not in tune with many (maybe most) users who are using 13" displays on macbooks.

 

Come on, evernote team, this is a serious design error. Don't defend this when you know it's wrong - give us back the views that we need. 

 

Hi. About the vertical list view, I was one of the many people who have been asking for it, and it is pretty much exactly what I wanted, so I wouldn't say it is poorly designed. The list view is, in fact, configurable. See my post here for screenshots (http://www.christopher-mayo.com/?p=106). I think it could be clearer how this is accomplished, and I have made my own amateur suggestions along those lines, but that is perhaps something we will see in future iterations. 

 

By the way, on my 11" MBA it looks great. That is my use case, though. Yours might well be totally different, and that is why I also agree that we need a horizontal list view. In fact, I'd also like to see a Snippet view like the one on the iPad that is more configurable, and more categories.

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If you are using a program in a non-standard way, especially one that changes as frequently as Evernote, it does behoove you to let the developers know how you use the program.

 

I knew it was their fault somehow!  They were using it in a non-standard way!  (shakes head in disbelief that you are serious)

 

BTW, I like to use EN to record take pictures of orgies on my cell phone and quickly add notes, so the "take a pic and add a note to it" is an important feature to me.  Development team, please hereby take notice, I am using your application in a non-standard way and don't want to lose the ability to take orgy pics and attach notes to them.

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If you are using a program in a non-standard way, especially one that changes as frequently as Evernote, it does behoove you to let the developers know how you use the program.

 

I knew it was their fault somehow!  They were using it in a non-standard way!  (shakes head in disbelief that you are serious)

 

BTW, I like to use EN to record take pictures of orgies on my cell phone and quickly add notes, so the "take a pic and add a note to it" is an important feature to me.  Development team, please hereby take notice, I am using your application in a non-standard way and don't want to lose the ability to take orgy pics and attach notes to them.

 

As megsaint and I already explained, this isn't a blame the user statement. I use Evernote in a non-standard way as well. A lot of us have use cases for the app that the developers simply couldn't imagine, because they use it differently than we do. Here is where the forums, support tickets, and feedback come in handy.

 

If you tell them how you use it (it appears you already have with your example of a photo+note, and I think that fits well within the current parameters of the app), it will provide them with the data they need in designing the next iteration.

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I use Evernote in a non-standard way as well. A lot of us have use cases for the app that the developers simply couldn't imagine, because they use it differently than we do. Here is where the forums, support tickets, and feedback come in handy.

 

If you tell them how you use it (it appears you already have with your example of a photo+note, and I think that fits well within the current parameters of the app), it will provide them with the data they need in designing the next iteration.

I would use the phrase "use Evernote in a way it wasn't designed to be used" rather than "use Evernote in a non-standard way". Either way, this is not a "blame the user" statement, it's just a recognition that designers' intent isn't always apparent, and sometimes users will do things that designers don't intend. Sometimes the designers will adapt to what users want to do, but they can only do that if users make their intentions and usages known to them. This forum is a good way to do that, as GM and megsaint point out.

 

@ZZZ: the "taking pictures of orgies" analogy was cute, I guess, but was a pretty weak argument against the "non-standard use" (or whatever) line. This discussion is all about the design of the UI, not what content you put into Evernote.

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I use Evernote in a non-standard way as well. A lot of us have use cases for the app that the developers simply couldn't imagine, because they use it differently than we do. Here is where the forums, support tickets, and feedback come in handy.

 

If you tell them how you use it (it appears you already have with your example of a photo+note, and I think that fits well within the current parameters of the app), it will provide them with the data they need in designing the next iteration.

I would use the phrase "use Evernote in a way it wasn't designed to be used" rather than "use Evernote in a non-standard way". Either way, this is not a "blame the user" statement, it's just a recognition that designers' intent isn't always apparent, and sometimes users will do things that designers don't intend. Sometimes the designers will adapt to what users want to do, but they can only do that if users make their intentions and usages known to them. This forum is a good way to do that, as GM and megsaint point out.

 

@ZZZ: the "taking pictures of orgies" analogy was cute, I guess, but was a pretty weak argument against the "non-standard use" (or whatever) line. This discussion is all about the design of the UI, not what content you put into Evernote.

 

Or, "I use Evernote in a way that the developers may not have considered." At any rate, I am imagine that the developers have a few mainstream use cases in mind when they make changes. I can almost guarantee that most of the time I won't fall within their gaze, and I accept that changes will often adversely affect me, but this time I am pleased that the change was perfect for my use case. 

 

Maybe they will add in the horizontal list view in the future. I don't know. For now, I recommend trying to adapt to the app as it is. You can hide the Sidebar (View > Hide Sidebar) and you can make all sorts of adjustments to the list view that will at least optimize the space with the categories you use the most (http://www.christopher-mayo.com/?p=106). If you miss the Sidebar, the it might help to use shortcuts: Command + Option + 2 will take you to the Notebook screen and Command + Option + 3 will take you to the Tag screen. 

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Are you guys serious?  We're talking about a basic horizontal list view that existed, that a lot of users clearly used, and now it got taken away from them.  And you guys are actually bringing in arguments about using "using Evernote in a way it wasn't designed to be used" and "use Evernote in a non-standard way"?!  They were using it the way it was designed to be used, they were using one of its features, and a very basic one at that.

 

When a user is upset that a feature that was extremely important to them was removed, responding with these types of answers only infuriates them more.

 

All these guys/gals is needed is "we are listening, we were under the impression that users didn't use this view, we'll let development know that a lot of users desperately want it back".  Not "you're using it wrong" or "why didn't you tell us" or "you're using it in a non-standard way".

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All these guys/gals is needed is "we are listening, we were under the impression that users didn't use this view, we'll let development know that a lot of users desperately want it back".  Not "you're using it wrong" or "why didn't you tell us" or "you're using it in a non-standard way".

Post #12 in this topic: http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38283-view-missing-in-511/?p=206939

Post #24 in this topic: http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38283-view-missing-in-511/?p=207005

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Are you guys serious?  We're talking about a basic horizontal list view that existed, that a lot of users clearly used, and now it got taken away from them.  And you guys are actually bringing in arguments about using "using Evernote in a way it wasn't designed to be used" and "use Evernote in a non-standard way"?!  They were using it the way it was designed to be used, they were using one of its features, and a very basic one at that.

