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dormouse

(Archived) Crisis of confidence

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I started as a 2.2 user, and have had a look at 3.0. For most uses, I miss the lost features of 2.2 but do see a few things I would use 3.0 for in preference to 2.2.

However, one of the questions I always ask with databases is whether the format/software/hardware will live as long as I need the data to. When I looked for a database prog for my photos, one essential feature was that it could export into a mainstream database format or used a mainstream database format. Having everything in a mainstream format is about the only way of ensuring access in to the long term.

Evernote may change the format dramatically and stop support for the old format.

Evernote may go bust.

Windows may change dramatically (and, much more likely, I may switch completely to Linux).

So, for me to put a lot in that I may want very long term means that I need to be certain I can access it again (as a database), even if Evernote is no more. I don't see a way to export a database so that it can be read by other programs (I'm sure it can be done, but its not something I would want to try to do). If a program is used by a vast number of people then new programs will offer ways of importing the data into them, but this is less likely if the program is less popular (eg virtually all email progs could import emails from Outlook Express, virtually none could import from Calypso). Currently Evernote is not so huge that its hugeness offers protection.

There is a tradition of proprietary programs not offering good export facilities. I assume this is because they think it makes it harder for users to leave (I'm not sure that's right because a lot of people like me won't go in if they think they may find leaving difficult), so I do understand this. But at least for the moment, I think I'm a bit wary of putting long-term stuff into Evernote, unless there is some reassurance about how I could migrate the data back out again. My confidence is not helped by the fact that you cannot import 2.2 databases into 3 and retain the organisation and functionality that they had with 2.2.

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As I see it, Evernote is shooting itself in the foot with v3.0.

Confidence is VERY important in an information manager. From what I have seen in the interactions between Evernote and their power-users, Evernote does not seem to care what the users want. Their corporate agenda seems to be all that matters.

With v3.0 all my information is 'in the clouds'. If I am offline, or something else changes, as Dormouse suggested, I have lost all my information. This is not acceptible for any information I NEED.

I would say someone from Evernote, in an OFFICIAL STATEMENT, needs to clarify what all is going to be implimented into v3, and what the overall direction and vision their company has for Evernote as a program.

We should be 'In the loop' on what is happening, else why should we risk storing our data with them?

Gary

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Seriously... what was wrong with making EN2.2 sync to the web and devices without re-inventing the wheel???

v2.2 was far more efficient to use, but I really like the sync capabilities of v3 :(

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Part of the reason that I'm solidifying moving to TheBrain is that it can run on other platforms and that my attachments are available either linked or in their native format.

I don't want to go through what EverNote is putting me through now again.

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What is happening is exactly what I was talking about.

Putting all your information into one place is making a commitment. One that requires confidence in the company supporting the software.

We could be jumping the gun, and v3.x might end up with all the features of v2.2, plus many. We do not know, because any official spokespeople will not step forward and encourage us.

Again, most of the confusion of this forum would end if an official Evernote Representative would step forward and clearly state what Evernote will have, and not have. Then us users would have the information to make our minds up as to if this is will continue to be the product we need.

I guess the fact that we seem to be out of the loop is what bothers me most.

Gary

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I started as a 2.2 user, and have had a look at 3.0. For most uses, I miss the lost features of 2.2 but do see a few things I would use 3.0 for in preference to 2.2.

However, one of the questions I always ask with databases is whether the format/software/hardware will live as long as I need the data to. When I looked for a database prog for my photos, one essential feature was that it could export into a mainstream database format or used a mainstream database format. Having everything in a mainstream format is about the only way of ensuring access in to the long term.

Evernote may change the format dramatically and stop support for the old format.

Evernote may go bust.

Windows may change dramatically (and, much more likely, I may switch completely to Linux).

So, for me to put a lot in that I may want very long term means that I need to be certain I can access it again (as a database), even if Evernote is no more. I don't see a way to export a database so that it can be read by other programs (I'm sure it can be done, but its not something I would want to try to do).

Is there any other notetaking program that would let you export as a database?

Seems like Evernote will eventually have an xml format which would let programmers link it to other software... which of course is useless unless a programmer goes through the effort to do so.

There is (I think) an export to email option, which might also give some flexibility. You can probably search email programs like a database, and if other notetaking programs support email import, you are set. I haven't tested it though.

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Evernote will introduce a simple, cross-platform XML export format can be used from both Mac and Windows. You could use this to export one or many notes into a file that would be relatively easy to parse with standard tools. This is in addition to existing HTML export, email, etc, and programmatic APIs that we will open up once they are a little more mature and documented.

We have absolutely no desire to have exclusive control over your notes and memories. You own those, and we will always offer multiple ways for you to get them.

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Evernote will introduce a simple, cross-platform XML export format can be used from both Mac and Windows.

...

We have absolutely no desire to have exclusive control over your notes and memories. You own those, and we will always offer multiple ways for you to get them.

Thanks for this. I never thought EN wanted to own the data, and obviously the data itself is pretty safe and can be exported atm.

It is the organisation of the data, and the tags etc, that is the issue, because that does take quite a lot of work/time and it is important to be confident that it can be got out structure intact that is important. Does not matter immediately (otherwise I would not be using EN), but important that it can be done should the need ever develop.

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With v3.0 all my information is 'in the clouds'. If I am offline, or something else changes, as Dormouse suggested, I have lost all my information. This is not acceptible for any information I NEED.

Gary, is there a reason you didn't put your notes in a LOCAL PRIVATE notebook so they could be accessible on the unconnected PC?

While I have not used the PRIVATE notebook am I wrong in assuming that the data is actually ON the PC and being SYNCed to the cloud - SYNC implying that it exists on BOTH media?

I have no use for the online copy so I just use the local PRIVATE notebook.

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If you put your information in the LOCAL notebook, it is kept in your computer only. No Sync whatsoever.

If you put your information in the PRIVATE notebook, it is kept 'In the clouds' only. No data is kept on your computer.

I like the LOCAL notebook, and am using it for my sensitive data. It is secure because I alone have it.

My only concern now is that if my internet connection drops, or their server goes down, I will not have access to my PRIVATE notebook.

Is there a way the PRIVATE notebook can be stored on our computer, as well as in the clouds? Have it sync exactly as it does now, just maintain a copy on our computers.

Some people are just hard to please. :lol:

Gary

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My only concern now is that if my internet connection drops, or their server goes down, I will not have access to my PRIVATE notebook.

An internet connection is not required to work on your private notebooks either. Windows client retains a local copy of all your data, so you can work with all your notes for as long as you like, while being offline. The only thing you can't do while being offline, is sync.

The only time the internet connection is required, is logging in to the account for the first time (this is where you should provide your username and password, and they will be validated against the service prior to creating your local note storage file).

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Hmmm...

Whenever I've logged onto my computer, I've logged onto EV.

I had not tried to just bypass logging in.

I'll have to get back with you on that one.

Gary

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O.K. I stand corrected. (Well, I am sitting...)

I tried it, and if I do not log in, and choose 'Work Offline', Everything is there.

It even re-prompts me for my password when I click 'Work Offline' again.

Nice Job.

Note: If I click 'Work Offline', it goes into offline mode, so that is OK.

Should that menu item change to 'Work Online' so if I choose it, I will go online? It already works that way, the prompt just needs to change.

EV is starting to really get there... Now if we had several old features back... (Oops, wrong thread)

Gary

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EV is starting to really get there
What do you mean? EN3 was already there when you posted your rant on Saturday. If you had of put as much time into testing the feature you were complaining about (a major design one at that) as you did posting that comment you would have seen that you can quite happily work offline with all your data using the client. Try the feature you want first, then read the help and FAQs if it isn't there, THEN post a thread here asking how to do it or why it's not there. Otherwise all the good suggestions and comments for Evernote (the wheat) are going to be lost amongst all the speculation and laziness (the chaff).

-CD

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I love superior jerks that want to admonish people for expressing a thought. Who cares if a gripe turns out to be unfounded? Probably more person than one had the same gripe and because it brought up here they all know that private data is stored locally and is available offline. Open communication has value. It's ok to be incorrect. Wrong ideas often lead to breakthroughs. Don't let some smug jerk keep you from posting.

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Thank You Arbitrary and Crane.

If I choose cancel when EN prompted for my password, the program would grey, and minimize. By that action I figured it would not work unless a password was entered. It should notify you that a password was not entered, and that the program will be in offline mode until a correct password is provided.

