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NightStalker

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Everything posted by NightStalker

  1. @Marcus: once again, we really do appreciate you coming on here and interacting with us. But I'd like to take issue with a couple of your points: 1. You state that "In any case, the majority of Evernote users are now using Yosemite.". How do you know this? According to the IT department at the University I work for (I'm a medico and also teach at the Medical School), which is a large uni that has over 40,000 students, and thousands of staff, most of those using Macs are staying on Mavericks. And even though the initial uptake of Yosemite was higher than on Mavericks, there have been a lot of users who have "Time Machined" back to Mavericks due to intense dislike of Yosemite. Also, the Yosemite Mail app is seriously broken, especially when trying to work with Exchange servers, which also caused a lot to revert to Mavericks. So I don't think you can assume that "In any case, the majority of Evernote users are now using Yosemite." I think that may be a false assumption. 2. Yes, the new version DOES look terrible running on Mavericks or earlier. Especially when you consider that it DID look great before. And your following of the Apple dictates does NOT need to be so selective - if you WERE following them, then where has the configurable toolbar gone? That's a MAC OS X standard too. You say that "Apple sets the design direction and all apps must follow." But you DON'T have to follow into obscurity. See the next point: 3. For an example of how an interface can be beautiful, extremely legible, totally customizable, and an absolute delight to work in, check out Curio, from Zengobi (www.zengobi.com). It is fully compatible with Yosemite, but has maintained its own unique "flavour" and is a joy to work in. And their toolbar is also customizable. Evernote could choose to go this route and maintain a brand identity, instead of being just another grey/white anonymous nothing utility. As has already been stated many times (yeah, yeah, I know we're a bunch of whingers) - if you had many or most of the UI elements customizable under Preferences and Toolbar Configuration, then all these complaints would go away. And more serious matters such as the "Untitled" notes, the line break issues, slow syncs, etc could be concentrated on. But seriously, your interaction is really appreciated, and yes, I take it as a privilege that you and Jack do take the time and trouble to listen to us.
  2. @Limegreen (irony in that name given all the complaints about lack of it) Of course, your opinion has just as much validity as everyone else's opinions, but you do seem to be in a minority of about one (maybe two - I think somebody else posted that they didn't mind the new interface). But why should people have to depend on what is behind Evernote to make it legible at all, especially all those who have not upgraded to Yosemite? And what if the object behind Evernote is something like the Mail app? Even Marcus and Jack (see posts above, on this thread) have admitted that there are problems and that they will address them. But what they propose is only tinkering around the edges of the basic problem. The basic problem being that they changed something that was good, and broke it. And they have taken away or hidden everyday functions (like Email Note) buried in menus, while pushing the "New Chat" button at everyone, even though a tiny minority (I'd guess) would use it. To reiterate once more - they should make the UI as customizable as possible, even to the extent of "skinning" it, and definitely make the toolbar customizable, and if they did that, then all these complaints about the interface would simply go away. I've been on these forums a long time, having been an Evernote Premium user since almost day 1, with multiple accounts. But I haven't seen an outpouring of complaints about a new release as profuse as we are seeing on here. And with so many first-time posters who have taken the trouble to find the forum, sign up, and post. Virtually ALL of those posts are very negative about the new version, while you appear to like it. And you are perfectly entitled to like it. It's just that on balance, the score seems to be many, many on the "dislike" side, with you and maybe one other on the "like" side of the equation. Each to their own. I should repeat my disclaimer - I haven't upgraded and don't intend to, and my comments are based on what is being said in here, plus numerous screenshots people have posted on various threads. I also am back running Mavericks, as I did upgrade one iMac to Yosemite and hated it (the appearance, plus, more importantly, what they've done to the Mail app which I use, along with the well-documented WiFi issues) so I reverted using Time Machine.
