I need a working solution to locally backup my Evernote data in a non-proprietary format...

[TheMagicWombat 68]

OK, I just actually looked at what Evernote does when it exports your data into HTML format, and needless to say, I was SHOCKED. Evernote's EXPORT feature does NOT export your data--it exports your pictures.

And that is pretty much it.

All text--gone.

All links--gone.

All tags--well, I didn't really expect those to export so that wasn't a surprise.

Basically, in a Notebook of 900 entries, what was exported was 900 folders with 1 picture in each one. NO HTML page--no HTML anything. 

This scares the HELL out of me. My data is NOT safe. And yes, I could theoretically export it into the proprietary .ENEX format, but what the hell is that? How do I use that? Will other programs read that and pull it in properly?

My data way too important to risk losing due to Evernote going belly-up. Is there any way to actually store ALL my data locally in a non-proprietary (i.e. useful) format?

Or... Another program that will pull my current Evernote data into and then I can backup from?

 

[gazumped 11,661]

Hi.  A few minutes research will inform you which Evernote competitors will import data from an ENEX file - the short answer is: most of them. 

I'm confused that you think your data is 'not safe' - it's stored remotely in Evernote's servers,  locally on any Legacy desktop installation,  and can be exported to ENEX which serves both for backing up Evernote in the event of a user accidentally deleting a note,  or moving the whole account to a new (Legacy) installation.  I don't know what's the deal with HTML export,  but the help page on this topic says in part:

If exporting as a single-page HTML file, you will receive a single HTML file with all notes and a single folder that contains all note resources (e.g., attachments, files).

Export notes and notebooks as ENEX or HTML

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

My data is not safe (at least to me) until I have a complete useable backup sitting on my HD that does not require Evernote to open it. 

And, Notion appears to be pulling in my Evernote data directly thus skipping to 1 Notebook at a time limit for exporting. (Although it it taking its sweet time on the notebook with 900+ records...) 

The HTML files was:

1. Choose the 904 record notebook. 

2. Export as individual HTML files

3. 904 Sub-dirs were created with 1 picture in each. A few appear to have a file named "Evernote." (no extension) in them...

... and upon further review, 904 directories DOWN the list shows the HTML pages.

OK, so the HTML export exported the pages AND also created a directory FOR each page where ... graphics and ... some other data was stored in a few of them.

Yeah. HTML export is not going to be a viable backup solution. 

I will look into Notion and others...

TY!

 

[DTLow 5,736]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:02 AM, TheMagicWombat said:

OK, I just actually looked at what Evernote does when it exports your data into HTML format, and needless to say, I was SHOCKED. Evernote's EXPORT feature does NOT export your data--it exports your pictures.

The export/html function creates a file for each note  in html format (non-proprietary)
Attachments are exported to a resources sub-folder
Tags are exported within the note html file content (OS file tags would have been better)

I prefer the export/html export from the Evernote Legacy product   
The v10 export is still a work-in-progress

>>the proprietary .ENEX format, but what the hell is that? How do I use that? Will other programs read that and pull it in properly?

.enex format has become the de facto standard for import to other apps

>>Is there any way to actually store ALL my data locally in a non-proprietary (i.e. useful) format?

I use the export/html function   
The notes are read-able by any browser app

What are your format preferences?   
I would like to see stack/notebook structure preserved   
Also EN tags exported as OS tags

[gazumped 11,661]

17 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

My data is not safe (at least to me) until I have a complete useable backup sitting on my HD that does not require Evernote to open it. 

But surely if you had all your notes and did not require Evernote to see them,  you have no need of Evernote in the first place.  A set of ENEX files representing your existing notebooks is enough re-create your account in Evernote and -with variable efficiency- migrate it elsewhere. You also have the possibility to download the whole thing again from Evernote's server.  I have 55k notes in 300 (or so) notebooks all backed up to ENEX and no worries about it's security.

[PinkElephant 8,094]

HTML export is designed to create an export (primarily of single notes) that is readable with every browser. It creates a set of files everybody can open, with or without an EN app.

This „universal use“ is the focus of this export format - it follows HTML standard, placing all individual elements of a web page (like pictures) into a folder one level below of the lead HTML file.

All the above criticism of this format is IMHO uninformed hot air, directed at spreading bad air, not placing informed questions.

The format used for backups or to import into another app is ENEX.

Who has a „traditional“ attitude of „owning“ ones data means sitting on a hard disk drive should not use ANY cloud based services.

[chronistin 187]

On 8/25/2021 at 6:07 PM, gazumped said:

But surely if you had all your notes and did not require Evernote to see them,  you have no need of Evernote in the first place.  A set of ENEX files representing your existing notebooks is enough re-create your account in Evernote and -with variable efficiency- migrate it elsewhere. You also have the possibility to download the whole thing again from Evernote's server.  I have 55k notes in 300 (or so) notebooks all backed up to ENEX and no worries about it's security.

I disagree. It really gives me peace of mind to have a backup that is human-readable without the need for extra software. Especially since the direction EN is moving to seems to be web only. The html export from legacy works well for me. Not sure how to achive this in the new version.

