(Archived) Will never trust EN with important information again

[salgud 12]

I posted here a few days ago about how to backup my EN note with all my passwords that was in my local notebook. I was told just to put the note in my shared/cloud notebook until after I reinstalled my system and it would be there when I wanted to put it back in my unshared local notebook, where I normally keep it. I moved it to my cloud notebook, made sure it was there afterward. I've just reinstalled my system, reinstalled EN, and that note is gone. Way to go EN!

The only other time I put important information in EN was a few years ago when I put my Master Password in a note and encrypted it. When I unencrypted, it was gone. Fortunately, that time, it was only one password and I knew that it was. Not so with these, there were probably thirty or more. Gone.

WARNING: Never, never, never, never entrust important information to cloud storage or to EN. You will lose it!

[jefito 5,589]

@drhugh: Relax please. Nobody called anybody else a fool. Definition of "play the fool":

Idiom:

play/act the fool

1.

To act in an irresponsible or foolish manner.

2.

To behave in a playful or comical manner.

Posting guidelines differ from site to site. Evernote's are here: http://discussion.evernote.com/index.php?app=core&module=help; see the Forum Code of Conduct.

See BnF's latest for more details on Evernote's syncing behavior.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

I think part of the issue here is terminology, and context. The people that have used EN for a long time know that a "synced notebook" is one that will auto-sync for you... after a while. Those of us that are new would (and I might argue, reasonably) assume that a "synced notebook" doesn't need to be manually synced, ever. It just happens. Thus, "synced" in the past tense. It was user error for sure, but the original instructions did not say to manually sync the synced folder (say that a few times and let it sink in...), so there appears to be some actual ambiguity.

I emphasised the word 'manually' in your post b/c you're "assuming" it must be a manual sync. Not so. Any cloud service requires sync'ing. Dropbox/Sugar Sync/iCloud. Doesn't matter if it's automatic or manual. A sync just needs to occur. The mere fact of putting a file into your Dropbox folder or moving an Evernote from a local notebook to a sync'd one doesn't perform the magic. A sync needs to occur. If you put something into your Dropbox folder but have no internet connection, guess what? The file will NOT be in the cloud unless & until there is an internet connection & a sync can occur.

The OP posted "I didn't sync." If OP had either manually sync'd or left his Mac client open long enough to sync (if he had auto sync'ing set up), then OP would have been fine.

Hi excuse intervention - I've been using EN for over 24 months now. There ARE differences between Dropbox and EN; yes you can set up Auto sync on EN and it will refresh Datasync albeit at a specified frequency. Dropbox on the other hand automatically and instantly refreshes sync, though yes provided there is an Internet Connection.

Say what? You seem to be saying exactly what I said, which is, that all cloud apps, repeat, ALL cloud apps require syncing.

but the important issue here is not that DB won't sync without one but rather that it is pretty much instant.

(snip)

I agree that checking out the manual before use is essential, as with all software! And like all software, there will be moments of frustration - the biggest of which remains that I can't access the DB UNLESS Internet connected - but then I'm sure I'd not be especially happy to be porting the entire DB around on my handheld

Yes, this was explained to OP & yes, OP should have been more cautious.

As for the exchange of pejoratives I always try to avoid heated exchanges - (and I'm not saying this is what happened) but explaining how someone failed to understand or implement an instruction / direction is always preferable to calling them foolish for failing to do so, however provoked.

That's true. But I'm apparently not as patient as yourself.

[Worfed 0]

I think part of the issue here is terminology, and context. The people that have used EN for a long time know that a "synced notebook" is one that will auto-sync for you... after a while. Those of us that are new would (and I might argue, reasonably) assume that a "synced notebook" doesn't need to be manually synced, ever. It just happens. Thus, "synced" in the past tense. It was user error for sure, but the original instructions did not say to manually sync the synced folder (say that a few times and let it sink in...), so there appears to be some actual ambiguity.

I emphasised the word 'manually' in your post b/c you're "assuming" it must be a manual sync. Not so. Any cloud service requires sync'ing. Dropbox/Sugar Sync/iCloud. Doesn't matter if it's automatic or manual. A sync just needs to occur. The mere fact of putting a file into your Dropbox folder or moving an Evernote from a local notebook to a sync'd one doesn't perform the magic. A sync needs to occur. If you put something into your Dropbox folder but have no internet connection, guess what? The file will NOT be in the cloud unless & until there is an internet connection & a sync can occur.

