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dlu

mac (Archived) Evernote for Mac 3.0.7 Beta 5

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Hello Mac users!

We have a new Beta 5 that I hope many of you will enjoy. We are introducing Card View which replaces thumbnail view. This is the view you see in the FullScreen Mode. Speaking of which, FullScreen mode now has all three views, you can switch in and out of all of your favorites views.

Card view has large cards and small cards, as well as the ability to move into an "all cards" view without a note panel on the right.

Please let us know if you find any odd behaviors.

thanks!

If you've opted into the Betas, you can go to Help >> Check for Updates

If you're not auto-updating, you can get the beta here: http://evernote.s3.amazonaws.com/mac/prerelease/Evernote_236389.zip

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We have a new Beta 5 that I hope many of you will enjoy. We are introducing Card View which replaces thumbnail view. This is the view you see in the FullScreen Mode. Speaking of which, FullScreen mode now has all three views, you can switch in and out of all of your favorites views.

Thank you very much for adding ALL views to the FullScreen Mode.

This has been often requested since FullScreeen mode was first introduced in Jan 2011.

Card View – Big Disappointment

I don’t see any value in this view. It actually offers less information than the Snippet View.

I’ve never had much use for the Thumbnail view, but I completely understand those users, usually with a lot of notes with pictures, who do find it very valuable.

Frankly DLU, I am very frustrated and angry with Evernote for choosing to add the Card View.

For years many of us have been begging Evernote to give us a vertical list view.

Yet you choose to add a new view no one has asked for, and is of marginal value.

Why would you do this?

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Credit where credit is due. The look and feel and ergonomics of the new Evernote client (3.0.7 betas) are awesome. Despite some initial hiccups (the first beta refused to accept location data, but that was quickly resolved) the programme has evolved into a tool that is very elegant and natural to use. I LOVE it.

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The one thing about thumbnail view that I never liked. (ok, so Theres's more than just one thing...) I'd that you got thumbnails of different sizes. Card view gives a consistent size and I think accommodates images and PDFs pretty well. I'd rather not show the horizontal lines that make it look like an index card or show "Unititled Note" but those are pretty minor in my mind.

Card view also handles notes with a mix of text and images much better.

Overall I think the new view is an improvement. Vertical list view would be closer to adding a fourth view rather than swapping out an existing view for a new one.

Off the top of my head the vertical list view has been asked for because:

- it acts as a more compact snippet view. Esp useful if your titles are most important

- it allows you to see various other pieces of metadata

- it allows you to sort by other pieces of metadata

The latter gets a bit into database like functionality. Anyways those concerns aren't forgotten.

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Oh yes, also forgot to mention we have a Save Attachments to Folder functionality you should try out. It saves attachments to notes out on yor local hard drive :-)

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Ugh sorry having trouble with the mobile interface. Save Attachments is under the File menu

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Hmm. Is the card view supposed to use a random image from multiple images within a note as its thumbnail? In the old thumbnail view, it used the first image in a note so I always made sure the image I wanted displayed was first. Now, in some cases, it's taking the second. Not earth shattering but when a user is accustomed to recognizing notes and images visually rather than how they're titled, it's a little jarring. In some cases, I'm looking at the backs and sides of things rather than the fronts. :)

And, aesthetically speaking, it's odd seeing the fonts jump between the different views.

Add screen real estate to the list of vertical view reasons. I have far more screen width than height so if I'm going to have a list of notes, I'd rather it be next to the note pane rather than cutting into it.

One more question: when the focus is in the Snippet/Card pane, I used to be able to be able to use the keyboard to go directly to a certain letter in the alphabet. For example: if I'm scrolled all the way to the top of my notes in a notebook and I hit "S" on my keyboard, I'll be taken to the first note that starts with the letter S. Has this been removed permanently or did it just slip away temporarily?

Edited by tardis

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hi dlu. thanks for the hard work on this beta. lots of changes, and it is good to see evernote improving!

1. search explanation bar

again, this has been left out of the app. i don't understand why this was replaced by a favorites bar for which i have absolutely no use. how are we expected to know what search parameters are being used to filter notes? i have tried to adjust my workflow, but it is far less efficient, and certainly not an improvement (in my opinion). yes, i know this was taken out of the application a long time ago, but for those of us who recently upgraded to lion and discovered that their evernote ui was downgraded, it is still a shock. also, i plan to bring this up for every single beta from now on until i see you give us back the feature that you worked so hard to make in the first place! think of it as an homage to the developers.

2. full screen view

great job including all of the views. i will certainly be using this from now on!

3. card view

even less useful than thumbnails. sorry. i dislike them on the mac, i dislike them in ios, i simply do not like them sam i am.

4. list view on the left (not just at the top)

like simplenote (ios) give us the option (i know you want to love this word) to control how many lines of text are displayed (0-6) and the problem is solved. you don't need a fourth view. you just need an option :)

5. save attachment

seems to work well so far.

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Thank you very much for adding ALL views to the FullScreen Mode.

This has been often requested since FullScreeen mode was first introduced in Jan 2011.

Lion came out in July 2011.

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It seems I'm in the minority: I like Card View a lot.

On my small screen (11" MacBook Air) I can:

a) see 24 notes to scan quickly, or

B) see 12 at full view to see a bit more detail + 6 titles, or

c) I can pull the cards into the sidebar to see and edit the selected note large.

I was never a big fan of thumbnail view, so I like this a ton better.

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It seems I'm in the minority: I like Card View a lot.

You may or may not be in the minority. It just came out, and the sample size of opinions is small. As is often the case, those who don't like it will tend to voice, those who do will probably just enjoy it and keep quiet. Glad you like it -- carry on...

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hello.

while i always welcome refinements and improvements, the new card view is neither. i hate it.

when a note is comprised primarily of an image, thumbnail view gave us a large, clear display of *just* the image -- which was fantastic. now, we see (a.) a smaller version of the image, on top of (b.) a skeuomorph of a card, with (c.) unnecessary lines, and (d.) text crammed into the same space. how can this possibly be seen as an improvement?!?

it's not. i truly hate to be negative, but card view is flat-out awful.

that said, if you want to include it, why not offer all four views (just as we have with the finder)? different views that make sense in different situations. but please, please don't take away features to which users have become accustomed.

adding a new view? yes! great! let's have all four.

taking away a preexisting view? no, no, no!

