Jump to content
Sign in to follow this  
trixiesirisheyes

mac (Archived) Love stacks, but...

Recommended Posts

I created a notebook called "Clients," then I created a notebook for one of my clients - for the sake of argument, "Joe's Grill." When I dragged the "Joe's Grill" into the "Clients" notebook so that "Clients" would be the enclosing notebook, Evernote's Stacks actually created yet another notebook called "Notebook Stack" and put "Clients" and "Joe's Grill" into that.

Now, this is just counterintuitive. On my Mac desktop, or in documents or Mail or whatever, I create an folder called "Clients." I create another folder called "Joe's Grill." I drag "Joe's Grill" into "Clients," and the OS grasps that I am using "Clients" as an enclosing folder.

How about if I create a notebook in Evernote called "Clients" and I drag "Joe's Grill" INTO that notebook, like I was adding a manila folder to a Pendaflex hanging folder called "Clients," and Evernote doesn't make extra work for me? Because now I have to go into Evernote, rename the "Notebook Stack" notebook as "Clients," and REMOVE the notebook named "Clients" that's within it.

Share this post


Link to post
I created a notebook called "Clients," then I created a notebook for one of my clients - for the sake of argument, "Joe's Grill." When I dragged the "Joe's Grill" into the "Clients" notebook so that "Clients" would be the enclosing notebook, Evernote's Stacks actually created yet another notebook called "Notebook Stack" and put "Clients" and "Joe's Grill" into that.

Now, this is just counterintuitive. On my Mac desktop, or in documents or Mail or whatever, I create an folder called "Clients." I create another folder called "Joe's Grill." I drag "Joe's Grill" into "Clients," and the OS grasps that I am using "Clients" as an enclosing folder.

How about if I create a notebook in Evernote called "Clients" and I drag "Joe's Grill" INTO that notebook, like I was adding a manila folder to a Pendaflex hanging folder called "Clients," and Evernote doesn't make extra work for me? Because now I have to go into Evernote, rename the "Notebook Stack" notebook as "Clients," and REMOVE the notebook named "Clients" that's within it.

I suppose that's why the term "stacks" was chosen. They are not folders or notebooks. It seems counterintutive to me, to create a notebook called "clients" if that's what you want your stack to be named.

Share this post


Link to post

What I WANTED was to create a stack for my client notebooks. Since there is no way to just create a stack and then put notebooks into it, I guess this is not a selling point for me. It seems counterintuitive to me to drag a client's folder INTO a what could conceivably be another client's folder just to create a stack.

Think of it this way. I have a notebook for Joe's Grill. I have a notebook for Jill's Salon. I want a stack named Clients to enclose all these. Why would I intuitively drag Joe's Grill into Jill's Salon to create a stack that would enclose both of them as separate entities? It would make more sense to be able to create a stack from the outset called Clients, and then drag each of those notebooks into it.

I think it's also easy to get wrapped up in the name, "Stacks," instead of the function - subfolders - that people have been requesting (because I've read the feature requests). There is a reason people are asking for sub-sub-sub folders, because we probably operate more in a File Drawer/Pendaflex folder/manila folder world than we do a notebook world, and the computer version has made it possible to put folders inside of folders inside of folders. File cabinet on steroids. "Notebook" is cute and all, but actually, I'm more about folders and organization.

And, of course, for overall file management, I can do exactly what I'm describing on a PC or Mac, because they're all about nested-nested-nested folders. It's the difference between good file management and having files covering your computer desktop.

To be honest, I downgraded my Evernote plan to the free one (after having upgraded it), and I just keep my recipes in Evernote. The inability to work in an intuitive workflow such as I describe with Evernote has caused me to look again at the Omnifocus software for the Mac I have. It can do much of the same stuff Evernote can do except put notes in it (that's a request Omnifocus is working on) and the whole PDF reading thing.

I kind of like Evernote more (it seems more fluid), but without the intuitive ability to do what I describe, I might as well use the OF software I already have (and don't have to pay extra for), since it's a little closer to what I need. I'd upgrade my Evernote account again in a heartbeat if I could do this one thing and not have to think too hard about it.

  • Like 1

Share this post


Link to post
What I WANTED was to create a stack for my client notebooks. Since there is no way to just create a stack and then put notebooks into it,

Windows version, you right click on the notebook, add to stack & then select an existing stack or create a new one. At this initial implementation, it appears you cannot name a new stack & have to rename it from "new stack" but NBD & I suppose that will be addressed in an update. Does it not work this way on Mac?

Share this post


Link to post
What I WANTED was to create a stack for my client notebooks. Since there is no way to just create a stack and then put notebooks into it,

Windows version, you right click on the notebook, add to stack & then select an existing stack or create a new one. At this initial implementation, it appears you cannot name a new stack & have to rename it from "new stack" but NBD & I suppose that will be addressed in an update. Does it not work this way on Mac?

Yup...works this way on Mac:

viewtopic.php?f=38&t=19967&hilit=stack

To create a Stack, just take one of your notebooks and drag it onto another notebook. Or right-click and select "Add to Stack...

Share this post


Link to post

At a guess, Evernote's notion of an empty stack is one that doesn't exist, so isn't displayed. It's not a notebook, it's a container for notebooks. Agreed that it was a little counterintuitive to create a stack by dragging a notebook onto another notebook, but after the first time, I got it. So, yes, there is learning curve for nearly everyone, but that curve seems pretty short. One thing to remember, though, is that stacks are a brand new feature in beta software, both on Mac and Windows, so you may see changes.

If people get wrapped up in the sub-folders as opposed to stacks, there's not much remedy for it. For whatever reason, Evernote doesn't want to deliver subfolders at this time or any time soon. I think that that's going to be the reality for some time to come, if not forever (I don't really care, though I think that tags are more flexible, but I've worked with folders too). As nearly as I can tell, stacks exist to reduce clutter in the Notebooks area (100 notebooks would take up a lot of vertical space), and to give some ability to restrict searches to a subset of notebooks. But the main organizational tool in Evernote remains the tag. Stacks help, nested subtags help, but mainly it's all about tags.

One thing that will help, and I think we'll see it before subfolders, is note links.

~Jeff

Share this post


Link to post

How about if I could just create a stack that I plan to add notebooks to, name it what I want, and start putting notebooks into it?

A folder works like a notebook - it's a place to gather documents, organized as we wish in a way that makes sense to us.

On my hosting server, everything is broken down into folders for particular purposes. It's a good idea not to put something into certain folders, because I might break something, and the site won't work. In the folder I'm allowed to put sites into, each site gets its own folder, because each site is only allowed one index.html file. Otherwise, the different sites will break if the browser is searching for a the correct index.html files in a folder containing a lot of them, all at the same level of hierarchy.

So of course it's not intuitive for me to drag one client's folder into another client's folder just to make a stack. In my world, that's a recipe for disaster.

This just seems so basic to me.

