Real-Time Editing is out for everybody – Feedback conversation

[AlbertR 525]

1 hour ago, gazumped said:

Under the Help menu

Hmm. This is my Help menu: 

But then I tried STRG-Help (CTRL-Help, a nice trick known from Legacy 😉) and found 

So THX
But "Problemlösung" ("troubleshooting") kept available only until EN has been restartet 🤔.
And: they forgot to translate this submenue 😁 - I think it's not really supported...

[Tcellguy 71]

A few additional things I've found. If you cycle through a bunch of notes, some can be in the "connected" state, while others can be "disconnected". So the connection appears to be on a note by note basis. A disconnected note will not show RTE and will not receive updates from another device. Oddly, changes made to a disconnected note still seem to propagate to the cloud in some cases. 

 

I have to conclude that at this point it is very difficult for me to tell which notes are in communication with the server or not. 

The sync state toggle only works in the main Evernote window and doesn't appear in a note open in its own window, further making it difficult to discern if the note is connected or not. 

My current work around is to use an iOS device and enter some text to see if the note in question responds and then assume it's connected. I have not had RTE problems on any iOS device so far; this appears to be limited to my macOS computers. 

 

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

9 hours ago, AlbertR said:

Sorry (don't laugh): Where can I find this dropdown?

You have to hold Ctrl/Cmd and click Help, I believe. After that, it stays active until ... until it doesn't.

@Tcellguy, thanks for all this. A great find. Do you know what YJS stands for? (Preparing to slap my forehead....)

[Tcellguy 71]

It appears to be a "shared editing framework" from a Google search. I have not seen it change status ever. 

[eric99 978]

1 hour ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

You have to hold Ctrl/Cmd and click Help, I believe. After that, it stays active until ... until it doesn't.

@Tcellguy, thanks for all this. A great find. Do you know what YJS stands for? (Preparing to slap my forehead....)

It is the open source core component underneath RTE : https://yjs.dev/#features

[AlbertR 525]

10 hours ago, eric99 said:

t is the open source core component underneath RTE : https://yjs.dev/#features

Ok, THX. Now it's time to add EN to the list of "Who is using Yjs" 😉

[tom@armisteads.com 0]

As of the new feature for real time sync,  Evernote is not working from one of my environments (Windows 10 at my office using Evernote web client).   I get "WebSocket Error" in the chrome console.   Turning of V10+ in my profile appears to fixe this issue.

 

I'm in an environment where the network is pretty heavily locked down.   We have local SSL certificates on our work systems for all external sites and go through a secure gateway that takes this SSL certificate, decrypts traffic and presents to the actual site using the proper SSL certificates (hope this makes sense).   I'm guessing this is what is causing the websocket issues with real time sync.   Does anyone know of a way around this?   

 

Can I turn on V10+ functionality, and disable real time sync?

[Scott T. 662]

If anybody wants the super-technical deep-dive, YJS is a Conflict-free Replicated Data Type (CRDT), which is the technology we use for real-time editing. We work directly with the creator of YJS and sync regularly with him. 

[gazumped 11,652]

Just now, Scott T. said:

If anybody wants the super-technical deep-dive

I'm good,  thanks!!

[realistdreamer 23]

On 5/12/2023 at 11:27 AM, Scott T. said:

@agsteele is basically right, @realistdreamer. If there is an active RTE session on a note, an update via our API will fail due to the note being locked for writing by the RTE session. The session holds the lock due to the constant real-time updates being sent to the server and applied to the note

. . . 

I will get back once I have more information.

@Scott T. and @agsteele, in talking with others that use IFTTT and Zapier, they are having similar issues as would be expected with services that use the API.   This could be a hefty chunk of the Evernote user base.  Historically, we suffered with note conflicts, but this only happened if edits were simultaneously being made by the user and the API.  Now, the note can just be "open" on any device and the API update fails.  In testing today, we got a "Rate Limit" error on the open note, which made no sense because closed notes were processed fine.

Seems like something worthy of a solution, so thanks for committing to get back to us when there's an update.

[Scott T. 662]

@realistdreamer I was looking at our connection logs today and I see large bursts of traffic coming from various API keys. This seems to indicate that on update failure, third party clients are retrying over and over again, sometimes multiple times a second. API keys have limits on the number of calls per user per key. So if the client does not implement a retry backoff strategy, it can very quickly hit the rate limit. 

Our devs were discussing the issue today and we'll be talking to product as well about what to do next. But in the meantime, it seems that evaluating your retry logic would be a good way to handle the problem for now. 

[AlbertR 525]

9 hours ago, Scott T. said:

But in the meantime, it seems that evaluating your retry logic would be a good way to handle the problem for now. 

You are talking to end-users here - so "evalutate your retry logic" is not really a good advice. IFTTT, Make, Filterize and others are sitting between EN and us and we have nearly no possibilities to affect the retry logic. Example: Make simply deactivates a scenario completely after (too much) fails 😞.

Only users that access the API directly with own apps may check for closed RTE rooms and wait some minutes before re-executing the failed request.

It's a hard job to get all the service providers to fix their interfaces now. I'll keep my fingers crossed...

[gazumped 11,652]

1 hour ago, AlbertR said:

You are talking to end-users here - so "evalutate your retry logic" is not really a good advice

@Scott T. was replying to @realistdreamer who is asking developer questions...

[AlbertR 525]

43 minutes ago, gazumped said:

... who is asking developer questions...