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One of my primary uses for Evernote is clippings of visual inspirations. This card view seems to really minimize any clippings of pictures. What is the long-term vision? Something that competes with Pinterest or Scrivener?

Also I am still on 10.6.8 and my notecards do not even display pictures!

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hello.

while i always welcome refinements and improvements, the new card view is neither. i hate it.

when a note is comprised primarily of an image, thumbnail view gave us a large, clear display of *just* the image -- which was fantastic. now, we see (a.) a smaller version of the image, on top of (b.) a skeuomorph of a card, with (c.) unnecessary lines, and (d.) text crammed into the same space. how can this possibly be seen as an improvement?!?

it's not. i truly hate to be negative, but card view is flat-out awful.

that said, if you want to include it, why not offer all four views (just as we have with the finder)? different views that make sense in different situations. but please, please don't take away features to which users have become accustomed.

adding a new view? yes! great! let's have all four.

taking away a preexisting view? no, no, no!

This about sums it up. I'd also add that the card view only shows one image from the note. There's no way to know if there are multiple images until you actually open the note. That's incredibly frustrating for people who use a lot of images in their work and research.

And, like I mentioned before, the images used for the cards seem to be completely random. I don't know if that's a feature or a bug at this point.

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Card view is a complete nightmare for me. I actually contacted tech support because I thought it was a bug.

I use Evernote for visual reference and inspiration, 98% of the time. Card view clutters my collection with information I don't need at all.

Please bring thumbnail view back. Also, where can I get the previous version of Evernote?

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Card view is a complete nightmare for me. I actually contacted tech support because I thought it was a bug.

I use Evernote for visual reference and inspiration, 98% of the time. Card view clutters my collection with information I don't need at all.

Please bring thumbnail view back. Also, where can I get the previous version of Evernote?

lol. well, i guess your yearning for earlier versions of evernote says it all. i have been seriously thinking about downgrading to snow leopard so that i can get my search explanation bar back. unfortunately, going back to an earlier version of evernote for this would take me back to june!

the card view doesn't bug me so much. i just don't see the point (maybe because my work involves text). i really want to see a list view on the left side.

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Hello.

Thanks for adding snippet view to full screen. Evernote is always open on my computer and I like to have it in its own desktop, but couldn't do the full-screen because I had to sacrifice snippet view to do so. V happy.

Never even thought of using card view for anything, but have played around w it based on the (um..enthusiastic) comments here. What's handy is the quick expansion arrow. Now that I know it's there, it proved to be an easy way to find the right receipt (photo of my receipt) quickly. I can see me bailing for this view occasionally for searches like that, and then going back to snippet for everyday workflow.

REALLY like the save attachments menu item. I will use it a lot.

Thanks again,

Karen

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Maybe I'd have to see a thumbnail view vs. card view for image-heavy users. I use a lot of images, too, and haven't noticed much of a difference.

I really like card view and I'm glad the view itself has multiple options (collapse/expand, big tiles/little tiles)

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I must be missing something. Looking at the screenshots posted earlier (I haven't installed the beta), Card View looks identical to the thumbnail view we currently have in Full Screen in the released product. The only differences I see in the screenshots is that there are now controls to change sorting, and the option to show the note pane.

But the rest - the little index card type things with the note title on the top and then content from the note in the "body" of the cards...that looks EXACTLY like what I already have in full screen. It DOES look different from the "icon" view in non-full screen mode, however. Is that the change that people are upset about?

I actually sort of like the thumbnails in full screen mode since they show the note titles (which are important to me) whereas the non-full screen version did not show full titles. In the current product, I occasionally use full screen to get that view, but then go OUT of full screen to use Snippet view. I rarely used the non-full screen version of thumbnail view (describing all these different views clearly is a bit cumbersome!!!!)

But anyway, what am I missing here? This doesn't look like a huge change -- other than making Full Screen much more flexible and useful, which is a very good thing.

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But anyway, what am I missing here? This doesn't look like a huge change -- other than making Full Screen much more flexible and useful, which is a very good thing.

As mentioned, the thumbnail view showed you just that: a thumbnail of your entire note. The card view randomly chooses one image, crops it, and uses it as a thumbnail. A small amount of text is squeezed in above the thumbnail. For example, I have a number of notes that are: image, caption, image, caption, image, caption. Before, I would see all that in thumbnail view. Now I see: caption, caption, caption, and random image (not always the first image). The thumbnail view was the perfect way to see everything you have in a note at a glance. That's a huge loss of information. Especially if one's research contains large numbers of images. It looks fine with text-only notes.

I'm not even clear on what Evernote is trying to achieve with this new view. It's just frustrating to see such an invaluable piece of software take such a huge leap backwards in terms of functionality.

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I am glad I am not the only one. The new thumbnails/card view = #FAIL

This view doesn't feel intuitive at all to me. I liked the version 2 versions ago. I think it was beta 3. Even the version that is current in 3.0.6 feels right. It feels like mail but better. I also like how I can quickly view the "cards" in version beta 3... but it felt different.

The only thing I do like is the full screen view. Please give us the option of not doing the cards. It makes it hard to scroll through and find what I am looking for easily. The use of space is awkward as the amount of negative space around it doesn't flow very well.

I also liked the view that allowed me to make the thumbs bigger or smaller.

I am about to download the version from the app store. I am hoping this is not a designer who can't see past his own mistake and revert back or try another option. QUICKLY!!!!!

UPDATE:

NOw as I am playing with it.... it makes it even worse.... the big card view which is the only one that makes sense because of all the graphics I have saved.... only allows me to show like 3-5 a time unless I increase the vertical height of the app. I have the room on my monitor but I don't like to keep the app supersized......

UGH..... I hope I can go back and my notes are reverse compatible... I am so upset at this update... Please please allow for the old view as well if you are going to force this on people. I know you want to keep it simple but I feel like I can't find anything now.

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Thanks - I guess my confusion came from the fact that, prior to the beta, there were actually TWO "thumbnail-like" views (in the Lion version of EN that is). The non-full screen, which looks like what you describe. And the full-screen version, which looks just like the new card view.

