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Hate the new Evernote


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16 hours ago, NorcalScott said:

Interesting take - so you are saying that Evernote will benefit from some of their most passionate paying customers leaving the platform to one of the many other competing solutions, and that there is somehow a large number of “new”paying customers who will come in and ensure profitability?  Who do you see as these new customers?

I run a company that interfaces with Evernote.  I can attest that people leave and return all the time.  I have the data logs to prove it not to mention dozens of conversations with clients.  

Whether Evernote will benefit from losing the most aggrieved customers is a total unknown.  However, it is common for companies to not pursue a strategic opportunity to grow for fear of alienating a small, but vocal group of long-term customers.  That tension exists all the time.

Evernote is smart enough to know that as long as it's viewed as "note-taking" software, it's future is limited.  They have fought against that label for a long time and I would guess that most of their best customers don't think of it as just note-taking software. I don't.

That said, they may want to move in a direction that clarifies that (hopefully not with Work Chat), but that new direction may bother some.  

For the record, I don't think that's the major issue here.  I think the major issue here is some of the compromises needed to create a unified base across platforms given the limitations of the tools available.  Combine that with the limitations of beta testing such widely used software and POOR communications. 

 

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Thanks for nothing. In one swoop you have completely destroyed my workflow and 7 years worth of an information database. Many moons ago with the idiotic limitation of 250 notebooks I was forced t

You destroyed Evernote with this new version. Why don't you think twice about ***** people's lives? Everything that has changed has changed for the worse. I have been using it since 2012. The worst ve

Clugey, slow, and my colored tags are gone. Are there any alternatives that I can  transfer my Evernotes into?

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4 minutes ago, QFieldBoden said:

I for one am not in an emotional state, not in respect of Evernote at any rate, there are bigger issues these days. However, when I select and pay good money for a product that advertises a certain feature set I expect that feature set to remain available, unless I am told otherwise. I made my decision to use Evernote based on the features it offered at the time, and still advertises on it's website. If an "upgrade" is released, I don't expect to have to then "downgrade" to be able to continue to use the features I depend on and want.

If it was a car with air conditioning, sat nav, autopilot, airbags, automatic transmission and park assist fitted and I was offered an "upgrade" I'd not be happy if when I got it back after the upgrade I was left with air-con and nothing else I'd originally bought.

Your expectations are, of course, perfectly reasonable.  Which is why their poor communications about some of the missing features was doubly troubling.  No one expects an upgrade to be a downgrade.  

I've been a position where we added code to make future changes possible.  It slowed everything down.  That sucked.  It was the right business decision and wouldn't pay off for over 12 months.

They have to make a business decision whether it's worth it to lose some folks for a greater purpose.  They may have miscalculated the extent, but I think they made that decision.  

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1 hour ago, TaskClone said:

If it were true that retrieval were hopeless for a significant percentage of desired customers, that would be a massive failure. 

Slowness is not a failure.  In fact, it's often pre-planned.  With many new releases of software, developers include additional logging to track any potential issues.  Over time as these issues are discovered and corrected, the logging is removed.  Ideally this is imperceptible delay, but this is often a feature and not a bug.

None of us is really sure what percentage and which users are most upset about the changes, but it's big enough that they've had to acknowledge something.  Not sure that makes it a massive failure from the company's perspective.  Time will tell.

Since I own a company, I tend to take the company's perspective.  Customers are prone to hyperbole and "end of times" type reactions.  That's fine, but in listening to it, one has to apply a bit of perspective that someone in an emotional state might not be applying.

If logging/debugging is slowing down production apps, the developers should be moved away from any contact with production. I also have run a few companies and have had to deal with new releases put out in the wild, around the world.

Where is the QA, the system tests, the performance tests? We all know how Microsoft decided to forego stringent QA and unit/system tests in some of the debacles that led to Windows 10 roll-backs. Cost cutting testing staff usually ends up costing more in support and lost sales.

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22 hours ago, TaskClone said:

Oh the drama! 

  • ...  This will allow greater focus on the new paying customers that can be brought in.

 

I'd love to hear about the wunderweapon that they have in their secret arsenal that will bring the new paying customers into the most expensive service on the market that still, in 2021, doesn't support some fairly common features that their free or cheaper competition provides. (E.g. encryption). 

They had long term problems doing that with their "legacy" product, that honestly was more featured and less buggy. 

2 hours ago, TaskClone said:

Evernote is smart enough to know that as long as it's viewed as "note-taking" software, it's future is limited.  They have fought against that label for a long time and I would guess that most of their best customers don't think of it as just note-taking software. I don't.

Agreed. They are a content / data management service with notetaking features. They are not a notetaker (not the best one, anyway) and they are not a business suite, regardless of how badly they want to become one. As such, they are still competing against a host of free, freemium, and paid offerings, most of which are way cheaper and just as feature full (lacking in some areas and winning in others). They are losing long term members who were deeply attached to the service and willing to pay the price for it. Time will tell if they will attract enough new paid members to make up for this. Personally, I think they took a wrong turn a few years ago.

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Just a short story.

About a month ago my MS Outlook for Mac asked me if I would like to see a shiny new revolutionary version.

I clicked yes, and in few seconds I sow a nice rework - fast, good UX, maybe a bit too shiny, but working stable.

However, after some time I discovered, that some advanced functionality isn't available yet. But information about lacking functionality wasn't kept in secret. There was a clear message from app about this and that they are working on this. Moreover, there was an option (button) to return to the old app included in the message box. I clicked and in few second I was in my old app - with all my customization, old list of read/unread messages, etc. Everything was as I left them an hour earlier. Moreover, my old app is still officially supported until next year at least. And I can switch between new/old with just one click.

This was a good example how things should be done:

  • a real choice and transparency about it
  • an easy way back without suffering
  • a full support
  • there is a community BackLog where people you can vote on features and company stuffy really engage and comment about progress and future release date

 

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7 minutes ago, Kolmir said:

Just a short story.

About a month ago my MS Outlook for Mac asked me if I would like to see a shiny new revolutionary version.

I clicked yes, and in few seconds I sow a nice rework - fast, good UX, maybe a bit too shiny, but working stable.

However, after some time I discovered, that some advanced functionality isn't available yet. But information about lacking functionality wasn't kept in secret. There was a clear message from app about this and that they are working on this. Moreover, there was an option (button) to return to the old app included in the message box. I clicked and in few second I was in my old app - with all my customization, old list of read/unread messages, etc. Everything was as I left them an hour earlier. Moreover, my old app is still officially supported until next year at least. And I can switch between new/old with just one click.

This was a good example how things should be done:

  • a real choice and transparency about it
  • an easy way back without suffering
  • a full support
  • there is a community BackLog where people you can vote on features and company stuffy really engage and comment about progress and future release date

 

To be fair, while MS does give plenty of warning, and usually provide a very generous grandfathering period, they still don’t listen to their customers any more than Evernote does. Although they did reverse the course on retiring Onenote desktop, but I suspect it was due to the corporate pushback. 
 

IMHO, to understand that V10 rollout, the very first thing to consider is the CEO tenure... he was hired almost exactly two years prior to v10 release. A new CEO hired to fix things at a struggling company gets a free reign in his 1st year, and all of the issues can still be blamed on his predecessors or pains of enacting change. He must however show results by the end of his 2nd year, if he wants to prove that he was the right choice. I think that’s where the rush to roll it out before the end of the year came from.

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2 minutes ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

To be fair, while MS does give plenty of warning, and usually provide a very generous grandfathering period, they still don’t listen to their customers any more than Evernote does. Although they did reverse the course on retiring Onenote desktop, but I suspect it was due to the corporate pushback.

Yeah, but at least they care enough to assure smooth switch instead of unprofessional and unpleasant revolution.. Moreover, as you see, they are able to change their minds. Ian Small prefers plausible deniability instead.

I don't expect perfection. I just want fair treatment, continuity, and assurance. And I get it from MS.

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4 hours ago, ripwit said:

If logging/debugging is slowing down production apps, the developers should be moved away from any contact with production. I also have run a few companies and have had to deal with new releases put out in the wild, around the world.

