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Guest Greg F

Why Aren't Spaces Available in Personal Version?

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Guest Greg F

Why aren't spaces available in personal premium version ?   It seems like a much better way to organize notebooks instead of stacks.       

It seems like a better alternative to Quip now that you allow notebooks to be organized.   Does it fix the note system issues between devices and users?      

 

 

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I would like to see Spaces in the personal version as well. 

I think the next step of organization for my notes is a visual area where I can "play with" our notes, notebooks the way we want to. Pin them to the top, or spread the notes on a table and review them all together making and creating connections. 

The spaces might be coming close to my vision/needs therefore I hope it will (or a similar version of it) makes it to the personal accounts in the near future.

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We're working on it! Spaces are a pretty big architectural change (from both UX and technical perspectives), and work best for Teams - which is why we're launching for Business first. We're looking into bring Spaces to personal too - I'd love to have one for my family too. :)

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On 2/20/2018 at 8:19 PM, Leo Gong said:

We're looking into bring Spaces to personal too

Awesome news! Thanks for the reply. I hope it makes it to personal some way, form or shape.

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I was thinking about signing up for Evernote Business, however, it requires two users to start up--which I don't have another person to commit to using it for the price in mind.  I would be very pleased if you would offer Spaces to personal users, because that is exactly what I need to promote others to use Evernote.  I have been a user since 2011, and would love to have the option to work as a team.  The sooner you can get this rolled out to personal accounts the better!

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5 hours ago, N. Lum said:

I was thinking about signing up for Evernote Business, however, it requires two users to start up--which I don't have another person to commit to using it for the price in mind.

The Spaces feature does look useful.
Are there other reasons you'd consider switching the a Business Account?  The price increase is significant.

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20 hours ago, DTLow said:

The Spaces feature does look useful.
Are there other reasons you'd consider switching the a Business Account?  The price increase is significant.

That is why I have decided not to get Evernote Business and Spaces.  It is unfortunate that I cannot be a part of being on Spaces.

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On 2/20/2018 at 5:19 PM, Leo Gong said:

We're working on it! Spaces are a pretty big architectural change (from both UX and technical perspectives), and work best for Teams - which is why we're launching for Business first. We're looking into bring Spaces to personal too - I'd love to have one for my family too. :)

There's a technology that's been around since 1984 that would solve the same problem and have no UX learning curve at all - nested folders. Does Evernote continue to resist this proven organization system because "it wasn't invented here"? If not that reason, then why in the world?

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1 hour ago, jeffsf said:

There's a technology that's been around since 1984 that would solve the same problem and have no UX learning curve at all - nested folders.

Its not clear what problem you think would be solved.

"Nested folders" has been a long time concept, even before the use of computers.

When Evernote implemented their digital filing system, they used the name "Tag".  It includes an unlimited hierarchy (Win/Mac/Web)

A rose by any other name ...

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Tag hierarchy not implemented in phone and tablet versions. Therefore, not an adequate substitute for folders.

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On 2018-03-14 at 3:57 PM, jeffsf said:

Tag hierarchy not implemented in phone and tablet versions.

Good point.  I'd like to see tag hierarchy implemented on all device/platforms
This will complete the work Evernote started when they implemented this hierarchy

>>Therefore, not an adequate substitute for folders.

Just to be clear, the Tag feature is a method to quickly access notes per a specific subject(s).
Folders are not an adequate substitute for this.

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It is very annoying that as I posted my request for Spaces on the Premium side, every time I sign into my Web version of my account, I get this pop up asking if I want to have a free trial of Evernote Business.  As I mentioned, I would sign up on Evernote Business if you allowed just to sign up individually--not signing up with two accounts at once.  It is very annoying that you keep on asking me to "try" the free trial.  Is there a way that you can stop asking me to try the free trial, pleeeeaasseee?

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On 3/11/2018 at 11:55 PM, jeffsf said:

There's a technology that's been around since 1984 that would solve the same problem and have no UX learning curve at all - nested folders. Does Evernote continue to resist this proven organization system because "it wasn't invented here"? If not that reason, then why in the world?

Nested Folders may work great for Cloud systems that store large media files/data, but for building a information database, i think the Tagging system that we have in Evernote works much better.

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28 minutes ago, Sugeeth Krishnamoorthy said:
On 3/11/2018 at 2:25 PM, jeffsf said:

There's a technology that's been around since 1984 that would solve the same problem and have no UX learning curve at all - nested folders. Does Evernote continue to resist this proven organization system because "it wasn't invented here"? If not that reason, then why in the world?