I also find tags to be incredibly annoying and not the way I think, especially since Evernote's tags seem to be case sensitive. If you want to talk about clutter, think of a list of hundreds of tags, even if you can put them in subfolders. Oy! I hate tags.

And I'm not married to using Evernote. There are other products out there that do the same kind of thing, like Springpad. So meh, if Evernote doesn't provide what I need, I'll look elsewhere. Something else is bound to come along, if it doesn't exist already. Evernote is only forcing its method on those who choose to stick around. Based on the features request, they're kind of foolish to ignore the sub-sub-sub notebooks. It seems pretty popular. They may have over 8 million people using Evernote, but how many people have stopped using it because a lack of a feature is a dealbreaker, but they're still included in the numbers Evernote hands out? Just sayin'. I WAS using it for a bunch of stuff, and now I'm just using it for recipes. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm a user, but still looking elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
How about if I could just create a stack that I plan to add notebooks to, name it what I want, and start putting notebooks into it?

As I said before, stacks are not notebooks or folders. Hence, the different name. And as mentioned above, you can create a stack directly - it's not necessary to make a notebook first & then convert it to a stack.

I also find tags to be incredibly annoying and not the way I think, especially since Evernote's tags seem to be case sensitive. If you want to talk about clutter, think of a list of hundreds of tags, even if you can put them in subfolders. Oy! I hate tags.

And I'm not married to using Evernote. There are other products out there that do the same kind of thing, like Springpad. So meh, if Evernote doesn't provide what I need, I'll look elsewhere. Something else is bound to come along, if it doesn't exist already. Evernote is only forcing its method on those who choose to stick around. Based on the features request, they're kind of foolish to ignore the sub-sub-sub notebooks. It seems pretty popular. They may have over 8 million people using Evernote, but how many people have stopped using it because a lack of a feature is a dealbreaker, but they're still included in the numbers Evernote hands out? Just sayin'. I WAS using it for a bunch of stuff, and now I'm just using it for recipes. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm a user, but still looking elsewhere.

If you're averse to using tags, then Evernote may not be for you. That's why there's vanilla and chocolate. As Jeff mentioned, it's highly unlikely EN will ever have sub folders/notebooks. Tags can, for the most part, accomplish the same exact function as sub notebooks. It does require a bit of thinking outside the box.

Share this post


Link to post
To create a Stack, just take one of your notebooks and drag it onto another notebook. Or right-click and select "Add to Stack...

I know how to create a stack. It just doesn't make sense.

So it creates a stack called "Evernote Stack," and the notebook that I wanted to be the enclosure now has to be deleted,

No. Like I said, if you right clicked on Joe's Grill notebook & created a stack, yes you have to rename the new stack to clients...but you do not have to delete anything.

Share this post


Link to post
If the tags weren't case-sensitive, I could get used to it. But I tried entering the tags in the incorrect case, and they didn't work.

Tags are not case sensitive.

Share this post


Link to post

Huh, I wonder why it didn't work before (yes, I spelled the word correctly in the first place).

In any case, considering my client files are arranged on my Mac in the way I described, and in my filing cabinets the way I described, and in my Mail program in the way I described, it only makes sense for me to use a filing/notebook system that works in the way my other filing systems work.

Thank you for your time.

Share this post


Link to post
A folder works like a notebook - it's a place to gather documents, organized as we wish in a way that makes sense to us.

Sure, it can. But notebooks don't always act like folders, and it's not necessary that they do. For many common real world notebooks (e.g., ring binders), we don't nest them; we just put notes in them. And stack them.

So of course it's not intuitive for me to drag one client's folder into another client's folder just to make a stack. In my world, that's a recipe for disaster.

Maybe (though I believe that a lot of what people seem to believe is intuitive is just learned behavior), but an Evernote notebook is not a folder, and treating them like they are doesn't make them so.

I also find tags to be incredibly annoying and not the way I think, especially since Evernote's tags seem to be case sensitive. If you want to talk about clutter, think of a list of hundreds of tags, even if you can put them in subfolders. Oy! I hate tags.

And I'm not married to using Evernote. There are other products out there that do the same kind of thing, like Springpad. So meh, if Evernote doesn't provide what I need, I'll look elsewhere. Something else is bound to come along, if it doesn't exist already. Evernote is only forcing its method on those who choose to stick around. Based on the features request, they're kind of foolish to ignore the sub-sub-sub notebooks. It seems pretty popular. They may have over 8 million people using Evernote, but how many people have stopped using it because a lack of a feature is a dealbreaker, but they're still included in the numbers Evernote hands out? Just sayin'. I WAS using it for a bunch of stuff, and now I'm just using it for recipes. I'm sure I'm not the only one. I'm a user, but still looking elsewhere.

Share this post


Link to post
Huh, I wonder why it didn't work before (yes, I spelled the word correctly in the first place).

There was a bug for a bit of time earlier in the year where tags were case sensitive. Since corrected.

~Jeff

Share this post


Link to post

Food for thought. Nothing is counted out. I'm always willing to learn something different. And even as a dyed-in-the-wool Mac use, I can acknowledge that nothing, including Macs (I'm a Zealot), is perfect. Unless I learn programming, I will never get anything that does exactly what I want it to.

Let's just say that I was really excited about Stacks, and then not so much (don't love Stacks on the Mac, either). I really don't care about sub folders 18 deep - one sub is usually good for me, so a notebook in a stack is just great, but I do think that it wouldn't take much to just have a way to add an empty stack (call it something else if the semantics is too upsetting to Evernote's creators), and pull notebooks into it from there. That's all. Piece of cake.

And I will learn to use tags.

Share this post


Link to post
I really don't care about sub folders 18 deep - one sub is usually good for me, so a notebook in a stack is just great, but I do think that it wouldn't take much to just have a way to add an empty stack (call it something else if the semantics is too upsetting to Evernote's creators), and pull notebooks into it from there. That's all. Piece of cake.

I agree with that -- in Outlook (which I've used for over 10 years now) these days I use folders, but only one deep, so they're a lot like notebooks in Evernote; Categories seem to work better for me. In GMail it's labels, so it's not too different from Evernote. It's mainly in the source code tree that we have at work: ~20 top-level folders, each 2 - 7 levels deep. Navigating it's a pain.

I'd say it's early days on the stacks (though they've been gestating behind the scenes for some times obviously), so there may be changes to them yet -- we'll see.

And I will learn to use tags.

They're not all that hard, but there are some tricks to using them well; if you have questions, feel free to ask hereabouts. Me, I don't have a lot of tags either, but there are folks who have elaborate tagging systems, and one or the other might work better for you. As I say, good luck.