It sounds like we now have just one view like this - the card view - for both non-full screen and full screen. Is that it?

I agree that the use of images in card view should be more consistent and should always show the first picture, or even multiple pictures if applicable (although that one doesn't affect me too much right now).

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But anyway, what am I missing here? This doesn't look like a huge change -- other than making Full Screen much more flexible and useful, which is a very good thing.

As mentioned, the thumbnail view showed you just that: a thumbnail of your entire note. The card view randomly chooses one image, crops it, and uses it as a thumbnail. A small amount of text is squeezed in above the thumbnail. For example, I have a number of notes that are: image, caption, image, caption, image, caption. Before, I would see all that in thumbnail view. Now I see: caption, caption, caption, and random image (not always the first image). The thumbnail view was the perfect way to see everything you have in a note at a glance. That's a huge loss of information. Especially if one's research contains large numbers of images. It looks fine with text-only notes.

I'm not even clear on what Evernote is trying to achieve with this new view. It's just frustrating to see such an invaluable piece of software take such a huge leap backwards in terms of functionality.

Would it be possible for you to provide a screenshot of thumbnail view vs. card view? I don't have a photographic memory, but from what I can recall, card view feels minimally different from thumbnail view (in fullscreen on Lion) while adding more flexibility of how you can set it up.

I'm just curious of the difference as I'm seeing very visceral negative reactions to card view and I plainly do not see the difference. I've used every beta available since Lion came out and card view has been the most positive -- in my opinion, obviously -- change I've seen as far as UI goes. That's why I'm interested in someone laying out what's different.

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I am glad I am not the only one. The new thumbnails/card view = #FAIL

This view doesn't feel intuitive at all to me. I liked the version 2 versions ago. I think it was beta 3. Even the version that is current in 3.0.6 feels right. It feels like mail but better. I also like how I can quickly view the "cards" in version beta 3... but it felt different.

The only thing I do like is the full screen view. Please give us the option of not doing the cards. It makes it hard to scroll through and find what I am looking for easily. The use of space is awkward as the amount of negative space around it doesn't flow very well.

I also liked the view that allowed me to make the thumbs bigger or smaller.

I am about to download the version from the app store. I am hoping this is not a designer who can't see past his own mistake and revert back or try another option. QUICKLY!!!!!

UPDATE:

NOw as I am playing with it.... it makes it even worse.... the big card view which is the only one that makes sense because of all the graphics I have saved.... only allows me to show like 3-5 a time unless I increase the vertical height of the app. I have the room on my monitor but I don't like to keep the app supersized......

UGH..... I hope I can go back and my notes are reverse compatible... I am so upset at this update... Please please allow for the old view as well if you are going to force this on people. I know you want to keep it simple but I feel like I can't find anything now.

I'm a little confused by a lot of this post.

I am glad I am not the only one. The new thumbnails/card view = #FAIL

This view doesn't feel intuitive at all to me. I liked the version 2 versions ago. I think it was beta 3. Even the version that is current in 3.0.6 feels right. It feels like mail but better. I also like how I can quickly view the "cards" in version beta 3... but it felt different.

The cards haven't changed from 2 versions ago. The cards in fullscreen mode are the same as before.

The only thing I do like is the full screen view. Please give us the option of not doing the cards. It makes it hard to scroll through and find what I am looking for easily.

Fullscreen mode now lets you choose 3 different view options. 2 of them don't include cards. (The same as outside of fullscreen view). If you're missing the old thumbnail view, then I'm probably misreading your post. If you want to revert back, you're definitely allowed to do that.

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Would it be possible for you to provide a screenshot of thumbnail view vs. card view? I don't have a photographic memory, but from what I can recall, card view feels minimally different from thumbnail view (in fullscreen on Lion) while adding more flexibility of how you can set it up.

No, I can't post screenshots of my Evernote content on a public forum. I'm sure there are images in Google Images. As described: thumbnail view showed you the entire content of a note — top to bottom — all images and all text. Card view takes bits of a note — a few words of text and a random image (that changes evidently) — and displays it on an index card. This is a difference in functionality not aesthetics.

If you're going to show me just one image of multiple images in a note, at least make it the first one, please. Most users won't have images just randomly jumbled within a note. That, at least, would make this change a little easier to deal with.

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My feature request would be to provide a way to jump to the top of the notes list. I've been told that clicking on All Notes in the favorites bar should do that but it doesn't (and never has, for me). I'd like a way to quickly get to the top with one click.

Thanks.

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Another thing I noticed is that typing seemed to be a lot slower and less responsive, did anyone else notice this? Maybe it is because the text is updating live in both the "card thumbnail" and the larger window to the right at the same time. When I type there is a slight delay/lag time.

I think cards could be a useful thing, but don't remove the thumbnail view. Being able to look through my images and scale them up was very useful to me. I could see how text notes may be more manageable with note cards possibly. Scrivener is the master class for a notecard app.

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Ditto on thank you for adding the other views to the full screen mode!

I haven't decided whether I like the new Card View or not but realize that there are tens of millions of users and anything I see here in the forums is absolutely not evidence that "no one has asked for" it. C'mon guys, you gotta realize that the views represented in the forums are "statistically insignificant" when considering the number of users Evernote has. Let's not be so quick to throw over-generalizations around huh? If you hate it then fine, and by all means say so, but no need in going on with blanket statements about what all Evernote users want.

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Another thing I noticed is that typing seemed to be a lot slower and less responsive, did anyone else notice this? Maybe it is because the text is updating live in both the "card thumbnail" and the larger window to the right at the same time. When I type there is a slight delay/lag time.

I think cards could be a useful thing, but don't remove the thumbnail view. Being able to look through my images and scale them up was very useful to me. I could see how text notes may be more manageable with note cards possibly. Scrivener is the master class for a notecard app.

Will look into the slowness

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Whatever the merits of Thumbnail View vs Card View I still saw at least one instance of the word "thumbnail" in Beta 5. If persist with Card View you might want to hunt that one down.

Martin

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Just to clarify my earlier post: attached is two screenshots.

