(Archived) QUERY: 100 years is a long journey, Evernote, but where are you going?

[LKA 2]

I think Evernote is the best information collection solution around, but their distance to the users doesn't make me that huge fan who stays no matter what. I will probably switch as soon as another company is doing the same thing but also gives me the feeling that they are listening. With XX million users I understand that they can't listen to everyone, still I think they could try harder. Instead of making their main product bullet proof, they are acquiring other companies and releasing apps like "Hello" and “Food”

It looks like they try to follow the same strategy as Apple and Google, kings within their segment and still have good products, but hopeless to confront with bugs, feature requests and road maps. Will one or more of them end up just like monsters like IBM, Microsoft and many others, growing away from their customers? Will soon Evernote have to buy trend analysis to find out where to go? Because when companies start to buy trend analysis, they prove that they have lost the contact with the customers and their segment, right?

It is so hard to be a big company and listen to the little people.

I can even be very specific: Why do the latest Windows update includes a new fancy way to process multiple notes, like save attachments, while the file attachment handling within the notes still have stupid bugs like copy & paste, or dragging. And Image rotating: excellent! But the whole text and image formatting is quite bad and not what you expect in 2012.

Do they know their product well enough? Do they know their users well enough? To some extent, of course they do. But do the customers feel they do?

I'm happy to hear from anyone, but hopefully some Evermore employers also can join in, so the customers can be saved from the guessing and speculation :-)

Lars Kristian A

[Metrodon 2,188]

This is a user forum, Evernote employees read pretty much every post but you aren't guaranteed a response.

Actually, I think they are pretty good at listening to what their customers want, but like every business they are constrained by a large number of internal and external factors.

I think they have bought 3 other companies - all of which bring things which will obviously improve Evernote over time. Skitch for image manipulation, Penultimate for handwriting and the new studio in Austin to bring a fresh perspective.

I honestly can't see how any of this is bad. Don't get me wrong, I think there are loads and loads of things that they can do to improve the product, but overall I think they do pretty well.

As for the 100 year stuff, well I think that is marketing nonsense. The organisations that are injecting capital (and lots of it too) aren't in it because they think Evernote will remain a private company for 100 years. They are in it for a future IPO and once that happens, well your guess is as good as mine.

[jefito 5,598]

Nonsense -- the 100 year bit is to give them enough time to give us our Due Dates!!

[Metrodon 2,188]

Nonsense -- the 100 year bit is to give them enough time to give us our Due Dates!!

You'll make JB explode.....

[GrumpyMonkey 4,320]

I think Evernote is the best information collection solution around, but their distance to the users doesn't make me that huge fan who stays no matter what. I will probably switch as soon as another company is doing the same thing but also gives me the feeling that they are listening. With XX million users I understand that they can't listen to everyone, still I think they could try harder. Instead of making their main product bullet proof, they are acquiring other companies and releasing apps like "Hello" and “Food”

It looks like they try to follow the same strategy as Apple and Google, kings within their segment and still have good products, but hopeless to confront with bugs, feature requests and road maps. Will one or more of them end up just like monsters like IBM, Microsoft and many others, growing away from their customers? Will soon Evernote have to buy trend analysis to find out where to go? Because when companies start to buy trend analysis, they prove that they have lost the contact with the customers and their segment, right?

It is so hard to be a big company and listen to the little people.

I can even be very specific: Why do the latest Windows update includes a new fancy way to process multiple notes, like save attachments, while the file attachment handling within the notes still have stupid bugs like copy & paste, or dragging. And Image rotating: excellent! But the whole text and image formatting is quite bad and not what you expect in 2012.

Do they know their product well enough? Do they know their users well enough? To some extent, of course they do. But do the customers feel they do?

I'm happy to hear from anyone, but hopefully some Evermore employers also can join in, so the customers can be saved from the guessing and speculation :-)

Lars Kristian A

Hi. Thanks for all of your input in the forums so far!