Where is the QA, the system tests, the performance tests? We all know how Microsoft decided to forego stringent QA and unit/system tests in some of the debacles that led to Windows 10 roll-backs. Cost cutting testing staff usually ends up costing more in support and lost sales.

Understand your opinion, but I know it's common to see this sort of thing.  Although I doubt they didn't do QA and some performance testing.  Just doesn't catch everything and I bet there was plenty that wasn't tested along with some basics that were.  I seldom see a major release, let alone a rewrite that doesn't suffer from significant issues for 30-90 days.  A rewrite of software in use by tens of millions of people across multiple platforms seems destined to have some of this.  

What companies are you aware of that stuck the landing on their first major rewrite with 10 million users of a complex software on one platform?  On 4?

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6 minutes ago, TaskClone said:

I seldom see a major release, let alone a rewrite that doesn't suffer from significant issues for 30-90 days.  A rewrite of software in use by tens of millions of people across multiple platforms seems destined to have some of this.

Sometimes a self full filling prophecy.  Yeah, it's tough to do a major rewrite, wah wah.  ;)  Doesn't obviate the doer from from the effort required for testing and communications to alleviate as much pain as possible for such a significant event.  Don't really think that was a part of the EN game plan for this release based upon what we've seen the last three months. 

V10 was dropped with no Achtungs or buyer bewares at all.  Fend for yourselves kiddies.  That lack of communication is what has irked me the most.  Clueless.  A close second would be all the function that was blown up in the process.  Oh well.

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7 minutes ago, CalS said:

That lack of communication is what has irked me the most.

Agreed, if EN had simply a) effectively communicated in ADVANCE of what they were doing and what was/was not included for the initial roll-out and b) gave people the CHOICE to upgrade to V10 or not on Windows & Mac (I know you can only have one version of Android and iOS) ... I don't think we would have seen so many of the postings over what we all unexpectedly received.

Note: Some people may argue that there was communication before they rolled it out, but I didn't get anything pushed to me as a paying customer.

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19 minutes ago, TaskClone said:

Interesting.  Which wrong turn was that?

I can't speak for Wanderling of course, but a few years ago Evernote decided to suddenly almost double the price of Premium, while simultaneously crippling the Basic free version (most notably confining it to a maximum number of devices). I think that might be the wrong turn that is being referred to. Whether that was truly a wrong turn is debatable, but it certainly was a irrevocable turning point for me.

Up to then I had been tickled pink with Evernote and happy to pay Premium for many years (despite not really even needing all its features, but I wanted to show some support). But overnight I felt that I had landed between a rock and a hard place - I couldn't afford the new premium but also needed at least three devices. When I pointed that out in these forums (along with several other upset customers), we were told we were hysterical whiners, boo hoo posters, freeloaders, etc by the resident forum dwellers. There was almost total radio silence from the staff, except from one or two employees who basically informed us "tis what tis, lump it or leave".

I think that if Evernote had grandfathered us in, or if they had introduced these changes more gradually, or if they had given some soothing reason why this was for our own good, or heck, if they had created a super great new version of Evernote that made the price hike palatable, I think all that "drama" back then could have been prevented.

The point I'm trying to make though is that from that moment on, I vowed to find an alternative, a thought that until then hadn't even occurred to me. I actively tried to leave Evernote from that moment on, but it wasn't until early 2020 that I finally found that alternative (Joplin, in my case).

I have a feeling that Evernote is not done making wrong turns, and this upgrade to v10 seems to prove it. I have no idea if that 2015 "fiasco" made many customers determined to flee back then, nor do I know if many today put their money where their mouth is. However, I'll say this: the competition has not sat still and nowadays there are many more alternatives to Evernote than back then.

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6 minutes ago, CalS said:

That lack of communication is what has irked me the most.  Clueless.  A close second would be all the function that was blown up in the process.  Oh well.

Can't really disagree with that.  If you're going to punch me in the gut, tell me first.  I won't want to hear it, but it's better than the alternative.  

I'm on the developer side and I guarantee you every time Evernote or OneNote sneeze, we catch a cold.  Right now, syncing doesn't work the same with their new apps.  It sucks and impacts our bottom line.  However, OneNote is no better.  They made a change and now their API delays indexing (i.e. recognizing) notes created within the last 30 minutes.  Imagine creating a note and the service that looks for that note can't find it for 30 minutes.

Trust me, I feel the pain as none of this stuff gets communicated and half the time they wouldn't know unless we told them.  My primary point is that I've seen this so much, it's to be expected (not necessarily accepted).

Again, Evernote is not the only company that does this.  After their layoffs, I expected this sort of cost cutting to focus on what they considered "core".  They also suffer from this thing in tech where if you let anyone know what's coming, you've somehow worsened your competitive position.  Shock and awe is preferred over predictable releases of known priorities and known tradeoffs.  That's unfortunate, but not surprising.

I will say, it seems like some last minute changes were made before release.  The syncing issues we face now did not occur on earlier builds that we beta-tested.  Something happened along the way.

 

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15 minutes ago, TechPerplexed said:

 

I can't speak for Wanderling of course, but a few years ago Evernote decided to suddenly almost double the price of Premium, while simultaneously crippling the Basic free version (most notably confining it to a maximum number of devices). I think that might be the wrong turn that is being referred to. Whether that was truly a wrong turn is debatable, but it certainly was a irrevocable turning point for me.

Definitely think that move made the average user realize that all was not well.  Those keeping up with the company's struggles could see that coming, but the form it took was curious.  You usually try to do that stuff along with a major upgrade on bring features from higher plans downward.  It sorta cushions the blow.  I assume they owned too much of the market already for grandfathering to be feasible.  They have far more analytics about their demand curve than we do, so I assume they made the decision that was warranted.  

I took it as a race to be profitable enough to justify the existing investors' patience or pay them off.  I may never know, but I always speculate that too much VC money makes you chase a home run when a solid double of a company would be just fine.  Many go out trying to steal third instead.  Evernote has had enough of a user base to not flame out entirely, but that provides only so much runway to get it right.

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13 minutes ago, TaskClone said:

Can't really disagree with that.  If you're going to punch me in the gut, tell me first.  I won't want to hear it, but it's better than the alternative.  

Yup.

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15 minutes ago, TaskClone said:

Imagine creating a note and the service that looks for that note can't find it for 30 minutes.

On the personal side imagine adding a note and not being able to find it for three minutes.  Matters if you are in the midst of a project.  6.25.1, change it now, find it now.  Again, oh well.

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In the legacy Evernote, when I move a note to a different notebook, the entire note gets moved to the new notebook. 

With the new update, when I move a note, it looks like I just made a copy of the original note. I'm stuck with the same exact note in two different notebooks. This is making my records a mess and confusing. They should not have changed that feature. All I want is to have the note "moved" not "copy" or "duplicate". 

I went as far as installing the legacy Evernote which is useless because I can't even get past the login screen. I'm stuck at "Cannot connect to server. Please try again" error. 

 

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I joined the forum just to say how much I hate the new evernote design.

Why can't I format interface dates to just be numbers - i.e. 12/12/20 - now all my columns have to show the entirety of the date listed out (ie. Nov, 9, 2020 so I can't tabulate and sort my info at a glance on smaller windows. 

Why does this version FEEL so much more cloud based - so that I actually have errors when switching between notes? Why is big tech CONSTANTLY pushing us on the cloud.

Awful. I been an evernote user for a decade - and this is the first time I'm searching for alternatives. But it will be a truly painful split - everything in my life is on here.

 

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5 hours ago, TaskClone said:

Interesting.  Which wrong turn was that?

Nearly doubling the price without adding any features, making Evernote the most expensive of all competing apps in the market, while already having problems attracting new paying customers. At the same time, they announced the change in their strategy - the new emphasis on expanding into business market as opposed to consumer market. 

I suspected back then that the pricing change was an effort to maximize current revenue at the expense of those existing users that were deeply committed to Evernote, even if this meant not attracting as many new users willing to try the service, in order to use the new revenue to finance the business-oriented expansion. I, and quite a few other users on this forum, believed that to be a mistake -  it would have been extremely hard to break into an already saturated segment, the competition for business accounts is much harsher than in consumer space, and even if they could land major corporate contracts, Evernote doesn't seem able to provide the level of support these kinds of accounts require. 

