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Posts posted by Machine_Learning

  1. 3 minutes ago, gazumped said:

    The policy you already accepted as a user is here > https://evernote.com/legal/privacy.php

    Check under "Does Evernote Share My Personal Information or Content?"

    It doesn't dilute the statement "your data is yours",  which is at the top of the page...

    Apparently the CEO admitted their mistake:


    And you are right Gazumped, they keep saying:

    • Evernote employees do not and will not read your notes without your express permission.
    • Evernote complies with the law in ways that keep the privacy of customer data paramount.
    • Our “Three Laws of Data Protection” remain intact: your data is yours, it is protected, and it is portable.

    Talk is cheap. Implement action that proves it. 

  2. 1 minute ago, mz123 said:

    The misinformation was in telling people that with an encryption implementation we must give up search. That's not true.

    As for Evernote's reassurances, I think they were proposing to break one via policy change in January. "Opt out or else" is a violation of that trust. While that may not have been for profit, breaking one commitment indicates a willingness to break commitments. This is really simple: Evernote should indicate its commitment through technology implementation, rather than vague policies that can be easily changed.


    Opt-out or else, exactly. It's my data, I own it. Why do I have to Opt-out??

    Like I said in a post before:

    In the 3 Laws of Data the Evernote claims to abide by, they say my data is >mine<. If it's mine, why am I not allowed to have the final say in decisions about it and what affects it. If they have additional terms that affect the statement: "Your data is yours.", why aren't they included in the 3 laws, and why are they hidden somewhere else? Why do I have to opt-out of machine learning. It's my data. If you want to use my data that I own, you gotta ask if I want to opt-in. Gymnastics.

  3. 12 minutes ago, gazumped said:

    It's not misinformation to say that Evernote have repeatedly reassured users that they will never mine personal data for profit.

    As to the rest,  that's up to Evernote to implement.  While I have no problem with anyone venting their frustrations,  a ton of conflicting 'don't touch my data' demands (read the terms and conditions lately?) won't help anything.


    What's conflicting? In the 3 Laws of Data the Evernote claims to abide by, they say my data is >mine<. If it's mine, why am I not allowed to have the final say in decisions about it and what affects it. If they have additional terms that affect the statement: "Your data is yours.", why aren't they included in the 3 laws, and why are they hidden somewhere else? Why do I have to opt-out of machine learning. It's my data. If you want to use my data that I own, you gotta ask if I want to opt-in. Gymnastics.

    The only caveat they apply to the act that the data is mine is when it comes to transporting my data. They say "For example, you give us permission to back it up, send it over a network, index it for searching, display it on your various devices, etc. Some of these operations may require us to send your data to our normal business partners–such as a network operator–that we have contracted with to provide parts of the Evernote Service. Before we do this, we’ll always make sure that our contracts with such partners protect your ownership rights." 

    Generally, they are talking about how they move your data, which you can still do with Encrypted data. They talk about indexing it for searching, which can be done on the client side after encryption. Displaying it on the devices is ambiguous, but can still be done on the client side after encryption. 

    So, being that all of this can be done without need to actually parse or review the data in context, then why would they need to look at my data otherwise? Why am I not allowed to demand that my data remains secure and unreadable? 

    It's just a fluff piece. I'm sure somewhere else in their terms and conditions and privacy policy there's a statement that says that anyone at anytime or any reason "to improve something their product or something" can read and have unfettered, unlogged, unknown access to your data. You won't be informed that a database engineer named Melanie and a Front End developer named Steve were having beers on their MacBooks at a local bar after hours pulling up your records and laughing at your Furry Fetish Convent album and notes. 

    The only way you know that someone isn't enjoying the content of your notes is total encryption, and having data totally encrypted in the cloud in this day and age is not a demand that is unreasonable. It's a necessity. 



  4. 1 minute ago, gazumped said:

    They've said several times that no,  they won't.

    Get ready to work in a different way since search won't find your notes,  and opening and editing encrypted information will be less easy than you'd like...

    Like @DTLow says - if you want ecryption,  then vote for it.  Pointless speculation is just noise.