~Jeff

Share this post


Link to post

I'm a web developer creating sites in Dreamweaver using CSS, so I understand about subfolders and nested tags, etc. I'm also a graphic designer used to dealing with the vicissitudes of Photoshop, InDesign, and Illustrator. I'm also a treasurer of a nonprofit organization and experienced bookkeeper, using QuickBooks and its chart of accounts. It's not that I'm afraid to learn it, or that I can't learn it, it's that I'm tired. I don't WANT to learn a whole new way of doing things. I have my plate full with keeping up on Adobe's new software every 18 months or so, and new browsers, and HTML5 and CSS3, and new design trends, and ever-changing tax laws.

I just don't want to have to think that hard just to manage my time and my projects. I really need my project management stuff to be no-brainer and intuitive so I'm not too overwhelmed to dig into it every day, because it's just one more huge chore. Otherwise, I'll just avoid it.

And isn't that really what it boils down to - something so easy, people don't mind using it, and maybe they even look forward to it? Just sayin'.

Share this post


Link to post
I just don't want to have to think that hard just to manage my time and my projects. I really need my project management stuff to be no-brainer and intuitive so I'm not too overwhelmed to dig into it every day, because it's just one more huge chore. Otherwise, I'll just avoid it.

For me, the interesting thing is that that's exactly why I'm rapidly falling in love with Evernote. I have a huge amount of stuff on my plate -- I'm the owner of a small consulting business, and I manage my firm's tech and financial stuff along with large client research projects -- and I don't want to add yet more organizational systems to my brain. I played with OmniFocus and Things long enough to realize that any productivity gains they might offer would be more than offset by the amount of time I'd need to spend learning their arcana, and them maintaining all their various lists. Even Springpad had some of that going on, despite its fairly minimal feature set. With Evernote, I'm discovering more and more that I can just dump everything in there, add a few tags for key things, and then forget it. I can find the data when I need it, and not have to worry about changing my work patterns to fit someone else's methodology.

Share this post


Link to post
For me, the interesting thing is that that's exactly why I'm rapidly falling in love with Evernote.

I will love it enough to marry it and pay for the premium account if I can create an empty stack and then pull notebooks into the empty stack. Kind of like "Here's the empty place on my bookshelf where I am going to stack my notebooks." Considering I just moved and had to make room for about 10 notebooks, I'm well-acquainted with this concept.

Share this post


Link to post

The interface option to create a stack by dragging one notebook onto another one is basically a clone of how iOS allows you to create a "folder". iOS users may find it intuitive, but I'm more likely to just use the right-click option to start a stack with one of my existing notebooks.

As noted, there's no such thing as a "stack of notebooks" that doesn't contain a notebook, just like you wouldn't say you had a stack of books with zero books. This means that if you drag the last notebook out of a stack, it disappears so you don't need to manually delete it (also similar to how Folders work on iOS4).

We realize that for some people, this design may be intuitive, and others might prefer it the other way. Ultimately, I think that the act of creating an organizational scheme for your (many) notebooks is an infrequent operation by longer-term power users, so hopefully the method of creating the stack itself isn't a big issue.

Share this post


Link to post

I hate the way iOS does it, too, and I otherwise love my iPhone. In fact, I tried doing their folders, and quickly abandoned that. My first screen is Apple apps. Subsequent screens are my apps in alphabetical order. When I want my shopper app, I quickly scroll through the screens until I get to it. Since I'm a visual thinker, I look for the icon. Takes me all of 3 seconds. I don't have to squint at a folder and try to figure out what's in it, despite my naming it.

I have puh-lenty of clerical experience (52 years of OCD and listmaking, too), and I know how to organize things so they're at my fingertips. Tagging to me is like having a whole bunch of colored Post-It notes - pretty, but not a great solution, IMHO. It requires that I remember how I tagged something before. When I look for someone in my Address Book on my Mac, sometimes I type their first name, sometimes I type their last, and sometimes I type their company name, depending on if my brain is in right-brain mode or left-brain mode. Strangely, Address Book is always able to find it. And I didn't have to tag anything.

I'm a power user of my computer, for everything from graphic and web design to bookkeeping in QuickBooks. My system works awesomely, because it's efficient and I don't have to spend a lot of attention on it.

So name the empty stack "leave-a-spot-on-the-shelf-for-my-upcoming-stack-of-notebooks," so we get the nomenclature out of the way (and actually, I don't generally *stack* my notebooks, because if I want to get to the notebook at the bottom, I'll end up with an avalanche, so a *stack* of notebooks to me is just silly. I put them side by side).

I also don't want to spend a lot of time tagging things just so I can find them later.

But let the record show I am trying to assimilate. Because I really do kinda like Evernote better than Omnifocus.

Share this post


Link to post
Everytime I see this thread up top, I think of the B52's . (Love Shack, bay-bee...)

I think Rock Lobster would be more appropriate for my locale...

~Jeff

Share this post


Link to post
As noted, there's no such thing as a "stack of notebooks" that doesn't contain a notebook, just like you wouldn't say you had a stack of books with zero books. This means that if you drag the last notebook out of a stack, it disappears so you don't need to manually delete it (also similar to how Folders work on iOS4).

Hah, but Jeff earlier in the thread referred to a stack as a container, which implies that it could be empty. And trixie's analog is the empty place on the shelf, which I can see too. You clear a space on the shelf, stick on a label, and stack up your notebooks. I too got tripped up at first with stacks, because of this example. I have Notebook Class, Notebook Class Scuba, Notebook Class Basketweaving. In class, I keep notes related to my studies that are not specific to any class. (I also have a tag in each notebook for notes specific to the class but not to any category in the class, so I really want a general class notebook.) At first I thought that if I dragged Notebook Class Scuba to Class, I would get a stack called class that held its notes, plus the Class Scuba notebook. I quickly realized that would be the subfolder model and reoriented my "stack thinking" accordingly, but now my tag scheme is at variance with my stack scheme. I have tags related to Class, in which I have nested tags related to Class Scuba, but Notebook Class Scuba is not nested in of Notebook Class. This is a small blip in congruity in my own model.

We realize that for some people, this design may be intuitive, and others might prefer it the other way. Ultimately, I think that the act of creating an organizational scheme for your (many) notebooks is an infrequent operation by longer-term power users, so hopefully the method of creating the stack itself isn't a big issue.

Dave, I think some of the confusion comes from the drag n drop functionality in creating stacks. I'm not suggesting you eliminate that. But, the contextual menu procedure Add to Stack > New Stack is actually more analogous to what is happening. If users got used to creating stacks with the menu, it might easy the learning curve. Perhaps it would be better if the menu item was Create New Stack. And rather than Delete Stack, perhaps Unstack All. (I know, this creates its own issues.)

Trixie, I was resistant to tagging only a few short weeks ago, but now I'm feverishly getting all of my files into EN so that I power tag them!

Share this post


Link to post

mdave, a like-minded soul. I love it. I'm glad you understood my concept as an empty spot on a shelf.

I too have gotten used to tagging in this short time, and have even upgraded my account and gotten everything out of Omnifocus.

That said, I still think we should have the option to "Create a new stack," instead of the unintuitive way dragging and dropping notebooks works currently.

