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JamesBlake

Missing options for home users

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I've been using Evernote back in 2014 till they limited number of devices. I don't need much from it in terms of space or features - free plan is totally ok for me. But I do have many devices - I have work laptop, home laptop, gaming PC, phones and tablet. I need my notes to be available everywhere. And I'm not ready for 8$/mo just to be able to use all my devices, given there's so many free alternatives out there. So I've been using some well known kanban style boards app ever since. Yes it's not kind of the same - but it was even better for my use cases as at most I was needed something to plan my daily routine and somewhat collaborate with my family on some of the items (short notes, no formatting, kanban style is a huge advantage). Recently I got a new use case where I need to be working with a huge text in a single note with formatting and that other app is just not a right tool for it.. so I'm here to give Evernote a second chance. And from what I see - they've made it even worse and cut even the Plus plan... literally leaving non-enterprise users with no options. Unlikely right people from Evernote ever gonna see my message, but the hope dies last (or at least I've tried):

Yes - it's not only the enterprise users can have more than two devices!

The pricing is totally appropriate for some sort of small business - but c'mon who is that your target audience from home users category that is ready to pay 8$/mo for the notes app? You want my money - fine, totally get that, but there's really a huge gap between the free version and 8$/mo. My take out for you in all this would be:

Option 1 - Desktop/Laptop + tablet + phone is a pretty average setup these days, I get that in my case I'm really having way too many devices for an average user, so forget it, but jump from 2 to 3 devices for a free plan would do the trick

Option 2 - Do something about how you count devices. Stop counting Desktop app as a device, or count only simultaneously active (not just logged in but actually using device), or count mobile and desktop separately. I mean literally the only advantage for me of having Evernote as a separate desktop app - the ability to Cmd+Tab into it and not looking among thouthands of my open tabs... a cool feature but again not for 8$/mo. 2 mobile devices limit for a free plan would sound reasonable, or 2+2, or whatever.

Option 3 - As I said, money rules everything - I get that. For something like 2-3-4$/mo I would go for it. To me it even sound more reasonable to allow web only for free and something like 5 devices limit for a 2-3-4$/mo.

Well as for now.. I enjoyed using Evernote that couple of years back, but sorry, right now I just can't. Your free plan missing a crucial feature I need (multi-device), and your minimal paid plan comes with way too many features that I as a home user don't need yet the price (as to the home user) - to high to pay for that one feature I really need. So... see you later... maybe...

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A few thoughts, which may or may not be helpful:

  • From my perspective, I don't think that "home" and "enterprise" are the only two categories of Evernote users. I'm not an enterprise, just me, but for my research and writing needs Evernote Premium is easily worth the $8/month; the ability to keep track of some household stuff is kind of a bonus.
  • Perhaps you could reflect on other expenses that run about $8/month. Are they worth more to you than what you want to do with Evernote?
  • If you switch to Evernote Premium, you might find that some of its features that seem unnecessary to you now could turn out to be unexpectedly useful. It might be worth subscribing to Premium for just 1 or 2 months to see whether it is worth the money.

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19 hours ago, JamesBlake said:

I need (multi-device)

You have it.  It's just that only two devices plus the web can be active at a time.  Pain point is logging out of one to log into another.

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1 hour ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

A few thoughts, which may or may not be helpful:

  • From my perspective, I don't think that "home" and "enterprise" are the only two categories of Evernote users. I'm not an enterprise, just me, but for my research and writing needs Evernote Premium is easily worth the $8/month; the ability to keep track of some household stuff is kind of a bonus.
  • Perhaps you could reflect on other expenses that run about $8/month. Are they worth more to you than what you want to do with Evernote?
  • If you switch to Evernote Premium, you might find that some of its features that seem unnecessary to you now could turn out to be unexpectedly useful. It might be worth subscribing to Premium for just 1 or 2 months to see whether it is worth the money.
  • Yes I've made a typo, obviously I meant not enterprise but small business or self employed... for this category indeed 8$/mo should not be a problem, like I said, but yet I am talking solely on home non-profit type of users. A grocery list, a vacation plan, a weekend todo and similar doesn't sounds like it has to be 8$/mo
  • That is exactly what I did. I am software engineer and more than half of my entire life is digital. Some of it like my development IDE is close to 50$/mo. But, I mean look around - the entire Google G Suite (that includes mail, drive, calendar, text, sheets and so much more) is 5$/mo, not to mention that it's actually free for home users. Slack is the same 8$/mo per user - but it's a whole lot including notes. Microsoft has entire 365 office for $10/mo, that has OneNote included (I'm religiously Linux guy otherwise that what I'd go for). Jira/Confluence which obviously much more rich in terms of features is 10$/mo. I'm making budgeting decisions for enterprises, that what I do for a living and I think I've got pretty realistic idea on what 8$/mo should be looking like in terms of value. I mean who am I to judge, it's their app they can do whatever they want, I don't see their stats I could be wrong - I just tell what I feel. And I don't feel like I want to spend 8$/mo on this, so instead they get 0$ from me.
  • I read the list, none from it except for the number of devices not even remotely sounds like can be applicable to my home user scenarios.. which makes sense as it designed for business... I don't even use PDF for anything non-work, why do I need to search in something I don't have.. I don't making presentations to my wife definitely not in one click... mails? Anyone still using that at home except for password reset or something? Business cards.. oh c'mon whom do I show it - my neighbors? Again I just want a grocery list to share with my wife and make some of the items in bold or colors :) And I want to create this list either on my laptop in my office or tablet in my living room and then track it on the go from the phone. That other kanban app I mentioned does that perfectly and does it for free... the new use case I got is I writing a script for some family celebration event and for some reason that other app has performance issues scrolling long text... which is obviously why I don't want to put that much text to the cards on the board...

 

4 minutes ago, CalS said:

You have it.  It's just that only two devices plus the web can be active at a time.  Pain point is logging out of one to log into another.

First - it's not convenient. Why would I do something that frustrates me, I'd just go for a different product instead. Can imagine me in the middle of a grocery store trying to re-login to Evernote with my randomly generated passwords since I'm a geek and I use LastPass (another good example BTW they want just 2$/mo but it's much much more value, that's the thing I simply can't imagine my life without).

Second - if that's really allowed and you're not violating user agreement doing that, which I don't really up to verify atm, then why to put that stupid limit in the first place? It's either not allowed or the check shouldn't be there. It can't be allowed loophole.

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20 hours ago, JamesBlake said:

And I'm not ready for 8$/mo just to be able to use all my devices, given there's so many free alternatives out there.

Can you let us know about the free alternatives.
Evernote's editor app is free, but only ok for basic notes.  I've been unable to find a suitable alternative for the file processing that stores my data and synchronizes to the web and my devices.

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1 minute ago, JamesBlake said:

First - it's not convenient. Why would I do something that frustrates me, I'd just go for a different product instead. Can imagine me in the middle of a grocery store trying to re-login to Evernote with my randomly generated passwords since I'm a geek and I use LastPass (another good example BTW they want just 2$/mo but it's much much more value, that's the thing I simply can't imagine my life without).

Second - if that's really allowed and you're not violating user agreement doing that, which I don't really up to verify atm, then why to put that stupid limit in the first place? It's either not allowed or the check shouldn't be there. It can't be allowed loophole.

Hey now, I was just saying the option exists, not the efficacy in your situation.  Sounds like you've made the right decision for you.

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14 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Can you let us know about the free alternatives.
Evernote's editor app is free, and ok for basic notes.  However I've been unable to find an alternative for the file processing that stores my data and synchronizes to the web and my devices.

Well that's what I'm talking about. Scenarios are different... I don't even upload files, I've been with Dropbox and now using Google Drive for files.. I have hundreds of gigs and that's not for Evernote app to store it... I'm not sure what you mean by processing files - indexing for search?

Like I said I don't need these features, I just need text notes and 8$/mo is too much for it, when Trello does it for me for free for unlimited number of devices.. and then there Google Keep and OneNone out there too..

 

In fact I just realized Evernote does the good old real sync between the devices... maybe to someone this is a desperately needed feature but for me LTE is available wherever I go, so I just need a cloud notes really...