Evernote has decided not to release their roadmap, and so I wouldn't expect to hear much from them on the issues. Their CEO (Phil Libin) tends to be more forthcoming, so you could tweet him

From my perspective as a user, I think the best thing we can do is post in the forums: (1) What is our problem, (2) What solutions do we think could solve it, (3) Some models Evernote might look at to see how to deal with it.

I've posted several wish-lists on these forums in the hopes that the suggestions will percolate and find their way into some developer's unconscious dreams about what to do next. Keep bringing up these issues and try to convince Evernote to take them up.

Recently, it has become a lot easier for me: Bring every platform as close as possible to the current Windows user interface. It would be amazing to have some of the sorting features on the Mac, or to have the rich list view of Windows on the iPad.

[jefito 5,598]

I know, I know (I shoulda put in that rim-shot). I think I woke up on the mischievous side of bed this morning, maybe in honor of Maurice Sendak.

I actually like their idea of a 100 year company -- it may be marketing, but it also gives a framework for thinking about the future. I tend think about it more metaphorically than literally, though.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,320]

I know, I know (I shoulda put in that rim-shot). I think I woke up on the mischievous side of bed this morning, maybe in honor of Maurice Sendak.

I actually like their idea of a 100 year company -- it may be marketing, but it also gives a framework for thinking about the future. I tend think about it more metaphorically than literally, though.

to be even more mischevious, have you heard phil libin's intro to penultimate? a freudian slip that reveals he already thinks evernote is already a 100 year old company (see :38-:41)

http://discussion.ev...__fromsearch__1

maybe phil is an observer with hair (fringe reference here) who exists in multiple timelines and alternate universes. this also explains why he might need a robot avatar (phil's version of william bell's (he'll always be spock to me) use of oliva as an avatar). how can you have a due date, when you exist in all times simultaneously?

[LKA 2]

...

I've posted several wish-lists on these forums in the hopes that the suggestions will percolate and find their way into some developer's unconscious dreams about what to do next. Keep bringing up these issues and try to convince Evernote to take them up.

Recently, it has become a lot easier for me: Bring every platform as close as possible to the current Windows user interface. It would be amazing to have some of the sorting features on the Mac, or to have the rich list view of Windows on the iPad.

That's exacty the problem here. Why should the customers beg and convince to get bugs fixed, and have obvious functions? That's not the way your building a life-long partnership with your customers.

Lars Kristian

[mdalves 17]

As an employee in a company mentioned in the original post, I'd like to say that yes - we do hear our customers; but of course not all demands can be supported; resources are limited and what's good for a customer may compromise usability for other customers - it's always a hard choice; my opinion is that Evernote is doing a good job in working side-by-side with us - their customers.

I've tried and abandoned many other products and services just because I didn't rely on their long term strategies (or lack of strategy at all), that's not the case with Evernote. I may not fall in love with all their desktop/mobile clients and may miss some features I'd like to have, but I'm happy to be a premium user and support their development.

[jefito 5,598]

Things often tend to get fixed over time.

Customers get impatient, don't understand why problem X gets fixed first, why what they see as 'obvious' isn't seen as critical by Evernote, why Evernote performs seemingly unrelated development when they could be fixing 'obvious' problems, etc., etc.

Evernote can't really control what customers think; they can only control the things that Evernote does. Customers are advocates for changes; how deeply they feel about their beliefs (i.e., feel they must beg, etc.) is largely irrelevant. Evernote cannot do everything that its customers want.

Relevant business maxim: Listen to your customers, but don't let them tell you what to do.

That's basically the proposition here, as with many companies, as best I can tell.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,320]

...

I've posted several wish-lists on these forums in the hopes that the suggestions will percolate and find their way into some developer's unconscious dreams about what to do next. Keep bringing up these issues and try to convince Evernote to take them up.

Recently, it has become a lot easier for me: Bring every platform as close as possible to the current Windows user interface. It would be amazing to have some of the sorting features on the Mac, or to have the rich list view of Windows on the iPad.