"Unstack" is a good idea," although "Delete Stack" works for me, as long as it's not getting rid of the notebooks.

Share this post


Link to post

You know, I have to agree that there are a number of things in the Evernote Mac client that are somewhat less than intuitive. It's stuff that you can figure out pretty quickly, and it doesn't hinder the remarkable power and flexibility of Evernote as a whole ... so really, I'm absolutely OK with it. I'd much rather the system be useful than pretty.

But still ... in a perfect world, it would be nice to have both. :)

Share this post


Link to post
mdave, a like-minded soul. I love it. I'm glad you understood my concept as an empty spot on a shelf.

It must be the graphic designer in me.

That said, I still think we should have the option to "Create a new stack," instead of the unintuitive way dragging and dropping notebooks works currently..

Select a notebook. Contextual menu: Add to Stack > New Stack.

I'd much rather the system be useful than pretty.

You don't think Evernote is pretty? :cry:

Share this post


Link to post
I'd much rather the system be useful than pretty.

You don't think Evernote is pretty? :cry:

She's not prom-date pretty, but I sure love her for her mind. :)

Share this post


Link to post
Select a notebook. Contextual menu: Add to Stack > New Stack.

Works for me.

I'd much rather the system be useful than pretty.

You don't think Evernote is pretty? :cry:

I think Evernote is quite pretty (I know you weren't asking me). I like its interface better than Omnifocus's

Share this post


Link to post

She may not be the prettiest, but she's definitely memorable.

Share this post


Link to post

Maine is definitely a function-over-form kinda state, but even so, Evernote (for Windows) is one of the prettier apps that I use on a regular basis. Beats heck out of Visual Studio anyways...

~Jeff

Share this post


Link to post

I just wish the Notebook Stacks allowed duplicate names. For example, I'd like to have a "Misc" notebook in each of my stacks, but cannot. A minor gripe but it would be a nice feature going forward.

Share this post


Link to post

I also think stacks are an odd way to respond to users' request for folders, but ... c'est la vie.

I do think it is not in Evernote's best interests to have evangelists on the forum telling users who have concerns about the UI to just get with the program--i.e., that if you don't like it, the problem's with you.

Why not just let people express their concerns? Evernote can then either take the concerns into consideration-- or not.

Share this post


Link to post
I do think it is not in Evernote's best interests to have evangelists on the forum telling users who have concerns about the UI to just get with the program--i.e., that if you don't like it, the problem's with you.

You've obviously misinterpreted replies by Evangelists.

Why not just let people express their concerns? Evernote can then either take the concerns into consideration-- or not.

Additionally, evangelists are users just like you. This is a user's forum. We are free to post our opinions, questions & possible workarounds just like you are.

Share this post


Link to post
I do think it is not in Evernote's best interests to have evangelists on the forum telling users who have concerns about the UI to just get with the program--i.e., that if you don't like it, the problem's with you.

If you're responding to a particular person, then kindly post the quote. It's not clear from what you wrote what the context is.

Share this post


Link to post

Hello, I am a new user.

Consider that a certain file structure already contains all of our stuff. It is set up so that you can instantly sort all of it from newest to oldest, or oldest to newest. Your life is a log file. All the data is added sequentially. I like that aspect of Evernote. You can go back to whatever was happening at a certain time years ago. What else has that?

Now, to make it easier, there are tags. Ok. we don't like tags, so we have notebooks. The notebooks are probably just internal tags. An alternate index, if you will. Also, we know the name of these notebooks, and tags, and we can send data through various means using these notebook names that we know. So, supposed they let stacks have the same name as a notebook, and allowed multiple notebooks by the same name to be under different stacks? The whole point is to know the name of the notebook that contains a certain data. I also point out that Voice2note can add by tag, and maybe by notebook, if not now, then we're asking for it. All these app's know about tags and notebooks to add notes. If the file structure were sudenly changed, then how would you cut it all over. How would you tell them where to put stuff. The stacks look like a display only invention. Instead of building all these stacks in advance, when you realize you have a notebook that you want to stack, you right click, and it presents you with all the stacks, and the option to create a new one (Windows creates a new folder named New Folder, and you have to mouse around, and click, right?).

I agree that at first, this looks counter, but I just started using it tonight, and the above is what I'm offering.

The file is most important, and across all these platforms, wow! I'll bet that the notes are using internal tags to know what folder they are in. Simple. Fast. Let's think about this for a while. How bad? I'm reserving my opinion for now.

I had to get hundreds and hundreds of todo's off Jott, and I've looked at a lot of App's, but Evernote looks best so far. Evernote has backup of my data to desktop and out to idrive. Offline access, too! By the way, just put an s or _ in front of "client" for now to create your stack. I just put this post on my evernote. Aaah! Thanks.

Share this post


Link to post
The stacks look like a display only invention./quote]

?? The only way to search on multiple notebooks -- except for "All Notebooks" -- is to use stacks, since you may specify a stack as a search target. That's not just display-only. Other than that, I couldn't really tell what you were asking for, or the point you're trying to make. Folders are not implemented using tags, not in the way that the term 'tag' is used in Evernote.

Share this post


Link to post
I think it's also easy to get wrapped up in the name, "Stacks," instead of the function - subfolders - that people have been requesting (because I've read the feature requests). There is a reason people are asking for sub-sub-sub folders, because we probably operate more in a File Drawer/Pendaflex folder/manila folder world than we do a notebook world, and the computer version has made it possible to put folders inside of folders inside of folders. File cabinet on steroids. "Notebook" is cute and all, but actually, I'm more about folders and organization.

I'm just guessing here but I imagine that Evernote is trying to compete with OneNote. What makes OneNote work better is that it is consistent in its application of the notebook metaphor. It uses nested groups of sections with nested pages and subpages as well as multiple notebooks. I think Evernote is a bit confused. It eschews folders in favor of notebooks but allows no structure within the notebooks ... which real notebooks have (think tabs). It is precisely folders which lack the structure that Evernote lacks ... thus the confusion. The insistence on calling Evernote's folders (and that is exactly what they are) "notebooks" reflects this confused thinking, IMO. Stacks carries this to the extreme. I mean, why not just bite the bullet and make folders and subfolders rather than persist in the failing metaphor of notebooks? If we are really working with "notebooks", let's have sections, tabs, and all of the rest.

And, of course, for overall file management, I can do exactly what I'm describing on a PC or Mac, because they're all about nested-nested-nested folders. It's the difference between good file management and having files covering your computer desktop.

Very well put. My notebooks in Evernote are a mess strewn around ... because I can't structure them as folders.

To be honest, I downgraded my Evernote plan to the free one (after having upgraded it), and I just keep my recipes in Evernote. The inability to work in an intuitive workflow such as I describe with Evernote has caused me to look again at the Omnifocus software for the Mac I have. It can do much of the same stuff Evernote can do except put notes in it (that's a request Omnifocus is working on) and the whole PDF reading thing.

