More Major Text Editor Glitches

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

I've attached a picture of a basic note in which the editor is glitching out terribly. Everything is working fine with the sentence/text at the bottom. But with the bulk of the text in the top half of the picture:

1. If I select it, I cannot delete it with either the delete key or the back space key. Nothing happens when I press delete or back space.
2. If I put my cursor inside that text and press delete, the cursor just moves one space to the right and nothing gets deleted. Huh?
3. If I put my cursor inside that text and press backspace, nothing at all happens.
4. If I put my cursor inside that text and type characters, the characters just appear normally.
5. Some of this behavior disappears and comes back randomly depending if I exit Evernote, reopen the note, close the note, open it in a separate window, etc. I also just tried randomly selecting different portions of the text using either the keyboard or the mouse, while pressing delete and backspace a bunch of times. Sometimes random stuff would actually get deleted!

This might be the biggest glitch I've ever found in the editor... and it seems I encounter a new one every week or so.

 

Question 1: How do I fix this and prevent it from happening again?

Question 2: Please forgive the tone of this, but I would love any Evernote employee to answer/complete this statement directly. [It's about the same sentence I put on another thread.]

 

Evernote users should tolerate these kinds of glitches for ____ more years while Evernote employees focus on adding new features.

[Coach Wade 80]

16 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

 

Evernote users should tolerate these kinds of glitches for ____ more years while Evernote employees focus on adding new features.

 

HAHAHAHAAAAAA!!!! 

This is EXACTLY my problem with the Evernote development staff. They can't make BASIC FUNCTIONALITY like simple cut/paste operations or line wrapping work properly, but they sure want you to use their asinine work chat, don't they? I literally CANNOT WRITE A NOTE in their note writing software, but I can darn sure make a web clipping EVEN THOUGH I DON'T WANT TO, because they installed the web clipper on my computer WITHOUT MY PERMISSION!

The difference is that I DO NOT apologize for my tone. Evernote has been doing this preposterous bullsh!t for at least six years. At some point, we users have the right to be furious with them. How many times have they changed our workflow to make it more "efficient"? How many times have they changed the Android widget around, or moved menu items to an undisclosed location or simply changed the layout of the note boxes making it difficult to use? 

I hope the Evernote developers read this: You have a great product that you INSIST on ***** up. You won't FIX WHAT IS BROKEN because you are OBSESSED with adding new and stupid stuff no one wants. 

Every last one of you should be fired. 

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

@Coach Wade

If you don't use Evernote, what will you use instead? Have you tried MS OneNote or any other competing app? I know MS products have gotten better over the past few years (other than Windows 8), but I still have horrid memories of hotmail, prior MS Office versions, Vista, etc. 

[Coach Wade 80]

23 minutes ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

@Coach Wade

If you don't use Evernote, what will you use instead? Have you tried MS OneNote or any other competing app? I know MS products have gotten better over the past few years (other than Windows 8), but I still have horrid memories of hotmail, prior MS Office versions, Vista, etc. 

Honestly? I don't know. I've put a LOT of time and effort into my Evernote workflow over the last few years. I've written two complete novels and about 250 articles of varying lengths using Evernote. I'm not wild about the idea of changing. I've tried to use OneNote (Tried it today, in fact) and I hate the organizational structure. I've even tried some applications designed specifically for writing fiction, but none of them offer the flexibility to work with my creativity and writing methods. 

If the Evernote Dev staff would just FIX THEIR BROKEN ***** none of this would be an issue. If there were one or two bugs, or one or two changes to workflow, it wouldn't be an issue. But there is literally some major portion of basic functionality broken ALL THE TIME, and there is literally a change to the user workflow in EVERY update. 

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

Why have you stuck with Evernote for so long if you are so frustrated with the glitches? Are all of the alternatives even worse?

I've been getting more and more into Evernote since December, but am now rethinking that decision. I had no idea that the basic handling of text would be so glitchy.

Here's what I need Evernote (or an alternative if anybody can suggest one) to do:

• Handle notes made up of text, lists, tables, PDFs, and JPEGs
• Allow me to organize those notes using at least two layers of "folders" (notebooks and notebook stacks are fine) and tags.
• Work reliably. Not perfectly, but no ridiculous or immortal bugs either.

Another thought: Perhaps I should just move everything into Google Doc files and Google Drive?

[DTLow 5,736]

10 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

Another thought: Perhaps I should just move everything into Google Doc files and Google Drive?

Or maybe not use the Evernote editor for anything except the most basic of notes.

There have been reports of users writing novels using the Evernote editor, but I know there are much better apps for that purpose.

Personally, I value Evernote for its data organization features and multi-platform syncing

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

39 minutes ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

Why have you stuck with Evernote for so long if you are so frustrated with the glitches? Are all of the alternatives even worse?

I've been getting more and more into Evernote since December, but am now rethinking that decision. I had no idea that the basic handling of text would be so glitchy.

Here's what I need Evernote (or an alternative if anybody can suggest one) to do:

• Handle notes made up of text, lists, tables, PDFs, and JPEGs
• Allow me to organize those notes using at least two layers of "folders" (notebooks and notebook stacks are fine) and tags.
• Work reliably. Not perfectly, but no ridiculous or immortal bugs either.

Another thought: Perhaps I should just move everything into Google Doc files and Google Drive?

Everything having to do with computers is glitchy, in my experience. I've experienced data loss in almost every app at some point. I want to say that "notesy" might be an exception over the last 6 or 7 years (?). In your case, what you need is probably out of reach for anything on the market -- it sounds like easy, basic stuff, but even full-on word processors like Word and Pages fall short of one or more "needs." 

