(Archived) REQUEST: View notebooks I own and notebooks shared with me together

[Heavy Doody 0]

I'm a premium subscriber. My wife is not. I have some notebooks shared with her.

As far as I can tell, she currently has to switch over to the "Shared" tab to see those I've shared with her. Is there a preference I'm missing somewhere that would allow her to see her subscribed and hers all together?

Thanks.

[spg SCOTT 736]

On the original request, of combining the two, I think this is possibly a use case where the Favorites bar comes in.

If you have a notebook of your own (e.g. your default one) and the shared notebook pinned to it, then you can switch between the standard/shared notebooks easier.

The clever thing is, that when doing so, other parts of the favorites bar mirror this change, so the tags/notebook dropdowns will show the shared tags or notebook list.

Switching between them is a lot easier then imo.

(I find it much easier since I have the left panel disabled, and with this setup, I feel like I am just using EN normally in my own notebooks)

[Boatguy 49]

Very disappointing. Being told that the company will take an "incremental" approach sounds like further development of EN is hampered by the original architecture which never envisioned being a collaboration product. Fair enough as the product does a nice job of being a personal tool, but the sharing of notebooks is a tease and in some ways misleading.

EN might have fewer unhappy users if they called them "published" Notebooks, rather than "Shared", as that is what has actually be implemented. "Shared" implies a whole set of functionality which the product may reach some day, but apparently not in the lifespan of any project that a user initiates in 2012.

[Jackolicious 808]

I may be asking Evernote to move a mountain or do something similarly impossible

Perhaps, but rather than embark on a drastic sisyphean quest for "together better" and risking inconsistent experiences for the many users who are used to the current functionality, we are taking an incremental approach to improving sharing. As dlu mentioned, your best bet (and what we truly appreciate) is to keep downloading the betas, using these features, and reporting on your experiences.

[heather 604]

Yes, exactly that. Thanks!

[johnmontfx 8]

Just following up, heather -- is that the type of thing you're looking for regarding thoughts/input?

[johnmontfx 8]

As I'm the guy who convinced our small company to switch our ten guys over to Evernote Sponsored Group from Google Docs and even 37signals, I do have some pain points in the current implementation right now apart from what I mentioned above. Thanks for asking.

Some points:

• In the sharing settings, Sponsored users should be able to easily select other sponsored users in our group to add. This, instead of having to enter email addresses every time
  
• Sponsored users shouldn't have to click in an email to see a shared notebook. They should just appear as a shared notebook. I say this because several of users have missed the email invites. Sharing with other users...it makes sense to handle things with the invite.
  
• I feel stacks should be sharable (I commented on this elsewhere). It would make the previous two points much less painful as well
  
• Shared notebook settings should inherit the default sync time by default (the one set in Preferences for the app)
  
• Sponsored users should be able to see who has access to a shared notebook. The way sharing is set up is by the "owner" of the notebook, which is fine. But a lot of us have been curious who else can see the notebook.
  

As far as tags, couldn't this be handled as "your tags" and "shared tags"? Right now Evernote has "Hide Unassigned Tags". Couldn't this include a "Show/Hide Shared Tags"?

And to be clear, even though I posted the mockup as a workaround of sorts, I really think that long term it would be best to see a single "Notebooks" listing with different icons for folders you are sharing and folders which are shared. I really and truly do appreciate the engineering and architectural concerns (the under the hood stuff), but from an end user standpoint I do feel the two tabs/two sections wall is a distinction we could do without and it would make things better for the end user.

[heather 604]

As the employee who pulled back the curtain a bit and clarified how our shared notebooks are coded, I can tell you that, at the present time - nothing has changed in that regard.

However, as Jackolicious' comments implied, we *are* very interested in changing this. And we're working on making it better, so discussions like this, and mockups, and all that is definitely important. What we'd love to know is:

What can we do to make sharing better? (We're not trying to overtake Google, here. We're Evernote. But thinking in terms of how you use Evernote - what would make it better for you to collaborate with?)

Obviously, having the shared notebooks be on the same screen would be a big help, but what about the tags that go with those notebooks? Where will those go? How would you like those to appear? Do you want someone else's tags to automatically get added into your account just because they've shared a notebook with you? It could get pretty messy, fast. And how will we present them to the mobile clients?

These are questions we're asking ourselves internally, things we need to answer before we change things up.