That is the reason I have not upgraded. I have never exceeded the free limit because I just can't figure out how to use it and requests for more logical structure and better documentation go unanswered.

I kind of like Evernote more (it seems more fluid), but without the intuitive ability to do what I describe, I might as well use the OF software I already have (and don't have to pay extra for), since it's a little closer to what I need. I'd upgrade my Evernote account again in a heartbeat if I could do this one thing and not have to think too hard about it.

I'm stuck with OneNote for my organization and only use Evernote when I really NEED a document to be available across platforms.

Share this post


Link to post
I created a notebook called "Clients," then I created a notebook for one of my clients - for the sake of argument, "Joe's Grill." When I dragged the "Joe's Grill" into the "Clients" notebook so that "Clients" would be the enclosing notebook, Evernote's Stacks actually created yet another notebook called "Notebook Stack" and put "Clients" and "Joe's Grill" into that.

Now, this is just counterintuitive. On my Mac desktop, or in documents or Mail or whatever, I create an folder called "Clients." I create another folder called "Joe's Grill." I drag "Joe's Grill" into "Clients," and the OS grasps that I am using "Clients" as an enclosing folder.

How about if I create a notebook in Evernote called "Clients" and I drag "Joe's Grill" INTO that notebook, like I was adding a manila folder to a Pendaflex hanging folder called "Clients," and Evernote doesn't make extra work for me? Because now I have to go into Evernote, rename the "Notebook Stack" notebook as "Clients," and REMOVE the notebook named "Clients" that's within it.

I suppose that's why the term "stacks" was chosen. They are not folders or notebooks. It seems counterintutive to me, to create a notebook called "clients" if that's what you want your stack to be named.

But that is why the big FAIL here. What is WANTED by the USER is to have a NOTEBOOK (to stick with that metaphor) of CLIENTS and within it groupings of client information organized into PAGES within SECTIONS. Focusing on the correct name to call the organizational structure does nothing to provide missing structure as can be seen with STACKS. Stacks group notebooks but don't provide any functional structure, that I can fathom. Apparently they can restrict searching by tags to a group of notebooks rather than simply ONE notebook or ALL notebooks. I sure hope it was easy to implement that ... it would be a shame if it took a lot of work to implement this little bit of function.

Share this post


Link to post

It's a big FAIL for you - but it doesn't bother me in the slightest and I'm sure that there are plenty of people like you and plenty like me.

Reading your other posts today it looks like you are a 'browser', that's fine, everyone is different. I'm a searcher, I do a little sorting and tagging but most of the time I hit my search all hotkeys and away I go.

Assuming that they way that you work is the 'right' way or that the way that Microsoft have implemented OneNote is the best way implies that Evernote are trying to meet that model. It's pretty clear from the way the application has been developed and the comments from the Evernote team that they do not plan to implement nested notebooks beyond the current Stacks in the near future.

They clearly don't want to emulate PC/Mac folder structures/OneNote.

The joy of Evernote is that you can use it for free for as long as you want to. It seems you have a limited use case that it works for you with - access everywhere, but for everything else OneNote works better for you. Why not just use the best tool for the job for you?

Share this post


Link to post
I also think stacks are an odd way to respond to users' request for folders, but ... c'est la vie.

Yeah, ya gotta wonder why Evernote does not seem to LISTEN. What is requested is nested FOLDERS (feel free to call them notebooks if that rings your chimes). What we got was STACKS, which don't give the functionality requested.

I do think it is not in Evernote's best interests to have evangelists on the forum telling users who have concerns about the UI to just get with the program--i.e., that if you don't like it, the problem's with you.

Right. It is a pain to have people saying that we don't REALLY know what want and if we would ONLY change the way we do things we would love what was offered. LOL ;-) The customer is always wrong?

Why not just let people express their concerns? Evernote can then either take the concerns into consideration-- or not.

I think that the real Evernote employees do that. They probably have some big list in an Evernote notebook somewhere with our concerns in them and are eavluating the cost benefit ratios. It is the "evangelists" who are evangelical and lose their sense of perspective sometimes. I must admit that I have gotten some very good suggestions from some of them. Without them this would be a very quiet place. Or the developers would not have time to develop. ;-)

Share this post


Link to post

Just another perspective: on the Internet you tend to find people come and gripe with problems or dislikes. What you don't see is the thousands of users NOT here because they are completely happy with the product.

I'm not an evangelist and I'm not here to tell you your way of thinking is wrong. BUT I happen to like the stacks implementation JUST FINE. So I want it to stay the way it is.

So now tell me - who should Evernote listen to - you or me?

No product can please all the people all the time. Nor should any product try to be all things to all people.

Share this post


Link to post
Yeah, ya gotta wonder why Evernote does not seem to LISTEN. What is requested is nested FOLDERS (feel free to call them notebooks if that rings your chimes). What we got was STACKS, which don't give the functionality requested.

Evernote does listen, but that doesn't mean that they choose to implement every user's suggestion. It's their design choice; it may not work for everyone, but that's OK, there are alternatives available. By the way, that's not to say that they won't change their minds about the nested folders, etc. that some of their users want, but there's been no external signals that that's going to happen (and I am not privy to inside information), and so we try to deal with Evernote as it exists today.

Right. It is a pain to have people saying that we don't REALLY know what want and if we would ONLY change the way we do things we would love what was offered. LOL ;-) The customer is always wrong?

No, most of us accept that you probably know what you want, but if that's not what Evernote offers, then you're not going to be happy. Again, Evernote is not for everyone. Frankly, if folks realize that fact earlier rather than later, that's better all around. But it's really ok to ask for features, at least in my book.

I think that the real Evernote employees do that. They probably have some big list in an Evernote notebook somewhere with our concerns in them and are eavluating the cost benefit ratios. It is the "evangelists" who are evangelical and lose their sense of perspective sometimes. I must admit that I have gotten some very good suggestions from some of them. Without them this would be a very quiet place. Or the developers would not have time to develop. ;-)

Um, we "evangelists" (and that's Evernote's term) are different people. If you have a problem with an evangelist (or any other individual poster for that matter), then please address them individually. I see the good that BurgersNFries and metrodon do in the forums -- they help a lot of folks -- but I don't speak for them, nor they me. Please don't lump us all together.

Share this post


Link to post
It's a big FAIL for you - but it doesn't bother me in the slightest and I'm sure that there are plenty of people like you and plenty like me.

Exactly so. No solution works for everyone. However, the solution that works for most is the solution with the most flexibility. I think what you are reading here is that many people have needs that are not met with tagging, as implemented currently in Evernote, and no nested folders.

Reading your other posts today it looks like you are a 'browser', that's fine, everyone is different. I'm a searcher, I do a little sorting and tagging but most of the time I hit my search all hotkeys and away I go.

I often search. My browsing example was meant to show where I hit the rocks with Evernote. It works brilliantly for many things. Even without tags I can get to lots of things quickly. I'm not complaining about what DOES work ... but those things that do not.