In my case, as I have written on these forums and elsewhere, is to be judicious in how much I use features that are unique to Evernote. I separate out things like Excel, PDF, images, and I link to them instead. That's the bare bones approach I use -- the point being that I don't expect the editor to do everything under the sun, so I am not disappointed. In my experience, a lot of apps and ideas promise the holy grail of notetaking nirvana (mixed religions and metaphors here), but no one has delivered yet. Searching for the "perfect" app is a nice hobby, but I wouldn't put too much effort into it.

That said, there are obviously competitors, some of which have markedly improved in recent months. My needs are pretty simple, in terms of the editor, but I need better security (encrypted notes and notebooks if something is going on the cloud), and until Evernote gets that, I need to rely on some of these other apps for much of my work. I'm happy to do so, and I have a workflow that I like now, but, in the end, it is worth noting that no app I have ever used is sufficient on its own.

[Coach Wade 80]

5 hours ago, DTLow said:

Or maybe not use the Evernote editor for anything except the most basic of notes.

There have been reports of users writing novels using the Evernote editor, but I know there are much better apps for that purpose.

Personally, I value Evernote for its data organization features.

As a user who has written four books, three of them in Evernote, I can tell you that there are not "much better apps" for that purpose. It is an individual thing. Some people need a full-blown featureset including a MacGuffin tracker and location descriptor. Some people write novels like screenplays, focusing on dialog and then adding scene information after the fact. One of my best friends gives not a krappen about any of that and sits down with a glass of bourbon and a spiral notebook. 

Evernote matches my particular methodology because it offers the things I USE, such as the ability to write individual scenes and link them into chapters, and doesn't clutter my workflow by making me write full blown character descriptions or excessive labeling. yWriter, for example, was written by a programmer who is also a novelist. His approach to writing is extremely technical and doesn't work for either my fiction or my non-fiction. He is very "Step one, Step two, Step three..." My process is largely organic, making organization critical. 

The data organization features you value are precisely what is important to me as an author. I don't need anything more than an RTF editor just to write. It is the ability to find individual chapters and scenes to drop them into the locations where I decide they fit that makes Evernote work (for a given value of the word "work" that currently includes, "not work at all because I spent my writing time in this stupid forum trying to get the darn thing to function properly") My current work has three timelines occurring simultaneously as a framing device. Trying to remember, over the course of a twenty-year timeline, who said what and when is a difficult task. One of the challenges to an author is maintaining consistency across the work; keeping continuity, while still managing to be creative. 

When it works Evernote allows me to do this. That is why I choose to use it, and it has worked better for me than the $80 Scrivener or even the free yWriter. The problem is that it is totally inconsistent in operation. I'd probably be less sensitive if I were using Evernote just to take notes. I wouldn't care if they popped up obnoxious advertising or fouled up cut/paste if all I were doing was tracking my laundry, but I'm NOT. I am using Evernote during the creative process, which any writer or artist will tell you is a somewhat sensitive process. And yes, we lose our friggin' minds when that process is interrupted. 

Evernote needs to make a decision. Are they a glorified grocery list or not? Because there are dozens, if not hundreds of grocery list applications out there. If they are going to be an RTF editor with data organization features, then they need to stop, just... freaking... STOP... trying to shoehorn everything else into this app. They are breaking basic and critical functions trying to add a bunch of nonsense no one wants. Then they can't get anyone to use their new features, so they interfere with the user's workflow by using intrusive advertising, or sneaking applications onto the user's computer without permission. 

[Coach Wade 80]

6 hours ago, GrumpyMonkey said:

Everything having to do with computers is glitchy, in my experience. I've experienced data loss in almost every app at some point. I want to say that "notesy" might be an exception over the last 6 or 7 years (?). In your case, what you need is probably out of reach for anything on the market -- it sounds like easy, basic stuff, but even full-on word processors like Word and Pages fall short of one or more "needs." 

In my case, as I have written on these forums and elsewhere, is to be judicious in how much I use features that are unique to Evernote. I separate out things like Excel, PDF, images, and I link to them instead. That's the bare bones approach I use -- the point being that I don't expect the editor to do everything under the sun, so I am not disappointed. In my experience, a lot of apps and ideas promise the holy grail of notetaking nirvana (mixed religions and metaphors here), but no one has delivered yet. Searching for the "perfect" app is a nice hobby, but I wouldn't put too much effort into it.

That said, there are obviously competitors, some of which have markedly improved in recent months. My needs are pretty simple, in terms of the editor, but I need better security (encrypted notes and notebooks if something is going on the cloud), and until Evernote gets that, I need to rely on some of these other apps for much of my work. I'm happy to do so, and I have a workflow that I like now, but, in the end, it is worth noting that no app I have ever used is sufficient on its own.

I had an app once that was GREAT! I could just write. It offered RTF editing, so it was easy to drop the things I'd written into the final draft Word document without losing formatting. It was cloud based, so I could proofread on my phone, notate on my tablet, and write on my laptop. 

Then the developers decided that it was necessary to add a chat system. While they were developing this, suddenly the app started stripping spaces out of the text and making proofreading errors. (Sometimes the spellcheck caught these and sometimes it didn't.) The developers ignored that major issue, despite user backlash and begging and literally hundreds of documented bug reports and messages in these forums. Instead, they rewrote the widget and added notification flags, so they could spam users with notices that "There's a New Blog Post!" (about why you should use the chat feature you didn't want and have no need to use.)