  3. I guess it's all down to personal taste in regard to Yosemite, but personally, I hate Yosemite. The whole translucency thing has me baffled - why the hell would I want to see THROUGH something I'm working on? And why should I have to change my background to stop it from bleeding through? Yes - i tried Yosemite. I also turned translucency off. I still hated it (especially what they've done to the Mail app, and those dreadful WiFi problems, not fixed in the latest update). So I reverted to Mavericks (I'd upgraded on one non-critical iMac to have a play), using Time Machine. All went well, and now I will not be upgrading to Yosemite at all. Just why Evernote slavishly follows Apple in terms of design etc in regard to Yosemite, but they stubbornly refuse to follow the Mac standard and give us a configurable toolbar (Windows version has it), is a mystery to me. They know better. We will take what we're given. Even though the UI stinks. As has been suggested by many on various threads, if Evernote gave us all the options to change the appearance, theme, configure the toolbar, etc etc - then ALL of these complaints would simply disappear, and we could then concentrate on matters of function, such as notes disappearing, notes being uneditable, notes losing their titles and becoming "Untitled" - etc! I'm getting tired of complaining about stuff that they've changed, and even more irritatingly, stuff that they either remove or hide for no reason, when it used to work perfectly. I have personally been responsible for several dozen Premium accounts on my recommendation since I became one of the very first Evernote users, but currently, I'm advising people NOT to use Evernote, and to go with OneNote instead. It ain't quite there yet, but Microsoft are rapidly catching up. But then, Evernote are probably just as tired of reading my complaints anyway, so that must balance out, I guess
  4. Well, now we're getting UI designers creating accounts just to air their voices about how bad this design is. Will that make Evernote actually listen? Doubt it. But to re-iterate the point made by Grumpy - if Evernote were to give us all the control we need to change the appearance, colours, skin, layout, and yes, the toolbar - then ALL of these complaints would disappear. And we could concentrate on functionality, such as those who are reporting that notes take ages to appear, note titles disappear, notes are not editable, or worse still - notes getting apparently trashed, etc. THOSE are the complaints that need to be addressed urgently - but are being swamped by the complaints about the UI and the complete lack of ability to change it or customize it.
  5. How can it "one of the best looking apps out there" if it actually doesn't HAVE a "look" of its own? It used to - the green and dark grey look was distinctively Evernote. Now it looks completely anonymous, hard on the eyes going by numerous screenshots, has translucency (give me strength - why would I want to see THROUGH what I'm working on?) etc etc. And your comment about people having no business designing apps and don't know good design when they see it has to be the height of patronising arrogance! If the users - you know, those who actually USE the program - find the design to be lacking, then it is bad design. Period. You cannot tell somebody that a two-and a half wheeled bicycle that is 12" tall is good design, just because you say it is and it conforms to the design code for 12" bicycles! It may look OK to some people, but it's completely unusable. If you see the analogy...
  6. OK - appreciate the response, thanks Marcus. I have to admit that I'm really sorry you're not going back to what was such a recognizable colour scheme - it's even here all over this forum. And in your app icon. And I happen to like 3D buttons and complex icons with lots of colours... And on my Twitter feed, the reaction to the new version is very mixed. Lots of complaints about it being slow, a LOT who don't want Chat and who want to get rid of the Chat button, etc etc - very similar to what's been said in here many times. Of course, there are some who DO like it, and there is a heck of a lot of spam - Evernote accessories, competitions, etc etc. I'm not sure that too many constructive comments can be made in 120 characters on Twitter - but yes, you're right, they're users too. I'd suggest, though, that they are a bit less engaged with the company than most of your long term inhabitants of these forums. Keep up the discussions, and yes, we would LOVE much earlier chances to give feedback - but only if there was some likelihood of the feedback not being ignored. I'm not saying for a moment that every suggestion or comment has to be implemented - of course it doesn't. But at least use the collective wisdom and comments from people like Grumpy, Metrodon, Burgers, etc etc to help steer the company direction, and not just go your own merry way regardless. In other words, it needs to be a meaningful two-way discussion, not just a token one.