This is what I see, viewing the same notebook on OSX 10.6.8 in Evernote 3.05 (thumbnail view) and 3.07 beta 5 (card view).

It should be pretty apparent what the problem is.

I can't figure out why you want to dramatically limit what Evernote is useful for.

post-41780-0-12728800-1333363284_thumb.j

post-41780-0-07009800-1333363287_thumb.j

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Just to clarify my earlier post: attached is two screenshots.

This is what I see, viewing the same notebook on OSX 10.6.8 in Evernote 3.05 (thumbnail view) and 3.07 beta 5 (card view).

It should be pretty apparent what the problem is.

I can't figure out why you want to dramatically limit what Evernote is useful for.

Yikes. That definitely clears it up. Thank you for posting. As I said, thumbnail -> card wasn't a huge change for me, so I appreciate seeing what happened to other users.

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Another thing I noticed is that typing seemed to be a lot slower and less responsive, did anyone else notice this? Maybe it is because the text is updating live in both the "card thumbnail" and the larger window to the right at the same time. When I type there is a slight delay/lag time.

I think cards could be a useful thing, but don't remove the thumbnail view. Being able to look through my images and scale them up was very useful to me. I could see how text notes may be more manageable with note cards possibly. Scrivener is the master class for a notecard app.

Will look into the slowness

I have also seen the slowness. It's usually at least a few letters slow if not a whole word.

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How do I get back to this http://dl.dropbox.co...28/evernote.png

This is what I want.....

UPDATE: when I upgraded it changed my default view for some reaosn. I found that view and now I am semi-happy again. However, I did switch to see what view I was missing. This is the view I was missing http://discussion.evernote.com/index.php?app=core&module=attach&section=attach&attach_rel_module=post&attach_id=2459

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Would someone be willing to paste a screen shot of card view?

Maybe I'd have to see a thumbnail view vs. card view for image-heavy users. I use a lot of images, too, and haven't noticed much of a difference.

what am I missing here? This doesn't look like a huge change -- other than making Full Screen much more flexible and useful, which is a very good thing.

i'm attaching images of (the old) thumbnail view vs. (the new) card view.

note that:

1. card view's images are smaller.

this is especially critical when a note consists only of an image. (in addition to simply being forced to view smaller images, when an image contains text, that text in card view is also smaller -- and in many cases too small to be read without singling out that note. this is an absolute productivity-killer. previously i could look at multiple image thumbnails and read any text therein right on the thumbnails. now, i often have to click on each note separately in order to read the text that note's image contains.

2. card view's images are cropped! (hello?!?)

so, whereas a thumbnail used to show the entire image, a card now only shows a portion of the image. so, now, the only way to see an overview of an entire image in evernote is to click on that particular card, so its image is individually displayed. the card images are cropped! <--- (in case that didn't sink in, please read it again.)

again -- i realize we all work differently. this will seem like an insignificant change to some. others may find it an improvement -- for they way that they work. others (such as myself), a catastrophe... i totally get that. and i'm all for (and always for) the incorporation of new features. what i'm not for is the removal of features to which users have already become reliant. remember -- we all work differently.

i think the solution is simple: the views are different enough that both should be included. as i mentioned before, i remember when the mac's finder had only 3 views. now it has 4. no biggie! please include all 4 views in evernote, and then this is a "case closed." :-)

•••••

EDIT: well, i was all set to post this when i discovered there's a 500K GLOBAL file-upload limit... really, evernote? 500K?! so, the fact that i've uploaded a couple of images to the forum in the past now prevents me from attaching any more images, ever, for the rest of my life??

oy.

•••••

here's a link to view my two screenshots, combined as one:

---> http://i742.photobuc...bnailvscard.png

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Thanks for the screen shots, soundsgoodtome.

About this...

EDIT: well, i was all set to post this when i discovered there's a 500K GLOBAL file-upload limit... really, evernote? 500K?! so, the fact that i've uploaded a couple of images to the forum in the past now prevents me from attaching any more images, ever, for the rest of my life??

See this thread that I started in January, when I ran into the same problem. I now share all screenshots and other images using my Dropbox public folder.

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Call me bonkers, but I like the Card View.

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Call me bonkers, but I like the Card View.

you're not bonkers. it's perfectly viable as a new option. :) it's merely the notion that it's a suitable replacement for thumbnail view that's inexplicable. :(

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Call me bonkers, but I like the Card View.

you're not bonkers. it's perfectly viable as a new option. :) it's merely the notion that it's a suitable replacement for thumbnail view that's inexplicable. :(

I never used or saw any point in the thumbnail view, really. You could argue, though, that Card View and Snippet View more or less do the same thing - except Card View is the prettier, but less talented, sibling.

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I never used or saw any point in the thumbnail view, really.

helpful... but do you at least understand the concepts that (a.) everyone's needs are not identical and that (b.) there are others who rely, specifically, upon thumbnail view, even though you don't? :)

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I never used or saw any point in the thumbnail view, really.

helpful... but do you at least understand the concepts that (a.) everyone's needs are not identical and that (b.) there are others who rely, specifically, upon thumbnail view, even though you don't? :)

Why does everyone around here speak to me like I am a an imbecile?

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I never used or saw any point in the thumbnail view, really.

helpful... but do you at least understand the concepts that (a.) everyone's needs are not identical and that (b.) there are others who rely, specifically, upon thumbnail view, even though you don't? :)

Why does everyone around here speak to me like I am a an imbecile?

everyone?

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Tags Column is Still Not in EN Mac List View After 3+ years

DLU, as you know Tags are one of the primary means for organizing and searching for Notes.

Yet the EN Mac client has been denied of having Tags Column in the List View well over 3 years after it was in the EN Win client.

We really need a Tags column in order to:

  1. Sort on Tags to enable some workflows
  2. Review groups of Notes to ensure that they have proper tags.

I urge you to put this at the top of the EN Mac UI enhancements.

Here's a reference to the 2009 thread that requested this:

Another great podcast, thanks.

In it you spoke about further work being done to make the windows & mac versions visually the same.

If this is the case can you please let us know when you will add a Tags column to list view as per the windows client.

This makes it so easy to quickly scan down a list when doing work on Tag organisation etc.