The OP posted "I didn't sync." If OP had either manually sync'd or left his Mac client open long enough to sync (if he had auto sync'ing set up), then OP would have been fine.

Hi excuse intervention - I've been using EN for over 24 months now. There ARE differences between Dropbox and EN; yes you can set up Auto sync on EN and it will refresh Datasync albeit at a specified frequency. Dropbox on the other hand automatically and instantly refreshes sync, though yes provided there is an Internet Connection. Both need an internet connection but the important issue here is not that DB won't sync without one but rather that it is pretty much instant. However, their uses are slightly different. EN is a considerably more flexible tool - I use it for personal work and random note storage - it's an information / database management tool whereas DB is more of a file sync data storage tool. The tag system makes note taking (for me primarily for writing research) extremely useful and powerful.

I agree that checking out the manual before use is essential, as with all software! And like all software, there will be moments of frustration - the biggest of which remains that I can't access the DB UNLESS Internet connected - but then I'm sure I'd not be especially happy to be porting the entire DB around on my handheld

As for the exchange of pejoratives I always try to avoid heated exchanges - (and I'm not saying this is what happened) but explaining how someone failed to understand or implement an instruction / direction is always preferable to calling them foolish for failing to do so, however provoked. It will hopefully avoid further issues If they persist in the pejorative exchange then there are always plenty of other things to be doing then affording them time out of a usually busy day in furthering the exchange!

Anyway back to trawling for the answer I need on an only partially related issue lol!!

PS Nice to see the informative tone in the forums!!

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

As mentioned before, this is a dead thread, and I think we can all agree that there was a miscommunication that occurred between Evernote and this customer.

I don't know who to blame. My own feeling is that things could have been explained better to the customer (as I mentioned above) and that the customer could have asked if there was any confusion (also mentioned above). Some of this kind of miscommunication, despite everyone's best intentions, can occur because of differences in culture, age, etc.

Anyhow, given the inflammatory title of the thread and the fact that the op is apparently not hanging around to discuss it with us, I think this would be a great opportunity to drop the thread. Maybe we could start a new one on the topic of customer service: what kinds of best practices have impressed you at various companies? This seems more constructive to me

[Michael Campbell 4]

I think part of the issue here is terminology, and context. The people that have used EN for a long time know that a "synced notebook" is one that will auto-sync for you... after a while. Those of us that are new would (and I might argue, reasonably) assume that a "synced notebook" doesn't need to be manually synced, ever. It just happens. Thus, "synced" in the past tense. It was user error for sure, but the original instructions did not say to manually sync the synced folder (say that a few times and let it sink in...), so there appears to be some actual ambiguity.

I emphasised the word 'manually' in your post b/c you're "assuming" it must be a manual sync. Not so. Any cloud service requires sync'ing. Dropbox/Sugar Sync/iCloud. Doesn't matter if it's automatic or manual. A sync just needs to occur. The mere fact of putting a file into your Dropbox folder or moving an Evernote from a local notebook to a sync'd one doesn't perform the magic. A sync needs to occur. If you put something into your Dropbox folder but have no internet connection, guess what? The file will NOT be in the cloud unless & until there is an internet connection & a sync can occur.

The OP posted "I didn't sync." If OP had either manually sync'd or left his Mac client open long enough to sync (if he had auto sync'ing set up), then OP would have been fine.

I'm assuming nothing; I know how it works. You read the part where I agreed it was user error, right?

I stated that when a folder is listed as a "synced folder", it's reasonable to assume stuff you put in it will be synced for you. If you're coming from a dropbox background, it's damn near instantaneous, every time. I save files in DB folders and I can see the DB icon "syncing" it for me before my finger gets off the "s" key from the save. Perhaps that's what the OP thought. He'd've been incorrect in doing so, but my only assertion was that this incorrect assumption is not unreasonable.

I understand you want everyone to have the same understanding of EN that you do, but we don't, and berating and treating misassumptions about it as if they are personal affronts is not helpful.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

I think part of the issue here is terminology, and context. The people that have used EN for a long time know that a "synced notebook" is one that will auto-sync for you... after a while. Those of us that are new would (and I might argue, reasonably) assume that a "synced notebook" doesn't need to be manually synced, ever. It just happens. Thus, "synced" in the past tense. It was user error for sure, but the original instructions did not say to manually sync the synced folder (say that a few times and let it sink in...), so there appears to be some actual ambiguity.