  7. Excellent thoughts and points, Marcus - thank you. One point from a complete non-programmer: if every function in a program has an associated button, then how hard is it to do a customizable toolbar? On almost every Mac app that I have and use, the principle of customizing the toolbars is the same. It looks the same, it works the same way on all the apps. Right-click/Customise Toolbar - etc. It's even on Firefox that I'm using to read this forum. And the point is - Evernote USED to have it! But it was taken away. Given that Evernote seem to be following Apple's dictates regarding things like translucency for Yosemite (!), why does the company seem so reluctant to follow what is virtually a Mac standard by having a configurable toolbar? And even more to the point - although the code is different, the principle isn't, but the Windows version DOES have a configurable toolbar. I appreciate your perspective, and I take your points from your experience of working the Microsoft Office apps. But I'd suggest that in Evernote, the list of options (to go under Preferences) and the list of functions (to go under Configure Toolbar) would be WAY less than the amazing number there are in the Office apps. Good to hear you're open to discussion about it -maybe, just hopefully, this may progress to the point where Evernote seriously considers giving us back the customizing abilities - the more the merrier. And as Grumpy pointed out on another thread, if we had the ability to customize most of everything from toolbars to colour schemes and fonts, then most of the complaints would simply disappear. And everyone could then concentrate solely on matters of actual functionality. And that may make Grumpy less grumpy!
  8. Grumpy - you've hit the nail right on its head with that. As you say, you and I have been bitching in tandem for at least the last couple of years, and it seems to no avail. They may say they're "listening", but we don't actually seem to have achieved any significant changes. If they'd only just stop with this idiotic attitude that THEIR idea of what the app should look like and WHAT buttons we see is for our own good and can't be changed, then all should be much better. I just don't understand this deep-seated reluctance to let us tailor our own work environments. Even less do I understand it when configurable toolbars are a fundamental feature of almost all Mac OS X apps. They seem to be slavishly following Apple's dictates in terms of Yosemite and its silly translucency, but they won't follow the Mac standard and let us configure our toolbars! Options - THAT is what we need. As you say, correctly - if we had the options to configure the toolbar, change the colours, change the layout, the contrast, etc etc - then most of the chorus of complaints would just go away. Then - and only then - would we be able to concentrate on matters related purely to functionality. And your idea of bringing the users - especially those who have been on these forums for as long as you and many of the others have - into the ideas, development, and testing phases MUCH earlier, would also prevent a lot of the blowback they seem to get every time. So - options (lots) and early feedback from users. Any money to bet that they would even consider those?
  9. That's half the problem, Gaz - those using Macs CAN'T customize the toolbars! Despite configurable toolbars being a de facto Mac OS standard.
  10. Hi Marcus Like JMichael, I really appreciate you interacting on here, even though we may disagree on various things. I'm also aware that you have to represent the company line, so even if you agree with some of our complaints, you may not be able to say so. The idea of presenting us with a list of proposed changes is excellent - why not do it before each major upgrade, and get feedback on them BEFORE you push out the upgrade and then cop a heap of complaints? Are you going to bring back your signature colour scheme of green and grey? Or are you going to stick with the completely bland, no-brand version with grey, grey, and more grey? 50 Shades of Grey, anyone? (Somebody had to say it!) What about coloured icons, you know, like they used to be? And as JMichael pointed out, and as I keep banging on about - what about that configurable toolbar? If the Windows version can have one, why not the Mac version, especially when toolbar configurability is virtually a Mac standard? Good to see some response to the points made on here. But more please... (yeah, yeah - I know I'm never satisfied)
