(Archived) New "monthly upload allowance" discussion topic

[engberg 89]

We've updated the Evernote Beta to remove the temporary "total storage limit" for accounts, and replaced it with a permanent system that is based on a "monthly upload allowance" with no total limit. This is described in this announcement:

viewtopic.php?f=36&t=6617

And you can get more information from this blog post:

http://blog.evernote.com/2008/06/14/mon ... allowance/

I've created this topic (which will be "sticky" for a week) to clarify the details of this new quota system. Feel free to ask any related questions here.

[mugpet 0]

I don't like the ida. Now I have to think about what I add and delete. I like the fact that I can add and delete notes as i please, without thinking about my monthly upload cap.

Why not keeping it simple. 1 GB limit for free subscription and unlimited for premium users... or something like that?

Evernote still rocks though ;-)

Regards,

Mugo

[engberg 89]

Evernote intends to be a lifetime memory service - so you can keep using us for years. A total storage limit, even 1GB, means that you would never be able to add new content after you hit this limit.

With the new system, Free users would be able to exceed 1GB of storage after a couple of years. As noted in the blog (http://blog.evernote.com/2008/06/14/mon ... allowance/), we plan to offer vastly higher monthly limits for Premium users in the near future, for only a few dollars a month.

[CypherGary 0]

I'm just thinking outloud.

With todays economy, it is hard to justify monthly subscriptions.

Just as an idea, I would think having a bunch of people just paying a couple dollars a month for quite a bit of increased limits, and quite a few paying a few dollard for 'vastly higher monthly limits' would be better than just the quite a few with the one plan.

I intend to switch to the paying plan just because I like the service, and want it to succeed, but in these times there are a bunch of people that will have a hard time justifing the expense. (Michigan is in bad shape, economically)

-Gary

[engberg 89]

We're definitely aiming to keep the total price of Premium subscriptions low, with a discounted annual plan, etc. The actual numbers will be available Real Soon Now, so it probably makes sense to wait until then to discuss whether they're tuned correctly.

Thanks

[themoules 3]

Oh no - Another dissapointment!

Just as I was about to start loading a load of reference material (with graphics!) you hit us with a punative upload limit. Now I have no choice but to use a local notebook with all the backup trauma associated with that.

It would have helped if the dear Evernote team could have warned their loyal beta testers with a warning! Does this mean a shortage of Cloud Server space?

Evernote is becoming a real Love/Hate relationship.

As for the earlier comment about subscriptions. Some of us have old fashioned ideas about monthly subscriptions. I hate them.

Could you look at the possibility of a "Pay as you go" alternative where we buy a Gb of storage at a time?

[DeanM 0]

Well, I'm interested to find out what you're going to be charging, but your plan seems fair to me. This is a business and you have to have some way to earn money. Not everything on the internet can be free.

I think themoules has a good idea though: You could have a one-time, one-month option. Maybe I have a big project I'm working on and I'm going to need more space for the next month, I could purchase that instead of going through the hassle of getting a subscription and then canceling it. Or as another option with that one-time fee, I would get some buffer zone above the monthly limit until I used up that extra space.

[mugpet 0]

Hi again,

I think that it is fair that free users have a GB limit and adds on their public notes.

Sins I expect to get my self a premium subscription. This is my wishlist:

1. Yearly subscriptions. I hate monthly subscriptions.

2. Unlimited og close to unlimited storage on notes.

3. No adds in public notes.

regards,

Mugo

[engberg 89]

1. Yearly subscriptions. I hate monthly subscriptions.

2. Unlimited og close to unlimited storage on notes.

3. No adds on public notes.

Thanks for the feedback. We will offer an annual option for Premium accounts (instead of monthly), and there will be no upper limit on total number/size of notes -- other than the indirect limit created by the monthly upload limits. I.e. a Free user could have almost 1GB of notes after two years, and a Premium user could theoretically have many GB after only a year. (Details coming really soon, I promise.)

We're definitely considering #3 ... no ads on public notes in the notebooks of Premium users. We're doing a lot of work in general to improve our Public Notebook offering -- a UI facelift, the embeddable "widget", etc.

