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Hate the new Evernote


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@Piotas Since when have the snake oil vendors in the marketing departments ever refrained from blasting humankind with sleazy promises ? 

Hope the devs meanwhile get their act together with EN settings, to give you some rest from bashing the poor guys on this oversight with the national keyboards.

In general: It is pretty standard for software companies to offer a solid first year rebate on conversions and upgrades. EN did this frequently in the past, and will probably continue to do so. The lesson for everybody is you may save 24 bucks if you are willing to wait.

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Thanks for nothing. In one swoop you have completely destroyed my workflow and 7 years worth of an information database. Many moons ago with the idiotic limitation of 250 notebooks I was forced t

You destroyed Evernote with this new version. Why don't you think twice about ***** people's lives? Everything that has changed has changed for the worse. I have been using it since 2012. The worst ve

Why why why would you change a perfectly good user interface and totally complicate it? This new version does not make it easier to create a note or to change the notebook for the note. It makes it ha

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1 hour ago, PinkElephant said:

@QFieldBoden

What sort of iMac, and on which MacOS ? I have no problem running both legacy & v10.4.7 in parallel on my Mac (MBP 15“, BigSur).

High Sierra, 10.13.6 27" 2.8Ghz Intel i5, 16Gb RAM. Not a spanking new machine but Evernote should run on it and they haven't said it won't, everything else does!  Sometimes it loads, sometimes it doesn't but v10 always slow even when it does load. It was absolutely fine before the update. Legacy seems Ok, it's this new junk that's the problem.

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Running on Fusion Drive or on SSD ? Fusion Drive was already a problem with legacy clients.

Apple officially supports the last 3 operating systems. So since BigSur is out, HighSierra is out as well, but out of being supported. Usually this does not effect apps right away, but it may have an effect on newly released apps.

If I were you, I would probably run legacy plus issue a support ticket about v10. If EN wants to quit legacy one day, they need to give directions for Macs running older MacOS versions as well.

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2 hours ago, QFieldBoden said:

With quite a large number of notes, a bit under 10,000, I've found using Evernote on iOS to be so slow and useless that I've completely abandoned even trying now and I have removed it from my iPhone and iPad completely.

I am using iOS EN v10 on both my iPhone 12 and iPad Pro 10.5 (2017). I am in EN multiple times per day on one or the other device and I find the performance very tolerable. In fact, I even noticed a bit of an improvement with the recent 10.3 release. I have over 2,000 Notes in my app and use the search feature quite often, with reasonable performance.

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2 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

In general: It is pretty standard for software companies to offer a solid first year rebate on conversions and upgrades. EN did this frequently in the past, and will probably continue to do so. The lesson for everybody is you may save 24 bucks if you are willing to wait.

I am not claiming my money back because I use Evernote Legacy, till it syncs, I see no reason to ask for compensation/reimboursment. I really liked "old" Evernote app and service since I started using it in 2009 on PocketPC (Windows Mobile 5 and 6) and PC.

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7 hours ago, tavor said:

The plugin development pace is great (and has features EN does not - outline view, one-click backlink search and creation, note tabs (I believe EN Mac has tabs, but EN Windows never got this)), so I'm using Joplin for new notes while still having a foot in EN for my old notes and new web clips where Joplin's clipper doesn't get me the desired clip - EN's clipper is probably still best in class.

Joplin team is so fast, it takes hours to patch an issue, not weeks (like in case of Evernote); I use Joplin for new NOTES as well, but for HTML dumps (like grabbing current state of web page - my job consist of IT sales so I have to grab a lot of public tender pages etc) I still use Evernote, because I can dump there more MBs compared to Joplin.

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3 hours ago, luvmyc6 said:

I am using iOS EN v10 on both my iPhone 12 and iPad Pro 10.5 (2017). I am in EN multiple times per day on one or the other device and I find the performance very tolerable. In fact, I even noticed a bit of an improvement with the recent 10.3 release. I have over 2,000 Notes in my app and use the search feature quite often, with reasonable performance.

I'm glad it's working out for you. Maybe having 20% of the notes and newer hardware Makes a difference. However when performance on Legacy = Ok and performance on v10 = ***** when on the same machine and the same database there is something badly wrong, as I think many of the comments illustrate!

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3 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

If I were you, I would probably run legacy plus issue a support ticket about v10. If EN wants to quit legacy one day, they need to give directions for Macs running older MacOS versions as well.

I think TBH my course of action is pretty much decided. I'm now off iOS and just on my iMac. I'm going to just observe for maybe 3 months and see if Evernote get their act together and see if they come up something which satisfies me and many other users, something that at least delivers the same performance as what they replaced.

If things aren't moving in a far better direction I'm going to be reluctantly concluding that Evernote has had it's day and is in terminal decline and take the pain and maybe more to something like Notion which at least seems to be on the way up rather than on the way down. Notion is also half the price and their free version is also probably adequate for many users.

Evernote, in all honesty, has for some time now been on the way down, weighed down by bloatware and really going nowhere fast.

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What happened?  This was my favorite app for years, now it sucks really really bad!! I relied on it as an extension of my brain.  Now the thing has had a stroke!  It's unusable.  It's slow, crashes and the layout is confusing.  This kills me!

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OK, I’ve been patient. I’ve waited 3 months for some bug fixes to come along and... nothing. Since October my MacOS Evernote, my second brain, the core of my business where all my records are kept, no longer works. 

I click on a notebook... nothing in it. I click on a note... nothing in it. Click on inbox... nothing in it. It repeatedly tells me to “reload,” as though I’m using a flaky web browser and requires I reboot my Mac to access... THE INBOX!!! Or my client records!!!

No inbox? In Evernote?! You had one job.

I use Evernote for two reasons: reliability and good search. I require both. If you’re not going to fix it in the next month I simply can’t stay. I don’t want to leave, but you’re messing with my livelihood.

Please recognize what your customers are paying for and get back to delivering it.

best,

Mark

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On 10/20/2020 at 8:26 PM, gazumped said:

Hi.  You don't mention whether this is Mac, Windows or mobile,  but have you tried stepping back to the last public version?  v10 is pretty much a skeleton so doesn't display much,  but if your data still exists within Evernote (or you have a usable backup) you may find the Legacy versions are the best place to stay for a while... 

