realistdreamer

This message was very much appreciated.  It was probably too technically detailed for many, but I appreciated the depth and candor.  Until trust is rebuilt with some of the potential evangelists turned skeptics, I think the detail is the preferred route.  

@Federico Simionato Thanks for this update and the blog post about the work your team is doing under the hood.  

I can confirm updatenote is not working for TaskClone as notes are not being updated.  I don't know what the fix was for Readwise, but @bwydooghs initial post was about the updatenote method.  Some technical detail here, the stackoverflow post or contacting TaskClone would be really helpful.  They have a support request open regarding the same.

1 hour ago, gazumped said:

Filterize is maintaining ToC notes for me - that's searching (I guess) for notes matching a test,  then replacing the existing ToC content with links to the qualifying notes.  So I think that qualifies as either creating a new note with content,  or editing an existing note content.

Thanks for this.  Turns out they don't edit notes at all at least not via the API.

From filterize:

Quote

 

We store and process only necessary data like your notebook and tag names, but not the content of your notes.

Filterize cannot delete your notes, tags or notebooks permanently. It will not remove or replace your note content.

 

What their TOC or Dashboard does - according to their site - is use a query from Evernote's search syntax, that is then auto-updated by Evernote when the results of that query change.  Very clever,  but not editing a note.

On 8/15/2023 at 1:56 PM, gazumped said:

1. Backupery creates enex files from notebooks
2. Filterize adds tags, moves notes between notebooks and maintains themed 'table of contents' notes with (forinstance) "all tasks due in the next 7 days"
3. Postach.io converts existing notes into blog pages" - all of which is done by them -not me- as a new edit is syncing

@gazumped, just to clarify as I'm not very familiar - You're not using any of these services to actually edit Evernote note content?  From my reading they are reading notes, adding metadata (tags), moving notes, and converting notes.  Is that right? 

I ask because I don't believe any 3rd party app is currently able to edit a note under any circumstances, closed or not (which is different than indicated previously).  I'm looking for any contrary evidence but haven't heard any.  As this is a result of RTE (I believe), I'm posting here. 

43 minutes ago, gazumped said:

I do interact with Evernote staff - they're mainly friendly and as helpful as they can be,  and my last couple of tickets got cleared within a few days. No big drama.  Sorry if that's not your experience.

Glad to hear your experiences were successful.  I haven't had staff be anything but friendly in my interactions over several years.

Thanks for your efforts at assistance. 

I'll wait to see if staff seeks to provide the updates indicated and requested here since other channels have been unsuccessful.

39 minutes ago, gazumped said:

I'm not clear where you're going with this - do you have an app that won't work with v10? Do you need access for scripted activities? Like I said earlier - you're best off talking to Evernote about all the above.  We're mostly only users here.

Thanks for your message.  This post was started by staff to gather feedback on experiences and impacts of RTE.  As part of that discussion, Evernote staff posted several messages including messages indicating that they would respond in the future after "talking to product" and workarounds beyond "retry and backoff strategies".  Where I'm going with this is following up on the responses we've not heard. 

When you say "talking to Evernote", what other strategies are you aware to do that?  Have you tried "talking with customer support" about such issues?"  I have.  Have you tried talking with developer support, or stackoverflow?  I have.  Have you tried submitting tickets as a customer or developer?  I have.  It's best I remain polite and not speak about those efforts.

In more than 2 apps and internal testing with two API keys, the "workaround" of making sure notes are "closed" before updating is not working reliably (if at all) which suggests the API is not working reliably.  Again, the issue is the impact of RTE on the ability update notes via the API.  Seems like reasonable feedback on a post dedicated to such, which staff has already responded to. 

 I'm not clear on how you use the services you indicated, but I'm aware that they all can be used without the need to update existing notes, so not sure whether you're facing this issue.

In any event, what I seek is the clarity that the relevant staff indicated they were seeking to provide.  I'm also discussing these concerns with fellow users, which I thought was one of the purposes of forums. 