We're open to suggestions here. You don't need to know the intricacies of the code to tell us what our end result *should* be. As Jackolicious said, we'd love to hear from you on your pain points, and as dlu just said - he liked the direction of that mockup

[dlu 628]

I've read this thread and I've read the other thread about the programming issues behind it -- and it has been an interesting discussion. I've been using Evernote for years, but about a month ago switched over our company to using it for collaboration. Try as I might, I find the separate "Account" and "Shared" tabs problematic. I understand the programming reasons behind it, but I'm not sure why something like the mockup I attached here would be out of the question.

I respectfully submit that the product would be much better if the lines between shared and personal notes was much more blurred -- or that the proverbial wall was much shorter. The challenge is in the UI, yes. However, basically apart from this issue, I think the designers at Evernote do a great job. I think they've done an admirable job of making the software easy to use and not cumbersome...that's hard as you add more and more features.

What might this blurring of lines help do and what could be done to make it easier?

• When you're looking for information, an end user shouldn't have to care whether a notebook is a shared one or not.
  
• We could easily see all available notebooks. This would simplify switching back and forth between the various notebooks (personal and shared).
  
• It follows that we could easily see all available notes
  
• You could easily drag and drop from your own notebook to a shared notebook
  
• Icons/info in the Notes list could convey whether a note is shared
  
• The status bar for a note could indicate whether one has write access
  
• It really seems like an unnecessary step from an end user standpoint. I also feel that things like "All Notes" should really be "All Notes"
  
• Default sync times would carry across all notebooks. In other words, adding a shared notebook should reflect the preference setting (Preferences:Sync)
  

These things just seem to be a few items that bring *more* consistency across the notebooks. I'm sure tags could be treated in a meaningful way as well.

Just some thoughts...thanks for listening.

What follows is a very rough mockup on how the two types of notes could be displayed in the current UI -- without any other changes. I'm not sure why this would be objectionable...but I've worked on enough beta programs to know that what seems easy isn't ever easy.

By the way -- the favorites thing was a great tip. Thanks!

Like the direction

[johnmontfx 8]

I've read this thread and I've read the other thread about the programming issues behind it -- and it has been an interesting discussion. I've been using Evernote for years, but about a month ago switched over our company to using it for collaboration. Try as I might, I find the separate "Account" and "Shared" tabs problematic. I understand the programming reasons behind it, but I'm not sure why something like the mockup I attached here would be out of the question.

I respectfully submit that the product would be much better if the lines between shared and personal notes was much more blurred -- or that the proverbial wall was much shorter. The challenge is in the UI, yes. However, basically apart from this issue, I think the designers at Evernote do a great job. I think they've done an admirable job of making the software easy to use and not cumbersome...that's hard as you add more and more features.

What might this blurring of lines help do and what could be done to make it easier?

• When you're looking for information, an end user shouldn't have to care whether a notebook is a shared one or not.
  
• We could easily see all available notebooks. This would simplify switching back and forth between the various notebooks (personal and shared).
  
• It follows that we could easily see all available notes
  
• You could easily drag and drop from your own notebook to a shared notebook
  
• Icons/info in the Notes list could convey whether a note is shared
  
• The status bar for a note could indicate whether one has write access
  
• It really seems like an unnecessary step from an end user standpoint. I also feel that things like "All Notes" should really be "All Notes"
  
• Default sync times would carry across all notebooks. In other words, adding a shared notebook should reflect the preference setting (Preferences:Sync)
  

These things just seem to be a few items that bring *more* consistency across the notebooks. I'm sure tags could be treated in a meaningful way as well.

Just some thoughts...thanks for listening.

What follows is a very rough mockup on how the two types of notes could be displayed in the current UI -- without any other changes. I'm not sure why this would be objectionable...but I've worked on enough beta programs to know that what seems easy isn't ever easy.

By the way -- the favorites thing was a great tip. Thanks!

[dlu 628]

Thanks for posting. We've briefly revisited the issue, but nothing new to report. If that changes, you'll probably see it in a beta

[peterfmartin 221]

No, I'm not asking for a roadmap. Again, I'm inviting an update on the technical properties Heather wrote about a year ago and/or how Evernote generally views shared notebooks these days. See her quotes above (the ones from the other thread) if you're confused about what I'm interested in knowing more about. Information like this is exactly what Evernote staff share here when they post.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

No, Evernote does not post roadmaps. No, Evernote employees are not expected to post here, as this is the user forum. I'm not asking for a roadmap, and I'm not expecting anyone from Evernote to respond. I'm inviting anyone who knows the current status of or thinking behind shared notebooks to comment on whether what Heather wrote a year ago is still current.