That's exacty the problem here. Why should the customers beg and convince to get bugs fixed, and have obvious functions? That's not the way your building a life-long partnership with your customers.

Lars Kristian

Actually, what I meant in my post was that this is the strategy I have adopted, instead of asking for a roadmap, which doesn't get supplied. I don't see it as begging. Rather, it is the best way I can think of to structure my requests in a positive, helpful, and hopefully persuasive way.

I think my main request is rather benign: let's do what you are already doing with Windows, except let users of other platforms enjoy some of those design innovations as well. But, maybe Evernote disagrees. That is cool. I do not work there. I have no idea what kind of resources and constraints they have to deal with in their work. I am happy to just offer my suggestions, and try to phrase them in a way that will benefit the company's product.

I know they listen to us. They pop into threads all of the time, they are available by private messaging, and you can even tweet their CEO. Sometimes, they even argue against my ideas. But, I think there is a distinction to be made between listening and obeying -- I respect their design decisions, even if they bewilder, befuddle, or frustrate me. They have the right (and sometimes the obligation) to disagree with their users at times. With 23 million users and counting, I doubt we are all going to agree about anything

[jefito 5,598]

you can even tweet their CEO.

Wm Shakespeare

Henry The Fourth, Part I Act 3, scene 1, 52–58

Glendower:

I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur:

Why, so can I, or so can any man;

But will they come when you do call for them?

[GrumpyMonkey 4,320]

you can even tweet their CEO.

Wm Shakespeare

Henry The Fourth, Part I Act 3, scene 1, 52–58

Glendower:

I can call spirits from the vasty deep.

Hotspur:

Why, so can I, or so can any man;

But will they come when you do call for them?

Glendower:

Why, I can teach you, cousin, to command

The devil

Hotspur:

And I can teach thee, coz, to shame the devil—

By telling the truth. Tell truth and shame the devil.

The power of Twitter

[peterfmartin 221]

Lars: For what my one opinion's worth, I mostly agree with you, not about acquiring smaller products, but about how I've seen Evernote interact with customers (of course, mostly me) since I started using it.

As helpful and attentive as Geoff is here on the forums, it's not enough. My interactions with Geoff, which have been 100 percent positive and incredibly appreciated, have been different from numerous interactions with other Evernote employees. Many—though, of course, far from all—of my other experiences with Evernote employees (here on the forum and through support tickets) have been disappointing. At times they haven't seemed to be listening, and haven't told me correct information. At time employees have been sarcastically insulting to customers here on the forum (which, while no crime, is the opposite of a positive customer service experience in my mind). And, in the process of discussions with support, I've asked a few questions that have been unanswered until the tickets have been closed with auto-replies ("We are closing out this support ticket. Should you have any other requests for support, suggestions or questions please feel free to open a new support ticket."). On top of all that, many of the these interaction have only come about as a result of Evernote's how-to documentation, which stills contains lots of errors and missing information. The last example isn't exactly customer support, but it is a shortcoming relevant to what Evernote currently offers its users.

Let me be very clear that I don't feel seriously wronged by any of this. Evernote makes a great product at a great price. Overall, it provides me far more than I would have asked for had I designed my idea of an Evernote-like product before I discovered the actual product.

So I'm not voicing this now as a serious complaint, or to suggest that, in general, I or we are owed more. In individual instances, I do believe I have been owed something different (such as correct information from support, as mentioned in the linked post above), but those instances have not yet proven a serious impediment to my effective use of the product, which is the most important thing. So I share my feelings and general agreement with Lars now mostly just because of two reasons:

1. What he wrote resonated with me. On numerous occasions, I have felt what Lars described as Evernote's "distance to the users." I want to share that I've felt that too.

2. I'm concerned that, as Evernote's customer base keeps growing exponentially, the shortcomings I described experiencing may become worse. If that comes to pass, it will harm me as one user and the product/user base/community as a whole.