  11. Grumpy - I don't think it's the colour cheme per se that is the problem for most (or the LACK of colour). It's how that affects the usability. The light grey text on blinding white background, the translucency thing (which I personally hate with a passion) that makes things illegible depending on one's desktop wallpaper background, the inability to customize that toolbar and get rid of the Chat button, etc etc. THOSE are what most people are complaining about - not just the (lack of) colour scheme per se or for its own sake. It's how it seems to be affecting the usability. I agree with you that there is a chorus of complaint every time EN brings out any major changes, BUT: 1. Perhaps that is because the changes really ARE retrograde steps, and NOT what users want? We're being told what we're getting. 2. On this occasion, there seems to be a much bigger chorus of disapproval, to the point where there is an amazing number of first-time posters finding this forum, signing up, and posting their concerns. WAY more than we've seen in the past. Surely that should tell Evernote something? They stuffed up Penultimate by trying to get too smart and foist massive changes on users - and rightly got severe blow-back because of it. I no longer use Penultimate - I use Notes Plus, although UpWord is catching my eye. The blowback they're getting over this new version of Evernote core app seems to me to be much more severe than they've had in the past. I checked out OneNote a couple of days ago, and I have to say that it is getting there. It's not quite there yet, but the way Microsoft (and I'm no Microsoft lover) seem to be progressing OneNote, almost every update adding REAL functionality, it won't be much longer before it is a real Evernote killer. I don't imagine for a moment that Evernote is going to come crashing down - but the tech world is full of precedents where companies have not listened to what their users actually want, or say. And have gone under as a result. I think this new version is just symptomatic of Evernote's complete disdain for what its users want. No options, no configurability, no way to change the appearance, and removing things that work(ed). So while I haven't personally moved to v6, so I can't honestly answer the original poster's question, I can say that the numerous complaints about the interface create one factor that is stopping me from upgrading. I don't like it, from what I read. And of course, your point about functionality is spot on - but the interface can and DOES affect functionality.
  12. Once again, I'm gobsmacked by just how many first-time posters have been motivated to find this forum, sign up, and post. And every one of them pointing out the problems with this "upgrade". Surely that should cause concern at Evernote HQ, that they have taken a wrong turn, and are not listening to what their users actually WANT? Somebody at said HQ really needs to accept that they have royally screwed up - they stuffed Penultimate (which I used to use, but no longer do), and now they've continued to stuff up Evernote itself. Jack, Marcus, everbody - please listen! Take a step back, accept that you've got it wrong, that Evernote is NOT a collaborative work or business tool exclusively, for probably the majority of users, and that this new interface is total cr@p. Fire your interface design team, fire all those who think that blindly following the trend to being "cool" with translucency etc, just because Apple said so, is a good idea. It would be interesting to find out how many of those who have upgraded to Yosemite actually have translucency turned off. Personally, I completely fail to see why anyone would want to see THROUGH something that you're working on. But the problem seems to be that we are given no choice - this fits with Phil Libin's view that we shouldn't be given choices. And that is a BAD, REALLY bad idea. People LIKE to have choices, we like to be able to create our personalized way of working and the appearance of software. Why do you think "skins" are so popular for so many apps? And who's bright idea was it to do away with Evernote's green, which has become a symbolic recognition factor for the brand? Brilliant..! That's like Cadbury's Chocolate suddenly deciding to do away with the colour purple! To all those who have taken the trouble to come on here and post your thoughts, keep it up. The "apology" from Evernote about the stuff-up of Penultimate was the result of massive user blowback. The core Evernote app now needs the same treatment!
  13. I wonder if the Evernote team will heed the comments posted here by so many first-timers? There seems to be a larger than usual turnout of new posters who have taken the trouble to search out the forum and join it in order to complain about several things, especially the appearance, of this new version. Surely the impact this is obviously having on all these new posters won't be ignored by Evernote? I mean, those of us who have been whinging - er, sorry - constructively contributing - for quite some time now, sort of get used to being ignored. Boy, cry, wolf, etc etc. But all these first-time posters must have good reason to be motivated to come here and post.... Was Jack serious when he said that all posts were read and "listened to"?
  14. I wouldn't hold your breath waiting for that, Patrick. Many of us have been asking for the return of a configurable toolbar since it disappeared over 2 years ago, to no avail. The ability to get rid of buttons that we don't want, to insert buttons that we do want (eg Email note, Print, etc) and to place them at different points on the toolbar is something that was removed for no apparent reason, and with no explanation as to why.
  15. Marcus - when you say that the transparent (I assume you mean translucent) sidebar is not negotiable - does that mean it is translucent under Mavericks as well? Or is it only translucent running under Yosemite? I haven't upgraded to Yosemite (well, I did on one machine, but quickly reverted via Time Machine once I discovered all the problems), and I haven't upgraded to Evernote v6.