IOW, "yes, I know they don't publish this info, but I'm asking anyway."

[peterfmartin 221]

... and, relatedly, that users who don't know the insides of Evernote's software or plans for the future don't weigh in saying that this is impossible ...

And no users, unless they are also employees of EN know "the insides of Evernote's software or plans for the future."

Sorry for messing up that sentence and being unclear. "Who don't know the insides of Evernote's software or plans for the future" was meant to be a non-restrictive clause and so should have been set off with commas. I meant to be making exactly the point you said, but sloppy punctuation ruined the sentence. My mistake.

Occasionally in the past, some users have declared that a particular feature request is impossible. All I meant to do was ask fellow users (here comes an appropriately punctuated non-restrictive clause), who can't know whether a change to Evernote is possible or impossible, to refrain from saying things they don't and can't know.

As to the issue at hand (viewing shared notebooks in the same pane as one's own notebooks), IDK how possible/impossible/feasible it is. I do know that Dave & Heather have posted (what seem to me) valid replies as to why it's impossible/not feasible. Will that change tomorrow? Next week? Next year? IDK. But they seem to be steadfast in their position. I would request that you don't discount my (or anyone else's) reply which is simply reiterating what they (who indeed have insider info) have publicly stated.

Alright, you don't know. Point taken. Since Dave and Heather posted the above quotes a year ago, I hope they (or at least Heather or other employees currently active here) will consider my post an invitation to update us on this, especially since this issue has been discussed in other topics and Jackolicious's post, at least, hints that Evernote's thinking on this issue may be evolving. No, Evernote does not post roadmaps. No, Evernote employees are not expected to post here, as this is the user forum. I'm not asking for a roadmap, and I'm not expecting anyone from Evernote to respond. I'm inviting anyone who knows the current status of or thinking behind shared notebooks to comment on whether what Heather wrote a year ago is still current.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

I read the conversation from a year ago that BNF linked to, so I see how it devolved into pointless bickering. I request that users who don't value the sharing I'm asking for don't weigh in saying how much they don't value it, since that's not particularly helpful, and, relatedly, that users who don't know the insides of Evernote's software or plans for the future don't weigh in saying that this is impossible. If Evernote staff, on the other hand, know that this is impossible or otherwise never going to happen, it would of course be helpful to hear so from those who manage the program.

Since this is a users forum (as has been pointed out repeatedly), most posts are made by users. And no users, unless they are also employees of EN know "the insides of Evernote's software or plans for the future." Yes, there are a few of us who repeatedly regurgitate what EN employees have stated The reason for that is to impart/re-impart what one (or more) EN employees have stated in the past. Not that we are minions. Rather, we've been around longer than some (many?) of the other users & we know the SOP or we remember (and have Evernoted) the previous threads/posts. And there are more of us than EN employees so we often get the answer to a user before an EN employee may. Additionally, when we're regurgitating this info, it's info that (mostly) can be found by the OP, if only the OP had used the search function. Is that helpful? I'd guess so.

Sometimes we ALL post that we think X is of no value to us. No harm in that. And, sometimes, it's not that something is impossible. It's just that it's either not on the roadmap or very low priority. As you (PFM) know, EN does not share/publish this info.

As to the issue at hand (viewing shared notebooks in the same pane as one's own notebooks), IDK how possible/impossible/feasible it is. I do know that Dave & Heather have posted (what seem to me) valid replies as to why it's impossible/not feasible. Will that change tomorrow? Next week? Next year? IDK. But they seem to be steadfast in their position. I would request that you don't discount my (or anyone else's) reply which is simply reiterating what they (who indeed have insider info) have publicly stated.

[peterfmartin 221]

Thanks for the link, BNF. Let me lodge the request (made before, I know) for the functionality OP asked about.

Seeing the old conversation is very helpful because Dave Engberg and Heather did a good job explaining why, from the technical side that Evernote has to manage, shared and non-shared notebooks are completely different:

The notes in your own account have properties that cross notebooks. For example, the tags in your own account can be applied to any of the notes in your own account, and deleting that tag from your own account removes it from all of those notes.