    Why not? www.mega.co.nz works this way and offers a search feature, and still integrates with my operating systems search feature. I can search from my operating system, from the web app, from the android and ios app, search works fine and snappy and I have many GB's of information stored on MEGA. 

    It would take quite a bit of retooling in order to do this, and there isn't a ton of money to be made in it. I honestly think to many people, there is a lot of value in the services and advertising they receive by opening up access of their information to third parties. I think that Evernote would be able to make a ton more money doing that, rather than re-writing the application so that one could keep their notes encrypted locally, through transport and in the cloud, but un-encrypting en-masse with their secure key. That would be the end game for an app, you would no longer be able to parse the information and do stuff with your users data. Just provide the transport and storage mechanisms for their encrypted data. 

    Unfortunately, for people that are here ranting angry and people like me, we want total encrpytion, we want no one looking at our notes for any reason unless they are compelled by law. We want to know A.S.A.P. the 5 W's when it comes to accessing our data: Who, What, Where, When Why. 

    But many will tell you that you can't expect all of that in the cloud and beware of anyone claiming to offer that because it's probably not true. 

    I understand where that is coming from, but a promise is a promise and breaking promises gives you legal footing. I trust a company like Evernote less who can't be straight forward and has to go through Terms of Service/Privacy Policy gymnastics in order to relate the nuances of their morally ambiguous behavior.

  5. 2 hours ago, mz123 said:

    I'm trying to see if Evernote will commit to really address this need, or if recent statements are just damage control:

    The problem is that Evernote cannot encrypt their product in the way that we would like to and do Machine Learning. Down the road, if they aren't already, I'd imagine they also want access to their users notes and data in order to mine it and find ways of using it that they could monetize, much like how Google scans the content of your drive, docs and e-mail on top of your youtube and google history in order to build a marketing profile for you. I'd imagine that Evernote is likely putting the Machine Learning to use to figure out novel ways of parsing users notes data and meta-data to glean information that is usable for these and similar purposes. 

    We want total encryption, that won't even allow Evernote to see our content. Evernote could easily implement a system that provides that. They won't, because of the above. 


  6. 1 minute ago, gazumped said:

    Inside information?  Or blind faith at this point?  It could be $25/ month...

    Complete 100% blind faith exacerbated by my completely sterile empathy free legalistic professional interaction with Evernote Customer Service this morning about the situation. I wanted a refund. I'm about 10 weeks into the service. Missed the window by 2 weeks. Wanted to just walk away from it and go find something else and ignore it. But they want to keep my money for the 9+ months I had remaining after I cancelled. They won't bend their own rules, and I can see I'm not the only person frustrated or upset. This also ties into some things that have been sticking in my mind.. these erosions of rights and privacy that has been happening over the last decade and a half... and that it's just the way the world works and if you don't like it, tough. True privacy is a luxury now, a person is apparently now just the sum of their metadata.... it's frustrating that the only note taking app that offered ok encryption is now going in the direction of exposing our data to in the name of profit.Profits twists and bends values and morals. Comfortable bank accounts and loose ethics make it easier for Melanie, a programer/scientist at Evernote to accidentally stumble across part of a note by Bob Smith, Evernote user, where he documented information about his first romantic experience with his best friend Joseph at the age of 19...it's completely romantic and deeply nostalgic. She can tell that Bob was madly in love with Joseph..... Melanie reads the information and develops, for whatever reason, a curiosity about Bob Smith and his friend Joseph.... she knows she shouldn't... sigh..but she does anyway. She looks Bob up on Facebook and finds his account. He's a sharp dresser and has a warm smile. She looks through his friend list but doesn't find a Joseph.... she goes back to Bob's notes and digs up more information on Joseph and find enough information to locate Joseph Miller on facebook as well. 

    It's February 12th, the fallout of all of this took it's toll on Evernote... who knows.. maybe a positive story would help the fact that they read a users data.

    So she does it. She messages Joesph and tells him about what she read and about how much Bob was in love with him and it was so heartwarming. Joseph seems a little confused, and she pushed him to contact Bob and he agrees. She links him Bob's Facebook profile to help him locate it. 

