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(Archived) Why I think that Evernote might be growing complacent?


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I have been using Evernote for almost 6 months, and i think it is a great software. But, as much as there are good things, i think that there are somethings that absolutely turn me off, some really simple things, which i think needs to be mentioned here.

  • Unfixed bug : Evernote has made 3 releases since i first reported this bug to tech support/posted on the forum. I am yet to get a solution. The problem continues.
  • Location in Desktop Version: In the desktop version, who in his sane mind would want to type latitude and longitude, when he can simply type the name of location? If evernote cannot fix this issue, may as well remove this feature.
  • Missing Note History changes - A backup/snapshot every 8 hours? : You got to be kidding me: If this is the standard procedure, it is a sure shot recipe for interim changes, made within the 8 hours to be lost. Yeah, many argue that the user could manually, click the sync feature, but why do it? Aren't there enough cloud services today that automatically sync data changes? Why do we have to keep saying like "I am happy with an obsolescent technology and i need to change my usage style in accordance with it". There are so many people who raise complaints in this forum that say, their changes are not visible in their note history, and i think the problem is directly attributable to this kind of solution.
  • Sync Feature: One of the proud features of Evernote. If one of your devices has not been sync'd with your Evernote account for a long time, you will find that the sync feature is time bound. Not many people have super fast internet, which means that within a time period, if syncing is not complete, Evernote will simply issue an Error saying "Sync Failed", with a red bar on the sync icon. Until the user manually clicks sync again, the device will be stalled.
  • Lack of intelligent Syncing: Fast speed internet is extremely expensive in India, and even if one can afford fast speeds, they are throttled by the draconian "Fair Usage Policy". This calls for intelligent Bandwidth usage. I use dropbox, which is also a cloud service. Now assume, i have 2 devices A and B, linked to a central Server, and A is sync'd with the server, and now i connect B for syncing. Dropbox detects automatically that A and B are linked to the same local network, and automatically switches to a "LAN" mode. By this , what happens is that B does not get updated from the server through the internet, but from A, through the LAN. This makes the syncing process of B faster and also saves up precious internet bandwidth. Evernote still continues to follow the text book method of syncing from the server.
  • Two Factor Authentication: In an era where security threats are continuously increasing, and viruses and malware become more intelligent that sometimes, Anti viruses cannot detect them. How can we sure only with SSL protection? What if the virus has a keylogger that was not detected by my anti virus : The user simply gets a free ride into my account, right?
  • Lack of Implementation of User Feedback: I know this is a great forum, where employees and representatives of Evernote respond to you. The good thing ends there, i suppose. There have been instances, when i have posted feedback, when i get a response stating that the same feedback has been given on other threads. What then stops Evernote from implementing some of these changes, which are very simple, but can do a great deal to enhance productivity, a "term" that Evernote takes pride in.
  • Missing Data across sync'd versions: This is absolutely unacceptable. Some of the changes that i made a few days ago , and which even were sync'd were lost, across multiple device syncing, ideally when there should have been a "Conflicting changes" tag. Subsequently, i read that there was a bug in the release. How is it possible to have a release that allows "loss of data"? This is simply unacceptable.

  • And most importantly, We have all read this a million times in this forum, and there would be some die hard fans of Evernote, who stand up and say each time - "Evernote's system works great for me. I have no problem with it. You instead ought to be working with the way, Evernote is designed for, and so on.." If it works, good for you. But for god's sake, stop counter acting when a user criticises Evernote's flaws. I guess, it is thanks to people like you that Evernote assumes that its system is as solid as diamond and refuses to look at bugs/better implementations of a particular feature.

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Hi Panzerkampfwagen,

Unfixed bug : Evernote has made 3 releases since i first reported this bug to tech support/posted on the forum. I am yet to get a solution. The problem continues.

Not seen that one before myself, Just image notes, or others too?

Maybe they are still working on it, do you know? I certainly don't know. As always, the solution may not make it into the next iteration(s) of a product.

Location in Desktop Version: In the desktop version, who in his sane mind would want to type latitude and longitude, when he can simply type the name of location? If evernote cannot fix this issue, may as well remove this feature.

So, I am assuming you are talking about the Windows Client here?

It is not that easy to add a location, I agree. Hopefully Evernote will look more into it in the future.