Assuming that they way that you work is the 'right' way or that the way that Microsoft have implemented OneNote is the best way implies that Evernote are trying to meet that model. It's pretty clear from the way the application has been developed and the comments from the Evernote team that they do not plan to implement nested notebooks beyond the current Stacks in the near future.

Oh, don't get me wrong ... I don't for a moment think that my way is "right" ... but OTOH, I don't think it is "wrong" either. It is "different". (Actually, since I work differently in different situations the whole either/or thing does not apply.

They clearly don't want to emulate PC/Mac folder structures/OneNote.

Right ... or tags as implement in Gmail ... which is often used as an example of how great tagging can be. OTOH, the input being given here is that the implementation does not address the needs of some of us.

The joy of Evernote is that you can use it for free for as long as you want to. It seems you have a limited use case that it works for you with - access everywhere, but for everything else OneNote works better for you. Why not just use the best tool for the job for you?

Of course that is what I'm doing. I found myself limited in some ways by OneNote and sought to use Evernote. I got to this thread by searching the forums for "tags" and "folders" to try to discover how to do what I want to do. I've not found a way to do it yet in Evernote. I'm still trying. The worst case is that I stay with OneNote for most things and use Evernote only for those things I MUST have cross platform ... and bank statements are not one of them so that example is not a show stopper. BUT, if I could get that example handled, I'd bag all of my other solutions and use ONLY Evernote. I'm sure I have that in common with scads of other users.

Share this post


Link to post
Just another perspective: on the Internet you tend to find people come and gripe with problems or dislikes. What you don't see is the thousands of users NOT here because they are completely happy with the product.

Hi again! Yes, your observation is true. And kind of natural, don't you think? I mean why would people come to a forum to post if things are going well? This is a place for people with problems to solve. So what you get is "problems".

I'm not an evangelist and I'm not here to tell you your way of thinking is wrong. BUT I happen to like the stacks implementation JUST FINE. So I want it to stay the way it is.

So you would have a problem with allowing folders to nest? Could you just be content to not use that feature, were it implemented, and let those of us who want it have the feature? Is there something about giving others more features that gets in YOUR way?

So now tell me - who should Evernote listen to - you or me?

Well, if it is some kind of voting thing, I'd guess the propositions would have to be more well formed. You seem to be advocating for me to NOT have a feature. I'm not sure if that is what you really mean. I read you as saying that you are "content". In that case, your side of the argument should be something more like: "Do what you want but don't take away features X, Y, and Z, which I depend on." For my side I'm not advocating taking away features you like. Hell, keep "stacks" even though I see limited use for them. But ADD nested folders and REALLY nested tags. Make sense?

No product can please all the people all the time. Nor should any product try to be all things to all people.

I agree with the first part of that. In some cases needs can conflict. But I don't think that is the case here. If I can paraphrase the whole debate:

Argument: I need nested folders and/or truly nested tags to make this product useful to me.

Counter Argument: "No you don't!"

Really, that is how it has been going. Some very helpful advice on how to use the existing features of Evernote to get the job done has been offered. And the rest of it is: "No, you can't have that and if you want it you're wacko." I'm not sure if, over all, that is a helpful approach. Certainly ANYTHING can be implemented ... at some cost. The cost could be too high ... I get that.

What I have seen to work in the software development industry (and I've got almost 40 years under my belt) is keeping PUBLIC lists of "bugs" and "enhancements" with estimates of if and when they will be addressed in a new release. Along the lines of:

BUG: "Windows version crashes." To be fixed in June 2011 release.

Feature Request: "Add nested folders to arbitrary level" Requires major rewrite of 60% of code. No plans do it. Will add it to some future release that requires a major redesign.

Now there will still be those who will whine about it. "I'd buy it if you gave me that." But then the answer is there if they look at it. Who is going to tear up 60% of the code ... unless it has to be done anyway.

Share this post


Link to post
Yeah, ya gotta wonder why Evernote does not seem to LISTEN. What is requested is nested FOLDERS (feel free to call them notebooks if that rings your chimes). What we got was STACKS, which don't give the functionality requested.

Evernote does listen, but that doesn't mean that they choose to implement every user's suggestion. It's their design choice; it may not work for everyone, but that's OK, there are alternatives available. By the way, that's not to say that they won't change their minds about the nested folders, etc. that some of their users want, but there's been no external signals that that's going to happen (and I am not privy to inside information), and so we try to deal with Evernote as it exists today.

I guess what I'm thinking of is this: users have asked, for a long while, for nested folders. What was implemented was something else entirely. It is a bit like the problem you get with Microsoft. They ask the users what they want and then implement what Microsoft wants ... because they know better than the users what the users want. I mean who in hell actually asked them to redesign the GUI for Office 2010. It only caused confusion. OTOH, things that were a problem in Office 2007 are still there in Office 2010.

Right. It is a pain to have people saying that we don't REALLY know what want and if we would ONLY change the way we do things we would love what was offered. LOL ;-) The customer is always wrong?
No, most of us accept that you probably know what you want, but if that's not what Evernote offers, then you're not going to be happy. Again, Evernote is not for everyone. Frankly, if folks realize that fact earlier rather than later, that's better all around. But it's really ok to ask for features, at least in my book.

I guess that the problem occurs because someone tries to do something in Evernote, can't figure out how (because folders don't nest, for example) and one of two things happen:

1) He gets a very helpful suggestion about how to approach it differently, or

2) He is told that he should not be wanting to do that and if he wants to do it, he should get lost.

IOW, it only takes one arrogant post to fan the flames ;-)

I think that the real Evernote employees do that. They probably have some big list in an Evernote notebook somewhere with our concerns in them and are evaluating the cost benefit ratios. It is the "evangelists" who are evangelical and lose their sense of perspective sometimes. I must admit that I have gotten some very good suggestions from some of them. Without them this would be a very quiet place. Or the developers would not have time to develop. ;-)
Um, we "evangelists" (and that's Evernote's term) are different people. If you have a problem with an evangelist (or any other individual poster for that matter), then please address them individually. I see the good that BurgersNFries and metrodon do in the forums -- they help a lot of folks -- but I don't speak for them, nor they me. Please don't lump us all together.

I certainly don't mean to lump people together ... that is why I said "lose their perspective SOMETIMES". AND, I went on to point out the good suggestions I've seen, etc. I don't expect developers busy writing code to answer common questions. BUT, that is what FAQs are for, in addition to forums. And FAQs can evolve into real documentation, with a bit of work.

And I really do try to not get on anyone's case in particular ... unless it involves an all out personal attack. I get that frustration in handling the same question for the umteenth time can come across badly at times. I'd rather leave it vague and reference "some evangelists" than point fingers. Don't you think that is the better approach?