    She then walks away and wipes her hands of it, thinking down the road she might look it up again and possibly point it out to others at the company that she played cupid and connect 2 lovers again lost to time. She goes home and completely forgets about the interaction after her brain is filled from other stimulus coming from her cell phone, computer and telivision.

    Oh, and a few days later someone walks by a newspaper with a headline

    Man, 67, Dead In Apparant Murder Suicide

    It was revealed today that the men involved in Monday's murder suicide knew each other as young men, and that one of the men killed the other out of a panicked anger..etc..etc..etc..


    Yeah I know. It's extreme. But I'd just rather know my data's encrypted. Guess I'm a ***** for hoping for that in the cloud. 


  7. Just now, gazumped said:

    I like the features of the app,  But while people here are trashing Evernote because they don't trust that their data will be anonymized and only visible to a few trusted employees,  Turtl is equally vague about pricing...  (I didn't spend too much time delving)

    - That's my emphasis.

    So it's free for now,  but when you start using the service seriously,  and have committed fully to using it,  you'll find out how much it will cost.  Not cool.  And suppose I want to extract my information so I can move it elsewhere if I find the cost too much?  Any exit options?  At all?

    Despite some serious reservations about where Evernote is going - after an opt-out for my data,  I'm going to stick with Evernote for a while. 

    I've been in the industry for a long time - I still remember my early days in a contact centre dealing with tech support and on one occasion reading someone's email to them because their PC had crashed.  Passwords,  email content,  web pages - everything was pretty much open to anyone in tech support.  (I'd better stress this was before the Data Protection Act was ever thought of in the UK)

    Even so,  the management kept strict tabs on who was looking at what,  and the manic incoming call rate meant no-one had the time to misbehave anyway.  You'll be relieved to hear that we're living in a far more secure environment these days as far as personal data is concerned.  I'm told.

    I still work on the basis though that if I save something online,  someone,  somewhere,  with or without my permission could have access.  Ultimately if I can still see something if and when I choose,  then despite any protections or encryptions,  someone else can do the same by pretending to be me.

    I think Evernote are trying to be upfront about the changes to their terms,  which AFAICS are pretty minor.  Rather than a small number of employees being trusted to look at customer data (which has always been the case),  they're having to include a small number of Googlers who are helping manage the systems.  They'll also be looking more frequently at anonymized information in process of making sure their Skynet system isn't plotting some sort of takeover.  It's really not a big deal. 

    Like some other commenters here I'm mainly concerned that Evernote is now chasing a rainbow that will distract them from fixing the many things that are still wrong with the system.  I have zero interest in software that 'helps' me by making choices or decisions on my behalf.  I would appreciate having still faster responses from the desktop apps,  and full parity of features (as far as is technically possible) between desktop,  mobile and web applications.

    I'm just happy to see some people out there who are trying to achieve total privacy and total encryption. And I would be glad to pay them for it, because they are being totally upfront about the fact that they will start charging. If it's truly encrypted, and they promise they won't mine my data for any reason, they've earned my $100.00 a year. They'll need it. 

  8. 2 minutes ago, DTLow said:

    Evernote implemented text encryption on the desktop platforms, but doesn't seem to want to take it further.

    For myself, I make use of encrypted PDF files.

    Im not familiar with your turtlapp example

    - does it offer search of encrypted data?

    - does the encryption/decryption work across all platforms?

    I'm not sure, I just found them and it looks like they are just starting out. They have an Android, Web and MacOS App and looks like iOs on the way, and here are there encryption methodologies:



  9. 4 minutes ago, wphall said:

    Can't believe I'm actually going to chime in here.... its just going to get drowned out, but I'm going to do it bullet point format hoping it helps someone.