It has been mentioned before but no comment came back from Dave & Company as far as I am aware.

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=11089&p=44333&hilit=list+view+tags#p44333

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I never used or saw any point in the thumbnail view, really.

helpful... but do you at least understand the concepts that (a.) everyone's needs are not identical and that (b.) there are others who rely, specifically, upon thumbnail view, even though you don't? :)

Why does everyone around here speak to me like I am a an imbecile?

I know you're not an imbecile! (And I think soundsgoodtome is just really frustrated.)

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(Another) request for the "clicking area" to be expanded on the favorites bar. I have to click the tiny arrow next to the work Notebooks to get the drop down instead of the word Notebook.

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Evernote Design and Development Process

DLU made a post in another thread today that seems to provide considerable insight into the Evernote design and development process. I have quoted his post below.

In his post DLU makes it clear that our feedback on Evernote design, and what features get implemented, has minimal impact on Evernote decision process.

So a couple of things. One, I feel like any new feature we do is more likely to get negative feedback on the forums. The people who love it are likely to go on using it without really posting, while the people who's workflow got changed have the forums as a place to vent. A lot of times I feel like standard response on the forums is, "change it back to how it used to be" or "give us an option to change it back to how it used to be." Which is a legitimate opinion, but something we expect to always have.

Two, sort of the corollary, we're never going to make everyone happy. If you go back to the note info panel redesign, we spent a lot of time getting feedback and making changes. We ended up with the dates visible at first and then fading in the rich text toolbar when you're editing the note body which added a lot to the development time. We basically finished most of the work, then had to tear out and add in a new chunk that had to go through design, coding and QA. Happy to do it that time, but I can't imagine that doing that over and over again is worth it.

Three, we have some other factors to consider. Like our CEO's opinion :) There's also some bigger picture problems we're trying to solve or avoid. Or problems for non-forum posting novice users. Which bring me to...

Four, There's a balance we need to strike, between new users and returning users, between novice users and power users and all sorts of other things. I've seem bad things happen if you lean too far in any one direction. But the forums pretty much only represent power users. So anytime we do some balancing for novice users, we'll see lots of forum activity. So I'm trying to make a judgement call not just on how much the forums like it, but if I'm striking a good balance overall.

Five, sometimes we just disagree. Forum feedback is great, but sometimes we disagree with pieces or even large chunks of it. If we're lucky, we have usability tests or some other data that can help us lean one way or another. But sometimes we need to make a judgement call without too much help. We take a step back and reevaluate, but if at the end of the day we're unconvinced by a forum thread, we gotta do what we think is best. Even if it involves being unpopular in the forums. I don't particularly like it, nor does it happen too often, but sometimes it does.

I'm not saying we always make the right choice, but I'm hoping that helps explain a little without rambling too much or being too repetitive.

I have made bold selected key statements.

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Evernote Design and Development Process

DLU made a post in another thread today that seems to provide considerable insight into the Evernote design and development process. I have quoted his post below.

In his post DLU makes it clear that our feedback on Evernote design, and what features get implemented, has minimal impact on Evernote decision process.

So a couple of things. One, I feel like any new feature we do is more likely to get negative feedback on the forums. The people who love it are likely to go on using it without really posting, while the people who's workflow got changed have the forums as a place to vent. A lot of times I feel like standard response on the forums is, "change it back to how it used to be" or "give us an option to change it back to how it used to be." Which is a legitimate opinion, but something we expect to always have.

Two, sort of the corollary, we're never going to make everyone happy. If you go back to the note info panel redesign, we spent a lot of time getting feedback and making changes. We ended up with the dates visible at first and then fading in the rich text toolbar when you're editing the note body which added a lot to the development time. We basically finished most of the work, then had to tear out and add in a new chunk that had to go through design, coding and QA. Happy to do it that time, but I can't imagine that doing that over and over again is worth it.

Three, we have some other factors to consider. Like our CEO's opinion :) There's also some bigger picture problems we're trying to solve or avoid. Or problems for non-forum posting novice users. Which bring me to...

Four, There's a balance we need to strike, between new users and returning users, between novice users and power users and all sorts of other things. I've seem bad things happen if you lean too far in any one direction. But the forums pretty much only represent power users. So anytime we do some balancing for novice users, we'll see lots of forum activity. So I'm trying to make a judgement call not just on how much the forums like it, but if I'm striking a good balance overall.

Five, sometimes we just disagree. Forum feedback is great, but sometimes we disagree with pieces or even large chunks of it. If we're lucky, we have usability tests or some other data that can help us lean one way or another. But sometimes we need to make a judgement call without too much help. We take a step back and reevaluate, but if at the end of the day we're unconvinced by a forum thread, we gotta do what we think is best. Even if it involves being unpopular in the forums. I don't particularly like it, nor does it happen too often, but sometimes it does.

I'm not saying we always make the right choice, but I'm hoping that helps explain a little without rambling too much or being too repetitive.

I have made bold selected key statements.

Hi JM. I read dlu as saying that our feedback is balanced against a lot of other competing factors. Sounds fair to me.

There are a lot of things I would like to see in Evernote, and I have been pretty vocal about them; the drawn out debates with dlu about the benefits of providing us with options comes to mind as one. I don't think he was persuaded in the least, but that is OK. He listened, and as the post you quoted demonstrates, he is willing to engage with us in meaningful discussions. How many other developers provide so much feedback? I don't think your conclusions about him are fair, especially given the context of the snarky comments he was responding to :(

As for power users, I am sure dlu recognizes that old geezers like myself spend a lot of time with novice users (I am giving a workshop this month to some), and we are not only aware of what novice users are looking for, but we are trying not to push for absurdly niche functions, because we want to see Evernote appeal to a wide audience. But, I imagine it is a difficult call when it comes to development. Sometimes in our discussions, and our passion for things like editable metadata in the headers (for instance), we might be expressing concerns that novice users are simply not as enthusiastic about. They might not even know the metadata exists in the first place!

Anyhow, the mac interface is much improved, and in many ways (the full screen view) Evernote listened and delivered. Seems like we are having an impact.

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GM, facts speak louder than words.

Take a hard, objective look at it. Can you find any changes made that you have requested or supported?