[gazumped 11,661]

1 hour ago, chronistin said:

I disagree.

Entirely your right and priviledge...

1 hour ago, chronistin said:

The html export from legacy works well for me. Not sure how to achive this in the new version.

Evernote were talking about adding more format options - no timescales mentioned.  I'm still operating with pre-Legacy 6.25 and an ENEX backup - my choice.  

If you don't have too many notebooks,  does right-clicking the notebook (in Notebooks view) give you an HTML option notebook-by-notebook? - remember this is a download,  so if you have a lot of notes it's also going to take a while...

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

49 minutes ago, chronistin said:

I disagree. It really gives me peace of mind to have a backup that is human-readable without the need for extra software. Especially since the direction EN is moving to seems to be web only. The html export from legacy works well for me. Not sure how to achive this in the new version.

55K HTML files is as useful as 55K Chrome bookmarks. Yes, you could theoretically go back in and re-sort, re-tag, and re-associate all 55K webpages, but that is not a solution for most of us.  Collecting the raw data is the first step, but you still go through and do a lot of your own work at making the raw data get assembled into something logical and useful. 

Be totally serious, if Evernote declared Bankruptcy tomorrow, and the server shut down, what would you do with your 55K records? Yes, you can look at them and verify they are there. But use them? Do Boolean searches?

Now, having said that, if there any good indexing programs out there that can read, store, index, and sort a database of HTML files, then that could be a solution. (Frankly, I don't know of any.)

Sadly, the only solution I see for our personal storehouses of information is having 2 different programs that each use the same library of records. One is for working--one is for backing up and using if the first one goes down. To that end, Notion will import 12 different formats, including live linking to the Evernote server and pulling in the records directly from there. (And, it works pretty good--except it WILL puke out when it hits an Evernote record with an empty table. That record will need to be moved elsewhere, or the empty table removed from the record, before it will import further.)

I know Notion has a learning curve, but some of the demos I have seen on drag-and-drop for scheduling events and projects are pretty impressive.

I know Evernote is perfect for some people. But for me, it has become little more than my own personal Google of previously copied data.

 

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

9 minutes ago, gazumped said:

If you don't have too many notebooks,  does right-clicking the notebook (in Notebooks view) give you an HTML option notebook-by-notebook? - remember this is a download,  so if you have a lot of notes it's also going to take a while...

Legacy. .ENEX Format. 940 records for 318 meg. 22 seconds to crunch and store. 

For anything HUGE, you would go make a sandwich and eat it during the process. 

HTML. Exporting as a single HTML file: 4 seconds plus a couple of seconds to complete the storing.  HUGE disadvantage though--it IS a single HTML file that you would have to manually split up. If all you wanted to do was searches for keywords, this would be viable, however. 

HTML Individual HTML pages: 14 seconds. HUGE disadvantage though--as it IS multiple files you would need to use something like the Windows "find text in documents" feature to find an individual record... And that is about as useful as flying to the moon by flapping your arms. 

[chronistin 187]

18 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Be totally serious, if Evernote declared Bankruptcy tomorrow, and the server shut down, what would you do with your 55K records? Yes, you can look at them and verify they are there. But use them? Do Boolean searches?

 

Well, basic search is available with windows explorer. With my notes being titled and tagged thoughtfully, yes, I can still use that data. By far not as comfortable as in EN, but that is the reason why I use EN in the first place. 

[PinkElephant 8,094]

In fact I don’t understand this desire to have a backup „now“. I will try to build 2 Szenarios, to show what I mean:

Szenario 1: I have my backup, done by whatever means. I need to store it, I need to frequently update it, I may need to keep a backup of the backup, remote. Who does not know what this means, look it up at Wikipedia 3-2-1-backup rule.

I place a rough price on this, and I make it cheap, if I look at the accumulated hours needed to keep it up: 100€/$ per year.

Szenario 2: I don’t care about a local backup, trust EN to keep my data safe (they hold several copies, encrypted, spread over a number of data centers run by Google, etc.) and have one local backup that is produced by the local copy of my database (not easily readable), copied with all the other files by my TimeMachine, without any additional effort.

The only szenario that puts my data in any danger of not being accessible (still not lost) is that EN goes belly up. I disregard all the other MadMax-talk as just that: Silly talk. And if that big stone hits the earth, I assure you your EN data will be the last thing you worry about.

So let us stick to EN not being able to operate. I am sure looking at several million of paying users that some corporate vulture would jump on it, buy the company and offer the customers to continue - for an increased price, likely.

Let us say they triple the subscription prices. OK, I pay, take my data and leave. Based on Personal, maybe 100€/$ extra for one subscription with an upped price. 

The difference is: For the backup I start paying today, in money and hours. This effort is spend, year by year, if something happens or not. The other case is an as-if szenario, only relevant IF the company goes belly up.

This is why in fact I don’t really care about this must-have-a-local-backup-thing.