That was not even the point of the post.

I was discussing confidence, which I stand by. A simple statement from some official would end this thread one way or the other.

Their not letting us know either way is what is what is shaking my confidence and I am sure there are several others that feel the way I do.

-Gary

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Thank You Arbitrary and Crane.

If I choose cancel when EN prompted for my password, the program would grey, and minimize. By that action I figured it would not work unless a password was entered. It should notify you that a password was not entered, and that the program will be in offline mode until a correct password is provided.

That was not even the point of the post.

I was discussing confidence, which I stand by. A simple statement from some official would end this thread one way or the other.

Their not letting us know either way is what is what is shaking my confidence and I am sure there are several others that feel the way I do.

-Gary

Remember when things get bad they can always be worse...

Just be glad your not on a Creative Labs Message board for some driver issue :)

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Again, Evernote already offers a half-dozen standards-based ways to get Notes into and out of the system (HTML, SMTP, IMAP, POP, PDF, email notes, etc.), and we're adding more like a full and open XML-based export/import format and an open API for third-party integrations. Off the top of my head, I can't think of any comparable companies that are doing more to ensure that you maintain full access and control over your data.

We appreciate the help & feedback during the beta period of this product. We're trying to do a lot of interesting things at the same time right now with a finite number of engineers, so if we haven't gotten to 100% of the things you'd like at this point in the beta, it's probably because we haven't had enough hours in the day to get to all of them yet. ;-)

Thanks for your patience.

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We appreciate the help & feedback during the beta period of this product. We're trying to do a lot of interesting things at the same time right now with a finite number of engineers, so if we haven't gotten to 100% of the things you'd like at this point in the beta, it's probably because we haven't had enough hours in the day to get to all of them yet. ;-)

Thanks for your patience.

It's not so much that you guys haven't been able to satisfy 100% of the things that we want, it's that you won't tell us whether or not they're ever going to be satisfied. For instance, I have yet to see someone in EN say that we're going to one day get more than 32 saved searches. Or the ability to manually sort tags. Or the ability to have saved searches on tag (i.e., automatic categories), or, or, or....

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We appreciate the help & feedback during the beta period of this product. We're trying to do a lot of interesting things at the same time right now with a finite number of engineers, so if we haven't gotten to 100% of the things you'd like at this point in the beta, it's probably because we haven't had enough hours in the day to get to all of them yet. ;-)

Thanks for your patience.

Thank You!

What had been surprising me, is that you are really on top of things. If somebody thinks they have a bug, you are right there to tell them a workaround, and assure them that someone is looking into it, and that is great!

A complete re-write takes time, and sometimes features get changed, and re-named. I am willing to bear with you and change with the program, as long as I know that in the end, the product will do most of what it did do, in one form or another.

-Gary

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It's not so much that you guys haven't been able to satisfy 100% of the things that we want, it's that you won't tell us whether or not they're ever going to be satisfied. For instance, I have yet to see someone in EN say that we're going to one day get more than 32 saved searches. Or the ability to manually sort tags. Or the ability to have saved searches on tag (i.e., automatic categories), or, or, or....

We've tried to make a significant effort at being transparent in where we are and where we're going (e.g. see Phil's stickied post), but we're a bit gun-shy of trying to making precise statements about when and how every part of the product will work across all supported platforms on a particular date. (People are good at finding old posts and using the 'quote' feature ...)

E.g. no matter how many times we say that the beta storage limit (100MB) is temporary, there are a dozen posts assuming the worst intentions for future limits (e.g. http://forum.evernote.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5998#p22403). We haven't figured out the final Free and Premium limits yet, since we need to calculate costs (storage, hosting fees, bandwidth, etc.) based on real usage patterns from the ongoing beta. Since we don't have the final numbers for our costs, we don't have the final price and capacity levels. We'll announce them as soon as we think we have a realistic model for a sustainable business. While I understand that many people would like to know the final numbers today, we're not withholding them out of malice ... we just don't know all of the final answers yet, and don't want to give out wrong answers.

The issue is similar for (your example) the number of saved searches. We understand that many people would like to save more than 32 searches, and we're trying to figure out the best way to achieve this goal. The solution isn't as simple as just changing the number "32" to "1000" due to the way this interacts with other aspects of the system and UI. For example, your list of saved searches is displayed in the mobile phone UI (http://preview.evernote.com/m). While I could imagine scrolling through 32 items on a RAZR, this UI option would become unusable if you had 999 searches. Same thing with a flat list of 32 searches on the desktop UI (etc.). So until we feel like we have the right solution to a requested feature that works cleanly across our supported platforms, the answer is:

Thanks for the feedback, we hear what you're looking for and are working long hours to provide a clean solution to your requirements as part of Evernote 3.

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It's not so much that you guys haven't been able to satisfy 100% of the things that we want, it's that you won't tell us whether or not they're ever going to be satisfied. For instance, I have yet to see someone in EN say that we're going to one day get more than 32 saved searches. Or the ability to manually sort tags. Or the ability to have saved searches on tag (i.e., automatic categories), or, or, or....

We've tried to make a significant effort at being transparent in where we are and where we're going (e.g. see Phil's stickied post), but we're a bit gun-shy of trying to making precise statements about when and how every part of the product will work across all supported platforms on a particular date. (People are good at finding old posts and using the 'quote' feature ...)

E.g. no matter how many times we say that the beta storage limit (100MB) is temporary, there are a dozen posts assuming the worst intentions for future limits (e.g. http://forum.evernote.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5998#p22403). We haven't figured out the final Free and Premium limits yet, since we need to calculate costs (storage, hosting fees, bandwidth, etc.) based on real usage patterns from the ongoing beta. Since we don't have the final numbers for our costs, we don't have the final price and capacity levels. We'll announce them as soon as we think we have a realistic model for a sustainable business. While I understand that many people would like to know the final numbers today, we're not withholding them out of malice ... we just don't know all of the final answers yet, and don't want to give out wrong answers.

The issue is similar for (your example) the number of saved searches. We understand that many people would like to save more than 32 searches, and we're trying to figure out the best way to achieve this goal. The solution isn't as simple as just changing the number "32" to "1000" due to the way this interacts with other aspects of the system and UI. For example, your list of saved searches is displayed in the mobile phone UI (http://preview.evernote.com/m). While I could imagine scrolling through 32 items on a RAZR, this UI option would become unusable if you had 999 searches. Same thing with a flat list of 32 searches on the desktop UI (etc.).

Your post is not the least bit comforting to me. What I am hearing is that the features of EN3.x will be limited to what is deemed usable on the lowliest of platforms, i.3., a RAZR! That certainly doesn't bode well for most, if not all, of the features I want to see restored.

So until we feel like we have the right solution to a requested feature that works cleanly across our supported platforms, the answer is:

Thanks for the feedback, we hear what you're looking for and are working long hours to provide a clean solution to your requirements as part of Evernote 3.

Increasingly, I'm hearing what you're not saying. Not a whole lot one can do with current technology on a 1"x2" screen, is there?

Do you see what we're upset about here? It's as though M$ released a version of XL for Palm (which there is), and then reduced the feature set of the full-blown version to match the Palm version. Talk about shooting yourself in the foot!

I hope you guys know what you're doing. I'm not convinced.

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Your post is not the least bit comforting to me. What I am hearing is that the features of EN3.x will be limited to what is deemed usable on the lowliest of platforms, i.3., a RAZR! That certainly doesn't bode well for most, if not all, of the features I want to see restored.

The risk of having our words interpreted in the worst possible way like this is a bit of a deterrent to us trying to provide precise information before we have the 100% exact answer defined and implemented.

I was giving a specific example of a way that a technical feature has multiple implications, and we want to provide a solution that addresses these as cleanly as possible. Clearly, we have lots of features that are not exposed in the mobile web UI (e.g. Notebooks) and mobile support is not a barrier to implementing future features.

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The risk of having our words interpreted in the worst possible way like this is a bit of a deterrent to us trying to provide precise information before we have the 100% exact answer defined and implemented.

Touche! (I can't get the 'e' with an accent)

Well said.

I will be patient, and assume you all will try to get as many functions as possible.

Keep up the good work.

