jeffsf

DTLow,

I am not an expert on internet businesses and have not crystal ball. As I thought my note made clear, this is an impression, or a guess if you wish. I haven't seen any significant feature changes in years, and this internet search makes clear that there are questions about how well the company is doing, but I hope they will succeed. I'm a long-time premium user and have found many aspects of Evernote admirable. At the same time, they have never been very responsive to appeals to give users more choice  in configuring the interface and organizational structure, from font sizes to folders.

Please don't think I'm an enemy, just someone who wonders, based on the app update history and articles like those you will find here: https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-1-d&q=evernote+staff+layoffs.

Cordially,
Jeff Byers

I think Evernote may be having a hard time staying afloat, which would explain their lack of responsiveness and their failure to make improvements to the app. I’m beginning to explore alternatives like OneNote and Devonthink. 

Yes! PLEASE! More important than any of the new bells and whistles. As a general principle it would be great if Evernote staff did a thorough review of usability before they embark on any feature changes. 

Yeah, this is one of the obvious improvements that gets pushed aside for new "features." It's too bad, because it is a fundamental usability failure.

On 3/11/2018 at 12:26 PM, DTLow said:

 

I'm not sure where you're getting your information from.  I've seen no indication from Evernote that they're interested in implementing a Notebook hierarchy.

Evernote did implement tag hierarchy (Win/Mac/Web) for Personal Accounts, but not on the Business side.

 

See https://discussion.evernote.com/topic/96180-nesting-multiple-notebooks-creating-sub-notebooks/?do=findComment&comment=496455

On 3/5/2018 at 5:17 PM, mtanne said:

Agreed.  Technically as you've described a "pseudo notebook" is simply a label.
In fact, technically, any folder hierarchy is simply a set of labels in a directory.
The only difference is that labels/tags permit multiple membership. so in the end Tags is a much more flexible mechanism.

You can "move" a whole set of notes to a different notebook by retagging them, OR have them show up in a different notebook by adding a new tag.

Some people visualize best as folders others prefer to search for a tag. I do both.
See ALL the notes in a category and know it's all of them (archival)
Fastest path to my note on a topic. (targeted search)

Gmail is an excellent and widely understood implementation of "folders as labels" that demonstrates these principles well, and has implemented search, folders and tagging quite effectively.

Good explanation. I have done much the same, and then, because the remaining tags are still many in number, I have organized them into alpha master tags. All the tags that begin with the letter A are under a master AAA tag, those that begin with B under a master BBB tag, and so on. Your approach is creative and, as you say, makes the best use of the tool we have. Still, one can hope for a future when the hierarchy is built into the system rather than created by the users as an add-on.

On 3/3/2018 at 9:45 AM, DTLow said:

Confirmed, tag hierarchies are not represented in IOS, and also don't appear in all menus on Win/Mac.

I suspect it will be the same if a notebook hierarchy is implemented.

Still, I find the tag hierarchy page (Mac) useful for organization my tags.

Yes, I also find tags useful. The main utility of tags is for cross referencing and to make searches easier. However, the nested tags can add another layer of utility. The issues with that are [1] the afore-mentioned failure to implement them on iOS and [2] the laboriousness of organizing them. With folders, one creates a folder inside another folder and puts the desired info in it. With tags, one creates a tag in the master list, then drags it across all the other tags to the appropriate master tag, then does a search for appropriate notes, which may be hard to find because they are not yet organized, then tags them. It's doable, but much less convenient. If one uses tags as a cross-reference and search tool, there are likely to be many of them, making them harder to browse. Also, there is no hierarchy in the pull-down menu at the top of the notes list, as there is for stacks and notebooks. One has to switch from notes to tags to browse the tags, so one goes back and forth, back and forth. All this churn makes Evernote more difficult to use. If there were hierarchical folders built into the interface, life would be so much easier. 

All that said, it is enormously encouraging to see a sign that Evernote is no longer stonewalling on this issue. So we can live in hope.