Thank you, @gazumped! This is a huge help! I was trying to tag several hundred notes, and the restriction of doing that just 50 notes at a time was excruciating. Also, I was trying to rename notes, and it was taking over a second for each new name to appear. And finally, the renaming was based on looking at the PDF, and each PDF was slow to show up. I've now moved back to the Legacy version on Mac, and these aggravations have disappeared.

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It's fascinating watching Evernote's response and lack thereof, to this v10 slow motion train wreck. We have seen many paying subscribers complaining about v10, including many who are threatening to leave. The total lack of response on this forum or on reddit from EN (even if it's to encourage Premium subs to roll back to Legacy) is interesting. 

It suggests to me that the argument I made earlier (linked below) that EN (and their VC backers) don't really care about paying subs (right now) because their focus is on growing the userbase (because that's what will drive valuation) is essentially correct. EN's behavior certainly seems to comport with my thesis, does it not? Would love to hear from those who truly believe that EN's focus is on Premium subs - what is your evidence for this belief?

 

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2 minutes ago, tavor said:

Would love to hear from those who truly believe that EN's focus is on Premium subs

I'd be surprised if anyone believes Evernote has a focus at the moment... I did a little side research via ProductHunt: https://www.producthunt.com/discussions/do-you-use-notetaking-apps-which-one-would-you-suggest-and-why and Evernote still seems to be at the top of the list even for the most recent comments. 

The changes may have been traumatic for those of us who use the app as an essential part of our workflow - and didn't think to sidestep the update when it first arrived - but for the general run of user it seems OK.  

Evernote made some mistakes (which is like saying 'oops' after you hit the big red button) in launching as they did and how they did -  It may have seemed clear to them that they were launching a much cut-down version (which makes sense if you're piloting a brand new architecture) but it wasn't clear to anyone else.

They may have thought that the new wrapper process would make it easy to update and upgrade the app (they may have listened to the sales pitch!) but now find that with thousands of users screaming at the gates wanting everything fixed,  it's a tad harder to concentrate and deliver - but engaging with us is just going to take up someone's time when they could be coding;  so -again probably rightly- they're concentrating on working on what they got and avoiding all distractions. 

I wouldn't bet against some internal management panic too in that if they don't get this fixed investors are going to get worried,  at a time when there's plenty else to get worried about...

It would definitely have been nice if Evernote had done a 'yep - it was an error - go back to Legacy for a while as we fix this' type of thing... but then their lawyers probably said "and what about all those claims for refunds that will follow..."  which is probably what killed that thought.

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@tavor

Not sure what EN's focus is at the moment other than remediating a dumbed down product in a standardized programming language.  Hard to fathom that this, as you put it, slow motion train wreck could be anywhere in the neighborhood of what they expected to achieve.  They've managed to miss the mark in quality and content, no mean feat.  Add lack of communications and you have the trifecta!

Still hoping they can fix this thing.  Meanwhile 6.25.1 is running sweet 

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46 minutes ago, tavor said:

their focus is on growing the userbase (because that's what will drive valuation)

I'm still confused on the "valuation"
In terms of "growing the userbase", this is already accomplished (over 200 million users)

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12 minutes ago, DTLow said:

I'm still confused on the "valuation"
In terms of "growing the userbase", this is already accomplished (over 200 million users)

200 million users who cost them money, and perhaps a couple million paying users. Huge difference.

As for valuation, I agree with @tavor that valuation is undoubtedly an extremely important metric for the senior leadership and the board. Evernote is owned by investors, many of whom have been waiting a long time to get their money back. The only way they will do that is if they can either IPO or sell to a large software company for a princely sum.

Evernote's valuation is what determines whether they get to sell (or IPO, which still involves selling stock), and the faster that valuation is achieved the faster the faster they will sell/IPO and the faster investors will get to recover their investments.

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1 hour ago, tavor said:

It's fascinating watching Evernote's response and lack thereof, to this v10 slow motion train wreck. We have seen many paying subscribers complaining about v10, including many who are threatening to leave. The total lack of response on this forum or on reddit from EN (even if it's to encourage Premium subs to roll back to Legacy) is interesting. 

It suggests to me that the argument I made earlier (linked below) that EN (and their VC backers) don't really care about paying subs (right now) because their focus is on growing the userbase (because that's what will drive valuation) is essentially correct. EN's behavior certainly seems to comport with my thesis, does it not? Would love to hear from those who truly believe that EN's focus is on Premium subs - what is your evidence for this belief?

 

I think you're right that valuation is very important, and I believe that they may have planned for and expected some short-term churn on Premium subscribers with the transition to a brand new software platform in v10. Where we (perhaps?) differ is that I believe Premium subscribers are extremely important, as valuation of freemium software like Evernote is based on paying subscribers and the conversion rate from free to paid.

So, while they may have been willing to briefly tolerate some declining metrics related to paid subscribers towards the end of 2020 and perhaps very early 2021, the company is bound to be under big pressure to grow their paid subscriber base this year.

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Does EN disclose how many paid users it has got?

Typically the conversion ratio is very low, usually fewer than 5 in every 100. So if EN has 200 million total users, paid users probably 2 million roughly. It is still a very large number though.

But I'd still say, EN does not have any unique selling point as such. Behemoths like Google. Microsoft, Apple are offering notes for free and Onenote is a highly accomplished product. If you don't need to "edit" files frequently in mobile, Dropbox itself is a good proposition as you can "view" most common file types in Dropbox without any other apps.

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11 minutes ago, Vidalia said:

But I'd still say, EN does not have any unique selling point as such.

I think this more the immediate focus than "valuation"
The first step is to simplify/unify the delivery mechanism i.e the client code base.
After this is completed, we'll see the implementation of features (unique selling point)

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Ignoring the obvious usability changes for a moment, I submit that the macos version is unusable. After some period of time, if you switch to another note, no note contents can subsequently be loaded. You can select them, but you cannot view, nevermind modify, any note content.

While restarting the application does resolve this issue, it is a recurring problem, and should not be necessary. I've stopped using the desktop application at this point, and only use the mobile version, which seems to be much more stable.

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1 hour ago, gazumped said:

It would definitely have been nice if Evernote had done a 'yep - it was an error - go back to Legacy for a while as we fix this' type of thing... but then their lawyers probably said "and what about all those claims for refunds that will follow..."  which is probably what killed that thought.