[chronistin 187]

31 minutes ago, gazumped said:

Evernote were talking about adding more format options - no timescales mentioned.  I'm still operating with pre-Legacy 6.25 and an ENEX backup - my choice.  

If you don't have too many notebooks,  does right-clicking the notebook (in Notebooks view) give you an HTML option notebook-by-notebook? - remember this is a download,  so if you have a lot of notes it's also going to take a while...

 

Could work, as most of my notebooks are archives of some sort, and I only use a few on a daily basis. Still, it's significantly more work than it used to be.

[PinkElephant 8,094]

Worst case again - do I get at my data somehow ?

Yes, I do. The local data from v10 on my Mac is organized in one folder per note. In it is one mime file per document, plus the document itself, designated with a long file name, non speaking, without a file type. But independent from this: The Preview app integrated into MacOS opens these documents just fine.

So worst case I don’t need an export, I just need the raw data base that already sits on my local drive, plus a standard Mac app, and can read my stuff. Not the notes, but the attached information. My relevant documents are all „attached information“, be it as pdf of picture file.

This stuff is automatically backupped by my Macs TimeMachine, every hour.

Why I don’t think any local Backup is necessary I have just explained. But there is this local copy, backupped and safely stored.

As long as legacy is around (which I run for a few jobs not handled well by v10 yet), there is one more local data base (as well TM backupped), readable by the legacy client, plus holding all attachments in their original format as files. Even better in terms of 3rd party access, most of it is computer readable and can be searched.

So if I had any problem with space for backups, I would rather start to think about which of the many local EN data hoards I should take out of being backupped, instead of worrying about how to add one more.

[DTLow 5,736]

10 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

Not the notes, but the attached information.

Personally, I think the note content is important; also the note titles   
In addition to the file attachments

>>So worst case I don’t need an export

I will not switch to an application that doesn't support the easy export of my data

[TheMagicWombat 68]

17 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Personally, I think the note content is important; also the note titles   
In addition to the file attachments

>>So worst case I don’t need an export

I will not switch to an application that doesn't support the easy export of my data

Nailed it!

I don't care about bells and whistles AT ALL compared to knowing my data will remain MY data.

[PinkElephant 8,094]

If this nailed it, avoid ANY cloud service. Notion, what a laugh. They don’t have a predefined structure for the user data, so hard to define something similar to ENEX.

Buy a NAS, buy a decent router (with a real firewall & VPN, not the SoHo stuff), set it up. It is not that there are no solutions - just don’t expect it to work out of the box.

But then you „own“ everything, if it makes you happy.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

8 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

If this nailed it, avoid ANY cloud service. Notion, what a laugh. They don’t have a predefined structure for the user data, so hard to define something similar to ENEX.

Buy a NAS, buy a decent router (with a real firewall & VPN, not the SoHo stuff), set it up. It is not that there are no solutions - just don’t expect it to work out of the box.

But then you „own“ everything, if it makes you happy.

Or, in the alternative, you could realize that every time mount one of your strawman attacks (graphics overhead is why records take so long to move, loading screen times are the measure of software speed, you either use Evernote or you will need your own NAS data storage architecture attached to your computer) you simply prove you have no real facts to bring to the discussion.  

You don't like Notion. You don't like the fact Evernote is losing customers to Notion. And to the other software platforms out there that are starting to push Evernote aside while they consume its dinner. 

Why?

Why does that so deeply frighten you?

You are like a Windows phone user who is upset that sales of Windows Phones are in the toilet, and is shouting at people that Windows is far superior to IOS or Android. 

No one is stopping you from using Evernote. You can wallpaper your walls with the word "Evernote". You can do a handfasting with a mannequin with the Evernote Elephant as its face.  No one is stopping you from using Evernote, or even suggesting you are wrong for using it. 

As for us, we *know* Evernote has either failed us, or is in the process of failing us. All your protestations to the contrary are not going to convince anyone to use a product that, frankly, just doesn't cut it. This thread is about the final stage of using Evernote--safely retrieving your data and moving on. 

I know that somehow bothers you, but I just can't figure out why. If you worked for Evernote, I would get it--losing customers means a threat to your livelihood. But you don't work for Evernote. Why do you go into a panic rage whenever someone else decides that Evernote is no longer the software they want to use?

And, please, don't answer that question. Just... think about it. 

[DTLow 5,736]

3 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

This thread is about the final stage of using Evernote--safely retrieving your data and moving on. 

The discussion is titled "I need a working solution to locally backup my Evernote data in a non-proprietary format..."   
and the solution is the Evernote/Export feature; I use it for daily incremental and weekly full backups

[TheMagicWombat 68]

41 minutes ago, DTLow said:

The discussion is titled "I need a working solution to locally backup my Evernote data in a non-proprietary format..."   
and the solution is the Evernote/Export feature; I use it for daily incremental and weekly full backups

Except that solution basically leaves you with:

1. A proprietary format file or

2. Pretty... useless... HTML files. 

If I want to back up a regular database, I am hoping for more than 1,500 un-related documents stored as 1,500 text files on my PC. The only solution I can find is to have a second database program that can pull the database records directly from Evernote. The few I looked over all used the method of linking directly to your Evernote account, and did not use the .ENEX file.  Not saying none will--just saying the few I looked at did not import from a .ENEX file. 