On 1/5/2016 at 2:20 PM, JMichaelTX said:

Tags can be organized in hierarchies (meaning Parent-Child relationship).  So we can achieve the appearance of Notebooks and sub-notebooks,

Yes, but...

• Tag hierarchies are not implemented on iOS, so they become useless there as a substitute for a notebook hierarchy.
• It is not possible, I think, to create a new tag already nested under another, so creating a tag hierarchy is laborious.

It's stunning that such a basic feature would be missing. I just did a business card where the website address was not recognized. The resulting note is useless.

2 hours ago, estevancarlos said:

I'm realizing now that the clients for Evernote might vary in many ways. I do have the ability to view children tags of parent tags in my version of Evernote on OSX.

Right, but not on iOS, making tags a non-starter as the mail organizational system.

Flier,

All well said and convincing. And in a world of flamers, I appreciate the measured and useful tone of your comments. I confess to getting worked up and being less than my best self on line sometimes. Your reply is a reminder to take a deep breath. Thanks.

7 minutes ago, DTLow said:

That's true; the tag hierarchy is not represented in IOS (and other platforms)
It's also not shown in various lists on my Mac

I've managed to cope with the lack of hierarchy in Notebooks and Tags

I applaud you for being able to do so, but the phrase "cope with" says volumes. At their best, programs make things easier, rather than presenting challenges to be coped with. I've been waiting, fingers crossed for a long time, but now I'm moving away from Evernote, or rather, making it an active but far less central part of my work flow.

As observed by several people, Evernote has been very consistent (one might say obstinate and not particularly customer-focused) in not implementing a hierarchical system of notebooks and sub-notebooks or folders. As a result I have turned from a consistent evangelist, turning many people on to the program over the years, to simply an individual user. I use it less and less, as I more more and more material back to the Dropbox/computer file system. I just think it's sad that a program with so much potential suffers from this limitation simply because it's creators seem to have a zealot's ideological opposition to an intuitive system that millions have used successfully and happily for years. Folders would cost them so little, and benefit them and the users so much. 

2 hours ago, DTLow said:

Folders were the traditional filing method
Tags are a more recent advancement.

Tags might be an adequate substitute if they were fully implemented and integrated. On Evernote for Mac one must go to a separate screen. The main view is organized around stacks and notebooks. If tags are to replace that "old fashioned" folder-like tool, then they should be built into the core note view in place of stacks and notebooks (and, if Evernote were fully functional, sub-notebooks). However, the make or break issue for tags is that they are not implemented in iOS. True, they *exist*, but only as one long unmanageable flat file list. There is no way to browse them in a hierarchical way, so they CANNOT function as a tool to organize information hierarchically. Evernote assumes that Find should be the main organizational tool. Find is helpful, but categorization is equally important, and sometimes way more important. I don't ask partisans of Find to give up their tool. I just want the choice to use fully-implemented categorization. What's so wrong about that? Why isn't there a choice? Would implementing subfolders be so difficult? Dropbox does it on the web and the desktop. I think the reason there are no sub-notebooks is that the Evernote staff think they know best and are intent on teaching all us poor fools to be "modern." Bottom line: I love tags, but they are NOT a substitute, unless they are built into the most basic interface and implemented on all platforms.

6 hours ago, DTLow said:

There's a story that if Henry Ford asked customers what they wanted, they would have said faster horses

But those were not his customers. They were the people who didn't buy and promote his product. He asked Model T customers and the result was the Model A, a better car.

6 hours ago, csihilling said:

What would the search syntax for a section be?

We're not talking about search syntax. Nested notebooks/folders is an alternate way of thinking - a collapsible outline of categories where you can simply (and simple is the point here) click your way to where you have gathered related materials. Search (including using tags) is great for leaping deep into a great quantity of material, or finding things that are related but stored in different notebooks and folders, but the notebook/folder system is very intuitive and always there in front of you. You don't have to remember a vast set of tags or keywords to find the grouping you are looking for. Each system has it's advantages, but Evernote only seems to value search.