Perhaps. But ignoring the furor and not soothing concerns is going to leave Premium subs who are unhappy with v10 feeling quite salty - remember ~1/12 of them come up for renewal each month - are these people going to be motivated to pay for one of the most expensive note apps? From the posts I'm seeing here and at reddit (where the discontent far exceeds anything I've seen in the years I've been on this forum), I'd bet they are seeing the largest attrition of Premium subs they have ever seen.

1 hour ago, CalS said:

@tavor

Not sure what EN's focus is at the moment other than remediating a dumbed down product in a standardized programming language.  Hard to fathom that this, as you put it, slow motion train wreck could be anywhere in the neighborhood of what they expected to achieve.  They've managed to miss the mark in quality and content, no mean feat.  Add lack of communications and you have the trifecta!

Right, that lack of comms is going to give people whose renewals come up, some pause before forking over another $70.

1 hour ago, DTLow said:

I'm still confused on the "valuation"
In terms of "growing the userbase", this is already accomplished (over 200 million users)

I think that 200mm is cumulative signups. I'd be surprised if active weekly users is over 50mm or active daily users is over 20mm. Premium subs will be a very small fraction of active daily users.

53 minutes ago, Paul A. said:

I think you're right that valuation is very important, and I believe that they may have planned for and expected some short-term churn on Premium subscribers with the transition to a brand new software platform in v10. Where we (perhaps?) differ is that I believe Premium subscribers are extremely important, as valuation of freemium software like Evernote is based on paying subscribers and the conversion rate from free to paid.

So, while they may have been willing to briefly tolerate some declining metrics related to paid subscribers towards the end of 2020 and perhaps very early 2021, the company is bound to be under big pressure to grow their paid subscriber base this year.

I think where we differ is on timing. I don't think the focus will be on paying subs this year. In the future, for sure, but not this year. Again, I'm basing this on the behavior I'm seeing from EN.

51 minutes ago, Vidalia said:

Does EN disclose how many paid users it has got?

Typically the conversion ratio is very low, usually fewer than 5 in every 100. So if EN has 200 million total users, paid users probably 2 million roughly. It is still a very large number though.

But I'd still say, EN does not have any unique selling point as such. Behemoths like Google. Microsoft, Apple are offering notes for free and Onenote is a highly accomplished product. If you don't need to "edit" files frequently in mobile, Dropbox itself is a good proposition as you can "view" most common file types in Dropbox without any other apps.

I think active daily users is less than 20mm, and paying users is maybe 1mm at best. Just a guess.

Completely agree that EN has a market problem and where it is positioned in that market. @Wanderling Rebornposted a survey and he and I had a discussion around that starting with the following post:

 

The most interesting thing about that survey is that only 20% of the people who responded (presumably all active EN users) were daily users (and I would guess that most of the Premium subscribers are daily users). When you have a daily use product that only 20% of your users use daily, you have a problem - you may need different products - one to really cater to your daily use userbase and another (or multiple others) to cater to your less frequent users. One product cannot possibly maximize value for both portions of your userbase, and by sticking to one product, it may be more difficult to differentiate yourself from the numerous competitors (a problem EN didn't have several years ago when they essentially defined the space), especially the free options you note from the OS giants (MS OneNote, Apple Notes, Google Keep) - I agree with you that for people for whom the "second brain" idea isn't really important, any of these free alternatives will probably be fine and even Dropbox may suffice just to have some notes and documents synced across devices, as you note.

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1 hour ago, DTLow said:

I think this more the immediate focus than "valuation"
The first step is to simplify/unify the delivery mechanism i.e the client code base.
After this is completed, we'll see the implementation of features (unique selling point)

Totally agree, and how ShaneD's actual post shows, EN starts to announce delivering the first really new feature - with additional content only for paying users, to deliver unique selling points (the former - may be even by EN itselves - leaked "home"-dashboard:

see: 

 

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16 hours ago, malex583 said:

I use Evernote for two reasons: reliability and good search. I require both. If you’re not going to fix it in the next month I simply can’t stay. I don’t want to leave, but you’re messing with my livelihood.

Please recognize what your customers are paying for and get back to delivering it.

I feel your pain and I couldn't agree more.

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33 minutes ago, HeBoIz said:

Totally agree, and how ShaneD's actual post shows, EN starts to announce delivering the first really new feature - with additional content only for paying users, to deliver unique selling points (the former - may be even by EN itselves - leaked "home"-dashboard:

The dashboard itself and ONE pinned note on that dashboard are new.  The rest exist in the old screen UI or saved searches or shortcuts.  All of which require no more than one or two clicks if one is still using the classic stuff.

It may help newbies I suppose who haven't developed their own workflows or someone who wants to see all the actual bits at the same time for some reason.  It seems to be a jump off page wherein you can't edit anything on the page other than maybe(?) the pinned note.

Waiting for 10.7 now.

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2 minutes ago, CalS said:

It may help newbies I suppose who haven't developed their own workflows or someone who wants to see all the actual bits at the same time for some reason

But isn‘t this what we were talking about here the last hours as potential EN strategy? Just how to deliver enough values  and „unique selling points“ for new users and non power users to change from basic to premium?

This surely is no big thing or game changer for power users and no reason to upgrade to v10, but it is still a step forward in development.

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59 minutes ago, HeBoIz said:

But isn‘t this what we were talking about here the last hours as potential EN strategy? Just how to deliver enough values  and „unique selling points“ for new users and non power users to change from basic to premium?

This surely is no big thing or game changer for power users and no reason to upgrade to v10, but it is still a step forward in development.

I know I am getting a bit caustic and I apologize for that.  My only excuse is that EN has/had such a great product and they just can't seem to get out of their own way.  I'm invested in EN and want to see them succeed for personal reasons if nothing else.  In the worst way.  Do not want to have to convert to something else.

IMO the V10 product in its current form is not worth $70/year.  I'm not sure how much a dashboard adjusts those economics.  Particularly when these forums are replete with premium user complaints of not only function loss but also of fails in performance and data integrity.  I can't even test the web version, it goes paws up after five minutes. One just can't ignore the cornerstones.

Sure the dashboard is something new, but a game changer?  Then again I view EN as my information repository not a note taking app.  Nothing like it on the market for saving and finding stuff.  So that's my bias which comes forth when I see the fru fru.  🤷‍♂️

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42 minutes ago, CalS said:

I know I am getting a bit caustic and I apologize for that.