Oh well. I think my solution is to migrate what I *NEED* to a new program and keep both databases current so if one company goes belly up, I still have all my data in the other.  Sort of like mirroring all your data files to a second PC so when the first one dies, you mourn its loss for 6 seconds and then get back to work. 

Inefficient, but at least it is effective.

[DTLow 5,736]

7 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Pretty... useless... HTML files. 

Why do you say "pretty...useless"
Notes in Evernote are in .enml format; which is basically html   
The exported notes look quite similar to the original  

>>have a second database program

This is do-able   
With Evernote Legacy on my Mac, the local SQLite database is a small file    
holding the metadata for the separately stored note files.     
This could be modelled for the "second database" and would include metadata tables for Notes, Notebooks, Tags

[gazumped 11,661]

4 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

and keep both databases current so if one company goes belly up, I still have all my data in the other.

Seems overly pessimistic IMHO - Evernote has a nice, juicy user base of tens of millions of users.  If the company ever did stumble they'd arrange for their preferred successor company to take on board any clients that wanted to continue,  plus the rest of the market would be competing with deals to attract users to their software.

And if you maintain a daily full ENEX backup,  your database is transferable to many other companies with a few minutes work.

Still - your data,  your choice.

[PinkElephant 8,094]

IMHO this discussion has run its course.

Not even popcorn level any longer 😴

[TheMagicWombat 68]

7 hours ago, DTLow said:

Why do you say "pretty...useless"
Notes in Evernote are in .enml format; which is basically html   
The exported notes look quite similar to the original  

>>have a second database program

This is do-able   
With Evernote Legacy on my Mac, the local SQLite database is a small file    
holding the metadata for the separately stored note files.     
This could be modelled for the "second database" and would include metadata tables for Notes, Notebooks, Tags

Because Evernote does not permit nested folders, you are give ONE and ONLY ONE "category" for a record. Evernote forces you to actually classify the qualities of a record via tags, and use those tags as your only effective way to sort out data.

And more importantly, the only effective and efficient way to take the raw records and begin to compile them into useful groupings of information.

The HTML format strips away those tags. In effect, you are left with hundreds--or tens of thousands--of records stored in a random order. Imagine a file cabinet full of pieces of paper, not sorted into any kind of order other than random. That is what Evernote exports to when it exports into an HTML format file. *IF* we had nested folders, then it would be possible to at least store the HTML files into an easily searched directory order without doing a manual review of ALL records every time we wanted to find materials on a particular subject.

Yeah, I know, we will NEVER get nested folders. Evernote insists that we use tags instead to sort our data records. But then, during export to HTML file, those tags are stripped away. What we are left with is a box of 100% unsorted and unclassified documents.

Might as well be a few hundred Chrome bookmarks in one folder in no particular order.

[dbvirago 502]

8 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Oh well. I think my solution is to migrate what I *NEED* to a new program and keep both databases current so if one company goes belly up, I still have all my data in the other.  Sort of like mirroring all your data files to a second PC so when the first one dies, you mourn its loss for 6 seconds and then get back to work. 

Inefficient, but at least it is effective.

I do that periodically, when I want to check in with the competition. Notion (when it works), Nimbus and OneNote all have easy ports from Evernote. So when I stop by, I always to a quick backup.

I also as DTLow and others have said still do periodic backups with Legacy. I do a weekly ENEX backup and a monthly HTML backup.

But before and above all that, mostly I do a Forward Up. Most of my important notes were scanned, copied or otherwise entered via the Import folder. I don't delete those so I have the original files in the original format on my hard drive, both external drives and my cloud backup. Those are my archives and my backups. Evernote makes it easy to find my data, but I'm not staking 12 years of data to any one entity. The majority of the rest of it comes from emails sent to EN. In that case, with a few trivial exceptions I still have the original email. Plus, if the email has an attachment, that gets saved to my import folder. So, I don't need a backup, I already have that done in advance. IMO, putting your only copy of important data in someone else's hands and then complaining that you don't trust them to back them up is silly. 

 

The rest are actual notes and my various backup procedures are more than capable of protecting those. 

[gazumped 11,661]

24 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Evernote forces you to actually classify the qualities of a record via tags, and use those tags as your only effective way to sort out data.

Incorrect.  Evernote doesn't 'force' you to do anything.  Evernote provides a framework within which you can work. If you don't like that framework - which by the way hasn't changed materially in more than a dozen years - your are free to go elsewhere.  If you don't like tags - and I'm not a fan,  after an initial trial - you can use keywords / titles / notebooks / stacks and links to structure your data in whatever way you choose.  I have around 300 notebooks and structured titles which -mostly- works quite well for me.  I do tag - mainly where I have a note that could go into more than one notebook.