 

When a user is upset that a feature that was extremely important to them was removed, responding with these types of answers only infuriates them more.

 

All these guys/gals is needed is "we are listening, we were under the impression that users didn't use this view, we'll let development know that a lot of users desperately want it back".  Not "you're using it wrong" or "why didn't you tell us" or "you're using it in a non-standard way".

 

As I said above, we are in basic agreement about the horizontal view being something that ought to be included in the app. I am not sure why it would infuriate you to suggest ways of trying to keep this kind of problem from happening to you in the future, and suggesting ways to adjust to the new UI. 

 

As for how you use the app, I don't remember anyone telling you that you use it wrong. I think you are making that up and getting angry about what you imagine was said, instead of reading and responding to what was actually said. Perhaps I am wrong and you can point that quote of yours out to me. As I have mentioned before, I often fall outside of the mainstream use case as well (call it non-standard, or whatever you would like) and I think this is why we have to communicate with the developers. 

 

As for letting developers know how you feel, you don't need me to do that. I can assure you that they are reading this thread, even on their Memorial Day weekend :) I am just responding as a fellow user to the feedback of a fellow user. 

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All these guys/gals is needed is "we are listening, we were under the impression that users didn't use this view, we'll let development know that a lot of users desperately want it back".  Not "you're using it wrong" or "why didn't you tell us" or "you're using it in a non-standard way".

Post #12 in this topic: http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38283-view-missing-in-511/?p=206939

Post #24 in this topic: http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38283-view-missing-in-511/?p=207005

 

Notice the word "all" at the beginning of my first sentence.  I didn't say that such posts hadn't been made, rather that was "all" that should be done, and that some of the additional types of responses are only likely to inflame users.  Which is exactly what happened.

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They were using it the way it was designed to be used, they were using one of its features, and a very basic one at that.

I made a specific reference to people using Evernote for complex task management systems such as GTD. I think I can make a pretty good case that Evernote developers were not making a GTD app. I suggested that maybe those folks (who are generally aware they are using Evernote in a way the designers did not originally envision) tell Evernote, "Hey, you make a great product and I've found a great way to use it. X Feature makes it possible for me to X thing. You might want to consider expanding on that feature or mentioning its use in the documentation. Thanks!". Viola! Evernote has a use case and a data point.

At no point have I said anyone's use was "wrong". At no point have I suggested that anyone was wrong for wanting a particular feature. So, unknot your knickers and enjoy your Sunday afternoon.

Best of luck.

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I also would like the old view back. As someone who works with Evernote only taking up half of my horizontal screen the new view is just not useable at all. Will be reverting back to the older version until this is fixed.

 

+1. I've also reverted.

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@ZZZ:

You forget: 

 

1: This is a user forum. If posters here want to have side-discussions with other users, that's not prevented by any rules, so long as it's more or less topical and doesn't get into personal accusations. I haven't seen that happening here, even though some of the discussions have been pretty hard-nosed.

 

2: Evangelists are not Evernote employees; we don't speak for Evernote, we don't have any special "in" with development plans, priorities and schedules, and we have the same right to voice opinions as anyone else (and we can be as right or wrong as anyone else). In other words, we're Evernote users too, albeit with our little tin badges.

 

In any case, I don't think that the word "all" means what you think it does in that context: The implication, as I read it, was that Evernote had not communicated something along the lines of what you asked for. And forever-evernote did that, early on. Anyways, if you want to persist in discussing side-issues yourself (which is what you're doing now), then you're welcome to continue.

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They were using it the way it was designed to be used, they were using one of its features, and a very basic one at that.

I made a specific reference to people using Evernote for complex task management systems such as GTD. I think I can make a pretty good case that Evernote developers were not making a GTD app. I suggested that maybe those folks (who are generally aware they are using Evernote in a way the designers did not originally envision) tell Evernote, "Hey, you make a great product and I've found a great way to use it. ..

 

I think it's fine for users to tell developers how they are using their app.  I'm not sure how whether someone is using it for GTD or the most basic note taking has anything to do with a simple horizontal list view though, since such a view is clearly going to be used by all types of users.  Are you suggesting that if EN had only known that some people are using it for GTD, that they would not have taken away the horizontal list view?

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2: Evangelists are not Evernote employees; we don't speak for Evernote, we don't have any special "in" with development plans, priorities and schedules, and we have the same right to voice opinions as anyone else (and we can be as right or wrong as anyone else). In other words, we're Evernote users too, albeit with our little tin badges.

 

Yes I get that.  And it's my position that if a company is going to allow people to be associated with them as "evangelists", whether paid or not, and have them be the primary people representing them on their forums, they should be training them how to interact with users so they make users feel good about participating and offering feedback, not angrier than when they started.  I am not saying you all do that, nor that many of you don't help users a great deal.  I am however saying that it's impossible to miss on this forum that users are routinely being interacted with in a way that seems to inflame them.  I posted three posts in the business forum last night and this morning was greeted by an evangelist basically dismissing each of my concerns and telling me that "I seem to expect the software to do exactly what I want it to".  (http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38392-how-do-i-activatereactive-business-account/)  That type of response just drives users away.

 

Perhaps I am especially sensitive to this since my companies deals with a lot of similar issues and we're very customer focused and also focused on how we respond to people.  We can't give people everything they want, but it's especially important to listen to feedback and never dismiss it in such ways.  Anyhow, I don't expect to change anything here, that would have to happen because someone at the top made it happen.

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ZZZ-

I am suggesting that if more people had told the developers that this was a feature that was important to them, the more likely it might have been that they would have considered finding a way to include it. I've said that a couple of different ways now. It is becoming obvious that you seem to want to argue about something no one here has the power to change. I have nothing more I feel I need to say on the matter.

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ZZZ-

I am suggesting that if more people had told the developers that this was a feature that was important to them, the more likely it might have been that they would have considered finding a way to include it. I've said that a couple of different ways now. It is becoming obvious that you seem to want to argue about something no one here has the power to change. I have nothing more I feel I need to say on the matter.