-Gary

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E.g. no matter how many times we say that the beta storage limit (100MB) is temporary, there are a dozen posts assuming the worst intentions for future limits (e.g. http://forum.evernote.com/phpbb/viewtopic.php?f=30&t=5998#p22403). We haven't figured out the final Free and Premium limits yet, since we need to calculate costs (storage, hosting fees, bandwidth, etc.) based on real usage patterns from the ongoing beta. Since we don't have the final numbers for our costs, we don't have the final price and capacity levels. We'll announce them as soon as we think we have a realistic model for a sustainable business. While I understand that many people would like to know the final numbers today, we're not withholding them out of malice ... we just don't know all of the final answers yet, and don't want to give out wrong answers.

First of all, I doubt that you've seen the power users asking over and over again about the storage limit. Yes, you've been getting repeated questions about it, but it's always newbies, i.e., <10 posts on the forum. It goes something like this: Newbie tries out 3b. Newbie curious about storage limit. Newbie no know how search forum. Newbie ask question. Repeat.

You'll also note that I didn't put this topic in my list gripes. I've heard, over and over again, that the 100MB limit is temporary, that it will be increased, that there will be a fee-based system, yadda yadda. I'm not asking about that. Given an official EN answer, I'm content to sit and wait on this topic.

The issue is similar for (your example) the number of saved searches. We understand that many people would like to save more than 32 searches, and we're trying to figure out the best way to achieve this goal. The solution isn't as simple as just changing the number "32" to "1000" due to the way this interacts with other aspects of the system and UI. For example, your list of saved searches is displayed in the mobile phone UI (http://preview.evernote.com/m). While I could imagine scrolling through 32 items on a RAZR, this UI option would become unusable if you had 999 searches. Same thing with a flat list of 32 searches on the desktop UI (etc.).

Second. This is the first time that I've seen an EN poster discuss the whole 32 saved searches problem. Why not just give us this explanation when we first asked about it. I've bitched about it numerous times, and *now* I have the official party line that `saved searches conflict with other aspects of the system and UI'. Far be it for me to figure out exactly what the problems are; after all, it used to be possible in 2.2, but that's a dead horse I'm beating. That said, I'm glad to hear *some* kind of answer on this. Now we can begin dialogue, if required. Such as salgud's comments that the mobile UI should not be the limiting factor for functionality.

Third, and this goes back to my rant about users and developers, what the #$@%$ is a RAZR? Would that be one of those new-fangled camera gadgets that do geosynching, and you can talk on them? Not all of us users are living in silicon valley with all the coolest toys. I'd dearly love to see the data on your demographics - are your users really who you think they are?

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Third, and this goes back to my rant about users and developers, what the #$@%$ is a RAZR? Would that be one of those new-fangled camera gadgets that do geosynching, and you can talk on them?

A RAZR is actually a lower-end camera phone from Motorola that was pretty hot ~3 years ago, but has become sort of commodity since then. (-$50 with activation, according to Amazon) I was using "RAZR" as a colorful way of saying "a common phone with a phone-sized screen and a numeric keypad".

And, again, I was providing one arbitrary example of one implication of changing one feature in the product ... "when we change X, we'll want to make some corresponding changes to Y, so let's figure out how to do that right." I didn't think that a reasonable reader would interpret this as "Evernote will never include any features that can't be implemented on a cameraphone," but I may be rusty in such matters.

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And, again, I was providing one arbitrary example of one implication of changing one feature in the product ... "when we change X, we'll want to make some corresponding changes to Y, so let's figure out how to do that right." I didn't think that a reasonable reader would interpret this as "Evernote will never include any features that can't be implemented on a cameraphone," but I may be rusty in such matters.

I have no problem at all with the "when we change x..." rationale. It makes perfect sense, and I'm sure that most, if not all of us, are okay with that. I think the complaint that keeps popping up in this (and other) threads is that sometimes you guys just don't say *anything* about something that we're asking for. It's said that "no news is good news", but based on past experiences in this forum, silence from the EN team means that they don't want to deal with what we're requesting. The silence is deafening, so to speak.

I hope that this current spate of honest talk between us can continue :)

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I have no problem at all with the "when we change x..." rationale. It makes perfect sense, and I'm sure that most, if not all of us, are okay with that. I think the complaint that keeps popping up in this (and other) threads is that sometimes you guys just don't say *anything* about something that we're asking for. It's said that "no news is good news", but based on past experiences in this forum, silence from the EN team means that they don't want to deal with what we're requesting. The silence is deafening, so to speak.

We'll definitely keep you all in the loop as much as possible as soon as we figure out the right answers.

(Of course, this means that mild-mannered engineers like me have to take the time and risk personal grief to provide this information versus just keeping busy implementing solutions, so we can all aim for a level of civility/charability when we read each other's posts. ;-) )

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Let me raise again a question that I've asked before. (It may be technologically naive, because I'm not a programmer, but at least it would be nice to hear an authoritative answer from the management.)

If many of the capabilities of EN 2.2 are being sacrificed because of the limitations of the Web, the mysterious RAZR, etc., why can't EN 3 make an even sharper distinction between local and synchronized notebooks? When I create a new local notebook in EN 3, I get this message: "Notes in local notebooks are stored on only this computer and are not synchronized. Please note that you can't change this notebook's type later." So, in other words, there is already an absolute barrier between local notebooks and synchronized ones. Fair enough. But since that's the case, why can't EN 3 offer different (i.e. enhanced) capabilities in local notebooks only?

Then the Synchronized Flavor of EN 3 could please the wine-bottle/airline-receipt crowd (who presumably would pour vast quantities of money into EN's coffers), and the Local Flavor of EN 3 would reassure the power users (who would provide less revenue but would spread the fame of EN among more demanding customers in the business and academic worlds). And no doubt in practice most people would have both synchronized and local notebooks, but they would be cheered by the realization that the local ones would still have the brilliant organizational features of EN 2.2.

Is this not possible?

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wsp -

None of these things are an issue of "won't do" or "can't do", it's just a question of "which first?" For example, encryption is an existing 2.2 feature that is really important to a lot of people. The current Mac release doesn't support it at all.

The engineers have been working hard over the last couple of weeks to get encryption working on the Mac client which will be compatible with Windows (encrypt on either, decrypt on either), and backward compatible with 2.2 so that you can import 2.2 notes with encryption, sync them to the server, and read them on the Mac without having to do any work yourself.

This is an important 2.2 feature that's required several engineer-weeks to fully support, and the resulting build is in QA for release next week (knock on wood, don't hold me to that, etc.).

Why did we spend these weeks of labor on the encryption feature from 2.2 (which you may not use) instead of feature X or Y that you do use? (Or why did we fix bugs A,B,C,D,E,F,G,H,I,J,K,L&M this week instead of implementing feature X?) There's no simple answer to this other than: these seem to be at the top of the list for for a lot people. Now that we've checked off that feature, we can move to the next one down the list.

I know that the ~8 weeks of the beta might feel like a long time if you're waiting for one particular thing, but in engineering-time with bug fixing and QA and system administration and eating and sleeping thrown in, that's actually pretty short, given the number of things we're doing for the first time right now...

http://evernote.com/about/support/release_notes/

http://preview.evernote.com/pub/evernote-release/notes/

So, again, we'd ask for a little patience if the current beta release doesn't do 100% of the things you want ... if this beta test product doesn't meet your needs, we're very happy if 2.2 does.

Thanks

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Dave, I wasn't asking for the return of any particular feature of 2.2. I was just posing a theoretical question (to which I genuinely don't know the answer) about whether something was technically possible -- to have a separate set of commands and capabilities for the local notebooks.

I offered this suggestion, in what I think was a friendly spirit, as one possible means of reconciling the different universes of 2.2 and 3.0.

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While I appreciate the somewhat official response by 'dengberg', I really have to question the merit of releasing the beta so soon. If it is a total rewrite, and the 2.2 features are, supposedly, being worked on, then the beta release probably should have waited until most of those features were there. For me, and many others as far as I can tell, 3.0 is useless in it's current release. The lack of support for the templates makes it a show stopper for me. I don't care about the whole web integration piece. It is a nice to have, but not that important. If EN really wanted to keep it's existing user base happy, the 2.2 features should have been the first things ported over and not 'cloud' stuff. Or, as I said above, wait to release the beta until the 2.2 stuff was mostly implemented.

And I am still not convinced that the really useful 2.2 stuff is going to be implemented. I have yet to see anything that says otherwise. 'Dengberg's' responses have not really said anything beyond the storage limit-which means nothing to me-and the 32 search limit (for RAZR, c'mon.)