On a rare occasion Evernote has made changes in response to requests made in the User Forum, but for the most part our requests have been ignored. "Evernote knows best" is the clear message, and has been for a long time.

The Evernote CEO Phil Libin has even stated in public interviews that Evernote makes their design decisions based on what they internally find useful, not what the users have requested.

I think the Evernote concept is pure genius. However, IMO, the implementation and UI, not so much.

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GM, facts speak louder than words.

Take a hard, objective look at it. Can you find any changes made that you have requested or supported?

On a rare occasion Evernote has made changes in response to requests made in the User Forum, but for the most part our requests have been ignored. "Evernote knows best" is the clear message, and has been for a long time.

The Evernote CEO Phil Libin has even stated in public interviews that Evernote makes their design decisions based on what they internally find useful, not what the users have requested.

I think the Evernote concept is pure genius. However, IMO, the implementation and UI, not so much.

fact: three column view in full screen mode. you even said it your first post in this thread :)

evernote has a user forum, beta testing, and employees who regularly engage in discussions with users about features. do you think they do this just for show?

i sympathize with your frustration. you know i have many feature requests. but, there is a difference between listening and obeying. we are talking about a major app with millions of users, and i not only expect them to make changes after long deliberation, but also to do what they think is best for the company, even if that means it isn't exactly what i want it to be.

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GM, facts speak louder than words.

Take a hard, objective look at it. Can you find any changes made that you have requested or supported?

On a rare occasion Evernote has made changes in response to requests made in the User Forum, but for the most part our requests have been ignored. "Evernote knows best" is the clear message, and has been for a long time.

The Evernote CEO Phil Libin has even stated in public interviews that Evernote makes their design decisions based on what they internally find useful, not what the users have requested.

I think the Evernote concept is pure genius. However, IMO, the implementation and UI, not so much.

fact: three column view in full screen mode. you even said it your first post in this thread :)

I didn't say "never". I said on rare occasion. OK. so here is one example.

evernote has a user forum, beta testing, and employees who regularly engage in discussions with users about features. do you think they do this just for show?

The User forum is mostly for users to help other users, particularly since the Evernote documentation is so lacking.

All of the EN Win and EN Mac beta testing is done through the forum, primarily to identify bugs, not to get feedback on design.

It is very clear that once they have made a design choice they are NOT interested in any feedback about it.

The last two EN Mac and EN Win betas have shown that.

i sympathize with your frustration. you know i have many feature requests. but, there is a difference between listening and obeying. we are talking about a major app with millions of users, and i not only expect them to make changes after long deliberation, but also to do what they think is best for the company, even if that means it isn't exactly what i want it to be.

Please don't put words in my mouth. I never said. nor do I expect, Evernote to implement every feature requested.

I not talking about the multitude of feature requests that have the support of only 1, or maybe 2 users.

I'm talking about features, and UI design, that has the support of many, many users over a very long time (years), made by both "power users" / frequent forum posters AND by users who have made only a few posts. I see some feature requests, like highlighting, that are made by many, many first-time users over years.

In both the EN Mac and EN Win clients, Evernote has chosen to spend considerable time giving us a change in the UI that doesn't add any new capability, nor does it make it easier to use, while there are a lot of highly supported feature requests pending. Development of the new UI continued even though 99%, if not all, of the users posting in the Beta 1 thread strongly objected to the new UI.

When the EN Mac Info Pop-over was first introduced in Beta 1, there were a lot of strong objections, particularly about the removal of the dates from the main Note panel. Even after extensive discussion and a survey that showed the large majority of posters needed to have the dates in editable field on the main note panel, Evernote pushed ahead with their design.

In both EN Mac and EN Win Evernote is introducing UI design changes that are very strange, non-standard yet provide no substantial benefit. Many object, but Evernote continues anyway.

Note that this is not about me, and not just my opinion. The original quote I made above by DLU was in response to another user who posted these same concerns.

GM. you are relatively new to these forums. After a while it will be more apparent that your campaigns for various features, like more options, will likely never occur, or at least not for a long while, or until the idea occurs to someone high up in Evernote.

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It is very clear that once they have made a design choice they are NOT interested in any feedback about it.

The last two EN Mac and EN Win betas have shown that.

...

In both the EN Mac and EN Win clients, Evernote has chosen to spend considerable time giving us a change in the UI that doesn't add any new capability, nor does it make it easier to use, while there are a lot of highly supported feature requests pending. Development of the new UI continued even though 99%, if not all, of the users posting in the Beta 1 thread strongly objected to the new UI.

When the EN Mac Info Pop-over was first introduced in Beta 1, there were a lot of strong objections, particularly about the removal of the dates from the main Note panel. Even after extensive discussion and a survey that showed the large majority of posters needed to have the dates in editable field on the main note panel, Evernote pushed ahead with their design.

So I don't think that's entirely fair. With the redesigned note info panel, we later on made dates visible and the rich text toolbar fades in when you click into the note body. That was a result of the feedback we got on the forums. It took a lot of work, we scrapped a lot of design and planning that was already done (even when you guys get a Beta, there's other work that's done but not yet released). So that was a bit painful, but I went around and argued it was necessary and caused a big scramble. For example, it caused us to be late with that release, QA and some other folks had to rearrange their schedules because our new release date collided with another platform's release.

Anways, back to dates. With that I saw two sets of needs needs.

1. Dates need to be visible so we can reference them when we look at the note.

2. Dates need to be easily and quickly editable, the big use case being people who are going paperless and want create dates to match the document date (not the date they scanned it in).

We ended up addressing #1 and fell short of coming up with something that would address #2. At some point we'll come back and do another iteration on it. A few weeks ago I was randomly chatting about a few things with the team and we tossed around ideas so just because we aren't actively developing for it doesn't mean we've forgotten about it. I honestly believe that was is released now is a definite improvement over the old UI. It isn't perfect and we want to do more for it, but as a first draft of the new version, I think it is pretty good.

In both EN Mac and EN Win Evernote is introducing UI design changes that are very strange, non-standard yet provide no substantial benefit. Many object, but Evernote continues anyway.