Maybe I'm trying to use a wrong tool for a task or I suggesting a good addition to their business model.. who knows...

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28 minutes ago, JamesBlake said:

I'm not sure what you mean by processing files - indexing for search?

Starting with the note itself; a container for a collection of files including the notes text contents.
Synchronized to the web and all my devices.
Organized with notebooks/tags
Yes, indexed for search

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I posted this before thus sorry for repeating myself. But pricing and cost of something is all about justification to one's self and the value you get out of it.

$8 a month may be expensive or cheap depending on how you look at it and how much value you get out of it. Stating "there are free apps" out there does not really prove anything. What value they provide to you is the question? Is it the same?

The way I look at it is my Evernote subscription costs me $0.013 per note! A little over a cent!!! Therefore, it is so worth it because I use it daily and saves me so much time on locating information and documents. 

If I was taking one note a year, it would not provide the value for the investment of course. So if you are using it in a great amount and you want to use it on multiple devices, it will pay for itself by the value it provides you.

Finally, there is nothing free in life...you pay for it somehow...whether with your time, with your privacy....or with limited options.

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1 hour ago, TK0047 said:

$8 a month may be expensive or cheap depending on how you look at it

Well, my coffee bill (another productivity enhancer) is well over $10 per week(!), so by comparison, Evernote is a bargain!!

Obviously other folks' situations differ. We all make our choices. I think it's a bit of a shame that the Plus option has gone away; that was a cheaper option. In the end, if Evernote provides sufficient value and utility to you, you should pay for it; if it doesn't, but you still want to use it, then you need to suffer the inconvenience if you want to use it on more than two devices at a time.

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5 minutes ago, jefito said:

Well, my coffee bill (another productivity enhancer) is well over $10 per week(!), so by comparison, Evernote is a bargain!!

Obviously other folks' situations differ. We all make our choices. I think it's a bit of a shame that the Plus option has gone away; that was a cheaper option. In the end, if Evernote provides sufficient value and utility to you, you should pay for it; if it doesn't, but you still want to use it, then you need to suffer the inconvenience if you want to use it on more than two devices at a time.

Back in the day, when software cost thousands of dollars (of course some still do), I think these are really affordable numbers (again compared to the value). Especially, the subscription method made it affordable for a lot of people to purchase decent apps and software.

We all want everything and not pay for it. You put it nicely "you need to suffer the inconvenience" if you don't want to pay for it. 

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Well that's not how I see it. I'm not arguing there are users who can justify 8$/mo, of course there are a whole lot of them. In fact if I only found how to use it for my work - I would go for it myself. But I already have other enterprise tools... And I'm not saying 8$/mo is just too expensive or unaffordable, that's not true. What I'm saying is I don't think I'm alone with my use cases. We all just guessing here as we don't seeing their revenue and user stats, but if my assumption is right - there is a whole lot of people, entirely separate category and a piece of pie in terms of the market share, that can pay 3$/mo but paying 0$ right now and just use different product or use free plan and struggling with unreasonable limitations. It's an open market. It's all about feature set (value) vs cost - if they smart enough they can attract that user category and get extra $. I'm not going to pay 8$/mo just because there are those who do. It needs to bring me a value for 8$/mo and it doesn't happening. Right now I'm just back to Trello, I figured if I do every scene on my board as separate card it plays even better than just a note as I can drag it and track status... for free... so bye Evernote.

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12 minutes ago, JamesBlake said:

It's all about feature set (value) vs cost - if they smart enough they can attract that user category and get extra $.

No idea how smart EN may or may not be, but they seem to have decided on their marketing strategy re tiers and what limitations are applied to each.  From your comments you don't seem to be within that sphere and have opted for Trello.  The beauty of the open market, enjoy.  

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17 minutes ago, JamesBlake said:

if they smart enough they can attract that user category and get extra $

I can see the point of a lower cost tier, but I also see this cannibalizes the Premium tier.

As to the smarter point, I'm conceding to the Evernote management.