Nested Folders may work great for Cloud systems that store large media files/data, but for building a information database, i think the Tagging system that we have in Evernote works much better.

To amplify this, there's a concept that's been around before well since 1984 (and hierarchical directories in Unix predate MS-DOS 2's directory system by at least 10 years) that has solved the problem of knowledge categorization, and also should have no user experience learning curve at all : keywords (or their equivalents: labels, categories, and Evernote tags, or even, if you will, adjectives in language). Evernote didn't invent tags, they just chose them as a way to organize notes, in preference to arbitrarily nested containers. They work really well, but it does seem that their thinking is changing on the concept of hierarchical storage. We'll see how that plays out; they seemingly have Spaces at the forefront now, and that's going to take some fleshing out.

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6 hours ago, jefito said:

To amplify this, there's a concept that's been around before well since 1984 (and hierarchical directories in Unix predate MS-DOS 2's directory system by at least 10 years) that has solved the problem of knowledge categorization, and also should have no user experience learning curve at all : keywords (or their equivalents: labels, categories, and Evernote tags, or even, if you will, adjectives in language). Evernote didn't invent tags, they just chose them as a way to organize notes, in preference to arbitrarily nested containers. They work really well, but it does seem that their thinking is changing on the concept of hierarchical storage. We'll see how that plays out; they seemingly have Spaces at the forefront now, and that's going to take some fleshing out.

If Spaces are about collaboration and dropping whatever into any and many given Spaces, then logically it sounds like tags on steroids to me (many to many relationship versus a tree structure).  Maybe the only way to present it physically is with an hierarchical display layer.

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12 hours ago, Sugeeth Krishnamoorthy said:

Nested Folders may work great for Cloud systems that store large media files/data, but for building a information database, i think the Tagging system that we have in Evernote works much better.

If Evernote wants to go exclusively with tags, then they need to fully implement the nesting system for tags. It's absent from the phone and tablet versions and also in some views on the Mac version. 

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1 hour ago, jeffsf said:

If Evernote wants to go exclusively with tags, then they need to fully implement the nesting system for tags. It's absent from the phone and tablet versions and also in some views on the Mac version. 

I make use of the tag hierarchy page (Mac) to organize my tags.  It's not a feature I use on a regular basis.

For my use, a standard naming convention is more useful than the hierarchy.  For example, instead of using tags red/green/blue, I use colour-red/colour-green/colour-blue.

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19 hours ago, CalS said:

If Spaces are about collaboration and dropping whatever into any and many given Spaces, then logically it sounds like tags on steroids to me (many to many relationship versus a tree structure).  Maybe the only way to present it physically is with an hierarchical display layer.

I got the idea that the future of spaces is a way to collect notes and notebooks into a container for purposes of organization and sharing. There was a hint that notebooks should be able to reside in multiple Spaces at a time (and I would hope that the same holds true for notes), but in the short term that doesn't seem to be the case. Again, I am not a business user, so I can't really follow how it works in the implementation, and I'm just going to have to wait for Spaces to be rolled out into the personal account arena.

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26 minutes ago, jefito said:

I got the idea that the future of spaces is a way to collect notes and notebooks into a container for purposes of organization and sharing. There was a hint that notebooks should be able to reside in multiple Spaces at a time (and I would hope that the same holds true for notes), but in the short term that doesn't seem to be the case. Again, I am not a business user, so I can't really follow how it works in the implementation, and I'm just going to have to wait for Spaces to be rolled out into the personal account arena.

Ditto.  Just opining the locigal vs physical structure.  Probably recovering from too may glasses of amber liquid the night before.  ;)

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Can the discussion topic be changed to "AREN'T"? Just being a little picky but it would be misleading to someone visiting the forum.

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On 2/20/2018 at 8:19 PM, Leo Gong said:

We're working on it! Spaces are a pretty big architectural change (from both UX and technical perspectives), and work best for Teams - which is why we're launching for Business first. We're looking into bring Spaces to personal too - I'd love to have one for my family too. :)

I have been thinking about leaving Evernote and using my free One Note which I am already paying for with office 365....

I trialed business, and it hijacked my email account so when I deactivated it I cant even access my premium account now.

I noticed there is no call support to help me and I have been sending endless tickets to help...