No one can tell, honest 😄

Putting my cynical hat on, EN is not trying to please premium users.  They already have our money.  Some have left.  I doubt it has been a flood ... yet.  Their hope is to attract enough new paying members to compensate for those that left and grow the business.  This would have been a true disaster if they didn’t keep legacy around.  A key decision for them will be when they decide to remove legacy and at what state v10 will be at that time.  Many premium members are waiting and watching.

I think a key miss by Evernote was maybe not realizing that anyone willing to spend ~$70 a year for a note app is very likely using it to the fullest with specialized workflows.  Releasing v10 when they did likely affected every premium user in some way, and many significantly.

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8 minutes ago, s2sailor said:

I think a key miss by Evernote was maybe not realizing that anyone willing to spend ~$70 a year for a note app is very likely using it to the fullest with specialized workflows.  Releasing v10 when they did likely affected every premium user in some way, and many significantly.

Bingo!  I think the same way.  I don't believe they understood all the ways folks were leveraging the product to get that $70 worth of value.  I've seen some inklings of that realization in the bits of communication so far.  Spun for sure, but there.  Again, here's hoping they right the ship. 

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39 minutes ago, s2sailor said:

I think a key miss by Evernote was maybe not realizing that anyone willing to spend ~$70 a year for a note app is very likely using it to the fullest with specialized workflows.  Releasing v10 when they did likely affected every premium user in some way, and many significantly.

Exactly. Even the forum members who routinely defend EN at every turn are using . . . wait for . . . Legacy.

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Just reading the conversations about "valuation" above.

Perhaps EN and its investors are not really interested in the number of paying customers, but more interested in the customers' data and metadata.

I have trusted EN with a lot of private information over the last 5-6 years. I have shared data with others. They have never promised real data security (and many/most cloud providers don't.)

So I'm wondering if this isn't just another way to get valuation from free/cheap customers - especially if it involves being able to capitalize on the data they store.

Tell me I'm being paranoid. Could never happen. Not like google or facebuck.

 

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20 minutes ago, ripwit said:

Perhaps EN and its investors are not really interested in the number of paying customers, but more interested in the customers' data and metadata.

I've seen no evidence that Evernote is interested in mining our data.

>>Tell me I'm being paranoid. Could never happen.

I don't think it's possible for Evernote to change existing TOS for this without notification and allowing account closure

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23 minutes ago, ripwit said:

Just reading the conversations about "valuation" above.

Perhaps EN and its investors are not really interested in the number of paying customers, but more interested in the customers' data and metadata.

I have trusted EN with a lot of private information over the last 5-6 years. I have shared data with others. They have never promised real data security (and many/most cloud providers don't.)

So I'm wondering if this isn't just another way to get valuation from free/cheap customers - especially if it involves being able to capitalize on the data they store.

Tell me I'm being paranoid. Could never happen. Not like google or facebuck.

 

All that note data would certainly be valuable to potential acquirers who are active data miners, such as Alphabet/Google.

I use the Local Notebooks feature (pre-v10) keep private notes private.

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7 hours ago, ripwit said:

Perhaps EN and its investors are not really interested in the number of paying customers, but more interested in the customers' data and metadata.

 

very interesting point - I hadn't thought about that. let's assume for a second you are right. some of ENs recent decisions seem to make a lot more sense in that light:

- removing local (i.e. non synced) notebooks as they cannot be data mined,

- not addressing paying customers concerns as their revenue might not matter as much strategically,

also it would be a way for EN to monetize those non paying free customers. might even be a mixed form where you won't get data mined as a premium customer and ad supported for free. they certainly would loose a lot of premium customers, but that might be offset by the ad revenue from 10 or 20 or 50 times as many ad supported customers. very interesting thought indeed.

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9 hours ago, tavor said:

Exactly. Even the forum members who routinely defend EN at every turn are using . . . wait for . . . Legacy.

<Sigh> Pointing out the facts of life is not 'defending',  it's just being practical. 

And I'm no defender of the current ongoing slow-motion car-crash of a release - I've been actively suggesting that folks go back to Legacy when they hit issues.  I'm still using the last public releases for Android and Windows with updating firmly turned OFF for the time being.

Watching all this breast-beating about the new release being toxic is like watching a kid lie in 2 inches of water and panic about drowning.  Just get up guys - you'll be fine...a little damp maybe,  but generally fine...

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10 hours ago, ripwit said:

Perhaps EN and its investors are not really interested in the number of paying customers, but more interested in the customers' data and metadata.

Remember the golden rule, if you are not paying for the service, you are the product. 😀

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15 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

There are some fixes announced with v10.6 for Windows and Mac.

Maybe you give it a try, and feedback if your problems were solved by this release. Would be good if such a PITA could finally be solved by updating.

Here's one example (windows)
One of my tags has 591 notes.
The new version displays 17 (and each extra attempt displays a different number of notes but never the right one 😞)

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Unfortunately, after the 10.5.7 popup debacle, lack of drag and drop, CS closing issue tickets just because they answered it (NOT because it was resolved), I'm moving on after 11+ years of using EN. Most everything that, for me, made EN easy to use and useful in my life, has been changed to some undescribed, uncommunicated vision with seeming little input from users. I can't even check out 10.6 because of the lack of features that remain in legacy while I finish my transition to a new tool. However, reading the release notes, I have to wonder who's brainstorm is was to introduce a new home page without being a major version number. Used to be one could track changes by version, but apparently EN is setting a new paradigm. Small, incremental change forcing large workflow changes on a user who may be ill prepared to realize said changes. I tried to be a beta tester, but when I couldn't even create a new note I had to quit. I couldn't understand how the betas got out of the company in the first place. I was being asked to perform pre-alpha testing and that made actually using the program come to a halt (but not for long). But, then being out of the beta group, there wasn't a way to see what was going on or coming or help guide EN into some good decisions for customers. I'm sure EN isn't worried about losing one customer, it's much more work for me, but I'm convinced it will be worth it as EN has become something that is no longer useful to me. YMMV.

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13 hours ago, tavor said:

All that note data would certainly be valuable to potential acquirers who are active data miners, such as Alphabet/Google.

