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ANSWERED Can't Take it Any Longer - Migrate Out of Evernote

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On 3/11/2019 at 6:43 PM, TheMagicWombat said:

why even have flat-layer notebooks?

Notebooks have an important function in Evernote;
to identify notes as

  • Private/Shared
  • Sync/Local
  • Offline
  • Default  Notebook

I currently use 11 notebooks in my installation; it varies with shared projects

>>... nested folders ... hierarchical storage ...152552875_ScreenShot2019-03-12at01_26_52.png.f2e3713f3bcb9000f0b8c23b1ad18f72.png

Folders are a legacy filing methodology used by some platforms; not used by Evernote
The OS on my Mac uses folders to store Evernote's files.

Folders can be simulated using the Tags feature, and the Tag Tree in the sidebar.  It includes hierarchy for nesting.

>>My information is not stored in a logical fashion, it cannot be stored in a logical fashion, and as a result, I actually hesitate to use Evernote.

You're free to use whatever service you choose.

I choose to use Evernote, I make sure my data is stored in a "logical fashion"

>>The owners are religious fanatics about nested folders being the Devil's work.  ...

I know nothing of the owner's religion and it has no impact on my Evernote use.

It's true that Evernote has no support for folders.
Instead, we have the use of two metadata fields Notebook/Tags and an extensive search feature.

See above for simulating folders using the tag tree in the sidebar.

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

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21 hours ago, Michael Singer said:

No, at least I don't know of any official forum. As far as I can see, at the moment there is only communication via Twitter.
https://twitter.com/NotionHQ

For information about development and what's coming up, go to the footer of their website, where you will find under "Products" the menu item "Whats new".
https://www.notion.so

You a notion employee?

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19 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Sometimes I wonder whether I still do not have a critical mass of notes (2.700 at last count) 

41,000 plus notes, no performance issues.  Could be use case related, hardware, other software, who knows, but I just don't have the performance issues others do.  I have a lot of inertia, too many notes and work flows to want to consider alternatives.  I learned long ago that a search for perfection is just that, a search.  Should things go south for my use case in EN, I will do something.  But in the meantime, juice not worth the squeeze with all these alternatives.

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Personally I think we do not have a problem of too few opportunities, we have a problem of choice and trust into ourselves.

Any decision is at the same time a non-decision: If I choose Evernote, I un-choose Notion etc. and vice versa.

For me I try to take informed choices, take the decision, but then I stick to it. Every day there will be a new opportunity, a better offer, a new gadget, but it is the road to insanity to ask yourself the same question over and over again.

Or as the proverb says: Other mothers may have beautiful daughters as well ...

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About 4000 notes here with several hundred inclusive of PDF's or images, maybe 15% of all notes.

On a Windows 7 laptop - seldom any performance issues, most are due other processes on the PC.

On a Windows 10 desktop - as above.

On my two year old Android phone with its'  Snapdragon 820 and 4GB RAM - the only time I see a pause, and it is a pause of up to 5 seconds sometimes though not always that long but always a pause, is with one note that has a PNG image in it at the top of the note and when I add a comment below the image and tap on the "edit" button I get the pause.

The text formatting is a PITA at times but I've learned how to deal with it on the desktop where most of my large data inputs are made.

Works really well for me. Especially when I go offline into remote areas and I can still access ALL my technical docs.

 

 

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I have ~ 22000 notes, about 50% of them with one or more attachments. Performance problems on windows started about 2 years ago. Contact with support as well as following the forums did not resolve the issue permanently.

Reindexing the database makes it slightly better - for a few days. Not gonna reindex once a week.

Removing and reinstalling (and redownloading all the data) makes it much better -  for a week or 2. Not gonna reinstall twice a month.

Moving the db to ssd (as someone suggested in the forums) did not make a difference. Moving it back to hd because someone else said that was not a good idea to host it on ssd did not make a difference either.

Hardware is 3 years old, i7 with 4GHz and 8 GB RAM, harddisk has more than 50% free space, no problems with gaming (eg cities skylines which is a known to be huge ressource eater) and video rendering. 

It's frustrating. 

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17 minutes ago, chronistin said:

I have ~ 22000 notes, about 50% of them with one or more attachments. Performance problems on windows started about 2 years ago. Contact with support as well as following the forums did not resolve the issue permanently.

Reindexing the database makes it slightly better - for a few days. Not gonna reindex once a week.

Removing and reinstalling (and redownloading all the data) makes it much better -  for a week or 2. Not gonna reinstall twice a month.

Moving the db to ssd (as someone suggested in the forums) did not make a difference. Moving it back to hd because someone else said that was not a good idea to host it on ssd did not make a difference either.

Hardware is 3 years old, i7 with 4GHz and 8 GB RAM, harddisk has more than 50% free space, no problems with gaming (eg cities skylines which is a known to be huge ressource eater) and video rendering. 

It's frustrating. 

Pretty much my identical scenario, except I have 27,000 + notes, and many thousands have PDFs attached.  Several open tickets for "not responding" issue with the usual rebuild dB, change settings, etc.  Nothing worked.

I'm currently using 6.16.4.8094 (308094) Public (CE Build ce-58.1.6897) which is the best I've had in a year or more, and I have refused the last several updates, afraid to try them.  There are a few bugs in this version but it seems stable and doesn't hang as much as earlier "bad" versions.

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On 8/27/2018 at 9:27 PM, jefito said:

Hey, if people want to have a public Evernote swan song, then fine -- I have no problem with that (though I'll confess to being amused by the "gimme nested notebooks by next Tuesday or I'm cutting the cord!" type posts you see occasionally). If people legitimately want bugs and feature requests (which are entirely fair) to be noticed by someone who might actually do something about them or comment with some authority, and not get lost in any drama and side-commentary, then it's probably better to post them appropriately. *shrug*

Especially since Nested Notebooks have been a top request for over a decade now, and Evernote has told us where to go with that request. 

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43 minutes ago, chronistin said:

I have ~ 22000 notes, about 50% of them with one or more attachments. Performance problems on windows started about 2 years ago. Contact with support as well as following the forums did not resolve the issue permanently.

Reindexing the database makes it slightly better - for a few days. Not gonna reindex once a week.

Removing and reinstalling (and redownloading all the data) makes it much better -  for a week or 2. Not gonna reinstall twice a month.

Moving the db to ssd (as someone suggested in the forums) did not make a difference. Moving it back to hd because someone else said that was not a good idea to host it on ssd did not make a difference either.

Hardware is 3 years old, i7 with 4GHz and 8 GB RAM, harddisk has more than 50% free space, no problems with gaming (eg cities skylines which is a known to be huge ressource eater) and video rendering. 

It's frustrating. 

I can see how it would be.  Of my notes 21,451 contain PDFs.  Data base is 20 GB.  Hardware is 6+ years old, 2.6 GHz, 8 GB RAM Lenovo X230 with SSD used in a docking station.  Running Windows 10 Pro, 1809.  SSD solved any performance issues I had back when.  Feeling fortunate I suppose.  Don't know what the secret sauce is...

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13 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

The tags people don't get it, and they never will. They think their way is superior. 

*yawn* The so-called "tags" people get it just fine. The nested notebooks discussion has been well and truly hashed out over here already. The tags people, being possessed of a practical nature, don't care; they ask the question (as should we all): can I use this software as it is? If the answer is "yes", great, if not then the answer is "find something else". Nobody's saying anything about metaphysical superiority; rather, it's whether it works better than other available systems to me workflows. Oh, and by the way, none of this means that tags people might not see a use for nested notebooks; it's just a value judgement that Evernote works better than other solutions (which may also offer nested containers).

13 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

My information is not stored in a logical fashion, it cannot be stored in a logical fashion

Funny, mine is, using mostly tags. There's nothing at all illogical about using tags to categorize your data. It might not suit your purposes to do so, but that doesn't make it ipso facto illogical. It's just different, which you know already, but don't seem to be able to accept. It's like calling chocolate illogical. Or colors.

Quote

we want yadda yadda

I don't know who the "we" is that you refer to. "We" here are all Evernote users (or ex-users). I don't think that you speak for all of us.

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18 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

then why did Evernote permit the creation of more than a single collection box notebook?

Helps with searches.

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18 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

If tags are so great, why even have flat-later notebooks? If organizing data into various categories for storage wasn't important. then why did Evernote permit the creation of more than a single collection box notebook? My not just tag the Hell out of everything and skip the whole multiple flat-layer notebooks?