As time went on, it became more and more obvious that the developers were way more interested in adding useless features and intrusive advertising to their product than they were in fixing the broken components that interfered with the user's ability to actually put the product in operation. Developers changed color schemes and menus and logos randomly, but cut/paste operations were still nonfunctional. Their representatives constantly assured the users that they were "listening", but then the next update would move a menu, or change the Android layout from vertical to horizontal, or add some other pointless feature, while at the same time the one thing users actually installed the product for Still! Wasn't! Working! Properly!

If Evernote quit wasting their time and resources on that stupid Work Chat and put the time and energy into fixing the bugs in basic functionality, it WOULD be the perfect app (at least for anyone who wants to actually USE it). I don't think I'm guilty of selection bias here; absolutely no one-- not one single person-- installed this app so they can chat on it (And if you DID install it for that reason then please tell me I'm wrong-- anyone?). That's why users install Kik and Whatsapp and Facebook messenger. They do NOT install Evernote for that reason. It was brand suicide for Evernote to commit to that asinine function. 

They COULD have added the encryption features you need. I wouldn't have an issue with that. Data security is important, even though it's not one of the features I prioritize for how I use the app, and you are not the first person in the forums to ask for such a feature. I first saw a request for encryption back in 2011 or 2012. 

They actively chose to ignore you, and every other user requesting a critical function, in favor of work chat. They actively chose to ignore every user complaining about something broken or buggy, in favor of work chat. 

If you want to know why I'm so pissed off at Evernote, that is why. At least Microsoft had the presence of mind to remove the woman responsible for getting rid of the Start Menu from any actual oversight authority. Evernote continues to follow the directions of a technical team with their head stuck in their pelvis. 

The definition of insanity is supposedly doing the same thing multiple times and expecting a different result each time. So who is crazy here? Is it Evernote for continually rolling out new features when the ones they have don't work properly or consistently? Or is it the users, for wasting time for literally YEARS writing message after message excoriating Evernote developers for making these asinine decisions and yet continuing to use this app instead of finally cutting it loose and moving to something else? 

[Coach Wade 80]

8 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

Why have you stuck with Evernote for so long if you are so frustrated with the glitches? Are all of the alternatives even worse?

I've been getting more and more into Evernote since December, but am now rethinking that decision. I had no idea that the basic handling of text would be so glitchy.

Here's what I need Evernote (or an alternative if anybody can suggest one) to do:

• Handle notes made up of text, lists, tables, PDFs, and JPEGs
• Allow me to organize those notes using at least two layers of "folders" (notebooks and notebook stacks are fine) and tags.
• Work reliably. Not perfectly, but no ridiculous or immortal bugs either.

Another thought: Perhaps I should just move everything into Google Doc files and Google Drive?

Because I use Evernote as a part of my creative process I'm probably more sensitive to disruptions in how it works. I've actually ended up in the sunk costs fallacy-- I have 250,000 words spread across 350ish notes. Every time I add a note, I increase the sunk cost of how much effort I've put into Evernote, and that makes me think maybe it's not so awful. Maybe the next update will finally fix just enough that I can just work without interruption.

I write on my laptop (sometimes now on my tablet, now that I have a 2-in-1.) I notate (move scenes, outline, make annotated descriptions of scenes and timelines) on my tablet. I edit and proofread on my phone. This is because my laptop usually sits on my desk in my office, my tablet goes some places with me, and my phone is always within arm's reach. 

When I write:

I have a notebook--

"In the Blood" 

Below that I have various notes:

Character Biography - Jonathon Carpenter Harris

Character Biography - Jamay Siskin

Outline

General notes (When I think of interesting metaphors or have an idea for a scene, I jot it here.)

Prologue

Chapter One

Chapter Two

Chapter Three... etc.

I don't waste time with tagging. My experience is that tagging is a waste of time unless you are perfectly consistent. (For example, I also write Conservative nonfiction, So I found that tagging articles on the Second Amendment meant that I had to tag, "2nd Amendment, Second Amendment, Guns, Gun Rights, Gun Control, Constitution, NRA etc..." I was spending all my dang time writing tags and none of it writing articles. Your mileage may vary.)

Google Docs doesn't work well for me, although I am doing something new with this particular work of fiction in that I'm using Google Docs for my final draft and sharing the working URL, inviting comments from anyone who reads the work. (If you are interested, the work is HERE.)

What works WELL in Evernote is the ability to have multiple chapters open and switch between them easily. Particularly when trying to keep consistency within a timeline, sometimes you forget-- Was it Bender or Kitty who said he hated tattoos? I need to jump back to chapter four and check that really quick. In Evernote, this is a simple matter of clicking on the note (or tapping on it on my tablet or phone) and scanning around until I find the info I'm looking for. 

When I wrote each chapter in its individual Word document, I had to open each individual chapter, wait for it to load, scan through-- drat! Wrong chapter!-- close that one, open another... until I found the right information. Evernote makes that much easier. (Ditto with trying to find and refer to previous non-fiction articles I've written as well.)

Basic handling of text is glitchy for one reason and one reason alone: Evernote developers have wasted their time and resources on adding pointless and ill-used features no one wanted rather than making sure the ONE THING this app is supposed to do was working properly. At this point, I no longer have any sympathy for them. They have literally ignored the users who have been complaining about this since I first began reading this forum in 2010. I vanish for months or years at a time, because it becomes obvious to me that no one in Evernote cares or is listening to the users. I try to muddle through the problems because I don't want to have to move everything to OneNote or some other system, and sometimes for a few weeks things work properly... 

Then they break something else. I come back to the forums and discover another round of freshly-aggravated users furious that basic operations of the app do not work (but isn't the new logo neat?). I add my voice to theirs, a few of the Evernote fanboys try to cut me down or tell me I'm wrong, and then I depart again. 