Thanks

[cr5595 1]

After I initially create a note, I frequently find myself going back to the note and editing it.

How does this work with the new system? If I clip something from the web and then go back to the note later and mark it up, am I going to get hit twice to upload the original web clip? What about adding a tag?

[engberg 89]

After I initially create a note, I frequently find myself going back to the note and editing it.

How does this work with the new system? If I clip something from the web and then go back to the note later and mark it up, am I going to get hit twice to upload the original web clip? What about adding a tag?

You're only "charged" for the increased size of the note, if it gets bigger. I.e. if you add any images to the note, those will be counted against your quota. If you edit the text of the note, and the net size of the note text is bigger, then that will be counted.

So if you clip a web page and then only do a little light editing (without adding any images/audio/pdf to it), that will only "cost" a negligible amount, if at all.

[dudekracked 0]

hi dengberg,

i like the new storage system! this is better than having a definitive quota!

i have a request for the free subscription, would it be possible for the monthly upload allowance to add up each month?

[mugpet 0]

Quick question.

What happens to the allowance, if you add a note and sync. Then edit some text away from the note and sync again. And then add some text again?

For me it seems that the usage will constantly grow when working with the notes.

[engberg 89]

i have a request for the free subscription, would it be possible for the monthly upload allowance to add up each month?

Currently, we don't plan to "roll over" upload limit MB from one month to the next. If you need a lot of quota to upload in one month, you can always just pay us a few dollars for that month, and then cancel after...

[engberg 89]

What happens to the allowance, if you add a note and sync. Then edit some text away from the note and sync again. And then add some text again?

This is basically the same as the question from cr5595 ... if you paste War and Peace into a note, and then sync, that will reduce your available quota by ~4MB. Then, if you add a paragraph to the end and sync, your quota will only be reduced by a few bytes ... just the amount that the note grew, not the full size of the note.

[ThomasStraten 0]

With all due respect,

We are still with a Beta version where there a lots of defects to be fixed and promises to be kept.

But we are already with "allowances" and thinking of payment for quota?

:shock:

Tom

[engberg 89]

Yes, Tom. The old "total storage" allowance has been replaced with a "monthly upload" allowance, which ensures that you can continue to grow your usage of Evernote without hitting a total storage limit that stops you from using Evernote.

We definitely intend to keep improving Evernote, but a very large number of people use the Evernote Beta every day, and they've uploaded millions of notes into the service. We plan to start accepting payments shortly for people who are happy enough with the current offering to need more than 40MB of new notes per month. If you don't meet this description, then you can continue to use Evernote Beta at the Free level indefinitely.

[ThomasStraten 0]

I am keeping my database down as I still Betatest.

Tom

[ghoti 0]

It would be interesting to do a little poll to see what people do with EverNote. Does such a thread exist? I'm new to the forum and am only finding my way around here.

I mostly use it for text notes, plus the odd image and PDF. That might change, but I doubt that I'll want to drop all my PDFs into EverNote. So 40MB goes a long way for me. Having said that, I'd be more than happy to pay for a product I use and like, even if I don't need more "allowance." Something like $5/month (and perhaps $50 per year) would be pretty doable if the program is stable and development remains active. This looks like a pretty interesting product, and it will be interesting to watch it grow and develop (yeah, I haven't been around for long with EverNote, I have no idea what people talk about when they refer to "EverNote 2.2" and such - so please don't laugh at my ignorance of EN's history).

[iafanasyev 1]

It would be interesting to do a little poll to see what people do with EverNote. Does such a thread exist?

See this: http://blog.evernote.com/2008/05/07/how ... -evernote/

[ThomasStraten 0]

There is a much more interesting thread about how people (power users) were using Evernote 2.2.1 in professional aplications ranging from Medical to philosophy, plus some much more trivial stuff like expenses, todos, clippings from the desktop etc... our complete life!!!!

Please look at :

viewforum.php?f=23 How Do I Use EverNote?

and

viewforum.php?f=22 What EverNote Does for Me...