The lack of response from EN over in the '2.2 features are dead' thread only perpetuates these ideas. I only stumbled across dengberg's responses because someone linked to this thread from that one. And his/her snarky response about answering these threads instead of working on the product is a real smack in the face as well. Yeah, it is a pain, and probably not their job, but apparently EN values it's reputation and customer's very little since they have to pull a programmer off of the job to do pr here.

Nice.

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WSP -

Thanks, we'll give that some thought, but there's a risk of confusing new users if we have different (i.e. inconsistent) behavior between similar-looking things in the UI.

For example, if you could make a note in a local notebook based on non-portable Win32-only binary template code, but you couldn't make that same note in the private notebooks, then you'd get weird inconsistencies when you tried to move notes from local to private: some notes would work, others would pop up a cryptic "this note uses a non-portable Win32 feature, so you can't move it" dialog. If you tried to move five notes, and three couldn't work, what's the right behavior?

While I see the general motivation for your suggestion, I tend to be more inclined towards giving us a little extra time so that we can implement the right portable solution ... e.g. a visual template solution based on something like CSS that would work consistently on Mac, Web, and Windows.

I realize that means it will take longer to get where you want to go, but the end result may be more satisfactory for everyone. In the mean time, if 2.2 does everything you want, stick with that instead of doing more beta testing ... it's the currently-supported shipping product, and if it ain't broke for you, don't fix it.

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The lack of response from EN over in the '2.2 features are dead' thread only perpetuates these ideas. I only stumbled across dengberg's responses because someone linked to this thread from that one. And his/her snarky response about answering these threads instead of working on the product is a real smack in the face as well.

The tone of a lot of these messages does not seem to be actually soliciting technical information ... if someone like me actually does try to provide answers, that's met with rapier-tip sarcasm and willful misinterpretation. (E.g. reread this thread.)

A few short weeks ago, Evernote made an early beta release available and repeatedly warned everyone (here, and in some cases on the phone!) that:

(1) this is an early beta

(2) it doesn't include every feature you may expect, yet

(3) we're working hard on it, bear with us

(4) if it doesn't suit your needs, then you should definitely stick with 2.2 instead of testing this beta

To unfairly paraphrase the criticisms:

(1) this software feels like an early beta

(2) it doesn't include every feature I expect

(3) is Evernote working on it?

(4) this really doesn't suit my current needs.

We really are working on it, and hope to make it a great product for your needs as soon as possible.

And, to be fair, I'm the CTO even though I do a lot of programming, so no pity is needed for me. The vast Evernote PR team in our volcano lair HQ would prefer not to make predictions about when your favorite feature will be implemented, so I'm as good a person as anyone.

Thanks

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The tone of a lot of these messages do not seem to be actually soliciting technical information ... if someone like me actually does try to provide answers, that's met with rapier-tip sarcasm and willful misinterpretation. (E.g. reread this thread.)

I think frustration from the lack of response-until now-sums it up for me. I kept going to the thread where I expected-as others did-some kind of response and never got one. And there were questions posed like 'are templates going to be supported?' and they were met with silence from EN.

A few short weeks ago, Evernote made an early beta release available and repeatedly warned everyone (here, and in some cases on the phone!) that:

(1) this is an early beta

(2) it doesn't include every feature you may expect, yet

(3) we're working hard on it, bear with us

(4) if it doesn't suit your needs, then you should definitely stick with 2.2 instead of testing this beta

I don't expect a beta release to be feature complete and bug free. I am a programmer myself and fully understand this. I love getting beta software and trying it out. What I don't like is silence or even 'yeah, that stuff is coming'. I have not seen that here.

To unfairly paraphrase the criticisms:

(1) this software feels like an early beta

(2) it doesn't include every feature I expect

(3) is Evernote working on it?

(4) this really doesn't suit my current needs.

We really are working on it, and hope to make it a great product for your needs as soon as possible.

Fair enough and guilty of #3 and #4. Again, though, I would offer up the notion that it was just too early for such a wide beta release. Please do not misunderstand, I appreciate the opportunity to try it out, but I do think such a wide release was just too soon in your development cycle. A later release with more of the 2.2 stuff probably would have avoided your user base going ballistic.

And, to be fair, I'm the CTO even though I do a lot of programming, so no pity is needed for me. The vast Evernote PR team in our volcano lair HQ would prefer not to make predictions about when your favorite feature will be implemented, so I'm as good a person as anyone.

Thanks

Thanks for your repsonse.

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Again, though, I would offer up the notion that it was just too early for such a wide beta release.

I hear what you're saying on this. We spent a lot of time internally trying to figure out how to balance "early access == early feedback" with "early access == early frustration". Ultimately, keep in mind that for the 99.9999% of the Internet that hasn't used Evernote before, even our current beta feature set is a major improvement for them ... getting feedback from them is important, too:

http://machinist.salon.com/feature/2008/04/16/evernote/

http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2008/ ... ffers.html

http://danieljomphe.wordpress.com/2008/ ... a-version/

http://blogs.oreilly.com/digitalmedia/2 ... e-mac.html

... although I realize this is not personally reassuring for you if you're an Evernote 2.2 power-user who is waiting on something specific that we haven't implemented yet.

Thanks

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Hi

This is for Dengberg (or any member of the Team that may have a response to our concern).

As I am an old (not THAT old) system designer (as we were called in the 79-80's) and I have gone through the cycle from assembly-Basic-Pascal-Forth etc... up to relational databases then OOP/OOD, with lots of others in between, plus several tools which are "helpers", utilities in the design process and implementations etc, I can fully understand priorities and careful planning.

And this is where the forum of "The death of Evernote 2" is concerned and need desperately an answer.

The rush in releasing the Beta 3 is not understandable from any point of view.... because, apart from a Gui similarity with EN 2.2.1, it is another product. This is made clear by the clamour for the templates but mostly the clamour for the TAGGING-linking etc....(including searching with tags, the filters, etc.).

The change in the main EN page is not understandable.... where is EN 2.2.1????

The videos are not showing any of the strength of the serious product you have (had), namely EN 2.2.1

Phil's declarations (and participation in videos) are simply scaring for lovers of EN 2.2.1 (see the forum)

I understand that encryption is a concern...but not because people use it lots in their databases, mostly (I make a guess) because they are afraid of their notes beeing in the cloud but still want to have a web possibility....and security is a problem for EN3 to persuade new customers.

I won't comment on RAZR phones, symbian OS etc... it is trivial. But yes I will comment on the opening to the MAC world (which is quite a step and demanding in programming-design etc). Why opening Mac AT THE SAME TIME you are doing all the rest...

It is like, because of a board order (or a new CEO), the whole project had to be dropped (2.2.1), a new project (the webbbbb 3Beta AIR ANR) is seeing the light with the enormous rush to be the first in the market (the Mac idea, I am not sure....don't really get it as the Mac world is not that big but effectively lacks that kind of tools (although Leopard is quite something!!!)

From my point of view now of a EN 2.2.1 user, dedicated since 1995 to philosophy (Cognition, Language manly) I am writing my PHD...as most users in the forum "The death of..." and it was/is simply a beauty, although with some little glitches here and there. We were asking for an alarm possibility which is the best reason to understand that we are using EN ALL THE TIME, from opening our computer in the morning to the closing at night!!!! EN became part of our life/work...

Why the rush? If I had to invest 6 million dollars in a project, I'd be very carefull of NOT beeing too quick... and very carefull even to offer BETA's.... But my aim would be "put EN 2.2.1 on the WEB" because I KNOW it is THE best notetaking-clipping-gathering information and the one who MANIPULATES that information in the BEST WAY.... There is no software like it and believe me, I tried lots.

So I guess (again) that EN 2.2.1 had serious problems in design and/or programming....i take as example the note editor that belong (still?) to another company and was "plugged-in" (I know the company and will not name it).

So EN3 had to be rewritten from start (I guess....), and some difficulties appeared.... The saved searches are a joke compared to EN 2.2.1 search/tag included, automatic tagging, filters etc... rewrite also!!! Perhaps in other language best suited to the Web???

Is that a reason to make the rush you did? Or is it because you wish to impact the public with a show and magical EN-on-the-web-and-reading-inclusive-my-photos!!!!

And 6 million of dollars for a web based (mainly), all platform, AIR-ANR based......poor jotting system. (I insist on the poor jotting system) is a lot of money. It does not correspond to the figures I manage for this kind of software....and yes, I am retired because I made some very profitable software.

