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(Archived) When to use a new notebook

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Thanks for a great application, truly amazing.

I was wonder when you would use a new notebook as opposed to, say keeping everything in one? Since everything can be tagged and searched so wonderfully, is there a need of multiple notebooks? Now I realize that, yes there is, but I'm really curious what everyones opinion is? Or maybe there is a limit to the number of notes per notebook?

Thanks,

Matthew

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Thanks for a great application, truly amazing.

I was wonder when you would use a new notebook as opposed to, say keeping everything in one? Since everything can be tagged and searched so wonderfully, is there a need of multiple notebooks? Now I realize that, yes there is, but I'm really curious what everyones opinion is? Or maybe there is a limit to the number of notes per notebook?

Thanks,

Matthew

I use multiple notebooks.

1 for "work stuff"

1 for "Phone camera photos"

1 for "General stuff"

If I was forced to dump everything in one notebook, I would find it very difficult to find Evernote useful, so I'm glad we all have the option open :(

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"Notebooks" and "Tags" are two different metaphors that are used (with different names) in various pieces of software. Differences:

Notebooks are places where you put a note. Every note is in exactly one notebook ... you can't have a note without a notebook, or a note in multiple notebooks without copying the note. This type of UI metaphor is also used for things like "folders" in an OS or a mail system.

A tag is something you stick on a note, and they're more free-form ... a note may have any number of tags, including 0. This metaphor is becoming more popular in organizational systems, since it gives more logical flexibility (but less inherent structure).

We've found that there are certain people who like to use exclusive containers (like notebooks) to organize things. They know that every note is in one of their notebooks, and it's not in any of the others, so they have a clean organization with no ambiguity.

Other people really like tags, and they frequently only have one or two notebooks. Notes have a handful of tags each, so that each concept can be grouped and organized.

Generally, people tend to prefer the notebook/folder metaphor or the tag/category/label metaphor, and there's enough people on both sides of the line, that we felt like we needed to support both.

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Hi,

I must reckon I am a Tag hierarchy lover. (just to mention my personal position)

But even if I were not, I am completely disagreeing with Dengberg (and EN3) view of Notebooks/tags.

If you have EN 2, where only tags exists, you had the freedom of organizing them also into "Work", "Home", "Photo stuff", "Leisure", whatever.

The grace of the tagging in EN2 was that you had a true parent-child relationship and thus could select "Work", and have only these notes selected, in every subfolder. On top of that, you were able to unselect any of the subtags, add some from other part of the hierarchy, use a search on top of the selection etc...

So you had on one side the posibility of having your "traditional" organization (with Parent collapsible tags), and a freedom never seen in any system. All that with no limits, beeing able to copy a tag from one parent to another, etc...

And the whole system was non restrictive, and coherent as any.

I understand that people might like to have a more rigid structure (with the notebooks) to help them organize or keep things separate. But this is, in fact, restrictive, and in my view, obeys to the fact that the "true" tag hierarchy existing in EN2 has been eliminated in EN3.

You do not have a real Parent-child relationship in EN3. The hierarchy is esthetical only. If you create a "Parent-like" tag, and put some subfolders beneath it, selecting the parent is like selecting any other tag in a flat tree...it will only give you the notes with THAT tag, not the possibility of having the subtags selected aswell, etc.

The copying of tags has been eliminated, the tag organization is not notebook dependent (which would help you organize everything even better). In fact, no matter what notebook you are working at, you always see the whole tag list....which is weird as we could ask ourselves why a notebook "Work" still shows all the tags of "Home" or "photostuff"...or "Anatomy"

So I feel the decision might be stated as a benefit for some users, but I see it as a restriction. And obviously, it is easier to program, and probably easier to transport on more restrictive platforms as Mobile, for instance.

But it is true that the "Tag paradigm" has been hard to understand for users in EN2 BECAUSE it has been imposed to us by Apple and by Windows, but once understood, there is nothing that can compare to it. And we all felt quite frustrated with the new EN3 Notebook paradigm and the supression of the most powerfull feature of EN2, namely the true hierarchic organization of tags.

When Dengberg says about the tagging: "it gives more logical flexibility (but less inherent structure)" he states a very good point. It is effectively much more powerful than any other, and more "human-like" in its logic. And it has not, in my opinion, less inherent structure. It is a tree-like structure like any other one, except that it is better implemented and goes deeper in the structure.