OK, sorry. In that case it's the right answer 😉

I can image that implementing Document Updates in a brand new (and up to now not documented) API will need some time and resources 😞. But as 

12 hours ago, realistdreamer said:

Historically, we suffered with note conflicts, but this only happened if edits were simultaneously being made by the user and the API

and @Scott T. mentioned that EN uses YJS as a Conflict-free Replicated Data Type (CRDT), edits in EN should be possible simultaneously to API changes. An app has to be able to enter an already opened RTE room... 🤔

[AlbertR 525]

18 hours ago, tom@armisteads.com said:

Can I turn on V10+ functionality, and disable real time sync?

You may use Legacy only 😉

Or (sorry @Scott T. for citing myself): Wouldn't it be a solution to offer an option to disable RTE for specific EN accounts? All clients (including EN10 before the switch on all platforms) are able to work without it... And for these accounts, your servers have no additional load with converting notes to and from the formats...

[PinkElephant 8,076]

You can't stop maintaining a server installation. To operate a server you need to constantly update it, for performance as for emerging threats. Freezing "legacy" server software on the server isn't an option, it doesn't work like freezing the clients. Remark: Clientside it doesn't work either, as the loss of functions in the Mac legacy client shows.

Supporting the server database creates a load, both economically and in terms of dev & admin resources. I doubt this track will be followed - but of course, EN management could decide it is worth the effort to invest rather into the past than the future.

[AlbertR 525]

1 hour ago, PinkElephant said:

You can't stop maintaining a server installation. To operate a server you need to constantly update it,

Sure - but where's a problem? Every account has a set of options (properties) that define functionality that is allowed (supported) for that account (i.e. #of clients, upload limit, support of spaces a.s.o.). It's no problem to add a flag "RTE enabled" internally to an account dataset.

First you need a possibility to manage the flag from user's site. They've to extend "personal settings" of your account page (like "Web client V10+ active" - simply a flag within the account dataset).

Any client that see "RTE disabled" opens the RTE room only in well known situations (after an editing window of a note is closed or on request with a sync button), sends changes (only if there are any) and immediately closes it after sync is done. This minimizes time slots with open rooms to an absolute minimum.

There is no need to change anything on server site.

 

[PinkElephant 8,076]

EN would need to support long term 2 different syncing methods. In the clients, on the servers.

If there is a sure way to ruin any company, it is this sort of half baked strategy. It means loading addition cost on top of the core functions, without a significant gain.

Now RTE is out, the only sustainable strategy is to work out the glimpses, and shut down the old code base ASAP.

[Boot17 1,441]

We've started to see some companies start charging $$ for API access -- Twitter and Reddit are some of the bigger players that come to mind. I think there is thinking that the costs to run and support the API for free is too cost prohibitive with questionable return for them. (Perhaps this is a future for Evernote too whereas Bending Spoons looks to make more $$ where they can.)

We've seen mention that the Evernote API docs are out of date and there really hasn't been a lot of development activity there -- tasks aren't available through the API for example.

So with regards to this:

3 hours ago, AlbertR said:

Wouldn't it be a solution to offer an option to disable RTE for specific EN accounts? All clients (including EN10 before the switch on all platforms) are able to work without it...

Seems like (1) that ship has already sailed (meaning it's too late to change/fix now in any case) and (2) it's the opposite direction of where API access is headed in general these days, (3) is more work for Evernote to implement (programming, settings, account management, etc) at a cost to them and not the third party vendor/customer and (4) there hasn't been focus on API access by Evernote for a while.

[AlbertR 525]

[@PinkElephant]
> EN would need to support long term 2 different syncing methods. In the clients, on the servers.

My proposal is not to have different methods: YJS is OK - but should be narrowed down to a short timeframe - as a workaround for users that meet problems with foreign services for some time.

> If there is a sure way to ruin any company, it is this sort of half baked strategy. It means loading addition cost on top of the core functions, without a significant gain.

Sure - but IF there are strong problems on service provider sites, delivering RTE without having seen this, the timing was a fail ("half-baked" 😉)

Now RTE is out, the only sustainable strategy is to work out the glimpses, and shut down the old code base ASAP.

Yep - and ONE strategy might be to find a workaround for the next time.

[@Boot17]
> Seems like (1) ... and (2) .... and (3) ...

... or (4) EN tries to charge $$ for (full) API access to specific accounts 😉 (like Twitter a.o. do meanwhile)
But even if so - it's half-baked to release RTE as a must with a simple update.

[PinkElephant 8,076]

@Boot17 From my observation those services that restrict API access are those where other apps mimick (and often improve) the original service. Practically a different frontend, siphoning off ad income by using the backend of the „master“ service, and the user base.

In the case of EN we are talking about complementary services, not found inside of EN. And EN is not relying on ad income, which neutralizes any monetary impact. I think it was a technical issue. I hope they solve it, because these services add value to the EN core application.

[Boot17 1,441]

5 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

In the case of EN we are talking about complementary services, not found inside of EN. And EN is not relying on ad income, which neutralizes any monetary impact. I think it was a technical issue. I hope they solve it, because these services add value to the EN core application.

Wonder if they've considered ever doing (free) API access but for active subscription accounts only

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

On 5/14/2023 at 4:52 PM, eric99 said:

It is the open source core component underneath RTE : https://yjs.dev/#features

OK, not slapping my forehead--no reason I should have known this! Thanks for the link. Just now I was doing something I rarely do, editing a shared Google doc simultaneously with others. I saw suspiciously familiar avatars at top and flags at edit points, so maybe Google uses YJS also.

