(Archived) Open letter to Evernote: Please tell us which features are standard and which are platform specific

[gtuckerkellogg 33]

I love Evernote. I use it every day. On my Mac laptop, on my Windows desktop at the office, on my Windows desktop at home, and on my Android phone. Love it, love it, love it.

But as much as I and other users love the product, these forums are often used for recurrent, vigorous, confused, and at times ill-tempered arguments regarding missing or broken application features on different platforms. These arguments can be corrosive to the Evernote user community, presumably the most dedicated of whom are active forum users. The recurring theme of these arguments is that users do not know if missing features on one platform are a design choice, a implementation delay, a bug, or simply an oversight.

It is pretty clear that in some cases the Evernote employees don't know either. The forums are organized around products for each platform. But Evernote bills itself as being cross platform, meaning some features should work the same way on every platform. If they don't, it's a bug or an unimplemented feature. Which features are they? We don't know.

Some features will be platform specific, obviously. AppleScript client scripting is Mac specific, and that's a feature. Taking a photo directly into Evernote is a feature of camera enabled devices, primarily mobile. Import folders, it seems, are a feature of the Windows application, though they can be mimicked with some Automation on MacOS.

The highest level of platform taxonomy (today) is the distinction between desktop and mobile platforms. Some features (creating, editing, and saving notes) work on ALL platforms. Other features (editing saved searches) might be intended for desktop platforms, and still others might be specific to mobile platforms. Finally, some features might be specific to individual platforms. Evernote owes it to its development teams to decide where every single feature lies in that taxonomy, and should have no hesitation telling its users. We don't need a bug list. We need to know what features to expect where, and Evernote's development teams needs to know the same. When one development team (say, MacOS or Windows) comes up with a nifty new feature, they must decide with their brethren on the other platform whether that feature is specific to their platform or is promoted to something that should cross multiple platforms.

This note is prompted by an at times nasty discussion about editing or viewing the rules for saved searches on the Evernote for Mac forum. Editing saved searches on the Mac is currently impossible, so prompted some questions. Finally, after 47 replies, it is clear that this is a bug (thank you Evernote Employee Heather!), but it could have been resolved simply and amicably if Evernote posted a table of application features. If "editing saved searches" was a feature for all platforms, or all desktop platforms, it would have been a bug and a support request could be filed immediately. Instead, we went around in circles, with all kinds of workarounds, trying to divine if this lack of functionality was intentional. Please, Evernote, tell us which features are specific to platforms, and which are not. Tell your own teams, too, so we can all help each other make Evernote even stronger.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

i agree that more clarity would be welcome. For those of us who work on three or more platforms, it can be difficult, and some really useful features go unnoticed.

I'd also like to have known bugs (even if you don't post eta or plans for fixes) posted. google chrome, for example, does this.

[Martin Packer 162]

+1 with a minor wrinkle:

Evernote definitely should do this but it exposes more clearly the fact that some features are experimental and the roll-out is uneven across platforms. That's all fine but I wouldn't want this new clarity to discourage Evernote from being experimental. (I think there's only a slight danger of that but - speaking as someone who works in a company which has legal constraints around the way it announces things - I wouldn't want Evernote to have to commit on "day of announcement" to the taxonomy for an experimental feature.)

Martin

[Owyn 457]

Agreed. e.g. http://discussion.evernote.com/topic/20644-need-features-by-client-summary

[peterfmartin 221]

dlu explained on a topic several weeks ago why a full list of bugs and/or limitations is impossible, and I can see how a full list of functionalities would be similarly impossible. But anything toward the goal Greg laid out would be awesome, and much appreciated.

[jbenson2 2,147]

Good point by peterfmartin.

I don't think anyone expects Evernote to document every single bug and limitation.

Evernote employees put in a lot of sweat and effort to fix bugs and improve the product, but then they drop the ball by using a rather nondescript, vague 3 or 4 word description in the Release Notes.

Hey Evernote! If you improve the product, then kick the marketing department in the butt and tell them to start tooting their horn about the improvements.

Put some meat into the Release Notes for the important changes.

