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Wanderling Reborn

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Posts posted by Wanderling Reborn

  1. Joplin is, unfortunately, extremely limited on iOS.

    • Joplin is not registered in the iOS “Share to...” functionality, so any additions of attachments or photos must be initiated from inside Joplin. I.e. can’t take a screenshot of a web page and send it to Joplin. Instead you have to save it, switch to Joplin, and add it from there.
    • You can’t export any of your notes in any format other than plaintext with markdown. All images and attachments are lost and formatting only works if the recipient is using a markdown reader. This is not an issue if you don’t send your notes to other people from your iOS device. 
    • There’s a “read” mode and an “edit” mode. In the edit mode, you’re working with Markdown, meaning that all images become text. I often annotate photos and screenshots, which is a bit hard to do if you don’t see them.
    • I am a heavy user of tables for arranging info and attachments. In Joplin, you can only create tables via typing Markdown code, which only becomes a table once you switch from Edit to Read. I want to write a note, not to code it. Markdown tables are a joke, especially when you want to rearrange them.
    • There’s an attachment upload limit of 10mb on mobile. 

    It’s an interesting project, and probably fine for desktop use. But I am very heavily dependent on iOS and Joplin is just too underwhelming there.

    • Like 2
  2. So, you have no problem if the service suddenly folds tomorrow, and are not interested in discussing its history and future.

    That's great, but I don't see how it's "weird" to discuss these things for those of us who do care.

    I've been through more than one case of a service I've been relying on either dying suddenly (Springpad, anyone ?) or getting bought out and getting changed so drastically it was no longer useful to me. Even if I have a way to transfer all of my data, it's still a major disruption.

    In case of Evernote, I don't really have that much invested into it anymore, outside of maintaining my wife's notebooks, but I still care about it and would like it to become attractive to me again.

  3. Here's another great read.



    "Evernote's new CEO on the company's critics: 'I love to be underestimated'"

    " What people don’t understand about the company is that we’re in a very solid financial position. We’re on the path to sustainability. We don’t have to raise more money. We had a cash-flow positive month in March. "

    Sounds familiar ?


    2 hours ago, gazumped said:

    I think you had those statements in the wrong order.  Evernote plays its finance cards close to its chest - though the new CEO (as you might expect) has confirmed they're profitable.

    Is that what you read from the article ? Because what I read was that their CEO Du Jour (#3 in almost as many years) confirmed that (a) Evernote still has not been profitable so far despite drastically raising prices 3 years ago, and (b) their grand plan to succeed by becoming a business service provider did not work out and is being essentially shelved, along with the fancy socks that the article writer was so obsessed with. He thinks they finally may become profitable (i.e. not lose money) this year, but we've heard this before.

    2 hours ago, gazumped said:

    I'm confused as to where this discussion is going though - are we saying Evernote needs to get their technical act together to survive? That they should give away the premium level of service for free?  That the sky is falling and we should all use other software before Evernote implodes? (which by the way is the very definition of 'self-fulfilling prophecy')  

    I am discussing the article and what it actually says.

    No, they don't have to give away the premium service for free, but it seems pretty clear to me that they are not being successful with their current pricing and that they need to define a different business strategy now.

    2 hours ago, gazumped said:

    Given that their user base is larger than some small countries - Japan for instance - even if only a small percentage of users are actually paying for the service,  it's not beyond the bounds of possibility that there's a solid income stream.

    It's not beyond the bounds of possibility that I will win the lottery this year, either.

    But the article clearly states that they were still not profitable as of its writing, but "expect" to not be in red by the end of 2019. I believe I read something very similar in 2015 when O'Neil took over. The number of downloads isn't relevant, pretty much every app with some name recognition gets downloaded by almost everyone, they create a free account, and then never use it. I myself must've created at least 4-5 free accounts over the years because I kept forgetting my login or wanted to start from scratch.

    What matters is the number of paying users. And it's clearly hasn't been enough to make profit even year after year, let alone a nice return on investment.

    2 hours ago, gazumped said:

    Evernote already have the 'fixing their act' thing under review.