In fact, tags are just keywords.... no wonder at all. They exist since the early days of database management (Dbase II) in Apple II systems in the 1978???

The great idea was to give them a structure, and a highly functional one. The idea of the tree in EN2 is simply wonderful (and a Copernical revolution).

And more important, it is more like we, humans, think.

In folders, it is the machine (and the programmer) who obliges you to be organized. With tags, it is YOU who decide, change your mind, reorganize, as YOU wish and based on YOUR particular way (or structure) of thinking.

I hope that, with the progress of the different OS, someday we will see this amazing functionality back.

it is power, creativity, simplicity at hand and at work.

Just my point of view,

Regards

Tom

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When I say in my last post

But it is true that the "Tag paradigm" has been hard to understand for users in EN2 BECAUSE it has been imposed to us by Apple and by Windows

it should read

But it is true that the "Tag paradigm" has been hard to understand for users in EN2 BECAUSE the STRICT FOLDER PARADIGM has been imposed to us by Apple and by Windows.....

Sorry :?

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Back to the original question: Use a separate notebook when it makes sense to you. I use ONE notebook for all my stuff, personal and work related. can imagine some might want to separate it say for instance if there was a chance you might have to leave work related stuff behind if you should ever quit the job. If you share a db it makes sense too. Perhaps you're just a neat freak and want it that way.

Other reason might be to keep the size down, I imagine if you store a boat load of photos in a db the size might grow quite large and slow down lading and searching a tad.

I could envision a few more scenarios but I think you get the picture.

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I guess an easy way that I can put it is this:

I look at each notebook in Evernote as a partition on my hard drive and tags as the folders in that partition.

On a hard drive, I might have one partition just for pictures, another for programs, another for documents, etc.

On Evernote, my partitions (notebooks) are all separated in similar fashion and the items I add to each notebook will still be assigned a tag (much like how I would put files in their own directories), etc.

I don't think there's a right or wrong way to use evernote... each user will keep their data organized in their own way. :)

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I think that the notebooks are great. I use them to seperate the notebooks in main topics. Also I like the ability to seperate my public notebooks.

In fact, no matter what notebook you are working at, you always see the whole tag list....which is weird as we could ask ourselves why a notebook "Work" still shows all the tags of "Home" or "photostuff"...or "Anatomy" - ThomasStraten

I totally agree with Thomas! I only want to see tags that I have created in my notebook, not all tags. I only want to see all tags when "all notebooks" has been selected. I hope that this will be fixed in the near future...

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I think that the notebooks are great. I use them to seperate the notebooks in main topics. Also I like the ability to seperate my public notebooks.
In fact, no matter what notebook you are working at, you always see the whole tag list....which is weird as we could ask ourselves why a notebook "Work" still shows all the tags of "Home" or "photostuff"...or "Anatomy" - ThomasStraten

I totally agree with Thomas! I only want to see tags that I have created in my notebook, not all tags. I only want to see all tags when "all notebooks" has been selected. I hope that this will be fixed in the near future...

A lot of us have been asking for this one for a while. I hate clicking on a tag and nothing happens, because there are no notes with that tag in that notebook.

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I hate clicking on a tag and nothing happens, because there are no notes with that tag in that notebook.

What client are you talking about here? E.g. in Windows client, such "empty" tags are displayed in gray color, while non-empty ones are black. So you can easily capture what tags are related to the notebook, and which are not.

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Dear Iafanasyev

You touched an important point here stating:

What client are you talking about here? E.g. in Windows client, such "empty" tags are displayed in gray color, while non-empty ones are black. So you can easily capture what tags are related to the notebook, and which are not.

In Windows, they are greyed and we don't have multiple selection. But the searches work best

In the Web, they are NOT greyed, we have multiple selection, and the saved seaches are problematic (the infamous any: or any:*)

In the Mac, I don't know...(don't have one)

Your advise on the windows greying is of no use on the web. So what if we have to work more on the web than on Windows (because of obligation or so). If they are greyed (thru a function), why cannot the be simple not shown.... But they will on the web anyway.

Using a notebook, using tags, using saved searches are the core of EN3. The problem is, in which platform should we work?

While Web and Desktop (Mac or Windows) are dissimilar, we are in trouble.

So I think the relevant point is now to know when we will be able to work the same independently of the platform?

Best regards

Tom

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What is the point in having the unused tags grayed and visible? Please give us an example that shows that this is a good thing.

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What is the point in having the unused tags grayed and visible? Please give us an example that shows that this is a good thing.

