(Archived) REQUEST: Saved search details at head of notes list, like in Windows version

[johnwin 10]

Are EN planning to bring the Mac client functionality up to that on Windows?

In the Windows client when I select a saved search there is a REALLY useful box at the head of the notes list that shows the make-up of the save search and allows it to be edited.

In the Mac version (including the current RC) this does not exist. It mean that if I have a complex saved search that I need to edit I have to start from scratch and trust my memory!

I still think EN is awesome though - I just have to edit my search on my work Windows PC. Thanks.

[peterfmartin 221]

I understood GrumpyMonkey's argument to be that Evernote probably doesn't care about power users more than non-power users. Dlu said as much a couple last month:

There's a balance we need to strike, between new users and returning users, between novice users and power users and all sorts of other things. I've seem bad things happen if you lean too far in any one direction. But the forums pretty much only represent power users. So anytime we do some balancing for novice users, we'll see lots of forum activity. So I'm trying to make a judgement call not just on how much the forums like it, but if I'm striking a good balance overall.

[jefito 5,598]

It's sad that I need to clarify this, but not surprising, I guess: "I believe that Evernote behaves as a rational company" does not mean the same thing as "I agree with every choice that they've ever made".

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

But I also don't automatically assume that all of their decisions are the best ones just because I may like the company.

Doesn't really matter whether one likes the company or not. If their bottom line is telling them they are successful, then so be it. And from the recent acquisitions over the past year, it seems like their bottom line is doing just fine.

[JMichaelTX 4,118]

Sure seems like we have touched a sore point.

Companies don't always make the best decisions, even for their own benefit.

Apple, Microsoft, Google, Yahoo, just to name a few, have made bad decisions that they have needed to fix.

I don't expect Companies to be perfect, nor do I expect them to always do the things I want them to do.

But I also don't automatically assume that all of their decisions are the best ones just because I may like the company.

[peterfmartin 221]

Sorry to carry on so much. This is an ongoing issue that I have with Evernote. We probably need an off-topic thread to deal with this issue in general.

Ack. Cue melodrama.

Food fight!

[jefito 5,598]

Ack. Cue melodrama.

Anyways, Evernote can choose to listen to me or not, just like any other user - if they do, it should be because what I say is persuasive and makes sense for Evernote, not because I am an Evangelist. I expect them to behave as other rational organizations ought: do the things that preserve their chance of long-term survival and success. I hope and expect that they will fix bugs, and figure that they will address issues as befits the priorities that they see. If they make good choices, then "hooray!", if not, then their dream of a 100-year company is probably not going to happen. In other words, they should behave in their own rational self-interest, and not in my self-interest. I'd be surprised if they didn't.

I am not a power user (~2500 notes), I don't even always use the tips that I come up with, I just like Evernote and think sometimes that I can help other users with their problems.

[JMichaelTX 4,118]

I understood GrumpyMonkey's argument to be that Evernote probably doesn't care about power users more than non-power users. Dlu said as much a couple last month:

There's a balance we need to strike, between new users and returning users, between novice users and power users and all sorts of other things. I've seem bad things happen if you lean too far in any one direction. But the forums pretty much only represent power users. So anytime we do some balancing for novice users, we'll see lots of forum activity. So I'm trying to make a judgement call not just on how much the forums like it, but if I'm striking a good balance overall.

Peter, as I said that argument is NOT relevant to the parity issue.

Whatever the reason for the feature being in EN Win (Power, normal, both), it is needed in EN Mac.

Finally, I honestly don't buy DLU's argument. A good, well-thought-out design will work well for both normal users and power users.

I've seem a number of systems designed this way. And, I think Evernote is way under-estimating it's users. We have now adults who grew up with computers, have used them almost their entire life. So I think people are much more computer savvy now than they ever have been.

One final point. Even power users like for the software to be intuitive. That's a loaded word, and is hard to achieve. It simply means the software behaves like I expect to do, without me having to learn a bunch of new stuff. It also means that, on multi-platform systems, once I know how to use it on one platform, I know how to use it on all the platforms. This is far from true with Evernote.

Sorry to carry on so much. This is an ongoing issue that I have with Evernote. We probably need an off-topic thread to deal with this issue in general.

[peterfmartin 221]

IME, EN evangelists are not necessarily "power users". They do tend to know a lot about the product & volunteer their time to help others on the board. As a result, most of them do use EN a lot. But, IIRC, there was at least one evangelist who didn't use EN all that much, but still was knowledgable & helpful on the board.

EN does not give more weight to what the evangelists think or like. EN has it's own roadmap that probably gets modified as they see fit.