A rushy calculation:

300,000 EN3 buying EN3 at 19.95 is 5.985.000 (wow, if it is in one year, investment is nearly paid)

300,000 paying 5.00 a month for the Web based service and maintenance etc... is 18,000,000 a year (yummy even if they are only 100,000 customers)

Lets say the software is more expensive.... not much good there (but, hey, some software are selling at 50, 75, 250.....hmmmmm)

Lets say the maintenance is more expensive....very yummy

And 300,000 with, say, 1 Gig (and I am optimistic as your have a lower roof for the moment) is not that expensive after all, if you make good contracts with providers!!!

Now, lets dream about 2,000,000 customers..... Oh Lord!!!! But we must HURRY!!!! (here is my problem!!!!! And you know why it is my problem? I said it above: a poor jotting system)

Is this comparable to an effort to make EN 2.2.1 the WEB AIR-ANR version?....perhaps not. (because of factor TIME).

Dear Dengberg.... What are we expecting really? What are our chances to get EN 2.2.1 features in version 3? We need some directions!!! Just tell us that (not your time schedule, just a simple direction)

It is not because i could get mad at you (I could but it would be a loss of energy). It is because I NEED TO KNOW ASAP in order to migrate my databases because you and I KNOW that EN3 is not for me.

I need your honesty. And I know you will have a probable great success with BETA 3 even as a jotting, folder-based WEB all platforms system. I am happy for you

But please tell me what to do as I, as a power user, as a serious information gatherer, as a huge databases owner (I insist on the plural due to some limitations of EN 2.2.1), I need to do to SAVE MY WORK AND GO ON WITH MY LIFE....And I feel I represent all power users here.

Honesty and communication is all we need. We feel that the first is a bit "fuzzy" and the latter simply missing.

Can you reassure us? Are we going to be happy EN 3 users, will that happen some day? Please just say yes or no, and if yes...be realistic: 5 months? a year? Worth the wait?

Thank you

Tom

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I hear what you're saying on this. We spent a lot of time internally trying to figure out how to balance "early access == early feedback" with "early access == early frustration". Ultimately, keep in mind that for the 99.9999% of the Internet that hasn't used Evernote before, even our current beta feature set is a major improvement for them ... getting feedback from them is important, too:

http://machinist.salon.com/feature/2008/04/16/evernote/

http://blog.wired.com/monkeybites/2008/ ... ffers.html

http://danieljomphe.wordpress.com/2008/ ... a-version/

http://blogs.oreilly.com/digitalmedia/2 ... e-mac.html

... although I realize this is not personally reassuring for you if you're an Evernote 2.2 power-user who is waiting on something specific that we haven't implemented yet.

Thanks

Understood and I already thought of that when I heard Leo Laporte on the TWIT and Macbreak Weekly podcasts just rave about Evernote 3. The Mac user's, especially, will be a huge audience for you guys. 3.0 in it's current release will be very popular with many Mac users. Just remember to make it really pretty.

: )

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Dear Dengberg.... What are we expecting really? What are our chances to get EN 2.2.1 features in version 3? We need some directions!!! Just tell us that (not your time schedule, just a simple direction)

It is not because i could get mad at you (I could but it would be a loss of energy). It is because I NEED TO KNOW ASAP in order to migrate my databases because you and I KNOW that EN3 is not for me.

I need your honesty. And I know you will have a probable great success with BETA 3 even as a jotting, folder-based WEB all platforms system. I am happy for you

But please tell me what to do as I, as a power user, as a serious information gatherer, as a huge databases owner (I insist on the plural due to some limitations of EN 2.2.1), I need to do to SAVE MY WORK AND GO ON WITH MY LIFE....And I feel I represent all power users here.

Honesty and communication is all we need. We feel that the first is a bit "fuzzy" and the latter simply missing.

Can you reassure us? Are we going to be happy EN 3 users, will that happen some day? Please just say yes or no, and if yes...be realistic: 5 months? a year? Worth the wait?

I'm not completely sure whether these questions are rhetorical or not, but I think the answer is: If you are happy with 2.2, and you feel that there are significant things missing from the current beta, then you should definitely not migrate right now. Check back in a few months (if you want) to see whether the situation has changed and don't stress about it in the mean time.

Like Phil said, we're not pushing anyone to convert ... it will be a while until we have equivalent features in 3.0 from 2.2, and we don't have specific dates when everything will be finished. This isn't because we're being secretive ... we're just working through a pretty long list with a finite pool of engineers, who are also fixing bugs, etc. We put a fair amount of effort into making sure that the 3.0 and 2.2 could co-exist on the same machine specifically so that you wouldn't have to lose 2.2 in order to try 3.0.

You should definitely stick with 2.2 if that's doing the job for you. In particular, if none of the new aspects of 3.0 are of interest to you (web, Mac, cameraphones, etc.), then you may never want to switch. If 2.2.1 is exactly what you want, with nothing missing, then stick with it.

I routinely turn down upgrades for software (e.g. iTunes, etc.) that is working fine for me with no problems. I basically never upgrade my programming tools (e.g. Eclipse) unless needed for a critical new feature or I get a new machine. I'm using a 5-year-old version of MS Office because that's what I know, and I can't think of anything that the new versions of Office could possibly add to my word processing experience. Once I have something stable and comfortable that meets my needs, I tend to stick with it as long as possible.

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I routinely turn down upgrades for software (e.g. iTunes, etc.) that is working fine for me with no problems. I basically never upgrade my programming tools (e.g. Eclipse) unless needed for a critical new feature or I get a new machine. I'm using a 5-year-old version of MS Office because that's what I know, and I can't think of anything that the new versions of Office could possibly add to my word processing experience. Once I have something stable and comfortable that meets my needs, I tend to stick with it as long as possible.

So...you still on Windows 2000?

Sorry, I could not resist.

Seriously, though, the company I work for only last year upgraded us from Office 97 to Office 2003 and we officially moved off of Windows 2000 to XP LAST YEAR! We still have work being done with VB 6, Access 97, Access 2000 and Lotus Notes 6.5 (the current release is 8.0.something) Oh, theres a bit of bTrieve still being used...if anyone remembers that.

I totally understand where you are coming from.

Personally, I'm an upgrade freak. Four of my five computers at home run Vista, I run Visual Studio 2005 Pro and VS2008 Express and I have Office 2007, which I love. However, there's no overwhelming need to upgrade to Office 2007. Visual Studio, of course, is a must if you work with .net. Vista, a matter of personal preference. As a parent, it was worth it for the parental controls. Now I'm off topic so I'll shut up.

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So...you still on Windows 2000?

MS Bob Enterprise Server, actually. ;-)

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it will be a while until we have equivalent features in 3.0 from 2.2

This sounds like very good news.

I understand why the beta was launched - even if it is seen as very early. I don't mind if it takes a year or two years for the 2.2 features to be incorporated in 3.0. After all, it's not as if 2.2 has been taken away from me.

What I do need, though, is a list of those features that will (eventually) be incorporated into 3.0, and even more importantly a list of those that won't.

A lot of the comments have been triggered, I think, by a fear that features felt as important will never get into 3.0. A message to 'power users' saying "Here's 3. See what you think. Don't try switching everything to it yet, because it will take us a few months/years/decades to get all the 2.2 functionality into it but we will get it there eventually (and let you know ASAP if there's a feature we think we can't get over)" would have been very helpful. Still would be.

It's good to be able to continue with 2.2, but, however long they are supported, we all know that old versions are dead programs walking and so we need to look ahead at the next stage. I've looked at Vista and know I'm not going there. I'll wait for the Vista successor to see what I do with most of our machines, but I'm attending to the future by making sure that Linux is installed on all of them now (as well as XP Pro) to give people a chance to get used to it.

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What I do need, though, is a list of those features that will (eventually) be incorporated into 3.0, and even more importantly a list of those that won't.

We don't have a secret list of 2.2 features that we will never implement in any way ... our intent is to support all of the same operations in 3.0 eventually. The way each requirement is met may change from 2.2 to 3.0 in the same way that the toolbars in MS Office 2007 look different than Office 2003. We haven't figured out exactly how to do each feature correctly yet, and there's no way I can promise that you'll prefer the 3.0 implementation (in the same way that MS can't promise you'll like their new Office toolbars better than their old).

Random example feature: templates.