I believe that the time proved us right - their business expansion did not really happen. In the meantime, they got hooked on that extra cash coming from their longtime loyal paying users that were willing to pay the highest prices in this market segment, and they can't risk reversing their pricing strategy to make the service more appealing and more competitive to bring in new users.  They are stuck. 

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I’ve been a user since 2009 - just had to pile on here.  I thought I was the issue, that my internet or computer or iPad was bad - but now realizing that’s not the case.  I can’t comment on many of the features since Evernote has been too slow to even use.  The lag is insane - I can’t.believe this was tested before release.  I have a very serious problem now since so much of my life is stored in Evernote - maybe a risk I should have considered more seriously.  I will for sure going forward.  Evernote, can’t hold all my eggs in their basket, regretfully I see that now.  Sigh.

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18 hours ago, TaskClone said:

Can't really disagree with that.  If you're going to punch me in the gut, tell me first.  I won't want to hear it, but it's better than the alternative.  

I'm on the developer side and I guarantee you every time Evernote or OneNote sneeze, we catch a cold.  Right now, syncing doesn't work the same with their new apps.  It sucks and impacts our bottom line.  However, OneNote is no better.  They made a change and now their API delays indexing (i.e. recognizing) notes created within the last 30 minutes.  Imagine creating a note and the service that looks for that note can't find it for 30 minutes.

Trust me, I feel the pain as none of this stuff gets communicated and half the time they wouldn't know unless we told them.  My primary point is that I've seen this so much, it's to be expected (not necessarily accepted).

Again, Evernote is not the only company that does this.  After their layoffs, I expected this sort of cost cutting to focus on what they considered "core".  They also suffer from this thing in tech where if you let anyone know what's coming, you've somehow worsened your competitive position.  Shock and awe is preferred over predictable releases of known priorities and known tradeoffs.  That's unfortunate, but not surprising.

I will say, it seems like some last minute changes were made before release.  The syncing issues we face now did not occur on earlier builds that we beta-tested.  Something happened along the way.

 

Evernote however doesn't have a luxury of doing this with a free product that's preinstalled by default on tens of millions computers running MS Office, thus already getting a massive exposure advantage from the start. Especially now that MS is making a major push tp promote Onenote to educational institutions, which means millions of students would be required to use it (and develop attachment to it via learned habits). 

Evernote's paying user base is heavily composed of people who joined it many years ago, when it was all the rage and the major player in then still underserved market. Things have been quite a bit different for quite a while now. 

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18 hours ago, TaskClone said:

Shock and awe is preferred over predictable releases of known priorities and known tradeoffs.

I think with v10 it was more shock and dismay...

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15 hours ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

Nearly doubling the price without adding any features, making Evernote the most expensive of all competing apps in the market, while already having problems attracting new paying customers. At the same time, they announced the change in their strategy - the new emphasis on expanding into business market as opposed to consumer market. 

I suspected back then that the pricing change was an effort to maximize current revenue at the expense of those existing users that were deeply committed to Evernote, even if this meant not attracting as many new users willing to try the service, in order to use the new revenue to finance the business-oriented expansion. I, and quite a few other users on this forum, believed that to be a mistake -  it would have been extremely hard to break into an already saturated segment, the competition for business accounts is much harsher than in consumer space, and even if they could land major corporate contracts, Evernote doesn't seem able to provide the level of support these kinds of accounts require. 

I believe that the time proved us right - their business expansion did not really happen. In the meantime, they got hooked on that extra cash coming from their longtime loyal paying users that were willing to pay the highest prices in this market segment, and they can't risk reversing their pricing strategy to make the service more appealing and more competitive to bring in new users.  They are stuck. 

I agree with this assessment.  I think Evernote has never solved its identity crisis.  It needs to do that for business adoption and broader paid consumer success.  Being a Swiss Army Knife has not been a good marketing strategy.  As much as SaaS companies want to go enterprise like Asana has done, you have to articulate solving a clear business need better than alternatives.  Evernote doesn't do that.  Neither does OneNote.  Their core value proposition is much more personal than business.  There's a business connection, but it's indirect for most.  

I think they needed the revenue enhancement for more than chasing business expansion though.  I think they needed it to justify the investments that are paying for the work they're doing now.  Everyone knew they needed to give away less and earn more.  Evernote was the poster child for that.  The way it was done just left an awful taste for many.  I also thought they would take a more gradual approach over a few years that coincided with feature improvements, but seemed the urgency was too great.

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55 minutes ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

Evernote however doesn't have a luxury

They don't have many luxuries.  Like a parent that is willing to spend money for years with no direct return.  Like an in-built ecosystem.  Like an R&D division (the Azure cloud and Graph API)  that adds handwriting recognition, integration with Outlook and other features built for other purposes, but easily added to OneNote.  Like sales and support teams with existing relationships with enterprise and now SMB clients.  

What Evernote should have to compete with this is the ability to focus and iterate quickly.  That competitive advantage has not been there for years.  We'll see if recent changes fix that.

MS has recently taken their eye off of crushing EN entirely, focusing rather on the more lucrative effort to embed themselves in verticals (education) and use OneNote like Teams; to sell more Business Office 365 subscriptions.  MS has no problem with oligopolies anyway.  

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26 minutes ago, TaskClone said:

They don't have many luxuries.  Like a parent that is willing to spend money for years with no direct return.  Like an in-built ecosystem.  Like an R&D division (the Azure cloud and Graph API)  that adds handwriting recognition, integration with Outlook and other features built for other purposes, but easily added to OneNote.  Like sales and support teams with existing relationships with enterprise and now SMB clients.  

What Evernote should have to compete with this is the ability to focus and iterate quickly.  That competitive advantage has not been there for years.  We'll see if recent changes fix that.

MS has recently taken their eye off of crushing EN entirely, focusing rather on the more lucrative effort to embed themselves in verticals (education) and use OneNote like Teams; to sell more Business Office 365 subscriptions.  MS has no problem with oligopolies anyway.  

MS never had a plan to crush EN entirely. Actually, they never had a plan for Onenote at all, until recently. Onenote was their red-haired stepchild, never really receiving  the marketing attention that other products were getting. For a decade, it would be automatically installed on millions of desktops, yet most of these users didn't know what it was, why it existed, what it could be used for. Heck, most probably didn't even know they had it. The push to promote the use of Onenote is just a few years old, and even now, MS is still very bad at marketing it. 

As to oligopoly - Evernote still seems to think they are a monopoly, judging by their pricing plan. Either that, or they are deliberately giving up on attracting new paid users in order to maximize current revenue, even if it's not a sustainable long term plan.

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56 minutes ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

MS never had a plan to crush EN entirely. Actually, they never had a plan for Onenote at all, until recently.

Either that, or they are deliberately giving up on attracting new paid users in order to maximize current revenue, even if it's not a sustainable long term plan.

I agree about MS.  Since they got their new CEO, they've gotten smarter about many things and one was to invest a bit in OneNote.  I was actually a OneNote user until I decided I wanted to build TaskClone and found OneNote didn't even have an API (they built it in 2014).  However, they did aggressively go after Evernote in that period, publishing pages like this - https://www.onenote.com/import-evernote-to-onenote.  That focus has again waned.

I can tell you that marketing works.  In the weeks after Evernote's "relaunch", we saw a significant spike in new Evernote users and I bet some of them are paid.  When nobody is talking about you and you get few referrals, you're dying.  Most folks who see Evernote's relaunch in the press have no idea this forum even exists.  What their actual demand curve looks like, none of us knows.   If they get the value prop right, I'm confident enough people will pay (and I think they and their investors are confident of that too).   I believe their identity problem is the bigger hurdle.  I hope to help them solve it.  

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2 hours ago, TaskClone said:

I agree with this assessment.  I think Evernote has never solved its identity crisis.  It needs to do that for business adoption and broader paid consumer success.  Being a Swiss Army Knife has not been a good marketing strategy.  As much as SaaS companies want to go enterprise like Asana has done, you have to articulate solving a clear business need better than alternatives.  Evernote doesn't do that.  Neither does OneNote.  Their core value proposition is much more personal than business.  There's a business connection, but it's indirect for most.  