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35 minutes ago, CalS said:

No idea how smart EN may or may not be, but they seem to have decided on their marketing strategy re tiers and what limitations are applied to each.  From your comments you don't seem to be within that sphere and have opted for Trello.  The beauty of the open market, enjoy.  

I am enjoying that beauty that allows me to came here and suggest. They may listen or may not. I may use the product or may not. I don't demand and don't blame. What's your problem? Be open for a change, would you?

Quote

The reasonable man adapts himself to the world. The unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore all progress depends on the unreasonable man.

34 minutes ago, DTLow said:

but I also see this cannibalizes the Premium tier.

Why? Depends on what to do and like I said if they be smart about it... In fact one of options in my first post suggest introducing new plan without taking anything from Premium - but taking from free (which they already did multiple times in the past).

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4 minutes ago, JamesBlake said:

I am enjoying that beauty that allows me to came here and suggest. They may listen or may not. I may use the product or may not. I don't demand and don't blame. What's your problem? Be open for a change, would you?

Not sure what in my posts exhibits a problem I have.  The problem in this topic would seem to be that EN doesn't do something you want it to do and you don't care for the workaround, be it process or pay.  You are letting them know.  Got it.

If EN decides to change their marketing plan I like everyone else can make my own call at that point based upon value received.

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Given that they've actually got the data and they've decided to get rid of their mid-level tier, my guess is that the revenue generated wasn't worth it. Sounds like you are suggesting something that has already failed once.

If you have a huge text note, then IMHO Evernote is a terrible solution for your use case anyway. And as you have pointed out there are loads of cheap and free alternatives that can probably do what you need them to do.

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18 hours ago, Metrodon said:

they've decided to get rid of their mid-level tier, my guess is that the revenue generated wasn't worth it. Sounds like you are suggesting something that has already failed once.

That is completely irrelevant. The devil is in the details. The low-level tier they just eliminated does not match any of the options I've suggested above. Apparently the tier they've had is failed, which doesn't mean the whole concept of low-tiers is wrong. Also if I'm not mistaken, in the announcement they explicitly mentioned they are looking for replacement... so here was my 2 cents.

The separate question is - did they really looked into the data... being software development I'm witnessing even AAA companies way to often follow emotional-driven approaches rather than real facts analysis and data mining. Top management making feelings-based decisions.

I am actually kind of surprised to seeing that reaction to my thoughts from the crowd. That is the way it is, these are their rules, you either use it or quit - that's what I hear... no one seem tending to question or challenge the status quo, and not even remotely trying to think that things could change. Despite Evernote did changed things in the past and do that quite often.

 

18 hours ago, Metrodon said:

If you have a huge text note, then IMHO Evernote is a terrible solution for your use case anyway.

Well just to clarify - it's all relative... usually my notes is one-two lines that's why it perfectly fits Trello, and by huge I meant something like 50 or 100 lines... so not that huge.

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2 hours ago, JamesBlake said:

I am actually kind of surprised to seeing that reaction to my thoughts from the crowd. 

Dealing with the real world sometimes does suck, both for users and Evernote Management.

>>companies way to often follow emotional-driven approaches rather than real facts analysis and data mining. Top management making feelings-based decisions.

I think this may have been true of the previous management, but not so much the current management.

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2 hours ago, JamesBlake said:

I am actually kind of surprised to seeing that reaction to my thoughts from the crowd. That is the way it is, these are their rules, you either use it or quit - that's what I hear... no one seem tending to question or challenge the status quo, and not even remotely trying to think that things could change. Despite Evernote did changed things in the past and do that quite often.

But that's sort of the name of the game. We the users cannot make Evernote do anything directly; we can advocate (and many of us do, and there's plenty of evidence of it elsewhere in the forums if you don't believe it), admonish (there's a fair bit of that, too), or take our business elsewhere, but we cannot order Evernote to make specific changes. Evernote makes the software/service, and they have a right to choose to make the product that they want to make. So our options as users, and as rational actors, when considering any software product, are to evaluate functionality vs. requirements and cost (and add in considerations of response to feedback, reliability and other factors like that), and make a yes/no decision. When has it ever been different?