Notebooks are used to partition your note database into discrete sets of notes. Tags let you categorize across those partitions. I find notebooks useful for sharing a set of notes to a different account (I have two: one for work and one for personal) , for designating a set of notes as local-only (stored on my desktop only), or for designating a set of notes for offline use on a mobile device (i.e., always cached on the device). Amazingly enough, my narrow tag-focused brain is able to handle the distinction just fine.

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1 hour ago, CalS said:

I can see how it would be.  Of my notes 21,451 contain PDFs.  Data base is 20 GB.  Hardware is 6+ years old, 2.6 GHz, 8 GB RAM Lenovo X230 with SSD used in a docking station.  Running Windows 10 Pro, 1809.  SSD solved any performance issues I had back when.  Feeling fortunate I suppose.  Don't know what the secret sauce is...

I have been working towards getting a memory and SSD upgrade for my laptop; maybe soonish.  I hope it helps, but even if not, I want it for other reasons.  I'm actually pretty happy with the version I'm running; it's almost as if everyone needs to find their own sweet spot and just stay put, ignore the updates for as long as possible, etc.

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For me, notebooks are organizational: Import new content here, sync this into the cloud, but that not, share this content, make that group of information available offline etc.

Tags are logic: Relate this bit of information together with those X others, when search will not do it. Or show me that on searching for „open“ notes because when filing it I still regard it as „unfinished“ in some aspect etc. From a practical view Tags work like multidimensional folders („notebooks“). And surprise: Tags can be nested, whoever feels that world peace depends on this humble feature.

That is how it works for me. I even jump between organizing the same information for some time by tag, then by notebook, and later by tag again.

Example: As a habit, I collect a lot of information about possible or desired future travel. As long a I prepare for a trip, it is tagged (Travel_Spain) and not separated from other notes. Before I leave, I create a Notebook „Andalusia 2019“ and set it „offline“ for my i-devices. During the trip, additional information will go there. When I am back, I will tag everything „Andalusia2019“, move the tagged notes into an archive notebook and erase the travel notebook. As I said before: Notebooks are about organisation, tags are about logic.

If somebody can not find / define his personal way to organize and retrieve information in EN, there is a simple solution: Stop paying and leave.

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19 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

 

Evernote is everything I want--except for nested notebooks. To me, doing a Boolean/tag search to find my records every time I want to find them just doesn't work. My information is not stored in a logical fashion, it cannot be stored in a logical fashion, and as a result, I actually hesitate to use Evernote.

Curiously, this is exactly the reason I'm in favor of tags:  my data is not stored in a rigid logical fashion either, I just tag it for later queries.

I don't understand that your data is not stored in a logical fashion,  why do you need subfolders then?

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3 hours ago, chronistin said:

I have ~ 22000 notes, about 50% of them with one or more attachments. Performance problems on windows started about 2 years ago. Contact with support as well as following the forums did not resolve the issue permanently.

Reindexing the database makes it slightly better - for a few days. Not gonna reindex once a week.

Removing and reinstalling (and redownloading all the data) makes it much better -  for a week or 2. Not gonna reinstall twice a month.

Moving the db to ssd (as someone suggested in the forums) did not make a difference. Moving it back to hd because someone else said that was not a good idea to host it on ssd did not make a difference either.

Hardware is 3 years old, i7 with 4GHz and 8 GB RAM, harddisk has more than 50% free space, no problems with gaming (eg cities skylines which is a known to be huge ressource eater) and video rendering. 

It's frustrating. 

Wow!  I empathize.  I have an older, lower end laptop with around 17K notes and the SSD replacement about two years ago was the magic bullet for me.  I removed the HDD and replaced it with an SSD and reinstalled the OS, so everything is running on the SSD not just the database.  I've seen others have reported this problem as well and hope that EN can eventually get to the bottom of it and I keep my fingers crossed that my system continues to remain somewhat problem free.  I sacrifice a chicken every couple of weeks to be on the safe side.

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47 minutes ago, s2sailor said:

Wow!  I empathize.  I have an older, lower end laptop with around 17K notes and the SSD replacement about two years ago was the magic bullet for me.  I removed the HDD and replaced it with an SSD and reinstalled the OS, so everything is running on the SSD not just the database.  I've seen others have reported this problem as well and hope that EN can eventually get to the bottom of it and I keep my fingers crossed that my system continues to remain somewhat problem free.  I sacrifice a chicken every couple of weeks to be on the safe side.

As things are going, I'm willing to try the chicken sacrifice! 🤣

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On 3/12/2019 at 12:54 PM, TheMagicWombat said:

Especially since Nested Notebooks have been a top request for over a decade now, and Evernote has told us where to go with that request. 

I haven't seen the response from Evernote; can you post a link.

The last response I heard from Evernote was when they implemented Stacks to assist with Notebook organization, but that only provides one level of hierarchy.  There is talk of an additional level.

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3 hours ago, eafpres said:

I have been working towards getting a memory and SSD upgrade for my laptop; maybe soonish.  I hope it helps

Ditto.  I find everything is faster with an SSD on board, from booting to all apps. 

Never had a Mac, so I got my daughter's old Macbook Pro when she updated.  It was watch the paint dry slooooow.  Added 4 GB of memory and a 500 GB SSD for $100 and it is like a new machine, though the battery sucks.  Still like my PC better, old dog I suppose.  EN Windows does have some nice bits that EN Mac does not.  But I stray from the topic...

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13 hours ago, CalS said:

I find everything is faster with an SSD on board,

Now if I could only get an SSD for my brain...

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2 hours ago, jefito said:

Now if I could only get an SSD for my brain...

Yeah, available for second brain only. 

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Well, I've come very close a few times in the past. The last time was about a year ago when I took a serious look at Nimbus. Close but no cigar.

Prior to my renewal date in a couple of weeks, I will be downgrading to a free account. I've waited for premium to offer some value and it's just not there. Of my 12,000 notes, only 4 are over 25 mb and I hit about 2% of my monthly upload limit. The two device limit will be a slight aggravation, but as many have posted, there are a couple of workarounds.

Meanwhile, after looking a couple of times and leaving in confusion, I am working on going all in with Notion. The more I look the better it gets. It's cheaper than EN and does so much more. The design and database aspects are amazing. Currently, the only two stumbling blocks for me are no true inbox and you can't email into it. I have devised short term work-arounds, but unlike EN, they are rolling out improvements constantly, and I expect those to be complete soon.

I won't be leaving EN for a while - it will take me weeks, if not months to get Notion setup, but with its import capabilities, I could dump all my EN notes into it in one evening and have everything there in the same structure.

It's been a great 10 years, but it's time to move on. 

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1 hour ago, dbvirago said:

The design and database aspects are amazing. 

Could you add more details on your use for this.

I have spreadsheets/databases in my data, but they're conventional Excel/Numbers and SQLite objects.

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24 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Could you add more details on your use for this.

I have spreadsheets/databases in my data, but conventional Excel/Numbers and SQLite objects.

You can build tables with pretty much any type of field object, including links to other pages or tables. There is a relational database capability which I have seen but not used yet, for one to many type scenarios. You can embed other objects like Excel spreadsheets, but they are static views at this point. I think with the next release, they will be live and editable. 

I've only been on it for a few days and am still learning what it can do.

Right now I am building a to-do list table with text, multi-select, date, numeric and drop-down fields. I will then post a link to that on my main page with a view of only tasks due today and a limited set of fields. That same table, or any subset view of it can be turned into a calendar view with a couple of clicks. 

For Evernote folders that contain a bunch of screenshots, those will become a gallery view, similar to a snippet or card view, but the same page can contain other elements, i.e. tables, etc. 

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Well.... After 9 years, I have downgraded from Premium to Basic.

Had to delete 10 of my 10,000 notes. I won't be able to upload 1,000 times more stuff than I have in years.

I won't be able to look at my notes for those few hours a year I am offline (Until I complete the port to Notion)
I'll be able to buy that extra cup of coffee every day that people keep talking about

 

 

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13 minutes ago, dbvirago said:

downgraded from Premium to Basic. ... Had to delete 10 of my 10,000 notes.

Just wondering about the deleting of notes.

I always assumed my notes would live on if/when I downgraded.  

I know I won't be able to edit the oversize notes.

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You may be right - I made an assumption. The over-sized notes were big PDF manuals, that I never really needed in EN. I have a couple of days left. I'll put one back up there and we'll see. I'll keep you posted.