Eventually, I'll probably give up and stop coming back. I already canceled my subscription and went back to the unpaid account because of Evernote's grabasstic and disorganized approach to application development. At this point I don't think I'll ever go back to a paid account because I don't feel that Evernote has actually earned it. Truthfully, I'm actively campaigning AGAINST people paying them until they get their scheisse together.

I'd like to add to your "letter I would like to read from Evernote". I think it should have one paragraph that says, "We have fired our entire development supervisory team. We realized that they don't listen to the users and insist on forcing the developers to work on idiotic features instead of basic functions. We have finally realized that this is a note taking application, not a chat messenger, and we have taken the technical director out back and buried him face down in an anthill with a funnel in his ass. We're sorry, and those responsible have been sacked."

But let's be honest... We aren't gonna see that. 

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

9 hours ago, DTLow said:

Or maybe not use the Evernote editor for anything except the most basic of notes.

It turns out that I cannot even do this since Evernote cannot reliably delete text.

 

 

9 hours ago, DTLow said:

Personally, I value Evernote for its data organization features.

What are "data organization" features?

 

[DTLow 5,736]

2 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

What are "data organization" features?

Notebooks
Tags, Tag Hierarchy
Dates (Created, Updated, Reminder)
Search with Sort
Cross linking notes

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

6 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Notebooks
Tags, Tag Hierarchy
Dates (Created, Updated, Reminder)
Search with Sort

Is Evernote really the only note-taking app that offers these things?

I remember attempting to figure out OneNote's tagging system and realizing that tagging is totally different across platforms. This prevented me from switching. But there's gotta be one that can handle things like text deletion!

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

6 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

Is Evernote really the only note-taking app that offers these things?

I remember attempting to figure out OneNote's tagging system and realizing that tagging is totally different across platforms. This prevented me from switching. But there's gotta be one that can handle things like text deletion!

No. There are some amazing apps out there that have this kind of functionality, and more, but I don't know of anyone who handles it across platforms. That's where things tend to fall apart, and you end up with OneNote as your best option.

If you use plain text + markdown synced through Dropbox, you have a lot more options available. Once you add in rich text, though, the field narrows.

Evernote does a lot of really nice little things well, and that can often add up to a user experience that is difficult to find elsewhere, depending on your workflow. In the end, there are bound to be frustrations, and you have to weigh these against the benefits in your particular workflow. 

[Coach Wade 80]

35 minutes ago, GrumpyMonkey said:

No. There are some amazing apps out there that have this kind of functionality, and more, but I don't know of anyone who handles it across platforms. That's where things tend to fall apart, and you end up with OneNote as your best option.

If you use plain text + markdown synced through Dropbox, you have a lot more options available. Once you add in rich text, though, the field narrows.

Evernote does a lot of really nice little things well, and that can often add up to a user experience that is difficult to find elsewhere, depending on your workflow. In the end, there are bound to be frustrations, and you have to weigh these against the benefits in your particular workflow. 

And there would be an assload (defined as slightly less than a metric butt tonne) of fewer problems if the development staff stopped farting around with features no one uses or wants, and worked specifically on making the things that make Evernote effective work. 

Cross platform note editing is the number one thing I use. I'll go out on a limb and say it's the primary thing ANYONE is looking for when they hit that install button. If all you need is a grocery list, there are way more gooder apps out there. 

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

2 hours ago, GrumpyMonkey said:

If you use plain text + markdown synced through Dropbox, you have a lot more options available. Once you add in rich text, though, the field narrows.

What's "plain text + markdown" ?

 

2 hours ago, GrumpyMonkey said:

Evernote does a lot of really nice little things well... there are bound to be frustrations, and you have to weigh these against the benefits in your particular workflow. 

I agree that the basic idea of Evernote is fantastic and it does many things well. But when a note-taking app fails terribly at ultra basic functions like displaying and deleting text, I find it hard to view those as frustrations that are "bound" to happen. I think a more plausible explanation is that Evernote prioritizes the addition of new features (e.g. colorful tagging) over having reliable key features (e.g. backspace).

Btw, I'd love to hear anything from any Evernote employee in this thread!

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

42 minutes ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

What's "plain text + markdown" ?

 

I agree that the basic idea of Evernote is fantastic and it does many things well. But when a note-taking app fails terribly at ultra basic functions like displaying and deleting text, I find it hard to view those as frustrations that are "bound" to happen. I think a more plausible explanation is that Evernote prioritizes the addition of new features (e.g. colorful tagging) over having reliable key features (e.g. backspace).

Btw, I'd love to hear anything from any Evernote employee in this thread!

 

On plain text and markdown in Evernote.

http://www.christopher-mayo.com/?p=1564

On Evernote's priorities and the editor.

https://blog.evernote.com/blog/2015/09/29/a-note-from-chris-oneill/

I don't think Evernote is prioritizing new features anymore, but I am not privy to those conversations. It seems to me that the apps have markedly improved. So, that's a good thing.

However, the editor is still plagued with some of the same problems (bullet lists, for example) it has had since I joined way back in 2008. I don't know why. It's never been something that has vexed me terribly much, and if past precedent is any indication of future possibilities, I am guessing it won't suddenly get better anytime soon. It doesn't seem to be a simple problem of getting John to stop fiddling around with "work chat" and help Bill fix the editor -- there is something systemic going on that is so intractible that no one has managed to figure it out yet. At any rate, they know what is wrong, so there isn't much point in dumping vitriol on them.