[Paul A. 609]

2 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

OK, not slapping my forehead--no reason I should have known this! Thanks for the link. Just now I was doing something I rarely do, editing a shared Google doc simultaneously with others. I saw suspiciously familiar avatars at top and flags at edit points, so maybe Google uses YJS also.

Google Docs predates the creation of YJS. They use a different process called Operational Transformation which works a little differently than Conflict Free Data Resolution.

Here's the last of a very technical and nerdy series of blog posts on Google Drive's tech for anyone interested!

https://drive.googleblog.com/2010/09/whats-different-about-new-google-docs.html

 

 

[PinkElephant 8,076]

All major platforms have developed similar technologies, always targeted at allowing a group of users to collaborate on a document. O365 does it, Apple iWorks does it, and Google as well, among others. The technical details may differ, but these features always go together with a deep cloud integration. The joining of the different user streams happen on the cloud server.

What is interesting about the solution EN employs is that it was developed as a university project in Germany and is open source under a MIT license.

[Tcellguy 71]

Has anyone had their Evernote stay in the connected state after wake from sleep? On three macs so far I have rarely seen Evernote reconnect and essentially have to restart Evernote every time I use it to re-enable syncing. 

[Eduardo E 0]

This feature broke our Evernote Business completely.

I can now see other people are editing a note but......

* Not syncing anymore. I create a note in the local install and I can't see it online and my colleagues can't see them either

* attachemtns lost their names and you can't open several files anymore.

* I even got the message "You dont need to open this note" when I click on an internal link. 

 

Now Evernote knows what I need and don't need to do in my work. Great!

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

1 hour ago, Eduardo E said:

This feature broke our Evernote Business completely.

I can now see other people are editing a note but......

* Not syncing anymore. I create a note in the local install and I can't see it online and my colleagues can't see them either

* attachemtns lost their names and you can't open several files anymore.

* I even got the message "You dont need to open this note" when I click on an internal link. 

 

Now Evernote knows what I need and don't need to do in my work. Great!

We're only other users here, and so can't make too many suggestions or even comments without more data about how many devices and what kinds of devices and OSes are involved. Are you on a paid account, Professional or Teams? If so, you may hopefully get better help by contacting Evernote support.

[gazumped 11,652]

4 hours ago, Tcellguy said:

Has anyone had their Evernote stay in the connected state after wake from sleep?

I'm on Windows,  but my Evernote has been doing that every day for me...

[Tcellguy 71]

OK something may be wrong with my account then. 

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

4 hours ago, Tcellguy said:

OK something may be wrong with my account then. 

Or maybe more likely on your local system. I know less than 00 about Macs, but if it's a matter of Evernote not reconnecting to its servers, could there be a firewall issue of some kind? What are you seeing exactly?

[adrianomena 0]

The problem persists until today 05/17/23. Progress in the notes is not saved and Real-Time Editing is out.

[adrianomena 0]

hace 9 horas, gazumped dijo:

I'm on Windows,  but my Evernote has been doing that every day for me...

Same for me. Also progress in the notes is not saved and Real-Time Editing is out.

[Tcellguy 71]

I think less likely firewall as its occurring on different networks on different machines in different locations. 

Basically when I go to Evernote after the computer as been sleeping for a while, most of the notes say “disconnected” in the status. Nothing I’ve tried will re-establish connected status other than quitting and restarting Evernote, which has a 100% success rate on reconnecting. So I imagine the connection times out after a period of sleep and doesn’t ever send a wake signal again. Oddly some notes seem to always stay connected so it’s a note by note disconnected state. 

I just have to remember to quit/restart every time I use Evernote on Mac now. 

On iOS it works great and much better than the prior versions that were generating conflicts all the time. 

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

27 minutes ago, Tcellguy said:

Basically when I go to Evernote after the computer as been sleeping for a while, most of the notes say “disconnected” in the status. Nothing I’ve tried will re-establish connected status other than quitting and restarting Evernote, which has a 100% success rate on reconnecting. So I imagine the connection times out after a period of sleep and doesn’t ever send a wake signal again. Oddly some notes seem to always stay connected so it’s a note by note disconnected state. 

Odd indeed. Have you tried contacting support (https://help.evernote.com/hc/en-us/requests/new)?

[bwydoogh 71]

12 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

If so, you may hopefully get better help by contacting Evernote support.

I reported this issue with the new sync feature while I was on the preview program in January, but it was ignored and didn't get priority. In May, they released the feature for all users. I cannot understand the reasoning behind such an approach.

[gazumped 11,652]

4 hours ago, bwydoogh said:

I reported this issue with the new sync feature while I was on the preview program in January, but it was ignored

You were presumably one of many users on the preview and Evernote then did not perceive this as a common issue.  Individual reports to Support do get personal feedback - and Evernote get the chance to understand 1) how prevalent this is,  and 2) investigate individual set-ups to find out what causes it - and generate a fix.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

10 hours ago, bwydoogh said:

23 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

If so, you may hopefully get better help by contacting Evernote support.

I reported this issue with the new sync feature while I was on the preview program in January, but it was ignored and didn't get priority. In May, they released the feature for all users. I cannot understand the reasoning behind such an approach.