 

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On 4/2/2019 at 7:20 AM, dbvirago said:

I have devised short term work-arounds, but unlike EN

What are your workarounds?

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Downgrading brings back memories....what I remember from 2+ years ago is, downgrading won't destroy or prevent access to existing large notes, but it will prevent you from creating new ones over the size limit. It may let you edit, but it presumably won't let you save if the edited note is too large. So far, reasonable...but the limit can cause some very subtle problems!

For example, if you cut a large embedded object from a note, get distracted by a notification or something, then paste it in a different part of the note...and the note auto-saves in between the cut and the paste, it might not let you paste, as technically you are making the existing copy of the note, which is under the size limit, into an oversize note.

Or, if you use the EN app control to start a voice (or worse, video) recording...if you accidentally exceed the size that can be saved into a note, it will show you an error message (reasonable) but it will also send whatever you recorded into the bit bucket! Many people have encountered this...support assures is, there is no temp file of your recording. You'll have to re-record whatever it is. Without the size limit, this bug usually only happened when your device was slow, or if the user on a fast device doesn't wait 10-20 secs after stopping the recording for the file to attach itself and appear in the new note. Even on a fast device, if you try to make any other changes to the note before the recording fully saves, the save sometimes fails in which case your recording is lost. With the size limit, it must means there one more condition (size) that could trigger this bit bucket bug...and NO it hasn't been fixed to the best of my knowledge.

Another scenario had to do with pasting objects that are file-less images (ie. you copy an image into the buffer without first downloading it) into a note. Sometimes the paste operation would convert let's say a X MB .png into a 5x MG generic image object during a paste operation. I think that scenario was patched re certain image types, but I highly doubt all the various possible large, file-less paste objects where addressed systematically. This bug could still be lurking, waiting for you. It could cause your note to exceed the size limit inadvertently...or to exceed the upload limit inadvertently.

I haven't reproduced these scenarios in a while; but when I do anything mission critical, even with Premium, I assume they're still out there...waiting to strike!!!

Good luck and do keep us posted.

This makes me want to try Notion. Is there a referal a friend or similar program from them?

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On 4/2/2019 at 8:20 AM, dbvirago said:

Right now I am building a to-do list table with text, multi-select, date, numeric and drop-down fields. I will then post a link to that on my main page with a view of only tasks due today and a limited set of fields. That same table, or any subset view of it can be turned into a calendar view with a couple of clicks. 

I'm following through with a test case for receipts.
I need to store the receipts (scanned pdf) but also do number analysis in a spreadsheet.
I have a working model in Evernote, but it's a painful workflow.
I'll parallel this in Notion

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Just a general note on pc problems

I'd been living with a pc that seemed to be stuck on 100% disk usage most of time for ages.

I  googled it and tried the suggestions on a couple of sites about altering this and that but nothing seemed to work.

The other day out of desperation, I trawled through task scheduler and  and my start up folders and just chucked  a bunch of stuff out.

I could not believe the difference it made, it's been like having a new pc

To view the the 2 startup folders, hold down the windows key and press the "R" key to open the Run box, then type

shell:common startup

for one and 

shell:startup

for the other.

To view what's in your task scheduler , hold down the windows key and press the "R" key to open the Run box, then type

taskschd.msc

If your situation is anything like mine there'll be a load of stuff that you don't need. For example I don't need my printer software doing some task every few minutes, forever.

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OK, just went over the expiration date on my Evernote. The huge PDF file was still there and viewable, but I couldn't move it or even delete if from the Win client. Did so from the web. 

As far as workarounds. I have created a page called Inbox and that is where my web clipper goes. For email and scanned files, I still use EN as the inbox and then move files or screen capture emails into Notion. 

I briefly tested an embedded spreadsheet, but haven't spent much time with it. Spent the last few days moving to a new laptop, so Notion/EN has taken a back seat. 

Re 100% disk usage, I spent a lot of times chasing down suggested fixes for that. There are a ton. some are useful, some not - none cured the problem. The new machine and SSD seems to have taken care of it. Agree on task scheduler. Takes a lot of time to go through it, but it's amazing how much ***** there is in there. 

 

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On 4/14/2019 at 2:12 AM, John in Michigan USA said:

Downgrading brings back memories....what I remember from 2+ years ago is, downgrading won't destroy or prevent access to existing large notes, but it will prevent you from creating new ones over the size limit. It may let you edit, but it presumably won't let you save if the edited note is too large. So far, reasonable...but the limit can cause some very subtle problems!

For example, if you cut a large embedded object from a note, get distracted by a notification or something, then paste it in a different part of the note...and the note auto-saves in between the cut and the paste, it might not let you paste, as technically you are making the existing copy of the note, which is under the size limit, into an oversize note.

Or, if you use the EN app control to start a voice (or worse, video) recording...if you accidentally exceed the size that can be saved into a note, it will show you an error message (reasonable) but it will also send whatever you recorded into the bit bucket! Many people have encountered this...support assures is, there is no temp file of your recording. You'll have to re-record whatever it is. Without the size limit, this bug usually only happened when your device was slow, or if the user on a fast device doesn't wait 10-20 secs after stopping the recording for the file to attach itself and appear in the new note. Even on a fast device, if you try to make any other changes to the note before the recording fully saves, the save sometimes fails in which case your recording is lost. With the size limit, it must means there one more condition (size) that could trigger this bit bucket bug...and NO it hasn't been fixed to the best of my knowledge.

Another scenario had to do with pasting objects that are file-less images (ie. you copy an image into the buffer without first downloading it) into a note. Sometimes the paste operation would convert let's say a X MB .png into a 5x MG generic image object during a paste operation. I think that scenario was patched re certain image types, but I highly doubt all the various possible large, file-less paste objects where addressed systematically. This bug could still be lurking, waiting for you. It could cause your note to exceed the size limit inadvertently...or to exceed the upload limit inadvertently.

I haven't reproduced these scenarios in a while; but when I do anything mission critical, even with Premium, I assume they're still out there...waiting to strike!!!

Good luck and do keep us posted.

This makes me want to try Notion. Is there a referal a friend or similar program from them?

There is. This gets you a $10 credit and me a $5 credit. Their paid plan is $48 a year or $5 monthly. 

 

https://www.notion.so/?r=9af10571a5e74b5594e491b4178a3358

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I will add this. It has always been my intention when/if I downgraded to keep Evernote. The limits placed on the free plan are easily worked around. I could either use the web client on my laptop, or as I did, revoke access to my tablet, since 95% of my use is laptop and phone. I don't hit a tiny fraction of the monthly limit and the 25Mb per note limit is not an issue for me. 

In that way, it could be a backup to Notion or I could modify my use of EN into something else.

That being said, if they keep up the spam trying to get me to upgrade, I will drop it and never look back.

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I first looked at, and tried, Notion back in October last year. Liked the concept and potential but decided it wasn’t really ready to be an Evernote replacement. Looked at it again two weeks ago and tried again, now it’s so much better than Evernote there’s no comparison.

i used Notion’s Evernote importer to transfer 9000 notes (seven years worth) and imported all of them flawlessly in about ten minutes - and nothing imported counts towards the limits on Notions free plan.

Have been using Notion instead of Evernote for the last ten days or so seeing if anything doesn’t work as well as it seems, but everything does. It’s very powerful and very flexible and being updated all the time.

So today I also downgraded my Evernote Plus to the free version, and have switched completely to Notion. I don't have any intention of using Evernote anymore. It’s outclassed, poorly coded, overpriced and now just basically years out of date. 

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4 hours ago, User63 said:

now it’s so much better than Evernote there’s no comparison.

Can you provide details?

I'm interested in the digital filing cabinet stuff  instead of editor details
We know the Evernote provided editor and enml format is more suited to basic notes;
- but it's something I can work with, especially on a Mac

Another interest is expanding beyond the information silos of each note.  
Evernote doesn't allow for sharing or consolidating data between notes;
- the best we can do is note lists and note links 
Currently, I am extracting note data to spreadsheets/databases.

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First, a question that I'll follow up on in another post, Do you use Wordpress?

Glad you're not asking about editor, as I don't really know. My memory of it is it is similar to this window. I do a lot of writing, but other than basics, I don't care.

On to the fun stuff. I am primarily using it and Evernote as a digital filing cabinet. N is so much more customizable, but as User63 said, out of the box, it's exactly the same. The import is seamless, so you end up with what you had in EN. I don't use tags much, but the ones I had came across. What happened to them? They became entries in a property (what they call field types) called Tags.