Microsoft has 24 hour call support for any issues...

Evernote should add spaces... I would consider staying with Evernote Premium with spaces and if someone will fix my account so I can access it, I just paid my renewal of 67.00 and to be honest with the current tech support of Evernote being chat email only and no spaces really does not stack up well against free ONE NOTE!!

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13 hours ago, Ron McCord said:

I have been thinking about leaving Evernote and using my free One Note which I am already paying for with office 365....

I trialed business, and it hijacked my email account so when I deactivated it I cant even access my premium account now.

I noticed there is no call support to help me and I have been sending endless tickets to help...

Microsoft has 24 hour call support for any issues...

Evernote should add spaces... I would consider staying with Evernote Premium with spaces and if someone will fix my account so I can access it, I just paid my renewal of 67.00 and to be honest with the current tech support of Evernote being chat email only and no spaces really does not stack up well against free ONE NOTE!!

If you are premium file a ticket to get your email sorted.

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On 4/7/2018 at 9:24 PM, Ron McCord said:

I have been thinking about leaving Evernote and using my free One Note which I am already paying for with office 365....

I trialed business, and it hijacked my email account so when I deactivated it I cant even access my premium account now.

I noticed there is no call support to help me and I have been sending endless tickets to help...

Microsoft has 24 hour call support for any issues...

Evernote should add spaces... I would consider staying with Evernote Premium with spaces and if someone will fix my account so I can access it, I just paid my renewal of 67.00 and to be honest with the current tech support of Evernote being chat email only and no spaces really does not stack up well against free ONE NOTE!!

Not trying to poke a dragon here, but I'm wondering if you are on Windows or Mac. The difference between OneNote and Evernote is a constant topic of conversation in our house and we have those who use both platforms who are on different sides of the fight on this.

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@N. Lum : Single license businesses is something we've talked about internally. At the end of the day it comes down to the what the definition of the purpose of "Evernote Business" is. Is it a tier for teams, or a tier for anyone that's using Evernote for work? There are folks working on an answer here :) . In the meantime I'd hold out for Spaces in personal and sign up for alpha / beta research on that topic when we ask for feedback.

@jeffsf / @DTLow / @jefito

Nesting / nb hierarchy is something I've written about before: https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/96180-nesting-multiple-notebooks-creating-sub-notebooks/?page=11#comment-496455 (tldr; we need it, it's in the plans to be added).

On the topic of tags: allowing notebooks and notes to live in multiple spaces is definitely where we're headed towards in the medium term. Once that's possible, this would solve for a significant amount of the "Tags" use case (ie. I want to be able to organize my content in multiple different ways), especially if you imagine a world where notebooks can be nested in multiple layers.

Would that make tags obsolete? Certainly not... one of the other use cases I've encountered with tags through talking to users, is that people use them as a way to add structured data to notes. ie. they'll mark a recipe note with "gluten", "french", "breakfast" as a way to categorize the note contents in various different ways. I think a better solution than tags here, would be to allow users to define properties for notes, ie. "gluten? true/false", "cuisine: french/italian/chinese", "meal: breakfast/lunch/dinner", allow users to restrict options (ie. set it as a dropdown field vs making it free text), and make these properties searchable / filterable / browsable. This would solve for a major pain point today with tags, which is that it's really easy to get multiple tags based on variants of a single string, e.g. "Mon", "Monday", and where it's not possible to group tags well (beyond that single layer of hierarchy).

This is stuff that's pretty far out though. There's a bunch to work through to get to a model of organization that's flexible, yet simple to use. A lot of what I shared above is likely to change as we think deeper about the problem and get feedback (so please don't yell at me if the above doesn't quite sound right to you, I'd love to listen to suggestions actually).

 

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9 hours ago, Leo Gong said:

Nesting / nb hierarchy is something I've written about before: https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/96180-nesting-multiple-notebooks-creating-sub-notebooks/?page=11#comment-496455 (tldr; we need it, it's in the plans to be added).

Just sitting here waiting patiently for Spaces to arrive in the personal edition, as I don't really want to hop up to the Business edition for awhile, only to have to hop off again (since Business is overkill for my use case)... :) 

9 hours ago, Leo Gong said:

On the topic of tags: allowing notebooks and notes to live in multiple spaces is definitely where we're headed towards in the medium term. Once that's possible, this would solve for a significant amount of the "Tags" use case (ie. I want to be able to organize my content in multiple different ways), especially if you imagine a world where notebooks can be nested in multiple layers.