There have been various issues reported in this long thread; in fact, the note to which I responded with what you quote reported several different problems. Which issue specifically did you catch in the preview program?

[bwydoogh 71]

13 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Which issue specifically did you catch in the preview program?

Issues with make.com (updating notes) and the macos apple shortcuts (appending content to a certain note).

[avaalbertreo 0]

But we still take some advantages from it like

• Increased productivity: When team members share ideas and work on projects together in real-time they produce more—and faster. ...
• Better quality work: Working together in real-time allows for instant and more direct feedback.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

11 hours ago, bwydoogh said:

Issues with make.com (updating notes) and the macos apple shortcuts (appending content to a certain note).

Thanks. I could be wrong, but I don't think any of this has been discussed previously in this thread. AAR, hopefully someone on the thread with experience in these areas can chime in. I will say that there have been discussions, here and elsewhere, of how access to API functions is indeed limited by the new syncing structure and RTE.

[gazumped 11,652]

Make is an automation app formerly known as Integromat,  so presumably makes use (no puns intended) of the API.  I use Backupery, Filterize and Postach.io all of whom use the API and have either been told by Evernote or have discovered themselves that there should be no impediment to their operations.  That said Evernote seems to be having some capacity issues with all the upgrades and conversions going on - if in doubt,  raise it with SUpport.

[AlbertR 525]

I use Make and can confirm that there is the now known problem with the "RTE room already opened":

Within Make you trigger so called "Scenario" by time definition. As a workaround I move execution times to times in which I surely do not work interactively with Evernote.

This is not a valid workaround for Filterize: Here I have defined some filters to be triggered by tags that normally come up during interactive work with Evernote 😞

[RoboRobbie 1]

Have been using Evernote since around 2011 and keen to see the latest updates which I normally get as soon as they are out and essentially use on my phone as it’s easier than using in a desktop 

One of the things I use Evernote for is almost like a calendar of daily events

I am now finding if I look back at a record say of last year and scroll to the bottom to review some of the comments I have entered the new auto save feature thinks I am making changes and logs it as a ‘today’ note. This means if I open a 2022 note it’s totally out of sequence compared to all the other 2022 notes 

I have seen some say go offline but that’s not really full proof and not sure if this will then still put the 2022 note to the top of the list once back online 

 

Is there a way to turn off the auto saving on an iPhone? 
 

kind Regards 

[tom@armisteads.com 0]

1 hour ago, RoboRobbie said:

Have been using Evernote since around 2011 and keen to see the latest updates which I normally get as soon as they are out and essentially use on my phone as it’s easier than using in a desktop 

One of the things I use Evernote for is almost like a calendar of daily events

I am now finding if I look back at a record say of last year and scroll to the bottom to review some of the comments I have entered the new auto save feature thinks I am making changes and logs it as a ‘today’ note. This means if I open a 2022 note it’s totally out of sequence compared to all the other 2022 notes 

I have seen some say go offline but that’s not really full proof and not sure if this will then still put the 2022 note to the top of the list once back online 

 

Is there a way to turn off the auto saving on an iPhone? 
 

kind Regards 

I had this issue a bunch of years ago, sometimes because I wanted to make past edits, sometimes modified by accident.
I started putting the date as the 1st thing in the note titles, and then sort by reverse alphabetic on the title.   I use YYYY-MM-DD as the format;
2023-05-25 Did something cool today ...

 

[RoboRobbie 1]

Hi and thanks for the idea 

it’s just frustrating when it was working fantastic and now it’s not 

if I follow your advice I will have to go back to records in 2020 which is a lot of notes lol 

[eric99 978]

2 hours ago, RoboRobbie said:

Have been using Evernote since around 2011 and keen to see the latest updates which I normally get as soon as they are out and essentially use on my phone as it’s easier than using in a desktop 

One of the things I use Evernote for is almost like a calendar of daily events

I am now finding if I look back at a record say of last year and scroll to the bottom to review some of the comments I have entered the new auto save feature thinks I am making changes and logs it as a ‘today’ note. This means if I open a 2022 note it’s totally out of sequence compared to all the other 2022 notes 

I have seen some say go offline but that’s not really full proof and not sure if this will then still put the 2022 note to the top of the list once back online 

 

Is there a way to turn off the auto saving on an iPhone? 
 

kind Regards 

I also have this on Android, have you issued a bug report yet?

[RoboRobbie 1]

That’s interesting and no not yet

i thought it was just because of the latest IOS updates but maybe it’s not

i am now going to raise 

[agsteele 2,942]

2 hours ago, RoboRobbie said:

there a way to turn off the auto saving on an iPhone

Possibly enabling Edit Protection in Settings/Notes will ensure the note isn't put into Edit mode unless you intentionally want to.

[eric99 978]

11 minutes ago, agsteele said:

Possibly enabling Edit Protection in Settings/Notes will ensure the note isn't put into Edit mode unless you intentionally want to.

No, I tested that already on android, it still changes the update time by just scrolling to the end

[agsteele 2,942]

We'll how strange is that? With Edit Protection enabled I can view a note and tapping the screen has no effect. The note remains protected and no changes occur. Yet the note is marked as updated.

I guess sorting by date created is the only option for @RoboRobbie

[eric99 978]

8 minutes ago, agsteele said:

We'll how strange is that? With Edit Protection enabled I can view a note and tapping the screen has no effect. The note remains protected and no changes occur. Yet the note is marked as updated.