  16. OK - I know I sound like a reactionary who just doesn't like anything new (not true, the opposite actually). But just WHY would anyone actually WANT to see the background bleed through a little? Just because someone on the Yosemite team thought it would look "cool"? If I have a stack of real paper notes, I sure don't want the paper to be translucent so I can see the note underneath, or the table top! I just want to see what I'm focused on. And Evernote (and all other apps) should be the same. There is absolutely no point in introducing translucency just because it may look "cool". And your point about legibility - you say that "this kind of thing is very subjectivce": but surely, legibility should NOT be subjective, should it? I mean - it needs to be legible to everyone who isn't actually blind. Those with 20-year old eye resolution should be able to dial up smaller fonts if they wish, while those of us who are more "mature" (ahem) should be able to see everything with no hint of subjectivity - it should be black and white - literally!
  17. Thanks Jack - even though we disagree on much of the direction Evernote seems to be heading, we really appreciate you responding like this, and so rapidly too. Thank you One point about your response - just because the configurable toolbar issue has been around for over 2 years doesn't mean that we don't still want one. Many do - every time it is mentioned on numerous different threads, it gets followed by several "+1" posts. I fail to see WHY we can't have one - I want to get rid of the Chat button, as I will never use it. I want to add an "Email Note" button and a "Print" button, as I use those all the time. And I want to move the buttons around to suit my own peculiar way of working, using spaces and flexible spaces, just like you can on 99% of all other apps that run on Mac OS X. I appreciate your list of reasons to upgrade - but that screenshot of the low-contrast text on JMichaels' post is enough to stop me. And the whole translucency thing. Is that still present even under Mavericks? Can I turn it off completely from within the app's settings? Mavericks doesn't have that System Preferences setting that turns off the transparency. And thanks again for responding - I just wish those further up the decision-making tree and who decide on Evernote's direction etc would listen to what so many are saying on these forums.
  18. That's a system preference setting in Yosemite, which is not present in Mavericks or earlier. Does the new Evernote have the stupid transparency thing happening when running under Mavericks? I'm not upgrading, so I can't check for myself.
  19. Oh sheesh! Going by that screenshot of JMichaels' above, there is no way I'm going to upgrade. "Text accessibility experts"??? Surely you're kidding? Is it April already? And what IS it with all this translucency/transparency nonsense? That alone is one of the reasons that I am not upgrading from Mavericks to Yosemite - the other (and main one) being that they have badly broken the Mail app. I won't go off-piste and discuss that here. If I have a window at the front, I want to read it. I don't want to see the ghost of the wallpaper behind it, and I most certainly don't want to see another app's window full of text ghosted behind what I'm trying to read. Does this upgrade bring back "Email Note" as an easy to use, one-click option? I didn't think so. Does it give us options, to turn off Context, Chat, and Translucency? Ones that actually, really, turn them right OFF - as in "GONE"? Don't think so. Does it give us back a configurable toolbar? Nope - didn't think so. So give me one reason WHY I should even think about upgrading to v6? It seems to be just adding more things I don't want and don't like, while not fixing or bringing back the things that I do want. This is getting very depressing - I checked out OneNote yesterday. It's still not up to what Evernote used to be, but it's getting closer....