Evernote's rapid expansion, however, also provides opportunity. The company isn't just adding users; it's also hiring many new employees. So everything I've experienced so far could be a thing of the past in six months. I hope it is.

[jefito 5,598]

peter and Grumpy Monkey both exemplify another angle on the customer support problem (they're not alone, they're just both participating here). Both of them got less satisfactory results from their questions and issues than they wanted; eventually both of them would up as Evangelists here. In other words, rather than complain, they put their time towards moving the needle in a positive direction. Evernote's focus on trying to build a stronger community is part of that, as is the makeup of the these individuals.

[peterfmartin 221]

peter and Grumpy Monkey both exemplify another angle on the customer support problem (they're not alone, they're just both participating here). Both of them got less satisfactory results from their questions and issues than they wanted; eventually both of them would up as Evangelists here. In other words, rather than complain, they put their time towards moving the needle in a positive direction. Evernote's focus on trying to build a stronger community is part of that, as is the makeup of the these individuals.

That's a good point. For better or worse, I found the forum because Evernote documentation was missing a fact I was looking for (how to search for notes containing PDFs, which I believe still isn't mentioned anywhere except the API and maybe other developer-aimed pages), and I stuck around because people like Jeff and GrumpyMonkey provided better and faster help than Evernote employees. The happiest lesson from that is that other users here are very helpful, the next happiest is that I didn't give up on Evernote after any of my frustrating experiences, and the third is that Evernote created this forum and Geoff has managed it excellently. I hope my example in the forum encourages other people to ask questions here, answer questions here, and generally stay patient with the product and helpful to each other. If I've helped "move the needle in a positive direction," awesome. But I maintain hope that Evernote will need us less in the future, because it will have better documentation and faster employee-provided help.

[jefito 5,598]

But I maintain hope that Evernote will need us less in the future, because it will have better documentation and faster employee-provided help.

I'd put that in the category of "quaint hope" -- even the best documentation goes unread by a surprisingly large percentage of people. It's sort of why RTFM and "Here, let me Google that for you" are memes...

That's not to say that the documentation shouldn't be improved, it's just that better docs won't necessarily put us out of a job.

[peterfmartin 221]

Totally right, but notice I didn't say I hope users will need us less in the future; I said I hope Evernote will need us less in the future. Maybe I have an inflated sense of how useful this forum is, but I think better documentation and customer support would mean users like you (or all of us) would be less critical for maintaining pleased Evernote customers.

[JMichaelTX 4,118]

. But I maintain hope that Evernote will need us less in the future, because it will have better documentation and faster employee-provided help.

If Evernote *will* develop and maintain good, accurate, up-to-date documentation it would help greatly, and should minimize the need for most people to resort to posting in a forum. It would really be great if Evernote would provide access to Help directly from the App itself, and make the documentation and knowledge base searchable by Google.

I have never had as much a need for help from a product's forum as I have had with Evernote.

Unfortunately, due to the poor documentation, bugs (especially search bugs), and inconsistencies, the EN forum becomes just about the only source for reliable info.

Finally, a well-designed app can minimize the need for any documentation. This is very hard to do, and very few apps actually achieve this.

[gbarry 2,659]

What a great set of posts--sorry I'm late to it, and thanks for the kind words here and there about our community. Great OP too. Allow me to add a few thoughts

I'm obviously biased, but I think we do a pretty good job of interacting with users here. This is not to say we don't have work to do--there's always room for improvement across the board, but we're game for it--if you consider we've grown from 6 million users to approaching 30 million in less than a year, the customer support we've maintained has been pretty top notch, with extremely low response times and extremely high amounts of reported satisfaction. Developer roadmaps are tweaked continually based on customer feedback from the forum, from app stores, from social media, etc, and we have employees regularly interacting with users here in the forum. Even if you do not receive a comment, odds are it's been scanned by someone in CS, QA, marketing, or a member of our developer teams--trust me, I see the logs, and they're in there lurking and scanning your feedback. I've honestly never been a part of (nor interacted with) a company this open and willing to interact with so many customers on such a massive basis.