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21 minutes ago, jefito said:

But that's sort of the name of the game. We the users cannot make Evernote do anything directly; we can advocate (and many of us do, and there's plenty of evidence of it elsewhere in the forums if you don't believe it), admonish (there's a fair bit of that, too), or take our business elsewhere, but we cannot order Evernote to make specific changes. Evernote makes the software/service, and they have a right to choose to make the product that they want to make. So our options as users, and as rational actors, when considering any software product, are to evaluate functionality vs. requirements and cost (and add in considerations of response to feedback, reliability and other factors like that), and make a yes/no decision. When has it ever been different?

Exactly that. I wasn't trying to make an order or something - did I? To me my initial post explicitly mentioning that I've no idea will it ever be even noticed by anyone from Evernote, but at least I've tried:

Quote

Unlikely right people from Evernote ever gonna see my message, but the hope dies last (or at least I've tried)

The only real leverage we all as users have - vote with $. Unfortunately, voting system never proved to be fast or agile, and often by the time results is available it's already too late.

But I also don't understand why the crowd went against me here just for the fact I express my opinion. Being in software development world for quite a while, I know how hard it is to get feedback from the users, ideas and thoughts to improve the product. In fact many companies were investing into making a feedback process as smooth and hassle free as possible, making the product literally begging for a feedback.

I am not usually into leaving any feedback. I am lazy and busy. But I've been watching Evernote since it was a startup, and many of it's successes inspired me on my own. I kind of genuinely wish all the best for this product and that made me to register and leave that feedback - hoping it may be useful or even if not, well I've tried genuinely to help. Think of it that way - I do not using Evernote at all, and while it is hard to get a feedback from own users, it's extremely hard or not even possible to get feedback from not-users. They don't even know you're asking :)

Evernote team most likely kind of happy to see feedback like mine, even if it's useless - maybe someone else can do better and overall it creates healthy environment for new ideas and improvements. Evernote team, as any other team, would put all the effort to encourage users on giving as much feedback as possible. What all you did in this thread - discourage me and other readers from giving it, so congrats on playing against Evernote.

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1 hour ago, JamesBlake said:

But I also don't understand why the crowd went against me here just for the fact I express my opinion.

Don't think anyone has necessarily been against you.  You expressed an opinion, folks said yeah but that isn't how EN works today, maybe they change their model in the future maybe they don't.  If it doesn't work for you sorry.  Kinda cut and dry, not really thought police.

Oodles of posts ensued when the change to two devices was made a couple of years back.  Only thing that has happened to subscription levels since was the elimination of a tier, for an individual user basis anyway.  If that's a bell weather for anything.

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11 minutes ago, CalS said:

that isn't how EN works today

[sarcasm]Oh thanks for clarifying. That wasn't clear till you said it.[/sarcasm]

No seriously did it really sounded like I'm whining or something? It sounded like a pitch in my head. I never said those are the options they must do or those are the only options in there or anything like that. None of messages in this thread mentioned anything constructive, like arguments or alternative suggestions, it was only "oh no that's not what EN offers today". Oh thanks for pointing out, how didn't I got that myself...

UPD:

No actually there was something constructive when DTLow pointed out low-level tier might draw users from Premium. Which is a valid point, but I already counter argumented on this - depends on how exactly low-level tier will be interfering with Premium features. But in my head,  one of options is - rather than drawing features from Premium, low-level tier can actually draw from free.

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Let me put it that way. Majority of services do not draw people straight to paid subscription. Well all of them certainly wants that bot not all of them are so obviously useful that can afford to do so. And Evernote is not an exception. What most services do is - having free plan to attract users, so people start using it. And when they fully into it, they most probably will explore new scenarios and find out some of the features they'd love is not in free plan. Or simply hit limitations of the free plan and now before a choice to turn to paid or migrate somewhere else (pay extra $ or go through a hassle of a change).

So the strategic goal in this to lower the entry level to attract new users - because more you attract - more % of them will turn to paid subscription.

I'm not an exception, like Dave-in-Decatur pointed out - I may actually like Evernote at some point to justify that 8$/mo.