A post regarding the location feature in the Windows Client, might shed a bit of light for you:

I don't think it should be removed completely, since there are other EN apps that populate this field, so it is still somewhat useful.

Missing Note History changes - A backup/snapshot every 8 hours? : You got to be kidding me: If this is the standard procedure, it is a sure shot recipe for interim changes, made within the 8 hours to be lost. Yeah, many argue that the user could manually, click the sync feature, but why do it? Aren't there enough cloud services today that automatically sync data changes? Why do we have to keep saying like "I am happy with an obsolescent technology and i need to change my usage style in accordance with it". There are so many people who raise complaints in this forum that say, their changes are not visible in their note history, and i think the problem is directly attributable to this kind of solution.

So, (I'm assuming) there had to be a defined time period in which to take the note history. At whatever point 8 hours was deemed to be the choice. I don't think it is supposed to be the ultimate safeguard for notes, rather an option that you can use if needed.

I'm sure the usual manual backup comments apply here as well.

Sync Feature: One of the proud features of Evernote. If one of your devices has not been sync'd with your Evernote account for a long time, you will find that the sync feature is time bound. Not many people have super fast internet, which means that within a time period, if syncing is not complete, Evernote will simply issue an Error saying "Sync Failed", with a red bar on the sync icon. Until the user manually clicks sync again, the device will be stalled.

Not really sure what you are referring to here? Which device, what scenario? (So I and others can understand the comment better :))

Am I right in thinking that you are saying that after a fixed time, the sync will always fail?

Lack of intelligent Syncing: Fast speed internet is extremely expensive in India, and even if one can afford fast speeds, they are throttled by the draconian "Fair Usage Policy". This calls for intelligent Bandwidth usage. I use dropbox, which is also a cloud service. Now assume, i have 2 devices A and B, linked to a central Server, and A is sync'd with the server, and now i connect B for syncing. Dropbox detects automatically that A and B are linked to the same local network, and automatically switches to a "LAN" mode. By this , what happens is that B does not get updated from the server through the internet, but from A, through the LAN. This makes the syncing process of B faster and also saves up precious internet bandwidth. Evernote still continues to follow the text book method of syncing from the server.

With the way that Evernote works, the Web (Server) is regarded as the main storage, so it is there that the notes are downloaded from. I.e. the Web is seen as the ultimate truth in terms of note content. So syncing from another device wouldn't make sense in the Evernote syncing structure. (At least that is how I think it would work)

Two Factor Authentication: In an era where security threats are continuously increasing, and viruses and malware become more intelligent that sometimes, Anti viruses cannot detect them. How can we sure only with SSL protection? What if the virus has a keylogger that was not detected by my anti virus : The user simply gets a free ride into my account, right?

There are a couple of threads about this, and I am not sure of Evernote's stance on this request.

Lack of Implementation of User Feedback: I know this is a great forum, where employees and representatives of Evernote respond to you. The good thing ends there, i suppose. There have been instances, when i have posted feedback, when i get a response stating that the same feedback has been given on other threads. What then stops Evernote from implementing some of these changes, which are very simple, but can do a great deal to enhance productivity, a "term" that Evernote takes pride in.

Not every suggestion is as simple to implement as it may seem to a user. Evernote have to also judge how useful such an implementation will be with regards to time etc. that it may take to implement. There have been times where Evernote have implemented user feedback and suggestions (the most recent that I can think of is with Skitch on Android - the keep tool selected option was added as a result of user feedback). It has to be said though that not every suggestion will get implemented.

Scott

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  • Level 5

Hi Scott

I don't think it should be removed completely, since there are other EN apps that populate this field, so it is still somewhat useful.

Well, i suppose that looking up a location's geographical co-ordinates and entering them in Evernote, instead of adding them directly, adds to individual productivity. :)

So, (I'm assuming) there had to be a defined time period in which to take the note history. At whatever point 8 hours was deemed to be the choice. I don't think it is supposed to be the ultimate safeguard for notes, rather an option that you can use if needed.

I'm sure the usual manual backup comments apply here as well.

The system has to be intelligent enough to understand that a change has happened in a note, and automcatically create a backup copy, and not take backup copies, after fixed time durations.