 

Actually I was about to "like" your post until I got to the "it's becoming obvious you want to argue" part.  You'll now have to live with that fact that your post could have been liked but wasn't :D.

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ZZZ-

I am suggesting that if more people had told the developers that this was a feature that was important to them, the more likely it might have been that they would have considered finding a way to include it. I've said that a couple of different ways now. It is becoming obvious that you seem to want to argue about something no one here has the power to change. I have nothing more I feel I need to say on the matter.

 

Actually I was about to "like" your post until you got to the "it's becoming obvious you want to argue".  You'll now have to live with that fact that your post could have been liked but wasn't :D.

 

Well, you do have a sense of humor. I'll grant you that :)

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GrumpyMonkey, if it makes you feel any better, I've noticed you're exceptionally helpful here.  Anyhow, I've had my say here.  I'll now return to my standard non-posting habit and won't let the door hit me on the way out....;-).

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GrumpyMonkey, if it makes you feel any better, I've noticed you're exceptionally helpful here.  Anyhow, I've had my say here.  I'll now return to my standard non-posting habit and won't let the door hit me on the way out....;-).

 

Thanks for the kind words. Please feel free to jump back into the conversation anytime. And, I also encourage you to send along your wish list (from another thread) to Evernote via the support page, or keep posting here in the forums about it. I am sure the Business folks would like to know what you want in the app, even if they may not be willing or able to provide everything on the list. It never hurts to ask!

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To any Evernote employees: will you be re-introducing Horizontal list view in future updates?

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To any Evernote employees: will you be re-introducing Horizontal list view in future updates?

 

Good point, I'm glad somebody got to it.

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I don't think it is idiotic to provide occasional feedback to developers. In fact, I think it is better for me to provide feedback before something unpleasant happens rather than after it does. My litmus test is: if I would miss it if it was gone, I try to mention how important it is to me. 

 

 

I am suggesting that if more people had told the developers that this was a feature that was important to them, the more likely it might have been that they would have considered finding a way to include it. 

 

 

<Sarcasm>

 

Dear Evernote,

 

I really love taking notes with your product. I use it to take notes everyday. Please don't remove the ability to take notes it is my favorite feature and is very important to me.

 

Sincerely yours,

 

Loyal Customer Since 2005

 

</Sarcasm>

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I'm a new user - and just moved all my stuff to evernote - really liking it. However, I just updated and can no longer get the horizontal list view - which makes it really cumbersome for me to use. I will not use Evernote until I can have a horizontal view - because it is just too frustrating for me to use.

 

Please bring horizontal list view back 

 

- a new, and previously happy, customer.

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Yes I get that.  And it's my position that if a company is going to allow people to be associated with them as "evangelists", whether paid or not, and have them be the primary people representing them on their forums, they should be training them how to interact with users so they make users feel good about participating and offering feedback, not angrier than when they started.

<snip>

Perhaps I am especially sensitive to this since my companies deals with a lot of similar issues and we're very customer focused and also focused on how we respond to people.  We can't give people everything they want, but it's especially important to listen to feedback and never dismiss it in such ways.  Anyhow, I don't expect to change anything here, that would have to happen because someone at the top made it happen.

That's your opinion, and that's fair enough and I respect it. Trust me when I tell you that there are rules for us evangelists/moderators, and if Evernote thinks that any of us has gone too far, they'll say something, and we'll accept that. Users also have the option of reporting any post that they find offensive/abusive/etc., no matter whose post it is. It will be looked at by Evernote staff, and discussed, seriously. Also trust me when I tell you that I do find actually helping users with their problems to be a lot more rewarding than discussing meta-topics like this, so I'll just sign off from it too.

On the topic of "blaming the user": I looked at my earlier post on "using Evernote in a way it wasn't designed to be used" vs. "using Evernote in a non-standard way" and realized that it made me seem like I was defending Evernote in this instance; that wasn't my intent. I was really just responding to GrumpyMonkey's terminology. As it is, I think that given that there was no beta for users to react to (thanks pgdahl for pointing that out to me), I can understand why users feel somewhat blindsided by the change. I can take forever-evernote at his/her word that the vertical/horizontal vs reminders tradeoff was necessitated by timeliness factor, but don't understand what the actual tradeoff was, and do hope that they do revisit this (I'd be surprised if they weren't already, behind the scenes).

@johnmarshall4 : I missed your reply to me earlier, re: analytics; sorry about that. It's a fair point, and I believe (based on a recollection of a comment by Dave Engberg a while ago) that Evernote does engage in analytics, though to what granularity I don't know. One thing analytics cannot capture, though, is features that haven't appeared in public yet, like the removal of horizontal list view in favor of the new vertical/reminders view that's the problem here. Whether they do usability testing behind the scenes I cannot say, so (to my point about the lack of beta above), I think that they dropped the ball on that one.

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I'm a premium member as well and I agree we all need horizontal view.  

 

Political parties say that for every 1 written complaint you can be sure there are at least 100 others who haven't bothered complaining.  So at that rate there's already at least 15,000 unhappy people that I can put my finger on based on 150 complaints just in this forum alone. And that's just from this forum - let alone whatever your poor support people are dealing with in your 'normal' support channel.

 

As to the reason (adding reminders) I don't use you as a todo list -  i use you to store and manage information (which is what you started out being).  Don't kill what you're good at to become 'everything for everyone'.

 

And making a major usability change like this without a beta?  Asking in your forums is great to get some feedback - but most of your avid users are not computer programmer junkies who watch your software forums religiously.  They are normal people who have lives enjoying whatever they enjoy doing. 

 

Bottom line - major stuff up here guys.  Please fix this quickly otherwise a lot of people, including myself will need to explore other options.  My loyalty is with you so this is where I would rather stay, but from the 'finality' of the comments I've read here, I really hope you listen to your customers and please fix this.  You've just made it totally user-unfriendly in my book.

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Hi Evernote Employees,

 

I'm a dedicated premium user with almost 12k notes. Center of my digital life on OS X, iphone, ipad, and webapp on linux.

 

Please bring back the OS X horizontal list view. I rely on it for note sorting by attributes and I really do need the width. Can't hide the sidebar: I frequently use shortcuts there and I drag notes to tags as a way of tagging quickly. 