In the end, I figure you have to work with what you have, and if Evernote's editor problems push you to another app, then that's what you have to do. As the CEO says, if they aren't delivering what you want, shame on them. 

http://www.theverge.com/2016/5/4/11584764/evernote-ceo-chris-oneill-interview

 

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

2 hours ago, GrumpyMonkey said:

However, the editor is still plagued with some of the same problems (bullet lists, for example) it has had since I joined way back in 2008... I am guessing it won't suddenly get better anytime soon. It doesn't seem to be a simple problem of getting John to stop fiddling around with "work chat" and help Bill fix the editor -- there is something systemic going on that is so intractible that no one has managed to figure it out yet.

That's incredibly disheartening.

You're saying that Evernote users have suffered with crummy bullet lists for eight years and the Evernote team has proven incapable of fixing this for the whole time? And that this problem is going to persist for the foreseeable future? Then I want to rephrase my fill-in-the-blank sentence to:

Evernote users should tolerate these kinds of glitches for ____ more years decades while Evernote employees focus on adding new features.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,937]

On 5/27/2016 at 8:29 AM, Coach Wade said:

As a user who has written four books, three of them in Evernote, I can tell you that there are not "much better apps" for that purpose. It is an individual thing. . . .

Evernote matches my particular methodology because it offers the things I USE, such as the ability to write individual scenes and link them into chapters, and doesn't clutter my workflow by making me write full blown character descriptions or excessive labeling. . . .

The data organization features you value are precisely what is important to me as an author. . . . One of the challenges to an author is maintaining consistency across the work; keeping continuity, while still managing to be creative. 

When it works Evernote allows me to do this. . . . I'd probably be less sensitive if I were using Evernote just to take notes. . . . I am using Evernote during the creative process, which any writer or artist will tell you is a somewhat sensitive process. . . .

Evernote needs to make a decision. Are they a glorified grocery list or not? Because there are dozens, if not hundreds of grocery list applications out there. If they are going to be an RTF editor with data organization features, then they need to stop, just... freaking... STOP... trying to shoehorn everything else into this app. They are breaking basic and critical functions trying to add a bunch of nonsense no one wants. Then they can't get anyone to use their new features, so they interfere with the user's workflow by using intrusive advertising, or sneaking applications onto the user's computer without permission. 

I know I'm going to be sorry for this, but I wonder where it is, Coach, that Evernote promised that it would be "an RTF editor with data organization features"? It seems to me that it is much more a data organizer with a middling RTF editor included. You mention (elided in the above excerpted quote) that you've tried Scrivener and other programs and found them even more lacking. It's a shame that the best tool you can find doesn't meet your purposes all that well, but was it really designed with those purposes in mind?

I use EN to take notes toward nonfiction projects; I can't imagine using it for anything as complex as writing a novel. But that's just me. I don't expect software that's intended to serve a broad set of users with widely varying needs to meet my needs precisely, or to have no features in it that go beyond my needs. Why should it?  Shaw said something like, "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." But Coach, I think you may have bumped up against the limits of that axiom.

[DTLow 5,736]

 

On May 30, 2016 at 10:16 AM, Dave-in-Decatur said:

I know I'm going to be sorry for this

Poking a hornets nest; What can possibly go wrong

>>Shaw said something like, "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man."

Thats a fantastic quote - thanks for sharing.  It applies to how I conduct myself and my perception of others (maybe even CW)

[Coach Wade 80]

On 5/30/2016 at 1:16 PM, Dave-in-Decatur said:

I know I'm going to be sorry for this, but I wonder where it is, Coach, that Evernote promised that it would be "an RTF editor with data organization features"? It seems to me that it is much more a data organizer with a middling RTF editor included. You mention (elided in the above excerpted quote) that you've tried Scrivener and other programs and found them even more lacking. It's a shame that the best tool you can find doesn't meet your purposes all that well, but was it really designed with those purposes in mind?

I use EN to take notes toward nonfiction projects; I can't imagine using it for anything as complex as writing a novel. But that's just me. I don't expect software that's intended to serve a broad set of users with widely varying needs to meet my needs precisely, or to have no features in it that go beyond my needs. Why should it?  Shaw said something like, "The reasonable man adapts himself to the world; the unreasonable one persists in trying to adapt the world to himself. Therefore, all progress depends on the unreasonable man." But Coach, I think you may have bumped up against the limits of that axiom.

Valid questions, Dave. 

Evernote bills itself as a cross-platform RTF editor. It has those features. I hit the B and my text is bold-faced. I hit the I and it becomes italicized. It is a note taking application. When searching the app stores for "Note taking" Evernote comes up as one of the first hits. I don't think it's too much to ask that the note taking functions work properly 

One thing I've tried to make clear is that I am not asking for Evernote to do anything beyond what the developers state it can do. I don't want it to make me a cup of coffee. I want to be able to write between three and nine thousand words in one note, save those notes into a notebook, and use those notebooks to organize my writing. Evernote is supposed to be able to do these things. For the most part, it does. 

I do not think it is unreasonable to ask that this app do basic text editing features like backspace. I also don't think it is unreasonable to be annoyed that it took five years to fix one bug in the editor that was making it virtually unusable for cross platform editing. Cross platform editing is one of the features Evernote advertises, so I would definitely expect that to work properly. (I am referring to the bug that stripped spaces out of notes that were created on a PC and edited on an Android or iOs device. It was fixed accidentally after literally five years of users complaining about it.) Nor do I think it is unreasonable to be even more annoyed that these bugs are not fixed because the development team is rolling out features no one wanted or asked for such as a chat system. 

You can, as DTLow claims, accuse me of throwing tantrums. (Don't be like him. He's a jerk.) But the reality is that I have a piece of software that does exactly what I want it to do. So well, in fact, that I have written over a quarter million words using it. It works better than anything else I have tried to use. However, it is not yet perfect, and the things I need it to do are not obscure things. They are basic functionality that the editor is supposed to be capable of. @WeCanLearnAnything has documented a bug with backspace, for crying out loud. What functions could possibly be more basic than the ability to erase a typo? If we can't even do that using the app, why in God's name would we run it at all?