I think they needed the revenue enhancement for more than chasing business expansion though.  I think they needed it to justify the investments that are paying for the work they're doing now.  Everyone knew they needed to give away less and earn more.  Evernote was the poster child for that.  The way it was done just left an awful taste for many.  I also thought they would take a more gradual approach over a few years that coincided with feature improvements, but seemed the urgency was too great.

You’re probably correct.

At any rate, the right thing to do would be to grandfather the existing paid accounts into the old pricing structure, at least for a couple of years, while simultaneously removing features in the free Basic plan and introducing Plus and Premium at new prices. But it may be indeed that the urgency to show immediate cash flow improvement was just too great.

I still think that Evernote, in its current form, with its current pricing structure, and given the competition, is not well positioned to grow their paid user base. Time will tell.

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3 hours ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

I still think that Evernote, in its current form, with its current pricing structure, and given the competition, is not well positioned to grow their paid user base. Time will tell.

I agree, but I think the pivot has been harder for Evernote than others.  Evernote gave away so much for so long.  Others also had a clearer strategy to go after enterprise so they could give away more at the personal tier to get adoption rates up. 

I remember when Mailchimp decided to essentially ditch the transactional aspect of their business and go up-market.  They initially grandfathered clients, then decided that wasn't enough revenue and stopped the grandfathering.  What a debacle.  Probably better for their profit margins, but they lost lots of loyal long-term clients (including us). I'm sure they knew their demand curve quite well and didn't care.  It was a business decision and I was disappointed, but I run a business, so I get it.  Poor communication is usually the kicker that hurts most.

I just compared Evernote's pricing to Dropbox's.  Dropbox is more expensive.  I know people don't usually compare the two, but look at the feature set.  This is why I say their real issue is an identity issue.  At the end of the day, for the mid-level managers, freelancers and small business owners that use Evernote, is their $100 a year worth of value?  Think of the opportunity cost of that money.  Where that $100 would go otherwise.  For those who use Evernote for more than a note-taker, the answer is most likely going to be yes.  

As for competitors, first Evernote has to iron out the bugs/glitches and demonstrate there is a future.  Once that is done, there is plenty of market for them and others based on simple user preferences.  They've survived Microsoft offering a feature-equal, free product that is on many of their customers' computers for free.  Look at the task app market (the other market I'm in).  There are literally dozens of quite similar players with no one winning on features alone.  Everybody's productivity seems fiercely personal.  

As you say though, "Time will tell".

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51 minutes ago, TaskClone said:

I agree, but I think the pivot has been harder for Evernote than others.  Evernote gave away so much for so long.  Others also had a clearer strategy to go after enterprise so they could give away more at the personal tier to get adoption rates up. 

I remember when Mailchimp decided to essentially ditch the transactional aspect of their business and go up-market.  They initially grandfathered clients, then decided that wasn't enough revenue and stopped the grandfathering.  What a debacle.  Probably better for their profit margins, but they lost lots of loyal long-term clients (including us). I'm sure they knew their demand curve quite well and didn't care.  It was a business decision and I was disappointed, but I run a business, so I get it.  Poor communication is usually the kicker that hurts most.

I just compared Evernote's pricing to Dropbox's.  Dropbox is more expensive.  I know people don't usually compare the two, but look at the feature set.  This is why I say their real issue is an identity issue.  At the end of the day, for the mid-level managers, freelancers and small business owners that use Evernote, is their $100 a year worth of value?  Think of the opportunity cost of that money.  Where that $100 would go otherwise.  For those who use Evernote for more than a note-taker, the answer is most likely going to be yes.  

As for competitors, first Evernote has to iron out the bugs/glitches and demonstrate there is a future.  Once that is done, there is plenty of market for them and others based on simple user preferences.  They've survived Microsoft offering a feature-equal, free product that is on many of their customers' computers for free.  Look at the task app market (the other market I'm in).  There are literally dozens of quite similar players with no one winning on features alone.  Everybody's productivity seems fiercely personal.  

As you say though, "Time will tell".

But most people don't see Evernote as a Dropbox, they see it as a note taking / information organizing tool. And looking at Dropbox... I can get the entire Office suite (Excel, Word, Powerpoint, Outlook) + 1TB of storage for $50 a year under MS' HUP that most people whose employers use O365 would be eligible for. Dropbox has something like 15 mln paid users and its revenue growth is slowing down and about half that of MS (with about 200 mln paid O365 accounts) and both are way behind Google.  Dropbox has the same issue as EN, it doesn't have good conversion rates from free to paid (IIRC theirs was something like 3%) and is overpriced.

I also doubt that the majority of paid Premium EN users are "mid-level managers, freelancers and small business owners". Some of them are, of course, but the majority are just private individuals getting EN for themselves. EN business plan was not exactly a shining success, to date.

Them surviving MS' free offering is due to timing. During the high point of Evernote (2009 to 2013 or so) Onenote was not a serious competitor - it was forgotten by MS' own marketing, obscure, and unavailable outside of Windows (or available in a severely crippled form). Back then, Evernote was the name everyone talked about, it got tremendous exposure, and built a large user base. I bet that the majority of current paid users had first started with Evernote five or more years ago. By the time MS' got more serious about Onenote (which they still don't market too well), Evernote has already grabbed its chunk of loyal user base. And once you really get used to a specific product, it's easier to pay what was then a reasonable subscription price, than to change to something completely different with its own share of issues. I agree, nobody's winning on features alone, but it's hard for EN to win on features + price without making that combination far more appealing.

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2 hours ago, Wanderling Reborn said:

Back then, Evernote was the name everyone talked about,

Not to mention it was basically shoved down people's throats because it was preinstalled and unremovable on every Android phone I had back then.

In fact the reason I had Premium until last month is because I factory reset my old Note 4 about two years ago and after installation received 120 points for signing in to Evernote, which turned out to be one additional year of Premium.

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On Mac in the "bad old days" of the launch of version 6 (late 2014) and the IMHO bad UI changes that version brought I rolled back not to 5.7.x but to 5.6.x on my "work laptop" (I don't use "local" notebooks so it's not a big issue), though I left 5.7.x on another machine. For me this by now ancient version continued to work PERFECTLY until the day in November I needed to install "Big Sur" and the "ancient" version of Evernote crashed on launch... So I downloaded the then latest Evernote, seeing version "10" and thinking "wow I must have missed hearing about so many versions"... Nope, they skipped a bunch of version numbers and in my opinion "ruined it completely".

I did briefly put the "legacy" version 7.14.1 on my work laptop but it didn't "feel" right so again did a "roll back" to the "real Evernote" 7.14 version taken from its announcement post, ensuring to disable the update mechanism. I feel that are still things that my beloved version 5 did (does) better, but still a better application than what appeared as "the new Evernote"...

Today I read the "we goofed" (state of the product) blog post from December which addresses some concerns but to me only partially addresses the problem. Yes communication was bad but with SO MANY missing features (it didn't even have "settings" when I looked at v10 in November) I personally believe what SHOULD have been done is restore the "real" older version(s) on the download page alongside the new version, not some slightly mangled "Legacy" version buried on a too hard to find (IMHO) support page and actually let people CHOOSE whether they want to live on the cutting edge or use a fully featured version. Just take a look at LibreOffice for an example of this in action!

The irony for me is that the old version 5 Mac icon actually fits better with the visual design of Big Sur than the newer version 7 Mac icon.

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On 12/1/2020 at 11:45 PM, WilliamL said:

I truly don’t get the hysteria around the legacy app which exists in these forums. What is this mysterious bug people speak of that means you need support and won’t get it? It’s stable. It’s getting exhausting now cause here’s the thing - if you want to leave, that is your choice, no judgement, we are customers and have the right to use what we feel suits us best. 

Agreed. I'm puzzled with all the comments on how awful it is. The implementation of tags still beats anything other application I've encountered. I'm happy with the new version. The ability to choose pre-defined headers was a much needed improvement.

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@Brian Handscomb @jlady

Glad V10 works for you.  The commotion you hear is from customers like me whose use case of EN has been mangled, no drama, mangled by the new release. 

Over the past 10 years I have become paperless using EN, leveraging the features of the product.  More than a few of those features were removed and have made it nigh on impossible for me to get anything done in an effective manner with V10.   And it is slow as molasses in the winter time to boot.  Net of it all, it's a use case thing. 