Here's another great example--some of our more enterprising users created a list of issues they had with IOS back in days of 4.1.9. We took that list, internally, and we went through it bit by bit, and reported back to our users, regularly, during the beta development phase, every single item on that list we'd tackled, were going to tackle, or wouldn't immediately tackle. We took a Mac improvement list (again, developed by the community) and made some parts of it gospel. Every beta released in Android is tracked by our Android PM. The trend towards toggling options? The impetus was community feedback. And these aren't outliers--user feedback is a given--not some randomly tacked on afterthought.

The community (and this includes social media as well as this forum), as Peter's noted, is going to continue to be a big part of the bridge between us and our users. That's why it's here. This is why we organize regular community chats between employees and users, and why we work so hard at cultivating user stories in the community, and why we're building the Ambassadors program. This is why our support is localized to the user as much as we possibly can with the resources we have. Austin was developed to be a semi-autonomous studio so that we can further maintain our "forever startup" mentality and build better products for users--the people of Evernote are people that will spend Thanksgiving ensuring your app works. That's how committed we are to this.

Do we have work to do? Of course we do. And we hope you'll continue to point out where it's needed.

[jbenson2 2,149]

And we hope you'll continue to point out where it's needed.

Since you asked...

A Due Date column

I'm just saying.

[erkenntnis 8]

And we hope you'll continue to point out where it's needed.

Since you asked...

A Due Date column

I'm just saying.

+1

[JMichaelTX 4,118]

Do we have work to do? Of course we do. And we hope you'll continue to point out where it's needed.

Geoff, thanks for your considered post. I agree that the Evernote Forums provide an opportunity for feedback and interaction with Evernote that few developers offer. This is much appreciated. Sometimes though, the design decisions seem a bit mysterious and unexpected from a user's point of view. I read somewhere that Phil Libin stated that he highly values communication skills in his employees. Perhaps some better communications on design decisions would be helpful.

As JB said, since you asked ...

I have three major requests:

1. Complete functional parity between EN Win and EN Mac
   
2. Accurate, up-to-date documentation (see this thread)
   
3. Adhere to the Form follows function design philosophy
   

Thanks again for your feedback.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

I think Evernote is the best information collection solution around, but their distance to the users doesn't make me that huge fan who stays no matter what. I will probably switch as soon as another company is doing the same thing but also gives me the feeling that they are listening. With XX million users I understand that they can't listen to everyone, still I think they could try harder. Instead of making their main product bullet proof, they are acquiring other companies and releasing apps like "Hello" and “Food”

It looks like they try to follow the same strategy as Apple and Google, kings within their segment and still have good products, but hopeless to confront with bugs, feature requests and road maps. Will one or more of them end up just like monsters like IBM, Microsoft and many others, growing away from their customers? Will soon Evernote have to buy trend analysis to find out where to go? Because when companies start to buy trend analysis, they prove that they have lost the contact with the customers and their segment, right?

It is so hard to be a big company and listen to the little people.

I can even be very specific: Why do the latest Windows update includes a new fancy way to process multiple notes, like save attachments, while the file attachment handling within the notes still have stupid bugs like copy & paste, or dragging. And Image rotating: excellent! But the whole text and image formatting is quite bad and not what you expect in 2012.

Do they know their product well enough? Do they know their users well enough? To some extent, of course they do. But do the customers feel they do?

I'm happy to hear from anyone, but hopefully some Evermore employers also can join in, so the customers can be saved from the guessing and speculation :-)

Lars Kristian A

The biggest responsibility a company has, when they have millions of users, is to stay afloat. IMO & IME, EN DOES listen to their users. They are regularly adding new features to their software. But listening to their users & implementing every little thing users ask for are two entirely different things. Just because something a user requests doesn't get implemented doesn't mean EN is not listening. It may simply mean they have either put implementing that particular feature on the back burner or have chosen to not implement it at all.