This is why we are expecting EN3 to become a better 2.2.1 (but there is lots of things to do to beat 2.2.1). Time will tell

Tom

[catshanghai 0]

It is reasonable that heavy users of the Evernote service pay more than casual or light users. After all, Evernote is a business and not a charity.

40 mb a month seems very low if users intend to add scanned images, photographs and multimedia. That is not a problem for text. The whole point of cloud computing is to have a digital repository on the Internet where all of your information can live so you can retrieve it from any device that happens to be on the Internet. The great thing about your service is that it serves up cloud computing in a way that is appropriate for whatever device is using Evernote whether it is a browser, the desktop client or from a cellphone.

I don't want to fracture my digital notetaking experience. I would like a secure, central place where all my digital scribbles and notes can live. A small monthly limit that I may exceed means that I will take a note at work or at home that cannot be synced to my online notebooks. I can foresee a time when I don't sync a note that I later miss when I move from my computer at home to one at work and vice versa.

I know we are still in beta, but I would happily pay a small monthly premium to have significantly more than 40 mb a month. A flat rate all you can eat plan or a more flexible Amazon style tariff based on bandwidth and storage would also be reasonable.

Would a work around for private notes be to store notes on a mapped Amazon S3 storage drive using webdav? Would that violate any TOS?

[engberg 89]

cat -

Thanks for the questions. We'll have the full details of our premium offering very soon, and you can check then whether that offering would meet your need. Obviously, 40MB would go pretty fast for a huge multi-pixel camera with no compression, but we think that the more average use case would let most people stay in the Free zone, but we think that Premium will be pretty reasonable compared to alternatives.

Thanks

[harbethuk 0]

Evernote looks very useful because I can access it anywhere in the world so far more useful than the original manifestation. Time is money, and I'm at the stage now where I need to have information at my fingertips. What I can't do is limit myself to a total database size, nor a monthly limit. The key to commercial success for Evernote is a creeping, incremental cost plan that lets all users balance cost v. convenience without horrendous penalty. Data is valuable, and there should be a cost model for Evernote that is fair and reasonable and slides up and down according the users needs.

[jardel182 0]

i think we (the beta testers) should have some more space for free when we leave beta, like 100MB. We are the early users, we recommended the service, we blogged about it, we spread the love, giving some more to the early users will be a good way to keep then loving the evernote evermore!

[GraceHoffert 0]

First of all, I love EverNote. I use it to capture thoughts, webpages I want to reference in the future as well as images. One of things I've experimented recently is capturing images of take out menu so I can access it on the go while at a friends' place.

Now to the main topic...

Short panic first... hm... Since the quota has been implemented (3 days ago)... I've already used close to 20 % of my quota... I realize the EverNote team has mentioned the pricing plan will be out soon... but what happens if I ran out of quota before that? In hind sight, maybe the 2 should have came out at the same time... quota and plan of how much you need to pay in addition to upgrade your quota...

Longer panic... has the team given any thought to allow users to link to other cloud storage services such as Amazon S3? In that case, the users definitely pay for how much they use in addition to the access traffic... I could see my usage greatly increase in the future once I get more accustomed to its features and don't want to be restricted by quota and size... there are definitely time where I could see spike usage...

[engberg 89]

Re: short panic ... see if you can make it a week with the 40MB limit. We should have details of the Premium offering out by then. If not, we should be able to accommodate people on a case-by-case basis.

Re: long panic ... most of the value of our service relies on keeping your data together with our application servers, so that they can perform searching and web access. Cold file storage isn't really the issue, it's the processing overhead to enable searching in text and images, etc., plus the availability, redundancy, etc. This is why we've shifted the quota from a "total storage" limit (which would be appropriate if hard disk space were the key issue) to a "new data added per month" limit.

Based on what you've described, your current usage would comfortably fit under the Premium subscription level, which will be a few dollars a month (with an option for per-year at a moderate discount). Check back in a week and I think we can address both short and long panics.

[johnlknight 0]

I am a new user to Evernote and I think it is the best thing since sliced bread, even better in fact, as I prefer baguettes!