8 hours ago, gazumped said:

There was a little fuss about it starting a few years ago - https://www.engadget.com/evernote-cross-platform-note-taking-app-redesign-interview-130026972.html (October 2020)

Read the article and still a bit confused at the comment.  In 2020, no one would have thought "Legacy apps" meant the API.  The API is access to the database that stores everything.  If there is an Evernote, there is a database.  I've never heard anyone describe an API as a Legacy app until now, nor have I seen any going concern company deprecate an API without having a different one available.  Sure, companies incorporate new data structures and need to change or rewrite their API.  Maybe they even charge for the privilege.  They don't eliminate one without having another. 

7 minutes ago, gazumped said:

You mean the 'deprecated and unsupported' move a couple of years ago wasn't enough of a clue?

Guess I missed that one.  Do you have a link? 

I will say the state of the app center and developer site has indeed been a clue, but there has been relatively consistent support available for the API until the most recent layoffs.  I understood the need to focus on the core app from a stability and unification standpoint.  I trusted Ian to let the API limp along until it could be addressed more fully.  However, I continue to find it hard to believe that Evernote would forgo an API entirely in an environment where Notion, OneNote and most they are competing against have one.  But, if the technical debt is that bad and the band aid and glue sticks aren't worth it, I'd just appreciate the clarity.

On 5/15/2023 at 1:42 PM, Scott T. said:

@realistdreamer I was looking at our connection logs today and I see large bursts of traffic coming from various API keys. This seems to indicate that on update failure, third party clients are retrying over and over again, sometimes multiple times a second. API keys have limits on the number of calls per user per key. So if the client does not implement a retry backoff strategy, it can very quickly hit the rate limit. 

Our devs were discussing the issue today and we'll be talking to product as well about what to do next. But in the meantime, it seems that evaluating your retry logic would be a good way to handle the problem for now. 

I am replying to this comment as it's the last on this issue by Evernote staff @Scott T. or @Federico Simionato.  

We were advised that after RTE, if a note was "closed" it could be edited by Legacy apps (AKA the API).  Since that time, there is another thread suggesting the API can't update notes at all.  Developers are told to go to Stackoverflow for help, but the same has been posted there with no response since June (2 months at this time).  

Back in May, staff indicated the decision was made NOT to deprecate all ability for updates via the API, but that the decision was "at least not at this time."  Has this changed?

Before we invest in retry backoff strategies or other logic, it would be good to get an update on the "talking to product as well about what to do next," you mention above.

More specifically,

1. Is the plan to continue to allow API apps to update notes (such that users can actually interact with those updates)?
2. If so, is there a consistent way for apps to have their updates added since having the note "closed" is not working (multiple user reports, stackoverflow posts and testing)?
3. If the plan is to discontinue updates via the API, can Evernote let consumers know that a) this is a thing and b) how long they can expect to live without the integrations  being able to update or otherwise interact with notes?

Why this matters

While I have all kinds of "feelings" about this as a developer, I know as an avid Evernote user, it matters.  The entire trend of the industry (except Apple) is to allow relatively easy integrations to support use cases not supported by the base software.  Evernote was a pioneer in this area (see defunct app center) and so many users have developed use cases they rely on and don't expect Evernote to solve everything.  If this part of Evernote's value proposition is changing, users ought to know.  

Users are leaving not just because Evernote is not meeting their expectations, but because they don't know what expectations to have in the first place.  They can't expect Evernote to stay the same and they don't know how to expect it will change.

I have all kinds of sympathy for the technical debt being carried on the front end and especially on the backend.  I know hard choices have to be made and everything has pros and cons.  Evernote's a private company that doesn't need to please the markets yet.  It could live with a bit more transparency, especially if you're going to break something important to add something else.  If "Legacy" apps are not important at this time, I'm sure users and developers alike want to know.

We appreciate the hosting of these forums to discuss these issues.  

13 minutes ago, Faisal Malallah said:

I use a service to sync todos between Evernote and Todoist called Pleexy. Which obviously relies on the Evernote and Todoist APIs. 