So I stick with 6.25.1 on Windows.  Just hoping EN rolls back the features (they have not been specific as to which) and improves speed.  Don't really want to migrate to something else, way too much work.

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1 hour ago, CalS said:

@Brian Handscomb 

Glad V10 works for you.

Didn't say that... far from it... In terms of "live clients" I still have as far back as 4.6.2 Windows and 5.6.2 Mac and am not seeing any problem. In fact the only "problem" I have with 7.14 Mac is unlike my "beloved" 5.6/5.7 clients it seems 7.14 seems to want to insist that tables are wider than the notes forcing you to scroll and just like all the 6.x and v7.x clients there is no divider between the note title and the note body... The latter is a minor thing but to me is something I really liked (still like) with v5 Mac.

IMHO when I saw 10.4.3 in November it struck me as something that wasn't even ready for beta testing let alone something released and improved upon already...

I'd love Evernote to about turn and return to the "real applications" they had before the V10 "web site in a wrapper" solution (similar to how WinAmp 5 went back to the WinAmp 2 code and abandoned the majority of the WinAmp 3 code) but it is clear the development version of the "sunk cost fallacy" is at work. I will continue to happily use my PRE-V10 clients, until something happens to force me to move my 10 years worth of notes elsewhere...

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54 minutes ago, Brian Handscomb said:

Didn't say that... far from it... In terms of "live clients" I still have as far back as 4.6.2 Windows and 5.6.2 Mac and am not seeing any problem. In fact the only "problem" I have with 7.14 Mac is unlike my "beloved" 5.6/5.7 clients it seems 7.14 seems to want to insist that tables are wider than the notes forcing you to scroll and just like all the 6.x and v7.x clients there is no divider between the note title and the note body... The latter is a minor thing but to me is something I really liked (still like) with v5 Mac.

IMHO when I saw 10.4.3 in November it struck me as something that wasn't even ready for beta testing let alone something released and improved upon already...

I'd love Evernote to about turn and return to the "real applications" they had before the V10 "web site in a wrapper" solution (similar to how WinAmp 5 went back to the WinAmp 2 code and abandoned the majority of the WinAmp 3 code) but it is clear the development version of the "sunk cost fallacy" is at work. I will continue to happily use my PRE-V10 clients, until something happens to force me to move my 10 years worth of notes elsewhere...

My bad, sorry about that.

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16 hours ago, TechPerplexed said:

Not to mention it was basically shoved down people's throats because it was preinstalled and unremovable on every Android phone I had back then.

In fact the reason I had Premium until last month is because I factory reset my old Note 4 about two years ago and after installation received 120 points for signing in to Evernote, which turned out to be one additional year of Premium.

Well, back around 2009 I actually actively went out of my way to get Evernote working on my Windows Mobile phone - with no shoving. Back then, it was probably the only really useful service of its kind, and after a while I did not mind paying what then was a reasonable subscription fee. OneNote back then sucked even on Windows Mobile, and the only other service I kind of liked was Springpad, but they didn’t last. EN certainly had momentum. 

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I appreciate your experience, but that was not entirely the point I was trying to make... ;)  I think that a lot of people like myself would never even have considered Evernote if they hadn't appeared EVERYWHERE or if they hadn't thrown around free premium years like candy. I swallowed the hook and even after they upped the price to ridiculous heights I kept paying because there wasn't a viable alternative.

Then again I agree with you 100% that this is no longer the case, I believe there are ample alternatives now to suit just about everyone's needs and wants.

Only the truly loyal seem to stick it out with Evernote to the bitter end, and even in those ranks I see some discomfort with the new version v10.

As you and others have been saying, only time will tell where this will be going... with free products like Joplin adding new and exciting features by the minute (today they announced their new experimental personal server and official plugin repository for example), it will be a hard sell for Evernote to attract new customers!

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10 hours ago, TechPerplexed said:

I think that a lot of people like myself would never even have considered Evernote if they hadn't appeared EVERYWHERE

I think that's called marketing...

10 hours ago, TechPerplexed said:

Only the truly loyal seem to stick it out with Evernote to the bitter end

I'm still here,  though I have an exit plan. I've adopted the Starship Trooper attitude to applications - "you're my preference - until you stop working or I find a better one." (Also known as Rasczak's Rule) 

10 hours ago, TechPerplexed said:

even in those ranks I see some discomfort with the new version v10.

Ya think???

10 hours ago, TechPerplexed said:

it will be a hard sell for Evernote to attract new customers!

Just did a quick search for 'best note-taking app' - guess which one got a mention every single time...

The new app (won't dignify it with a version) is probably good for most users who've not experienced Evernote before,  and don't need most of the advanced features.  Students and general-purpose note-takers should do fine.

Those with workflows geared towards clipping and importing data,  not so much.  😒 

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I've just upgraded to the Legacy version as version 10 was driving me insane.

As a user of 8+ years at Premium I felt compelled to add my voice to those calling for the powers that be at Evernote to review why this product needed to be changed so drastically.

As things stand, PITA that it is, I will not be renewing my subscription. Good luck attracting more non-paying customers.

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13 hours ago, TechPerplexed said:

Only the truly loyal seem to stick it out with Evernote to the bitter end, and even in those ranks I see some discomfort with the new version v10.

Maybe, but I think most of us are pragmatic.  Sure, we use and like Evernote and hope they succeed.  That is why we are here, but if the pain is great enough and there is a better alternative out there, I'll jump ship and not look back.  There is a lot of new and interesting development in this app space, which I follow, but for my needs, currently the EN legacy version is still the best.

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Pragmatic is the way to be :D If you are happy with a product, stay. Once you are unhappy, go (if you can *). You are shown no loyalty from Evernote (or other companies for that matter), so no need to stay loyal yourself.

*) It's the "if you can" that had me upset for a while, because I couldn't. Luckily nowadays one can, if one wishes. To me that made all the difference in the world :)

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40 minutes ago, TechPerplexed said:

If you are happy with a product, stay. Once you are unhappy, go (if you can *).

Before I commit to any service I made sure I have an easy exit
Evernote (Legacy) meets this requirement with the export feature

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23 minutes ago, TechPerplexed said:

Yes but then you need something to exit TO. Hence the need for competing products, which thankfully exist in abundance today.

All with such a variance in feature sets which satisfy different use cases better and worse.  I've looked and none work as well for me and my use case as 6.25.1.  A major PITA coming if EN does not add back chunks of the removed features.  No single provider solution anymore, sub optimal all around me, add products and change process.  Geez.  :(

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4 hours ago, DTLow said:

Before I commit to any service I made sure I have an easy exit
Evernote (Legacy) meets this requirement with the export feature

I know what you mean about being able to get your notes out of Evernote by exporting ALL notes to a single ENEX file, I do that as a backup. My question is what do you currently think is the best thing to actually do WITH that ENEX file in terms of other services?

Just picking your brains!

Thanks.

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43 minutes ago, QFieldBoden said:

My question is what do you currently think is the best thing to actually do WITH that ENEX file in terms of other services?

Some services are able to import directly from the Evernote app, or from the .enex file

Personally, as part of my backups I run a weekly export in .html format
The notes are read-able using any browser app

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My experience is that the import function of all the the other services I have tried (admittedly not that many) has failed to import all the notes in a 500 note test ENEX.  Could be a use case thing but worth a test if one seriously considers moving from EN.

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I tried to import one of my local notebooks into Onenote, and it cranked away for over 8 hours.  Then after completion told me that about 1000 notes could not be imported.  I haven’t looked into this any further.

I tried Devonthink a year or so ago and that appeared to import everything flawlessly.  At least as best as I could tell with some cursory checking.  Since it is a Mac app, it is not a work solution for me, but I was interested in trying it out.

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The process is probably different: DEVONthink is AFAIK using an API interface to draw the notes directly from the EN server. From postings in the DT Forum this seems to work pretty flawlessly, since DT supports a similar logical structure, using tags as well.

Two things: As you mentioned, it is Mac only, and sorry guys, you need to buy it. No free ride on this train. Which probably renders it useless for the 85% of EN users who just want to put their notes somewhere, without giving a dam about how the show is sponsored.