 

 I <3 Evernote and am looking forward to its continued success and evolution. This was a learning experience for the devs and users, and that's OK. Keep up the great work, and thanks for the engagement in the forums.

 

best,

Stephen

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Paid User here adding a vote for the return of Horizontal View

 

It's essential to my workflow.

 

 

I hope that until an updated version with Horizontal View is released I can use an old version from Time Machine.

 

 

 

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As to the reason (adding reminders) I don't use you as a todo list -  i use you to store and manage information (which is what you started out being).  Don't kill what you're good at to become 'everything for everyone'.

I can guarantee you that there are over 150 users who have asked for reminders or related functionality in these forums. So if your rule of thumb is good enough for horizontal list view, then it ought to be good enough for reminders.

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As to the reason (adding reminders) I don't use you as a todo list -  i use you to store and manage information (which is what you started out being).  Don't kill what you're good at to become 'everything for everyone'.

I can guarantee you that there are over 150 users who have asked for reminders or related functionality in these forums. So if your rule of thumb is good enough for horizontal list view, then it ought to be good enough for reminders.

I think you missed the point.  I was saying that I personally don't use it as a todo list.  I wasn't saying that people don't want it.  Anyway dont take things out of context here.  The problem here is that you guys have made a problem for a lot of people by changing the core of your software and it seems like you are saying this change is permanent because of a decision you made to accomodate a new feature.  Sure go and include new features.  Just don't break your core program to accomodate new features.  And you have.  If you can't include new features without breaking a major feature then either work out a way or don't include it.  You're killing off your core.

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One more vote for bringing back horizontal view. In the meantime, i will re-install the previous version.

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Horizontal!  I need to see Create Date, Update Date, title, notebook and tags all at a glance.  Clearly other people do too.

I do not see how adding Reminders requires only one view.

Suddenly you took that away.  If you're going to poll people, especially people who pay, send an email!

Do you remember Hitchhikers' Guide to the Galaxy, where they posted plans for construction of a new freeway in the basement, third level down, locked filing cabinet?  Same thing.

Please please bring it back.  Keep the vertical view, keep the reminders, and bring back the horizontal view for people who are serious researchers, organizers, etc.

Thanks!

 

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As to the reason (adding reminders) I don't use you as a todo list -  i use you to store and manage information (which is what you started out being).  Don't kill what you're good at to become 'everything for everyone'.

I can guarantee you that there are over 150 users who have asked for reminders or related functionality in these forums. So if your rule of thumb is good enough for horizontal list view, then it ought to be good enough for reminders.

 

The question is how did these become mutually exclusive?  Did the people asking for Reminders also say "get rid of horizontal views"?  It's a simple screen real estate problem.

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I noticed when I installed 5.1.3 that it "updated" my database.  Has anyone successfully downgraded to 5.0.7 with a database that has been "updated" by 5.1.3?  Or was it necessary to use an old database backup?

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That for me seems to be the strangest part of this, why does adding reminders mean that you can't have a horizontal list? If it's a UI issue, well then just figure it out before you release the update, don't remove a pretty unrelated and useful feature. 

 

The prevailing "we know best" attitude fails again I'm afraid.

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Another vote in favor of bringing back horizontal view.

 

Why did horizontal view have to go anyway? I now understand that there was a forum post asking for feedback on horizontal view, but when it comes to features, why in the world should it ever be an either/or proposition? That would be like Microsoft asking Word users if they preferred boldface or italics because they can't have both!

 

I presume after this amount of feedback that horizontal view will be returning soon, but does anyone know if it's possible to downgrade to the prior release until this is fixed? I don't really need to be reminded to take notes (or whatever GTD things people do with Evernote), but I do need to be able to write them!

 

I'm on a Mac and I have an older version available on my laptop. I'm just worried that the update changed the database so that the old version won't work anymore.

 

Edit: Actually, I guess I could just wipe the entire thing and download my entire database from evernote's server into the old version.

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i'd say this thread has now become pointless. Clearly no-one from Evernote wants to comment. The views are not being listened to, and some utterly inane responses are being made by the Evangelists. I notice they are apparently evangelists for the product and not for the actual users. Any product is NOTHING without users, whether paid-up or free level. For some reason certain verticalers are sticking by the idea that you need to drop a quick email to the product vendor every few days to check that they understand you like base functionality just in case they were thinking of removing it, and apparently they genuinely do this all the time. I'd say this is complete rubbish, and they don't do this at all. A certain portion of the supplier/consumer relationship is TRUST. A consumer trusts a supplier to do the right thing for their interests. You don't need to constantly check, feed-back, comment, ensure. You buy into a product because you believe it is the right thing for you and your needs. There is responsibility on the behalf of the supplier that they don't change something so fundamental that it renders it undesirable to your loyal customer base (and there are some real loyals voicing negative opinion in this thread). Have you guys ever heard of the "new coke" fiasco in the mid 80s? Consumers of coke didn't feel they needed to constantly tell coca cola that they liked their product and please dont change it, because they trusted the brand and most importantly that the company understood the needs of the consumers; essentially what the consumers liked about the product without having to gather opinion constantly. They changed it, there was a massive backlash, they had to change it back; costing millions. Clearly Evernote is nothing compared to that, but if you make a fundamental change then you can't expect it to go well. If you posted a piddly little message or forum post then you NEED to understand that nearly all users of any product don't hang around the product forums AND if you make a stupid mistake then you are going to get complaints - LOTS of them. Have you seen how many posters in this thread have made their first ever post in it? What does that say? 

 

You can't defend this change. You can't say the users are wrong. You can't say users had the chance to give their views. 

 

If Evernote genuinely think they did all they could, or that this change should have gone ahead or that this is an acceptable way to handle the discussion that it has now created, then they know nothing about software development, stakeholder engagement, product management, usability design or customer service. 