I emphasised the word 'manually' in your post b/c you're "assuming" it must be a manual sync. Not so. Any cloud service requires sync'ing. Dropbox/Sugar Sync/iCloud. Doesn't matter if it's automatic or manual. A sync just needs to occur. The mere fact of putting a file into your Dropbox folder or moving an Evernote from a local notebook to a sync'd one doesn't perform the magic. A sync needs to occur. If you put something into your Dropbox folder but have no internet connection, guess what? The file will NOT be in the cloud unless & until there is an internet connection & a sync can occur.

The OP posted "I didn't sync." If OP had either manually sync'd or left his Mac client open long enough to sync (if he had auto sync'ing set up), then OP would have been fine.

[Michael Campbell 4]

I think part of the issue here is terminology, and context. The people that have used EN for a long time know that a "synced notebook" is one that will auto-sync for you... after a while. Those of us that are new would (and I might argue, reasonably) assume that a "synced notebook" doesn't need to be manually synced, ever. It just happens. Thus, "synced" in the past tense. It was user error for sure, but the original instructions did not say to manually sync the synced folder (say that a few times and let it sink in...), so there appears to be some actual ambiguity.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

BurgersNFries may have read more of Salgud's posts than are visible here, but BurgersNFries conclusion, that Salgud did not have an internet connection, yet expected syncing to take place, is not evidenced here.

I quoted this to you in post #9 of this thread. But I'll repeat myself: In post #6 of this thread, Salgud posted the following:

I didn't sync after moving the note,

So yes, it's clear this was a user error. Salgud moved the note to a sync'd notebook BUT DID NOT SYNC. Then Salgud expected his/her note to be in the cloud.

[drhugh 1]

Thanks gbarry! Very informative. Both you and GrumpMonkey agree there is an option for automatic syncing. It may be that Salgud, or Salgud's adviser, believed automatic syncing had been set up.

BurgersNFries may have read more of Salgud's posts than are visible here, but BurgersNFries conclusion, that Salgud did not have an internet connection, yet expected syncing to take place, is not evidenced here. Therefore, Evernote or Salgud could have failed to sync.

As for BurgersNSync's claim that the word 'fool' being benign, the best I can say is "Fooled me". Most native speakers recognize the word as pejorative.

As for the Forum's guidelines, they start with the admonition to follow the 'golden rule'. So to be clear, I don't want to be called a fool. Let's stay on topic and try to be informative about the Evernote product. The guidelines also say not to belabor a point, so this will be the last i post about the matter.

[gbarry 2,658]

GrumpyMonkey - Thanks for the contact name - I'll contact Heather to get a link to a manual. I so far have only seen Evernote offer a pageful of videos explaining Evernote.

This is probably easiest way to find a baseline answer (or just continue asking the forum): https://support.evernote.com/ics/support/KBSplash.asp

If you have any specific issues, you can always contact support though.

It's worth mentioning that Evernote *does* auto-sync, but only intermittently. You can also manually sync. If you want to double check to make sure something has synced, use Evernote Web to ensure it's up there. The web version represents what is essentially on the servers, whereas, if you were on a Mac or iPhone or something you'd be seeing whatever your last sync was, offline notes, etc.

[drhugh 1]

Thanks GrumpyMonkey - that answers my question. If you say that there is an auto sync as well as a manual sync, and that both work, then the user failed to use those features correctly - or there was an anomalous glitch.I am encouraged to go forward with Evernote!

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

I'm trying to learn about this problem because I am considering using Evernote.

BurgersNFries latest post implies that if the user took no action to 'sync' a 'shared/cloud notebook', then one could not expect the note to be in the cloud.

It would seem something called a 'shared/cloud notebook' would be automatically synced - is this not the case?

I'm used to Dropbox, (which does sync automatically whatever is put in it), but i am thinking of using Evernote.

--------------------

GrumpyMonkey - Thanks for the contact name - I'll contact Heather to get a link to a manual. I so far have only seen Evernote offer a pageful of videos explaining Evernote. However, since Salgud did not say he had a support ticket, I could not have known that. How did you know?

As for BurgerNFries - I stand corrected. The posts show that you and Salgud called each other "fools" and not "idiots". Both remarks seem a violation of the posting guidelines of most sites.