Not really sure what you are referring to here? Which device, what scenario? (So I and others can understand the comment better :))

Am I right in thinking that you are saying that after a fixed time, the sync will always fail?

The shortest manual time set in evernote's options is 15 minutes, nothing less than that. This means that say, a user is trying to sync his device and in 15 minutes, he can download max.100 MB, but if the sync difference between client and server is more than 100 MB, sync will fail.

With the way that Evernote works, the Web (Server) is regarded as the main storage, so it is there that the notes are downloaded from. I.e. the Web is seen as the ultimate truth in terms of note content. So syncing from another device wouldn't make sense in the Evernote syncing structure. (At least that is how I think it would work)

I know the way evernote works, and that is why i have said that it is not intelligent syncing. When Device A has already been sync'd with the server, it simply means that the content of A is a mirror copy of the server. This is what cloud access is all about. It does not make any difference for B to get its copy from A or the server.

There are a couple of threads about this, and I am not sure of Evernote's stance on this request.

A user in an earlier post told that Evernote never tells out its developmental roadmap. Exactly. And that is what worries me. And the end of the day, all of us users trust that the system is rock solid and that is why we place all our precious data on an external server. There are terrible things that can happen in the process, and we want to minimize the risk. As much as Evernote is about convenience of storing and organizing information, it is also about security. Maybe, if Evernote told clearly, that we have no intentions of implementing 2 Factor authentication, then there might be many like me, who may simply want to go some other place, that may not be as great functionally as EN, but definitely much more secure. The trouble is that, none of us know clearly EN's stance on this matter.

Not every suggestion is as simple to implement as it may seem to a user. Evernote have to also judge how useful such an implementation will be with regards to time etc. that it may take to implement. There have been times where Evernote have implemented user feedback and suggestions (the most recent that I can think of is with Skitch on Android - the keep tool selected option was added as a result of user feedback). It has to be said though that not every suggestion will get implemented.

The highlighting feature already existing in the EN's IOS eco system, and many users have constantly requested it for Desktop/Android.

Also another missing feature is bandwidth management. When i click sync, i don't want EN to hog all the bandwidth, killing other apps, in the process. There must be a way like DropBox to define user Upload/Download bandwidth specifically for Evernote.

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  • Level 5*

The shortest manual time set in evernote's options is 15 minutes, nothing less than that. This means that say, a user is trying to sync his device and in 15 minutes, he can download max.100 MB, but if the sync difference between client and server is more than 100 MB, sync will fail.

Hi. Thanks for taking the time to post your thoughts on this. I do not think the sync interval works that way. As I understand it, the number indicates how many minutes between each attempt to start syncing (uploading / downloading any new notes). If you have more than 100MB, it will definitely continue syncing, as you'll see, for example, on any initial sync of your account. At least, that is the experience that I have had with the service.

However, I have had syncing fail, and when I had a larger database (about 25GB) I could not complete an initial sync without numerous failures, especially on the Windows client. I don't know why this happens, but I suspect it has something to do with the amount and duration of the sync. I don't think it is a function of the sync duration settings you have, but rather your connection to the server. This is just a guess, though.

Your logs might help here. Have you created a support ticket for your syncing issues? You might find customer service can help you solve the problem.

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  • Level 5*
  • And most importantly, We have all read this a million times in this forum, and there would be some die hard fans of Evernote, who stand up and say each time - "Evernote's system works great for me. I have no problem with it. You instead ought to be working with the way, Evernote is designed for, and so on.." If it works, good for you. But for god's sake, stop counter acting when a user criticises Evernote's flaws. I guess, it is thanks to people like you that Evernote assumes that its system is as solid as diamond and refuses to look at bugs/better implementations of a particular feature.

Well, shucks, that's cute and obviously important to you for some reason, but unfortunately for your argument, the opinions of some regular posters in the user forums have approximately zero to do with the question of whether Evernote is complacent or not. Since you don't seem to think it important to identify the individual users that you are referring to, or bother to cite them, it's not easy to see exactly what (or who) you are getting at here. I can only guess. I certainly don't know anyone who claims that Evernote is perfect or "solid as a diamond" as you claim. Feel free to cite them, though, if I've missed it. But presumably you are talking about regular posters who are not Evernote employees.