I guess sorting by date created is the only option for @RoboRobbie

yup, definitely a bug, this can't be intended behaviour...

[agsteele 2,942]

Ticket submitted 

[RoboRobbie 1]

Same just now 

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

A discussion in the Android forum:

My guess is it's an unintended and inappropriate consequence of opening an older note and having it converted to the new RTE/sync structure.

[agsteele 2,942]

4 minutes ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

My guess is it's an unintended and inappropriate consequence of opening an older note and having it converted to the new RTE/sync structure.

I don't think so.  It happened to me with a note that had already been 'converted'.  Although it may be an artefact of RTE for some other reason

[Alxa 478]

I checked this on my two Android devices and can confirm. The bug occurs on RTE-created notes as well. Submitted a ticket as well.

[tom@armisteads.com 0]

3 hours ago, RoboRobbie said:

Hi and thanks for the idea 

it’s just frustrating when it was working fantastic and now it’s not 

if I follow your advice I will have to go back to records in 2020 which is a lot of notes lol 

You're welcome, Yes and Yes, definitely a pain to do this.

[PinkElephant 8,076]

We noticed this updating of the change date when simply viewing a note on the iOS client a few days ago. I issued a ticket, it instill running.

So it seems to be a deficiency of the mobile clients, independent from the platform.

[BeEfficient 44]

And I thought with my Android device.... When did I change / edit all these notes and why are all of these on top of the list 🙂 - I hope this will be fixed soon.

[Federico Simionato 1,006]

We’re working to fix the sorting order with no edits issue.

 

I confirm that opening support tickets is the fastest way to make us aware of bugs and issues. 

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

I just experienced a serious benefit of the new RTE/sync structure. I was working away drafting an important document in the Evernote Web client on a Windows computer. Suddenly I was confronted with a Blue Screen of Death. My initial horror turned quickly to hope. While that computer rebooted, I turned around to a laptop on my other desk. There, in the Evernote Windows app, was exactly what I had just written, except for one word still waiting to be deleted (and which I may only have been on the point of deleting on the machine that crashed). I picked up right where I had left off, and finished the document with my thought process intact. An edge case, perhaps (but who among us has not had such things happen?--no Mac gloating @PinkElephant!). Nevertheless, I am profoundly grateful for this tool. Thank you, @Federico Simionato and Evernote team!

[Dave Green 207]

I had a similar benefit when I discovered I had edited a page with two different devices off the net.  The changes were in separate parts of the document, and RTE appears to have applied both changes rather than kick things to the old two notes to reconcile the situation.

[tyoung77 37]

I'm using 10.57.6 on Win 11. Assume it is an RTE version. 

[agsteele 2,942]

10.57.6 supports RTE

[Monofurioso 8]

As a Personal subscriber (since 2008) who does not use Evernote for collaboration, the performance hit of RTE has totally bummed me out w/ Evernote. It's been my #1 app on PC & mobile since forever, but man I didn't need or ask for this.  I get it.  Products and businesses evolve.  I am simply not headed in the same direction.  I've had text only notes take over a minute to load for the 1st time, on a blazing fast PC & Internet connection.  Not acceptable, and RTE is useless for my purposes.  Sorry, not the place for rants, but what a drag to realize it's time for an alternative.

[PinkElephant 8,076]

Your post hits the nail on the head - but at the wrong piece of wood.

RTE is the branding. What’s behind is a new way of syncing content, which avoids duplication and locking of notes. The syncing behind RTE means that they finally stop to always sync the whole note. They now just sync the tiny bit of information that was really changed.

It is a really game changer (no matter if collaborative work is for you or if you are a single user) - they just need to get all nuts and bolts fixed. Currently load balancing seems to be an issue. Plus I expected them to convert the notes on the server. Currently it is done on device, which leads to the wait when a note with the old data structure is opened for the first time. Should only happen once per note, but it’s a PITA.

[tyoung77 37]

2 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Your post hits the nail on the head - but at the wrong piece of wood.

RTE is the branding. What’s behind is a new way of syncing content, which avoids duplication and locking of notes. The syncing behind RTE means that they finally stop to always sync the whole note. They now just sync the tiny bit of information that was really changed.

It is a really game changer (no matter if collaborative work is for you or if you are a single user) - they just need to get all nuts and bolts fixed. Currently load balancing seems to be an issue. Plus I expected them to convert the notes on the server. Currently it is done on device, which leads to the wait when a note with the old data structure is opened for the first time. Should only happen once per note, but it’s a PITA.

I noticed an improvement in note synching especially on my phone once they are converted. I understand why it may take awhile to convert a note on my phone but why is it also slow on my PC with nothing running? I have >8 GB free RAM, Intel 11th gen, Nvidia 3020, SSD, M2 drives etc. Duh something is wrong.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

10 hours ago, Monofurioso said:

Not acceptable, and RTE is useless for my purposes.

Just on this point: I thought I didn't need it either, until the computer I was working on crashed in the middle of editing, and I could literally turn around to my other device and pick up editing right where I had left off while the crashed device rebooted (my post just above).

[hanseric 152]

On 5/5/2023 at 12:25 PM, janndk said:

Tasks not always syncing.

I concur. Same issue. Very odd behaviors, like I click a Task as done in Mac desktop and then it reappears until I click it several times within the note possessing the task.

Or I click a task as done in once device and see it pop up again in anothger (Mac and then iphone, respectively, for example).