I am happy to pay for Evernote, and the scheme that has been outlined seems fair.

However, I am a little confounded by this decision.

First, while Evernote is superb, it is still in Beta. It needs a lot of improvements, especially with the web-interface, but also with the Window client, before being taken out of beta.

Second, I'd like to know why Evernote announced only half the scheme i.e. the upload limit for free users but not the premium plan. It strikes me as shoddy organization and doesn't inspire confidence. I presume you were trying to gauge opinion, but I doubt if you've found out anything you didn't already know. the crunch will, of course, come when you name the price of the premium plan.

Cheers,

John

[engberg 89]

Second, I'd like to know why Evernote announced only half the scheme i.e. the upload limit for free users but not the premium plan. It strikes me as shoddy organization and doesn't inspire confidence. I presume you were trying to gauge opinion, but I doubt if you've found out anything you didn't already know. the crunch will, of course, come when you name the price of the premium plan.

The details will be available very soon now, but the short answer is that premium will give you vastly higher monthly limits for a few dollars a month.

We pushed out the update to the clients a little bit before we opened up the commerce system to just stagger the quantity of changes that were taking place in a given week ... this allowed us to track down a couple of problems (e.g. the Mac crashing bug) in the software before we started charging anyone for it. I.e. we're just trying to change all four wheels on the car while it's rolling, and were trying to just do two at a time.

Thanks again for the help testing the Beta, and the patience as we get the system into a final state.

[GBA 0]

This is such a polished beta that it is worth paying for. The choices described seem reasonable (assuming fair prices, which the market will ensure). My only concerns are (1) not being able to purchase enough upload capacity to meet my needs (sound like this won't be a problem) and (2) waking up some day to find Evernote down because the company has gone bankrupt. That is the real nightmare that accompanies using online storage services! So, please, charge us enough to be successful. So far, you seem to have a well thought out business plan. I hope I'm right, because your success makes my life much easier now - and I hope for many years to come. Thanks.

[wmmiller 0]

Something wasn't clear from that announcement: what happens if I hit the limit? Does the new note get added to my local database and just not synced? Or am I just not able to add the note at all? If it's the former, will it automatically be synced when the new month's quota kicks in?

Also, let's say I have 25K left and I try to add a 50K snapshot. Is it the case that that's rejected but I could still add a bunch of text notes? Or does it take that and then reject any further notes, regardless of how small?

[iafanasyev 1]

Something wasn't clear from that announcement: what happens if I hit the limit? Does the new note get added to my local database and just not synced? Or am I just not able to add the note at all? If it's the former, will it automatically be synced when the new month's quota kicks in?

Also, let's say I have 25K left and I try to add a 50K snapshot. Is it the case that that's rejected but I could still add a bunch of text notes? Or does it take that and then reject any further notes, regardless of how small?

When you hit the limit, you will not be able to add new notes into synchronized notebook, or add new resources (e.g. images, PDF files) into existing notes in synchronized notebook, or edit notes in the synchronized notebook to make them bigger (e.g. you can't add a new char to a note, but you can delete one char first and then add another char). This applies to synchronized notebooks only; Local notebooks have no limits and can be used freely to add/modify notes.

Please note that this will happen when you reach 100% of the quota; before that, application will give you a notice when you hit 50%, 75% and 95% of the quota, so you could upgrade before the limits will take effect.

Also, let's say I have 25K left and I try to add a 50K snapshot. Is it the case that that's rejected but I could still add a bunch of text notes?

Yes, that's correct.

[GraceHoffert 0]

Thanks Dave for addressing my panics... I realize some of them are a bit pre-mature (such as worrying about reaching the limit when I'm not there yet)...

While I discuss the merits of deployment of quota system without the price plan, he explains a simple reason that I didn't even consider... how do you know how much extra monthly upload allowance if you don't know how much you're using? ... furthermore, he also suggests the possibility of EverNote not knowing what is a good monthly upload allowance for free users... he suggested by deploying the quota system first, users can know how much they are actually using or how much they need... EverNote will know much is an adequate free EverNote upload allowance... then EverNote can adjust the pricing plan for premium users after they get all their numbers... to avoid people from panicing, EverNote could simply not strongly enforce the quota by allowing people to go over the quota by a little bit...