[heather 604]

We do have an initiative internally and are indeed working toward this. And while gtuckerkellogg's intentions are good, I want to call out something - Evernote has a lot of different products, and those products have individual managers. You can't realistically expect the Windows team to know what's in the Android client, etc, because it's not their job.

However, the Support Team *does* know what's in every product. That's *our* job. It's daunting to keep up with, especially with the over 20 individual products we have now, but we do. Unfortunately, we haven't had the *human* resources to devote to come up with a product comparison yet.

[Owyn 457]

Heather,

Evernote markets it's service as use anywhere. This results in an explicit and implicit offering of consistency across the various clients.

Support is the probably the best group to consolidate the information, but, it should not be a big job to make each product group responsible for reporting on status versus a corporate standard. QA and corporate management would also have an obvious use for the same information.

Some of this information is already forwarded to marketing to prepare the blog product update announcements.

Some examples of consistency issues include:

and of course all of the recent destructive iOS edit issues.

[jbenson2 2,147]

Heather, thank you for your comments.

You are a straight shooter and have never steered me wrong. Let me point out what concerns me.

We do have an initiative internally and are indeed working toward this.

If the initiative is just internal, it does not address the need for better communication and explanation of product improvements to the broad base of customers (not just support-request individuals, but all customers).

You can't realistically expect the Windows team to know what's in the Android client, etc, because it's not their job.

However, the Support Team *does* know what's in every product. That's *our* job.

Honestly, I mean no offense, but that might be the cause of the problem. The Support Team does a great job assisting individual users on specific support requests. Someone or some department needs to be responsible for sharing the release notes with the customer in a consistent and user friendly manner. The 3 to 4 word bulleted points are ineffective. In most companies, the job of communicating product benefits and improvements usually is quarterbacked by the marketing department.

Unfortunately, we haven't had the *human* resources to devote to come up with a product comparison yet.

Thanks. That does help explain the problem a bit more clearly.

I've seen the ads Evernote has been running for more employees.

I'll tone it back a bit. Good luck in the personnel hunt.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

We do have an initiative internally and are indeed working toward this. And while gtuckerkellogg's intentions are good, I want to call out something - Evernote has a lot of different products, and those products have individual managers. You can't realistically expect the Windows team to know what's in the Android client, etc, because it's not their job.

why not? if the support team knows (presumably via written rather than just oral transmission), i would think everyone could have the sheet(s) of paper. they don't have to know the details (coding), but if they don't know at the level we are talking about here, then it is entirely possible our users know more than the developers. that doesn't sound right to me.

However, the Support Team *does* know what's in every product. That's *our* job. It's daunting to keep up with, especially with the over 20 individual products we have now, but we do. Unfortunately, we haven't had the *human* resources to devote to come up with a product comparison yet.

really? because i have gotten some wild answers (usually canned) to some queries. but, more to the point, why do we have to contact support to find out features?

no offense intended here, but evernote is not doing any of its employees or users any favors by keeping his info secret or unorganized. as much as i like evernote, i have a very difficult time finding basic information on the website (the recently added ability to purchase an extra gb a month is one example) in general, and without the forums i'd be in the dark about freaky stuff like randomly rotating images (a bug), hypertexting dates (a bug), the ability to select multiple notes for tags (a feature oly for windows), and any number of other things.

if you know about this stuff, why not just post it?

[Martin Packer 162]

In the company I work for (and as this isn't about them or me I'll suggest the curious should Google my name) we have a mind-boggling array of products and we have Technical Support and Technical Sales. I'm in the latter and so I know we tend to "integrate in front of the customer" across that set of products and services - in Technical Sales.

How Evernote chooses to organise itself is of course its own business. But it would be useful for Marketing (despite what was said in Podcast #31 :-) ) to do the "integration" here. Or whoever has a grip on the big picture. Now, if Heather isn't in Marketing but has a grip on the products' capabilities and differences that's organisationally interesting, but not our problem.

(Actually our organisation is a good deal more complex than that but you get my drift: organisation should not be getting in the way here.)

Martin

[heather 604]

Marketing is also aware of the different features in a client, as they highlight them in their blog posts. My point is that the product comparison initiative is Support's, and that the engineers and PM's posting on this board shouldn't be expected to know what's in the other products. They still might, but they won't be experts.