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i'd say this thread has now become pointless. Clearly no-one from Evernote wants to comment. The views are not being listened to, and some utterly inane responses are being made by the Evangelists. I notice they are apparently evangelists for the product and not for the actual users. Any product is NOTHING without users, whether paid-up or free level. For some reason certain verticalers are sticking by the idea that you need to drop a quick email to the product vendor every few days to check that they understand you like base functionality just in case they were thinking of removing it, and apparently they genuinely do this all the time. I'd say this is complete rubbish, and they don't do this at all. A certain portion of the supplier/consumer relationship is TRUST. A consumer trusts a supplier to do the right thing for their interests. You don't need to constantly check, feed-back, comment, ensure. You buy into a product because you believe it is the right thing for you and your needs. There is responsibility on the behalf of the supplier that they don't change something so fundamental that it renders it undesirable to your loyal customer base (and there are some real loyals voicing negative opinion in this thread). Have you guys ever heard of the "new coke" fiasco in the mid 80s? Consumers of coke didn't feel they needed to constantly tell coca cola that they liked their product and please dont change it, because they trusted the brand and most importantly that the company understood the needs of the consumers; essentially what the consumers liked about the product without having to gather opinion constantly. They changed it, there was a massive backlash, they had to change it back; costing millions. Clearly Evernote is nothing compared to that, but if you make a fundamental change then you can't expect it to go well. If you posted a piddly little message or forum post then you NEED to understand that nearly all users of any product don't hang around the product forums AND if you make a stupid mistake then you are going to get complaints - LOTS of them. Have you seen how many posters in this thread have made their first ever post in it? What does that say? 

 

You can't defend this change. You can't say the users are wrong. You can't say users had the chance to give their views. 

 

If Evernote genuinely think they did all they could, or that this change should have gone ahead or that this is an acceptable way to handle the discussion that it has now created, then they know nothing about software development, stakeholder engagement, product management, usability design or customer service. 

 

(1) Me

You have mischaracterized my comments again. I believe my opinions are neither "idiotic" nor "inane," but I encourage other users to read some of my posts to see what I have actually said. Here are a couple of posts, including a previous response to you.

 

http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38283-view-missing-in-511/page-5#entry207311

http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38283-view-missing-in-511/page-6#entry207548

 

(2) Evangelists, Developers, and Users

The Evangelists, like the developers and users, are not part of the Borg collective. We've got individual opinions that often differ from one another, and the notion that Evernote doesn't listen to users (which ones?) is untenable. They clearly do, or the vertical view, reminders, and any number of other features wouldn't have been added in the first place. Many users have been asking for a vertical view for years, due dates have been requested for even longer, and there are plenty of users who don't care about either issue. Developers have to balance a lot of factors, some of which we cannot know. I disagree with all kinds of things they do, and I've even said so in this thread, but that doesn't mean they are incompetent. It simply means we disagree. 

 

(3) Evernote is Commenting

The developers have already responded in this thread. Please see the posts below, and remember that besides being Memorial Day weekend in the US, it is unrealistic to expect immediate decisions about such a major issue. Surely, we would all like Evernote to sit down, meet, talk it over, and reach a decision that is best for all of the users rather than leaping onto a forum and posting ad hoc changes to the roadmap. In addition, like most companies, Evernote does not telegraph what it will do beforehand, so though we might see them make a statement at some point about whether the horizontal view will be added, I wouldn't expect it. 

 

http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38283-view-missing-in-511/?p=206939

http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/38283-view-missing-in-511/page-2#entry207005

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Note to EN:

 

1)  User testing.  If you want to avoid these kinds of problems, run some focus groups with the UI concepts, and the trade offs you're considering, before you write a line of code.  This is standard procedure at most high volume software companies.  You guys are acting like total amateurs to test these ideas at release time.

 

2) If you want to ask users, send email to a random (emphasize random which anyone who took Stat 101 would know) selection of Premium customers and ask them to respond to ideas.

 

Note to my fellow users:

 

1)  EN must now go through the techie equivalent of the Kubler-Ross Five stages of grieving - a) denial, B) anger, c) bargaining, d) depression, e) acceptance - as far as I can tell they are still in denial.

 

2)  When they do get to acceptance they are not going to fix this quickly.  They have already said that they couldn't figure out how to do Reminders and Horizontal at the same time.  They can't back away from Reminders, that bell has been rung.  Now they have to figure out how to do what they could not figure out how to do earlier - Reminders AND Horizontal displays.  It's going to take time.  My guess is 2-3 months minimum.

 

I have not tested this yet, but I'm guessing that to downgrade we need to blow away the local database, install 5.07, and then rebuild the local database from the EN cloud.  Anything else probably risks the integrity of the local database.  EN is not going to help with this because they don't want to acknowledge their is a problem or suggest that downgrading is the solution.

 

There are a lot of comments here.  If you want to have an impact on EN, those comments have to reach the general market, not be confined to this forum.  I'm a Mac user so that means posting feedback at the AppStore.

 

Bottom line, this will not be fixed quickly, if at all.  That said, I hope EN will jump into this forum on Tuesday with better news.  If not, I think we can safely assume that their silence is an indication that they plan to just "weather the storm", not reinstate horizontal views.

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As to the reason (adding reminders) I don't use you as a todo list -  i use you to store and manage information (which is what you started out being).  Don't kill what you're good at to become 'everything for everyone'.

I can guarantee you that there are over 150 users who have asked for reminders or related functionality in these forums. So if your rule of thumb is good enough for horizontal list view, then it ought to be good enough for reminders.

 

The question is how did these become mutually exclusive?  Did the people asking for Reminders also say "get rid of horizontal views"?  It's a simple screen real estate problem.

I've actually already asked that question or wondered about it more than once in this topic. It's not my call and the explanation offered was unclear. I'm just following ozmark's system for determining interest in a feature by counting posts in the forum that call for that feature, and letting you know that there is at interest at least on the same order of magnitude for reminder-like functionality as there is for horizontal list view, based on post count. Whether that system is accurate or good at figuring out relative interest between two different (but possibly related, due to use of screen space) features is anyone's guess.

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As to the reason (adding reminders) I don't use you as a todo list -  i use you to store and manage information (which is what you started out being).  Don't kill what you're good at to become 'everything for everyone'.

I can guarantee you that there are over 150 users who have asked for reminders or related functionality in these forums. So if your rule of thumb is good enough for horizontal list view, then it ought to be good enough for reminders.

 

The question is how did these become mutually exclusive?  Did the people asking for Reminders also say "get rid of horizontal views"?  It's a simple screen real estate problem.