However, the people who post here, by and large, are users, just like you are. And I certainly have opinions of my own, and I try to call out flaws where I see them. I do draw a line between actual flaws (that is, bugs, or deviations from Evernote's intended design) and disagreements over what features should go into Evernote's implementations. In other words, if, for example, Evernote's own documented search rules are broken, then that's a real flaw to me. I don't mind calling attention to that if need be. On the other hand, if someone feels a deep need for some feature that Evernote does not provide (like say nested notebooks, for one), then that to me is not a flaw, but a design decision. I will usually side with Evernote there, for several reasons; it's their program, and their livelihoods depend on it succeeding, and that they are usually the only ones who can know how easy or difficult it is to implement some desired feature, or if they think a desired feature is worth adding at all.

BTW, if I happen to know that there is prior conversation on a requested feature, then my preference is, yes, to direct the person who suggested it to seek out other relevant discussion in the forum, so that we don't need to repeat conversations that have already taken place. If you think that having the 49th conversation about, for example, infinitely nested notebooks is worth having when Evernote hasn't shown the slightest inclination to implement them, then hey, carry on. It's your forum, too, after all. And who knows, maybe they will. But you will not dictate what I choose to say, no matter how anguished you feel over it, or whether you put it in red print or boldface or ALL CAPS. It's my forum, too, after all.

For the record, I do not believe that there's any actual evidence to support that Evernote is growing complacent.

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Missing Note History changes - A backup/snapshot every 8 hours? : You got to be kidding me: If this is the standard procedure, it is a sure shot recipe for interim changes, made within the 8 hours to be lost. Yeah, many argue that the user could manually, click the sync feature, but why do it? Aren't there enough cloud services today that automatically sync data changes? Why do we have to keep saying like "I am happy with an obsolescent technology and i need to change my usage style in accordance with it". There are so many people who raise complaints in this forum that say, their changes are not visible in their note history, and i think the problem is directly attributable to this kind of solution.

As a cloud service, there's a definite call for what features are important to users. I, myself, would like to see more frequent versioning for our user histories. However, 5 minutes is unfortunately unfeasible for a service such as ours, as we would need to charge much more than $45 a year per account. I would suggest you use Google Docs if that is your "must-have" feature, or, Microsoft Office, where the program auto-save utilizes local desktop storage, and not cloud space.

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I have been using Evernote for almost 6 months, and i think it is a great software. But, as much as there are good things, i think that there are somethings that absolutely turn me off, some really simple things, which i think needs to be mentioned here.

  • Unfixed bug : Evernote has made 3 releases since i first reported this bug to tech support/posted on the forum. I am yet to get a solution. The problem continues.
  • Location in Desktop Version: In the desktop version, who in his sane mind would want to type latitude and longitude, when he can simply type the name of location? If evernote cannot fix this issue, may as well remove this feature.
  • Missing Note History changes - A backup/snapshot every 8 hours? : You got to be kidding me: If this is the standard procedure, it is a sure shot recipe for interim changes, made within the 8 hours to be lost. Yeah, many argue that the user could manually, click the sync feature, but why do it? Aren't there enough cloud services today that automatically sync data changes? Why do we have to keep saying like "I am happy with an obsolescent technology and i need to change my usage style in accordance with it". There are so many people who raise complaints in this forum that say, their changes are not visible in their note history, and i think the problem is directly attributable to this kind of solution.
  • Sync Feature: One of the proud features of Evernote. If one of your devices has not been sync'd with your Evernote account for a long time, you will find that the sync feature is time bound. Not many people have super fast internet, which means that within a time period, if syncing is not complete, Evernote will simply issue an Error saying "Sync Failed", with a red bar on the sync icon. Until the user manually clicks sync again, the device will be stalled.
  • Lack of intelligent Syncing: Fast speed internet is extremely expensive in India, and even if one can afford fast speeds, they are throttled by the draconian "Fair Usage Policy". This calls for intelligent Bandwidth usage. I use dropbox, which is also a cloud service. Now assume, i have 2 devices A and B, linked to a central Server, and A is sync'd with the server, and now i connect B for syncing. Dropbox detects automatically that A and B are linked to the same local network, and automatically switches to a "LAN" mode. By this , what happens is that B does not get updated from the server through the internet, but from A, through the LAN. This makes the syncing process of B faster and also saves up precious internet bandwidth. Evernote still continues to follow the text book method of syncing from the server.
  • Two Factor Authentication: In an era where security threats are continuously increasing, and viruses and malware become more intelligent that sometimes, Anti viruses cannot detect them. How can we sure only with SSL protection? What if the virus has a keylogger that was not detected by my anti virus : The user simply gets a free ride into my account, right?
  • Lack of Implementation of User Feedback: I know this is a great forum, where employees and representatives of Evernote respond to you. The good thing ends there, i suppose. There have been instances, when i have posted feedback, when i get a response stating that the same feedback has been given on other threads. What then stops Evernote from implementing some of these changes, which are very simple, but can do a great deal to enhance productivity, a "term" that Evernote takes pride in.
  • Missing Data across sync'd versions: This is absolutely unacceptable. Some of the changes that i made a few days ago , and which even were sync'd were lost, across multiple device syncing, ideally when there should have been a "Conflicting changes" tag. Subsequently, i read that there was a bug in the release. How is it possible to have a release that allows "loss of data"? This is simply unacceptable.