I'm not sure that any of the various products in the market offer a non-proprietary way to back up your data outside their server - even the ones that offer local hosting use one file format or another.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

3 hours ago, gazumped said:

Seems overly pessimistic IMHO - Evernote has a nice, juicy user base of tens of millions of users.  If the company ever did stumble they'd arrange for their preferred successor company to take on board any clients that wanted to continue,  plus the rest of the market would be competing with deals to attract users to their software.

And if you maintain a daily full ENEX backup,  your database is transferable to many other companies with a few minutes work.

Still - your data,  your choice.

Tell that to Ruby Tuesday employees. Millions of customers one day. Locked doors the next. Or, remember leviathan Montgomery Wards? Selling like mad at Christmas, and the entire chain closed and being liquidated the day after.  Falcon Transport Company--723 trucks, 585 drivers, many of whom were en route to a delivery destination when the company closed and left the phones unattended. 

Sure, the Federal WARN Act offers employees some protection regarding advance notice of a company closing, but does Evernote have 100 employees to trigger the advanced warning? Irrelevant, because there is no requirement to warn customers. A company could close shop and just pay off the employees to cover the statutory damages to them.

You may wish to Google the way Sams Club closes stores--no warnings given. 

Believe it or not, businesses do NOT broadcast "We are maybe going to be in bankruptcy soon" because creditors become "Cash in advance" while customers (the ones that don't immediately flee) start paying late, hoping you go under before they HAVE to pay the bill. Oh, and employees? They are busy sending out their resumes DURING work hours. Most businesses try to NOT broadcast financial concerns in the hopes that they weather the storm and make it through.  With a publicly traded company, there is some transparency. With Evernote, or any other software/service company that is privately held, it would be stupid of them to broadcast problems up until the point that checks started bouncing. 

And, do you REALLY think that at a company where they are floundering, they are going to devote what few resources they have left to:

1. Making arrangements for your data to be protected by handing you off to the competitor that drove them under?

2. Try and maximize what little value is left in the company so that MAYBE they get 1 more paycheck?

You can call me pessimistic if you like, but in 99 out of 100 times, when a company is in financial trouble, their customers are the absolute LAST thing they care about. 

When Evernote posts their financials, this debate *might be* settled. But we all know that Evernote has never provided their financials. 

Is Evernote going to go belly up tomorrow? Probably not. But do you know what else probably won't happen tomorrow? My death. 

But I still have a will, living will, durable power of attorney for finical matters, and living will for health care directives in place. 

Tell me, is that overly pessimistic of me? 

You would probably say no, it is not. But yet you call me overly pessimistic when I want to assure that *MY* data I have compiled over the decades, remains safe and usable?

No. It is not overly pessimistic. It is acknowledging the possible risk of data loss if I do nothing, verses the time/effort expenditure I must make to minimize those risks. It took me 10 minutes to pull everything into Notion. I can afford those 10 minutes, just like I could afford the 2-3 hours it took to prepare my end-of-life documents. 

We all die. And all companies eventually go bankrupt. (See: Sears, Montgomery Wards, Toys-R-Us. And right now the Federal Bankruptcy courts are facing record numbers of companies going under because of COVID.)

Do tell, do you think the fact that corporate and private America are tightening their belts are:

1. Good for Evernote subscriptions?

2. Irrelevant to Evernote subscriptions?

3. Bad for Evernote subscriptions?

Oh, and then factor in that there are a slew up  new companies that want Evernote's customers and are peeling away Evernote's user database.

Pessimistic?

YMMV, but for my own piece of mind, I have already implemented steps so that even if Evernote goes belly up tonight, I am working with my data tomorrow without a care. 

Oh, and my data is also mirrored to a separate HD on a networked computer. Was it pessimistic of me to set that up as well?

 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

4 minutes ago, gazumped said:

Incorrect.  Evernote doesn't 'force' you to do anything.  Evernote provides a framework within which you can work. If you don't like that framework - which by the way hasn't changed materially in more than a dozen years - your are free to go elsewhere.  If you don't like tags - and I'm not a fan,  after an initial trial - you can use keywords / titles / notebooks / stacks and links to structure your data in whatever way you choose.  I have around 300 notebooks and structured titles which -mostly- works quite well for me.  I do tag - mainly where I have a note that could go into more than one notebook.

I'm not sure that any of the various products in the market offer a non-proprietary way to back up your data outside their server - even the ones that offer local hosting use one file format or another.

Are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?

What you have said is the equivalent of "Word doesn't FORCE you to do anything--you CHOOSE to save your documents!"

IF you use Evernote, you are forced to work within the confines they have coded in. I think we can ALL file that in the Notebook labelled "Duh!" 

So we are back to what I said--Evernote has forced you to use Tags instead of nested folders, and the tags get stripped during the export process.

As for the majority of what you say to establish structure in your records, most of THOSE also get stripped out during the HTML export process.

Except, of course, for Notebook Stacks--your suggestion to somehow use those merits special attention. 