Google doesn't monetize its paid G Suite services, so I wouldn't be too concerned about a Google acquisition. I think it makes a certain amount of sense as a potential Google acquisition, actually. The new v10 is written primarily in Javascript, one of Google's preferred programming languages, and it's cross-platform with a feature-complete web version. The back-end infrastructure is also already running on the Google Cloud. 🤔

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5 hours ago, gazumped said:

Watching all this breast-beating about the new release being toxic is like watching a kid lie in 2 inches of water and panic about drowning.  Just get up guys - you'll be fine...a little damp maybe,  but generally fine...

Seems that is your assessment anytime people justifiably complain about a new EN release breaking workflows.

To each his own. I can empathize with people paying $70 per year and having an inferior, buggy release dropped in their laps and having their workflows disrupted. And as you well know, there is no rolling back on iOS and EN is not providing a link to a prior version on Android, so going back to Legacy and waiting it out is simply not possible for everyone.

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14 hours ago, ripwit said:

So I'm wondering if this isn't just another way to get valuation from free/cheap customers - especially if it involves being able to capitalize on the data they store.

 

to me, this is the most logical conclusion of their actions to date.  If I consider the possibility of e.g. a Google acquisition, their actions makes sense.

from these forums alone, they've clearly alienated long term highest-revenue users.  their silence makes it clear they don't care, indicating these users are not important to their go forward strategy

their data is in google cloud.  they attempted to evolve their TOS in 2016 in a way that would allow them to mine our data without having opted in.  shedding premium users would actually reduce that objection and make such a change easier.

they've long resisted encrypting Anything.

AND they've removed support for local notebooks.

to me, this suggests there has to be a bigger monetization play in the works.  and to me, the most logical assets are eyeballs (revenue or not) and data (ads)

I've been meaning to pull my more sensitive notebooks out of Evernote for a while, and this whole process has given me urgency.  I'm still using Legacy for the time being, but I'm watching these conversations closely.

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10 minutes ago, ek12 said:

 

to me, this is the most logical conclusion of their actions to date.  If I consider the possibility of e.g. a Google acquisition, their actions makes sense.

from these forums alone, they've clearly alienated long term highest-revenue users.  their silence makes it clear they don't care, indicating these users are not important to their go forward strategy

their data is in google cloud.  they attempted to evolve their TOS in 2016 in a way that would allow them to mine our data without having opted in.  shedding premium users would actually reduce that objection and make such a change easier.

they've long resisted encrypting Anything.

AND they've removed support for local notebooks.

to me, this suggests there has to be a bigger monetization play in the works.  and to me, the most logical assets are eyeballs (revenue or not) and data (ads)

I've been meaning to pull my more sensitive notebooks out of Evernote for a while, and this whole process has given me urgency.  I'm still using Legacy for the time being, but I'm watching these conversations closely.

if we follow this train of thought you will likely not know about a transaction until it is official, which might or might not be too late for saving your data from google (you could argue it is already on theirs servers, but I don't think google can actually access it at the moment). having migrated away to Devonthink in october due to the V10 mess I guess this is the point I start actively deleting my EN data...

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3 minutes ago, tavor said:

Seems that is your assessment anytime people justifiably complain about a new EN release breaking workflows.

"Justifiably?"  When (except for iOS) you can install a complete fix in 20 minutes or less?

5 minutes ago, tavor said:

EN is not providing a link to a prior version on Android,

That's more due to the way that App Stores Work,  but since Android is less secure than Apple,  sideloads are a possibility.  See https://www.apkmirror.com/apk/evernote-corporation/evernote/evernote-8-13-3-release/ -or-
https://evernote.en.uptodown.com/android/download/2259282 for the historic APKs

6 minutes ago, ek12 said:

their silence makes it clear they don't care, indicating these users are not important to their go forward strategy

"Their silence" has been a corporate policy for the past 12 years.  It doesn't make anything clear.

- And I don't see any buyouts as very likely;  Most (all?) of the main players already have their own skin in the game.  Google has Keep forinstance.  If they bought the Big Elephant they'd have to scrap one or the other,  and most of the current paying customers - who chose Evernote over the competition in the first place - would likely jump ship leaving the new owner with a lot of Basic accounts and very little actual revenue.

Evernote's current T&C's (link above somewhere) are pretty clear that no sharing can take place - "your data is your data".  As others have already said: you'd have to have an opportunity to opt in or out of some scheme if they want to change it,  so you'd get a few weeks notice at least.

But again - rather than stress about this theoretical possibility,  why don't we just get on with business and leave Evernote desperately fixing theirs,  and see what happens in a few weeks?

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5 minutes ago, toao said:

you will likely not know about a transaction until it is official, which might or might not be too late for saving your data from google

So we're accepting this is a real deal now?  While T&C's protect a company from most things,  playing fast and loose with your data during a current subscription is not one of them.  Last time I had a provider 'suggest' another company was ready to look after my account because they were going out of business,  I had to opt IN to that deal a couple of months before it happened. 

If you have any concerns about your Evernote data,  just keep a regular backup (possible through the Legacy options,  the last public releases and third party apps like Backupery and CloudHQ).  You will almost certainly have time to get a final copy before you pull the plug if that's what you want to do,  but you're covered if not.

And if anything happens you don't like - go find your friendly local Data Protection body;  those fine people have the power to impose some eye-watering fines if they want to.

In any event all of this is just locker-room chatter - and don't forget that Evernote's hungry young competitors will be relishing this fuss and palaver,  and possibly adding a bit of fuel to the fire from time to time. 

The more uncertain Evernote's users are,  the more likely they are to move away to someone more deserving of their subscriptions.  Us paying users are quite a valuable resource. 

Which is why it's so dumb of Evernote to leave everyone hanging!

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42 minutes ago, gazumped said:

"Justifiably?"  When (except for iOS) you can install a complete fix in 20 minutes or less?

That's more due to the way that App Stores Work,  but since Android is less secure than Apple,  sideloads are a possibility.  See https://www.apkmirror.com/apk/evernote-corporation/evernote/evernote-8-13-3-release/ -or-
https://evernote.en.uptodown.com/android/download/2259282 for the historic APKs

And knowing how mobile app stores work, Evernote shouldn't have released v10 before it was ready (or before making it very clear to users what they were in for), knowing full well that people who rely heavily on the mobile app could experience significant workflow disruptions.

I know all about the android apk's because I've been providing those links in this forum. But neither you or I can say that an Evernote apk from a third party website if free of malicious software. The only party who can guarantee that is Evernote, and they aren't providing users with a v6 apk, nor are they explaining why they aren't doing so. Taking a risk on a third party app site for a note taking app is not acceptable for some users.