I'm assuming that 'notebooks being nested in multiple layers' really means that a notebook can reside in multiple Spaces, since there's no such thing as 'layers' in Evernote, unless that's a generic term for 'things that can include notebooks' (i.e. stacks and Spaces, as far as I know currently, but maybe eventually other notebooks?). In any case, this scenario makes ample sense to me; a Space would be sort of a view (in the DB sense) on a collection of notebooks (assuming that you can nest a notebook that's shared to you in a Space, as you can in a Stack). Tags in a shared world are currently problematic (again, looking at it from the personal edition side of things; my tags are my tags, and your tags are yours, and they can overlap in terms of identical tags names even though they may mean the same thing), but in general, they should be able to flow across other containers freely, as they do currently inside a single account. Tags across multiple accounts is trickier, but that shouldn't be insurmountable.

9 hours ago, Leo Gong said:

Would that make tags obsolete? Certainly not... one of the other use cases I've encountered with tags through talking to users, is that people use them as a way to add structured data to notes. ie. they'll mark a recipe note with "gluten", "french", "breakfast" as a way to categorize the note contents in various different ways. I think a better solution than tags here, would be to allow users to define properties for notes, ie. "gluten? true/false", "cuisine: french/italian/chinese", "meal: breakfast/lunch/dinner", allow users to restrict options (ie. set it as a dropdown field vs making it free text), and make these properties searchable / filterable / browsable. This would solve for a major pain point today with tags, which is that it's really easy to get multiple tags based on variants of a single string, e.g. "Mon", "Monday", and where it's not possible to group tags well (beyond that single layer of hierarchy).

Interesting concept: attributed tags. I kinda like that (and I think that other users will, too, if for no other reason than just having another mechanism for organizing their Everdata). Of course you can simulate already that using segmented tag names (e.g.: "meal-french", "meal-italian", "meal-chinese"), but the value restrictions would be useful. "gluten:true/false" is already handled via tag: and -tag:, but still). Sooooo, I guess that means you'll need to update the search language; when you get around to that, I and several thousand of my fellow forum-goers might have a few suggestions for other improvements... :) 

Truly, though, being able to cross-categorize notes via tags as they exist today is something that I find very useful, so much so that I don't feel any pressing need for notebook hierarchies. I don't even structure my tags all that assiduously (it's kinda hopeless anyhow since tags can mean different things in different contexts; there's no single hierarchy that can hold them).

9 hours ago, Leo Gong said:

This is stuff that's pretty far out though. There's a bunch to work through to get to a model of organization that's flexible, yet simple to use. A lot of what I shared above is likely to change as we think deeper about the problem and get feedback (so please don't yell at me if the above doesn't quite sound right to you, I'd love to listen to suggestions actually).

Hey, this is good stuff, and it's nice to have you sharing it even if it's early in the design / implementation process. I know how this works. I'm not sure that there is an actual right or wrong here; maybe better vs worse is closer. In any case, I (and I'm sure others) appreciate the feedback, and look forward to seeing how it rolls out.

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4 hours ago, Leo Gong said:

I think a better solution than tags here, would be to allow users to define properties for notes, ie. "gluten? true/false", "cuisine: french/italian/chinese", "meal: breakfast/lunch/dinner", allow users to restrict options (ie. set it as a dropdown field vs making it free text)

I like this structured tag concept and implemented the relationship on my Mac using scripting.  
Thanks for the syntax idea; it's an improvement over my simple hard coding.

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23 minutes ago, Comebo3 said:

how to delete my comment?

You'll see selections at the bottom of your post.5ace1addb25ad_ScreenShot2018-04-11at07_24_40.png.91bb00476e4677ce2168a5f526e0d31c.png

Options will give you a delete selection.

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15 hours ago, Leo Gong said:

one of the other use cases I've encountered with tags through talking to users, is that people use them as a way to add structured data to notes. ie. they'll mark a recipe note with "gluten", "french", "breakfast" as a way to categorize the note contents in various different ways. I think a better solution than tags here, would be to allow users to define properties for notes, ie. "gluten? true/false", "cuisine: french/italian/chinese", "meal: breakfast/lunch/dinner", allow users to restrict options (ie. set it as a dropdown field vs making it free text), and make these properties searchable / filterable / browsable. This would solve for a major pain point today with tags, which is that it's really easy to get multiple tags based on variants of a single string, e.g. "Mon", "Monday", and where it's not possible to group tags well (beyond that single layer of hierarchy).