Share this post


Link to post
I guess what I'm thinking of is this: users have asked, for a long while, for nested folders. What was implemented was something else entirely. It is a bit like the problem you get with Microsoft. They ask the users what they want and then implement what Microsoft wants ... because they know better than the users what the users want. I mean who in hell actually asked them to redesign the GUI for Office 2010. It only caused confusion. OTOH, things that were a problem in Office 2007 are still there in Office 2010.

The name of the game here is that "those who make the soup get to choose what goes into it". As a designer/developer/architect, you listen to as many viewpoints as you can get, and mix that input with your own ideas, and choose what you're going to make. So yes, they implement what they want. And what's wrong with that? It's their livelihood that's on the line -- if they make bad choices, then they go out of business.

For the answer to your Microsoft question, you'll have to ask Microsoft. But you can bet that they don't idly make gratuitous changes to what remains a huge cash cow for them.

I guess that the problem occurs because someone tries to do something in Evernote, can't figure out how (because folders don't nest, for example) and one of two things happen:

1) He gets a very helpful suggestion about how to approach it differently, or

2) He is told that he should not be wanting to do that and if he wants to do it, he should get lost.

IOW, it only takes one arrogant post to fan the flames ;-)

If you wish to change the tone of the forums, then you could always start helping people in the way that you think is better -- there's always room for good helpers...

I certainly don't mean to lump people together ... that is why I said "lose their perspective SOMETIMES". AND, I went on to point out the good suggestions I've seen, etc. I don't expect developers busy writing code to answer common questions. BUT, that is what FAQs are for, in addition to forums. And FAQs can evolve into real documentation, with a bit of work.

And I really do try to not get on anyone's case in particular ... unless it involves an all out personal attack. I get that frustration in handling the same question for the umteenth time can come across badly at times. I'd rather leave it vague and reference "some evangelists" than point fingers. Don't you think that is the better approach?

When you say "the" evangelists (which is what I quoted), that's one thing. If you were to say "some" evangelists, then that's another thing. But I can see that you get the point, and I'll try to be a little less thin-skinned, so I'll leave it there.

Share this post


Link to post

I guess that the problem occurs because someone tries to do something in Evernote, can't figure out how (because folders don't nest, for example) and one of two things happen:

1) He gets a very helpful suggestion about how to approach it differently, or

2) He is told that he should not be wanting to do that and if he wants to do it, he should get lost

The last half of option #2 does occasionally happen (although not quite in those words) when someone insists on wanting to do something a particular way that is not implemented in Evernote. It's a reasonable reply. If being able to have skins, links and/or nested notebooks is a deal breaker, then Evernote is not going to be the app for that user. Can't say as I recall the first half of option #2 happening.

Share this post


Link to post
I guess what I'm thinking of is this: users have asked, for a long while, for nested folders. What was implemented was something else entirely. It is a bit like the problem you get with Microsoft. They ask the users what they want and then implement what Microsoft wants ... because they know better than the users what the users want. I mean who in hell actually asked them to redesign the GUI for Office 2010. It only caused confusion. OTOH, things that were a problem in Office 2007 are still there in Office 2010.

The name of the game here is that "those who make the soup get to choose what goes into it". As a designer/developer/architect, you listen to as many viewpoints as you can get, and mix that input with your own ideas, and choose what you're going to make. So yes, they implement what they want. And what's wrong with that? It's their livelihood that's on the line -- if they make bad choices, then they go out of business.

Yes, some of that is true. Of course you can design and implement any thing at all. The point is, if you want to SELL it, you need to answer a need of some kind. If people have a need and you don't answer it, then they will wander away. No designer has a crystal ball to tell him how much of a market is implied by any particular need, unfortunately.

As to the way products are designed ... that is a mixed bag, to be sure. The best ones are those which answer a clear need. They devolve as changes are made to add "bells and whistles" over time. Thus the importance of defining a clear model of the product at the outset. I've seen, for example, responses to requests here that are along the lines of: "Evernote is a document management system, not a storage management system." And that is a very valid response. Just because some realize that one CAN use it for storage does not mean that it is optomized for that use. To try to accommodate that would really hurt the system. OTOH, anything that gets in the way of using it to manage and store documents will hurt ... because that is the "vision" of Evernote.

A current analog to this is Amazon's Kindle. Those who decry that it is not back lit are missing the point. The "vision" of the Kindle is to act like a book ... and books are not back lit. OTOH, books also don't have adverts floating by as you are trying to read ... which the new Kindle is going to have. Therein lies a possibly serious flaw in Amazon's thinking. They have violated their own vision for the Kindle which, in Jeff Bezos' words is meant to "disappear" just as a book disappears as you read it and become involved in the story. It remains to be seen if JB's initial vision, which seems to have caught the public imagination, is all that important to the market. Perhaps not. Time will tell. Cadillac also comes to mind ... once they began to build mini-buses or whatever to appeal to "soccer moms", I think they damaged the reputation they developed over decades. Time was when you bought a Cadillac you announced to the world that you had "arrived". Now you just have car like any other. Now, if you want the same image, you need to buy a Bentley. ;-)

For the answer to your Microsoft question, you'll have to ask Microsoft. But you can bet that they don't idly make gratuitous changes to what remains a huge cash cow for them.

All you need do to answer that question is to use the product and then listen to the howls. MS is notorious for NOT listening to its users. I am quite sure that they waste innumerable hours in endless meetings ... but they mostly talk to each other and not to the real users. They persist in business because they have a monopoly ... or nearly so. Thinking about it now, I wonder how many inventors spend time reviewing FAILED products to understand what caused them to fail so they can avoid taking the same path. If one goes by basic quality and answering a need almost to perfection, then the Palm PDA should still be alive. It was not marginalized by the smart phone ... it vanished because Palm took its eye off of its market to manufacturer a smart phone and in the process, lost its following. Once the following was lost, it became just another entry in the smart phone market and other entries did it as well or better.

I guess that the problem occurs because someone tries to do something in Evernote, can't figure out how (because folders don't nest, for example) and one of two things happen:

1) He gets a very helpful suggestion about how to approach it differently, or

2) He is told that he should not be wanting to do that and if he wants to do it, he should get lost.

IOW, it only takes one arrogant post to fan the flames ;-)

If you wish to change the tone of the forums, then you could always start helping people in the way that you think is better -- there's always room for good helpers...

I'd be happy to ... but I really have very little to offer. I'm still trying to figure out how to use the product. I learned how to use watched (or "import") folders today. Pretty nice. But I'm still fighting the issues of security, folders, and tags. The net is that for each document I think I might want to put into Evernote I have to judge if there is some way to tag it, some good folder to put it into, and screen it for identity theft issues. I've finally given up on trying to understand Evernote security. I now assume that there is none at all and anything I put there is open to the world (or that part of it who are interested enough in hacking). What with Dropbox and other storage solutions offering no better security there seems to be no simple solution for secure universal access at the moment. We seem to be reduced to buying mass storage from Amazon and using TrueCrypt to handle our own security.