Hi. You are welcome. I wouldn't worry about this "problem." I think it is really just a matter of exploring the capabilities and performance characteristics of an application, which you are doing now. As for the support ticket, I assumed the messages he exchanged with Evernote ("I was told") indicated direct contact with them. Anyhow, the issue is about syncing. As long as you sync (easily done manually any time you want, or at a regular interval that can be adjusted on the Mac and Windows client), then your data is quite reliably stored. As always when trying out applications you are unfamiliar with you will want to have extra backups of important data. Once you get used to it, you can avoid inadvertently causing problems.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

I'm trying to learn about this problem because I am considering using Evernote.

BurgersNFries latest post implies that if the user took no action to 'sync' a 'shared/cloud notebook', then one could not expect the note to be in the cloud.

It would seem something called a 'shared/cloud notebook' would be automatically synced - is this not the case?

I'm used to Dropbox, (which does sync automatically whatever is put in it), but i am thinking of using Evernote.

To clarify, Dropbox does not auto sync if you don't have an internet connection. Salgud's situation is similar to putting something in your Dropbox folder/notebook but not having an internet connection - therefore the file/note doesn't get uploaded/sync'd to the "cloud".

Evernote doesn't sync every single second. I'd guess at least one reason for this is that unlike Dropbox, EN uses an upload limit. Dropbox allows you X gigs of space. You can upload X-1 gigs & then delete everything & then add another X-1 gigs of data in a single month. EN functions differently. You're allowed X upload space period. If you have a 30 mb PDF & sync it, then modify it by adding 10 mb & sync, you've now used up 70 mb of your upload limit. Download space is unlimited. Which means you can download any/all your notes to any number of computers/devices.

[drhugh 1]

I'm trying to learn about this problem because I am considering using Evernote.

BurgersNFries latest post implies that if the user took no action to 'sync' a 'shared/cloud notebook', then one could not expect the note to be in the cloud.

It would seem something called a 'shared/cloud notebook' would be automatically synced - is this not the case?

I'm used to Dropbox, (which does sync automatically whatever is put in it), but i am thinking of using Evernote.

--------------------

GrumpyMonkey - Thanks for the contact name - I'll contact Heather to get a link to a manual. I so far have only seen Evernote offer a pageful of videos explaining Evernote. However, since Salgud did not say he had a support ticket, I could not have known that. How did you know?

As for BurgerNFries - I stand corrected. The posts show that you and Salgud called each other "fools" and not "idiots". Both remarks seem a violation of the posting guidelines of most sites.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

@drhugh

This is an old thread. The original poster hasn't logged in for a month now. And, this is a user forum where Evernote staff sometimes comment, but are not expected to do so. Salgud had a support ticket and already had direct contact with Evernote about the issue. If you are really concerned about this (the inadequate customer service of Evernote?) I'd contact Heather (Customer Service at Evernote) or another member of the staff directly.

Unfortunately, we are unlikely to find out all of the details in this particular case, so there isn't much left to discuss. My opinion? It sounds to me like the support from Evernote was adequate and accurate. They told him to sync. He did not. And, he admitted that he probably should have (as per their directions). But, I think the support in general could provide both directions and reasons. Often times we receive instructions on what to do without ones for why to do it. Once you learn the "why" of it (you can always ask) then you can sometimes change your workflow or do something else that will improve the situation (this is what I have found).

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

BurgersNFries writes of her enthusiasm for Evernote ("my Evernote sings & is an integral part of my life"), but focuses on Salgud's failure to mistrust Evernote rather than the technical problem (if there is one) with Evernote.

Did you read the thread? This is a user error:

I didn't sync after moving the note,

...so no need for me to comment on the technical problem with Evernote, since there wasn't one.

Can we get back to the tech problem with Evernote, since that is what this forum is about? Calling a user of an app an idiot for trusting it is not the best tech support for the product! Nor the best 'evangelizing' for the product!

First, see paragraph above. Second, I didn't call the user an idiot.

If you're not using the app correctly, there is no reason to blame the app. It's rather like blaming your ISP or your email client because someone didn't get the email you sent when the reality was that you composed the email but didn't click "send".

[drhugh 1]

This thread is troubling, mainly because Evernote has not responded to the issue of whether their instructions to Salgud were adequate.

BurgersNFries writes of her enthusiasm for Evernote ("my Evernote sings & is an integral part of my life"), but focuses on Salgud's failure to mistrust Evernote rather than the technical problem (if there is one) with Evernote.

Can we get back to the tech problem with Evernote, since that is what this forum is about? Calling a user of an app an idiot for trusting it is not the best tech support for the product! Nor the best 'evangelizing' for the product!