Love it! 

This would open a lot of possibilities and a great way of organizing and accessing notes. 

14 hours ago, jefito said:

Hey, this is good stuff, and it's nice to have you sharing it even if it's early in the design / implementation process. I know how this works. I'm not sure that there is an actual right or wrong here; maybe better vs worse is closer. In any case, I (and I'm sure others) appreciate the feedback, and look forward to seeing how it rolls out.

Agreed 100%. Feels great to have this kind of content, response from Evernote employee. Keep it coming, definitely appreciated.

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19 hours ago, Leo Gong said:

I think a better solution than tags here, would be to allow users to define properties for notes, ie. "gluten? true/false", "cuisine: french/italian/chinese", "meal: breakfast/lunch/dinner", allow users to restrict options (ie. set it as a dropdown field vs making it free text), and make these properties searchable / filterable / browsable. This would solve for a major pain point today with tags, which is that it's really easy to get multiple tags based on variants of a single string, e.g. "Mon", "Monday", and where it's not possible to group tags well (beyond that single layer of hierarchy).

Hmmm, if we think there is confusion today with folks trying to structure their data....  When do I use the drop down, when do I use a tag.  Now did I put that tag in the properties drop down or the tag field, or both?  Hey, I need more than one property drop down per note!  ;)  In the recipe example anyway.

OTOH, the idea of a set of user defined properties is stellar, different axis than notebooks or tags.  Might address the age old archive conundrum, or work/home notes, provided the search engine is in lock step, that is a property drop down selector in search just like Any/All.   

BTW, Ctrl+Alt+T does a pretty good job of preventing tag dups, if one uses it.  

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On 4/10/2018 at 7:30 PM, jefito said:

I'm assuming that 'notebooks being nested in multiple layers' really means that a notebook can reside in multiple Spaces, since there's no such thing as 'layers' in Evernote, unless that's a generic term for 'things that can include notebooks'

Actually I was referring to allowing more layers of hierarchy in the future, ie. notebooks inside of notebooks with the additional ability to have notes / notebooks live in multiple containers. :) 

On 4/10/2018 at 7:30 PM, jefito said:

Of course you can simulate already that using segmented tag names (e.g.: "meal-french", "meal-italian", "meal-chinese"), but the value restrictions would be useful. "gluten:true/false" is already handled via tag: and -tag:, but still).

Actually it's great you bring this up. We've definitely seen our advanced users take advantage of segmented tag names (just like how they use that for grouping notebooks too). It's exactly examples of this that we look at, and try to figure out - how do we make this kind of "tip & trick" something more intuitive for the common user? Having note properties or something like that was one of the potential solutions that shook out as a result. I think there's a lot that can be learned from advanced users that have really figured out "workarounds / hacks / implementations" to get the most of out Evernote, and then productizing these ideas.

 

On 4/10/2018 at 7:30 PM, jefito said:

Hey, this is good stuff, and it's nice to have you sharing it even if it's early in the design / implementation process. I know how this works. I'm not sure that there is an actual right or wrong here; maybe better vs worse is closer. In any case, I (and I'm sure others) appreciate the feedback, and look forward to seeing how it rolls out.

Thanks for the good responses everyone! Getting some early validation on this idea is really helpful - we'll be reaching out more with surveys / betas etc once we're further along.

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14 hours ago, Leo Gong said:

Actually I was referring to allowing more layers of hierarchy in the future, ie. notebooks inside of notebooks with the additional ability to have notes / notebooks live in multiple containers. :) 

OK, got it. I sort of have this view that a note or notebook might be relevant to more than one space and it's good to know that that will be part of it. My need for structuring notebooks in a hierarchy is really pretty low, and I'd probably not use Spaces to do that, except maybe to replace the small number of stacks that I use.

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On 2/20/2018 at 8:19 PM, Leo Gong said:

We're working on it! Spaces are a pretty big architectural change (from both UX and technical perspectives), and work best for Teams - which is why we're launching for Business first. We're looking into bring Spaces to personal too - I'd love to have one for my family too. :)

Will renew my premium once Spaces is part of Evernote Premium.... I do not want Business or have multiple user scenarios!!

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54 minutes ago, ronmccord said:

I do not want Business or have multiple user scenarios!!

What do you see as the value of Spaces for your  use?

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