2.2 templates are non-portable, non-standard Windows executables. This mechanism will never work on the web, or the Mac, etc. The original requirement is important to us, however: a way to create notes in a standard format without recreating that layout from scratch every time you make a new note. We intend to implement this requirement, but want to make sure we do it right so that your notes will look correct when you sync them to the web and the Mac, etc. So, questions & answers for this sample feature:

Are templates implemented in the current beta release? No.

Do we intend to implement note templates? Yes.

Will they be 100% identical to 2.2 note templates? I don't think so.

How will they be implemented? I don't completely know yet ... we need to do more research, usability design, and prototyping to know exactly how to offer this feature in a standard, portable way.

When will it be implemented in 3.0? I don't know yet ... we don't know exactly how it will be implemented, and we're working through a very long list of things to do, so it would be foolish for me to pick a date for this.

Templates are critical to me, should I start using the EN3 beta today instead of EN2.2? No.

(These answers are basically the same for every other unimplemented 2.2 feature.)

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I think you're doing a great job of building trust and establishing some real communication.

Thanks for taking the time to address our fears and worries. Feels really good.

Having used EN3 more and more I've already grown more confident that, 2.2 features or not, I can slice and dice the information pretty accurately. My trust in the app has gone up over the last couple of days. Your posts since yesterday have raised my level of confidence in the app additionally but especially raise my confidence, trust and level of "feel good" in EN the company :)

Great job, classic example of good public relations. Thanks!

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As others have said here, I think pretty much all the angst and FUD about whether or not all the 2.2 features will ever find their way into 3.0+ arise from three issues:

1) The fact that the 3.0b was released so very early. It's actually far more like an alpha that's been made (relatively) polished and stable. We could endlessly debate the pros and cons of whether or not such an early public preview was a good idea, though my personal belief is that in the long term it will prove to be a very good thing. The EN development team is getting all kinds of useful feedback - maybe even too much, but if it's properly filtered and prioritized we'll all win.

2) 3.0+ is clearly a new architecture, 'built from the ground up'. Any long-lived product eventually faces this massive hurdle, but when you want to go to multiple platforms, etc it's something that had to be done right away. That also means that some features need to be implemented differently, and will inevitably feel painful to experienced users. It's all too easy to forget that every feature-rich product has its clumsiness, including v2.2. We just get so used to doing things a certain way that the pain goes away. :)

3) The EN staff's (real or apparent) lack of response to the power users' concerns. I'm much more of a lurker than a poster, and it's been interesting to watch the tone of the prolific posters change over the last couple of months. It's gone from optimism and true appreciation that the product is in early beta, to a range of disappointment, disillusionment, anger, resignation, etc. Many of you seem to have forgotten that this is still an early beta. Dave Engberg has addressed some of the concerns lately in this thread, but it's really not anything different from what has been said all along. And that's OK!

What's my point? Well, to the doom-and-gloomers out there: have patience. You haven't lost anything. When you do finally switch to version 3+ you'll only have gained. It may be that the specific set of power-user features that you're looking for may only be available in v3.2, or 3.5, but they will come.

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This whole "Evernote is full of new venture capital and just wants money and is going to make Evernote into a program to collect pictures of wine bottles with your iphone!" thing reminds me of one of the reasons why the company I work for doesn't have a customer support forum, and instead just answers questions via email. Nothing stops users from going "OMFG SKY IS FALLING!' when in reality, the sky isn't falling... but if they have a forum to shout on, they'll start up a whole movement about something that's not even true.

I suppose the 'proof is in the pudding', in this case.

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This whole "Evernote is full of new venture capital and just wants money and is going to make Evernote into a program to collect pictures of wine bottles with your iphone!" thing reminds me of one of the reasons why the company I work for doesn't have a customer support forum, and instead just answers questions via email. Nothing stops users from going "OMFG SKY IS FALLING!' when in reality, the sky isn't falling... but if they have a forum to shout on, they'll start up a whole movement about something that's not even true.

Most experts in the topic say that forums require heavy moderation to keep up a constructive discussion with a high signal-to-noise ratio. Unpruned forums tend to dissolve into a handful of people yelling the same things at each other.

E.g. from Edward Tufte (uber-guru of information design & communication):

http://www.edwardtufte.com/bboard/q-and ... _id=0000fT

If we were starting from scratch and had someone with time for aggressive moderation, I'd definitely go in this direction here, but it's next to impossible to "fix" this problem after the fact without being accused of Stalinist censorship, etc.

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whiteks says:

Nothing stops users from going "OMFG SKY IS FALLING!' when in reality, the sky isn't falling... but if they have a forum to shout on, they'll start up a whole movement about something that's not even true.

This is too sad to comment, specially when every power user (to say something) has been first a Beta tester (as myself for version 2.1) and have had a long and real profitable relationship (profitable to EN cause they have corrected quite a few bugs, and profitable for users because we have 2.2.1).

But there is a yelling (i admit it) when a NEW version (even in Beta) compares to the old version as a person in a black-tie suit compares to a nude-with-socks person.... it is called "shock". And this is just because we cannot even think of using our valuable data into the new one.... no way...not working.

I have called for optimism in the forum "The death of ..." and have showed some level of anguish due to silence...coming from the EN Team, and that is why I started posting here and am very grateful to Dengberg for his answers....

And there might be some "ouches" if you compare the web version (mozilla) tags, versus the Windows XP version tags.... No hierarchy as in 2.2.1 and not working even alike (I am sending the report on both after this post cause its really messy and they don't even LOOK alike (one is indented, the other is not) But I am betatesting version 3 and still cooperating with the staff and with EN.

And don't like the answer of Denberg stating that if you like a program just stick with it and forget about upgrades.... Because it is misleading and not logically correct. If you have a OS you like, no faults, no errors, no failings... ok, it could be understandable. And the best (worse) example is XP or VISTA.... (where you don't really get a choice unless you are aware of computer matters and you buy the best machine with XP SP2 installed just before the first shipment of the machines with Vista...).

I have some software I haven't upgraded because some other software of my interest and use require that version and have been discontinued....it is my decision to keep up with that version and I have no choice to upgrade as it is discontinued!!!

But normally, if the SAME program is getting on a new version, you tend to think it will be for better.... Word 95 cannot be compared to word 98 or Word XP.... (no Word 2007 for me, cause no Vista nor necesity). In Excel, they have been lots of improvements for people number crunching!!!

Look at the Leopard compared to the Tiger in MAC!!!! Stunning!!!!

In the case of EN, the upgrade is huge in terms of Web stuf and AIR ANR plus connectivity....RIGHT........But they don't even have tags working as tags anymore, and the templates, and the power of the searching and...and....!!! WRONG (very). And with such a change, the feeling of beeing forgotten by EN is truly understandable...stick with 2.2.1 and Basta!!! (yucky answer, just not right...but perhaps still hope in a year...)

I took my decision and am working all day long with EN 2.2.1 cause it is my main program for the moment (and I am aware of its limitations, as we were asking some corrections and making some wishes for new implementations to get more powerful and trusty... Will there be some corrections to the still remaining little flaws of 2.2.1? I guess not as it is not even to be found in a web page!!! EN is now Beta 3!!!!

And I keep my comittment to Beta testing version 3 because IF it comes near 2.2.1 (in a year or so), I will be the first in using it!!!!! And perhaps also because I appreciated my long relationship with the EN team during the betatesting of 2.1 to 2.2.1 and I appreciate their program so much... (it is my time and I wish to spend it in something that "can/could" be the "Wow" of 2.2.1)

But it is also true that I am beginning a new quest to find a stable and trustable new piece of software....not so AIR ANR WEB PHONE but database for interrelated notes and gatherings...that is what puts bread on my table, and that is why I am so grateful to 2.2.1 and so disappointed with Beta 3 (for now) as it is simply of no use to me....

Cloudy weather...happy with EN 2.2.1, testing Beta 3 with no real hope but who knows, and beginning to seek new horizons.....

Best regards

Tom

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When people are yelling about the lack of features, they should remember one thing: This is an invitation-only BETA test.

In my opinion, that means it is not done yet. EN has a stable very usable product - EN2.2.1

If you want the stable full feature set, use that. If you like to be bleeding-edge (Like Me) then you can use a beta version.

I have beta tested software in the past, so I have not only lost the information I was using the test software to process, but had them tear up my hard drive. That is the risk we took in using test software.

My only problem with EN was that lack of communication. They are being upfront and honest with us now.