I am here not because I hate Evernote, but because I love it. I am here because I am committed to using Evernote to write. However, because of that commitment, I want to light a fire under the development staff and make them realize that they have alienated large groups of their users by ignoring feature requests and bug reports and instead working on what the majority seems to feel are asinine side projects. (And I share this opinion.)

Scrivener is an excellent piece of software, but the creative process is, let's be honest, a total hemorrhoid. Some days I sit down to write and I can't stop myself. Other days, every friggin' word feels like I'm dragging my brain across a nail file. Minor bugs and problems with the software jar me out of the suspension of disbelief, almost the 'trance', in which I write. Evernote just works better for me than anything else. 

By the way, in a burst of irony-- during my Master's degree, my college used a forum editor that was awful. It literally did not interface with MS Word. (Apparently it didn't translate the markup properly.) There were all sorts of obnoxious workarounds recommended, such as cutting/pasting into a Google Docs document and then cutting/pasting from there into the forum. (I don't know why that worked, just that it did.) Of course, you don't want to type directly into the forum, because if the form crashes or something goes wrong, you'll lose your work. 

My solution? I used Evernote. It worked seamlessly to write in Evernote and then cut/paste from there into the University forum software. In fact, I turned several of my classmates on to Evernote as a result of this. 

When Evernote works it is everything that I could ask for. 

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,937]

Thanks for your reply, Coach. I have a couple of comments, then I think I'm going to move on to something that feels more work-like.  

Quote

 @WeCanLearnAnything has documented a bug with backspace, for crying out loud. What functions could possibly be more basic than the ability to erase a typo? If we can't even do that using the app, why in God's name would we run it at all?

It's a shame that no one has yet responded to the original issue here.  @WeCanLearnAnything, is this still happening? I just tried to reproduce it, using the text from the OP's post, and backspace and delete worked fine; nor have I had anything resembling this happen in EN (though I've had other weird problems which I assume are unique to me, like this one and this one). Even the OP said its occurrence was random. Obviously a solution needs to be found; but obviously also it's not a widely occurring problem, and may not be a bug in EN at all. The occurrence of one nearly-unreproducible problem does not mean EN's editor is in hopeless need of fixing. (The fact that I can't move from paragraph to paragraph with Ctrl+Up/Down Arrow or some other shortcut probably does need fixing, as do other issues; but I'm coming to terms with the fact that EN as an RTF editor is only middling quality at best, and I'll have to work around a few things.)

Quote

I want to light a fire under the development staff and make them realize that they have alienated large groups of their users by ignoring feature requests and bug reports and instead working on what the majority seems to feel are asinine side projects. (And I share this opinion.) . . . .

I also don't think it is unreasonable to be annoyed that it took five years to fix one bug in the editor that was making it virtually unusable for cross platform editing. . . . (I am referring to the bug that stripped spaces out of notes that were created on a PC and edited on an Android or iOs device. It was fixed accidentally after literally five years of users complaining about it.) Nor do I think it is unreasonable to be even more annoyed that these bugs are not fixed because the development team is rolling out features no one wanted or asked for such as a chat system.

I haven't encountered the space-stripping bug, so I can't comment on that. I certainly agree that cross-platform editing ought to work properly, and that serious bugs should be fixed ASAP. However, I'm not sure how one determines "what the majority seems to feel are asinine side projects" or what are "features no one wanted or asked for." The majority of posts on a user-support forum is not an accurate measure of anything, except what are the most common complaints in need of fixing. Even the absence of an item from a feature-request forum can't be taken to mean that no one wants that feature, or even that the majority don't want it. Honestly, with a lot of software I often find out that I want a feature when the developers create it!

OK, that's enough. I guess my bottom line would be, hyperbole is great stuff (in limited quantities) in certain types of literature. But I don't see exaggerated claims about what everyone or no one experiences or wants as being useful in a forum like this. Yelling sells airtime on radio talk shows; in this kind of venue it only sounds like--well, like tantrums. And I can't see how any user here has any right to tell a fellow user to shut up.

Actually, having quoted Shaw, let me finish with one that I've seen attributed to Lincoln, but could come from elsewhere (and which could probably be applied in more than one direction in this conversation, depending on people's perceptions; and which refers to a whole animal, not to any part of its anatomy): "If someone tells you you're a horse, ignore him. If two people tell you you're a horse, think it over. If three people tell you you're a horse--buy a saddle."

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

8 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

It's a shame that no one has yet responded to the original issue here.  @WeCanLearnAnything, is this still happening?

 

Yes. The issue is still exactly the same as in the original post.

[DTLow 5,736]

11 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

 

Yes. The issue is still exactly the same as in the original post.

Sorry, the discussion got sidetracked and lost focus

My solution would be to select the entire text, and Simplify Formatting / Make Plain Text

These are options on the Mac Format menu, and remove the underlying html code which sometimes gets messed up 

 

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

5 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Sorry, the discussion got sidetracked.

My solution would be to select the entire text, and Simplify Formatting / Make Plain Text

These are options on the Mac Format menu, and remove the underlying html code which sometimes gets messed up 

 

Just tried both the "Remove Formatting" and the "Simply Formatting". The delete/backspace issues continue with both.

[DTLow 5,736]

4 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

Just tried both the "Remove Formatting" and the "Simply Formatting". The delete/backspace issues continue with both.