[Monofurioso 8]

17 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Your post hits the nail on the head - but at the wrong piece of wood.

RTE is the branding. What’s behind is a new way of syncing content, which avoids duplication and locking of notes. The syncing behind RTE means that they finally stop to always sync the whole note. They now just sync the tiny bit of information that was really changed.

If there's any maxim about technology, it's to use and pay for what is available NOW, not what is promised in the future.  Evernote, as I use it, has had performance plunge off a cliff over the last few years, and the RTE introduction has perched the cliff over a canyon.  There are now options that simply didn't exist a couple of years ago that fill my needs.  Importing my Evernote notebooks into Upnote last night, the performance reminded me of the old Evernote.  So good.  Debating between that or Joplin, since we use a family OneDrive account and I can easily sync via OneDrive.  Most of the features of Evernote are lost on me.  I do simply use it for notes, images and don't even need searchable PDFs.

[Monofurioso 8]

13 hours ago, tyoung77 said:

I noticed an improvement in note synching especially on my phone once they are converted. I understand why it may take awhile to convert a note on my phone but why is it also slow on my PC with nothing running? I have >8 GB free RAM, Intel 11th gen, Nvidia 3020, SSD, M2 drives etc. Duh something is wrong.

I have a Ryzen 7950x, 32GB DDR5 6000, an Nvidia 4090 (not that GPU is relevant) and blazing fast 4tb NVME drives on gigabit Internet.  Evernote is a dog at the moment.

[tyoung77 37]

@PinkElephant Please weigh in on this.

3 hours ago, Monofurioso said:

I have a Ryzen 7950x, 32GB DDR5 6000, an Nvidia 4090 (not that GPU is relevant) and blazing fast 4tb NVME drives on gigabit Internet.  Evernote is a dog at the moment.

I have a powerful PC as well. Lots of free RAM etc. Some notes containing ONLY 8 lines of text take a full minute to convert. Please explain.

[Hishamm Aezzat 0]

Evernote is a great app but it is always full of bugs and mostly issues that they seem not able to fix. I remember upgrading before to premium membership before canceling my membership when I used to add notes from the different devices I'm using with Evernote, but the syncing always went wrong, and resulted in me losing my notes.

Now same issue is back with the new real-time editing, and I keep losing notes everyday since. However, I realized that when I use different text styles together in the same sentence, things get messed up.

I hope that helps, but the more you add features, the more I feel like finding an alternative! Cheers!

[happyatom 2]

My understanding is that legacy notes are updated when they are opened. But, as pointed out, it can take a lot of time for some notes to open. Is there a way to filter and see what notes are not in the new format so that I can then step through them one by one using a macro?

 

[Alxa 478]

Another RTE feedback on tasks: adding a task on EN for Android often ends up with multiple duplicate notes altough even edited on that one and only device. The dups then contain an empty task. Looks like a race condition bug which effects my slower devices... Something that even without RTE is not allowed to happen still happens with RTE. Still no robust user experience 😞

 

[eric99 978]

Yep, stability is still a serious issue, see also https://discussion.evernote.com/forums/topic/146151-not-sure-i-can-trust-en-right-now-more-than-half-a-detailed-work-note-disappeared/#comment-685535

 

 

[RoboRobbie 1]

1 hour ago, Hishamm Aezzat said:

Evernote is a great app but it is always full of bugs and mostly issues that they seem not able to fix. I remember upgrading before to premium membership before canceling my membership when I used to add notes from the different devices I'm using with Evernote, but the syncing always went wrong, and resulted in me losing my notes.

Now same issue is back with the new real-time editing, and I keep losing notes everyday since. However, I realized that when I use different text styles together in the same sentence, things get messed up.

I hope that helps, but the more you add features, the more I feel like finding an alternative! Cheers!

I tend to agree with this comment

It was great a few years back so stable and although some of the new features I find really useful (adding tables and lines) while on the move on my phone I could work around

Thos RTE which seems more focused on the business user side seems to be causing a lot of issues

As a thought why not have different versions for different users rather than having on version where certain options are unlocked?

[agsteele 2,942]

4 minutes ago, RoboRobbie said:

Thos RTE which seems more focused on the business user side seems to be causing a lot of issues

Actually the RTE stuff is really about real time sync and that's a good thing for all users. Clearly the issues need to be fixed but I don't see and don't hear of note duplication now.

Lots of stuff is interdependent. So disabling function may not be a practical way to go. 

[Alxa 478]

2 minutes ago, agsteele said:

... Clearly the issues need to be fixed but I don't see and don't hear of note duplication now.

Note duplication still ongoin - but possibly the old problem with race conditions. The one thing RTE is giving to me as a single user right now is waiting time. Right of today I am waiting 45-60 seconds on every note to display which has not been processed yet. Web/windows/Android no matter what. And it does this on every device again for each note. Quiet the contrary of a productivity tool. Load balancing seems to get even worse.

[gazumped 11,652]

14 minutes ago, Alxa said:

Note duplication still ongoin - but possibly the old problem with race conditions. The one thing RTE is giving to me as a single user right now is waiting time. Right of today I am waiting 45-60 seconds on every note to display which has not been processed yet. Web/windows/Android no matter what. And it does this on every device again for each note. Quiet the contrary of a productivity tool. Load balancing seems to get even worse.