Did you ever find out what happens when you export stacked notebooks? I don't think you have. Here is what you get:

1. You can either export them one at  time--thus breaking the super-limited nesting you had (i.e. you might as well have not had them stacked) OR

2. You can export the ENTIRE stack at once--in which case they ALL get merged together into one big happy HTML file, OR 1 big happy set of 100% unsorted HTML records. 

Yep--If you have a notebook "stack" of 5 Notebooks with 50 records per notebook, and you export the entire stack, you wind up with ONE grouping of ALL 250 records mixed together like a good bowl of oatmeal!

I just exported a "stack" of notebooks. Total of 1,288 records spread across 8 different notebooks. Do you know what I wound up with? 

A single HTML file containing all 1,288 records mixed together.

Then I exported the same "stack" as individual HTML files. Do you know what I got?

1,288 HTML files ALL sitting in the same directory.

Please. Do NOT lecture me on Evernote features you have never tested that I have. 

[gazumped 11,661]

8 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

if Evernote goes belly up tonight, I am working with my data tomorrow without a care. 

You keep on harping on this point,  but I'm in the same position. I have an automatically saved notebook-by-notebook backup in ENEX files which can restore (or move) my 55K note / 30GB database to any provider accepting that import (there are already a few around).  My (legacy) Evernote app wouldn't necessarily stop working anyway - there would be an ongoing sync failure,  but I can still use all the features.  And the 80+ apps that now compete for the Evernote crown (slightly tarnished though it may be) will definitely pull out all the stops to grab as many new customers as they can by offering data transfers.

15 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

at a company where they are floundering

...And you've been promoting this "Evernote are now doomed" vibe all through this thread.  They don't publish figures,  but there are a number of journalists around who keep an ear to the market,  and would know if something bad was in the wind.  Unless you've seen something specific in the press,  all you have is malicious gossip.  Got any links to back up your attitude? 

A lot of the most recent reviews - both journo and user - are making very happy noises about the way v10 is developing...

[gazumped 11,661]

2 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Are you just trying to argue for the sake of arguing?

Are you joking?  Please stick to the subject of your own question rather than just pick a fight with anyone else who dares to comment.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

25 minutes ago, dbvirago said:

But before and above all that, mostly I do a Forward Up. Most of my important notes were scanned, copied or otherwise entered via the Import folder. I don't delete those so I have the original files in the original format on my hard drive, both external drives and my cloud backup. Those are my archives and my backups. Evernote makes it easy to find my data, but I'm not staking 12 years of data to any one entity. The majority of the rest of it comes from emails sent to EN. In that case, with a few trivial exceptions I still have the original email. Plus, if the email has an attachment, that gets saved to my import folder. So, I don't need a backup, I already have that done in advance. IMO, putting your only copy of important data in someone else's hands and then complaining that you don't trust them to back them up is silly. 

Because I work with attitudes and trends, the vast majority of what I have is off the web. I could save all the bookmarks--and god know I do have them as bookmarks already because I have a feeder program to find the stories and it saves them as bookmarks. From there, I clip them into Evernote and then sort as needed.

But, ya. I am where you are--the only way to protect against data loss is have your database sitting in two different database software programs at the same time.  Legacy provides *some* assurance--but can Evernote disable Legacy just by throwing a switch? Does Legacy first poll the Evernote servers to get verification of an active account before it will run?

Those are scary thoughts. 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

14 minutes ago, gazumped said:

...And you've been promoting this "Evernote are now doomed"

You need to stop lying. I have NEVER said Evernote is doomed. That might be what you are reading, but that is on you.

What I have actually said is IF Evernote fails, I want to be ready.

Also, *I* would NEVER have my subject and verb NOT in agreement. 

(At least not on something so basic. Get into areas where the subject sounds plural or singular when it is not, and I might slip. But "Evernote" immediately followed by "are"? Never.)

[TheMagicWombat 68]

7 minutes ago, gazumped said:

Are you joking?  Please stick to the subject of your own question rather than just pick a fight with anyone else who dares to comment.

If you are going to comment, please make it factual. What you said ABOUT Evernote was 100% wrong. 

Here, you must have missed all of this:

What you have said is the equivalent of "Word doesn't FORCE you to do anything--you CHOOSE to save your documents!"

IF you use Evernote, you are forced to work within the confines they have coded in. I think we can ALL file that in the Notebook labelled "Duh!" 

So we are back to what I said--Evernote has forced you to use Tags instead of nested folders, and the tags get stripped during the export process.

As for the majority of what you say to establish structure in your records, most of THOSE also get stripped out during the HTML export process.

Except, of course, for Notebook Stacks--your suggestion to somehow use those merits special attention. 

Did you ever find out what happens when you export stacked notebooks? I don't think you have. Here is what you get:

1. You can either export them one at  time--thus breaking the super-limited nesting you had (i.e. you might as well have not had them stacked) OR

2. You can export the ENTIRE stack at once--in which case they ALL get merged together into one big happy HTML file, OR 1 big happy set of 100% unsorted HTML records. 

Yep--If you have a notebook "stack" of 5 Notebooks with 50 records per notebook, and you export the entire stack, you wind up with ONE grouping of ALL 250 records mixed together like a good bowl of oatmeal!