If you can export the note to .enex and post it, I'd take a look at it and see if I can do anything

[Coach Wade 80]

14 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Thanks for your reply, Coach. I have a couple of comments, then I think I'm going to move on to something that feels more work-like.  

It's a shame that no one has yet responded to the original issue here.  @WeCanLearnAnything, is this still happening? I just tried to reproduce it, using the text from the OP's post, and backspace and delete worked fine; nor have I had anything resembling this happen in EN (though I've had other weird problems which I assume are unique to me, like this one and this one). Even the OP said its occurrence was random. Obviously a solution needs to be found; but obviously also it's not a widely occurring problem, and may not be a bug in EN at all. The occurrence of one nearly-unreproducible problem does not mean EN's editor is in hopeless need of fixing. (The fact that I can't move from paragraph to paragraph with Ctrl+Up/Down Arrow or some other shortcut probably does need fixing, as do other issues; but I'm coming to terms with the fact that EN as an RTF editor is only middling quality at best, and I'll have to work around a few things.)

I haven't encountered the space-stripping bug, so I can't comment on that. I certainly agree that cross-platform editing ought to work properly, and that serious bugs should be fixed ASAP. However, I'm not sure how one determines "what the majority seems to feel are asinine side projects" or what are "features no one wanted or asked for." The majority of posts on a user-support forum is not an accurate measure of anything, except what are the most common complaints in need of fixing. Even the absence of an item from a feature-request forum can't be taken to mean that no one wants that feature, or even that the majority don't want it. Honestly, with a lot of software I often find out that I want a feature when the developers create it!

OK, that's enough. I guess my bottom line would be, hyperbole is great stuff (in limited quantities) in certain types of literature. But I don't see exaggerated claims about what everyone or no one experiences or wants as being useful in a forum like this. Yelling sells airtime on radio talk shows; in this kind of venue it only sounds like--well, like tantrums. And I can't see how any user here has any right to tell a fellow user to shut up.

Actually, having quoted Shaw, let me finish with one that I've seen attributed to Lincoln, but could come from elsewhere (and which could probably be applied in more than one direction in this conversation, depending on people's perceptions; and which refers to a whole animal, not to any part of its anatomy): "If someone tells you you're a horse, ignore him. If two people tell you you're a horse, think it over. If three people tell you you're a horse--buy a saddle."

I like your quotes, Dave. I do want to point out that it's not my opinion that nobody asked for or wanted Work Chat. Evernote forums on Reddit are filled with people asking how to shut it off. You'll note that no one is logging bugs for it-- I strongly doubt that is because it doesn't have any. It seems to be because no one is using it. 

For all my complaining, not one single person has come forward to claim that Work Chat is integral to their use of Evernote. Or even that they use it. Not a single one. Most telling, an Evernote employee (Emerick, I believe) posted this to me yesterday. You'll note that the interviewer doesn't speak very highly of Work Chat, and even the CEO of Evernote can't actually justify the resources wasted on it. He talks in a circle and throws out some buzzwords, but he doesn't actually say anything that indicates a single one of the purported 140,000 new users Evernote gets every day actually installed the app to chat on it. 

As for telling other users to shut up. I'm guilty. I'm not even contrite about it. When someone tries to tell me I'm "throwing a tantrum" because I expect the software I pay for to work properly, I'm going to give them both barrels. When I document five years of being ignored by Evernote development staff, and I'm told my concerns are unimportant, I will pointedly remind that person that I'm not interested in their opinion of my opinion. 

Please notice that those who spoke to me respectfully, like you, are treated with respect in return. Those who do not, are treated with the same level of disrespect they proffer to me. And now that I've discovered the block feature, I don't even need to worry so much about that. I can go on my merry way. 

Whee!

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

17 hours ago, DTLow said:

If you can export the note to .enex and post it, I'd take a look at it and see if I can do anything

I did just export the file, but apparently I am unable to remove my personal information from the file. (See picture below.) If there's some way of removing my name and location from the exported file, I'd certainly take you up on your offer... especially since no Evernote employee has answered anything in this thread.

 

Recent discoveries:

1. I copied the text into a new note. The same glitches occur.
2. The same glitches occur when I tried to use delete and backspace on my laptop's Evernote.
3. The same glitches did not occur when I tried editing the note in the Evernote browser version. Everything worked fine there. I guess this means there's probably a bug with the Windows version? I haven't tried on a Mac or other platform yet.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,937]

A couple of questions for clarity, WeCanLearnAnything: Is this particular text the only one in which this problem occurs, or does it happen more generally while writing and editing? Also, what's the source of this text: did you type it directly into EN, or copy it from somewhere else? Conceivably it has some unexpected formatting that causes the problems.

Also, WRT the exported .enex file, I created one and took a look at it. It's an XML file, I think, and can be edited in Notepad or any other text editor. You should be able to just remove the <author> ... </author> material near the end, or anything else that needs to be confidential. I tried that, and EN re-imported the note just fine.

[Austin G 527]

On 5/26/2016 at 0:40 AM, WeCanLearnAnything said:

Question 1: How do I fix this and prevent it from happening again?

Not enough info at the moment to determine that, but I'm happy to look into this. @WeCanLearnAnything I'm sorry for jumping late into the game on this one.... 

Do you happen to recall is this text was typed directly into Evernote, or copy/pasted from another source? I skimmed the previous posts, but didn't find that info. 

17 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

I copied the text into a new note. The same glitches occur.

If you didn't already, try the pasting paste and match style (ctrl+shift+v) vs ctr+v option. 

17 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

If there's some way of removing my name and location from the exported file,

These fields can be edited from the note info section. Right-Click the note and select duplicate. Access the note info of the duplicate and erase any info you do not want to share. Or erase the info from the original if you do not need this info maintained. 