While I'm not opposed to paying for premium monthly upload allowance... I have an alternative pricing structure I like to suggest... why doesn't EverNote just charge people for however much upload they do? For example, every month, I get a statement from Amazon S3 detailing how much bandwidth and storage I use on their server... I get charged only for what I use... nothing more... nothing less... EverNote could also charge for how much people upload... so in the case where you need extra/spike upload for a particular month, you don't have to worry about upgrading account for that one month and potentially downgrading it on the next month... not sure how easy it is to implement this...

Paying monthly for a cellphone service for X number of minutes sometimes makes me look at the numbers a bit more closely... am I under using my account... I'm paying more per minute by not fully utilizing the service... Having a variable cost and only charge for what I use makes the most sense for me but it makes it really hard for companies to predict their profit... Bahh... economic stuff usually make my head hurt a bit...

[johnlknight 0]

This is such a polished beta that it is worth paying for.

I disagree. The core functionality [saving and synching] is excellent , but the Windows client needs a lot of improvement, and, quite frankly, the web service is rubbish.

[mugpet 0]

I just want to upload as much as I want and as often as I want!

It's not like we are uploading movies, so why all the fuss with upload caps?

Generally i think that the focus on upload limit is misplaced. If you look at Google Docs and Zoho, they don't even mention upload limits. What happens when Google and Zoho adds Google Gears to their notebook? One of the strongest features in Evernote is that you can have offline notes and access them from anywhere.

[crane 40]

I just want to upload as much as I want and as often as I want!

It's not like we are uploading movies, so why all the fuss with upload caps?

Generally i think that the focus on upload limit is misplaced. If you look at Google Docs and Zoho, they don't even mention upload limits. What happens when Google and Zoho adds Google Gears to their notebook? One of the strongest features in Evernote is that you can have offline notes and access them from anywhere.

Well, for one thing, Google Gears and Zoho have different business plans. In other words, EN needs to make money somehow. I actually like the concept of the monthly upload limit, vs. a hard limit on total storage. That means that your EN database can continue to grow as the years pass.

[engberg 89]

True - the only pricing model that would make everyone happy would be if Evernote never charged for anything (and didn't run annoying ads, either). Unfortunately, this pricing model doesn't meet our personal requirements for food, shelter, etc.

While nothing is set in stone, we're trying to set up a financial structure where:

* The majority of users (who generate low to average costs to us) can use Evernote for free, every month, for the rest of their lives. We put unobtrusive ads on public notes to recoup some of their costs.

* A smaller number of users, who generate higher costs (bandwidth, CPU, storage, image processing, software development, etc.) pay a relatively small amount per month/year.

* Evernote maintains a modest profit that we use to feed engineers that add new features, sysadmins to run servers, etc.

[bamafan 1]

Works for me.

[mugpet 0]

Well, for one thing, Google Gears and Zoho have different business plans. In other words, EN needs to make money somehow. I actually like the concept of the monthly upload limit, vs. a hard limit on total storage. That means that your EN database can continue to grow as the years pass.

As a potential paying customer I don't really care about ENs business plan. I just want a good and reliable product. The reason why I mentioned Google and Zoho is that they have a notebook functionality that is actually quite good, but lacks the ability to go offline. That should be a concern for EN sins their decisions to have monthly upload limits can lead users to look other ways. In my opinion only two things - at the moment - makes EN better than the other online notebooks.

1. It can go offline.

2. You can search in images.

[ThomasStraten 0]

johlknight says first

It needs a lot of improvements, especially with the web-interface, but also with the Window client, before being taken out of beta.

and add later

I disagree. The core functionality [saving and synching] is excellent , but the Windows client needs a lot of improvement, and, quite frankly, the web service is rubbish.

I completely agree with him, adding that the loss of Desktop links is a very bad idea. They will only work when we are at the original computer...true, but we are at it generally in one place (home or work).