If the initiative is just internal, it does not address the need for better communication and explanation of product improvements to the broad base of customers (not just support-request individuals, but all customers).

I meant that we're internally working on this right now so that we can present it best, externally.

if you know about this stuff, why not just post it?

Because we haven't had enough people ("human resources") to spend the time to write it all out - and stop actually supporting our customers and risk missing our Premium SLA.

Braindumps take time - a lot of time.

Plus, our products and features are often in a state of flux - some versions have one feature, and then it's removed, altered - and with new versions of each product being released as often as weekly, it will be a huge responsibility for the person or persons assigned to the project. We won't release this unless it's done right.

[GrumpyMonkey 4,319]

@Heather

It is good to know that you are aware of the issue and working towards a solutions. Thanks so much for putting the effort into it! Given that your products are constantly in flux, I am wondering if you will ever hit the constantly moving target and get it "right," though. I think a lot of companies struggle with this kind of issue, particularly software developers, and more often than not they end up doing a whole lot of work with too little to show for it (I have been one of those people in the past).

I can think of other more practical solutions that would drastically reduce the amount of time, effort, and money you put into it. For example, you could crowdsource this and set up a wiki on this site for users to work on. I think there are members on the forums who have lots of knowledge, experience, and willingness to contribute. Because it isn't "official," you don't have to worry about constantly maintaining it, and the lion's share of the work would be carried by your users, who have an interest in not only promoting your product, but sharing information with one another.

The forums are great, but let's face it, not the easiest way to find this kind of information.

[Metrodon 2,184]

I'm a little bit surprised that you don't have a programme manager that has an overall view of all the products, provides direction to the individual PMs and that the PMs report up to.....

[heather 604]

Again, there are some individual people within Evernote that do have more than an operational knowledge of all our product lines. My comments are not meant to shed light on or break apart our internal organizational structure. I was specifically calling out that the engineers on Evernote Windows (for example) who post on these forums are not necessarily aware of all the bells and whistles that have been added into the latest Chrome clipper. Nor should they be.

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

One of the primary features that is widely advertised by Evernote, is that it works across many platforms.

So, it seems obvious that someone would need to identify which specific features are to be implemented on each platform.

I'll call these specific features the "Core Features".

This becomes a requirement for each of the platform teams.

It seems to me that someone needs to ensure that the Core Features are implemented on a timely basis of each platform.

• I don't mean simultaneous release
  
• But it should be within a reasonable time period, especially the Windows and Mac platforms.
  

I can see that there might be three sets of Core Features:

1. Features that are required in ALL platforms
   
2. Features that are required ONLY in Desktop platforms
   
3. Features that are required ONLY in Mobile platforms
   

Just my 2c.

[peterfmartin 221]

I was specifically calling out that the engineers on Evernote Windows (for example) who post on these forums are not necessarily aware of all the bells and whistles that have been added into the latest Chrome clipper. Nor should they be.

I think we all agree that's fair. And no one here wants to pick on you (which is how it might seem if we're all pushing back every time you post), since you're awesomely helpful, here and always. But the calls here have been for something that many of us think is critically important, and should not be beyond the reach of Evernote: an easily accessible, updated (or quickly answered) database or forum with definitive and quick answers about which features exist in which clients. As GrumpyMonkey and others have pointed out, the discussion forums sometimes fill this function but often fall short—and worst of all, it often takes a number of guesses or conflicting answers from users, and sometimes even misguided answers from EN staff, before correct answers appear on the forums. Whether it's an Evernote-created database, an open-sourced one, or more active and informed participation on these forums by staff members, a lot of us are hoping for something we can refer to for quick answers to the question, "Is this thing I'm encountering on X client a feature or a bug? And is it the same on other clients?" Gtuckerkellogg, GrumpyMonkey, Martin Packer, Owyn, and jbenson have outlined different ways Evernote could implement something like this, as well as several reasons it's important (and ways it's currently lacking). We're all hoping to see something like this as soon as possible.

[gtuckerkellogg 33]

Heather, thank you for your engagement on this topic. It's good to know that there is some attempt to address this matter. As I think everyone seems to agree, not addressing it is corrosive.