The service has been working beautifully until RTE was implemented and now this service is completely broken and with it goes my productivity system 

Pleexy should only require the note be closed to update the status of the checkbox. 

Does closing the note not work? 

On 5/12/2023 at 11:27 AM, Scott T. said:

@agsteele is basically right, @realistdreamer. If there is an active RTE session on a note, an update via our API will fail due to the note being locked for writing by the RTE session. The session holds the lock due to the constant real-time updates being sent to the server and applied to the note

. . . 

I will get back once I have more information.

@Scott T. and @agsteele, in talking with others that use IFTTT and Zapier, they are having similar issues as would be expected with services that use the API.   This could be a hefty chunk of the Evernote user base.  Historically, we suffered with note conflicts, but this only happened if edits were simultaneously being made by the user and the API.  Now, the note can just be "open" on any device and the API update fails.  In testing today, we got a "Rate Limit" error on the open note, which made no sense because closed notes were processed fine.

Seems like something worthy of a solution, so thanks for committing to get back to us when there's an update.

11 hours ago, Ray Sidney-Smith said:

Realistically, the existing dev.evernote.com isn't going to be touched until they decide to do something with the API. It hadn't been updated in years, why start now? Lol.

Before the acquisition, I understand they were "planning" what to do with the API so they could incorporate things like Tasks.  Building a new API with something different than Thrift is a well worn path.  However, transitioning all the apps that depend on that transition being successful will be a herculean effort.  Having both APIs partially operational at the same time also seems like a huge headache (although they are using ENML and another format simultaneously now).  My larger fear is that being a mobile-first company, BS may de-prioritize integrations altogether.  To your point, EN had not touched the dev site for years and has a app marketplace that exists in a similar state.  Why start now?

We all know Evernote's API is outdated. What many don't know is they haven't updated the documentation in years so it doesn't reflect the currently reality of the product. 

Every single app that uses the API is a Legacy app and at risk of breaking since version 10 was released. 

Ian said "the backend needs some love" but that love has never been documented or accessible to developers. Early on, Evernote's detailed API made it the note app with the most integrations. That is already changing and if this isn't addressed, it will accelerate that change while breaking the existing integrations that haven't given up. This technical debt is assuredly a headache for the company too. 

6 minutes ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Possibly this post up the thread a way":

 

Thanks for this.  Sounds like a real pain for Evernote to manage.  But, until there is an API for the "new format", every 3rd party integration is a Legacy App.  That can't be good.

11 minutes ago, agsteele said:

I'm sure @Scott T.will be able to answer for certain but I think that the API access is effectively a Legacy application. Legacy apps are locked out of a note that is open in RTE. That seems to be what you are describing.

I hope you're wrong, but honestly some warning or notification might be a good idea if you plan to disappoint customers and blow up business models of partners.  Change has casualties, but a little notice goes a long way.  Just an idea. 

Release notes for consumers say nothing, which I guess is OK.  Where are release notes for developers?  Let me stop as I feel a rant coming!

Just now, Scott T. said:

Yeah, the dev site is woefully out-of-date. 😞

What specific issues are you seeing? I will ask if we have information or a contact I can get you in touch with.

Scott, thanks for the quick reply.  Our app updates notes after processing the contents.  We are getting errors when trying to update notes using the same API calls we've been using.  Our updates add some text and remove a tag the user added.  Neither is going through.  Here's the error we're getting:

Attempt updateNote where RTE room has already been open for note: [note id - replaced for privacy]
EDAM\Error\EDAMSystemException

Through testing, we found that if the user closes the note (web app and device), there is no issue.  We assume this is because the "RTE room" is closed, but there is no documentation for anything.  If the API could access the "RTE room" that might resolve it but without documentation, we're grasping around in the dark.

Is there any documentation of these changes and the new RTE format for developers?  This change is wreaking havoc on our app and we don't even know where to go for guidance as I see nothing on the developers site.