If EN3 must stay only Web based, it looses lots of clients.

But this is not the point of the post. The point is: when are we going to get the new Beta before keeping a chat-chat talk about costs?

I only pay for what I know I will need or eat or drink.... I am not even interested in the possible price of something that is showing failures, etc...

So, please keep investing time in making EN3 worth something (smooth interaction between all 4 for instance, and same behavior) and then we will be happy to get back to money related stuf.

Doesn'it make sense?

Best regards

Tom

[ThomasStraten 0]

mugpet say

1. It can go offline.

2. You can search in images.

That is the whole geniality of EN 2......

and IF (and only IF) you port EN 2 to the web.... you will kill competition....No one is even near!!!!

But what if Google notes go to Mobile and Iphone....and what if they decide to go on desktop.... (they have....200 programmers??? more????)

The only thing they will not have is the reading in images...but it is not that good anyway (better now but still missing lots of stuf). And three words written are not that hard to write to document the name of a wine!

Time matters...

Tom

[allen 39]

I'd intended to post this at the time of the original announcement, but lost my draft when the browser crashed, alas.

As a few others have mentioned, I too find it funny that at this stage of the beta the service be switched to a relatively low bandwidth limit and, soon, premium (paid) upgrades will be made available. I love EN3 and use it daily, but I have to agree with the others who feel that it's a bit odd/wrong to impose bandwidth restrictions and premium payment plans on early beta adopters while EN3 has a great number of issues with the web version as well as the desktop client that need to be addressed before EN3 starts to feel less like a beta and more like the real release.

But that said, as far as bandwidth versus disk space goes--I prefer bandwidth any day, by far. It really charges by your general usage, not your accumulative--in a notebook that was size oriented, eventually everyone would end up paying for the highest premium of service as their collection had swollen. Meanwhile, with bandwidth, you just find the traffic limit that fits you and you're good no matter how large your collection grows to be. I think that it ultimately scales much more efficiently.

What about notebook importing, though--users of Evernote 2, for example, who wish to migrate to evernote three -- surely they won't be forced to signup with the highest premium in order to import their data to the new service? A one time free exodus would be nice.

I also think it should be possible to buy one time bandwidth "packs". For example, if I need to exceed my normal bandwidth just for a single month or tweek, the ability to purchase a buffer for that time period would be much better than having to upgrade/downgrade my account constantly.

[engberg 89]

I also think it should be possible to buy one time bandwidth "packs". For example, if I need to exceed my normal bandwidth just for a single month or tweek, the ability to purchase a buffer for that time period would be much better than having to upgrade/downgrade my account constantly.

If you needed to do a one-time import of a lot of data, you can sign up for a monthly subscription and then cancel for future months. That would give you 30 days of a very large amount of data, for only a few dollars. (Details coming very soon, I promise...)

[salgud 12]

i think we (the beta testers) should have some more space for free when we leave beta, like 100MB. We are the early users, we recommended the service, we blogged about it, we spread the love, giving some more to the early users will be a good way to keep then loving the evernote evermore!

Sounds delightful, but you can just send me a check!

[ThomasStraten 0]

Ouch!!!!

Another promise?

Sigh!

[gnologic 11]

I tried to skim this topic for answer best I could, but honestly I didn't read the entire post. Sorry if I passed over the answer.

How is trash handled? I.E. if I have a clip and decide to trash it before sync ever happens, and then while in the trash it syncs to web, is that still "charged"?

If answer is Yes, then:

Wouldn't it be better to keep trash offline? I see no reason it should sync (I`ve already decided I don't want it), and it doesn't seem right to charge for a clip I don't even want any more.

Thanks

[engberg 89]

Trash is synchronized across platforms, so that if you have a note that is already synched to three different computers, and you move it into the trash on one of the computers, that change is visible on the others.

We're adding a warning into the client when you create a note and then put it in the trash before you sync, so that you know that it will be synched across computers.

Obviously, if you really want to just delete a note completely, you can do that from the UI, and/or empty the trash. If you delete permanently (e.g. by emptying the trash), then that note is completely removed from our servers.