    That's good to know... even though we've been through this more than once before.  Let's hope this time it's going to be different. As opposed to all the previous times they "had it under review" in the past few years. Like a ship with torn sails, no compass, and too many captains.

    I personally believe that they should drop the prices and rehash the paid service plans to make the service attractive enough for the new users to actually pay for it; perhaps get rid of unlimited storage with limited upload, and instead introduce something like 10GB - 100GB - 1TB tiers, more in line with what everyone else is doing; and try to get as many paid users on their lower tier plans as possible to increase the appeal of the service while still having money flowing in, as opposed to concentrating on pushing the expensive top tier that most people don't need and don't want. And add full encryption, because in 2019 it's a necessity.



    • Like 1
  5. Just to add.. I've been bouncing between Evernote and Onenote for years.

    I went with Evernote first, because Onenote didn't have a decent mobile client.

    I could never quite get used to Evernote's structure and lack of total note encryption, so I moved all of my notes to Onenote. My wife stayed with EN because she doesn't want to keep changing things that work for her (I am still the one doing most of the work ;)

    I still use Onenote for work, I really like the structured way it works - makes it great for organizing project information and having it all there arranged in a visually logical way. And the degree of integration with MS Suite is just unbeatable. E.g. I can open my meeting scheduled in Outlook, create a linked Onenote note right from within it, and as I take meeting minutes,  I can turn lines of text into Outlook tasks with a single click, and when the meeting is over, all of the action items have already been turned into Outlook tasks and assigned to people via Exchange and linked back to the note.

    However, I am hesitant to keep my personal data in Onenote, because of their strategy of moving everything to the cloud and not providing an easy way of exporting notes while preserving file attachments, which I use very extensively. There are some 3rd party tools, but I don't know if they will even work 2-4 years down the road. So, all of my personal stuff is going into file folders as PDFs or Excel spreadsheets or Word docs, synced to Onedrive (which provides the same OCR functionality for text in PDFs and pictures as Onenote and paid Evernote), and can be moved to another service in half an hour. I would far rather keep it in iCloud, as I don't like MS' datamining my information, but iCloud is still  a rather clunky service and very limited on Windows. (All of the really sensitive stuff is fully encrypted anyway).

    My only issue with this is that there really isn't an easy, common, and future proof way to combine text and attachments into one single note on that would work cross platform between Apple and Windows. I really like having my notes and my attachments together. There's a number of proprietary tools, and some allow easily exporting data in common formats. The tool I currently use is iThoughts mindmapper. But I'd be very open to going back to Evernote if (1) they came up with a better pricing strategy,  and (2) they provided full note encryption, or better else full notebook encryption, and (3) I was sure that they are not going anywhere anytime soon.

  6. 42 minutes ago, DTLow said:

    Do you see a problem with the majority of consumers unwilling to pay for this service

    Of course. This is the problem. And they have to solve this problem by making the service appealing to enough people to make it profitable. Because as difficult as it is, this would be a far easier task than trying to sell to businesses. As they have found out already.

    >>Where's the money coming from to pay the bills?

    Well, we know it's not coming from business accounts, because they didn't materialize.

    They are not coming from new users because there doesn't seem to be enough of them.

    My guess is, it's coming in part from venture capitalists who are already so deep into this company they may as well keep it afloat for a while longer, and the existing users, who are already so deep into this... you get the idea.

    >>captive loyal users

    >>Where does the "captive" part come from.
    >>Evernote has always made it easy to export our data and leave

    And yet, here you are.

    Reading through the forums, it's clear that many people here are old time users so deeply entrenched into Evernote's way of doing things and so very invested into the service, they would tolerate yet another price hike because they can't stand the alternative. Seems fairly captive to me. OK, how about "deeply entrenched and dependent ?"

  7. The gist of the article: in 2019, at the peak of the longest and most spectacular market bull run in history, while other, younger former startups are going through multi billion dollar IPOs, Evernote is cautiously confident it can, finally, stop bleeding cash and may, finally turn a small profit the first time in a decade. Hopefully. Their “pivot to business” has not worked out (I said so when it was announced, having spent over two decades somewhat involved with software and services procurement).

