(Archived) When filtering by tag, please add that tag when I create a new note

[mrgoerend 89]

If I've filtered my notes by tag (especially when clicking my tag shortcut to pull them up) and I create a new note in that view, please add the tag that I've filtered.

Example: I have a tag called "missing work" (I'm a teacher). When I've filtered for those notes and I hit command-n, I'd like my new note to already have "missing work" as the tag.

[jbenson2 2,149]

I have found Evernote copy feature works well.

It will copy the tags from the original note.

After copying, I hit Ctrl + A, then delete for a clean new note using all the old tags.

[mrgoerend 89]

I have found Evernote copy feature works well.

It will copy the tags from the original note.

After copying, I hit Ctrl + A, then delete for a clean new note using all the old tags.

Hm. That's a good work around, but more steps than I'm looking for.

If I'm in a Notebook and I hit command-n, it creates a new note in that Notebook. I'm just asking for the same if I'm "in" a tag.

[Jackolicious 808]

Good point.

Personally, I feel that Tags are metadata and not data containers.

[mrgoerend 89]

Good point.

Personally, I feel that Tags are metadata and not data containers.

Can you tell me more about that? Give me examples of how you do use and how you don't see them being used.

Here's my use case: I have a Notebook called "Students 2012-2013" where I keep notes about student work (exemplars, etc.), rosters to quickly create a checklist when collecting stuff, and some other "student related" stuff (allergy notices, etc.)

When I collect an assignment, I make a note tagged "missing work" then I create a To Do box for each student who didn't turn the assignment in that way I know who's missing it and I can check it off when I've talked to them about it (I strike through their name when they've turned it in). Then I have my "missing work" tag in my shortcuts (command-2, thanks for that tip) so I can quickly access those notes to have conversations with students.

Can you think of a better way to accomplish what I'm trying out to do?

[Jackolicious 808]

That sounds like a good workflow. I just don't know that it would be prudent in the current UI (or the former for that matter) to automatically apply your missing work tag to a newly created note. That is the functionality you're talking about?

[mrgoerend 89]

That sounds like a good workflow. I just don't know that it would be prudent in the current UI (or the former for that matter) to automatically apply your missing work tag to a newly created note. That is the functionality you're talking about?

That's the functionality I'm talking about. Basically, when "tag view" is being treated like "notebook view" apply a tag to a new note just like you apply the Notebook to a new note.

[jefito 5,598]

Personally, I feel that Tags are metadata and not data containers.

I agree with this pretty strongly, I think: tags are their own data (as well as being metadata for notes).

[Jackolicious 808]

Yeah, it sounds like you want to use tags as a container rather than metadata. Sadly, they weren't built to support that. They are built to be used as lead off points or search aids.

[jefito 5,598]

It is curious, though -- a lot of people hereabouts seem to think of tags as containers. I guess in a sense they are. But since I tend to think of them as adjectives, I usually don't think fo them as containers.

[mrgoerend 89]

Personally, I feel that Tags are metadata and not data containers.

I agree with this pretty strongly, I think: tags are their own data (as well as being metadata for notes).

I guess I still don't understand the difference. Would someone mind explaining the difference?

Are you saying I should have a notebook for "missing work"? The "container" is my Students notebook. The data about the note is that this note is about missing work.

[mrgoerend 89]

Once a tag is used on more than one note doesn't it then become both metadata and a container?

Here's the example: I have a Notebook for Bookmarks. When I clip a bookmark that's about education I tag it "Education." I have ~200 notes with that same metadata. I'd like to be able to share just my Education bookmarks with a colleague. "Education" as a tag is both metadata about the notes but also a container for those notes.

I don't want another notebook for those specific notes.

Really what I want is a smart notebook that's a shareable notebook created from a search. That way I could share just a tag and I don't have to duplicate notes just to be able to share them.

[jefito 5,598]

Consider the physical world analog, and the common notions of note and notebook. A notebook is clearly a container -- it contains notes. In this model, a tag is just a label that we can apply to notes (maybe via keyword, maybe with a physical label), such that a note can have multiple labels, and notes in a notebook can have a different set of tags than other notes. So in this world, a tag is clearly not a container.

Also, in the physical world, a note is stored in exactly one notebook, so it's quite reasonable to say that a notebook contains the notes in it, or that the notebook owns the note. And again, not so with tags : a tag is not a container, so it can't own anything.

I'd say that for me, the above is why I tend to lean towards the "tag is not a container".

In Evernote, though, tags are a little different: we apply the same tag to a number of notes due to the nature of the computer model (which makes it so easy to rename a tag, something that is physically difficult to do in the physical world). And as a categorization tool, you can filter on a tag, and lo, you get a collection of notes -- the ones that have that tag. So there really is an intuitive sense that we can consider tags to be containers of sorts, even though it'd be hard to say that the tags own the notes in any sense, and you can't really move a note from one tag to another (you need to remove a tag and add another instead), and now you're faced with the notion that a note may belong to more than one container at a time (which may surprise you or not).

[mrgoerend 89]

Consider the physical world analog, and the common notions of note and notebook. A notebook is clearly a container -- it contains notes. In this model, a tag is just a label that we can apply to notes (maybe via keyword, maybe with a physical label), such that a note can have multiple labels, and notes in a notebook can have a different set of tags than other notes. So in this world, a tag is clearly not a container.

Also, in the physical world, a note is stored in exactly one notebook, so it's quite reasonable to say that a notebook contains the notes in it, or that the notebook owns the note. And again, not so with tags : a tag is not a container, so it can't own anything.

I'd say that for me, the above is why I tend to lean towards the "tag is not a container".

In Evernote, though, tags are a little different: we apply the same tag to a number of notes due to the nature of the computer model (which makes it so easy to rename a tag, something that is physically difficult to do in the physical world). And as a categorization tool, you can filter on a tag, and lo, you get a collection of notes -- the ones that have that tag. So there really is an intuitive sense that we can consider tags to be containers of sorts, even though it'd be hard to say that the tags own the notes in any sense, and you can't really move a note from one tag to another (you need to remove a tag and add another instead), and now you're faced with the notion that a note may belong to more than one container at a time (which may surprise you or not).

That all makes sense. I guess that's why I'm confused to hear you and Jack say, "Personally, I feel that Tags are metadata and not data containers." As you explained, tags -- in the context of Evernote -- are quite obviously both metadata and data containers.

It's frustrating that Evernote won't fully embrace this affordance of digital. Here's another example:

I have two Notebooks: Resource Shelf and Student Resources. Our Language Arts team collects all our resources into the Resource Shelf and when we're working on a particular project, we copy the notes students will find useful into the Student Resources notebook that is publicly viewable by students. At that point, I have duplicated copies of a bunch of notes. It would be much easier if I could just create a "Smart Notebook" from a tag. That way, I'd have one copy of the note in my Resource Shelf notebook and I'd tag it "student resource" and they could see all of those notes.

Because with digital tags can (and are) both metadata and containers, I think Evernote should treat them as such.

[jefito 5,598]

I didn't actually say that they "are" containers, I said that "we can consider" them as containers. That being said, I understand what you're asking for, I just don't know the technical implications behind such a concept.

[mrgoerend 89]

I didn't actually say that they "are" containers, I said that "we can consider" them as containers. That being said, I understand what you're asking for, I just don't know the technical implications behind such a concept.

If they're used as containers, it'd be hard to say they aren't containers And I guess that's my point: Evernote isn't analog, so while the analogy works as a start, one reason I use Evernote and not analog notebooks is because of the affordances of digital, tags/labels being able to be used as containers being of them.