But here is the thing - I'm just pointing out, that there is probably the entire category of users, like me, that has major blocker on getting into a platform - these having many devices. It's a simple math, that's how I eval every single service out there - I go to the plan comparison page, I see the limit of devices, I go away cause I have more devices that they allow. Cost of quitting for me is 0 - just close the tab in my browser.

Now the valid question is - how many are out there like me with more than two devices - because that is basically the market share EN left behind. And more device these people have - more hassle of quitting when they hit other limitations. So rather than selling point I see the number of devices as attrition point.

That's all I wanted to tell. They do it or not - I don't care. I'm good, I got everything I need.

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5 hours ago, JamesBlake said:

That is completely irrelevant. The devil is in the details. The low-level tier they just eliminated does not match any of the options I've suggested above. Apparently the tier they've had is failed, which doesn't mean the whole concept of low-tiers is wrong. Also if I'm not mistaken, in the announcement they explicitly mentioned they are looking for replacement... so here was my 2 cents.

The separate question is - did they really looked into the data... being software development I'm witnessing even AAA companies way to often follow emotional-driven approaches rather than real facts analysis and data mining. Top management making feelings-based decisions.

I am actually kind of surprised to seeing that reaction to my thoughts from the crowd. That is the way it is, these are their rules, you either use it or quit - that's what I hear... no one seem tending to question or challenge the status quo, and not even remotely trying to think that things could change. Despite Evernote did changed things in the past and do that quite often.

 

Well just to clarify - it's all relative... usually my notes is one-two lines that's why it perfectly fits Trello, and by huge I meant something like 50 or 100 lines... so not that huge.

Any evidence that the Evernote management made emotional rather than data based decisions?

The whole idea of a chinese menu of different tiers has been discussed ad nauseam on these and the prior boards - people will always want to pay for feature x but won't for feature y. The more complexity that gets built into the model the more the cost of management increases as I'm sure you know from your software development experience.

 

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On 8/8/2018 at 5:31 PM, JamesBlake said:

why to put that stupid limit in the first place?

 

On 8/9/2018 at 12:32 PM, JamesBlake said:

What's your problem?

 

25 minutes ago, JamesBlake said:

[sarcasm]Oh thanks for clarifying. That wasn't clear till you said it.[/sarcasm]

 

25 minutes ago, JamesBlake said:

No seriously did it really sounded like I'm whining or something?

A bit, or maybe its the stridency.  If EN decides to add a $2 or $3 tier to accommodate some multi device setup, fine with me.  Then someone may ask for 10 emails a week.  100 MB vs 60 MB a month.  One level of history. 

You watch the forums there are a lot of "if only....."'s  Most get feedback/workarounds of a sort along with good to express your need but don't get your hopes up based upon EN's history in responding.

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12 minutes ago, CalS said:

A bit, or maybe its the stridency.

Yeah it was a bit of stridency. I'm from the East Europe :D

12 minutes ago, CalS said:

Then someone may ask for 10 emails a week.  100 MB vs 60 MB a month.  One level of history.

And that's true. And that's why I put some effort into explaining why is this reasonable from business stand point, and not just because I or someone else want it. Of course people will just prefer free over paid, but that wasn't the point. Like email or heavy size most likely a marker you use it for business so most likely can afford pay for it... Home users may have many devices, it's not a marker - so...

And that's just my opinion, rather emotional based since I don't have access to their data... A chance that I'm wrong doesn't sounds like I shouldn't post this, though.

 

12 minutes ago, CalS said:

but don't get your hopes up based upon EN's history in responding.

I don't need a response, there's really nothing for me in this. Maybe, well maybe, someone will read this and that will start some internal discussion that will result into a some sort of low-level tier or other mean to resolve my particular blocker, then I would call it a day. But if not - hey ho, Friday is finally here.

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2 minutes ago, JamesBlake said:

But if not - hey ho, Friday is finally here.

Scotch time here.

download.jpg.727e6eafb81f2955b0d9a789300213a2.jpg

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On 8/10/2018 at 6:14 PM, CalS said:

Scotch time here.

download.jpg.727e6eafb81f2955b0d9a789300213a2.jpg

Scotch and a cigar....can't beat that ! 

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