 

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

7 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

A couple of questions for clarity, WeCanLearnAnything: Is this particular text the only one in which this problem occurs, or does it happen more generally while writing and editing? Also, what's the source of this text: did you type it directly into EN, or copy it from somewhere else? Conceivably it has some unexpected formatting that causes the problems.

 

1 hour ago, Austin G said:

Do you happen to recall is this text was typed directly into Evernote, or copy/pasted from another source? I skimmed the previous posts, but didn't find that info. 

 

 

I copy-pasted the text into Evernote from a website.

This is the only note in which I've experienced the backspace/delete glitches.

 

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

7 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Also, WRT the exported .enex file, I created one and took a look at it. It's an XML file, I think, and can be edited in Notepad or any other text editor. You should be able to just remove the <author> ... </author> material near the end, or anything else that needs to be confidential. I tried that, and EN re-imported the note just fine.

 

1 hour ago, Austin G said:

If you didn't already, try the pasting paste and match style (ctrl+shift+v) vs ctr+v option. 

These fields can be edited from the note info section. Right-Click the note and select duplicate. Access the note info of the duplicate and erase any info you do not want to share. Or erase the info from the original if you do not need this info maintained. 

Ok, I think I removed all personal info from the exported file and posted it here. [There are first and last names in there, but they are from a public website, so I think that should not be a problem.]

EDIT 1: New glitch found. I just tried the ctrl+shift+v method of pasting at the bottom of the attached note, but nothing happened. While trying to paste, I went to the bottom of the attached note. When I pressed enter, the cursor would not move down a line. Instead, nothing happened at all. I could type new characters, though, but deleting them proved impossible. I cannot seem to put my cursor "below" the note content that's already in there.

EDIT 2: I tried the ctrl+shift+v method of pasting in a new note and it removed all the formatting, but otherwise that new note seems to be working just fine.

Delete & Backspace Glitch.enex

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,937]

There's definitely something hinky in this material. I imported it successfully, and I find that, as you say, it does not respond properly to Delete and Backspace. Del moves the cursor right; Backspace doesn't do anything. Curiously, adding Ctrl to either of them does successfully delete a word; and selecting text and then using Del or Backspace also deletes successfully. So the problem is confirmed, but since Austin's on the case now I'll let him try to figure it out!

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

16 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

There's definitely something hinky in this material. I imported it successfully, and I find that, as you say, it does not respond properly to Delete and Backspace. Del moves the cursor right; Backspace doesn't do anything. Curiously, adding Ctrl to either of them does successfully delete a word; and selecting text and then using Del or Backspace also deletes successfully. So the problem is confirmed, but since Austin's on the case now I'll let him try to figure it out!

Thank you for also looking into this!

When you say "... hinky in this material" do you mean there's something wrong with what I copy/pasted or something wrong with Evernote?

A couple other notes:

1. I just tried the CTRL+DELETE method of deleting text and it does seem to work... but NOT for the random text at the top of the note. Totally bizarre that CTRL is necessary for deleting text but it works only sometimes.. How did it occur to you to try this?
2. I also just tried this in the browser note editor. Unlike last time, all glitches were reproduced there.   

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,937]

 

1 hour ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

When you say "... hinky in this material" do you mean there's something wrong with what I copy/pasted or something wrong with Evernote?

Sorry for the unclarity. Since I've never seen this before, and 

19 hours ago, WeCanLearnAnything said:

This is the only note in which I've experienced the backspace/delete glitches.

I concluded there was something hinky in the pasted material in the note, not with the program. But of course the final determination on that remains to be made.

[emerick 155]

The web site data that you pasted into your note contains HTML style information that's incompatible with our editor (because the web site expects to be rendered in a web browser, not a text editor). We try to handle copied HTML as gracefully as possible, but unfortunately there will always be issues like this which is why we supply the "Simplify Formatting" and "Remove Formatting" commands. "Simplify Formatting" is the less aggressive of the two commands and correctly fixed your note for me when I tested it here just now. If "Simplify Formatting" (Ctrl+Space) isn't working for you, it would indicate a problem with your Evernote installation or an environmental issue on your PC, in which case your best course of action is to open a support ticket.

[DTLow 5,736]

1 hour ago, emerick said:

If "Simplify Formatting" (Ctrl+Space) isn't working for you, it would indicate a problem with your Evernote installation or an environmental issue on your PC, in which case your best course of action is to open a support ticket.

I'm also testing this sample
Simplify Formatting / Make Plain Text has always been my go to solution when the html code got convoluted
For this sample, it failed at resolving the problem.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,937]

Interesting. I imported the .enex file again, and again had the problem with Del and Backspace. However, after I did Simplify Formatting (Ctrl+Space), I found that in the reformatted text Del and Backspace worked normally. So, WeCanLearnAnything, maybe that will be the solution for you. Obviously, anything copied and pasted from this source in the future would be something to keep an eye on.

[WeCanLearnAnything 100]

2 hours ago, emerick said:

The web site data that you pasted into your note contains HTML style information that's incompatible with our editor (because the web site expects to be rendered in a web browser, not a text editor). We try to handle copied HTML as gracefully as possible, but unfortunately there will always be issues like this which is why we supply the "Simplify Formatting" and "Remove Formatting" commands. "Simplify Formatting" is the less aggressive of the two commands and correctly fixed your note for me when I tested it here just now. If "Simplify Formatting" (Ctrl+Space) isn't working for you, it would indicate a problem with your Evernote installation or an environmental issue on your PC, in which case your best course of action is to open a support ticket.

I just tried both and neither worked. Also, please see another one of my threads about my failed attempts to submit a support ticket.