I don't actually expect the Windows product team to know everything in the Android client, or vice versa. I'm heavily influenced by Evernote Marketing: every single user example on the Evernote blog leads with the Evernote tag line: "I use Evernote, everywhere". In other words, Marketing is focused on the cross-platform capabilities of Evernote, and that is great. But as Metrodon notes, deciding what will go into all the products is a design decision, made in many companies by program management. If Marketing is tasked with knowing out what is in each product after the fact and Support is tasked with tabulating what is common, of course they will always be behind and confusion will persist.

Heather, just to clarify: my original comment about the design teams in the first post was not to suggest that the product teams answer questions about individual products. Sorry if I gave that impression.

[heather 604]

Marketing is tasked with knowing out what is in each product after the fact and Support is tasked with tabulating what is common, of course they will always be behind and confusion will persist.

Marketing and Support both work with the individual product teams prior to product release so that we're aware of what's current and what's coming.

We also have internal documentation and product roadmaps, and our Head of Engineering does a remarkable job keeping all of our products under reign - however, these are not the kinds of things that the majority of users would find useful, helpful, or even marginally easy to understand, as they contain shorthand, code, jargon, etc.

[gtuckerkellogg 33]

Heather, thanks. I'm sorry if I came across negatively, it's not my intent.

[Owyn 457]

@JMichael

I can see that there might be three sets of Core Features:

1. Features that are required in ALL platforms
   
2. Features that are required ONLY in Desktop platforms
   
3. Features that are required ONLY in Mobile platforms
   

Please add to EN Mac the EN Win features that are missing.

I don't use the Mac client but have collected a bunch of hearsay difference info re. the Mac and Windows clients (e.g. Windows Assign Tags, Date-Time Stamp shortcut, etc.).

Would be interested in a more detailed list, from your perspective, of the differences between the Mac and Windows clients.

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

I don't use the Mac client but have collected a bunch of hearsay difference info re. the Mac and Windows clients (e.g. Windows Assign Tags, Date-Time Stamp shortcut, etc.).

Would be interested in a more detailed list, from your perspective, of the differences between the Mac and Windows clients.

Owyn, sorry for the long delay in response, but I just saw your request when I was doing a search.

IAC, a detailed list is now in my signature.

Let me know if you need any more info.

[Owyn 457]

Thanks. Evernoted.

[EdH 1,670]

Why not just do it ourselves, wiki style.

http://evernoteapp.wikispaces.com/Client+Feature+Comparison

I made it so you have to have a wikispaces account, but other than that, sign in, and edit away. I found this thread because I couldn't figure out how to decrypt a note on my iPad. Turns out it cannot be done right now.

Anyone up for keeping this going? I'll continue to contribute beyond the two features I threw up there if others are willing to join in.

[gbarry 2,658]

You beat us to it, EdH (btw, haven't forgotten about the notification issues)

So, the plan is going to be to attempt to attach a wiki-style service to this forum, ensuring that, rather than creating a whole new account, our forum users can slide quickly between a wiki, the forum, members, and other resources. I'm really aiming to create a world here for everyone to play in. The upshot of this is if you see something in the forum, you could just tab on over, still logged in, to the wiki side and make the correct adjustment. In the same day, we may be hosting a community chat, so you could pop into that. At the same time you may want to check on any real world meetups happening--bam, we'll have a space for that too. Etc etc.

I say all this not to dissuade you from starting it and working with users to continue to build it--I support many of the efforts of our community here, but that we definitely are aware and are making headway to put together something similar to a wiki using the tools we have here. It may be your site becomes the model for us, or that information is eventually transferred between the two, or whatever. Anyway, just FYI Go for it!

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

You beat us to it, EdH (btw, haven't forgotten about the notification issues)

So, the plan is going to be to attempt to attach a wiki-style service to this forum, ensuring that, rather than creating a whole new account, our forum users can slide quickly between a wiki, the forum, members, and other resources. I'm really aiming to create a world here for everyone to play in.

I like your idea about having one login to Everything Evernote.

And my thanks to EdH for getting the wiki ball rolling!