For those on a Mac who need a new free place probably Apple Notes is a good option to check out. No tags, but pretty much of everything else.

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12 hours ago, DTLow said:

Some services are able to import directly from the Evernote app, or from the .enex file

Personally, as part of my backups I run a weekly export in .html format
The notes are read-able using any browser app

Which services can import ENEX files directly and still retain the "structure" from Evernote  tags? What I'm looking for is a truly workable alternative system that allows ENEX files to be directly imported which does not then need a ton of work to get things into some kind of order.

I understand the ability to export as HTML but that's not really a good end point in terms of an electronic filing system.

I'm just trying to establish whether there really is a decent alternative to Evernote, which will quickly and easily digest ENEX files, my current belief is that there isn't.

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11 hours ago, CalS said:

My experience is that the import function of all the the other services I have tried (admittedly not that many) has failed to import all the notes in a 500 note test ENEX.  Could be a use case thing but worth a test if one seriously considers moving from EN.

That is my impression also, I'm glad it isn't just me!

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11 hours ago, s2sailor said:

I tried Devonthink a year or so ago and that appeared to import everything flawlessly.  At least as best as I could tell with some cursory checking.  Since it is a Mac app, it is not a work solution for me, but I was interested in trying it out.

Devonthink is not something I've looked at, I might check it out, thanks.

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12 hours ago, s2sailor said:

I tried Devonthink a year or so ago and that appeared to import everything flawlessly.

Another vote for Devonthink (Mac only)    
It's my exit plan A
Warning: tags are converted correctly, but hierarchy is lost and poorly supported    
Also, for Blade Runner fans - there are replicants 🙂

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14 hours ago, QFieldBoden said:

I know what you mean about being able to get your notes out of Evernote by exporting ALL notes to a single ENEX file, I do that as a backup.

Dumping ALL your notes into single ENEX file doesn't save your folder structure. If you import this one XML file, you will have a big pile of notes in one folder.

Not useful backup option for me as I use about 20 folders to organize thousands of my notes.

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1 hour ago, QFieldBoden said:

Which services can import ENEX files directly and still retain the "structure" from Evernote  tags? What I'm looking for is a truly workable alternative system that allows ENEX files to be directly imported which does not then need a ton of work to get things into some kind of order.

I used ENEX files to import my current notes to Joplin.

Only element missing is tree structure of tags, as Joplin currently uses flat tags approach, but - as opposed to Evernote - has tree structure of folders.

Joplin is very good for text notes, not so useful if you dump many / big attachements info your workflow - BECAUSE current state of Joplin mobile app replicates ALL notes, there is not partial replication implemented (yet).

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2 hours ago, DTLow said:

Warning: tags are converted correctly, but hierarchy is lost and poorly supported

I think those that made heavy use of tag hierarchy in Evernote, and want to maintain that, will have more of a challenge finding an app replacement without some restructuring first.

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3 minutes ago, s2sailor said:

I think those that made heavy use of tag hierarchy in Evernote, and want to maintain that, will have more of a challenge finding an app replacement without some restructuring first.

Those who want a direct replacement of Evernote, should stick with Evernote. The same goes for pretty much any other note taker save for uncategorized plaintext notes. 

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6 minutes ago, s2sailor said:

I think those that made heavy use of tag hierarchy in Evernote, and want to maintain that, will have more of a challenge finding an app replacement without some restructuring first.

10+ year Evernote paid user here.  I have found Devonthink to be feature-complete (and in many cases superior) in tag hierarchy and management.  

Full disclaimer: Plenty of other tradeoffs to consider and I haven't made the full leap yet.  But have spent a month trialing DevonThink in parallel, and it does tagging better.

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2 hours ago, ek12 said:

10+ year Evernote paid user here.  I have found Devonthink to be feature-complete (and in many cases superior) in tag hierarchy and management.  

Full disclaimer: Plenty of other tradeoffs to consider and I haven't made the full leap yet.  But have spent a month trialing DevonThink in parallel, and it does tagging better.

There are other downsides: DevonThink is platform-locked: APPLE only, a complete showstopper for me as I do not use and do not intend do use Apple devices.

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23 minutes ago, Piotas said:

There are other downsides: DevonThink is platform-locked: APPLE only, a complete showstopper for me as I do not use and do not intend do use Apple devices.

Yup. this is true DT is Apple only.  I am all apple and do not use or intend to use anything non Apple, so this is not a showstopper for me :)

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17 hours ago, PinkElephant said:

The process is probably different: DEVONthink is AFAIK using an API interface to draw the notes directly from the EN server.

it turns out DevonThink does not take the data from ENs servers but instead from the local database of the mac "legacy" client. this allows it to keep not only the notebooks and tag structure intact, but also import all the local, i.e. non synced notebooks.

and it is keeping that local data local that was one of my key points for moving over to DT after the release of V10 in october (am very happy I switched). have summarized my experience over there in case somebody is interested: https://discourse.devontechnologies.com/t/moving-from-evernote-to-devonthink-in-2020/59211

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Obviously you are (alone, I mean).

For me anyhow there is much too much hate in the world. Hate is making faces ugly, breath smelly and minds dark.

And most haters hate themselves above all.

So in short - hate is for losers, electionwise and else.

Have a nice day, stay safe !

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1 hour ago, PinkElephant said:

For me anyhow there is much too much hate in the world. Hate is making faces ugly, breath smelly and minds dark.

I just realized that I don't hate new Evernote; I am just a fan of older, better, fully-featured and fast Evernote.

Older Evernote (now called Legacy Evernote) spoiled me to the point that all competitive offerings are, in some aspect, of note taking, INFERIOR to Legacy Evernote.

Even Joplin I started to like so much doesn't have (yet) a reliable weblink to connect its notes from the world outside (for example: Google Contact links, external CRM solutions etc.) while Evernote delivers, with downside that new desktop app v10 is currently useless for me (due to conflict with default keyboard binding of PL-PL keyboard - I cannot type some letters without activating Evernote v10 actions like screenshot).

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We can all agree to this, I think.

Although the team at EN is working (hard or not is difficult to tell from the outside) on getting v10 off the ramp, finally.

They released iOS 10.3 these days, and it is working quite snuggly, much improved. In some features it tops the old client, like a nice editor, nested tags, better search and the like. Some more are still missing ´til feature parity, like mail a note, send business cards to contacts and search in pdfs - plus getting the Apple Watch App back.

On desktop, there is still more to do, but there is legacy as well to ease the worst pains.

Personally I tend to prefer encouraging the developers who are working to get it done, than blaming them for a premature release. I doubt that this decision was engineering-driven.

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30 minutes ago, Piotas said:

Older Evernote (now called Legacy Evernote) spoiled me to the point that all competitive offerings are, in some aspect, of note taking, INFERIOR to Legacy Evernote.

YUP!

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55 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

Personally I tend to prefer encouraging the developers who are working to get it done, than blaming them for a premature release. I doubt that this decision was engineering-driven.

VERY good point. Thank you!

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On 1/7/2021 at 7:47 AM, Piotas said:

Joplin is very good for text notes, not so useful if you dump many / big attachements info your workflow - BECAUSE current state of Joplin mobile app replicates ALL notes, there is not partial replication implemented (yet).

Tools > Options > Synchronization > Advanced Settings - change attachment download behavior to Manual. Only the attachments you select for download get downloaded to your mobile device.

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Why are we surprised? Pretty much very new version since way back in the version 4 days has been horrible! I will say that this one takes the cake though. It's so dysfunctional, I had to take it off of my machine and go back to the previous version to even use it. (Thanks for offering the prior version by the way, I guess I should at least give credit for that.)

We seem to see this cycle over and over. Releasing software that is sooo bad it cannot even be used, then hoping it isn't updated to another train wreck before it's fixed enough to be functional again. We seem to only get about a year or two of useful software before it gets destroyed again in the name of a new revision.

Please understand, it is not that Evernote is the best software out there, it's the functionality that Evernote tries to convince is it can do, that is. Great design, horrible, horrible execution.

Is anybody listening? Please fix this. My life is in there. (I've tried to get it out, but the export function isn't working either.)