I've actually already asked that question or wondered about it more than once in this topic. It's not my call and the explanation offered was unclear. I'm just following ozmark's system for determining interest in a feature by counting posts in the forum that call for that feature, and letting you know that there is at interest at least on the same order of magnitude for reminder-like functionality as there is for horizontal list view, based on post count. Whether that system is accurate or good at figuring out relative interest between two different (but possibly related, due to use of screen space) features is anyone's guess.

Hey I was using a valid political measurement system of determining the veracity of COMPLAINTS, not a method of determining the number of interested people wanting a software feature.  We're not asking for a feature here.  We're all BITTERLY COMPLAINING.  And as such, I said you could easily apply the political 'rule of thumb' with complaints that one written complaint is worth at least 100 complaints since most people don't bother to complain - they just leave quietly and tell everyone how bad you've become behind your back.

 

So as I've already said, stop taking my comments out of context.

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Not only do I prefer horizontal view, I really need the columns with information (sync status, notebook, etc) back. Now, is there a way to display those?

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Normally I never complain about software, but I have specially created this account to post my vote:

Paid User here adding a vote for the return of Horizontal View

 

My Premium subscription will expire within a few days, and I might not renew it until this is fixed.

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Not only do I prefer horizontal view, I really need the columns with information (sync status, notebook, etc) back. Now, is there a way to display those?

 

you can enable them by right clicking the column headers, however every column you add eats further into your real estate, and ultimately your note display area. The vertical list just doesn't work.

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First, let me say that I am a long-time Evernote premium user. In general, I love the product and have changed my daily workflow to make good use of Evernote many times a day. I has really helped me move towards a paperless world.
.

The prevailing "we know best" attitude fails again I'm afraid.

 
 

Note to EN:
 
1)  User testing.  If you want to avoid these kinds of problems, run some focus groups with the UI concepts, and the trade offs you're considering, before you write a line of code.  This is standard procedure at most high volume software companies.  You guys are acting like total amateurs to test these ideas at release time.
 
2) If you want to ask users, send email to a random (emphasize random which anyone who took Stat 101 would know) selection of Premium customers and ask them to respond to ideas.

 
Metrodon hit the nail on the head.  Evernote design changes, and their arguments for these changes, continue to show that they do in fact believe that they ALWAYS know best, and that their users will just have to learn to adapt to these changes.
 
AFAIK, Evernote does not use focus groups or anyone external in evaluating design decisions.  The Evernote CEO, Phil Libin, has stated numerous times that "we design our software for ourselves."  Most recently Evernote senior manager Heather rationalized the major UI changes made with Skitch 2.0, EN Mac 5.0, and iOS 5.0 as being good and proper even though there was a large outcry from the users against these UI changes.

 

Boatguy, I wish Evernote would take your advice.  Evern though it is sound advice employed by many software developers, I doubt they will because they are just too arrogant.  When you believe that you are way smarter than everyone else, you tend to discard complaints as coming from ignorant people who just don't get it.

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I believe that Evernote do some focus panel testing, there is also a beta program that pretty much anyone can join. 

 

But, there is an undoubted arrogance about their methodology. Let's face it Skitch was an embarrassing disaster, EN 5 on iOS is in my opinion a UI and usability mess and Mac 5.0 was released with some functionality removed from the previous version despite many complaints during the beta process, which like Skitch had to be put back in. I would imagine that EN 5 on Windows will result in a lot of noise, a great deal of this will just be because people don't like change, but undoubtedly there will be UI and functionality changes that anger existing users.

 

They will point to increased user numbers and maybe even more Premium accounts and this is their reason for being there, but if you are a long time user then there is an ongoing risk that your use case could be broken at any time and that's quite scary.  

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As to the reason (adding reminders) I don't use you as a todo list -  i use you to store and manage information (which is what you started out being).  Don't kill what you're good at to become 'everything for everyone'.

I can guarantee you that there are over 150 users who have asked for reminders or related functionality in these forums. So if your rule of thumb is good enough for horizontal list view, then it ought to be good enough for reminders.

I think you missed the point.  I was saying that I personally don't use it as a todo list.  I wasn't saying that people don't want it.  Anyway dont take things out of context here.  The problem here is that you guys have made a problem for a lot of people by changing the core of your software and it seems like you are saying this change is permanent because of a decision you made to accomodate a new feature.  Sure go and include new features.  Just don't break your core program to accomodate new features.  And you have.  If you can't include new features without breaking a major feature then either work out a way or don't include it.  You're killing off your core.

Missed your post earlier. Note: when you use the term "you guys", I hope that you're not referring to me. I'm not an Evernote employee (I've said this multiple times in this thread already). Please don't take *me* out of context.

 

Further point -- Evernote will be able to tell if they are killing off their core by monitoring usage statistics, as they already do; these will be actual numbers, and not based on a rule of thumb. As usual, we can sit outside the bubble and guess, but they'll have some real data to go on, if they're interested in deriving it and using it, and afterwards, acting on it. 

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I noticed when I installed 5.1.3 that it "updated" my database.  Has anyone successfully downgraded to 5.0.7 with a database that has been "updated" by 5.1.3?  Or was it necessary to use an old database backup?

 

I was able to just fine. I just re-downloaded 5.0.7 from the (here) and signed in with my Evernote username, then it synced to my account downloading all my notes into that version of the program, took only a few minutes (it might take more if you have a significant amount of notes)

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Today I updated to 5.1.3 Evernote from 5.0.1 and have discovered to my dismay that the top notes list view is gone: which is by far the one I always use.

 

Please, I want my list back and agree on what the rest of the people are saying about this annoyance.

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Hi all, I'm a long-time premium user and I too was shocked to find such a
drastic UI change pushed onto the community without more warning, input, or
user verification. Having said that, there are a few fixes for this
problem.

First, it is easy to go back to 5.0.7. Uninstall your current version,
download the old one at http://mac.filehorse.com/download-evernote/, and
you're back to the comfortable old version in less than 5 minutes. I have
done this and I'm going to wait until this storm has passed.

Second, there is a reasonable view option with 5.1.x: click on any note in
the list view to bring up a full window of that note. When you're done,
close it. Have as many notes open at once as you want. This gives us fully

configurable views of notes, AND a long list.