  20. After watching that talk (very LONG talk) from Andrew Sinkov referred to above, I go the sinkov - er, sorry - SINKING feeling that Evernote is becoming more and more what I do NOT want. It worries me when he says that from surveys (much of which was done "internally") they found that 70% of users use Evernote for work. Well, duh - yes, a lot of us do. But I did not hear him say how many people use it for personal stuff - and the whole point is that they are not mutually exclusive. The 70% who use it for work would include a large proportion of those who also use it for personal stuff. In other words, many users would use it for both. I do. The other thing I find very depressing is this idea that seems to be all-pervasive that work MUST involve collaboration. Mine doesn't, and I'm sure a lot of others have no need for collaboration. We don't all work in corporate environments or Silicon Valley type think tanks. If Jack or anyone is reading this ongoing discussion, please PLEASE convey the idea of splitting Evernote into two - Evernote Private and Evernote Business. As I have suggested on another post, Private would not have Chat, or Context, etc. While Business would. But they both need to retain the ability to email a note, the ability to do a presentation from multiple notes, to configure that blasted toolbar, - in other words, all the things that either have been or are getting broken. You can't just put out a program that creates a new paradigm, one of remembering everything, of becoming an extension of your memory, etc, as Evernote originally did, and to which Evernote owes its success - and then CHANGE THE PARADIGM! That is what seems to be happening. And nobody in the hierarchy of Evernote is listening. Yes, those who post here on your forums are a tiny proportion of your user base - but statistically, we would be fairly representative of the type of user and the thoughts of those users that make up the silent majority. But you are not listening - or if you are, you are ignoring us. You have VERY long term users, you have extremely prolific posters, you have beta testers - all complaining and expressing negative thoughts about what you're doing. But all are ignored. HEY EVERNOTE - LISTEN UP BEFORE IT'S TOO LATE AND YOU HEAD OFF IN THE WRONG DIRECTION..!!!
  21. What a great post, Viv. But unfortunately I think you're right, in that the message just doesn't seem to be getting through to the upper management. They just keep blindly pushing on down their own path, despite many people being able to see the warning signs that Evernote just may disappear up its own ass. I think it's called "bottom-up programming" If they really DO insist on this never-ending quest for shiny new trinkets at the expense of functionality, then they really need to consider splitting the apps into Evernote Private and Evernote Work, or something similar. Private would have absolutely no need for Work Chat, or for Context, for example. And BOTH versions still need that sorely-missed configurable toolbar that was taken away. All we poor punters can do is to keep banging on about it, and when we have voices such as yours and other beta testers added to the chorus, then maybe - just maybe - sounds of the insurrection may just reach the deaf ears of top management...! Hah...!
  22. Now that WOULD be a good idea, Jeff. A lot of feature requests (or complaints about specific features) are scattered through so many different threads, many of which are actually about something else such as the ones you mention for example. A Feature Request area would serve to focus on those things. Oh, and by the way - I hate black turtle necks... (Yes, I do know you were kidding) And I'd better shut up, as I'm cluttering up my own thread!
  23. Morning Jeff - and fair comment about pinning etc. And I didn't know that bumping was a specific no-no. Apologies for that blooper. My concern was (and still is) that so many people post to the forum simply by creating a new post, and hence a new thread, with such alarming rapidity that an individual thread just slides down and off the page onto the next page. And if most people are like me, I never scroll to page 2 (same with Google searches - if it ain't on page 1, I just don't see it). I'd also venture to suggest that most people don't use the search function, judging by the number of posters who start new threads all on topics which are covered in other threads. The main reason I started this one was that many people - including moi - have brought up this thorny issue of the non-configurable toolbar on the Mac in numerous different conversations on different threads, none of which was specifically about this issue. So I thought it worthwhile to gather comments in one thread focussing on it. My bottom-line question though is why the toolbar on the Mac client remains non-configurable? The point being, that in earlier versions of Evernote, it WAS configurable, but for some misguided reason that ability was removed. Maybe if it was reintroduced, there would be far less complaints about Chat buttons that people don't use, etc, ?
  24. Haven't heard back about pinning this topic, yet. Not sure of timezone differences though... Is it considered bad form to bump this back up the list, rather than let it slide down into oblivion, do you think?
  25. Indeed, JM - as a user, I WANT to "do the work of figuring things out" - to suit the way I work. It is not the "lazy way out". That's where I think Libin has it oh so wrong - he is dumbing everyone down. If his logic is correct, then Apple and almost every other provider of apps has it wrong, while he is right. I've messaged GBarry to see if he would consider pinning this thread so that it doesn't simply get pushed down the list, and that way we can try to get discussion on this topic all in the one place.
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