I'm seeing lots of comments (and threads!) about RTE and the need to convert notes from Legacy format to the new RTE format as each one is opened - has anyone checked whether this is a one-time deal?  If a note has been opened, converted and edited once,  does it open faster next time?  Or does the app convert the format back to legacy-style compatibility and 'lose' it's RTE conversion?  I haven't been keeping track of note opening speeds vs re-opening so far,  but I'll try to look out for (and report) any anomalies.

As before - if you're having issues,  please report them - feedback/ twitter for Basic users,  Support tickets for subscribers.  Evernote will be tracking what issues cause most concern,  and having actual reports means they can request more details / activity logs if they need help to figure out the best way to move this forward.  Support is a two-way street: 

it's not enough to say 'this is wrong - fix it!' - it's like getting medical attention for a injury.  You often need to show a medic exactly what's wrong so they know how to fix you!

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

3 hours ago, gazumped said:

I'm seeing lots of comments (and threads!) about RTE and the need to convert notes from Legacy format to the new RTE format as each one is opened - has anyone checked whether this is a one-time deal?  If a note has been opened, converted and edited once,  does it open faster next time?  Or does the app convert the format back to legacy-style compatibility and 'lose' it's RTE conversion?

Evernote explicitly said (@Scott T.'s post here) that the conversion is one-time only, and then it's done.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

13 hours ago, Monofurioso said:

If there's any maxim about technology, it's to use and pay for what is available NOW, not what is promised in the future.  Evernote, as I use it, has had performance plunge off a cliff over the last few years, and the RTE introduction has perched the cliff over a canyon.  There are now options that simply didn't exist a couple of years ago that fill my needs.  Importing my Evernote notebooks into Upnote last night, the performance reminded me of the old Evernote.  So good.  Debating between that or Joplin, since we use a family OneDrive account and I can easily sync via OneDrive.  Most of the features of Evernote are lost on me.  I do simply use it for notes, images and don't even need searchable PDFs.

It definitely sounds like Evernote is more than you need, which is fine. WRT to tech, my maxim has always been to buy for the future, at least with hardware: more RAM, disk space, and processing power than I need now, so I don't have to buy another one in 3 years.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

10 hours ago, tyoung77 said:

@PinkElephant Please weigh in on this.

I have a powerful PC as well. Lots of free RAM etc. Some notes containing ONLY 8 lines of text take a full minute to convert. Please explain.

Sigh. As explained MULTIPLE times (e.g. in this post from Evernote staff), each note needs to be converted to the new syncing structure. This is not necessarily dependent on the length or content of the note, but may relate to what else is going on on the computer (security software running an update?) or on Evernote's servers. A full minute does sound extra-long, though. Are there others that convert faster?

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

6 hours ago, happyatom said:

My understanding is that legacy notes are updated when they are opened. But, as pointed out, it can take a lot of time for some notes to open. Is there a way to filter and see what notes are not in the new format so that I can then step through them one by one using a macro?

 

My guess would be that notes last edited before May 1 would be in the old format, and notes that have been edited or created after May 5 would be in the new format. So searching on "updated" could be used. See the advanced search syntax article: https://help.evernote.com/hc/en-us/articles/208313828, and look in it for "updated:".

[gazumped 11,652]

19 minutes ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

the conversion is one-time only, and then it's done.

Hmmn.  But what happens (as in my case) if I have two devices on v10 and two on Legacy.  My phone is running an old Android version that won't support EN10 and my (win10 64bit 8MB) laptop has a nervous breakdown every time it even thinks about EN10 so it's running 6.25 still. 

@Scott T. did say the RTE app would convert notes back for compatibility when necessary,  but if I create in either Legacy device the notes are (presumably) left in Legacy format;  and what happens if I open an EN10 RTE note opened initially on my desktop but then edited in Legacy. 

Basically I'm asking:  once the note is converted to RTE format - is it permanently maintained that way?  Or can it be 'downgraded' again if edited in legacy?

...And am I getting too deep in  the weeds on this?  (Asking for a friend) 

[Jon/t 1,275]

30 minutes ago, gazumped said:

Hmmn.  But what happens (as in my case) if I have two devices on v10 and two on Legacy.  My phone is running an old Android version that won't support EN10 and my (win10 64bit 8MB) laptop has a nervous breakdown every time it even thinks about EN10 so it's running 6.25 still. 

@Scott T. did say the RTE app would convert notes back for compatibility when necessary,  but if I create in either Legacy device the notes are (presumably) left in Legacy format;  and what happens if I open an EN10 RTE note opened initially on my desktop but then edited in Legacy. 

Basically I'm asking:  once the note is converted to RTE format - is it permanently maintained that way?  Or can it be 'downgraded' again if edited in legacy?

...And am I getting too deep in  the weeds on this?  (Asking for a friend) 

From how I understand it if a note is pre-RTE or not converted to RTE and then its opened in V10 it gets converted to the new format.

If you then open this note up in legacy it gets converted back to the old format... so when opened again in V10 it would convert again!

Bit of a mess but the only way to support both clients.

[Monofurioso 8]

5 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

It definitely sounds like Evernote is more than you need, which is fine. WRT to tech, my maxim has always been to buy for the future, at least with hardware: more RAM, disk space, and processing power than I need now, so I don't have to buy another one in 3 years.

That's a strawman.  Buying powerful hardware with current overkill performance is totally different than unrealized software features promised or even unrealized hardware potential w/ promises to unlock performance with drivers etc.