But you are, of course, free to dismiss user complaints as non-justified, while you sit back in the comfort of v6.

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29 minutes ago, gazumped said:

So we're accepting this is a real deal now?  While T&C's protect a company from most things,  playing fast and loose with your data during a current subscription is not one of them.  Last time I had a provider 'suggest' another company was ready to look after my account because they were going out of business,  I had to opt IN to that deal a couple of months before it happened. 

If you have any concerns about your Evernote data,  just keep a regular backup (possible through the Legacy options,  the last public releases and third party apps like Backupery and CloudHQ).  You will almost certainly have time to get a final copy before you pull the plug if that's what you want to do,  but you're covered if not.

And if anything happens you don't like - go find your friendly local Data Protection body;  those fine people have the power to impose some eye-watering fines if they want to.

In any event all of this is just locker-room chatter - and don't forget that Evernote's hungry young competitors will be relishing this fuss and palaver,  and possibly adding a bit of fuel to the fire from time to time. 

The more uncertain Evernote's users are,  the more likely they are to move away to someone more deserving of their subscriptions.  Us paying users are quite a valuable resource. 

Which is why it's so dumb of Evernote to leave everyone hanging!

am all fine with what you are saying, it's simply that I do not trust EN any more after what I have experienced over the last few months - both product as well as communications wise....I do have backups I could re-instate in the very unlikely case I would want to come back, but I do not want to leave my data with EN even on the pure speculation of them considering data mining...wild guess? probably, but would you have guessed in august or september what was about to come?

am very happy with Devonthink with all my use cases and will very likely stay there for the coming years...never would have thought that could happen just a few months ago considering my enthusiasm for EN, but so be it....

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5 hours ago, toao said:

if we follow this train of thought you will likely not know about a transaction until it is official, which might or might not be too late for saving your data from google

This is unnecessarily and unhelpfully alarmist, IMHO. History shows that there is always advance notice (often months and months of notice) before a major change such as that. And as I said earlier in the thread, Google does not monetize in any way its G Suite products, of which Evernote would almost certainly become part of were it to be acquired by Google.

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With Google I am not that sure about GSuite privacy. I run a Pi-Hole on my network, so I see what queries are going out in the background when I call an URL.

Recently somebody send me a GDrive link to download some content. I pasted it to my browser (not Chrome ...) and opened it. Then I took a look at the Pi-holes log (which I do sometimes just to learn about tracking habits). Oooops - there were with that very time stamp several communication attempts with Google analytics servers (all stopped, of course).

The GDrive link opened fine and let me download the content, so this was not an access / security feature. It was good old „G“ snooping on who was calling a Google address, trying to learn more about that IP, device and in the end the user.

All of that is hoarded, for years backwards, just in case it could serve in the future to tag this user even more precisely with whatever marketeers think they can send to enlighten my day.

Conclusion: They track every contact - you can trust that they do. This is the only trust I put into these companies.

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I've been reading this thread with a growing sense of foreboding, which has in turn created a growing rage, and finally, resignation (literally).

I've been using EN since 2008 on Mac, Windows and iOS - but mainly on a Mac. It's never been been feature-level across all platforms but has been a joy to use - until now. I have a very slick (IMHO) GTD workflow that works for me. It involves using tags and only really works because I can see a lot of information on a small screen.

The release of 10 has blown that out of the water because of a UI designed for 5yr-olds and loss of features. I've only just noticed because I got a new Mac and was landed with 10.5.7. I've downloaded the legacy app for now, but the clock is ticking.

Some years ago I moved all my non-GTD notes to OneNote because of some other inane design decision (I got fed up with the awful text editor), but EN has been a great GTD app. However, now I've taken the decision to migrate before my plus subscription expires next month and have cancelled the auto-renewal.

During the downgrade, I was asked to give my reasons. They were simple "I've lost too much productivity developing work-arounds for the poor design decisions and implentation in V 10. Basically, don't trust you with my data anymore"

I've started to review alternatives. All I need is a very good GTD app. Even if it means I have to-key, I won't loose as much as I have with V 10. I've looked at DevonThink before. It's good, but Mac-only which is no good. I'm about to look at Joplin.

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Why do people assume that migrating to a non-EN platform requires all notes migrated to new platform at once?

Can it not be just take 10% of notes which are most useful and then pull other notes as and when required?

If you have not accessed any note in last 1 year may be those are not important OR you can just leave it in EN and refer back when necessary?

I personally use 3 different apps. Over a period I have moved my stuff out of EN. I still have few hundred notes in EN but it won't be end the world if I lose them.

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19 minutes ago, Vidalia said:

Why do people assume that migrating to a non-EN platform requires all notes migrated to new platform at once?

Can it not be just take 10% of notes which are most useful and then pull other notes as and when required?

Agreed. In fact, for longtime EN users with lots of notes, your approach makes a lot more sense. Why move thousands of notes to a new platform all at once when you can move a few dozen notes (e.g., the notes you're currently using) and create new notes on whatever app you're test driving? If the test drive proves disappointing, it's very easy to move that handful of notes back to EN, and you can rinse and repeat for the next app you want to try. If the test drive is great, you can move the rest of your notes over at your leisure. 

I get that some people are upset and want to leave EN, but moving everything at once to a new note app that you haven't used as a daily driver for some time is a risky move and could compound the stress created by v10 disruptions to workflows. 

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I wonder if 200 million is the number of active users, or total number of accounts. I know that in the past 12 years, I’ve created at least 4 separate accounts that I can recall - tried once, forgot about it, then a year later created a new account.. then created another with work email... then created a new one when I ran into issues and wanted to start from scratch...

 I suspect that the actual number of active users is more like half of that. 

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I've been using the new EN for a few months and it so SLOW and unresponsive I hate it. I've had to many other things on my plate to figure it you. Yesterday, I finally came to the forums and looked into it, and realized it's not me, or my computer, its the app. That's a relief. I downloaded and installed Evernote Legacy and it is positively peppy compared to the new EN. 

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18 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Recently somebody send me a GDrive link to download some content. I pasted it to my browser (not Chrome ...) and opened it. Then I took a look at the Pi-holes log (which I do sometimes just to learn about tracking habits). Oooops - there were with that very time stamp several communication attempts with Google analytics servers (all stopped, of course).