Besides the ton of other page types or objects you can embed in a page, they have five basic page types. They call them views, which is better descriptor as, just like EN, you can view the same data different ways. EN imports come across with two views, List and Gallery. List view is very similar to List view in EN, with a major exception, I'll get back to. The coolest view is Gallery which is similar to Card view in EN, except you have more control over the image that is shown and the other data is completely customizable and controllable. You do this with the properties I mentioned earlier. And that is the difference also in the List view. You set up these properties, just like fields in a flat file database. Then you control which, if any of these show in the five views. 

For instance, I have a gallery view of Bills Due and Books. The Bills view shows a thumbnail of the bill, due date and amount. The Books view shows a thumb of the book cover, and title. I can open the record up to see the other fields, any freeform text and other things I will talk about in another post.

Table view is just like a flat file database and works like any of them have since dBase or similar back in the dark ages. Board view is a Kanban type display and will group on any field you choose of the Multi-Select variety. So you could have a traditional Kanban showing Urgent, Next, Someday tasks, or, in my Books case, Read, Reading, To-Read- but there is a better, or at least different way to handle that. I could have separate pages, or separate views on the same page, that slices up my books database by those parameters. This is how I handle my task list. There is a master list with everything in it, including due dates, contexts, etc. Then I have views on my Dashboard (a generic name for my main page) with Daily, Today, Tomorrow, Next 7 Days and Done views of all my tasks. All are views of the master list.

One of the coolest views, which I haven't even used yet is the Calendar view. Any database with any date field can be viewed as a calendar. Have more than one date fields? Build a calendar for each. All of these views are highly customizable re which fields you see, the filters and the sorting. So, if I wanted a calendar, showing all of my tasks around the house due in the next two weeks, it's a couple of clicks away. 

That's probably enough for now, but I will say that every time I see someone else's page or a new video, I think of a new way to display some of my EN notes. Meanwhile, they are sitting in the same folders I had in EN and the search function works just as good. 

And trust me, I haven't scratched the surface here. Having said that, for me, their biggest weakness right now is now email into function. I have no doubt that will be out soon as developers are very active, open and honest.

later

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12 hours ago, dbvirago said:

Do you use Wordpress?

Was this directed to me?  I am not a Wordpress user

Not sure the implication, but I do have the tools to extract my data from Evernote for processing

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It seems to me that most of the people with perfomance problems have a lot of attachments and/or PDF´s in Evernote. Perhaps the culprit is there somewhere?

I have a lot of notes, but no PDF´s or attachments in Evernote. I don´t use Evernote as a digital filing cabinet to store files. My files are stored seperately. Evernote is a pure note-taking app/research tool for me.

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3 hours ago, Historynerd said:

I don´t use Evernote as a digital filing cabinet to store files. My files are stored seperately.

On a Mac, Evernote's storage is

  • the note metadata is stored in the Evernote database
  • the note contents are stored separately; a folder for each note

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On 4/17/2019 at 4:33 AM, dbvirago said:

In that way, it could be a backup to Notion

Just following up on the backup issue
It's important that I never loose my data, or access

Is there access to data without internet (offline access), or if the Notion site is down?
Is there a Plan B for access if Notion gets borked?

With Evernote, I have offline access on my Mac and iPad.
My Plan B is to access my backup files; a weekly full export in html format.

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1 hour ago, DTLow said:

Is there access to data without internet (offline access), or if the Notion site is down?
Is there a Plan B for access if Notion gets borked?

Very interesting questions. Evernote do this very well. 

Last time when I gave a try to Notion it was months ago. Notion Is not good for me becouse don't have a "document camera", but only with iphone camera. This add a lot of workaround to my workflow and I make a intensive use of document camera. Evernote have the best document camera I ever used on mobile device. 

I think that Notion is overstimated. 

 

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18 minutes ago, enki said:

I think that Notion is overstimated. 

It may be that some folks are looking so desperately for an Evernote replacement that they're rushing to judgement on something which looks shiny and new.  The most important thing (IM - not exactly - HO) is that whatever solution you choose,  whether it's Keep or Notion or Bear or Evernote,  it has to work for you.  That's the only test.

If you're happy with a method of working,  it's not my place to tell you that you could,  or should,  change it.  I keep on getting asked questions elsewhere about "what's the best...way / app / method / etc" and my stock answer is:  I don't know.  I know what works for me - Evernote in my specific case,  (plus - in no specific order - Airtable, Filterize, Freeplane, MSOffice, RightNote and Google).  But for everyone else - why don't you try what's available and see which you get on with best?

In my experience of changing between to-do apps on a regular basis,  I can more or less guarantee that all the players in the 'note taking' field (that is such a limited description!) will be catching up with each other in various ways - feature A will shine at one app,  and then the others will catch up and one of the competition will now have feature B!

Evernote's competition do have an unfair advantage - they're able to poach the development that Evernote pioneered and jump in with an almost perfect first product;  and they can develop from there.  Evernote has 250M(??) users and a heck of a bandwidth issue as all their connected devices check back with Home Base on a regular basis.  They have a huge operation that runs - relatively - smoothly.  Changes (as windows Desktop users found out recently) can cause disruption.  And Evernote users (you may have noticed) are not shy of sharing their opinions and derision when things go wrong.  Evernote is rightfully cautious of upsetting any apple carts in their development work - and they're normally fairly good at succeeding.

So.  I'm staying in touch with developments - I subscribed to both Filterize and Rightnote this year thanks to the Forums - I watch the webinars on Notion and other solutions,  and fantasise about the interactive database / spreadsheet / calendar / personal assistant that I could probably build... if I spent some time getting thoroughly familiar with the environment,  and then converted 45K notes...  or I could just get on with my work.

My view thus far - if it works,  really - don't fix it!

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2 hours ago, gazumped said:

Evernote's competition do have an unfair advantage - they're able to poach the development that Evernote pioneered and jump in with an almost perfect first product;  and they can develop from there.  Evernote has 250M(??) users and a heck of a bandwidth issue as all their connected devices check back with Home Base on a regular basis.  They have a huge operation that runs - relatively - smoothly.  Changes (as windows Desktop users found out recently) can cause disruption.  And Evernote users (you may have noticed) are not shy of sharing their opinions and derision when things go wrong.  Evernote is rightfully cautious of upsetting any apple carts in their development work - and they're normally fairly good at succeeding.

Extrapolating slightly from this: part of the advantage Evernote's competitors have is precisely that Evernote already has so many users who are used to using it in a specific way, which can tend to make a business cautious about trying to get those users to do something different. (Search the forums for "WTF, where did my X go?") The competitors, starting from scratch, don't have anyone to disappoint or annoy, so they can start with when EN has developed and freely experiment from there.

This is not a defense of everything EN has ever done or failed to do, just an observation about why competitors might seem to catch up or get ahead fast.

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13 hours ago, DTLow said:

Was this directed to me?  I am not a Wordpress user

Not sure the implication, but I do have the tools to extract my data from Evernote for processing

Yes. I only mentioned it because Notion uses Blocks very similar to Wordpress

 

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11 hours ago, Historynerd said:

It seems to me that most of the people with performance problems have a lot of attachments and/or PDF´s in Evernote. Perhaps the culprit is there somewhere?

I have a lot of notes, but no PDF´s or attachments in Evernote. I don´t use Evernote as a digital filing cabinet to store files. My files are stored separately. Evernote is a pure note-taking app/research tool for me.

Of my 41,801 notes 21,633 are PDFs, some large but most not.  !0% are 1 MB or larger.  Data base is 21.3 GB.  And I have no response time issues.

My docked laptop is 6 years old with 8 GB of memory and a 256 GB SSD.  I turn off all the services I can in Windows, particularly any of their data capture and indexing stuff.  I also try to keep other concurrent processes at a minimum exclusive of cloud sync services and he like.  All that being said, don't know what the twinkie dust is that prevents me from hitting the performance issues of others.

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3 hours ago, gazumped said:

The most important thing (IM - not exactly - HO) is that whatever solution you choose,  whether it's Keep or Notion or Bear or Evernote,  it has to work for you.  That's the only test.

Yeah, so with all this noise I downloaded Notion to take a look.  Tried for 10 minutes to get a PDF to display in line and couldn't.  Okay fine.

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Took a look as well.

Notion seems stronger in building workflows and cockpits / dashboards. Looks nicer, GUI is more flexible.

But I have not found the massive, reliable data silo with good-to-perfect retrieval I need for my usecase.