Notes in other people's notebooks have different properties. Some shared notebooks are "read only", and the set of tags in other people's accounts are different from your tags. So trying to merge them all together would lead to a lot of strange inconsistencies (e.g. related to tags and permissions).

We understand that from *your* perspective that it's the same, but they're really, really not the same thing.

We agree from a usability standpoint, it *would* be really awesome for them to be on the same screen. However, it would really, really make things horribly awful if things go awry.

No, it's not just read-only notebooks. It's all notebooks. The properties of a notebook in *your* account are entirely different from the properties of a notebook in someone else's. Their NotebookGUID list is not the same. They don't have the same tag structure that you do.

You are allowed 250 notebooks in your account. That's it. No more. There's a notebook table that allows 250 of them. Shared notebooks do not go into that table. They're in an entirely different place. They do not cross.

Which is why we've been saying that we understand, for usability, yes, it would be cool, but from a programming perspective, it does not work.

Ok, maybe this will explain it:

You know how when you bookmark something in a web page, you get a nice little hyperlink that goes to that page, loads it in your browser, makes it look nice - and you can even do a "view offline" so you have that page available whenever you want, but you don't actually own the the actual page on your computer for other people to go to when they click it on Google? That's shared notebooks.

Based on all that, while recognizing I may be asking Evernote to move a mountain or do something similarly impossible, my request is that Evernote (if you haven't already done so under the surface) fundamentally change shared notebook so that the user experience is that of a truly shared notebook, meaning a notebook that two or more users have the same access to and experience in the same way. As Heather wrote a year ago, "We understand that from *your* perspective that it's the same, but they're really, really not the same thing." Thanks to her explanation, I understand and appreciate what she means, but I want to point out the conflict that presents to users: When something seems it should work one way (a shared notebooks initially appears to work like any other notebook, at least for the user who creates it, and Evernote promotion of the program's sharing capabilities does not often make distinctions between how shared and non-shared notebooks work) and then doesn't work that way, it makes the program more difficult to use. Similarly, picking up on when Heather wrote, "Which is why we've been saying that we understand, for usability, yes, it would be cool, but from a programming perspective, it does not work," I hope the Evernote attitude on usability has changed some in the last year, recognizing that this functionality would be a lot more than "cool" for many users—many of whom are attracted to the program by what Evernote says it can do for teams of users. It does seem that that thinking has changed, because of how extensively Evernote in recent months has promoted the product as a tool for collaborating. But if it will never be true, as marketed, that Evernote is something that groups of people can use to easily share information in more than one direction, and instead it is and will always be true that "from a programming perspective, it does not work," I hope Evernote will market its sharing capabilities differently and stop promoting shared notebooks as "a great way to work together with your friends, colleagues and classmates." The key there, and in all similar promotions of shared notebooks, is the "work together" or "collaborate" mentioned elsewhere, the suggested idea that shared notebooks can be used in the same way by more than one user and that they are truly collaborative.

At the least, I hope Jackolicious was speaking for more than just himself when he recently wrote:

Hey everyone,

We have recently renewed our commitment to make sharing in Evernote more usable and fun. So as you use the product, please continue to post your opinions. What we read here is invaluable in helping us build a better product!

Thanks and keep the great ideas coming!

http://discussion.ev...-w-web-clipper/

It seems to me that what Heather wrote about the programming of shared notebooks means that it was, at the time she wrote that, impossible for shared notebooks to become more "usable and fun" than they currently are. So I hope I'm either reading her wrong, or that Evernote has already changed how shared notebooks are programmed and has UI changes coming eventually, or that the programmers will find a way to change how shared notebooks are programmed. As it is, a lot of us don't find shared notebooks in their current form too usable or fun, at least not for the types of collaboration Evernote suggests we use them for.

I read the conversation from a year ago that BNF linked to, so I see how it devolved into pointless bickering. I request that users who don't value the sharing I'm asking for don't weigh in saying how much they don't value it, since that's not particularly helpful, and, relatedly, that users who don't know the insides of Evernote's software or plans for the future don't weigh in saying that this is impossible. If Evernote staff, on the other hand, know that this is impossible or otherwise never going to happen, it would of course be helpful to hear so from those who manage the program.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

As far as I can tell, she currently has to switch over to the "Shared" tab to see those I've shared with her. Is there a preference I'm missing somewhere that would allow her to see her subscribed and hers all together?

No.