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On 1/2/2021 at 4:57 PM, TaskClone said:

For the record, I don't think that's the major issue here.  I think the major issue here is some of the compromises needed to create a unified base across platforms given the limitations of the tools available.  Combine that with the limitations of beta testing such widely used software and POOR communications. 

 

The major issue for me is that they have released something that is almost unusable and riddled with bugs. I can no longer switch between notebooks without errors, half the time I open it the notebooks are empty, and they have removed the basic functionality of being able to drag/copy images - which I somewhat expect (and hope) is a bug. Thats not acceptable for a product that people are paying money for. It should have been rolled back by the company. Its been a long time now and issues that affect the basic stability and functionality of the app still have not been repaired.

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=> Riggar

Sorry for the lame question - what version do YOU prefer and what version do you hate?

I’ve been off Evernote for the last year due to illness and trying to figure out what version to go forward with.

thanks!

 

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2 hours ago, pcryan5 said:

=> Riggar

Sorry for the lame question - what version do YOU prefer and what version do you hate?

I’ve been off Evernote for the last year due to illness and trying to figure out what version to go forward with.

thanks!

 

Don't be put off by all the negativity - the best option for you depends on a number of factors including your hardware, tech ability, network connection(s) and actual use case. 

Various new(ish) users have said the new version is great, and with the latest version iOS users seem happier with that option - although if you use iOS the update is NOT reversible.  With everything else you can try the new version*,  reinstall Legacy on Desktops, or even step back to the last public release if you find v10 too bad.

As always, the best way to decide is to try it out for real.

*on Android you may not be able to do that - the roll out seems rather slow...

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The Android situation is nothing related to EN.

While all iOS devices are tested for downward compatibility, plus receive a solid 5-6 year full OS upgrade, the situation is very mixed on Android. Very few (among them the Pixels) run a clean Android, some are „enriched“, and many come charged up with bloatware from their (Chinese) creators.

Usually nearly all iOS devices that are able to run the new OS get updated within a few weeks. This allows for an equally clean release strategy for apps. With Android, many devices are never upgraded, or only during a brief initial time slot. Probably many devices out there are simply not able to load the new EN client, and others have to wait for their phone manufacturer to release an adapted version of „their“ flavor of Android.

On iOS, it is simple: If your device can and does run iOS 13.2 as a minimum, EN v10 can be loaded and used. I could not make my backup iPhone 6 with iOS 12.5 load any version of EN, not the current and not the older app. So it is easy to find out whether EN on iOS is still for you, if you hold an older iPhone or iPad. With Android, it is probably not that easy to know.

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1 hour ago, gazumped said:

Don't be put off by all the negativity - the best option for you depends on a number of factors including your hardware, tech ability, network connection(s) and actual use case.

Thanks very much for the note. I must say I’m glad to come back and discover folks aren’t arguing about the infamous price increase anymore. 😆

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On 1/9/2021 at 4:07 PM, tavor said:

Tools > Options > Synchronization > Advanced Settings - change attachment download behavior to Manual. Only the attachments you select for download get downloaded to your mobile device.

In Joplin automatic attachement download is one thing, another is that it currently requires COMPLETE sync after new install or after moving your sync to different provider, and by COMPLETE I mean FULL sync, that after any interrupt restarts from very beginning. It may be unnoticeable for few notes, but with few thousands notes means you have to put your phone on charger, disable screen-off and wait a long time; the slower sync medium you choose - the longer.  Dropbox is fast, but WebDAV or NextCloud may be pretty slow. Any interrupt of initial sync (like answering a phone call) mean the sync is restarted from 0. This ensures that there are no conflicts but takes A LOT of time.

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I really wonder how EN is doing economically after this desaster. Are there still many people turning their free membership into premium?

The ratings in the App Stores turned very very bad, so it's very unlikely that we are a small, ignorable bubble that is unsatisfied how the product evolved while the vast majority doesn't care or is even happy.

At the same time I observe that EN started a -40% discount campaign on premium. I don't know if they do that always in January or if its a reaction on a decline in premium sign ups.

 

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It will be hard for EN to do good financially now. Majority of people in the world don't need or use any cross platform note apps. EN user base is long tail, very few users use it heavily where as most users use it very sparingly.

I don't think EN is competing against its competitors like Onenote, Notion but EN is competing against all those who simply think apps like EN is not worth paying for.

Historically EN was good as 2nd brain because one could access all personal notes at work which was indeed beneficial for productivity.

However, this trend has seen 2 big changes.

[1] Many corporate organizations now block cloud notes like EN, ON etc. to prevent data leaking.
[2] People mostly working from home, so they can access their personal data anyway.

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17 minutes ago, Vidalia said:

Majority of people in the world don't need or use any cross platform note apps.

I'm thinking most people use multiple devices (desktop and mobile)
This can be addressed in the cloud, except when offline access is required

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Just a few ideas:

  • Blocking EN is not that easy, because it is a web service. Of course an admin can disallow  all except a whitelist, but in general when port 443 is open, EN should work.
  • Most mobile devices are able to support ENs offline data base for mobile clients. There are few cloud based note apps that can do the same.
  • It is not important whether you are in the home office: The issue is not to have physical access, it is to find it when needed.

IMHO EN is well positioned to thrive in a new, more flexible work setup. They just need to get the v10-transition done. The newest releases are not „there“, but they are steps forward.

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I admit to being puzzled by all the negativity around version 10, but maybe I'm not a power user. I fail to see what the "disaster" is.

  • The tagging feature hasn't changed, and haven't found anything equivalent in another app for Windows 10 - OneNote doesn't even come close. I use Evernote primarily for saving tax-related receipts, and it continues to work well for that. I can scan directly into EN. Again, the tags, and the ability to nest tags is a great feature.
  • The web clipper works beautifully. When I last tried this in OneNote, it was very inferior to EN.
  • The note-taking capability has improved with the introduction of pre-defined headings.

My one complaint: When I scan receipts, I want the creation date to be the date of the receipt, not the date I scanned it. V10 makes it a bit more awkward to change the creation date.

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Hi,

 

this is the first time I write on this blog. I'm using extensively evernote since few years.

I also find the new interface pretty irritating.

It is slow and not reliable, the old one was much more user friendly.

  • tagging was better at the top of the note close to the notebook button
  • the change notebook button is now smaller, every time I have to look for it
  • the sidebar does not report anymore note counts for tags and notebooks, to view note counts it is necessary to access the specific interface for notebooks and tags
  • etc

I could not find one single advantage in the new interface.

I am also considering to change platform

Hope this feedback helps.

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5 hours ago, jlady said:

I admit to being puzzled by all the negativity around version 10, but maybe I'm not a power user. I fail to see what the "disaster" is

Good for you - the only test around here is "whatever works for you" - so ignore the grumbling and enjoy your day!  🙂

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6 hours ago, jlady said:

I admit to being puzzled by all the negativity around version 10, but maybe I'm not a power user. I fail to see what the "disaster" is.

Wow, count yourself lucky. I’m glad the new version 10 is working for you without any issues.

However, there are many people, like myself, who are experiencing major issues, such as lost or corrupted data, or erroneously duplicated data, or broken workflow processes due to significantly reduced functionality (which have been well documented in these forums).

I do like the new version overall and have hope that things will continue to get better.

However I’m struggling right now with the integrity of my data, and therein lies my issue with EN version 10. I have spent a significant number of hours (months and months) collecting and refining my data in EN on a daily basis. I am having trouble with my data being corrupted. For example, the very first version of iOS 10.0 caused over 100 erroneously duplicated records within the first 10 minutes of doing edits after the upgrade, and these were hard to find. EN got this particular issue fixed in the next release (thank goodness), but I still have 4 phantom Notes that cannot be deleted. Now, even with iOS v10.3, I continue to get duplicated records periodically, when only doing edits on a single device. Therefore, I must be very diligent to constantly check my Notes count so I can catch these duplicates in a timely manner as there is no easy way to find them. I also have to keep using the legacy version on my Windows computer so I can easily do daily backups of my data in HTML format so I at least have my data in a human readable format in case I need to recover it.

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The first release of the EN iOS app was not what anybody expected, quite bad.