I just exported a "stack" of notebooks. Total of 1,288 records spread across 8 different notebooks. Do you know what I wound up with? 

A single HTML file containing all 1,288 records mixed together.

Then I exported the same "stack" as individual HTML files. Do you know what I got?

1,288 HTML files ALL sitting in the same directory.

Please. Do NOT lecture me on Evernote features you have never tested that I have. 

 

Now, please, justify  your prior post in light of those FACTS about Evernote. If you can, I will apologize for asking if you were arguing just for the same of arguing. 

[gazumped 11,661]

I don't plan on responding to this thread again - you asked a question,  you've had several answers.  As ever,  use them or don't.  Your choice.

[DTLow 5,736]

3 hours ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Because Evernote does not permit nested folders,

Are we still discussing "locally backup my Evernote data"
Evernote has no support for folders    
For note organization, we get two metadata fields; Notebooks and Tags   

Some users try to emulate folders using the notebook/tag trees in the sidebar
   
>>you are give ONE and ONLY ONE "category" for a record

Multiple tags (categories) are supported

>>The HTML format strips away those tags.

This is not correct.  The tag metadata is exported within the note's html code (OS file tags would have been betterj

[TheMagicWombat 68]

20 minutes ago, DTLow said:

Evernote has no support for folders    
For note organization, we get two metadata fields; Notebooks and Tags

>>The HTML format strips away those tags.

This is not correct.  The tag metadata is exported within the note's html code (OS file tags would have been betterj

I just tested 5 notes with 5 different tags added. (1 per) I don't see those tags anywhere. 

Are they hidden somewhere in the HTML code invisible? I went so far as to open the HTML file in a text editor, and the tag was not buried in there.

I opened the master HTML file in a text editor as well, and no tags.

Are you sure they are included, and if so, where are they hidden?

 

----Edit

Never mind. By default, the export is set to strip them. You must set it to on and THEN export....

So the tags and other info gets  written into the text  of the HTML file itself. Leaving them... pretty useless unless you do a search for that tag as a text string inside of documents themselves....I suppose you could search for hat exact string of the tag, and then re-tag them in bulk whatever software you were using, but live transfer to other software seems more prudent. 

I remember when transferring form one database software program to another one was easy--set up your import tables and pulled in your data.

*sigh*

[DTLow 5,736]

18 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

I just tested 5 notes with 5 different tags added. (1 per) I don't see those tags anywhere.    
Are they hidden somewhere in the HTML code invisible? I went so far as to open the HTML file in a text editor, and the tag was not buried in there.   
I opened the master HTML file in a text editor as well, and no tags.   
Are you sure they are included, and if so, where are they hidden?

Here's the html code for a test note with 5 tags   
The meta name is keywords

>>I remember when transferring form one database software program to another one was easy--set up your import tables and pulled in your data.

Still easy with the Evernote Legacy product

[TheMagicWombat 68]

Ya. I eventually found you had to toggle on those fields. They are set to off by default by the export routine.

And, I agree. Legacy is what to use if you still want to use Evernote and have any concerns about being locked out of your own data. 

[Metrodon 2,184]

What a tremendous waste of oxygen.

[TheMagicWombat 68]

15 minutes ago, Metrodon said:

What a tremendous waste of oxygen.

Don't you know the difference between oxygen and electrons?

Electrons are what are used to transmit digital messages--like this one. 

Oxygen gets used in verbal communication. 

Also, as oxygen, unlike electrons, is always being recycled and is not bound by the Second Law of Thermodynamics (except on incredibly long time scales--orders of magnitude times the age of the universe), unless you are in a very limited situation where oxygen is not plentiful--such as an ICU in New Orleans, or the Space Station, it is impossible to "waste" oxygen. 

Run around and sing at the top of your lungs the Barney song--those oxygen molecules you turn into carbon-dioxide get happily recycled by plants and will be there tomorrow for you to use again.

Sing along with me!

I love you, you love me
We're a happy family
With a great big hug
And a kiss from me to you
Won't you say you love me too?

 

I love you, you love me
We're best friends like friends should be
With a great big hug
And a kiss from me to you
Won't you say you love me too?

[DTLow 5,736]

On 8/25/2021 at 8:02 AM, TheMagicWombat said:

OK, I just actually looked at what Evernote does when it exports your data

Getting back to "a working solution to locally backup my Evernote data in a non-proprietary format..."

You indicated objection with both the html and export options   
What are your preferences for format?

I'm satisfied with the html format,   
but need OS file tags, instead of embedded in the html code (a script can fix this)
I also need notebooks exported as folders containing notes (separate exports per notebook)

Text search is handled by the automatic indexing on my Mac

You mentioned using a database      
Can you provide details on your requirements for this

[TheMagicWombat 68]

I've basically resigned myself to the fact that, like others have posted, the only way to safeguard my work and have it stored in a still-functioning format is to copy it over to another program that will live import the data. If one company dies, you still have your database running with the other.

I am using Notion for that. 