    In the meantime, they are hoping to start fixing years old bugs,  and are kicking around the idea of hiring high morale, low pay loyal users instead of low morale, expensive industry professionals. And seem to be very proud of the fact that they are not dead yet, unlike some other startups.

    The big looming question is, what happens when the bull market inevitably - and fairly soon - turns into a bear, and people and businesses start rethinking their spending. 

    What they need is yet another pivot - towards consumer. A new, saner pricing strategy, directed at individuals and mom and pop shops. Something to elevate them from the free or value priced competition, that they could sell to the new users. Get away from the startup / IPO mentality, that ship had sailed, hit the iceberg, and sunk years ago. Become a boring business that makes money by selling services to consumers.

    Or, just keep cutting costs, raising prices on captive loyal users, and hoping for the best.

  8. On 6/9/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jeffsky said:

    I said “Real Competitor”.   They may be viewed as competitors in a google search, but that does not make them true competitors for a large percentage of Evernote’s base. How can they compete without the ability to come close in many of the areas that make us Evernote cusomers?  (I.e. Search functionality).   

    That make YOU Evernote customers. What you are basically saying is that Evernote is a perfect solution for the specific user base that loves the way Evernote works. I.e. die hard EN fans. Which is fine and true. But there is real competition out there, and has been for a while now.

    On 6/9/2019 at 1:59 PM, Jeffsky said:

    The other apps are like college teams competing with pro teams.   Would you call them competitors?    Right now Evernote is in a league of its own.   I only wish one of the companies would step up their game to truly compete.  Or, maybe they don’t see Evernote’s market worthy to compete for - Too big of an investment, for too small of a customer base.   

    Again, only when you are talking about die hard Evernote users for which, if it doesn't work like Evernote, it's not going to work.


    • Confused 1
  9. On 7/14/2019 at 11:07 AM, DTLow said:

    US NSA/courts, Chinese Government, Google data mining, ...   pick your poison  😮

    Not the same poison.

    US NSA wants to spy on your political views and possible terrorist connections. ("Terrorist" may be defined somewhat broadly...)

    Google wants to build your profile so that they could sell you services, or perhaps down the line influence your vote.

    China wants to do all of the above, plus steal your company's business secrets, your intellectual property, any bit of information that could be used for industrial espionage, plus perhaps money from your bank account because the nameless agent working in a nameless numbered spy unit is underpaid, overworked, unregulated, and wants to have something for himself, too.

  10. On 3/22/2019 at 10:59 AM, IBaghdadi said:

    I've been using Evernote for several years for my small team, mostly the free plan, and mostly as an automated notes repository. With my team expanding and with more funds, we've been seriously considering increasing the centrality of Evernote in our work processes, and upgrading to a paid plan.

    Which is when I logged into Evernote web, and within 20 minutes decided that what I need is a way to migrate my team and all my notes out of Evernote and into a better tool, one that's designed by a company that respects its users more.

    You see, I recently purchased a Chromebook, which became my main device. Which means I'll be using the web version most. I was pleased to see it's gotten a major update, but when it came to using it, it's just unbearably slow to an unusable degree. I don't want to wait for minutes every time I want to add a note or every time I want to switch from one note to the next.

    Add to that, there are just far more full featured options on the market now. I won't mention any here (I'm not here to plug any alternatives), just noting that new tools now have universal embeds, beautiful & smooth UI, fast operation, and no bugs. Some even have full-featured task management, spreadsheets/databases, etc on top. For a tool that needs to do just *one* thing and do it right and fast, Evernote is just very mediocre.

    Come to think of it, this is what made me stop using Evernote on a daily basis in the first place (preferring to simply make it an automated notes repository) several years ago - the very sluggish operation and the terrible UI/UX. I hoped all these years that it'll get better, but it only got worse.

    I didn't have to write this post btw, had Evernote had the foresight to allow non-paying users file technical reports/complaints, but then you expect me to pay *first* and then ask you questions about basic workablility/operation of your tool, which is frankly ridiculous.

    Now actively looking for alternatives to Evernote and for ways to migrate all 14k+ notes out.


    Why use the web version when ChromeOS now supports running Android apps ?