As I said, I'm going back to the old version, because I don't need a long
list, and it absolutely is a waste of real estate.


But I include the above so we don't all complain as though the world has
ended, because in fact it has not. Evernote 5.1.1 still provides full
screen access to notes and a long list of notes.

Now Evernote - when are you going to accept this user feedback and 

bring us a configurable screen so we can all set it like we want to?

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Hi everyone,

Thank you all SO much for weighing in. Your feedback matters a tremendous amount. I can't promise anything either way, but your comments *are* being read by Evernote employees. We don't make a decision like this lightly so please bear with us while collect information.

Thanks again.

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I am one of the ones that loves the new vertical view and requested it, however I never dreamed it meant users who preferred horizontal view would have to lose that, and wish they hadn't.

 

This

 

As GM said "When the bell tolls for one feature, it tolls for them all!"

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New%20coke.jpg

 

 

"The story of "new Coke" is widely recalled, but the context is often forgotten. In 1985, The Coca-Cola Company's share lead over its chief competitor, in its flagship market, with its flagship product, had been slowly slipping for 15 consecutive years. The cola category in general was lethargic. Consumer preference for Coca-Cola was dipping, as was consumer awareness. That changed, of course, in the summer of 1985 as the consumer outcry over "new Coke" was replaced by consumer affection for Coca-Cola classic.

The fabled secret formula for Coca-Cola was changed, adopting a formula preferred in taste tests of nearly 200,000 consumers. What these tests didn't show, of course, was the bond consumers felt with their Coca-Cola — something they didn't want anyone, including The Coca-Cola Company, tampering with..."

 

EN, the story is here.  Y'all might want to read it because it doesn't look like you were around to remember it.

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For those needing to wind back on their mac - here's how you do it:

 

 


1. Quit Evernote from the elephant icon in the Menu Bar


2. Drag the Evernote application to the system Trash


3. Reboot your Mac


Go to the following link to install version 5.0.7

http://mac.filehorse.com/download-evernote/3330/


When you open the download, make sure to drag the Evernote icon into the Applications folder instead of running it from within the installer package.

 

 

NOTE TO EVERNOTE STAFF:  Please make sure you add 'returned horizontal view' in the first few lines of your upgrade notes because I wont be upgrading until I see you have fixed this error in judgement. :(

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Hi everyone,

Thank you all SO much for weighing in. Your feedback matters a tremendous amount. I can't promise anything either way, but your comments *are* being read by Evernote employees. We don't make a decision like this lightly so please bear with us while collect information.

Thanks again.

 

Thank you for posting Jack.

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New%20coke.jpg

 

 

"The story of "new Coke" is widely recalled, but the context is often forgotten. In 1985, The Coca-Cola Company's share lead over its chief competitor, in its flagship market, with its flagship product, had been slowly slipping for 15 consecutive years. The cola category in general was lethargic. Consumer preference for Coca-Cola was dipping, as was consumer awareness. That changed, of course, in the summer of 1985 as the consumer outcry over "new Coke" was replaced by consumer affection for Coca-Cola classic.

The fabled secret formula for Coca-Cola was changed, adopting a formula preferred in taste tests of nearly 200,000 consumers. What these tests didn't show, of course, was the bond consumers felt with their Coca-Cola — something they didn't want anyone, including The Coca-Cola Company, tampering with..."

 

EN, the story is here.  Y'all might want to read it because it doesn't look like you were around to remember it.

 

Thanks for that wikipedia copy/paste, however 'y'all' haven't said anything different there really. Coca cola didn't survey their customer attitudes properly before making a sweeping change (although far be it for me to tell an American about calorific fizzy drinks). A large survey doesn't mean they asked the right questions, and understood the answers properly. Evernote may have asked the right questions, although it seems very few people remember being asked, so I would say they didn't ask in the right way, and only asked a small subset of the user-base.

 

You could say the note-taking market is saturated, because how many note-taking apps do people need... and maybe that's why Evernote have tried to differentiate themselves with this peripheral functionality that most people will never use (I feel sure). I don't think this vertical note fiasco highlights militant brand loyalty however, but what it does highlight is that people expect core things about the product to be the same, and that the rest will evolve and improve around that core. 

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Recently upgraded to premium for academic data and was thrilled. I was considering going premium for my business account too, especially with easy switching available. 

 

The loss of the horizontal view is a game-changer for me. I won't go premium on my second account and will likely migrate my academic data elsewhere. I just need more viewing space on my laptop and simply don't need reminders. It's rather difficult (perhaps only for me) to write extensively in such a narrow field; jacks my work-flow.

 

Please consider bringing it back.

 

Cheers.

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In addition to the issues already mentioned in this tread (wasted screen space, content now too narrow, etc) I just discovered another issue... search results.  Before (with horizontal view) when I would search I'd get a set of pages back where I could see the title, date, notebook, etc. Now (because of the narrow list columns) I just see the first 3 or 4 words of the title which is almost useless.

 

PLEASE bring back the horizontal view, or unfortunately I (like many other paying premium members) and going to have to downgrade to a previous version.

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Please bring back the horizontal view.  I have a 13" laptop screen and (like many other paying premium members) will have to downgrade to a previous version for EN to be usable on a daily basis.  I appreciate the work on the reminders and do believe they will be a valuable feature to me once I can integrate into my workflow; however, if I can't use EN then reminders really don't help.

 

Thank you.

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Thank goodness for Time Machine. Just reverted to Friday's backup  of 5.0.7. Phew.

 

A quick anecdote: I used to go to a bagel shop in Brooklyn. It was a really good bagel shop. They always had a line out the door on weekend mornings, but everyone waited patiently in line, because the product was worth it. One day, the owners decided that bagels weren't enough, and that they had to compete for a bigger breakfast crowd. They closed for a couple weeks, remodeled, and reopened with a full breakfast menu. Guess what? They went out of business because nobody needed yet another breakfast joint. There was demand for bagels and coffee, not breakfast. 

 

The moral of the story: It's Evernote, not EverReminder.

 

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Count me as another vote for bringing it back (at the very least as an OPTION).

 

I use EN on a small-ish laptop and really need to be able to see longer titles and multiple columns. I know it's possible to see other columns in vertical view, but I don't want to be constantly turning them on and off - I want them all at the same time. Even Title + Updates + Tags, the bare minimum I need, takes up way too much screen space.