(Also, when I use database, I am referring to a type of software/stored information records--not a specific brand. As much as the True Believers here hate it, Evernote is just a database program, and the records inside are technically the database.)

I do agree that OS tags would be a lot better, but... We don't have those and the odds of getting them are right up there with nested folders. 

[DTLow 5,736]

1 hour ago, TheMagicWombat said:

to safeguard my work ...copy it over to another program

So you dropped the non-proprietary requirement

Personally, I know that I have "safeguard my wotk" with data backups using Evernote's export feature

[TheMagicWombat 68]

11 hours ago, DTLow said:

So you dropped the non-proprietary requirement

1. Sort of no choice. Once you place your data into Evernote, it is locked into that or ANOTHER proprietary format. 

2. Not really. As long as I have it in multiple formats, I can keep moving it as needed.

 

[DTLow 5,736]

45 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Once you place your data into Evernote, it is locked into that or ANOTHER proprietary format. 

You're ignoring data backup with the export/html option; it's not proprietary

[welcro 0]

On 8/25/2021 at 6:07 PM, gazumped said:

But surely if you had all your notes and did not require Evernote to see them,  you have no need of Evernote in the first place.  A set of ENEX files representing your existing notebooks is enough re-create your account in Evernote and -with variable efficiency- migrate it elsewhere. You also have the possibility to download the whole thing again from Evernote's server.  I have 55k notes in 300 (or so) notebooks all backed up to ENEX and no worries about it's security.

And you can do that in one go??,
i hope you found a better way than one notebook at the time, because that's completely hopeless!! 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

4 hours ago, DTLow said:

You're ignoring data backup with the export/html option; it's not proprietary

For my purposes, it is also not very useful. 

Having 900 HTML files is about as much a "database" as having 900 bookmarks in chrome. 

Part of the problem is WHERE I get my data, and WHAT I do with it. I normally find information on the Web, and pull it into my database, adding tags to help sort out WHY it was important to me. Oftentimes, something will have 3-4 tags. When I want all files on "Group X Spending Patterns" I simply go in and look at those tags, winnowing down as need (age group, religious background, college education) and that is my pool of 20-30 records to look at.

With an HTML format, the tags are still in there, but being inside the files themselves, as you say, I need to run some kind of search pattern to find the tags as text inside. Then... Then I need to cross-index them somehow. 

And that is where it all stops. 

The tags while in Evernote are useful. When they are exported from Evernote into HTML files, they become.. I can't figure out how to use them.

So... another database program that will preserve the tags as tags is pretty much the only thing I can think of that will preserve tags in a useful format.

And in trying to resolve the problem, I have come to the conclusion that the options of 1.) .ENEX format, which is designed for the purpose of pulling back into an Evernote (at least compatible) database program, and 2.) HTML files.. Are pretty much all the realistic options for exporting. It is just the nature of the beast because tags are kind of unique to some database programs. You can't make Notepad care about  all the Word embedded codes because, frankly, Notepad doesn't do the same things Word does. Word can import all its data, but it is the job of the OTHER program to interpret those codes. 

[TheMagicWombat 68]

2 minutes ago, welcro said:

And you can do that in one go??,
i hope you found a better way than one notebook at the time, because that's completely hopeless!! 

Well, you could grab a group of nested notebooks, in which case you wind up with ONE final notebook

Otherwise, no. 

[gazumped 11,661]

1 hour ago, welcro said:

And you can do that in one go??

Actually,  yes.  I leave backups to a desktop subscription app called (appropriately) Backupery.  It works on the Legacy app and will step through each notebook and extract all notes to ENEX* in one or more backup locations.  If you didn't want to pay for another service,  it is possible to use Windows or Mac scripting to do the same thing. 

EDIT:  * - or HTML - there are also options for full or partial backups. Backupery don't (yet) have a solution for v10.

[DTLow 5,736]

1 hour ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Part of the problem is WHERE I get my data, and WHAT I do with it.

The problem I'm solving is "a working solution to locally backup my Evernote data in a non-proprietary format..."

You've changed the parameters to backing up the Evernote app

[TheMagicWombat 68]

2 hours ago, DTLow said:

You've changed the parameters to backing up the Evernote app

Right. Because the only non-proprietary format is.. worthless.

[DTLow 5,736]

38 minutes ago, TheMagicWombat said:

Right. Because the only non-proprietary format is.. worthless.

That is incorrect    
This entire discussion is full of your incorrect statements

You a question and it was answered   
Time to close this discussion and move on

[TheMagicWombat 68]

1 hour ago, DTLow said:

That is incorrect    
This entire discussion is full of your incorrect statements

You a question and it was answered   
Time to close this discussion and move on

Worthless to me. In case you were confused, I was asking for MY needs.  

I was not--and this will be a big surprise--not asking for YOUR needs. 

The ONLY solution I have found FOR MY NEEDS is to have the same database running in two different database programs. The HTML files are as almost as worthless as webpage bookmarks. 

Notice the title of the post?

"I need..."

Me. MY needs. Not yours.