  11. 4 hours ago, DTLow said:

    I have one small folder for esential documents.
    Any other  paperwork gets scanned and discarded asap - I use the camera on my iPad

    Same for me. I used to hate with sheer, burning, red hot passion having to deal with freaking piles and piles and piles of endless paperwork. Credit card bills... mortgages.. kids’ vaccinations... bank statements... remodeling documents.... especially one-off bits of paper. Where is that letter from two years ago with names and phone numbers of our HOA board members ? It’s somewere in the “Home” folder.. too bad that the “Home” folder is actually four large handing files literally bursting at the seams... 

    Getting a phone out, taking scans of recent documents, filing and shredding them takes at most an hour a month, combined. I spend more time over the course of my life wiping my butt :)

    Now when I was using a flatbed scanner, it was still a chore. But with modern phone scanning apps, the process is super fast and simple.

  12. So, the only reason I am still using Onenote and Evernote is the convenience of taking notes on mobile devices and keeping them with related files.

    Some time ago, I moved all of my data to file storage, placed in OneDrive. I used plaintext tags wherever possible to tag it, and relied on OS global search (Windows indexing, Spotlight, OneDrive search, depending on what platform I was using at the time). 

    The files that I wanted to protect went into a Cryptomator encrypted set of folders, and I used an open source indexing program to search on Windows. The program and its index were saved inside encrypted storage. (This didn’t let me search on mobile, but I rarely had to because of highly organized folder structure).

    For notes, I used Word documents.

    So, I would have a directory called “Car abc” with all service records, manuals, scans of title and registration, loan documents etc, pertaining to that car, and a Word doc with notes and photos and hyperlinks. The way OS Indexing and cloud services’ OCR evolved in the past several years, with this setup I didn’t miss Evernote or Onenote at all.

    If I only used computers, that would be it. No special services, no extra wrappers between me and my data, all files in common formats that can be simply copied or moved instead of exporting.

    Where this setup didn’t work quite as well, and the main reason I went back to a dedicated app, was on mobile. Stupidly, there was no single iOS app that I was able to find, optimized for quick note taking in a common document format (Word, preferably), supporting hyperlinks and images, and allowing me to quickly save and open individual files in different directories. Word for iOS or any other app that I tried was taking too many steps before I could start writing, or only worked with records in a specific preset folder, or used a proprietary file format that couldn’t be edited in Windows. 

    In the end I went back to Onenote / Evernote because I could just open a note and start writing and not worry about manually saving it in the same folder that other relevant files resided.

    If I was only using desktop OS, this wound not be an issue at all - I can start or open a document in a current folder very quickly using Word or OpenOffice Writer. It’s just an iOS thing.

    If I ever find a way to take a quick Word note in iOS, I will go back to this setup again. It’s future proof.

  13. 2 hours ago, newbi said:

    1] As I have repeatedly mentioned in this thread..i don't trust any cloud service safe enough to store my bank account details. Servers can be hacked/personal detail may be used in probably any country. Secondly..I have mentioned servers being located in China is a point of concern.

    So are you going to audit every single note and bit of personal info you save on their servers? I’d rather avoid known problems, there’s plenty of possible ones already.


    2] I agree, Linux is not the most popular of the desktop operating systems out there. But if you read this zd.net article you will come to know actually millions of users still prefer to use Linux. [ https://www.zdnet.com/article/how-many-linux-users-are-there-anyway/ ]

    I wonder if maintaining a linux app is not financially viable for such a popular company as Evernote, how come others are doing it.

    There’s not that many “others”. Plenty of open source developers supporting an open source OS, but as far as commercial software and services, the access is rather patchy. And it really depends on the individual companies’ direction, access to resources, and culture. I am running a Mint desktop on an older machine I keep in the basement, just so that I could do some work there sometimes. So I am well aware of both the possibilities and limitations.


    3] As i said before, i probably store less than 1% of my 32 GB data in Evernote servers, rest are in local notebooks. As you have mentioned of Springpad, u must know Springpad before being closed gave ample time to download your notes. Anyway anyone should keep back up while using any of these services.

    Oh I know that well enough, I had about two thousand notes that had to be painstakingly transfered. I was not talking about losing your data, but about the PITA and effort required to move it to another system.