True. But dlu's opinion is that "the forums pretty much only represent power users." By that standard we're very uber ultra power users.

[peterfmartin 221]

That's kind of a disheartening statement. What constitutes a power user's need and a novice user's need? Is the search explanation bar for power users only? Are the style over substance changes of the popup and card view for novice users? Aren't power users more likely to pay for Evernote Premium over novice users?

And why does a piece of software have to be dumbed down for novice users to be able to use it too? [...] I understand Evernote doesn't want a ton of options and settings but removing basic functionality in an attempt to cater to the percentage of your user base less likely to pay for a subscription doesn't seem like the definition of "striking a balance."

I agree totally. Sigh.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

IME, EN evangelists are not necessarily "power users". They do tend to know a lot about the product & volunteer their time to help others on the board. As a result, most of them do use EN a lot. But, IIRC, there was at least one evangelist who didn't use EN all that much, but still was knowledgable & helpful on the board.

EN does not give more weight to what the evangelists think or like. EN has it's own roadmap that probably gets modified as they see fit.

[tardis 87]

That's kind of a disheartening statement. What constitutes a power user's need and a novice user's need? Is the search explanation bar for power users only? Are the style over substance changes of the popup and card view for novice users? Aren't power users more likely to pay for Evernote Premium over novice users?

And why does a piece of software have to be dumbed down for novice users to be able to use it too? Scrivener is a great example of this. It's one of the most powerful pieces of writing tools I've ever used. I don't think there's anything a writer can't do in it. But I can set my technologically illiterate mother to using it with a quick fifteen minute tutorial. She doesn't use the power tools but can easily utilize the basic stuff. If the search explanation bar is deemed too "power user," hide it by default. In my experience with novice computer users, they don't play with options, they just use what's right in front of them. I understand Evernote doesn't want a ton of options and settings but removing basic functionality in an attempt to cater to the percentage of your user base less likely to pay for a subscription doesn't seem like the definition of "striking a balance."

[JMichaelTX 4,118]

evangelists are regarded as power users, and i think our requests tend to seem like bizarre idiosyncratic ones for a small user base. the infrequent posters seem to carry more weight, because i think they are seen as more representative of the larger user base.

In this case I think the argument of "power user" vs "normal user" is irrelevant.

This is a simple issue of parity between EN Win and EN Mac.

If the feature is useful and needed in EN Win, then it also is in EN Mac. Period.

I don't have any statistics, but it seems to me we are seeing more new users and more posts in the EN Mac forum than in the EN Win forum for the last few months. I subscribe to new threads and new posts in both forums. It sure seems that I see more Mac related threads/posts than Win.

My point? The EN Mac users are growing at a very rapid rate, maybe growing faster than EN Win users.

Of course, I really don't know. I'm sure the EN folks have this data if they care to share.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,320]

well, as jm's screenshot shows in excruciating detail, the windows client is just fantastic at displaying information. i'm totally cool with the streamlined mac version, but we ought to at least have the option to see this kind of stuff. the loss of the search explanation bar hit me a lot harder than i thought it would. i rely so much on note filtering, and without knowing what i am filtering, i feel like a blind man fumbling around in the dark.

I think you're trying to be a diplomat, GM. I don't think you are really "totally cool with the streamlined mac version".

After all, you've said that you are about ready to jump ship and move from the Mac to Win.

GrumpyMonkey and JMichael, you're making me increasingly Windows-curious. I thought once I went Mac I'd never go back, but since Evernote and Chrome make up the vast majority of my computer use, a good Windows computer (not like the crappy netbook I had recently) might be an overall upgrade for me.

Peter, I feel your pain. For me, the overall Mac experience is just too much better than Windows.

But the real deal-breaker with Windows is that there is no Win ultrabook that even begins to compare with the MacBook Air.

Anyway, surely if Evernote continues to hear from a lot of its Mac users about the lack of parity with EN Win, they will bump up the priority of adding the missing features I cite below in my signature. Surely Evernote has to listen to its Evangelists!

evangelists are regarded as power users, and i think our requests tend to seem like bizarre idiosyncratic ones for a small user base. the infrequent posters seem to carry more weight, because i think they are seen as more representative of the larger user base.

as for the mac client, i actually like how it looks. it is gray and gloomy, but that resonates with my grumpy soul! what i don't agree with are decisions to remove functionality, take away the ability to customize our experience, and a striking lack of parity with our windows brethren. in the past i have said that the two platforms are kind of separate but equal, different but not necessarily better or worse. recent experience with mac's loss of features has changed my mind. i'll take the streamlined mac interface as a default for that general use case, but i want options so that i can do my stuff. windows has it all right now, and i don't know why.