So for me it is EN for the next future. This is plainly personal, others may evaluate features differently, and everybody has an own usecase to support.

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On 4/19/2019 at 12:33 PM, dbvirago said:

I only mentioned it because Notion uses Blocks very similar to Wordpress

Thanks

I understand the "blocks"

In Evernote, the "blocks" are maintained as separate objects (attachments); some with inline display
The method of inserting a "block" is to embed a link
- another note
- a file (spreadsheet, word document, pdf, image, ...)

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On 4/17/2019 at 7:30 AM, dbvirago said:

There is. This gets you a $10 credit and me a $5 credit. Their paid plan is $48 a year or $5 monthly. 

https://www.notion.so/?r=9af10571a5e74b5594e491b4178a3358

I tried this and it gave me an extra $10 credit. I haven't set up billing yet, so if you haven't got your $5 maybe they don't do it unless I covert to a paying customer? Which I will likely do. Thanks.!

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15 hours ago, John in Michigan USA said:

I tried this and it gave me an extra $10 credit. I haven't set up billing yet, so if you haven't got your $5 maybe they don't do it unless I covert to a paying customer? Which I will likely do. Thanks.!

Folks, if you want to discuss relative merits of of Notion or other Evernote competitors, that's probably fine for the forums. If you want to get into the business of recruiting others for other competitors, passing Notion credits around, etc., then you should probably continue via PM.

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On 3/11/2019 at 9:35 PM, DTLow said:

The greatest trick the Devil ever pulled was convincing the world he didn't exist.

What was this for?

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31 minutes ago, MatS14 said:

What was this for?

I was trying to be clever in reponding to a comment "The owners are religious fanatics about nested folders being the Devil's work"

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13 hours ago, jefito said:

Folks, if you want to discuss relative merits of of Notion or other Evernote competitors, that's probably fine for the forums. If you want to get into the business of recruiting others for other competitors, passing Notion credits around, etc., then you should probably continue via PM.

Fair point, should have thought of that.

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12 hours ago, John in Michigan USA said:

Fair point, should have thought of that.

No worries. It's really not my call, but I thought it might just be a little more courteous to the Evernote folks, it all.

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Hey everyone! I have seen a lot of discussions about switching from Evernote to other products here and on Twitter recently. 

As someone who has made the migration from Evernote to Notion, this made me curious and I have decided to look into why people are moving away from Evernote for a school project. 

If you have stopped using Evernote or are thinking about leaving and can spare two minutes to fill out this form (it's really short), I'd be super appreciative. Thank you!

https://evernotesurvey.typeform.com/to/xnbBng?fbclid=IwAR1TrTiXzW0-3UCTr2Y9iKyTYKNBJLDznRkylqhFQFU0AD0IVgH1WhrQj5Q

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On 4/19/2019 at 3:30 PM, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Extrapolating slightly from this: part of the advantage Evernote's competitors have is precisely that Evernote already has so many users who are used to using it in a specific way, which can tend to make a business cautious about trying to get those users to do something different. (Search the forums for "WTF, where did my X go?") The competitors, starting from scratch, don't have anyone to disappoint or annoy, so they can start with when EN has developed and freely experiment from there.

This is not a defense of everything EN has ever done or failed to do, just an observation about why competitors might seem to catch up or get ahead fast.

The current mess with the Android version is anything but smooth. Poor communication from the Evernote team, incomplete instructions for inexperienced users AND it's taking them much too long to solve the search issue that people with far fewer notes are dealing with. Going back to v8.8.1 helped tons, but there's definitely some grumbling as this issue drags on.....

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Tried to use Notion exclusively for 2 months but now see myself going back to Evernote. The biggest challenge is getting information into Notion quickly. 

The organizational freedom in Notion is great, but I ended up spending too much time trying to figure out the best way to organize data as opposed to working with it. 

It did help me simplify how I use Evernote going forward, so in that regard it was a useful exercise. 

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RY27 - good comments. I like Notion's organizational flexibility too and the look/feel are nice. It can't currently store documents and allow for editing those documents and saving back to Notion, which Evernote does well. Notion requires you to download documents, make changes and then re-upload. That's too many steps to make the other benefits worth it for me. They say this feature is coming so I might check it out again later. I'd like it if Evernote incorporated some of Notion's organizational features.

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12 hours ago, d1234abc said:

RY27 - good comments. I like Notion's organizational flexibility too and the look/feel are nice. It can't currently store documents and allow for editing those documents and saving back to Notion, which Evernote does well. Notion requires you to download documents, make changes and then re-upload. That's too many steps to make the other benefits worth it for me. They say this feature is coming so I might check it out again later. I'd like it if Evernote incorporated some of Notion's organizational features.

Agree on all counts. 

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On 5/9/2019 at 2:14 AM, RY27 said:

Tried to use Notion exclusively for 2 months but now see myself going back to Evernote. The biggest challenge is getting information into Notion quickly. 

The organizational freedom in Notion is great, but I ended up spending too much time trying to figure out the best way to organize data as opposed to working with it. 

I think I had more or less the same reaction when I looked at it a few months ago: cool stuff, but how the heck do I get started? And how do I turn it into the all-purpose, searchable shoebox that I use Evernote for?

I never quite got over the edge on that one, and Evernote continues to be useful in its own unique way, so Notion isn't really on my radar currently.

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1 hour ago, jefito said:

I think I had more or less the same reaction

Yup.  Got that t-shirt.

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I've used Evernote since the beginning.

I started paying premium street a couple years.

I've had a Synology NAS since 2012. The new Note Station is pretty amazing! AND there's a *DIRECT IMPORT* from Evernote to Synology.

Oh, and Note Station it's "free", "unlimited"storage, and you can have as many users as you want for no cost.

Is it perfect? No. Is it for everyone? No.

But it's darn good replacement that fits my workflow. If you have a Synology, you NEED to at least try it!

Sorry Evernote, but I doubt I'll be back.

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No problem when it suits your workflow.

As many others I am operating a Synology as well. Testing Note Station, I was not convinced from the searchability including attachments and pictures, and from the access to my notes when traveling. Yes, I run my own VPN-tunnel with fast Connections, but when I am away, nobody can restart the stuff just in case ...

So I decided for my usecase that I stick with both.

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Finally, I thought I was the only one. The people who run Evernote are capital I Incompetent. I'm sorry. I don't want to be mean. Software developers and UX designers have their own struggles when running complicated apps like this, and it's never easy work.

That said, Evernote has officially exhausted any understanding I might have for them. They continue to make the wrong moves, disregarding feedback and mismanaging priorities. I'm inclined to believe the people managing this company are either malicious or stupid, and have completely run out of any and all sympathy for them.

 

The apps are buggier than a hornet's nest across all platforms, and haven't gotten better... but hey, thanks for letting me try "the new Evernote." New look, same bugs ❤️

If you have a problem, good luck reporting it; only premium users can contact Evernote. I understand gating tech support behind a paywall, but this is for all contact requests, which means you can't even provide useful suggestions or feedback.  That's easily the single most stupid policy I've ever encountered in my 18 years on the web. I bet Evernote staff think everything's going okay because nobody can actually send them proper feedback or bug reports. But hey, feel free to use the forums which none of you read!

You've fallen in ranks on the app stores, and have laid off a large portion of your workforce at the start of the fiscal year. Surely you realize something is up. And how do you decide to turn your pathetic excuse for a service around? This worthless, tone-deaf excuse for a campaignThis is INSULTING. This proves you are out of touch with your actual users. This was the last straw for me.

 

You don't have ANY goodwill left, Evernote. You are the Fallout 76 of note taking apps. I literally hate you guys. 

 

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4 hours ago, Saito Yui said:

The apps are buggier than a hornet's nest across all platforms, and haven't gotten better...

Hi.  Sorry you've obviously have had a bad experience,  but the dozen or so folks here don't seem to represent the vast bulk of Evernote users who -like me- find the apps annoying,  frustrating and various other things from time to time,  but still capable of doing what I need.

On your other points - this is a (mainly) user-supported forum,  but Evernote is making an effort to get employees to contribute more frequently.  Like many other software houses,  Evernote prioritises paying customers for email support,  but each new release has a dedicated thread here where anyone can post bugs and issues and there's also a Twitter feed @EvernoteHelps which is open to everyone.  Evernote staff do read and respond to comments,  but there are better things for them to do than defend past errors or justify current ones - like fixing all the above. 