    In the end, it’s your decision and of course I respect it even if I am hesitant to go that route myself.


  14. Some very subjective comments...

    1) I would never trust a data collection service from China. It is *the* industrial espionage capital of the world. Even worse, with its culture of corruption and using official position for personal enrichment, your data may be misused in many different ways. At least I don’t expect NSA agents to be stealing money from my bank account.

    2) The problem with developing for Linux isn’t that the users of that OS are not paying for services, it’s that there’s very few of them compared to other OS. Plus, there is already web access. The number of paying Linux users may not be enough to offset the cost of porting the service to the new platform and maintaining yet another client, especially with the service already struggling somewhat.

    3) I am very cautious about moving gigabytes of data to a small and relatively new player. They tend to collapse rather suddenly and leave a mess behind for their users to sort out (does anyone remember Springpad ?)

    • Like 2
  15. 3 hours ago, DTLow said:

    Actual deadlines are also addressed using the reminder date.

    I also use a title prefix to control the sequence of notes in project reviews
    For example:
           -Project Master Note
           ++Task (next action)
           +ΩTask (completed)
           +ΩTask (completed)
           Miscellaneous note
           Miscellaneous note

    That’s  a great way, too. I mainly tried to come up with a universal method that works on most systems and apps, got tired of having to change my workflow habits every time an app or service I’ve come to rely on changes, gets sold, or goes out of business. Due dates and plaintext tags work on any task manager, and alphabetical sort is common (if not universal). Everything else is icing on the cake...

    I had to jump through the proverbial hoops a couple years ago when Informant got sold and the new owners jacked up the price and introduced a bug infested new version. Now that the same thing started happening with Toodledo, I decided that enough was enough, and that the only way forward was to come up with  a task managing workflow that could work with the lowest common denominator, rather than constantly trying to find a rare service that supported the extended set of features that I relied on (like Start dates). Basically, the challenge is to achieve same complex results using the simplest tools and methods possible. And the solution is usually very simple but it requires breaking old habits and adapting new concepts - easier said than done after doing this for twenty years...

  16. Evernote/ Onenote and any other type of information manages are great for high level project planning and task generation (and for me, a mindmap type app is even better),  but to actively manage tasks without missing important deadlines, you really need to use a dedicated task manager. There are gazillion of them out there.

    My approach to not letting tasks to end up in a forgotten pile is to assign a Due date to every task, then re-access that task on that date. I may start working on that task, postpone it to another date, or even delete it if no longer relevant; but this system will not allow me to just forget about it.  Every morning I go through the list of tasks with today’s date and re-assign new dates (using my best judgment) until the only tasks left are the ones I will work on. It takes me a whopping five minutes

    And for project tasks that have actual real deadlines which need to be tracked, I add them to the title using “YY MM DD” format, so I can arrange them alphabetically if needed.


  17. Well, Onenote Desktop is supported for the next seven years, the dumbed down (for now) App version isn’t even getting installed on our machines. And the features are getting migrated over, e.g. it now supports collapsible outlines .

    But that’s not the point. Whatever the seasoned users of similar services think of Onenote doesn’t matter, they are a minority. The majority of users haven’t practiced any data management system outside of individual files and folders,  but now are being exposed to Onenote at work via MS’ aggressive marketing and IT departments starting to implement and promote that software, which they have already been paying for anyway as part of MS Office.  And when people are using Onenote at work on a daily basis, they naturally start using it at home as well - it’s free and familiar and they can use the same workflow and techniques they learned at work. It’s the browser wars all over again - it’s not the best browser that wins, it’s the one with best exposure to the masses.

    To counter that kind of exposure, you need money and a large established user base, and a competitive product. Google has both money and users, but they lack product capable of completing with Onenote (Keep is just glorified sticky notes). Evernote has product but no money or market pressense.  Seems like a no brainer to me...

  18. The post quoted at the bottom of my reply.

    It doesn’t really matter how the individual features of Onenote compare to Evernote (it’s a mixed bag either way); what matters is the massive push for integration of Onenote into OS and business workflow, that has been happening in the past couple of years. Evernote doesn’t have the resources to counter that, and Google doesn’t have adequate tools to offer. So the latest developments seem interesting...