Geoff, how soon will your wiki be ready for contributions by users?

I ask because if it is, say, another week or so, then I would rather wait than risk conversion/retyping/re-proofing of EdH's wiki to the EN wiki. But, if it is likely to be months, then maybe we should get started with EdH's wiki.

[EdH 1,670]

Well, i don't know much about wiki language. If you go to the site I set up, hit EDIT, then hit the dropdown next to SAVE, you can get to the raw text. If that is standard, we could continue to build over there then just copy|paste here when you are ready. If it isn't portable, then no biggie. I was just spitballing.

[EdH 1,670]

Still playing around with it. http://evernoteapp.wikispaces.com/space/content should be your launch point. not sure now may pages this should have, but clearly shortcut keys go on a different page, and probably shouldn't have anything but Mac and Windows, but I've left the others there for now. I suspect they are all NA though.

[gbarry 2,658]

Geoff, how soon will your wiki be ready for contributions by users?

I ask because if it is, say, another week or so, then I would rather wait than risk conversion/retyping/re-proofing of EdH's wiki to the EN wiki. But, if it is likely to be months, then maybe we should get started with EdH's wiki.

I know you won't like this, but you're going to get a semi-vague answer from me. Really, it depends on the flexibility of the platform supported here and the resources I'm working on driving towards it. It'll be longer than weeks--but I don't project it taking longer than a few months.

Well, i don't know much about wiki language. If you go to the site I set up, hit EDIT, then hit the dropdown next to SAVE, you can get to the raw text. If that is standard, we could continue to build over there then just copy|paste here when you are ready. If it isn't portable, then no biggie. I was just spitballing.

It's a bit of a grey zone for me too. To JM's point above, there may be questions of conversion. But even if that ends up being the case, I can put some resources on it to help out (in addition to the community help, wouldn't be tough to crowdsource it with all the awesome people on our board)

[peterfmartin 221]

But even if that ends up being the case, I can put some resources on it to help out (in addition to the community help, wouldn't be tough to crowdsource it with all the awesome people on our board)

You have my sword!

[jefito 5,589]

You have my sword!

Huh -- when someone pulls out a sword around here, I start looking for a place to hide...

[peterfmartin 221]

Jeff, this is the internet. You're supposed to say, "And my bow!" Sigh.

More seriously, Ed, is there a way to add comments (not facts) on the wiki? For example, I could be wrong, but I think the "offline notebooks" of the mobile apps are technically and practically different from the "local notebooks" of the desktop apps, but the wiki currently groups them together as "offline notebooks." First, am I right/wrong about this distinction being relevant? Second, is there a way to pose such questions directly on the wiki? Third, I just created an account, so now I'm signed in (I see that I am), but I see the message "You do not have permission to edit this page." Am I missing a step?

[jefito 5,589]

Oh, I know the reference *very* well.

Oh, OK -- "and my axe"...

(Pippin chimes in "...and my brain cell.").

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

I have some questions:

1. Should we just dive in and start typing, or does someone need to develop some type of structure or organization for the wiki?
   
2. What type of wiki are we creating, KB, User Guide, other?
   
3. Are there any ground rules or guidelines, like, should each entry state which platforms it applies to?
   
4. Are there any good examples of wikis for other products that we might use as a guide/example?
   
5. What happens when there is a disagreement, or when we find something we think is incorrect?
   
6. Does there need to be some type of status for each entry (as in Submitted, Reviewed, Approved, etc)?
   
7. Q #6 begs the question do we need some type of review and approval process?
   

[EdH 1,670]

More seriously, Ed, is there a way to add comments (not facts) on the wiki? For example, I could be wrong, but I think the "offline notebooks" of the mobile apps are technically and practically different from the "local notebooks" of the desktop apps, but the wiki currently groups them together as "offline notebooks." First, am I right/wrong about this distinction being relevant? Second, is there a way to pose such questions directly on the wiki? Third, I just created an account, so now I'm signed in (I see that I am), but I see the message "You do not have permission to edit this page." Am I missing a step?

Not sure. There is a "comment" button, but don't see how it works.