Evernote did not 'lay off a large portion of its workforce' - I don't know exact numbers but a handful of managers out of 300+ staff doesn't seem like a major blow.  Feel free to correct me if you have better numbers on that.

The company seems to have some smart people who say they are trying to turn things around - if they do (and we're all waiting for the shoe to drop on that one) I'll be very pleased.  If not,  I may be re-opening that Notion account I tried briefly last year...  but we're not there yet.

 

 

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Funny thread, now running over 3 web pages. There seem to be many that „leave“, but somehow still stay on to tell everybody how badly they were treated.

Let us do a comparison, with mobility:

- Someone who is on the free account is like a hitchhiker, traveling from A to B on the goodwill of others (of course there is a reason for a free account, be it marketing strategy or an easy sharing option for non subscribers, but I am talking about people who decided for a free account, use it for the core functions and have no intention to ever pay for what they get. With EN, you can stay infinitely, other services will throw you out after a while). Fine, but stop bitching that the seat was with crumbs and a shock absorber needs service. You take it as it is, you may even have some nice talk with the driver, but that is it.

- Then there is owning a car. It is as it is when you buy, you will have it serviced, but it will not be upgraded, so newer models will have more gadgets, and sometimes things you would like to have. This would compare to a purchased piece of software, which EN does not offer, other note taking apps do. So pick your choice, but don’t blame others that the decision showed itself later to be not as good as another one would have been. In hindsight we are all little Einsteins.

- And then there is renting a car or a ride, or buy a ticket for public transport. Then I get a new service every time I am using it, and I have a valid contract with the other party, money for service. Then I am financing the whole thing with my share, and have the right for reasonable service in terms of the contractual conditions.

Translation into this subject:

Hey, BASIC users (those who use it as a full service without wanting to pay): Stop bitching, take it as it is, helps to improve it etc. But do not blame others if you do not get what you would like to have. It is your decision to be with EN, and you can stay on for free or leave for good. EN makes sure you have access to your data (even when you came from a paid model with a ton of content, and are now on BASIC), and the possibilities to download your stuff and leave are numerous and well documented. Nobody is locked into anything.

All the rest: Use the access to the company we have, help get what you want and need by feeding support with good, reasonable input.

My impression is that EN has and is still gaining momentum to improve things, front end (what we are all talking about) as well as back end (which is rarely discussed, but works phenomenal in speed and accuracy). And yes, there is plenty of room for improvement because things are as they are. My feeling is that my data is in the right place, and I invest some time into helping to get things done for better.

EN support in general is friendly, reacts reasonably fast, usually has a lot of questions (which is probably needed for reproducibility), and stays with a claim as long as it is settled or clear that it is not a bug, but a feature not built into the current software. I am fine with this, a few providers do better, many are worse.

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I thought I was the only one who felt like quitting EN, but there are clearly many others who feel this way. I've been a faithful devotee since day-one (almost). I use on Mac, iOS, Android and Win and I feel that the app (and company) have really lost their way. I LOVE the brand. I LOVE what it did, but now the experience is getting increasingly painful. All the apps are so, so slow compared to how they were. The UI is getting flabby and complicated and just looks so out-of-date.

I want to support this product. I really want to feel the same way about it that I used to, but EN seem to be on a path of self destruction. The personal cost to migrate is very high, but this thread has helped give me some ideas of what to look at.

If EN read this... PLEASE, for the love of cheeses, read the posts in this thread!

 

 

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5 hours ago, Jef-one-f said:

If EN read this... PLEASE, for the love of cheeses, read the posts in this thread!

I don't think Evernote are unaware of the need to improve their service.  The new CEO Ian Small has been quite open about the problems,  and -he says- is working on the fixes...

https://evernote.com/blog/looking-ahead-evernotes-priorities-2019/

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28 minutes ago, John in Michigan USA said:

We've been asking for better communications. Here is a start ... 

FYI, main thread is here:

 

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On 5/14/2019 at 7:13 AM, PinkElephant said:

Funny thread, now running over 3 web pages. There seem to be many that „leave“, but somehow still stay on to tell everybody how badly they were treated.

Let us do a comparison, with mobility:

.... 

Premium user since like forever. Too many legacy notes to make a switch worthwhile at this point. 

Support experience: Being made to jump through some hoops, then getting a message that the ticket was like being taken over by development and therefore closed. Never heard of it again. That includes data corruption (a big nono, note that there is no note integrity check) problems on iOS which I reported repeatedly. Saw then once, much later, the problem being addressed in a release note for iOS. Had really stopped using it by then actively on iOS, due the corruption problems and UI changes that made functionality worse. 

In 10+ years practically no progress on the apps, apart from misguided attempts to follow Apples latest misguided iOS design trends (remember Scott Forestall or so, I stopped use after whiteout, low contrast, minimal information density).

Web interface still not fully functional (the old one is still the best)... Do we have highlights in the new one now?... I'm tired of checking. 

Windows : torn between using antique and beta versions, and between a little bit of useful functionality versus new, often old bugs. Long periods of "spinning beach all" or whatever the Windows equivalent is, making use a chore rather than a pleasure. The editor had some improvements, but still sucks. Don't know why some people classify it as a note taking application. Using it only for web clips and looking up legacy notes these days. 

The only product I'm using where I check a user forum, in hope of good news... Still waiting. Doing productive work elsewhere... 

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16 minutes ago, lhb said:

Still waiting. Doing productive work elsewhere... 

I've filed support tickets.  Critical issues have been addressed; still some outstanding non-critical stuff, but there are work-arounds.

I continue to be productive using Evernote (Mac and iPad).  It's my digital file cabinet.

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Maybe it is that I just moved in in 2017, and am seriously going digital since mid 2018.

So I have no feeling of being locked into something that is aging more and more. I am mostly using iOS, followed by windows initially and Mac since a few weeks. No Android, and very rarely the web client.

My stuff is nearly always updated to the latest official version (no betas), OS and apps. It is working, apart from the one or other bug discussed here, like the „freeze-on-search“ of the iOS client solved recently.

So far no data corruption, no lost content, no font display issue, no snailing along (caused by the EN client) etc. When I had any issues, support normally reacted within a reasonable response time. The only thing is that for 1 question you submit, they will come back with 3 more on you. But they really want to circle the problem, so whenever I can spend the time needed, they get, what they want, and usually deliver.

Maybe I was just lucky up to now. But I feel that I get a fair product for the money I pay, and the attention I invest.

Anybody who feels differently should not be too impressed by my personal experience. Setups are different, users are different, usecases are different. And everybody is free to choose whatever tool they like.

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I'm still using 6.16.4 Windows client--it's laggy as it has been for years, but stable.  I quit using iOS a long time ago as sync kept going haywire--too bad, I liked to use my mobile to catch up in the evening.  So that's about 40% of functionality lost to me.  I'm hopeful as always.  I lost a bunch of stuff last year when I discovered a bug in EN after making several notebooks local trying to improve performance.  Way back, they tried what I felt was wrong-headed on-demand sync, and when I made notebooks local, all the unsynced notes content were lost.  Support helped me find a backup I had made and it is possible to repair them ONE BY ONE, and as they are old archive for client work I have not taken the time.  Every so often I look at that folder of an old dB on my desktop, and think, someday.  I don't feel I have the time to try other solutions and work through all the issues--my notes are heavily populated with PDFs so any migration has to do that automatically or it's DOA.  I played with Notion, and see the updates, but haven't had time to try the more recent migration options to see if I could really do it.  Given that I no longer do multi-device thanks to the iOS issues (for me) and I'm a one-person company, I could downgrade to non-premium, I suppose.  However, the real thing that holds me back is the web clipper and ability to route emails into EN.  The latter let's me subscribe to all manner of industry stuff I use for my consulting and then organize it in one place, vs. going to email then going to something else.  The former is how I get pretty much all other content, aside from occasional PDFs that I cannot directly clip as PDF for some reason.  I had a CEO once who said a company should only deliver enough value to customers to prevent them from leaving for the next best option, and keep the rest of the value for the company.  This seems very much like that.

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Some of the Guru's comments here make me and many other sick.

Evernote. you feed us bug after bug. I am still on version 6.7 for Windows and old version on Android, because they are better than any new versions you are releasing. EN you should be ashamed, that your user are doing this and posting such a comments.

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8 hours ago, AndreasM said:

Some of the Guru's comments here make me and many other sick.

That's sad. 
You could seek medical help.

Back to the Evernote.
Yes, there are bugs, but nothing I can't work around; Mac and IOS, current versions

Is there a reason you use an app that causes you so much unhappiness?