  • And most importantly, We have all read this a million times in this forum, and there would be some die hard fans of Evernote, who stand up and say each time - "Evernote's system works great for me. I have no problem with it. You instead ought to be working with the way, Evernote is designed for, and so on.." If it works, good for you. But for god's sake, stop counter acting when a user criticises Evernote's flaws. I guess, it is thanks to people like you that Evernote assumes that its system is as solid as diamond and refuses to look at bugs/better implementations of a particular feature.

So I think this post should actually be titled, "Why I think that Evernote isn't Perfect" :P

You bring up some good points, and I'm pretty sure Evernote employees will be the first to tell you that we can do better. But I don't see how you might say we're complacent, even as an employee I'm often amazed at how much code we push out. You could apply several of these complaints to numerous, non-complacent companies.

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  • Level 5

It is a pity that you chose to reply only to the lines in red, and not replied to some of my other points, especially the one regarding the "2 Step Authentication policy". Infact, since the bug persists, 60 Mb is never enough, and i had to go premium. Not that i regret it though, but surely, there will be people who face this problem. Not fixing the bug will force many people to opt for premium, when their usage may not actually be more than the free 60Mb/month. And for one of your requests: please check this link.

http://discussion.ev...ay/#entry161940

The point about Evernote is safety of data, and don't you see hundreds of people citing that their data is missing, or their version history is missing?

You make me sound like as if am some frustrated devil waiting to shoot Evernote. I am not. If you look at my other posts, you surely can see that i like Evernote and i think it is a great software. Well, i guess, i used the wrong term "complacency", but i think i'd go with dlu and retitle the post as "Why Evernote is not perfect?"

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  • Level 5

As a cloud service, there's a definite call for what features are important to users. I, myself, would like to see more frequent versioning for our user histories. However, 5 minutes is unfortunately unfeasible for a service such as ours, as we would need to charge much more than $45 a year per account. I would suggest you use Google Docs if that is your "must-have" feature, or, Microsoft Office, where the program auto-save utilizes local desktop storage, and not cloud space.

I'd like to know, why it is not feasible. If a user makes a Note of 1Mb, and then subsequently makes changes of 1 Mb and then another 1 Mb, the whole note size is 3 Mb. We all know how Note versioning works. The server stores the base note of 1mb in V1, the subsequent version only stores the difference of 1Mb in V2 , and the third difference of 1Mb in V3. There is no storage burden on the server.

I don't know what is the backup mechanism of Evernote. If it works the above manner, i don't see why this is not possible, since, the server is capturing only the net difference. If however, Evernote takes back up as V1 = 1mb, V2 = 2Mb, V3 = 3 Mb, thereby creating a total storage space of 6Mb, then it is not an optimal implementation flaw.

Given that we pay , and also given that so many people claim to be losing data, i seriously think evernote should consider auto back up.

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As a cloud service, there's a definite call for what features are important to users. I, myself, would like to see more frequent versioning for our user histories. However, 5 minutes is unfortunately unfeasible for a service such as ours, as we would need to charge much more than $45 a year per account. I would suggest you use Google Docs if that is your "must-have" feature, or, Microsoft Office, where the program auto-save utilizes local desktop storage, and not cloud space.