We all need to take a breath, and let them do their jobs.

-Gary

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Yep invitation only???

So where is the page of evernote 2.2.1? It is not mentionned anywhere....it is like it is ....gone?

Tom

still betatesting

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It is almost at the bottom of the home page.

It is also in the download section.

I agree that the current stable version should be more obvious.

-Gary

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I would just like to give a round of applause here for dengberg; he's been doing an admirable job of hand-holding, especially for us whiny power users.

And to set the record straight - I'm okay that it's an "early" beta. I'm okay with the fact that features are missing. What was getting me hot under the collar was the fact that some key feature requests were not being acknowledged. For example, the whole 32 saved searches thing. Now that I know that yes, they want to make more than 32 saved searches but they're figuring it out how, that's okay.

Some might say that I should just assume that no response means that they're thinking about it. But let's be honest, there are some obscure feature requests that come up that are probably not being considered (like I want EverNote to be a fully capable image editor too, or some such). It's just nice to know where the feature stands in the minds of the EN team. At the beginning of the beta, Phil maid mention of putting up a roadmap. Unfortunately, that's never occurred. And, I can see why, because I can just imaging the response on the forum: "What my feature request is listed as Priority Z and you're going to turn EN into a graphical editor first?"

Another part of the frustration stems from realizing that my usage of EN does not fit into the new target demographic. I feel like a neanderthal sometimes; not interested in most of the features that are currently being tested. Sigh.

But, I definitely appreciate the time and effort that dengberg's been putting in here recently. It goes a long way.

(Perhaps with the 6 million dollars of venture capital, you could afford to hire a PR person for the forum :))

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Well said, Crane.

I appaude DEngberg also.

I realize you have to be careful, cause one slip of the tongue, and we are all over you! 8)

I hope things can settle down, so you can get to the important thing ... Coding!

Keep up the good fight!

-Gary

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I appreciate and am impressed with Dave's efforts as well. Being in sales and customer service myself, I respectfully suggest that more communication is always better than less. Especially if you're called on to correct a misunderstanding; at least you know it's a misunderstanding related to something you did or said, and not something imaginary the customer made up. Real problems are so much easier to fix than imaginary ones.

Dave - I don't know how you feel about "having" to spend so much time on the forums lately, but believe me, it's worth it. Even the caveats are informative and helpful.

-Dave

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Another part of the frustration stems from realizing that my usage of EN does not fit into the new target demographic. I feel like a neanderthal sometimes; not interested in most of the features that are currently being tested. Sigh.

Crane, you just described my feelings to a T. I am NOT a power user by no means, but I have been using EN for years. I am 'almost' one of those folks the new Beta is targeted at. I am not particularly organized, and I suffer from CRS (Can't remember squat), so I use EN as my 'external brain'. I keep all the things I need to remember organized in EN. It is quite simple and it's what I'm use to. That is the beauty of EN, it's as simple or as complex as you want it to be.

I am a stay at home mom, and I have no need to access my notes from anywhere other than home. I have downloaded the Beta and tried it out. It is awesome. I can see a market for it, and I think it will do well. It is just not for me. It feels like a whole new product, and I don't need a whole new product. I don't do MySpace, FaceBook or any other 'put my stuff up on the web' sites, and I don't want to do that with EN either. I guess this makes me a neanderthal as well! LOL

My wish is that the Evernote team keeps 2.2 alive and well for those who use it and enjoy it. Even if they don't, EN 2.2 is pretty near perfect for me, so as long as I'm able to download it (if need be) and use it on my computer, I will be happy.

I also appreciate dengberg's effort to answer our concerns as best as he can!

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For the moment, just suggesting a workaround, we can use a regular or saved search once a week or so and assign all the notes found the category/tag we would normally have had automagically assigned to it.

By the way... the notebooks create a whole new, clear level of organization for me: I *love* it.

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Thank you to Dave Engberg for coming on here and actually speaking to some power user concerns.

It has stopped (for now) my search for a replacement product and let me take a "let's see the next few Beta releases" approach -- because for me (as for many) it was the lack of any response from EN about the feature concerns that had me most concerned, not that something wasn't implemented yet. I know it's an early Beta, and as an engineer myself I understand that features (especially across multiple platforms) take time to (re)implement. However, Betas are released specifically to get feedback, and testers / users also want feedback on their feedback. I understand Dave's concern about not having words misused against EN by promising something that is harder to deliver than they initially thought. I'm glad to hear from him, and it would be even more helpful to know if EN is combing the forums (espeically the 2.2 features going away thread) for these requests and logging them as open suggs in whatever bug/sug tracking system they use for their engineering team -- even if (understandably) EN won't commit to when they'll implement feature X or Y with regards to pushing it into the Beta.

So, thanks Dave. Hopefully you (and your peers) will continue to keep us posted of what's going on.

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We'll definitely keep you all in the loop as much as possible as soon as we figure out the right answers.

Even better would be to include us (the "Gurus" or power users) on FIGURING OUT what the right answers are... We're a bunch that is willing to help, if not a little cranky. ;-)

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You should definitely stick with 2.2 if that's doing the job for you. In particular, if none of the new aspects of 3.0 are of interest to you (web, Mac, cameraphones, etc.), then you may never want to switch. If 2.2.1 is exactly what you want, with nothing missing, then stick with it.

Will there be additional updates/fixes to the 2.2 series?

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our intent is to support all of the same operations in 3.0 eventually.

This line and the rest of Dengberg's message was incredibly encouraging to me (emphasis above is mine).

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As others have said here, I think pretty much all the angst and FUD about whether or not all the 2.2 features will ever find their way into 3.0+ arise from three issues:

1) The fact that the 3.0b was released so very early. It's actually far more like an alpha that's been made (relatively) polished and stable. We could endlessly debate the pros and cons of whether or not such an early public preview was a good idea, though my personal belief is that in the long term it will prove to be a very good thing. The EN development team is getting all kinds of useful feedback - maybe even too much, but if it's properly filtered and prioritized we'll all win.

2) 3.0+ is clearly a new architecture, 'built from the ground up'. Any long-lived product eventually faces this massive hurdle, but when you want to go to multiple platforms, etc it's something that had to be done right away. That also means that some features need to be implemented differently, and will inevitably feel painful to experienced users. It's all too easy to forget that every feature-rich product has its clumsiness, including v2.2. We just get so used to doing things a certain way that the pain goes away. :)

3) The EN staff's (real or apparent) lack of response to the power users' concerns. I'm much more of a lurker than a poster, and it's been interesting to watch the tone of the prolific posters change over the last couple of months. It's gone from optimism and true appreciation that the product is in early beta, to a range of disappointment, disillusionment, anger, resignation, etc. Many of you seem to have forgotten that this is still an early beta. Dave Engberg has addressed some of the concerns lately in this thread, but it's really not anything different from what has been said all along. And that's OK!

What's my point? Well, to the doom-and-gloomers out there: have patience. You haven't lost anything. When you do finally switch to version 3+ you'll only have gained. It may be that the specific set of power-user features that you're looking for may only be available in v3.2, or 3.5, but they will come.

I don't know that I would qualify as a 'power' user, but some of my posts may qualify as 'doom and gloom'. That said, there is a reason for that: lack of response IN THE THREAD I WAS FOLLOWING. Mr. Engberg has finally posted over there. I appreciate his involvement in this thread and he has, to some degree, placated some of my concerns. However, I will reserve judgement until the 'gold' release of 3.0 is out. I will definitely remain skeptical and am still concerned, especially when I see him make comments like 'templates are an executable' WHAT? How the heck are they execuatbles? Ok, they get interpreted by EverNote, but I would hardly call a mashup of HTML and XML a Windows only thing. By that, I hope he means Windows only in the 2.2 client. At any rate, I still don't care much for the web stuff and wished they had concentrated more on the things that MADE EverNote such great and useful tool.

I will try to keep things in perspective in regard to the beta and will continue to test the product. I'm hoping that I can find something useful with it and the way I work.

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We don't have a secret list of 2.2 features that we will never implement in any way ... our intent is to support all of the same operations in 3.0 eventually. The way each requirement is met may change from 2.2 to 3.0 in the same way that the toolbars in MS Office 2007 look different than Office 2003. We haven't figured out exactly how to do each feature correctly yet, and there's no way I can promise that you'll prefer the 3.0 implementation (in the same way that MS can't promise you'll like their new Office toolbars better than their old).