6 hours ago, jefito said:

your time is probably better spent seeking a different product that works better for you

It makes me sad, but I fear you are right. After spending many years promoting Evernote to family and friends, I now find myself casting about for another solution. I never thought that would happen (and I don't know if I'll succeed) but a once-very-loyal Evernote user and premium member is now heading for the exit, if he can find one.

Jefito,

The key problem with the tags "solution" is that tags are not well-implemented in iOS. There they simply cannot be used in the same way as nested notebooks. In iOS, there is no tag nesting, and the tags list is hidden away, several clicks deep, in the settings tab. As to "offense," I'm sure you didn't intend to offend, but there is a certain patronizing tone to all the posts that just tell notebook/folder fans to just get over their (implied) rigidity and get with the program (i.e. the way the commentator does things). That might be fine if it worked, but it simply doesn't for many of us. We aren't asking others to change their preferred method of organization; we're simply asking to be given tools that are quite customary in the computing world, and for good reason. For certain tasks, they work better. However, I fear we are whistling in the wind, since I don't think Evernote is willing to consider that point.

jeffsf

14 hours ago, tavor said:

Tags have you covered there, too. See pseudo-notebooks - I couldn't find @JMichaelTX's original thread on this, but this discussion covers it pretty well:

As you can see, pseudo-notebooks, i.e., nested tags as notebooks or folders or whatever you want to call the hierarchical structure, addresses the concerns your post raises.

 

Many thanks for the suggestion. I had already read it, and admire the creativity. It's very practical for my computer, but I haven't figured out how to use it easily on the iPhone. To see the tag hierarchy on the phone, one has to go into settings, inside the account tab. Stacks and notebooks, are immediately available in a pull-down right in the notes area. So while I'm continuing to try to make tags work, in combo with notebooks, I would pay a good deal to have a more robust notebook function, though Evernote, with their fixation on search terms rather than hierarchy, seem fairly deaf to the entreaties of folks who prefer to work with hierarchies.

7 hours ago, DTLow said:

I didn't mean to reopen the tag vs notebook debate.
The fact is, you've selected a product that uses nested tags for organization

But getting into it, I can turn your Tag comments around and say the same thing about Notebooks.
- you have to recall your specific notebook from memory
- or go to a specific place to remember the notebook structure
....

You could also mention a notebook is a container and a tag is a label 
but the reality is that both are just fields assigned to a note

My comments do not invalidate the posting of a Nesting Notebook Request
I just mean to counter your Tag response

I get your idea about recall, but in fact that is the genius of nested file structures (notebooks, folders, directories, etc.). You only have to remember the broad general category, or find it in a short list of folders at the top level. Then you navigate through easily browsable lists at each level, so precise recall is not in the least the issue. Some proponents of tags suggest nested tags as a substitute, and that's just fine on a computer, where you can see the tags in their hierarchical structure, but on the iPhone you can't see tags as a hierarchy. You can work around that, but the list is still visible only deep in the account tab (under settings), completely separate from the ability to see the notes that are under the tags. It's completely unworkable as a browsing mechanism. Hence the desire for nested notebooks, since the notebook pull-down is right there in the notes section of the app.

On 2/24/2017 at 2:20 PM, DTLow said:

There isn't a problem; This is a request for a feature

Never say never, but it does seem clear that this feature is not available in Evernote.

Instead, Evernote has a Tag feature with unlimited hierarchy

Perhaps you don't find this a problem for the way you like to work, but it is a problem for me and others. Tags are a wonderful tool, but they are not a substitute for a structured system where one can group items in browsable sets and see the structure as one searches. With tags you have to recall the specific tag from memory, or go to a separate place to remember the tag structure, then go back and do a search. It is enormously cumbersome for searching that involves browsing related items to rediscover what's there or to find something for which you do not recall the exact title or tag. Hierarchical file systems have their weaknesses, which tags have done a lot to fix (such as being able to tie an item to more than one category), but they also possess enormous strengths. Find commands, whether using tags or some other mechanism are one good tool, but they are not always the right one. 

The answer to ask these problems is for Evernote just to allow more levels of nesting in the notebook area, like the Mac OS has had since, let me see, 1984?