On the editing I messed up. I thought "only allow members of the wiki to edit" meant anyone that had an account with wikispaces. It really means only those I've invited.

So, I just changed it to PUBLIC and checked some comment box. See if you can edit now.

And on offline vs local, you are right - two totally different things. AFAIK, only Windows and Mac have local.

[peterfmartin 221]

Are there any ground rules or guidelines, like, should each entry state which platforms it applies to?

Each entry already does address each client, no?

What happens when there is a disagreement, or when we find something we think is incorrect?

@Ed: This is why I think comments will be very helpful. I hope they can get to work easily.

Does there need to be some type of status for each entry (as in Submitted, Reviewed, Approved, etc)?

Q #6 begs the question do we need some type of review and approval process?

If the community's handling this well (actively, respectfully), I don't think this will be a problem. This is what well-functioning wikis handle well, no?

[EdH 1,670]

I have some questions:

1. Should we just dive in and start typing, or does someone need to develop some type of structure or organization for the wiki?
   
2. What type of wiki are we creating, KB, User Guide, other?
   
3. Are there any ground rules or guidelines, like, should each entry state which platforms it applies to?
   
4. Are there any good examples of wikis for other products that we might use as a guide/example?
   
5. What happens when there is a disagreement, or when we find something we think is incorrect?
   
6. Does there need to be some type of status for each entry (as in Submitted, Reviewed, Approved, etc)?
   
7. Q #6 begs the question do we need some type of review and approval process?
   

Don't know JMichael. I just wanted to know what apps have what features, so I envisioned a massive list of features with a bunch of yes/no for each platform. The features need some sort of logical grouping though, I guess. Maybe not. CTRL-F works for searching the thing. I also felt it was worthwhile to separate keystrokes from features.

Maybe a logical way to split is to look at major sections

• Overall app (syncing, offline, local, spell check, etc)
  
• In-note (formatting, tables, etc)
  
• ???
  

IMHO, it should be in plain english for the novice user, not overly technical. If this grows, last thing I'd want is for someone to go to it looking for an answer, seeing the relevant key words, and being overly confused at the amount of data next to the features and leaving not knowing the answer. As an example, creating note templates. This is a feature baked into the Windows PHone 7 client. EN4 on Windows doesn't support it, but you can create a "model note" and then just copy it. However, that requires so much explanation. Maybe the thing to do there is tie it back to this forum. So, the answer for EN4 is No, but the No could be hyperlinked to a thread here that surely exists that discusses templates in EN4 for Windows - which, by the way, I just did. :-)

So, if this works, let's not try to go overboard, let's have fun with it.

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

Should we establish a new thread to discuss the wiki?

(if so, then a moderator could move the appropriate posts).

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

Are there any ground rules or guidelines, like, should each entry state which platforms it applies to?

Each entry already does address each client, no?

At first I didn't understand your response.

I just realized that I was assuming a much larger scope for EdH's wiki -- I was thinking it was for all of Evernote, not just for identifying platform specific features.

Having said that, even if we start out with the simple table, doesn't it quickly evolve into discussing all features of Evernote?

Obviously I'm confused. Maybe someone can clarify the scope of EdH's wiki.

[EdH 1,670]

JMichael, it can be whatever it grows to be, but I think before we encompass "all of evernote" let's fill in the gaps first. There are good EN manuals, so let's not recreate those.

What is missing? Well, first of all a features comparison by platform, so that is where I started. This will help users that have a PC of some sort and a mobile device of some sort and they will be able to easily understand what does/doesn't work on each one.

What else is missing? Don't know. If you think of something not covered in the manuals, then we can go there. I don't want to duplicate external stuff though, so if "HOw can I integrated GTD with Evernote?" pops into someone's head, I think The Secret Weapon has that covered in spaces, so no need to rehash.

[JMichaelTX 4,117]

What is missing? Well, first of all a features comparison by platform, so that is where I started. This will help users that have a PC of some sort and a mobile device of some sort and they will be able to easily understand what does/doesn't work on each one.

OK, I'm good with that.

So does this mean really just one wiki entry -- a very long table listing all features in all clients?

[EdH 1,670]

One wiki, maybe multiple pages.