Regarding the corrupted notes, I had this problem twice, both from a sharing job that went bad. I could get rid of them by doing a "deep" uninstall job: Uninstall the app, dump all data, switch the i-device completely off, switch it on again (Apple logo must show), install the app from the AppStore, log in, let it sync completely. If this still does not do the job, you could try the same, with a forced restart (how to depends on the device you have, see Apple support https://support.apple.com/guide/iphone/force-restart-iphone-iph8903c3ee6/ios ).

After this, I could delete the bad notes on the device where they were stuck, and this deleted them through normal sync on all devices.

Regarding duplicating, I luckily never had that problem. Maybe you need to go through a real uninstall on all devices, to allow the data bases to rebuild from the server. This means on a Mac use the app AppCleaner to really purge the existing EN data. On Windows there are similar tools, like the Revo Uninstaller.

Or decide on desktops to stick with legacy for the moment.

https://help.evernote.com/hc/en-us/articles/360052560314-Install-an-older-version-of-Evernote

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18 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

Regarding the corrupted notes, I had this problem twice, both from a sharing job that went bad. I could get rid of them by doing a "deep" uninstall job: Uninstall the app, dump all data, switch the i-device completely off, switch it on again (Apple logo must show), install the app from the AppStore, log in, let it sync completely. If this still does not do the job, you could try the same, with a forced restart.

Thanks very much for your response. I have already done a “deep” uninstall job on my iPad as you described (delete app+data/i-device completely off with soft reset/wait/back on/install/sync completely). This solved a sync issue I had but the four corrupted Notes are still there. I’m not too concerned about them at this time. I only found them purely by accident when I did a search; they do not show up in a view, only in search results and only on my iOS devices. My main concern is how many other hidden corrupted Notes do I have that I cannot ever hope to find...???

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55 minutes ago, PinkElephant said:

Regarding duplicating, I luckily never had that problem. Maybe you need to go through a real uninstall on all devices, to allow the data bases to rebuild from the server.

The duplicating issue is actually conflict Notes that are being created while doing edits on a single device. For example, I’ll be editing a Note on my iPad. I go in, make some changes, click the save check mark, then the arrow to return to the view. Then I’ll go right back in to the same note, make more changes, then save and return to view. When I go back in for the third time, the note now tells me there is a conflict note, the edit time difference between the two notes is 1 minute. My guess is that the first edit event had not yet synched back to the server when I started the second edit event, so a conflict was generated when the second edit got synced overtop of the first edit. I usually try to make sure the green “needing to be synched” indicator in the corner is gone (by swiping down several times) before going back in to edit, so not sure why this happened. Lesson learned is to wait a few minutes before editing the same note in succession.

BTW, on my Windows desktop, I never did upgrade to v10, so I am still running the original v6.25 with the green icon.

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My 2 corrupted notes (created on different occasions) were deletable after doing the uninstall - cycle. Before I could delete them, but they were back within seconds.

Thanks about the hint about conflicting notes - never had that issue, even when switching between notes while editing. Do you have another device running at the same time, with an open EN client ?

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Version 10 ist in not working as expected. Just two things that hinders me to be productive with this version:

1. check boxes are now list boxes: How clever is this decision from Evernote? - Things are working for years in a certain way. And now it is broken :-(

2. HTML-Desaster: On my MacBook articles are showing as "HTML" and then there aren't any changes possible. - In Windows (where I am not using version 10) everything looks ok.

   Now I am running the "legacy version" on my Mac an still everything is fine.

==> The version 10 (the "*****" version) will I never usee.

By the way: It 's the first time Evernote offers two version at the same time.

This is their way to handle the discontent users

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On 1/10/2021 at 12:03 PM, Piotas said:

In Joplin automatic attachement download is one thing, another is that it currently requires COMPLETE sync after new install or after moving your sync to different provider, and by COMPLETE I mean FULL sync, that after any interrupt restarts from very beginning. It may be unnoticeable for few notes, but with few thousands notes means you have to put your phone on charger, disable screen-off and wait a long time; the slower sync medium you choose - the longer.  Dropbox is fast, but WebDAV or NextCloud may be pretty slow. Any interrupt of initial sync (like answering a phone call) mean the sync is restarted from 0. This ensures that there are no conflicts but takes A LOT of time.

Yeah, new device or new server syncs take a long time and are a hassle for mobile devices. The devs are aware, and are working on a Joplin server (available in pre-release form) that eliminates a lot of the overhead that Webdav uses. Probably not appropriate to post here, but a thread in the Joplin forum shows huge speed improvements in sync speed by eliminating the webdav overhead.

I moved to Drobox from Nextcloud for the sync speed, and am curious to try the Joplin server once they release and package in easy to deploy form for non-techies.

The plugin development pace is great (and has features EN does not - outline view, one-click backlink search and creation, note tabs (I believe EN Mac has tabs, but EN Windows never got this)), so I'm using Joplin for new notes while still having a foot in EN for my old notes and new web clips where Joplin's clipper doesn't get me the desired clip - EN's clipper is probably still best in class.

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1 hour ago, PinkElephant said:

Thanks about the hint about conflicting notes - never had that issue, even when switching between notes while editing. Do you have another device running at the same time, with an open EN client ?

Due to the ongoing issues, I am very conscientious to always shut down the EN client when done with a session. I don’t leave any client running if not using it. I always make sure there is only one device running the client at a time. The most recent conflicts just happened a couple hours ago. For sure the client on my iPad was the only one runnning at that time. As I mentioned, the conflicts happened within 1 minute of editing the doc on a single device, with no other client running. That is why I think it has to do with the fact that since the database is no longer local, the sync is happening in real time over the network back to their server and one edit stepped on the other resulting in the conflict.

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Legacy is not there forever. It will die of old age, or more likely will be killed off one day by OS changes.

While testing v10 issues I got the impression that the server data base is already split in the background. If this is the case, it would be another reason to switch off legacy one day.

So better prepare, either to use a more mature v10, or an alternative.

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2 hours ago, luvmyc6 said:

Due to the ongoing issues, I am very conscientious to always shut down the EN client when done with a session.......

With quite a large number of notes, a bit under 10,000, I've found using Evernote on iOS to be so slow and useless that I've completely abandoned even trying now and I have removed it from my iPhone and iPad completely. Used to work really well but now just useless so I've lost the "portability" of my information that I used to have entirely.

I'm now just running Evernote on an iMac and occasionally using the web so I've taken several huge leaps backwards from where I used to be. As far as I'm concerned if it's not quick and reliable it's useless, it then becomes a toy and a nuisance rather than a reliable tool. I'm hoping things get better but I'm not seeing any sign of them doing so, at the moment I'm just holding station but I've lost a lot of the value of Evernote that I'm paying for. Sad to me that we never seem to see any hard information from the developers about what's happening, unless I've missed something.

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@PinkElephant: "Better be prepared" ... Yes I agree. But the decision of changing behaviour of functions becomes very bad.

The last time I struggled with this, was the new formatting when copying and paste of text (I guess one year ago): Whenever I did this with my E-Mail Code the line spacing is that much that I have to replaced this in Word: (^p with ^l) to copy this in Evernote.

This "list box"-desaster is just another step to ruin my belief in Evernote.  

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On 1/11/2021 at 4:26 PM, kthesun said:

At the same time I observe that EN started a -40% discount campaign on premium. I don't know if they do that always in January or if its a reaction on a decline in premium sign ups.

 

I have no problem with Evenote using aggresive marketing strategy to gain new type of causal user, but I find it funny / not professional that they were advertising Evenote to Polish users in Polish after v10 premiere, while V10 is USELESS / NOT READY for Polish market due to conflict of hardcoded key bindings with default PL-PL keyboard.

You may think twice before you start advertising a product that is useless for a certain market and ALL you can get is complaints and user frustration.

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@QFieldBoden For me the iOS client does work ok, just a small delay on opening the app (less than 10sec). On the iPad Air 2 of my wife it is slower, appr. 20sec until open, which is too long. But ok, this is old hardware, nearly end-of-life (still could update to iOS 14, but I think that is it now).

EN has announced a widget and the return of the Apple Watch App. Then it would not be necessary to first open the app to grab a quick note. 

What sort of iMac, and on which MacOS ? I have no problem running both legacy & v10.4.7 in parallel on my Mac (MBP 15“, BigSur).

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