Non-standard, perhaps. But I completely disagree about providing no substantial benefit. And I think that's something we just disagree on. If the team felt like we weren't substantially improving, we have plenty of other things to work on (as you've duly noted). If I didn't think it was really worth the effort, I'd go around flapping my arms and wielding print outs from the forum (this may or may not have happened in the past). But I do think we're overall doing the right thing.

I wouldn't say that forum input has minimal impact. A lot gets read and discussed offline. The Windows devs comment a lot on threads about when issues are resolved or fixed. Our QA lead does the same for Windows and Mac bugs. A lot of our opinions get formed based on how forum users seem to be using Evernote. (Part of the reason why I try to ask that as much as possible is for future reference). A good number of features that Windows had, finally made their way over to the Mac client. The forums are quite impactful at Evernote. If they weren't going to be, I'd be yelled at for spending so much time here.

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Anways, back to dates. With that I saw two sets of needs needs.

1. Dates need to be visible so we can reference them when we look at the note.

2. Dates need to be easily and quickly editable, the big use case being people who are going paperless and want create dates to match the document date (not the date they scanned it in).

We ended up addressing #1 and fell short of coming up with something that would address #2. At some point we'll come back and do another iteration on it. A few weeks ago I was randomly chatting about a few things with the team and we tossed around ideas so just because we aren't actively developing for it doesn't mean we've forgotten about it.

This is great news. Thanks for the detailed and specific feedback!

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In both EN Mac and EN Win Evernote is introducing UI design changes that are very strange, non-standard yet provide no substantial benefit. Many object, but Evernote continues anyway.

Non-standard, perhaps. But I completely disagree about providing no substantial benefit. And I think that's something we just disagree on. If the team felt like we weren't substantially improving, we have plenty of other things to work on (as you've duly noted). If I didn't think it was really worth the effort, I'd go around flapping my arms and wielding print outs from the forum (this may or may not have happened in the past). But I do think we're overall doing the right thing.

Once upon a time, green screens and numbered menu choices were standard.

Once upon a time, one button mice were standard, and there were no right-click menus.

Standards are useful, but standards change. And they're not one-size-fits-all. The new changes may not be standard, but I can see the possible benefit for some users, and so I'll willing to wait out the period where they get polished up. BTW, 'the so-called 'many' who object seems like a gross exaggeration; how many is 'many' really?

[Amused to picture dlu shaking forum printouts at dismayed, frightened developers :)]

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[Amused to picture dlu shaking forum printouts at dismayed, frightened developers :)]

Haha, I don't think they're ever frightened of me. Perhaps there's some "Why-is-this-crazy-person-in-charge-of-anything-at-all?" looks here and there. But I'm hoping I'm just imagining that

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Hi - joined up at the forums - after years of using evernote - to express my concern with the new 'card' view.

I use evernote to store a tagged collection of reference images.

The thumbnail view was perfect for this purpose. It is easy to scroll through and quickly find the image I am after.

The card view is horrible: cropped images, extraneous 'card' ui, large and overbearing text.

In its current iteration, evernote is no longer useful for my purposes.

Anyone know of an alternate app that allows you to store a large number of images, tagged, and viewable in thumbnails?

(Other than iphoto - I need to separate my reference library from my photo library)

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Hi - joined up at the forums - after years of using evernote - to express my concern with the new 'card' view.

I use evernote to store a tagged collection of reference images.

The thumbnail view was perfect for this purpose. It is easy to scroll through and quickly find the image I am after.

The card view is horrible: cropped images, extraneous 'card' ui, large and overbearing text.

In its current iteration, evernote is no longer useful for my purposes.

Anyone know of an alternate app that allows you to store a large number of images, tagged, and viewable in thumbnails?

(Other than iphoto - I need to separate my reference library from my photo library)

hi. welcome to the forums!

as far as i can tell, the thumbnail view still exists. while the card view may not be useful for your purposes, i believe you can still use the thumbnail one in both regular and full screen modes.

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Hi - joined up at the forums - after years of using evernote - to express my concern with the new 'card' view.

I use evernote to store a tagged collection of reference images.

The thumbnail view was perfect for this purpose. It is easy to scroll through and quickly find the image I am after.

The card view is horrible: cropped images, extraneous 'card' ui, large and overbearing text.

In its current iteration, evernote is no longer useful for my purposes.

Anyone know of an alternate app that allows you to store a large number of images, tagged, and viewable in thumbnails?

(Other than iphoto - I need to separate my reference library from my photo library)

hi. welcome to the forums!

as far as i can tell, the thumbnail view still exists. while the card view may not be useful for your purposes, i believe you can still use the thumbnail one in both regular and full screen modes.

Where is thumbnail view? I've seen a lot of people complaining that card view replaced thumbnail view.

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Hi - joined up at the forums - after years of using evernote - to express my concern with the new 'card' view.

I use evernote to store a tagged collection of reference images.

The thumbnail view was perfect for this purpose. It is easy to scroll through and quickly find the image I am after.

The card view is horrible: cropped images, extraneous 'card' ui, large and overbearing text.

In its current iteration, evernote is no longer useful for my purposes.

Anyone know of an alternate app that allows you to store a large number of images, tagged, and viewable in thumbnails?

(Other than iphoto - I need to separate my reference library from my photo library)

hi. welcome to the forums!

as far as i can tell, the thumbnail view still exists. while the card view may not be useful for your purposes, i believe you can still use the thumbnail one in both regular and full screen modes.

Where is thumbnail view? I've seen a lot of people complaining that card view replaced thumbnail view.

In the menu. View -> Thumbnail. Evernote 3.0.7 Beta 5.

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@GM: Although it is still labeled "Thumbnail" in the View menu, the view shown is actually the new "Card" view.

Previously, the Thumbnail view showed a large thumbnail image if the Note contained an image.

Quote from DLU at the start of this thread:

Hello Mac users!

We have a new Beta 5 that I hope many of you will enjoy. We are introducing Card View which replaces thumbnail view.

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@GM: Although it is still labeled "Thumbnail" in the View menu, the view shown is actually the new "Card" view.

Previously, the Thumbnail view showed a large thumbnail image if the Note contained an image.

Quote from DLU at the start of this thread:

Hello Mac users!

We have a new Beta 5 that I hope many of you will enjoy. We are introducing Card View which replaces thumbnail view.