Random example feature: templates.

2.2 templates are non-portable, non-standard Windows executables. This mechanism will never work on the web, or the Mac, etc. The original requirement is important to us, however: a way to create notes in a standard format without recreating that layout from scratch every time you make a new note. We intend to implement this requirement, but want to make sure we do it right so that your notes will look correct when you sync them to the web and the Mac, etc. So, questions & answers for this sample feature:

Are templates implemented in the current beta release? No.

Do we intend to implement note templates? Yes.

Will they be 100% identical to 2.2 note templates? I don't think so.

How will they be implemented? I don't completely know yet ... we need to do more research, usability design, and prototyping to know exactly how to offer this feature in a standard, portable way.

When will it be implemented in 3.0? I don't know yet ... we don't know exactly how it will be implemented, and we're working through a very long list of things to do, so it would be foolish for me to pick a date for this.

Templates are critical to me, should I start using the EN3 beta today instead of EN2.2? No.

(These answers are basically the same for every other unimplemented 2.2 feature.)

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This is very good news, something many of us have been waiting to hear for months. I'm wondering why this hasn't already been said. I'd like to see this verified by Phil himself. No offense intended to you, Dave, I'd just like to hear the man with the vision reiterate that his vision includes bringing back all the features so many of us depend on, just to be sure we're all on the same page. Can Phil post his take on this subject?

I was just paraphrasing what Phil said in his stickied post. I don't really think that there was anything I said (other than a lot of technical details about templates) that differs from what he posted at the beginning of the beta.

Polite request: can we stop adding more posts to the threads with the most negative titles? ;-)

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Polite request: can we stop adding more posts to the threads with the most negative titles? ;-)

If we can continue having this productive dialog, we can change titles to "Sunshine, Bunnies, and Flowers" for all I care! ;-)

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Polite request: can we stop adding more posts to the threads with the most negative titles? ;-)

If we can continue having this productive dialog, we can change titles to "Sunshine, Bunnies, and Flowers" for all I care! ;-)

LOL! +1 here.

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Dear Dengberg,

Why exactly do you think most posts are in the negative threads?

To be honest, I haven't found positive threads either!!

By the way,could you ask the guys who receive the betatesting foundings to answer, that could be helpful...

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Thomas -

I was trying to be funny. (That's what the smilie was for.)

We don't have the resources to respond to every feedback submission, but we do read them, thanks. In two months, we will have a new support system that will send an acknowledgment email every time you submit a feedback/bug.

Thanks.

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Dear Dengberg,

Sorry if I didn't catch the smiley!!!

I just sent quite a long testing of both Mozilla version and Windows version with lots of problems about the Tags.... they don't seem to work as they should, don't seem to be parent/child designed (or not working), not working correctly with the new search syntax, not working the same (Mozilla versus Windows)...I guess one or two points I am signaling are quite urgent, hope it will help!!!

Regards

Tom

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Great, thanks. We've spent a fair amount of time recently reviewing feedback that comes in from the feedback form, so keep it coming!

Thakns

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We don't have the resources to respond to every feedback submission, but we do read them, thanks. In two months, we will have a new support system that will send an acknowledgment email every time you submit a feedback/bug.

An acknowledgement e-mail for every feedback submitted via web form and/or e-mail would be very welcome.

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An acknowledgement e-mail for every feedback submitted via web form and/or e-mail would be very welcome.

This is in the works. We have purchased a commercial support/tracking system and are working to get it all set up and behaving correctly, with acknowledgment emails, workflow, forwarding, etc. Right now, this is a manual process with one person moving emails around (and deleting hundreds of spam emails per day).

Thanks

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This is very good news, something many of us have been waiting to hear for months. I'm wondering why this hasn't already been said. I'd like to see this verified by Phil himself. No offense intended to you, Dave, I'd just like to hear the man with the vision reiterate that his vision includes bringing back all the features so many of us depend on, just to be sure we're all on the same page. Can Phil post his take on this subject?

I was just paraphrasing what Phil said in his stickied post. I don't really think that there was anything I said (other than a lot of technical details about templates) that differs from what he posted at the beginning of the beta.

Thanks for your reply, Dave. Your previous reply mentioned only templates specifically, other features only by inference. And now you're telling us that Phil won't take the time to post a brief confirmation saying that he intends to restore to EN, at some indeterminate date, the features we've been requesting from 2.2, includuing:

Note links

Out of Tape notes

Templates

Auto-assigned categories/tags

Flags

Icons

Manual sorting of categories/tags

Peer to peer synchronization

Union of categories

Category Filters

Polite request: can we stop adding more posts to the threads with the most negative titles? ;-)

I, and I imagine others, would be happy to stop posting to the threads with the most negative titles with this simple assurance, item by item. Seems like not a too much to ask from long-time loyal users. Is it?

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Good questions & requests, Salgud. They are deserving of a point-by-point reply. Let's hope Phil jumps in and provides it!

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They are deserving of a point-by-point reply. Let's hope Phil jumps in and provides it!

In order to keep this from turning into another 6-page "why haven't they replied yet?" thread, I'm going to have to point you back to my earlier posts in this thread. I tried to be as clear as possible about the state of the beta and our reasons why we can't give a detailed analysis and schedule for every feature of interest right now. Again, this isn't because we don't want to give you precise answers, but rather because we don't necessarily have precise answers to give on every topic right now. (I could quote salgud's email and paste this after every item in his list, but I haven't had my coffee yet.)

We are reading your suggestions and requests (I just got done filing a bug from another post), and that's all going into our planning process. We do appreciate the feedback.

Thanks

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I have to say that I am happy to accept Dave Engberg's statement that it is the intention to put all the 2.2 functionality into 3 with the caveat that there may have to be some workarounds when they get into the detail. If they knew how everything needed to be done, they would already have done it so I accept a measure of uncertainty and that the statement was made with knowledge and in good faith.

I do understand where salgud is coming from in his desire to see Phil say the same. He is obviously very important and has not shown in public an understanding of the value of the 2.2 functionality that is missing from 3. And the long delay before Dave explained the situation. BUT I don't believe that it will be possible to get anywhere with such a level of distrust. Whatever Phil (or Dave) says, there will always be something unsaid. Dave has been very clear. I am happy to believe him and take things forward in a positive way.

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They are deserving of a point-by-point reply. Let's hope Phil jumps in and provides it!

In order to keep this from turning into another 6-page "why haven't they replied yet?" thread, I'm going to have to point you back to my earlier posts in this thread. I tried to be as clear as possible about the state of the beta and our reasons why we can't give a detailed analysis and schedule for every feature of interest right now. Again, this isn't because we don't want to give you precise answers, but rather because we don't necessarily have precise answers to give on every topic right now. (I could quote salgud's email and paste this after every item in his list, but I haven't had my coffee yet.)

We are reading your suggestions and requests (I just got done filing a bug from another post), and that's all going into our planning process. We do appreciate the feedback.

Thanks

Thanks, Dave, for making Phil's position abundantly clear.

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I have to say that I am happy to accept Dave Engberg's statement that it is the intention to put all the 2.2 functionality into 3 with the caveat that there may have to be some workarounds when they get into the detail. If they knew how everything needed to be done, they would already have done it so I accept a measure of uncertainty and that the statement was made with knowledge and in good faith.

I do understand where salgud is coming from in his desire to see Phil say the same. He is obviously very important and has not shown in public an understanding of the value of the 2.2 functionality that is missing from 3. And the long delay before Dave explained the situation. BUT I don't believe that it will be possible to get anywhere with such a level of distrust. Whatever Phil (or Dave) says, there will always be something unsaid. Dave has been very clear. I am happy to believe him and take things forward in a positive way.

I'm very happy for you, DORMOUSE. BTW, how did you happen to choose that particular screename?

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DORMOUSE. BTW, how did you happen to choose that particular screename?

A mostly nocturnal creature who loves sleep and inactivity. 8)

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I am SO relieved to read dengberg's posts on this thread! I, too, have been among the disillusioned 2.2 lovers, and while I'm quite patient and wanted to believe Phil's original post that all the core functionality would make its way into version 3, the long delay in receiving reassurance was finally convincing me that the pessimists were right. The problem is that version 3 is so lame compared to version 2.x, and nobody was saying "We know, just give us the time to get things working." So, thank you, dengberg, I am very much heartened. I may even update my beta copy and see if it's become useful yet.

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