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

1 hour ago, gazumped said:

Hmmn.  But what happens (as in my case) if I have two devices on v10 and two on Legacy.  My phone is running an old Android version that won't support EN10 and my (win10 64bit 8MB) laptop has a nervous breakdown every time it even thinks about EN10 so it's running 6.25 still. 

@Scott T. did say the RTE app would convert notes back for compatibility when necessary,  but if I create in either Legacy device the notes are (presumably) left in Legacy format;  and what happens if I open an EN10 RTE note opened initially on my desktop but then edited in Legacy. 

Basically I'm asking:  once the note is converted to RTE format - is it permanently maintained that way?  Or can it be 'downgraded' again if edited in legacy?

...And am I getting too deep in  the weeds on this?  (Asking for a friend) 

Tell your friend to ask support ... they've got nothing else to do at present. 

[MHT20202 1]

`updateNote` python API stopped working completely for me after this update. Even when there is no error such as reported here "Attempt updateNote where RTE room has already been open for note" - the call returns without an error and nothing is stored on the note - its content stays as it was previous.

 

This broke a lot of my previous workflows. Please, return ability to edit note through API

[PinkElephant 8,076]

Here are only users - contact support.

[gazumped 11,652]

9 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

Tell your friend to ask support ... they've got nothing else to do at present. 

Yeah they seem real bored... We apologize for the inconvenience, but chat support is currently unavailable due to the high volume of support requests. Please feel free to submit an email ticket or reach out at discussion.evernote.com. Thank you for understanding.

[RedElefant 0]

Hi @Scott T., do you have any updates on this?

 

On 5/12/2023 at 8:27 PM, Scott T. said:

@agsteele is basically right, @realistdreamer. If there is an active RTE session on a note, an update via our API will fail due to the note being locked for writing by the RTE session. The session holds the lock due to the constant real-time updates being sent to the server and applied to the note. Allowing updates from "legacy clients" during an RTE session would be very bad since the server could not properly resolve conflicts between an ENML update and an RTE update.

I'm asking the team about next steps here and suggestions for a fix. I'd presume implementing a retry/backoff style logic would probably work for now, but I'm not the expert on RTE or your specific implementation.

I will get back once I have more information.

 

Thanks :)

[Dave-in-Decatur 3,938]

I just did some testing of syncing from my Android phone, editing the same notes on both the phone and a Windows laptop in the desktop app. Both are on the most current versions of Evernote, I believe (10.57.10 on the laptop, 10.51.1 on the phone). I found that real-time editing was happening--I could see the edits on one device appear almost instantly on the other. But there were neither icons at the top nor differentiated cursors in the notes. Is that because I'm logged in to the same account on both devices? Would I see them if there were really two different people editing? Anyone else experiencing this?

[eric99 978]

40 minutes ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

I just did some testing of syncing from my Android phone, editing the same notes on both the phone and a Windows laptop in the desktop app. Both are on the most current versions of Evernote, I believe (10.57.10 on the laptop, 10.51.1 on the phone). I found that real-time editing was happening--I could see the edits on one device appear almost instantly on the other. But there were neither icons at the top nor differentiated cursors in the notes. Is that because I'm logged in to the same account on both devices? Would I see them if there were really two different people editing? Anyone else experiencing this?

Yep, exactly the same behaviour on my windows and android client. It looks like RTE isn't active, but real-time editing does work.

[tyoung77 37]

Yep real-time editing worked for me too plus I had differentiated cursors and I'm logged into the same account on both devices. EN 10.57.10 on the Win 11 laptop and 10.51.1 on an Android S10.

2 hours ago, Dave-in-Decatur said:

I just did some testing of syncing from my Android phone, editing the same notes on both the phone and a Windows laptop in the desktop app. Both are on the most current versions of Evernote, I believe (10.57.10 on the laptop, 10.51.1 on the phone). I found that real-time editing was happening--I could see the edits on one device appear almost instantly on the other. But there were neither icons at the top nor differentiated cursors in the notes. Is that because I'm logged in to the same account on both devices? Would I see them if there were really two different people editing? Anyone else experiencing this?

 

[Peter Olins 66]

On 5/6/2023 at 3:54 PM, PinkElephant said:

Might it be that because of the new data design of the notes, the whole offline (local) database needs to be downloaded again from the server ?

Hi PE, this approach was useful in the past years when I had a suspected corrupted database/configuration, but I can't get it to work now. I am stuck with a local database of a tiny fraction of my Notes, making offline EN impossible. How do I get a full rebuild/install to work now? Is this a personal glitch or a general "feature" of the latest version?

(I have a full install on a separate Mac, but am hesitant to experiment with a reinstall on this machine for fear of destroying this setup as well!)

THX.

-----------------

Mac OS OS 13.0.1

M1 silicon macbook

EN 10.58.3

 

[Peter Olins 66]

On 5/13/2023 at 3:01 PM, Tcellguy said:

In the troubleshooting dropdown you can select "toggle note status".

The troubleshooting dropdown is now absent in Mac EN 10.58.3

[PinkElephant 8,076]

Then you have a different software than me: Hold down alt/opt, then open the help menu. Troubleshooting is where it has been since v10 launched, at least for me.

[Tcellguy 71]

Is this a beta? My install says "Evernote 10.57.10 is currently the newest version available." and the note status toggle is still active. I hope it's not gone as I'm still experiencing disconnected notes and have to restart Evernote every time I use it.