I'm confused. There is no "card" view (as far as I can tell) anywhere in the menu, or anywhere in the ui. My understanding was that "card view" referred to the big icons (cards as opposed to thumbnails) within the thumbnail view. In other words, instead of having one thumbnail size, we now have two. I just figured dlu misspoke.

BUT, now I think I was wrong. If I put the cursor over the icons in the center pane, it says "large cards" and "small cards". I would say Evernote ought to change the menu from "thumbnail view" to "card view" if they really plan to go forward with this.

Of course, as always, I am not especially keen on losing features and having them replaced with new ones, even if I never use the thumbnail view myself. In this case, since the small cards look just like the thumbnails did (in my memory) I don't get what we gain from calling them cards now. Judging by how upset some people are, I am guess that there is a problem of some sort now with the image displayed.

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I just updated to 3.0.7 beta 5 (from 3.0.6) last night, and this is what I now see. Though that says thumbnail, isn't that card view?

EDIT: I posted this before seeing there was a page 4 to this conversation. JMichael already established what I thought.

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I've been crashing every time I close the computer the last few days.

Ticket #16051-88532 mac beta crash 3.0.7.5

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I've been crashing every time I close the computer the last few days.

What do you mean by "close the computer"?

  1. Close the lid
  2. Put in sleep mode
  3. Shutdown

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I've been crashing every time I close the computer the last few days.

What do you mean by "close the computer"?

  1. Close the lid
  2. Put in sleep mode
  3. Shutdown

close the lid, which puts it in sleep mode.

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moderators, based upon the various comments here, what are your inclinations regarding card view? or more specifically, the possible return of thumbnail view (irrespective of card view)?

because of reduced image-size, if thumbnail view isn't coming back, I frankly need to start looking for a replacement immediately (which also means I'll no longer require premium membership).

thanks.

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+1 on the new card view. It is really useful for goals and inspirations.

Can you please add a simple drop down option to search to quickly switch between full search and just in title search?

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+1 on the new card view. It is really useful for goals and inspirations.

That's interesting. Would you mind sharing what it is about the Card view, as opposed to the Snippet view, that makes it work for goals and inspirations?

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That's interesting. Would you mind sharing what it is about the Card view, as opposed to the Snippet view, that makes it work for goals and inspirations?

Places I want to go to is an example:

https://skitch.com/s...s/811wp/travel1

https://skitch.com/s...s/811wu/travel2

Thanks for posting this example. It is very helpful.

This has changed my opinion about the new Card view.

It appears to me that the Card view offers these advantages:

  1. When the Note contains only an image, the Card view displays a thumbnail of the image equal to, or better than, the old "Thumbnail" view.
  2. Card view is shown in the same pane as the Snippet view, which also shows the Note content panel.
    • This allows the user to easily and quickly click through the Notes shown in the Card view panel, displaying the full image in the Note panel.

[*]The Card view provides a similar capability that is in electronic photo albums/libraries that display a number of thumbnails for the user to select from

[*]When both text and image are in the Note, the Card view displays both.

Bottom line is that the Thumbnail view is not removed -- it is included in the Card View.

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three bugs:

1. when moving a large number of notes from one notebook to another (in this case, i have to be offline for a while, so need to create an offline notebook -- i really wish we had offline tags...) at some point you stop being able to drag them into the notebook, even after the syncing and indexing is completed.

2. several crashes during this process (report sent)

3. notes appear in one notebook even though they are in another. in other words, the header says they are in the other notebook, and i moved it there, but it is still in the original notebook.

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  • Bottom line is that the Thumbnail view is not removed -- it is included in the Card View.

I thought the same thing but found that is not true. See this post as an example of how the actual note thumbnails are different from Thumbnail view to Card View.

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  • Bottom line is that the Thumbnail view is not removed -- it is included in the Card View.

I thought the same thing but found that is not true. See this post as an example of how the actual note thumbnails are different from Thumbnail view to Card View.

Well, your example and the one below seem to show different results.

I suspect it may have something to do with the Max OS version.

I believe the example below is using Mac Lion 10.7.3.

The below example clearly shows that the Card View provides an excellent, large thumbnail image of the image in the Note.

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  • Bottom line is that the Thumbnail view is not removed -- it is included in the Card View.

I thought the same thing but found that is not true. See this post as an example of how the actual note thumbnails are different from Thumbnail view to Card View.

The example you posted earlier looks incorrect. What sizes are those images? Does text show up properly?

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  • Bottom line is that the Thumbnail view is not removed -- it is included in the Card View.

I thought the same thing but found that is not true. See this post as an example of how the actual note thumbnails are different from Thumbnail view to Card View.

there's another example at the bottom of this post.

or, to cut to the chase, here's the link to the example screenshots: http://i742.photobuc...bnailvscard.png

(NOTE that in card view, some of the actual content of the photos is cut off, in order to make the thumbnail images the same size.)

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The example you posted earlier looks incorrect. What sizes are those images? Does text show up properly?

My images are cut off like that too. Particularly annoying when it's a picture of a person and their head is chopped off so you just see a torso. Or a landmark whose most recognizable features have been cropped out.

And, as mentioned before, if there are multiple images within a note, a random one will be chosen to for display on the card. Say I have three pictures in a note: the front of a building (first), the side of a building (second), and the back of a building (third). In card view, sometimes I see the front, sometimes I see the side, and a lot of time I see the back.

The thumbnail view was so efficient. This is just a mess. More than four years of using Evernote and this is just frustrating.

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DLU, I think this has been pointed out before, but this BUG acknowledged by Heather last year is really causing me (and I suspect a lot of others) a lot of pain.

Would much appreciate it you could get this fixed soon.

After you create a Saved Search, there is no way (in EN Mac) to View or Edit the definition of the Saved Search

I hope this will be relatively easy to fix since:

  • It works in EN Win, so you know the algorithm
  • It is simply editing text -- the Search Terms stored in the Saved Search

Thanks.

The lack of ability to access the edit feature for saved searches in the current design of the Mac client has been acknowledged as a bug, and a fix is being discussed internally.

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Evernote’s notes disappeared — but Evernote didn’t crash.

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