    • Yes, this "privacy" policy sucks. It really isn't much of a privacy policy - You just might have to "deal" with this or leave
    • EN Talks about privacy being so important.. then how come we can't encrypt our notebooks?
    • IF EN can do AI, it can certainly create notebook level encryption. They just choose not to and there's a reason for this (ex Googler is EN CEO where privacy is flexible)
    • EN is clearly moving towards a google model: Collect all the data they can and then find a way to sell ads for revenue
    • Recommendation if you don't like this: 1) Move your notes to a Local Notebook and keep the essential note taking in "the cloud" so you can transfer around 2) Opt out of the user experience option 3) Leave EN. Nothing talks to a company like $. If you're a free customer, you really have nothing to complain about. We have all sold our privacy for free (Ex: Google Search, Google Drive, Google Apps, Google Maps, Mac OS X, Windows 10, Apple IOS, Android, etc... - Free is not free).
    • This is not very different from DropBox, Google Drive, Etc... They are searching everything. Have you ever tried to copy an encrypted file into Google Drive? Good luck, it won't work... there's a reason for that.

    EN: You are going to loose this battle. People are going to leave more than you think they will. I used to be a strategist at Apple for many years and have seen this played out over and over. You are going to use AI to "recommend" services to your users in exchange for $$ on the back side. This is fine, but you are not Google. Google search users don't store stuff, EN users do. You will loose this. Recommendation: Free users get AI based ads and premium users don't and thus, automagically opt-out of the user experience thing. Finally, you need to re-build people's trust. Just turn on an option to encrypt a notebook for premium customers. This is just negligent towards your customers.


    OK people, as a whole, you must understand this: Your privacy? It left a very long time ago. EN is just late to this. If you use Android, they can predict your behavior better than you. If you use Windows, Cortana is always searching your stuff. It goes on and on. Our privacy ends the moment you use anything digital. Its pretty upsetting, but its the cost of being digital.

    Good luck finding your comfort zone.

    Or you could support an alternative that has already hit the ground running with this and will only get better if more Evernote users migrate and support:


  10. 1 minute ago, GrumpyMonkey said:

    my memory is that they have had access from the start -- customer service, after all, had to go in there sometimes (at our request), and they have legal obligations as well.

    All situations where we are generally actively aware of their access to our data. If you are contacting customer service, and they say they need access to a note, you can decline and say no, I'd rather not have you read the contents of that note. They might not be able to assist you with your issue, of course, but you still had control and you were aware at the moment of who was in your notes, when.

    If they receive a warrant or subpoena, this is an action taken through the legal system. Most companies that flout a stringent privacy policy even state they'll fight any government or police request unless they receive notice from a judge (a warrant/subpeona) that they must hand it over. Then, unless given a gag order, they are generally nice enough to forward to warrant on to you as the consumer. Again, a situation where you can become aware of who did it when and where. 

    All other times, Evernote claims that our data is our data. They say we own it. They say Evernote does not own it. They say Google and their cloud server Evernote is on does not own it. 

    Ok, since I own it, then I want control and SPECIFIC KNOWLEDGE as to what parts of my data are being reviewed and access, and I want to OPT-IN, not OUT by default. Generally, if you own something, someone has to ask you permission to use it. If you are automatically opted in, that's not asking permission. That's inviting yourself, and that's just proving that Chris's and Evernotes words are corporate political legal barely honest mumbo jumbo B.S. used to distract you from the point.

    • Like 1

    1 hour ago, huladaddy said:

    You say:

    "Everything we do at Evernote follows these three basic rules:

    Your Data is Yours
    Your Data is Protected
    Your Data is Portable"

    Since OUR data is OURS, how about letting US dictate terms under which YOU can look at it. I agree with others about the vagueness of these future improvements you have alluded to, but let's give you the benefit of the doubt that we will actually want them. Since you can't be specific about how many employees will look at our data, and how much of our data will be looked at, and how often because your new terms were crafted by skilled lawyers that leaves you all kinds of wiggle room, naturally we are very uncomfortable with any kind of carte blanche access. If you want us to believe you still have our best interests at heart, and you want us to trust you when you say that a very small number of employees will be looking at random samples of our data, why not be fully transparent?


    WE would be willing to grant YOU access to look at our data under the following conditions:

    Every time one of our notes is viewed by one of your employees:

    1. the date, time, and employees full name is permanently logged in the note's Note Info metadata
    2. any attached files that are viewed are also logged as above
    3. a tag is added to the note, such as "#SKYNET", to make it easy for us to view all notes which have been viewed by you
    4. an email is sent to us to summarize the above actions that have occurred


    We can then determine for ourselves individually whether sharing our private data with you is worth the "improved experience".