But just to answer one of your points ... I do get it about market forces. I really don't think that most people know or care about security so I get that Evernote is not interested in providing a secure solution. Why bother if only a handful of people want it? I think that folders and tags are more of an issue, however. Those hinder the products usefulness for its INTENDED purpose. But we shall see.

I certainly don't mean to lump people together ... that is why I said "lose their perspective SOMETIMES". AND, I went on to point out the good suggestions I've seen, etc. I don't expect developers busy writing code to answer common questions. BUT, that is what FAQs are for, in addition to forums. And FAQs can evolve into real documentation, with a bit of work.

And I really do try to not get on anyone's case in particular ... unless it involves an all out personal attack. I get that frustration in handling the same question for the umteenth time can come across badly at times. I'd rather leave it vague and reference "some evangelists" than point fingers. Don't you think that is the better approach?

When you say "the" evangelists (which is what I quoted), that's one thing. If you were to say "some" evangelists, then that's another thing. But I can see that you get the point, and I'll try to be a little less thin-skinned, so I'll leave it there.

Yeah, let's put it down to my having not worded it as well as I might have. ;-)

Share this post


Link to post

I guess that the problem occurs because someone tries to do something in Evernote, can't figure out how (because folders don't nest, for example) and one of two things happen:

1) He gets a very helpful suggestion about how to approach it differently, or

2) He is told that he should not be wanting to do that and if he wants to do it, he should get lost

The last half of option #2 does occasionally happen (although not quite in those words) when someone insists on wanting to do something a particular way that is not implemented in Evernote. It's a reasonable reply. If being able to have skins, links and/or nested notebooks is a deal breaker, then Evernote is not going to be the app for that user. Can't say as I recall the first half of option #2 happening.

I think that the issue should NOT be "is Evernote IMPLEMENTED that way" but rather "would the intended purpose of Evernote benefit by doing things differently?

I remember, in a previous life, chairing a weekly change control meeting for a large software company. As I was fighting to stay awake an item came up, reported by an end user, that when he produced a data base report using a certain query, it would display hundreds of blank records and sort them to the top so he would get his headers with blank lines for pages upon pages. The chief programmer for the database section was there to evaluate the cost to fix this and his position was that it was the USER's problem. If the user submitted a query that matched blank records then it was his fault. Of course, that is just plain daft ... the user is PAYING for the program and should get what HE thinks is right. So after some back and forth about what the problem really was, in what I thought was a blinding flash of insight (to me, not the data base programmer ;-) he exclaimed: "This is NOT a bug. It works as coded!" OMG, of course it does ... EVERYTHING works as coded!

To me this defined the kind of blindness that coders have toward the concerns of users. Having been on both sides of that divide, I see it pretty clearly. Yeah, users can break software by being morons, but those morons pay the bills and keep the lights on so ... Or put in the words of someone more quick witted than I:

- "How's Business?"

-- "Oh wonderful ... except for the damned customers."

Share this post


Link to post
I think that the issue should NOT be "is Evernote IMPLEMENTED that way" but rather "would the intended purpose of Evernote benefit by doing things differently?

That may well be what you think. And I think. And the guy next door thinks. But what we think doesn't matter if EN devs don't think it and/or EN doesn't do it. To clarify, Evernote evangelists are simply users, just like you. We don't code for EN. We don't work for EN. Our opinions are not any more significant than yours when it comes to what EN will or will not do today, tomorrow or next week. So proposing alternate methods/workarounds and/or moving to another app are perfectly acceptable solutions.

Share this post


Link to post
I think that the issue should NOT be "is Evernote IMPLEMENTED that way" but rather "would the intended purpose of Evernote benefit by doing things differently?

That may well be what you think. And I think. And the guy next door thinks. But what we think doesn't matter if EN devs don't think it and/or EN doesn't do it.

It is not a question of WHO THINKS it, it is a matter of what question is being considered. The FIRST question was: "How can I do this." To which the answer was: "You can't. You have to change your data to accommodate the program." The NEXT question, or better ... request ... was: "Yeah, but I really need a program to manage MY structure, not to change my structure to accommodate a program." And that is where we are at this point. So it really IS a case of "implemented" vs. "add a feature". I GET that folders don't nest NOW and tags don't nest NOW. I have no clue what is intended for the future as the developers have not addressed the issue (at least not that I have seen).

To clarify, Evernote evangelists are simply users, just like you. We don't code for EN. We don't work for EN. Our opinions are not any more significant than yours when it comes to what EN will or will not do today, tomorrow or next week. So proposing alternate methods/workarounds and/or moving to another app are perfectly acceptable solutions.

I have not thought otherwise. I can read the side bar as well as anyone else and I can see when a developer is responding. My point has more to do with the logic of the responses than the logic of the alternatives. You are really too bright a person to not get what my point is.

I remember, about two years ago coming here for help with an installation bug. The response I got (from you, I think) was that I need to learn how to install a windows program correctly. (Not those words, but that idea.) Ticked me off. Dave E. then emailed me with a link to an installer that did NOT have the KNOWN BUG I had encountered. In 5 minutes I had EN installed. The point is that not everyone who has a problem is a moron. Some are, but some are not ... and even those who are, are not necessarily morons in THIS case.

Share this post


Link to post
It is not a question of WHO THINKS it, it is a matter of what question is being considered. The FIRST question was: "How can I do this." To which the answer was: "You can't. You have to change your data to accommodate the program." The NEXT question, or better ... request ... was: "Yeah, but I really need a program to manage MY structure, not to change my structure to accommodate a program." And that is where we are at this point. So it really IS a case of "implemented" vs. "add a feature". I GET that folders don't nest NOW and tags don't nest NOW. I have no clue what is intended for the future as the developers have not addressed the issue (at least not that I have seen).

Yeah, it kind of is "who" thinks it. This isn't DrPhil.com - so if the software can do something, users here on the board can help. If it doesn't, users here on the board can offer workarounds. If it doesn't & it's a deal breaker, then find something else. EN developers may or may not be implementing that feature. If it's on their to do list, it may be a while before it's rolled out.

We're really going around in circles here, nothing new to see. So I'm bowing out of this convo.

BTW:

I remember, about two years ago coming here for help with an installation bug. The response I got (from you, I think) was that I need to learn how to install a windows program correctly. (Not those words, but that idea.) Ticked me off. Dave E. then emailed me with a link to an installer that did NOT have the KNOWN BUG I had encountered. In 5 minutes I had EN installed. The point is that not everyone who has a problem is a moron. Some are, but some are not ... and even those who are, are not necessarily morons in THIS case.

Which user name was that? Your current one shows you joined Nov 2010 & first post was Dec 2010. I checked your posting history & didn't see anything that was blatantly about an installation problem, under this login. I didn't read all 18 of your posts, so please point out the one you're referring to.

Share this post


Link to post
Guest
This topic is now closed to further replies.
Sign in to follow this  

×
×
  • Create New...