[peterfmartin 221]

Surely Evernote has to listen to bold text!

[JMichaelTX 4,118]

well, as jm's screenshot shows in excruciating detail, the windows client is just fantastic at displaying information. i'm totally cool with the streamlined mac version, but we ought to at least have the option to see this kind of stuff. the loss of the search explanation bar hit me a lot harder than i thought it would. i rely so much on note filtering, and without knowing what i am filtering, i feel like a blind man fumbling around in the dark.

I think you're trying to be a diplomat, GM. I don't think you are really "totally cool with the streamlined mac version".

After all, you've said that you are about ready to jump ship and move from the Mac to Win.

GrumpyMonkey and JMichael, you're making me increasingly Windows-curious. I thought once I went Mac I'd never go back, but since Evernote and Chrome make up the vast majority of my computer use, a good Windows computer (not like the crappy netbook I had recently) might be an overall upgrade for me.

Peter, I feel your pain. For me, the overall Mac experience is just too much better than Windows.

But the real deal-breaker with Windows is that there is no Win ultrabook that even begins to compare with the MacBook Air.

Anyway, surely if Evernote continues to hear from a lot of its Mac users about the lack of parity with EN Win, they will bump up the priority of adding the missing features I cite below in my signature. Surely Evernote has to listen to its Evangelists!

[GrumpyMonkey 4,320]

windows is nice. i really like seven, there are some solid machines out there, and evernote rocks on the platform.

i need macrons, though, and windows apparently has them, but the input process is clumsy. if i could see a way for it to be a little less clumsy, i might switch back to windows. if i didn't have this admittedly uncommon need, i'd be there already.

don't get me wrong. i love macs, and i am quite pleased with the experience on the mbps an mbas, but software matters, and if i spend all my day in evernote, and evernote on windows is a better experience, then... i guess it is bootcamp. i'll probably spend the cash at some point to make it happen.

[peterfmartin 221]

baffling and shocking to me as well. apparently, it is/was in snow leopard and the feature got removed ages ago for lions. when i upgraded to lion, i leapt onto the beta forums whining about how they had taken away a key feature. i was told that it wasn't the beta, but a totally separate experience all of the lions had been complaining about for a long time. i wish i had paid more attention / known before upgrading

I'm usually a slow adopter for no good reason. I'm really glad I didn't upgrade to Lion before knowing about this. I didn't and don't have a specific reason to upgrade, but now I have a specific reason not to upgrade, and I plan to stick with Snow Leopard until I hear Evernote has changed this.

GrumpyMonkey and JMichael, you're making me increasingly Windows-curious. I thought once I went Mac I'd never go back, but since Evernote and Chrome make up the vast majority of my computer use, a good Windows computer (not like the crappy netbook I had recently) might be an overall upgrade for me.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,320]

It's baffling that this was removed from the Mac client. When I search for something now, I don't know exactly how many results I have and getting out of the search itself can be a tedious combination of clicking the back button several times or changing notebooks.

Was there ever an official explanation or statement on why this was removed?

baffling and shocking to me as well. apparently, it is/was in snow leopard and the feature got removed ages ago for lions. when i upgraded to lion, i leapt onto the beta forums whining about how they had taken away a key feature. i was told that it wasn't the beta, but a totally separate experience all of the lions had been complaining about for a long time. i wish i had paid more attention / known before upgrading

well, as jm's screenshot shows in excruciating detail, the windows client is just fantastic at displaying information. i'm totally cool with the streamlined mac version, but we ought to at least have the option to see this kind of stuff. the loss of the search explanation bar hit me a lot harder than i thought it would. i rely so much on note filtering, and without knowing what i am filtering, i feel like a blind man fumbling around in the dark.

[tardis 87]

It's baffling that this was removed from the Mac client. When I search for something now, I don't know exactly how many results I have and getting out of the search itself can be a tedious combination of clicking the back button several times or changing notebooks.

Was there ever an official explanation or statement on why this was removed?

[JMichaelTX 4,118]

Are EN planning to bring the Mac client functionality up to that on Windows?

In the Windows client when I select a saved search there is a REALLY useful box at the head of the notes list that shows the make-up of the save search and allows it to be edited.

If I understand you correctly, I think this is called the "Search Explanation Bar".

Here's a screen shot of EN Win showing it, highlighted in pink:

[Metrodon 2,188]

It was there, then they took it away, it may come back.

If you search the forum you will find a fair bit of discussion about it.