That's really interesting. Was it a consumer GDrive link, by chance? I'm guessing that an enterprise (G Suite) Google Drive link would not have the same communication attempts. Or if it does, there would be an innocuous reason for them, such as temporary security-related logs that get deleted quickly and don't get used for advertising.

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6 hours ago, garethhowell said:

Basically, don't trust you with my data anymore

Not disagreeing. One hard lesson (boy I'm old) 45+ years in computers taught me is trust no one with your data. The list of computers that simply disappeared overnight is endless.

I remember this infamous finger to users from Circus Ponies "If you need a copy of NoteBook 4.0 (3.x and earlier don’t run on OS X El Capitan) or need technical support, you can try sending an e-mail to support@circusponies.com. There’s a chance someone will respond but no guarantees."

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On 1/13/2021 at 4:31 PM, CalS said:

Bingo!  I think the same way.  I don't believe they understood all the ways folks were leveraging the product to get that $70 worth of value.  I've seen some inklings of that realization in the bits of communication so far.  Spun for sure, but there.  Again, here's hoping they right the ship. 

I use EN primarily as a method of record keeping. My wife has her own business and I keep all receipts in Evernote. Electronic receipts can be emailed directly into EN. I have a rather complex system of tags set up, and it works well in EN. I can change the creation date to match the date on a receipt (unfortunately, this became a bit harder with V10).

So far, unlike others, I've had no major problem with V10. I've looked at other software, and anything with the same capability costs as much or more. So in comparison, $70 seems reasonable.

I've looked at Joplin, which is open source and free, but it feel really clunky compared to EN

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On 1/12/2021 at 5:04 PM, Piotas said:

Joplin team is so fast, it takes hours to patch an issue, not weeks (like in case of Evernote); I use Joplin for new NOTES as well, but for HTML dumps (like grabbing current state of web page - my job consist of IT sales so I have to grab a lot of public tender pages etc) I still use Evernote, because I can dump there more MBs compared to Joplin.

We are moving to Joplin as we speak.

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1 hour ago, jlady said:

I use EN primarily as a method of record keeping. My wife has her own business and I keep all receipts in Evernote. Electronic receipts can be emailed directly into EN. I have a rather complex system of tags set up, and it works well in EN. I can change the creation date to match the date on a receipt (unfortunately, this became a bit harder with V10).

So far, unlike others, I've had no major problem with V10. I've looked at other software, and anything with the same capability costs as much or more. So in comparison, $70 seems reasonable.

I've looked at Joplin, which is open source and free, but it feel really clunky compared to EN

Use cases do drive how we view the new product.  Glad the new works well for you.  There are too many features missing of which I have become accustomed.  Kind of like going from a $70 steakhouse dinner to a $70 fast food burger for me.  Value proposition not nearly as compelling.  Hence I sit on 6.25.1 and observe the proceedings for now.

I do hope they bring back the bits of feature that folks are requesting, maybe clamoring for, if that isn't too melodramatic.

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On 1/2/2021 at 4:19 PM, TaskClone said:

Can't really disagree with that.  If you're going to punch me in the gut, tell me first.  I won't want to hear it, but it's better than the alternative.  

I'm on the developer side and I guarantee you every time Evernote or OneNote sneeze, we catch a cold.  Right now, syncing doesn't work the same with their new apps.  It sucks and impacts our bottom line.

 

Just wanted to update that while it was a painful period for us, Evernote's engineering team did fix the sync/webhook issue created with the new apps.  My company and clients are grateful it's over notwithstanding it would have better if it never occurred. 

I continue to believe in 18 months, biting the bullet will be judged the best decision for Evernote.  I wished they had done a much much better job of communicating and not feeling they need to be so secretive about roadmap.  If they told us more about roadmap I don't think it would impact their competitive situation one bit.

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25 minutes ago, TaskClone said:

I wished they had done a much much better job of communicating and not feeling they need to be so secretive about roadmap.  If they told us more about roadmap I don't think it would impact their competitive situation one bit.

Exactly. Almost everyone gets that unifying the codebase was a pill that had to be swallowed. And Evernote power users are a very patient bunch. Waiting until they had v10 closer to feature parity with v6 and had most of the bugs ironed out, even if it took another 6 months would have been fine. Instead, by foisting this beta onto an unsuspecting public in the form of a general release and breaking many workflows, they have destroyed perhaps the most important aspect in the relationship between note app user and note app developer - trust.

And for what? Any attempt to protect their competitive position has backfired as they will have much larger number of Premium subscriber losses than if they had simply waited another 6 months to release v10. And they'll be forced to support v6 for at least 6 months following the v10 release, so they gained nothing, and lost much.

The v10 release is worthy of a business school case study. An unforced error that the competition is taking great advantage of.

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12 hours ago, TaskClone said:

Evernote is already a frequent case study.  I'm sure this whole episode will spawn many more.

My note here is totally irrelevant,  but I got an intriguing update email from another company yesterday which is a bit of a model in emotional intelligence...  It's from the developers of JV16,  a Windows 'cleanup' utility.  Note the subtle sales message and the discounts at the end...

Quote

 

I'm very happy to announce the release of jv16 PowerTools - Next Generation - Build 1024 BETA.

You can download it here: <link removed>

This is a BETA version of our upcoming, next generation jv16 PowerTools.  We are releasing this to ask for your feedback. What do you like, what do you dislike?  Do you notice any bugs? What would you change to make it a better program?

Almost exactly one year ago we released the then new jv16 PowerTools with a dramatically changed user interface and more reduced set of features. You, our beloved users, did not entirely love that.

We got a lot of negative feedback about these decisions and based on this, we had to take a long hard look on what we'd done.

First, we've rebuilt the entire user interface. Not only that, we changed the plans of what we want to do with jv16 PowerTools.

In short, we will take the product more towards how it all started, as a set of easy to use but advanced tools, focusing on doing things Windows cannot do.

Making Windows better, basically.

I must be entirely honest with you - the last year was very difficult for us. Not only the things happening around the world and the economy, but the fact that we spent a long time building a new product and at the end, you did not like it. Not only was that hard mentally, it was also difficult for our bottom line.

In fact, I received the numbers from accounting today and last year our sales did not even cover our costs. And the only person I can blame for this is myself. I made the decisions and they were not correct. I can see that now.

But now it is time to look forward.