    Beautiful. Way to throw their corporate canned lawyer speak back in their faces. I used to love Evernote. Green is my favorite color... but now I don't associate them with my favorite color anymore...a natural green. The type of green I see all over Evernote now is $$$$$. 

    • Like 2
  12. What initially drew me to Evernote was the ability to sync my notes between my laptop and phone easily, and also have them available from any computer if I log into the web. 

    What brought me back after trying alternatives for a while is they seemed to be the only company that cared about securing your note and offered encryption. I falsely operated under the assumption that this meant they didn't look at your data either. But with the new machine learning initiative and transferring to googles cloud, which is purely a data mining company, it's painfully obvious I was naive about that. 

    Sure, they supposedly can't view encrypted notes, but if you are going to encrypt all of your content, then way it's currently implemented would be quite a headache to use efficiently. 

    I wish they operated somewhat like LastPass or Mega does with their encryption, IE enter a key to use the app, it's all decrypted client side, but encrypted upstream and when stored on their servers. 


  13. 12 minutes ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

    This is in fact somewhat helpful, at least acknowledging the bad communication (any chance this will result in better communication in the future?), giving reassurances about access to content, and clarifying the actual purpose of the change. However, the nub of the issue is this:

    As several of us have said here, we profoundly disagree with this "belief." The examples given are not impressive. If Evernote can cite requests from users for this "improvement," they really ought to do so. Otherwise, this looks like more Evernote socks: something management thought users ought to want, without any evidence that they actually did; something that many users in fact instantly and actively despise; and something that draws serious resources away from improvements to editing and interface aspects of Evernote for which users have been asking for years.

    You know what I want? I want Evernote to handle PLAIN TEXT. I want to type CODE into Evernote and note worry about how it messes with my single and double quotes. It breaks indentation when you paste in plain text, and then it converts it to whatever B.S. you have to have for default text, then re-convert it back to plain text. It's a mess!!!! It's almost like they want you to use Evernote, but make it difficult to pull information back out of it to use it in other places. 

    Just another Apple or Google or Facebook, creating a walled garden making consumers reliant on the service and unable to go outside of the service, so that they can obtain as much information as possible from the user in order to mine it and make the service better. It makes sense as a business model and it works. And I guess people like me who get pissed off because of it are just stupid idiots who are claiming the sky is falling. Whatever. Just another drop in the tech-hatred bucket. Enjoy my 50 Bucks, Chris O'Neill.  

  14. Oh nice, has to be approved by a moderator, so I can sit here and rant and likely not even get it posted. Well anyway, just in case.

    Cancelled my $70.00 premium subscription just over 2 months in because of all this. Asked Evernote for a refund of the ~$57.00 of unused Premium I have left from the rest of the year I won't use. They told me to go $%^# myself, the cash is all theirs now.

    Just a few weeks over my 8 week refund window and they implement this change and deny me a refund. Talked to James B through their Customer Service e-mail and of course he's more interested in throwing TOS in my face than damage control and apologies and attempting to retain a customer. They can do what they want once they have my money, and I can go %$#@ myself if I'm not happy with it. Their TOS says so. So either be a good cash cow consumer, or GTFO. Thanks, Evernote. I stuck with you for the past few years hoping you'd improve the basic features, but now your going off on some stupid machine learning tangent, hooking up with Google who is the worlds shadiest data miner, starting to mine your own customers data, and then robotically spinning and rejecting customers...erp I'm sorry I mean moronic-cash-cows, who get upset at losing more privacy in a world that doesn't value it anymore. 

    This keeps happening, more and more companies want you to bare yourself completely in the interest in fattening the CEO's wallets. Our culture is giving into it, because the only people who would have anything to keep private are devious people. No one wants to be shamed as a devious person, so they don't fight it. Evernote is either clueless about all of this, or just jumping on the bandwagon and getting those checking accounts and investment balances inflated before the company tanks. 

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