>> You are a special guru, for you everything works or you know a work around.

Namaste

Guru: Sanskrit term for a "teacher, guide, expert, or master" of certain knowledge or field.

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You are a special guru, for you everything works or you know a work around. EN must be happy to have such a supporter.

Open your eyes and look at the posts here above. I am especially sick of your comments.

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On 3/12/2019 at 5:20 PM, eric99 said:

Curiously, this is exactly the reason I'm in favor of tags:  my data is not stored in a rigid logical fashion either, I just tag it for later queries.

I don't understand that your data is not stored in a logical fashion,  why do you need subfolders then?

My data is not stored in a logical fashion because storing in in a logical fashion in Evernote is impossible. Evernote is the equivalent of having a C drive that can only have ONE layer of sub-directories. No sub-folder \Games and a sub-folder in there of \Steam and a sub-folder in there of \Skyrim with a folder in there of \Saves with a foler in there of \Daya with a folder in there of \Archives. Instead, just have one sub-directory and ALL your related files you would like to sort laying around unsorted. No one here would think that would be a good limit. There is a reason nested-folders are used in the physical world and the digital world. 

Can you imagine a file drawer at the office where all you get is the label on the drawer, say the letter "S" and then ALL matters and documents relating to all clients who have a last name beginning with S are stored in chronological format, and in order to find the final disbursement letter for the Sangee 2014 Will you have to you have to ask the office secretary to run a database search to find which document ID # you need to pull?

Using tags is the equivalent of eliminating sub-directories and having a PIF data-set attached to each file telling it WHAT program it works with and WHAT it is supposed to be doing. That would mandate that each and every time you wanted to access your data, you would have to scan each and every PIF file to see what goes with what before your software could load.

That would take insane amounts of overhead time.

Might even force you to purchase a SSD to compensate for the horrible design of an OS that would be...

But, I digress 😎

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5 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

My data is not stored in a logical fashion ... There is a reason nested-folders are used in the physical world and the digital world. 

As noted, Evernote does not support folder/sub-folder organization

Folders are an archaic organization method, used with paper documents (physical world)
Computers allow for "logical" organization, using Notebook/Tags (digital world)

Also note: we can emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar768749508_ScreenShot2019-05-30at07_19_01.png.3361dc6b713fe94c296968dfddf36aa7.png
Screenshot is from my Mac

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The most relevant argument against a „deep“ folder structure is that down at the end, each document is filed into exactly one folder. The structure may be as elaborate as they come, but real world files are typically used in more than one way.

  1. Let me receive an invoice, and let us play the folders game. It starts in my INBOX-folder, and is reviewed and send into the process.
  2. First folder is invoices received, open for payment. Bookkeeping takes care, and adds the payment date.
  3. Then it goes into the folder „relevant for tax declaration“. The accountant will look after this, and will add the declaration number.
  4. Meanwhile I want to know how much business I am doing with the supplier, so I move it into „Purchasing projects“, and categorize it, writing the categories into an attachment to the original doc.
  5. Then I have a quality problem, so I move it to „warranty issues“, together with my letter with the claim, and the shipment slip. 
  6. and so on

Is this realistic ? No ! What you find in the real world is that copies of the original file are created along the way, placed into the folders for the new context, and even worse different people will start to modify and amend them at different points in time. What is the relevant and most up to date version of the file is often impossible to tell. Nested folders do this, all the time !

Not with me ?! Get a duplicates program, set the parameters to find „near dupes“ as well and start a search !

This is why tagging is so superior to „nesting folders into folders“: There is one document, that will rest in its place all the time. Tags are used to create multiple access points to this document, and all changes or additions go into there, making it more valuable with each addition.

If you invest the same effort into a good tagging structure (nesting tags is possible ! ) as often goes into folder-structures, you will improve your document handling and at the same time reduce your informational drag, like copies on copies of documents.

EN could do completely without folders, except that some functions like sharing, local or downloaded copy are today controlled on notebooks and their content. IMHO it would be driving development into the completely wrong direction if EN would restructure the database to make deep nested notebook (folder) structures possible.

If you can not make the mental step alone, get a consultant to help you out of the jungle of folder trees. Because the new structure will serve you so much better, it is money well invested (I am not a consultant). A good consultant will focus on your processes, not the structure to serve them.

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OK, before we go trit-trotting down the road of rehashing notebooks vs. folder vs. tags all over again, just remember that it's's all been done before: 

10 years and counting!!

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2 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

The most relevant argument against a „deep“ folder structure is that down at the end, each document is filed into exactly one folder. The structure may be as elaborate as they come, but real world files are typically used in more than one way.

  1. Let me receive an invoice, and let us play the folders game. It starts in my INBOX-folder, and is reviewed and send into the process.
  2. First folder is invoices received, open for payment. Bookkeeping takes care, and adds the payment date.
  3. Then it goes into the folder „relevant for tax declaration“. The accountant will look after this, and will add the declaration number.
  4. Meanwhile I want to know how much business I am doing with the supplier, so I move it into „Purchasing projects“, and categorize it, writing the categories into an attachment to the original doc.
  5. Then I have a quality problem, so I move it to „warranty issues“, together with my letter with the claim, and the shipment slip. 
  6. and so on

Is this realistic ? No ! What you find in the real world is that copies of the original file are created along the way, placed into the folders for the new context, and even worse different people will start to modify and amend them at different points in time. What is the relevant and most up to date version of the file is often impossible to tell. Nested folders do this, all the time !

Not with me ?! Get a duplicates program, set the parameters to find „near dupes“ as well and start a search !

This is why tagging is so superior to „nesting folders into folders“: There is one document, that will rest in its place all the time. Tags are used to create multiple access points to this document, and all changes or additions go into there, making it more valuable with each addition.

If you invest the same effort into a good tagging structure (nesting tags is possible ! ) as often goes into folder-structures, you will improve your document handling and at the same time reduce your informational drag, like copies on copies of documents.

EN could do completely without folders, except that some functions like sharing, local or downloaded copy are today controlled on notebooks and their content. IMHO it would be driving development into the completely wrong direction if EN would restructure the database to make deep nested notebook (folder) structures possible.

If you can not make the mental step alone, get a consultant to help you out of the jungle of folder trees. Because the new structure will serve you so much better, it is money well invested (I am not a consultant). A good consultant will focus on your processes, not the structure to serve them.

Your theories are fascinating. However, I would bet cold hard cash that on your computer you use deeply nested folders.

Again, as always, some people love feeling like rebels who eschew convention and  use those tags to emulate an almost good enough nested filing system. 

Others of us, however, prefer not to emulate with almost as good as. We prefer to just do it the right way.

Interestingly enough, if you look at your Evernote install, you will note that when Evernote installs itself, it creates for itself a nested folder system that appears to be... My, my, my... Looks like 8-10 nestings deep!

As for your suggestion that I adopt your preferred way of storing data--Are you serious? You actually believe that your way of doing things is the BEST way, and everyone else should do it your way? I would never, ever, have enough sagacity to recommend you adopt my methodology because I know different tools do different jobs, and and different methods work better for different people. 

However, having read your description of how you perceive nested folders and filing works, I see the problem--you have mistaken a filing system for an accounting system. Your accounting system will be able to crunch all that data for you, without you needing to go and pull the individual records.

I hope I have resolved that issue for you. 

And, here, let me say it again: There are two sides on this argument:

1. People who want genuinely nested folders and say tags don't cut it.

2. People who hate nested folders and claim that the tags system emulates a nested folder system well enough.

Side 1 is more than happy to let people use tags, they just want what works for themselves. Side 2... Just doesn't get it. Here, let me try and give an analogy that is pretty much spot on whenever someone says tags emulate a nested folder system "good enough":

You like Martinis. You have one (and only one) every day on the drive home from work. One day, because your normal road is being worked on, you take an alternate route and stop at a new bar. You go in and order a Martini. The barkeep says, "We don't serve those--we serve White Russians instead. They do the same job as a Martini." 

You reply with, "I don't want a White Russian, I would like a Martini."

Barkeep: "Tell you what, I will serve your White Russian in a Martini glass so you can emulate drinking a Martini."

You: "It isn't the same thing!"

Barkeep: "I gotta tell ya, I've had a Martini before, and White Russians are WAY better. Perhaps you could see a hypnotherapist to convince you that a White Russian tastes as good as a Martini! I swear you will get just as drunk!"

Snare drum and symbol crash! Audience laughter.  