I'd like to know, why it is not feasible. If a user makes a Note of 1Mb, and then subsequently makes changes of 1 Mb and then another 1 Mb, the whole note size is 3 Mb. We all know how Note versioning works. The server stores the base note of 1mb in V1, the subsequent version only stores the difference of 1Mb in V2 , and the third difference of 1Mb in V3. There is no storage burden on the server.

I don't know what is the backup mechanism of Evernote. If it works the above manner, i don't see why this is not possible, since, the server is capturing only the net difference. If however, Evernote takes back up as V1 = 1mb, V2 = 2Mb, V3 = 3 Mb, thereby creating a total storage space of 6Mb, then it is not an optimal implementation flaw.

Given that we pay , and also given that so many people claim to be losing data, i seriously think evernote should consider auto back up.

In general, since neither of us has detailed knowledge of the inner workings of Evernote, it is best not to speculate.

The data loss issues are always a top priority, and it's unfortunate that they happen at all. But data loss issues can, and often happen do, happen on the client side before sync. So the increments of note history don't matter at all.

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  • Level 5*
It is a pity that you chose to reply only to the lines in red

If you're referring to me (btw, quoting is a useful function), I chose the topic that I felt I could answer. You also took the time to post it in red, prefixed it with "most importantly", and also indicated some passion about it ("for gods sake").

You make me sound like as if am some frustrated devil waiting to shoot Evernote.

The specific issue you was about what some unspecified group of fellow users posts here (in your thinking), not about Evernote, and the response was in kind. If you have a complaint about what individual users say, then respond to them them specifically if you disagree, or report the post if you think it's an abuse of forum policies. Otherwise you leave us to guess, and meanwhile, the person you have a problem with is likely not to get the message.

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  • Level 5*
I'd like to know, why it is not feasible. If a user makes a Note of 1Mb, and then subsequently makes changes of 1 Mb and then another 1 Mb, the whole note size is 3 Mb. We all know how Note versioning works.

I put it to you that most people do not know how content versioning works. There are a number of methods, some of which store diffs, and some of which do not. And each comes with its own set of trade-offs.

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Please see my post here regarding the first point Unfixed bug.

Basically I have been using Evernote for 4 years now, and I'm currently traveling across the entire Eurasia continent, and the only time I've had this happen is in India, the same country Panzerkampfwagen is in. That is slightly coincidental ......

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  • And most importantly, We have all read this a million times in this forum, and there would be some die hard fans of Evernote, who stand up and say each time - "Evernote's system works great for me. I have no problem with it. You instead ought to be working with the way, Evernote is designed for, and so on.." If it works, good for you. But for god's sake, stop counter acting when a user criticises Evernote's flaws. I guess, it is thanks to people like you that Evernote assumes that its system is as solid as diamond and refuses to look at bugs/better implementations of a particular feature.

I can certainly relate to that. There seems to be some fanatics on these forums and each time I have reported a problem I get a wave of anti-criticism just like you described.

As far as I am concerned Data loss is absolutely unacceptable and for now I have stopped using evernote on any mobile devices for that reason after having noticed some inconsistencies ( notes being moved around, changes getting deleted ) .

I would like evernote to explain to us clearly all that sync business works, not with a video for 5 years old , but every detail of how conflicting changes are handled so that we can avoid data loss.

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  • Level 5

Complacent in a couple other areas:

I miss the old days when folks like Dave Engberg were allowed to express their opinions and offer technical insight into the behind-the-scenes working of Evernote.

Also, Evernote should reconsider their decision to rely on users as their Quality Control department for releases and upgrades.

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I would say complacent too.

When I first saw the new iOS and mac version of Evernote, I thought it's pretty. But after I use them, I just think " what the heck are Evernote thinking?" The mac version is a beta that I feel it's an alpha. It has improvements, yes. But it removed a lot of useful things that old version have (like backward/forward buttons) and totally interrupt my workflow. The new iOS version is better than old one, definitely. But I think it's just pretty and it waste the 10 inches screen of iPad. Comparing to the Evernote on my Android phone, I can hardly not thinking " which one is an mobile phone?" The iOS version waste the big screen and provide only few things better than the old version. And what we complained most on the forum, the list view, is not seen on the new version. I feel what we said on the forum was ignored. So you said you're not complacent? I doubt that.

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