We spent a lot of time on developing this next generation of jv16 PowerTools. Not only the new user interface, but every single feature is now improved and refined. In terms of accuracy, safety and, of course, performance.

That being said, please remember this is still a BETA level software and it will have bugs. You should only use this version in a system that you can restore in case something goes wrong.

There are two major features that did not yet make it to this first BETA version.

We have a brand new Internet Optimizer and brand new Automatic Updates features. Both rebuilt from scratch to address the issues you have been reporting. These two features are not yet included in this version. They are 99% done and will be included to the next released BETA version.

I hope you will give this version a try and let us know what you think. Because, you are the reason why we are doing this.

And if you like where we are going with jv16 PowerTools, please consider buying a license. After the release of this new version, we will probably need to increase the prices of any new licenses to try to cover our costs and buying now would secure you the lower price point. Thank you.

Get a Lifetime License for just $30 USD 

(Please note our in-store 30% discount does not apply to this offer)

All my best, Jouni.

 

Evernote,  please note!

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1 hour ago, gazumped said:

My note here is totally irrelevant,  but I got an intriguing update email from another company yesterday which is a bit of a model in emotional intelligence...  It's from the developers of JV16,  a Windows 'cleanup' utility.  Note the subtle sales message and the discounts at the end...

Evernote,  please note!

Unbelieveable!!
I envy JV16 users 😳

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2 hours ago, gazumped said:

My note here is totally irrelevant,  but I got an intriguing update email from another company yesterday which is a bit of a model in emotional intelligence...  It's from the developers of JV16,  a Windows 'cleanup' utility.  Note the subtle sales message and the discounts at the end...

This is a well done mea culpa.  I would be interested to know how well they communicated the changes they took before they rolled out the poorly received version.  Acknowledging they screwed up is one thing.  Far better to accurately and honestly communicate changes before they occur, especially if they may negatively impact their customers.

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It is Jan 16 and I am on version 10.6.9 on a Mac. It continues to get worse. Evernote. has turned into complete garbage. It is so buggy that I am looking to move into other alternatives. Evernote has let us all down, their interface gets worse, performance is horrible, and they do not seem to give a *****. 

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Very nice to read a post so full of emotion, and so devoid of any information. But maybe you don’t have anything of value to share anyhow ?

From my observation EN is clawing back to offer working v10 clients. The v10 client is not yet back to feature parity, which impacts some use cases more than others. Everybody who needs to run EN with a complete feature set can install legacy on Mac and Windows.

Running legacy and new client side by side lets determine if the own use case is already supported. By this any user can make an informed decision when to switch. And you get 2 clients for the price of one 🙃

Who urgently needs a discontinued feature like local notebooks has to find an alternative. But maybe this is only needed for this part of the total EN usage, not for the whole account. As long as legacy is available there is time enough to search and test.

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3 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

Very nice to read a post so full of emotion, and so devoid of any information. But maybe you don’t have anything of value to share anyhow ?

From my observation EN is clawing back to offer working v10 clients.

Since you're a big fan of information perhaps you'd like to share with the rest of the class your evidence that EN is indeed "clawing back to offer working v10 clients." Because a lot of people keep using words like "slow", "buggy", and the like. When someone complains they find 10.6.9 unusable on a Mac that is in fact useful information. It might not be at the level of detail to help developers fix problems or to warn users which particular features to avoid, but it's not the ****ing job of paying customers to help a company debug software that should never have been released in such a state.

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7 hours ago, GrumpySwede said:

It is Jan 16 and I am on version 10.6.9 on a Mac. It continues to get worse. Evernote. has turned into complete garbage. It is so buggy that I am looking to move into other alternatives. Evernote has let us all down, their interface gets worse, performance is horrible, and they do not seem to give a *****. 

 

1 hour ago, rts said:

Since you're a big fan of information perhaps you'd like to share with the rest of the class your evidence that EN is indeed "clawing back to offer working v10 clients." Because a lot of people keep using words like "slow", "buggy", and the like. When someone complains they find 10.6.9 unusable on a Mac that is in fact useful information. It might not be at the level of detail to help developers fix problems or to warn users which particular features to avoid, but it's not the ****ing job of paying customers to help a company debug software that should never have been released in such a state.

I'm curious, do you both find 10.6.9 to be worse than earlier versions? If so, I hope you will consider reaching out to support (if you're subscribers) to note the problem so that they can fix it.

For my part, progress is a little uneven but each new version seems to be a little better than the last. 

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10 hours ago, Paul A. said:

For my part, progress is a little uneven but each new version seems to be a little better than the last. 

Agreed. My main concern is that the EN 10 updates seem to have focused more on adding features than on basic stability and operability. I only hope that adding more features is not confounding the efforts to achieve stability.

(For me, one of the priceless features retained in EN 10+ is Version History, since I use EN as my main work environment. EN is my second brain.)

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Ah, this discussion has brought back such nostalgic memories for me!

Here is what I wrote to Evernote in 2012:

Quote

I'm just writing to let you know how much me and my wife both hate the new version 5. We have been using Evernote for quite some time, and much of our life is organized around the tool, so the fact that it is now crashing all the time, has become much more confusing, and is generally working terribly is a cause of great stress for us. There is no need to write us back on this. Please just do your best to get things working well again and to reverse the worst of the user interface decisions.

With a follow-up in 2013:

Quote

This is just to say that the situation is still terrible. Version 5 is no longer crashing, but the user interface is still so much worse than it was before. For instance, to title a note, one must now be at the top of that note. So it is not possible to, for instance, visualise some important information in the note (such as the date of a bill) while typing the title, unless by luck that information just happens to be right at the top (often it is not). It makes me so sad that this tool that I use every day and that is key to my life has become so cumbersome to use. No need for you to send a reply -- I just wanted to let you know.

So, while, in 2021, I prefer to use the Legacy version 7 for Mac rather than the latest version 10, what I really really want is a Legacy version 4, which, IMHO, was before all the bad design decisions started being made.

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23 hours ago, GrumpySwede said:

It is Jan 16 and I am on version 10.6.9 on a Mac. It continues to get worse. Evernote. has turned into complete garbage. It is so buggy that I am looking to move into other alternatives. Evernote has let us all down, their interface gets worse, performance is horrible, and they do not seem to give a *****. 

I’m not having any technical issues using Mac 11.1 and EN V 10.6.9. (IMac 16GB)

What are you encountering?

thanks!

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