Curtains come down.

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1 hour ago, TheMagicWombat said:

However, I would bet cold hard cash that on your computer you use deeply nested folders.

For digital document storage - No folders

I use Evernote; it's Notebooks and Tags

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10 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

 

1. People who want genuinely nested folders and say tags don't cut it.

Well I would say that Evernote is just not for them. I mean, you can always feature request something, but changing to nested folders would change the core functionality of Evernote.  It's like saying I want a Lamborghini, but make it  a truck. It won't happen. So if someone needs nested folders, they shouldn't be using Evernote.

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2 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Side 2... Just doesn't get it

I think we got it - but we also use a product that doesn't currently have this feature.  So the choices are:

  1. Hope that Evernote sees the benefit of making it available,  goes through development,  testing and beta stages as quickly as possible,  and offers the option in a year or two...
  2. Make the best use you can of what you got.

I'm with side 2 again... <_<

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1 hour ago, chronistin said:

Well I would say that Evernote is just not for them. I mean, you can always feature request something, but changing to nested folders would change the core functionality of Evernote.  It's like saying I want a Lamborghini, but make it  a truck. It won't happen. So if someone needs nested folders, they shouldn't be using Evernote.

Nothing could be further from the truth. Name ONE feature of Everenote that would have to be removed in order to place in nested folders.

Making a Lamborghini into a truck requires both extra mass, and ruining the aerodynamics. Adding nested folders? For the last decade, the people who release Evernote have never, not once, claimed that adding in nested folders would break Evernote. What they have said is that tags applied liberally to every record and learning their feature-rich boolean hypertext search protocols/language is better. 

But they have never said one precludes the other. Indeed, since every other record storage program, including your free version of Gmail, uses both nested folders and tags, it is difficult to even envision how adding nested folders would remove one whit of functionality. 

That feature has been requested for, as someone has already pointed out, a decade. The people who own Evernote don't want to add it because they want the world to do it their way, which they have convinced themselves is the best way, and have made an active decision--probably for branding purposes--or excluding nested notebooks. 

Evernote does one thing well for my purposes--clip information from the web. That is it. No other program clips web pages as well. So I clip the data, and then I do what I dread--look at all my clipped data, and try to figure out how to organize it--using a single-nesting protocol.

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Funny that this pops up again and again.

First, for me anyone can do what he likes or believes that it will work best.

Second, for a very long time people were bound to have one (1) original document. It was laborious to reproduce it, copying machines were not found except in large companies etc. So our believe that the true way of setting up an archive must be to have a note, in a binder, in a folder, on a shelf, in a rack ... originated from these days, because you had to be able to find this one document when needed.

Today the most effective way to manage things has switched from finding that letter somehow, somewhere to a process oriented view. So it is about to make the information available when it is needed, where it is needed, for the purpose it is needed for etc. When this is done in a folder structure, it automatically creates a flood of near duplicates, as described in my post above.

I have started to clean out my own mess created this way 2 years ago. The duplicate finder Programms are my best friend, and I am tearing down the nested structure build over years because my dear Windows did not really allow to do things in any other way. This takes a while, but with the old data I have no pressure. I have already eliminated more than 1 TB of files that were re-created over the years, all duplicate stuff.

New filings I try to set up in the process oriented way mentioned above, and by adding and conserving information gained while doing so always to the one Information carrying object that is handled. And yes, I am still learning how to, and sometimes have to go a few steps backwards and try it differently.

How EN is filing things in its intestines is without relevance for me. If it creates a nested structure to store the attachments (!) because forced to do so by the OS, be it. The workings of EN are controlled by a relational database. This data structure is not nested, for sure, because it would be contrary to the basic design of a relational database. It could be emulated, but only with negative impact on the performance. Tagging is in line with the relational concept.

This is why I am against adding a nested notebook (folder) structure to EN. As Chronistin says, who believes he needs this feature should move on to another tool that from its data design is set up to support deep nesting.

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2 minutes ago, gazumped said:

I think we got it - but we also use a product that doesn't currently have this feature.  So the choices are:

  1. Hope that Evernote sees the benefit of making it available,  goes through development,  testing and beta stages as quickly as possible,  and offers the option in a year or two...
  2. Make the best use you can of what you got.

I'm with side 2 again... <_<

I got no problem with glumly acknowledging those 2 choices. What I do argue with is the people who arrogantly tell me that I am some stone-age Neanderthal who might as well be eating a raw bunny for sustenance because I "think" I need the functionality of nested notebooks, but if simply structure my data the way they structure theirs, I will suddenly I join Homo Sapiens, and my Beef Wellington with Crème brûlée and Chambolle-Musigny will be waiting for me.

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9 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Nothing could be further from the truth. Name ONE feature of Everenote that would have to be removed in order to place in nested folders.

 

Somewhere in these forums, it has been explained thoroughly that the underlying logic of EN is not hierarchical, therefore nested folders would be a ressource-eating add on.

But that's beside the point. Because even if the one and only reason for not having nested folders is that EN developers do not want to provide nested folders, there will be no nested folders. So why continue beating a dead horse? 

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5 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

First, for me anyone can do what he likes or believes that it will work best.

Second, for a very long time people were bound to have one (1) original document. It was laborious to reproduce it, copying machines were not found except in large companies etc. So our believe that the true way of setting up an archive must be to have a note, in a binder, in a folder, on a shelf, in a rack ... originated from these days, because you had to be able to find this one document when needed.

Today the most effective way to manage things

And you started off so well...

There is NO "most effective" way to store things. There is a feature that every other database on the planet has because it is useful, and then there is Evernote which has tags--just like every other database on the planet. Some of us would stop looking for an alternative to Evernote IF it had nested folders. We would like this feature. but when we come in here, and voice our desire for it--or commiserate over not having it--some people feel the need to... Well, see my Neanderthal message within the last 4 posts. 

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13 minutes ago, chronistin said:

Somewhere in these forums, it has been explained thoroughly that the underlying logic of EN is not hierarchical, therefore nested folders would be a ressource-eating add on.

But that's beside the point. Because even if the one and only reason for not having nested folders is that EN developers do not want to provide nested folders, there will be no nested folders. So why continue beating a dead horse? 

1. No, It has been explained, it has argued by the fans that it would eat resources. To anyone who champions that, I would steer you to the other posts in here where people have pointed out nesting notebooks are nothing more than an additional field in a record--namely when pulling in records to display for the user it looks at that field of what the parent-folder is, and then displays them accordingly. 

Most of the good ones even store the records in that order so the cost overhead when retrieving the records is precisely zero nanoseconds. (After the few millisecond overhead of sorting the record when it gets placed for the first time.

Oh, and here is the really great part--if you never used nested notebooks, you would not lose that thousandth of a second we lose when our record gets shuffled to its new location.   

2. As for why beat the dead horse, yes, I will ask you why are you doing that? Why do you feel a burning need to have the people on my side be quiet and never express our opinions? We've been doing it for 10 years, and just are not stopping any time soon. 

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2 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

2. As for why beat the dead horse, yes, I will ask you why are you doing that? Why do you feel a burning need to have the people on my side be quiet and never express our opinions? We've been doing it for 10 years, and just are not stopping any time soon. 

That's exactly what I don't understand. If an app does not do what I need it to do, and developers have made it clear that this will not change in the future, I'll go and use a different app. Not complain about it for a decade. It's not like there are no apps out there that do it exactly the way you want.

Repeating the same thing over and over again won't get you anywhere - EN is not a democracy, it's a privately owned company, and that means the software will be developed as the owners decide.

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1 hour ago, chronistin said:

That's exactly what I don't understand. If an app does not do what I need it to do, and developers have made it clear that this will not change in the future, I'll go and use a different app. Not complain about it for a decade. It's not like there are no apps out there that do it exactly the way you want.

Repeating the same thing over and over again won't get you anywhere - EN is not a democracy, it's a privately owned company, and that means the software will be developed as the owners decide.

I've already addressed those issues. In this thread. Today.

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1 hour ago, DTLow said:

You seem to use the two terms interchangeably.

For sure, Evernote notes have a notebook field.  Is there some reason you think these are folders?

Because the two two terms are used interchangeably in the world of database software. One company calls them folders. Another calls them notebooks. Both things are the same. They are a hierarchical structure designed to emulate a traditional file cabinet structure. (Or, LOC book filing system...) Why Evernote decided to call them notebooks is not something I have no knowledge of. If you want to know why they call them notebooks, you could ask them. 

 

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