  19. It doesn’t really matter.

    What does matter is that Onenote is (a) integrated in Windows and Office and (b) there has been a tremendous push in the last couple of years to actually entice the corporate users to actually *use* it. At least that’s what I see. I work for a major corporation and we used to have Onenote installed with Office for ever, yet very few people even knew what it was. But in the past couple of years we started to get bombarded with free seminars, classes, workflow examples, and now there’s a fairly high percentage of people and teams using it for project tracking. The same thing is happening all across the industry, especially as IT departments are slowly rolling out Windows 10. Onenote is rapidly becoming a staple in the workplace, and this means people are more likely to start using it at home.

    To stay competitive, Google really needs a corresponding tool for businesses that use Google services instead of Microsoft, and all they have now is Keep... and Evernote doesn’t have the resources to break into the corporate market.

    Just thinking out loud...

    On 11/4/2018 at 12:03 AM, The Ubiquitou sAnomaly said:

    Omg .. I can't handle this :D. This is so true.


  20. 2 hours ago, noteaddict48 said:

    If 15 % of the total workforce are thought to be of no use (getting the sack right now) then, according to my own experience, the remaining staff, respectively the Indians amongst them (Chiefs can be discounted) will be loaded with extra work. 

    No one can tell me that the tasks ahead of Evernote can be done with fewer numbers. Are the 54 job cuts necessary to finish the year "without burning cash"?

    In other words, would Evernote have ended the year in the red if staff had been kept? Depending on who is laid off, 15 % payroll + overheads, can be a significant amount. 

    Not so long ago I remember an article in which the CEO emphasised that they were recruiting.

    So, is Evernote on the point of a merger or a joint venture? 

    Would that be one way of keeping business going without having to raise cash, would also warrant the Elephant's  "exquisite" redesign, etc. plus the resignation of 4 or 5? executives prior to the latest news (maybe with golden handshake)?

    (Nobody needs to tell me how Evernote processes and stores data, even as a basic user I got the idea. I would like to stress to me the EN webclipper is state-of-the-art -Chrome primary browser, Firefox secondary, Edge just a compulsory app with Win 10). 




    It has often been said that the best solution to Evernote’s financial woes would be to get bought by Google, who are still missing a decent user data management app. MS has OneNote, Apple has Notes (not half bad but only make sense if you are using Apple across the board), Google has Keep... which just doesn’t cut it.

    • Like 1
  21. If anything, it's the simultaneous departure of four top executives that looks like a cause for concern. Whether they didn't see any future for themselves at the company, or there's a shakeup because things didn't go according to strategy, I don't know and won't speculate.

    However, at it's current price structure, and given the number of deeply entrenched long time paid users who have nowhere else to go,  I'd think the service should be able to survive for a long time. Unless they overspend or have financial obligations they can't meet. Again, I won't speculate since I don't know.

    Evernote is easy to get info out of in somewhat usable format, so I wouldn't be super worried either way.

  22. 5 hours ago, DTLow said:

    Is this an ON or Evernote comment?

    I use tables for my Evernote notes; multi column, combined cells, colour background
    This provides a great layout for the note.  The default note layout is sequential, top to bottom.

    Also the size of pdfs and images is constrained by the cell width.

    It was an ON comment but this probably applies to Evernote as well... it’s been a while since I used the Tables in EN, so I am not sure what features it supports. 

    Here’s an example... it’s a template I made for engineering proposal layout review meetings. The meeting notes are on the left, the drawing files and comments are saved in the table on the right.  It’s positioned in such a way that when I print it to a PDF, the notes are on one page and the table on another, so I can send just the meeting notes out without the proposal comments that I may want to keep to myself. The todo and follow up items are tagged with built-in tags (although I may use plaintext tags for that when I feel like it). I may have more than one table, sometimes I use a project-wide ToDo list table that can be sorted by Start date / Due date / Priority / assignee ... it all depends on scope of a particular project, and just how involved and organized I want this to be. 

    Tables are one of my favorite features for organizing data. They make it so much easier to work with records.


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