 

Also - I like the idea of reminders. Haven't used them yet, but nice idea. I get that they won't necessarily look as good in horizontal list view, but please let that be my problem and give me the option.

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A quick anecdote: I used to go to a bagel shop in Brooklyn. It was a really good bagel shop. They always had a line out the door on weekend mornings, but everyone waited patiently in line, because the product was worth it. One day, the owners decided that bagels weren't enough, and that they had to compete for a bigger breakfast crowd. They closed for a couple weeks, remodeled, and reopened with a full breakfast menu. Guess what? They went out of business because nobody needed yet another breakfast joint. There was demand for bagels and coffee, not breakfast. 

 

The moral of the story: It's Evernote, not EverReminder.

.

I understand your point, which is the potential downfall of a product/service when it changes it's basic, core function.

 

The problem, IMO, with Evernote is NOT that they added Reminders, or a Vertical List, but rather the ISSUE is:

  1. The design of the new features
  2. The removal of the Horizontal List

Had they not removed the Horizontal List, I doubt many would have complained.

 

There are good, solid, use cases for BOTH a Horizontal List and a Vertical List.  The fact that Evernote design team cannot easily see this without large numbers of users proclaiming their need is somewhat disturbing.  Frankly, it seems quite obvious to me.  :-)

 

Just so those interested in list views understand, there have been a sizable number of users in these forums that have been requesting a Vertical List for well over 3 years.  See REQUEST: Pure vertical list view for one example.

 

There have also been a large number of users requesting a "Due Date" for many years.

 

But in neither case did anyone contemplate that this would mean the removal of the long-standing Horizontal List view.  :(

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Thanks for that wikipedia copy/paste, however 'y'all' haven't said anything different there really.

 

Exactly the point, except that the outcome hasn't been decided which is why they need to read the history and follow suit.

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there seems to be some confusion of the term 'use case'. Horizontal and vertical lists are not different use cases - they are usability options. You offer these options to work in the way the users are most comfortable working when undertaking use cases e.g. creating a note, browsing for a note, searching for a note, amending a note. In fact, removing this usability option affects ALL use cases when working with notes, for a certain subset of users (represented in the growing list of complainants in this thread). That's why people are complaining. 

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Where were you all when Evernote asked on these forums to hear from horizontal list view aficionados!?

Well, what's done is done. The horizontal view is gone. Personally, I disliked the horizontal view myself, but I can see the use case, and it seems better to have more options rather than less.

 

Where were we? We were earning a living that's where! The tone of this comment is just not good enough for an Evernote official (EvernoteEvangelist looks official so I'm assuming it is).

 

I'm a paying user. I expect a service I buy to get better, not worse.

 

It is impossible to make an argument that a list that can only show one and a half piece of data is better than a list that could show all the relevant data for a note. List view allowed me to sort by title, date created or date last edited depending on my needs. Evernote already has a million and one fluff views that show no data, the list view was the one and only powerful view the app supported, and now that too has been turned into useless fluff. This is categorically a reduction in functionality a DOWNGRADE. There is an aesthetics argument too, but vital functionality is GONE - it is not moved, it is GONE.

 

I really get the impression Evernote don't care about power users.

 

Evernote has lost the ability to see all the data about notes in a single sensible place.

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I love the comparative simplicity of the same issue on the Windows side. @MadKnickers writes in distraught about the vertical view and how to get the horizontal back and @mrossk replies nonchalantly "Ctrl-Shift-F5". And that's all there was to it.

(http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/29528-help-my-panel-layout-has-changed-how/)

Please let the option of switching on the Mac be as simple!

 

You mean it's only us Mac users who are getting such a rotten deal from this upgrade?

 

HOW is that either fair or acceptable?

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I love the comparative simplicity of the same issue on the Windows side. @MadKnickers writes in distraught about the vertical view and how to get the horizontal back and @mrossk replies nonchalantly "Ctrl-Shift-F5". And that's all there was to it.

(http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/29528-help-my-panel-layout-has-changed-how/)

Please let the option of switching on the Mac be as simple!

 

You mean it's only us Mac users who are getting such a rotten deal from this upgrade?

 

HOW is that either fair or acceptable?

Hi. Actually, the apps are run by different teams with different upgrade schedules. I don't know if it is fair or acceptable, but this is how it works. There are pros and cons. The Windows app has long had a bunch of nice features like the vertical list view, and I think we Mac users have a great deal with our new vertical list view.

What the Windows app lacks right now is the Reminders, and it has been a long time since it was last overhauled, so I expect a lot of tough decisions are being made about what to cull and what to keep. We'll have to wait and see what happens.

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The Windows app has long had a bunch of nice features like the vertical list view, and I think we Mac users have a great deal with our new vertical list view.

 

If the new view on the Mac is like the list view on Windows, then I honestly don't know why people are so upset!  That's the view I use the most often!  When you use descriptive titles, it's so much easier to find the note you're looking for with the Windows list view. 

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Another vote (plea) for horizontal view. I've used Evernote since 2008 and have been a premium user since it was available. Vertical list view is a ridiculous waste of screen space on my laptop. For all other reasons articulated in this thread, please bring it back.

 

I also have downgraded to 5.0.7 and will hold off on future upgrades until horizontal list view returns.

 

-Jeff

 

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The Windows app has long had a bunch of nice features like the vertical list view, and I think we Mac users have a great deal with our new vertical list view.

 

If the new view on the Mac is like the list view on Windows, then I honestly don't know why people are so upset!  That's the view I use the most often!  When you use descriptive titles, it's so much easier to find the note you're looking for with the Windows list view.

It's not so much about the vertical view, but about losing the horizontal one in the process. I also think some people probably don't realize that it is quite customizable (http://www.christopher-mayo.com/?p=106).

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I want to speak up on the side of binging back the horizontal view.  I've always used Evernote in this way and it made evernote much easier to use side-by-side.  There were very few times where I only wanted to see Evernote on the screen.  Most of the time i'm taking notes about something so I have a browser or PDF open on one half of the screen and Evernote on the other.  This change breaks that workflow.  :-(

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