You can manipulate them in normal ways: you can delete them, you can drag them to assign, you can move them around in the hierarchy, etc.

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What is the point in having the unused tags grayed and visible? Please give us an example that shows that this is a good thing.

Tags are greyed out dynamically, when they have no intersections with current selection. I.e. when you select one notebook, you see tags that has no notes in them as greyed out. If you select another notebook, a different set of tags will give zero intersections. If you additionally select some tag, only those tags that can be intersected are showin in black, and others are grey. This is a very convenient feature that allows you to visually explore your tags. If you select 'All notebooks' and see some tags greyed out, those are really unused ones. And, again, you can easily find those in the list, delete them if necessary, etc.

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Okay I get that, but the benefit in only having relevant tags visible is more valuable for me and I suspect that I am not the only one. How about to add this as an option that we can turn off and on?

You could also add the possibility that tags are related to the notebooks and not globally. That would make the tags more relevant for the different notebooks.

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You could also add the possibility that tags are related to the notebooks and not globally. That would make the tags more relevant for the different notebooks.

This has been asked for many times but unfortunately the Evernote team seem unwilling to give the facility for tags to be shown for only the selected notebook. For example, like many others I do not want tags that are only relevant for work showing on my personal notebook etc.

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Iafanasyiev says:

Tags are greyed out dynamically, when they have no intersections with current selection. I.e. when you select one notebook, you see tags that has no notes in them as greyed out. If you select another notebook, a different set of tags will give zero intersections. If you additionally select some tag, only those tags that can be intersected are showin in black, and others are grey. This is a very convenient feature that allows you to visually explore your tags. If you select 'All notebooks' and see some tags greyed out, those are really unused ones. And, again, you can easily find those in the list, delete them if necessary, etc.

I'd agree with him normally but the problem is more subtle... It only works to show me the possible intersections all right. But what if I want to select three tags of that notebook (intersecting some, others no)? I cannot!!!! As soon as I select ONE tag, it shows ONLY the intersecting...and I want to see my Information signalled by the three tags (General, Important, ToRead for instance)... No way!

The Web will not show the intersection, but will allow me to multi select. (And that is what we need more often!!!)

Please do the following. Use both the window and the web system at the same time (it is possible). And try to recreate the same situation in both...you will see the impossibilitites (and thus incongruency).

It makes no sense to build such an intersecting restriction in Windows upon selecting tags... too restrictive (and very frustrating for the user). You should find another way (like the intersection panel in EN2). Not because it is not useful, simply because we don't want to see a specialized tool in what we think is just a selecting tool (the tag multiclick)!!!

I don't think the EN team wants to oblige us to do some work on the windows system, and some other on the web.... So what do we do???

This is not negative thinking, it is a serious problem that has to be solved some way as there is no way, for the moment, to work well (adequately) on neither system as each one has its pro's and con's....

RESUME: There IS a difference between multiselection and intersection... and it should be the user who decides which of the two he wants to perform at any given time.

Best regards

Tom

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On my iMac, all the tags are the same, regardless of which notebook I'm in. None are grayed out. I'd prefer them to not show at all (or an option to do this) but being grayed out would at least be some help.

Thanks.

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but being grayed out would at least be some help.

Thanks.

Trust me. It will not help. They will still be annoying and useless...

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Certainly not the answer but how about moving your tags into groups according to databases? Only have the tags open that refer to that DB.

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I agree that tags should be specific to database. I use tags and I like that they are not exclusive buckets, i.e., a note can have multiple tags. I also want a personal database that is separate from a work database. But I don't want my personal tags in my work database. For example, I want a tag for "movies" in my personal database and I don't want it cluttering my work database. By "cluttering" I mean I don't want the tag selection list to include all tags from all databases. This makes it much hard to find tags. My only solution now is to bucket tags, meaning I can create a tag category (folder) called "personal" and put personal tags in that category. But I'd rather have distinct tags for each database.

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but being grayed out would at least be some help.

Thanks.

Trust me. It will not help. They will still be annoying and useless...

What if I thought they would help me, but not you. Would that be acceptable?

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I think we could perhaps wait until the EN team decides the final appearence and meaning of tags on the different platforms.

I would not suggest any wish beyond having things work with no errors, with the same functionality, on all platforms (Windows, Mac and Web)

- decision on tag multiselection

- saved search working the same (any: is not yet corrected)

- written search working as saved search (not the case actually)

While this is not taken as priority, EN should not modify anything else.