Salgud - The issue seems to be that you put the note in a synced notebook and expected it to be synced to the cloud. You only say you put it in your 'cloud notebook'. You were on the Evernote website on your computer? Or were you using the Evernote app on a hand-held device?

What machine were you on, what program were you running at the time you confirmed that the file was "there".

Perhaps by turning off the handheld device before the sync to the cloud was performed.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

@Burgers and Fries

"Regarding encryption...if you don't remember the encryption password, yes, you will lose the data. That's rather the point of encryption".

I suggest you read a post more carefully before commenting, unless you enjoy playing the fool.

I didn't sync after moving the note, so I guess I should read the manual before I do anything. here are the instructions I was given:

"Copy the note to one of your notebooks that is synced. When you have reinstalled your machine and sync'd evernote - move the note to a local notebook."

My mistake, I trusted someone who sounded knowledgeable.

Speaking of playing the fool... the point of moving a note to a sync'd notebook is to, uh, sync it. (Hence the name.) I suppose to be clear the poster (not me) should have stated this. But that's normally a bit (a lot?) redundant. Otherwise, what's the point of moving it to a sync'd notebook...???

I also notice you fail to acknowledge the other methods you could have used & prefer to lay blame on others. Nice.

[salgud 12]

@Burgers and Fries

"Regarding encryption...if you don't remember the encryption password, yes, you will lose the data. That's rather the point of encryption".

I suggest you read a post more carefully before commenting, unless you enjoy playing the fool.

I didn't sync after moving the note, so I guess I should read the manual before I do anything. here are the instructions I was given:

"Copy the note to one of your notebooks that is synced. When you have reinstalled your machine and sync'd evernote - move the note to a local notebook."

My mistake, I trusted someone who sounded knowledgeable.

[Metrodon 2,184]

You should open support case - if anything did go wrong at the Evernote end then they may be able to help you. If you didn't sync, well then that's your fault I'm afraid.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

in my opinion, the lesson isn't stop entrusting info to evernote, or any other service. the lesson is to be careful with your info.

i don't know about this particular situation, but in general, it is always a good idea to build in redundancy and multiple backups. i've got time machine and multiple external hard drives going right now. let's say my house burns down tomorrow. i've got external backup in the office and backup on the cloud (not just evernote), so i've got no worries. let's say evernote goes down tomorrow. i'm fine with that too.

I guess that's what I was thinking but didn't really say. My main password manager is one I've used for ~five years. So far, it's never failed me through multiple computers, netbooks & mobile devices/smartphones. I suppose I should export & password encrypt the data for safekeeping. But I have to admit, I've never done that. BUT...I do regularly backup the data and the main file gets backed up each evening, if any changes occur. Since it's a well known/long lived application (SplashID) and resides on my iPhone, two computers & two netbooks, I still feel pretty good about that. Additionally, in the scorched Earth scenario (house burning down/Katrina event), my main "cloud" backup (Amazon S3 servers via Jungle Disk) have recent backups of my SplashID data , recent copies of the main file as well as the application. Or it's on my iPhone, which is generally near me at all times. My motto: "A girl can never be too rich, too thin or have too many backups."

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

in my opinion, the lesson isn't stop entrusting info to evernote, or any other service. the lesson is to be careful with your info.

i don't know about this particular situation, but in general, it is always a good idea to build in redundancy and multiple backups. i've got time machine and multiple external hard drives going right now. let's say my house burns down tomorrow. i've got external backup in the office and backup on the cloud (not just evernote), so i've got no worries. let's say evernote goes down tomorrow. i'm fine with that too.

[BurgersNFries 2,407]

If you put the note in a sync'd notebook & sync'd to the EN cloud, then after reinstalling OS/EN & sync'ing down, yes, that note would be there. Not sure what you did, but it sounds like you may have skipped the sync'ing up part. This is pretty much Evernote 101. If you think you did sync up to the cloud, did you confirm the note was on the EN servers by going to the web client?

Regarding encryption...if you don't remember the encryption password, yes, you will lose the data. That's rather the point of encryption.

Don't blame Evernote if you're not using it correctly.

Additionally, if this note was so very important, I would have covered my bases a couple of ways. First, the method you describe really should have worked, if you executed the steps correctly. Secondly, all you would have needed to do is copy the info to a file on a flash drive. (shrug) The fact that you lost this data is really no one's fault except your own, sorry to say.