On one point I am sure: First multi selection must be provided and only then begin to think on intersection.

Just a matter of logic.

I am avoiding mentionning the mobile and Iphone as these might show differences due to different UI design)

Tom

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Thinking about the original discussion:

I find tags really, really frustrating and annoying. In any application. So I use a lot of new notebooks.

Tags require extra work to apply. They require that I come up with some clever system for tagging. And if I forget to tag, later I can not find an item. I just don't get the tagging "paradigm", and every time I try to use it, I just get frustrated. Have had similar trouble in iPhoto for this reason.

I want to write my note and drop it in a notebook.

I have 18 Notebooks (Work, WebComics, Blogging Work, Receipts, etc.)

I have 0 tags.

If someone has advice on how I could be a tagging convert, I'm all ears!

Actually, I really wish I could have folders... putting four notebooks into a single folder. For example: I am using Evernote as my primary word processor. I would like to keep all the chapters of a novel in a single notebook, and but that notebook in a folder named, "Novels".

-d

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Thinking about the original discussion:

I find tags really, really frustrating and annoying. In any application. So I use a lot of new notebooks.

Tags require extra work to apply. They require that I come up with some clever system for tagging. And if I forget to tag, later I can not find an item. I just don't get the tagging "paradigm", and every time I try to use it, I just get frustrated. Have had similar trouble in iPhoto for this reason.

I want to write my note and drop it in a notebook.

I have 18 Notebooks (Work, WebComics, Blogging Work, Receipts, etc.)

I have 0 tags.

If someone has advice on how I could be a tagging convert, I'm all ears!

Actually, I really wish I could have folders... putting four notebooks into a single folder. For example: I am using Evernote as my primary word processor. I would like to keep all the chapters of a novel in a single notebook, and but that notebook in a folder named, "Novels".

-d

Tag all your chapters "Chapter". Then put them in a single notebook.

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Tags....

In short, they are a way to classify below several related (or absolutely unrelated) concepts.

Example.

In a Home (or Personal) Notebook

I have an expense cause I bought an Ipod to my daughter Lorena

Note Title: Gift Loly

Content:

"I bought Ipod (num of serie:, etc.) cost: 200.-"

Tags: Ipod, Expense, Lorena

I then remember the store where I bought it (just in case I need to send it because of a failure)

I make another note:

Title: Store XXX (the name)

Contents: The store where I bought the Ipod was ......adress, phone or web clip of the store). It's Michael Cane who sold it to me, good fellow, big n fat, 60's"

Tags: Ipod, Lorena, (eventually a tag called "Where" that could relate to adresses I want to keep, name of store maybe)

OH LORD, I have a problem, the IPOD is not working, I make a new note

Title: Ipod's failure

Contents: It seems to me the battery won't charge (or discharge too quickly).

Tags: Ipod, Problems

I bring the Ipod to the store, they give me a receipt for the Ipod in technical service

Title: Ipod's repair

Content: the picture of the paper they gave me with the order of technical service

Tag: Ipod, Problems, Receipt (I tend to separate Receipt from expenses!!)

They call me to say it will be free of charge and will be ready in one week

I make a to-do note (not using the built-in todo that is not yet usable in my opinion)

Title: Ipod ready

Contents: Ipod will be ready on xx-xx-xxxx

Tag:Ipod, Problems, TO_DO (yes, I like to have a tag called To_do while the to-do feature of EN is in work)

That would be all for the Ipod...... If it works ok, need no note. If it doesn't, I would keep making notes until they change the Ipod (garantee) etc,,,

And as I have "Problems" as a tag, I can use it if I have a problem with my car, the vet, the kitchen....

I can tag also my expenses in each of the mentionned, and keep my receipt and my expenses.

I can even make a poem about the Problems I have with my wife, (I'd create a tag with her name...)

Tags are of use because it is very likely I would never gather all the desired info just by searching. I could search by "ipod", true....but what if I did not write that word in the title or the note? What if the Recognition of the image of the receipts doesn't work or does not say Ipod but "Product Num:1123-111". By tagging, I am sure of the recovery of all my relevant info. I can get Lorena's results of school, her medical history, and whatever....

I can recall every item I bought to the store

I got my expenses and (or) their related receipts.

This is the simplest use of tags, just as illustration.

Thinkf of them now in your work, what is relate to what, by how many relations...etc...

Good luck

Tom

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